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diff --git a/44011-0.txt b/44011-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..bfb540e --- /dev/null +++ b/44011-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,46438 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44011 *** + +Transcriber's note: Stylized "U" is denoted as =U=. Italics are +represented by _underscores_. + + + + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ XI + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + + [A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission + and the Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XI: +John Edward Pic, Lee Harvey Oswald's halfbrother; Edward John Pic, +Jr., John Edward Pic's father; Kerry Wendell Thornley, a Marine Corps +acquaintance of Oswald; George B. Church, Jr., Mrs. George B. Church, +Jr., and Billy Joe Lord, who were on the boat Oswald took when he left +the United States for Russia; Alexander Kleinlerer, Mrs. Donald Gibson, +Ruth Hyde Paine, Michael Ralph Paine, and Gary Taylor, who became +acquainted with Oswald and his wife after their return to Texas in +1962; M. Waldo George, the Oswald's landlord at Neely Street in Dallas; +William Kirk Stuckey, who gave testimony relating to Oswald's political +views; Horace Elroy Twiford and Estelle Twiford, who gave testimony +relating to the date and route of Oswald's trip to Mexico in 1963; +Virginia H. James, James D. Crowley, James L. Ritchie, and Carroll +Hamilton Seeley, Jr., of the U.S. State Department; Louis Feldsott, +who gave testimony relating to the purchase of the C2766 rifle; J. +Philip Lux and Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., employees of sporting-goods +stores in Dallas; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the +assassination scene; Louis Weinstock, an official of the Communist +Party, Vincent T. Lee, an official of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, +and Farrell Dobbs, an official of the Socialist Workers Party, who +testified concerning contacts Oswald had with their groups; Virginia +Gray, who gave testimony concerning a letter written by Oswald; +Albert F. Staples, who gave testimony concerning records relating to +Marina Oswald; Katherine Mallory, Monica Kramer, and Rita Naman, who +encountered Oswald while touring Russia in 1961; John Bryan McFarland, +Meryl McFarland, and Pamela Mumford, who were on the bus Oswald took to +Mexico in the fall of 1963; Dial Duwayne Ryder, Hunter Schmidt, Jr., +Charles W. Greener, Gertrude Hunter, Edith Whitworth, James Lehrer, and +Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, who gave testimony concerning an allegation +that Oswald had taken a rifle to a gun-repair shop in Dallas; Eugene D. +Anderson and James A. Zahm, of the U.S. Marine Corps, experts on the +subject of marksmanship; C. A. Hamblen, Robert Gene Fenley, and Aubrey +Lee Lewis, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that Oswald was +sending and receiving telegrams through a Dallas Western Union office; +Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., Evaristo Rodriguez, Orest Pena, Ruperto Pena, +and Sylvia Odio, who testified concerning contacts they believed they +had with Oswald in New Orleans and Dallas under various circumstances; +Edwin A. Walker, who testified concerning an attempt on his life on +April 10, 1963, and his attorney, Clyde J. Watts; Ivan D. Lee, an +agent of the FBI, who gave testimony regarding photographs which he +took of General Walker's residence; Bernard Weissman, who paid for an +advertisement concerning President Kennedy which appeared in a Dallas +newspaper on November 22, 1963; Warren Allen Reynolds, who was present +in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, +who interviewed Oswald in Moscow; Eric Rogers, who lived in the same +building as Oswald and his wife in New Orleans in 1963; Bardwell D. +Odum, James R. Malley, and Richard Helms, who testified concerning +a photograph which was shown to Marguerite Oswald for purposes of +identification; Peter Megargee Brown, who testified concerning records +relating to Oswald when he lived in New York during his youth; Francis +J. Martello of the New Orleans Police Department, who interrogated +Oswald in August 1963; John Corporon, an official of a New Orleans +broadcasting station; Mrs. J. V. Allen, who testified concerning the +schooling of Oswald's brothers; Lillian Murret, Oswald's aunt; and John +W. Burcham, Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr., Hilda L. Smith, J. Rachal, Bobb +Hunley, Robert J. Creel, Helen P. Cunningham, Theodore Frank Gangl, +Gene Graves, and Robert L. Adams, who testified concerning Oswald's +employment history. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + John Edward Pic 1 + Edward John Pic, Jr 82 + Kerry Wendell Thornley 82 + George B. Church, Jr 115 + Mrs. George B. Church, Jr 116 + Billy Joe Lord 117 + Alexander Kleinlerer 118 + Mrs. Donald Gibson 123 + Ruth Hyde Paine 153, 389 + M. Waldo George 155 + William Kirk Stuckey 156 + Horace Elroy Twiford 179 + Estelle Twiford 179 + Virginia H. James 180 + James L. Ritchie 191 + Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr 193 + Louis Feldsott 205 + J. Philip Lux 206 + Howard Leslie Brennan 206 + Albert C. Yeargan, Jr 207 + Louis Weinstock 207 + Vincent T. Lee 208 + Farrell Dobbs 208 + Virginia Gray 209 + Albert F. Staples 210 + Katherine Mallory 210 + Monica Kramer 212 + Rita Naman 213 + John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland 214 + Pamela Mumford 215 + Dial Duwayne Ryder 224 + Hunter Schmidt, Jr 240 + Charles W. Greener 245 + Gertrude Hunter 253 + Edith Whitworth 262 + Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and + Gertrude Hunter 275 + Eugene D. Anderson 301 + James A. Zahm 306 + C. A. Hamblen 311 + Robert Gene Fenley 314 + Aubrey Lee Lewis 318 + Dean Adams Andrews, Jr 325 + Evaristo Rodriguez 339 + Orest Pena 346 + Ruperto Pena 364 + Sylvia Odio 367 + Michael Ralph Paine 398 + Edwin A. Walker and Clyde J. Watts 404 + Bernard Weissman 428 + Warren Allen Reynolds 434 + Priscilla Mary Post Johnson 442 + Eric Rogers 460 + James Lehrer 464 + Bardwell D. Odum 468 + James R. Malley 468 + Richard Helms 469 + Peter Megargee Brown 470 + Gary Taylor 470 + Francis L. Martello 471 + John Corporon 471 + Mrs. J. V. Allen 472 + Lillian Murret 472 + John W. Burcham 473 + Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr 473 + Hilda L. Smith 474 + J. Rachal 474 + Bobb Hunley 476 + Robert J. Creel 477 + Helen P. Cunningham 477 + Theodore Frank Gangl 478 + Gene Graves 479 + Robert L. Adams 480 + Ivan D. Lee 481 + James D. Crowley 482 + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Page + Allen Exhibit No.: + 1 472 + 2 472 + 3 472 + 4 472 + 5 472 + 6 472 + 7 472 + 8 472 + 9 472 + 10 472 + 11 472 + 12 472 + 13 472 + 14 472 + 15 472 + Anderson Exhibit No. 1 303 + Brown Exhibit No. 1 470 + Burcham Exhibit No.: + 1 473 + 2 473 + 3 473 + Creel Exhibit No.: + 1 477 + 2 477 + 3 477 + 4 477 + 5 477 + 6 477 + 7 477 + 8 477 + Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 477 + + Gangl Exhibit No. 1 479 + Graves Exhibit No. 1 479 + Gray Exhibit No. 1 210 + Greener Exhibit No.: + 1 246 + 2 247 + 3 251 + 4 251 + Hunley Exhibit No.: + 1 476 + 2 476 + 3 476 + 4 476 + 5 476 + 6 476 + 7 476 + James Exhibit No.: + 1 181 + 2 186 + 3 187 + 3-A 187 + 4 188 + 5 188 + 6 189 + 7 189 + 8 189 + 9 189 + 10 190 + 11 190 + Johnson Exhibit No.: + 1 442 + 2 442 + 3 443 + 4 443 + 5 443 + 6 443 + Kramer Exhibit No.: + 1 212 + 2 213 + Lee Exhibit: + A 482 + B 482 + Lewis Exhibit No. 1 323 + Murret Exhibit No. 1 472 + Odio Exhibit No. 1 373 + Odum Exhibit No. 1 468 + Pena Exhibit No. 1 359 + Pic Exhibit No.: + 1 5 + 2 13 + 2-A 15 + 3 14 + 4 15 + 5 15 + 6 66 + 6-A 66 + 7 66 + 7-A 66 + 8 66 + 8-A 66 + 9 66 + 9-A 66 + 10 66 + 10-A 66 + 10-B 66 + 11 66 + 11-A 66 + 12 66 + 12-A 66 + 13 66 + 13-A 66 + 14 66 + 15 66 + 16 66 + 16-A 66 + 17 66 + 17-A 66 + 18 66 + 18-A 66 + 19 66 + 19-A 66 + 20 66 + 20-A 66 + 20-B 66 + 21 67 + 21-A 67 + 22 67 + 23 67 + 23-A 67 + 24 67 + 24-A 67 + 25 67 + 25-A 67 + 26 67 + 26-A 67 + 27 69 + 27-A 69 + 27-B 69 + 28-A 69 + 28-B 69 + 29-A 69 + 29-B 69 + 29-C 69 + 30-A 69 + 30-B 69 + 31-A 69 + 31-B 69 + 32-A 69 + 32-B 70 + 33-A 70 + 33-B 70 + 34 70 + 35-A 70 + 35-B 70 + 36-A 70 + 36-B 70 + 37-A 71 + 37-B 71 + 38-A 71 + 38-B 71 + 39-A 71 + 39-B 71 + 40-A 71 + 40-B 71 + 41-A 71 + 41-B 71 + 42-A 71 + 42-B 71 + 43-A 71 + 43-B 71 + 44-A 71 + 44-B 71 + 45-A 71 + 45-B 71 + 46-A 71 + 46-B 71 + 47-A 71 + 47-B 71 + 48 35 + 49 35 + 50 29 + 51 29 + 52 28 + 53 28 + 54 30 + 55 30 + 56 36 + 57 36 + 58 36 + 59 35 + 60 60 + Rachal Exhibit No.: + 1 475 + 2 476 + 3 476 + Rogers Exhibit No. 1 463 + Seeley Exhibit No.: + 1 195 + 2 196 + 3 198 + 4 199 + 5 199 + 6 200 + 7 201 + Smith Exhibit No. 1 474 + Staples Exhibit No. 1 210 + Stuckey Exhibit No.: + 1 161 + 2 163 + 3 169 + 4 177 + Thornley Exhibit No.: + 1 112 + 2 113 + 3 114 + Twiford Exhibit No. 1 179 + Walker Exhibit No.: + 1 408 + 2 409 + 3 411 + 4 411 + Weinstock Exhibit No. 1 207 + Weissman Exhibit No. 1 429 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC + +The testimony of John Edward Pic was taken at 10:25 a.m., on May +15, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +John Hart Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Sergeant Pic, do you swear in your testimony you are about +to give that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. State your full name, please. + +Mr. PIC. Staff Sergeant John Edward Pic, sir, U.S. Air Force. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Pic is spelled P-i-c-? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your home address. + +Mr. PIC. 7306 Westville, San Antonio, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a married man? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, +children, if any, ages and names and where born. + +Mr. PIC. My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest +is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 +October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. Your wife Margaret is--she was born where? + +Mr. PIC. New York City, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Her parents are native Americans as well as she? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; they are not. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you know of them? + +Mr. PIC. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going +together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in +Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you understand as to when they came to this country? + +Mr. PIC. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I +have forgotten. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her +forties, I am pretty sure. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her +mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were at that time in the service? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard +Cutter _Rockaway_. + +Mr. JENNER. How old is Mrs. Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Thirty, sir. She turned 30 the 21st of December. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She was born December 21, 1933? + +Mr. PIC. It may be 22, sir; I never remember. I am giving sworn +testimony, I don't want to lie about my wife's birthday; it is either +the 21st or 22d, I am pretty sure it is the 21st. + +Mr. JENNER. You are stationed where at present? + +Mr. PIC. I am attached to Wilford Hall, USAF Hospital, Lackland Air +Force Base, San Antonio, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you--what is your particular assignment? + +Mr. PIC. I am NCOIC, Special Procedures Branch, Department of +Pathology, Wilford Hall Hospital. I have had this job since the 10th of +February this year, and my other ones, I had another job when I talked +to the Secret Service if you would be interested in that. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you been at Lackland? + +Mr. PIC. I have been there since August 1962, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. My information is you were born in New Orleans on January +17, 1932? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered the Coast Guard. + +Mr. PIC. It was either 25 or 26 January 1950, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were then 18 years of age? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was where? + +Mr. PIC. I processed my enlistment in Fort Worth. I was sworn into the +Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well if we had your service history +all in one spot so you go ahead and for my benefit speak a little more +slowly so I can absorb it. + +Mr. PIC. All right, sir. Approximately 26 January 1950, enlisted in +Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.; from January 1950 until May 1950, I was +in boot camp at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Cape May, N.J. In +May 1950 until January 1951, I was attached to U.S. Coast Guard cutter +_Rockaway_. January 1951 until approximately June 1951 was stationed at +U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Groton, Conn. From June 1951 until +January 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Base, St. George, +Staten Island, N.Y. From January 1952 until April 1952, I was stationed +at U.S. Naval Training Station, Bainbridge, Md. April 1952 until +February 1953, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard PSU, which is Port +Security Unit, Ellis Island, N.Y. February 1953 until September 1953, I +was stationed aboard the U.S. Coast Guard cutter _Firebush_. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you at sea? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. It was really a +buoy tender. + +Mr. JENNER. In what area? + +Mr. PIC. New York area, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you on ship all the time during that period? + +Mr. PIC. We would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am really getting at is when you were ashore were +you home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I went home the minute I got off the ship. + +Mr. JENNER. OK. + +Mr. PIC. September 1953 until April 1954--these months I am pretty +sure, I am certain are OK. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all right. + +Mr. PIC. I was stationed at U.S. Naval Hospital, Portsmouth, Va. +My address when I lived there was, for 3 months we lived with my +sister-in-law in Norfolk. + +Mr. JENNER. Name her, please. + +Mr. PIC. Mrs. Emma Parrish, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your wife's sister? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Then in January of 1954 we moved over to +Portsmouth, Va., 1234 Holliday Street. + +April 1954 for about 2, 3 weeks, I was then stationed again at St. +George, Staten Island, and I received orders through the Coast Guard +cutter _Halfmoon_, and I was on the Coast Guard cutter _Halfmoon_ until +January 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. And at sea or---- + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty. + +Mr. JENNER. You did come ashore when you got home? + +Mr. PIC. We pulled weather patrol, sir. We would be out 5 or 6 weeks +and we would be in 5 or 6 weeks; and this I tolerated for 21 months. +On 1 February 1956, I joined the Air Force. I joined the Air Force on +Staten Island, N.Y. My address at this time was 80 St. Marks Place, +Staten Island, N.Y. + +Mr. JENNER. In a few words, what was that transition. Had you +appeared---- + +Mr. PIC. My enlistment from the Coast Guard was complete, sir, and I +decided that staying in the Coast Guard for 20 or some odd years I +wouldn't see much of my family and I understood the Air Force was a +family man's outfit and I figured that was for me. So the day after I +got out of the Coast Guard I joined the Air Force--no broken service. I +was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, Hempstead, Long Island, N.Y., +until October, end of September, October 1958, and received orders to +Japan, APO 323, Tachikawa, Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. What year were you in? + +Mr. PIC. 1958 when I received my orders. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time when you were assigned to Japan, that was the +period of time also when your brother Lee Oswald, then in the Marines, +was also stationed in Japan? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in +Japan? + +Mr. PIC. When I received my orders, I was under the impression he was +in Korea, sir. I knew he was overseas in the Japanese-Korean area. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any communication from him prior to your going +to Japan? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge, sir, sometime after he entered +the service and went overseas I received a letter from him, very short +note. He wrote a very short note. I no longer have this. + +Mr. JENNER. He entered the service in October of 1956? + +Mr. PIC. I was in the Air Force at Mitchel Air Force Base at the time. +Do you want me to finish with my military dates, and then I can go back? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. November 1958, 10 November 1958 until 17 July, 1962, I was +stationed in Japan. In August 1962 until the present date assigned to +Lackland, Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base. + +Now, in the time period from--my mother paid us a Christmas visit, sir, +during the Christmas holidays of 1957, I believe, after Lee had joined +the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a +year and 2 months after he had joined the Marine Corps. + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you at that time? + +Mr. PIC. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, sir, and I believe +my address was 105 Avenue C, East Meadow, Long Island. I was living +right next to the Air Force base. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, +that Lee had entered the service? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I knew this. + +Mr. JENNER. Had enlisted in the Marines? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And how had you learned that, through your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; through my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you learned that at or about the time he actually +enlisted? What were the circumstances? + +Mr. PIC. Concerning what, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. His enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He +enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old. + +Mr. PIC. My mother told me some way or another, I don't remember, sir. +This is how I learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or +some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the +age. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Why did you know he would do it and tell us +the circumstances upon which you, the facts upon which you base that +observation? + +Mr. PIC. He did it for the same reasons that I did it and Robert did +it, I assume, to get from out and under. + +Mr. JENNER. Out and under what? + +Mr. PIC. The yoke of oppression from my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Had that been a matter of discussion between you and for +example, between you and your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was just something we understood about and never +discussed. + +Mr. JENNER. And that would include Lee as well as your brother Robert; +that is, you were all aware of it? + +Mr. PIC. I know this includes my brother Robert. Of course, when I was +18 years old I didn't discuss things like this with Lee, who was much +younger. + +Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. You made a general statement---- + +Mr. PIC. OK. + +Mr. JENNER. Which lawyers would call a mixed matter of conclusion and +of fact and we would like to know the circumstances in general. + +Mr. PIC. OK. + +Mr. JENNER. They would probably go back for a good many years and it +involves a personality. + +Mr. PIC. Well, why don't I start with the death of Lee's father, and I +think really starting there I can tell you more of my own feelings and +so forth. I can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances I +think I should go back a little further. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I will come back to this eventually. I will +start you off this way. You are the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are also the brother of Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee Edward Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice in your statements that you refer to him as Robert +Lee Edward Oswald. There are some references by others to Robert E. Lee +Oswald. + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and +by witnesses as Lee Oswald. What was his full name? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it was Robert Lee Edward +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event your brother Robert was a junior. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother Robert was born April 7, 1934; is that to the +best of your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee Harvey Oswald, October 18, 1939? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, air. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father's name? + +Mr. PIC. Edward John Pic, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You are named after him except---- + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The two surnames were reversed? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir; I think it +appears on here. Yes, sir. John Pic, Jr., in fact his name is---- + +Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic, Jr. + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother was Marguerite Claverie Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. Claverie, Marguerite Frances. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother and father were married what date? + +Mr. PIC. Eighth day of August 1929, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are now reading from what? + +Mr. PIC. The marriage certificate of Edward John Pic, Jr., and Mrs. +Marguerite Frances Claverie. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your +personal papers? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to put an exhibit number on it. We will take a +photograph of it and return the original to you. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that as John Pic Exhibit No. 1. + +(John Pic Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as John Pic Exhibit No. 1, a marriage +certificate certified and dated August 8, 1929, reflecting the marriage +of Edward John Pic, Jr. and Miss Marguerite Frances Claverie on the 1st +day of August 1929, in Harrison County, Miss. The marriage certificate +does not show the town. + +Sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father? + +Mr. PIC. My own father? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir, I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of ever having seen your +father? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. You were too young at the time but you eventually became +aware of the fact that your mother, Marguerite, and your father, +Edward, were divorced not long after your birth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of +your birth that your father and mother were separated? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the first information, I take it, then, in the +utterance I have just made? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That you have become aware that your mother and your father +were separated at the time of your birth? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You did learn about that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From your mother? + +Mr. PIC. From Life magazine, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Well, that is what I was really getting at. + +Mr. PIC. O.K. + +Mr. JENNER. It was only in the last 6 or 8 months that you learned that +at the time of your birth your mother and your father were separated? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. I had always been told that they were +divorced because he didn't want children. I didn't know anything else +but that. I didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepfather, when your mother and your stepfather--I +will call him Lee Oswald because all the witnesses have referred to him +as Lee Oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection +of it? + +Mr. PIC. I remember him being referred to as Mr. Oswald, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection at the time, at least--that +is an inelegant question. Do you recall your mother then marrying Lee +Oswald or Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. I knew they were married, I don't recall the marriage ceremony. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you recall about him, sergeant? + +Mr. PIC. I recall he was an insurance salesman, sir, for the +Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. He used to take me on his rounds for +collections sometimes. He was very strict with us. We got whippings +when we were bad. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. Not in the least. + +Mr. JENNER. I should say this to you, I think. The witnesses all, +everybody spoke well of your stepfather. + +Mr. PIC. That is how I remember him, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were born in New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. I was? + +Mr. JENNER. I am really putting a question mark at the end. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was born at New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And the family lived in New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of +your father, not your stepfather but your---- + +Mr. PIC. My real father? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; or occupation? + +Mr. PIC. From what I was told he was a stevedore and had once been a +professional basketball player. This is all I remember ever hearing +about him. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was information that came from primarily your +mother? + +Mr. PIC. From my mother; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As a boy as you grew up in New Orleans were you advised +whether your father was alive, whether he was in New Orleans or where +he was or anything about him in that connection? + +Mr. PIC. Being the nosy child I was, every once in a while I would look +him up in the phone book so I knew he existed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiries to find out what his business +was or occupation? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be +working or living to see what he looked like? + +Mr. PIC. I thought of it several times but I never made an attempt. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. I do remember on several occasions when we would +visit the Lillian Murrets the name would come up that he had visited +them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this +cropped up it made me more inquisitive. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Lillian Murret, that is your aunt, your +mother's sister? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And her husband is Charles "Dutz" Murret? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In those early years, did your family reside somewhere near +the Murrets? I am going to get into all those addresses if I can, but I +am thinking of the overall relationship geographically. + +Mr. PIC. As I recollect, the house was where Mr. Oswald died, all I +know is that it was on the corner of Alvez and Galvez. + +Mr. JENNER. 2109 Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. There you go. I think the street that ran next to it was +Galvez. + +Mr. JENNER. You are correct. + +Mr. PIC. This is the first real--I remember a first real house prior to +this, where it was, sir, I don't know. I was about 5 at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. But the first one you remember is the house on the corner +that you have mentioned? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? 2205 +Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. It may be the address of the house on Alvez and Galvez, I +don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. No? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 2123 Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 1661 Paul Morphy? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 2132 Gallier? + +Mr. PIC. The name, the streets sound--I may have heard it before. + +Mr. JENNER. 1917 Gallier? + +Mr. PIC. Only the street sounds familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. 805 Greenwood? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 220 North--my pronunciation will be bad--Telemachus. + +Mr. PIC. No. + +Mr. JENNER. 123 South Cortez? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had to get away yesterday before a letter arrived +which is at your base now, from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the +Commission, confirming arrangements for you to appear and have your +deposition taken before the Commission, and enclosing with that letter +copies of the legislation being Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 +authorizing the creation of the Commission, and a copy of President +Johnson's Executive Orders bringing the Commission into existence No. +11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission itself +for the taking of depositions. + +When you return to Lackland base you will find that letter probably in +the possession of your Commanding Officer, and he will deliver it to +you. + +The Commission was authorized by the resolution I have mentioned and +brought into existence by the President to investigate the facts +and circumstances involved in and surrounding the assassination of +President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and we have understood from +witnesses and other information we have, that you had and still have +information bearing upon the facts and circumstances relative to that +assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed +toward that. + +We appreciate your appearing voluntarily from Lackland base to appear +here today. + +That letter, and the enclosures state that you are entitled to counsel +if you want counsel present, and if you desire to have counsel present +I can suspend this now. + +Mr. PIC. I have nothing to hide, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, John. + +Mr. ELY. I just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. +914 Hennesey, do you remember that? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. ELY. What about Taft Place? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You attended William Frantz Elementary School in Dallas, +did you not? + +Mr. PIC. New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. With your brother, Robert? + +Mr. PIC. What grade was I in, sir. He was two grades behind me. If I +was in the third, he was there. If I wasn't, he wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the record shows you enrolled in William Frantz +School at 3811 North Galvez on the 16th of September 1936 at which time +you were 4-1/2 years old. + +Mr. PIC. Well, he wouldn't be there. + +Mr. JENNER. Not at that time. He was then 2-1/2. + +Do you recall transferring from William Frantz Elementary School to +George Washington Elementary School? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that some time in late September or in November, +perhaps of 1940. + +Mr. PIC. Well, prior to that we went to another place, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your first elementary school was William Frantz? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you attended William Frantz until when, to the best of +your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. I don't think I attended William Frantz after---- + +Mr. JENNER. The death of your stepfather? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; somewhere around there. We went to a boarding school +over in Gretna, La. Infant Jesus College was the name of it, I believe, +both Robert and I, and we hated the place. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a very short period of time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we hated the place. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. + +Mr. PIC. I don't know whether it was before Washington or after. I +think it was before Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection this way. Your +stepfather died in August of 1939. You were then living in the house at +the corner of Alvar and Galvez which you recall as Alvez and Galvez. + +Do you recall that some months after the death of your father and in +the following year, the late winter or early spring, that you moved +from that house? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a physician by the name of Mancuso? + +Mr. PIC. It may or may not be familiar, sir. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. He was the doctor who delivered Lee, and also the man who +rented the house in which you had been living. Do you recall that? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall leaving that house in which you had been +living at the time of the death of your stepfather? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; sometime afterward. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a +matter of years? + +Mr. PIC. It had to be months, sir, because I have got something else +for 1940 here. + +Mr. JENNER. When you moved from the house in which you had been living +at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to +1242 Congress Street? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. I remember moving to a Bartholomew Street. + +Mr. JENNER. That Bartholomew Street, I will get to that in a moment, +perhaps to refresh your recollection was a little house that your +mother purchased on contract. + +Mr. PIC. What, Bartholomew? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. I remember that house. + +Mr. JENNER. 1010 Bartholomew. + +Mr. PIC. That could be it, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you moved to 1010 Bartholomew you lived, did you +not, at 1242 Congress? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother didn't sell the Alvar Street house until +January of 1944. + +Mr. PIC. I thought it was sold the day we moved out. + +Mr. JENNER. It was rented by Dr. Mancuso the day you moved out, and +ultimately your mother regained possession in January 1944, and he then +purchased that house substantially contemporaneously, in January of +1944. + +Mr. PIC. Can I ask you a question? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. PIC. Being Mr. Oswald was in the insurance business, and being I +was rather young, how did he leave her, I have no idea. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I will answer that question. You tell me what you +thought at the time and what your impression now is. + +Mr. PIC. Well, he didn't leave her much is what I was told. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the feeling you had at the time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he did leave a small insurance policy, and the house +on Alvar, on the corner of Alvar and Galvez, which was being purchased +under contract, and that is about all. + +I take it, it is your recollection, Sergeant, that when you and your +mother and Robert and Lee, who was then an infant child, just a few +months old, left the house on 2109 Alvar you entered some institution. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is your recollection of that institution? + +Mr. PIC. I believe it was in Gretna, La. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that for the reporter. + +Mr. PIC. G-r-e-t-n-a, a whole bunch of little towns right across the +river from New Orleans, West Wego, and a couple of others, that was one +of these, I think it was Gretna, it might be in one of that group. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. And the name of the school was Infant Jesus College and it was +a Catholic school, sir. And us not being Catholics they lowered the +boom on us. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be you and your brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were at that time just about 8 years old. Was it +before your 8th birthday or what? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It was in 1940, however? + +Mr. PIC. I thought it was in the end of 1939. It is either the end of +1939 or early 1940. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that---- + +Mr. PIC. We were still living on Alvez and Galvez when we went to that +school. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. That is what I wanted to straighten out. + +Your mother put you and Robert in the Catholic boarding school before +the family actually moved out of the 2109 Alvar home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. How long were you boys at that Catholic +institution? + +Mr. PIC. My best recollection is that it was to the end of the school +year, 1940. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be the summer of 1940? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Your mother was not working at that time, was +she? + +Mr. PIC. As far as I know; no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to why you were placed in that +institution inasmuch as your mother was not working, and at that time +you were still living or she was, with Lee at 2109 Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. My impression then, sir; I don't know, I can give you my +impressions now---- + +Mr. JENNER. Are these impressions that you are about to give me and +I do want you to give them to me, gathered from recollection of the +course of events over a period of years? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Based on discussions in the family over a period +of years? + +Mr. PIC. Based mainly on experiences in contact with my mother over a +period of years, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; tell us about them. + +Mr. PIC. I think it was probably because it was cheaper to maintain +Robert and I over at this school than it was to maintain us at home. I +mean we boarded there, they fed us, went to school. I don't know what +the fee was but this was the impression I have now. + +Mr. JENNER. While you boys were at the Catholic school, did your mother +and Lee leave, if you have a recollection of this, the 2109 Alvar home? +This would be sometime between the first of January 1940, and the time +you finished the second semester, let us say. + +Mr. PIC. If this house between Alvez and Bartholomew is a green house. + +Mr. JENNER. Green? + +Mr. PIC. Green, I can remember it. You can tell me if it was green, I +don't know, sir. I remember a green house somewhere in this time period. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me get at that this way. You and Robert were lodged +eventually in the Bethlehem---- + +Mr. PIC. Bethlehem Orphans Home, somewhere on St. Peters Street, New +Orleans. I think this was in 1942, though, this happened. + +Mr. JENNER. Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum. + +Mr. PIC. Right. That is the name. + +Mr. JENNER. Known as the Bethlehem Children's Home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And--all right, now, you entered there on the 3d of January +1942. Is that your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. That is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. The winter of 1942? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I know it was a little bit after the war was +declared. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, taking that date, January 1942, and going +back---- + +Mr. PIC. OK. + +Mr. JENNER. To the end of the school year in 1940---- + +Mr. PIC. Well, the school in September 1940--I think I put in about +a year and a half in this Washington Elementary School after we were +taken out of Infant Jesus College. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time didn't you live at 1242 Congress Street in New +Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, if you have a map of New Orleans and show me where this +is maybe I can remember, but I don't remember anything but Bartholomew. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purposes of refreshing your recollection the +records of the public school system of New Orleans reflect the +following: that you were enrolled at William Frantz School located at +3811 North Galvez when you were 4-1/2 years old on September 16, 1936. +You continued there thereafter until September 5, 1940. + +Mr. PIC. September 1940. + +Mr. JENNER. These records would show that you were discharged from the +William Frantz Elementary School on January 2, 1940. + +Mr. PIC. That is better. + +Mr. JENNER. And that you reentered William Frantz on September 5, 1940, +and you transferred to George Washington Elementary School on November +12, 1940. + +At the time of the transfer you lived at 1242 Congress Street. Your +mother purchased the house at 1010 Bartholomew on the 5th of March +1941. And she sold it on the 16th of January 1942. + +With that information, does that serve to refresh your recollection +that the course of circumstances might have been these. I will state +them and then you correct me. I don't want you to take my word for it +but this is solely for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, if +it does refresh your recollection. + +Your stepfather died in August of 1939. In the winter of 1940, early, +sometime in January 1940, your mother took you and your brother, +Robert, out of school, you were in the William Frantz Elementary School +at that time, and placed you in the Catholic school. + +Mr. PIC. I think prior or right after this Catholic school there was +another school which was in downtown New Orleans. It was a day school. +She would bring us there in the morning and take us home at night. I +don't remember too much. We didn't stay there very long. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your definite recollection, however, that you were +at the Catholic orphanage school in the winter of 1940, which would be +approximately 5 months after the death of your stepfather. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement +that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College +School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, +sir, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the best of your recollection at the present time +that that was the school period ending in the summer of 1940? + +Mr. PIC. I think so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the school you attended +commencing the school year September 1940? Did you return to William +Frantz? + +Mr. PIC. I went to George Washington--if I was there at William Frantz, +I don't remember. Well, the dates you give me it would be---- + +Mr. JENNER. A short time? + +Mr. PIC. Right. I remember George Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you living at home at that time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that 1242 Congress? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would a map of New Orleans help you any? + +Mr. PIC. Possible; I don't remember this Congress, I remember a green +house, this was a green house I remember. What street it was on, I +don't know. But I do remember something about a green house. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in the French quarter, in the old city? + +Mr. PIC. The way I remember the French quarter is down in here +somewhere, and this is certainly not the French quarter. Here is this +Gretna. It may be in Algiers that Infant Jesus, one of these two, +either Gretna or Algiers. I think it was Gretna. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother said it was Algiers, and there is evidence that +it was located in Algiers. + +Mr. PIC. OK, sir; Algiers. I know it was across the river. + +Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection, however, of living in a house +on Bartholomew? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to remember, you don't remember now the exact +address? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It was at 1010 Bartholomew. Did you live in the 1010 +Bartholomew house? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it before or during, or when was it with respect to +when you and Robert entered the Bethlehem Orphanage? + +Mr. PIC. We was living there when I went to Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. George Washington Elementary School at 3810 St. Cloud? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Our records show your mother purchased the 1010 Bartholomew +property in March of 1941, March 9 to be exact. + +Mr. PIC. When I was at Infant Jesus College, I couldn't very well +remember that Congress Street because I probably--we wasn't living +there. + +Mr. JENNER. You weren't living---- + +Mr. PIC. At home. + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Mr. PIC. So, I am afraid I can't remember that Congress Street address. +I remember a green house. + +Mr. JENNER. A green house. + +Mr. PIC. Yes; that is about the best I can do. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event it was a house different from or other than +the 2109 Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you were living at the time of the death of your +stepfather? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is good enough. You remember being with your brother +Robert in the Bethlehem Orphanage? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your initial utterance voluntarily was that you entered +there in 1942. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was right after the war. + +Mr. JENNER. The records show that it was in the month of January +1942. You were then 10 years old so you might have some reasonable +recollection of it. Tell us the circumstances and what you understand +about it. + +Mr. PIC. Well, while we lived on this Bartholomew Street my mother +opened in the front room a little store called Oswald's Notion Shop. I +think she sold spools of thread and needles and things like this. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she sell any sweets or candy for children? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I remember we used to go in there and swipe it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time other than managing or +operating this little notions and sweet shop? + +Mr. PIC. Not that I remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was in a segment of the home at 1010 Bartholomew? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was the very front room. + +Mr. JENNER. And you boys were then attending school where? + +Mr. PIC. Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. When I say you boys, it is your brother Robert and yourself. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure Robert was attending school then. It was +Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Your brother Robert entered grammar school on +September 8, 1938. That was William Frantz so he was of school age at +the time we are talking about. + +Describe that little house to us on Bartholomew. Was it a new house? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; it wasn't new. I guess it had about a minimum of two +bedrooms, rather large back yard. We had a dog, and the dog's name was +Sunshine. There was a fence ran down it. I remember the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a nice neighborhood? + +Mr. PIC. It wasn't as nice as Alvez and Galvez. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time. I see. Now, you lead me to ask something I +should have asked heretofore, tell me about the neighborhood at 2109 +Alvar. What do you recall about that? + +Mr. PIC. They were all brand new houses. In fact, I think we were the +first ones to move in on the street, and most of the other ones were +under construction there. William Frantz was building a new school. It +was a rather nice neighborhood. Middle income, I guess, at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And the 1010 Bartholomew home was not as new and the +neighborhood was not quite the same as at 2109 Alvar, but what kind +of a neighborhood was it? Was it a reasonably nice place, area? You +describe it. Don't ever let me put words in your mouth. + +Mr. PIC. Well, digging back in my sociology courses, I would say it was +upper-lower class, if there is such a classification. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any neighbors at 1010 Bartholomew? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; there was a milkman, his name was Bud. Right on the +other corner from Bartholomew, on St. Cloud was a theater, I think was +called the Nola, and he lived behind this theater, he was our milkman, +and my mother and his wife and him were rather friendly, and we used to +go on trips on the weekends to the parks and things like this. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I ask you again what you recall to have been the +circumstances under which you entered the Bethlehem Orphanage, you and +your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. I can only give you impressions, I have now, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are these impressions that you gained now, gained from an +attempt to refresh your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As to the circumstances at that time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. I think properly the notion store wasn't a booming business, +and she had to go to work and since we were reminded we were orphans +all the time, the right place to be would be in an orphan home. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing. Would you elaborate on that, please? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that +she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a +notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and I remember +she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered +Bethlehem. + +Mr. JENNER. In January 1942, Lee was a little over 2 years old, is that +correct; he was born October 1939. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then 10 and your brother Robert was 8, I am +talking about approximate ages now. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you entered Bethlehem before your tenth birthday. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And a few months before his eighth birthday. Did Lee +eventually join you at Bethlehem? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did. The exact date I don't remember. I know +he was there for only a matter of months. He wasn't there as long as +Robert and I was. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you a document I will have marked as John Pic +Exhibit No. 2, please, for purposes of identification which appears +to be a Xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by Mrs. +Marguerite Oswald and related minutes for admission of Lee Oswald to +the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association, dated at +New Orleans, December 26, 1942, and showing entry of Lee Oswald into +the orphanage asylum on the 26th day of December 1942. + +(John Pic Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, I direct your attention to the line on which +appears what purports to be the signature of "Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." +You are familiar with the handwriting, are you not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Of your mother Marguerite? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And with her signature? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Drawing on that familiarity, is that signature the +signature of your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the document now identified as John Pic +Exhibit No. 2. + +Having done that, Sergeant, does that refresh your recollection as to +the time when your brother Lee Oswald was admitted to the orphanage +asylum? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it to have been sometime in late 1942 or +thereabout? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when he was--he joined you +at the orphan asylum. + +Mr. PIC. I remember we were there a while, sir. He came, and to the +best of my recollection he didn't stay but 6 months at the longest, and +left again. I don't think--he wasn't there as long as we were. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, Sergeant, to the fact your mother +has listed on this application her address as 111 Sherwood Forest Drive. + +Mr. PIC. That address is familiar to me. Sherwood Forest Drive part of +it, the numbers are not. + +Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the +street you do recall? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. In fact, the Murrets lived on the same street. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression then that the address of 111 Sherwood +Forest Drive was probably the address of the Murrets? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wouldn't say that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother moving out of 1010 Bartholomew? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And so that it is your recollection that sometime between +your entry into the Bethlehem Orphanage at which time the family lived +at 1010 Bartholomew, that your mother and Lee or at least your mother +left, it must have been your mother and Lee, left the 1010 Bartholomew +residence and moved to another home on Sherwood Drive? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. You put it in sequence as best you can. + +Mr. PIC. If there was anything between Bartholomew and Sherwood Forest +Drive, I don't remember, sir. I do remember the Sherwood Forest Drive +house, and if I remember right it was three or four doors down from the +Murrets. + +Mr. JENNER. Where would that be in your recollection with respect to +Bartholomew? + +Mr. PIC. Oh, that is way across town, sir. That is in the city park +area. In fact, it was only a block from city park. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee was then--your mother had him with her because at +this time, December 1942, he was just a little over 3 years old. + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The records show that the 1010 Bartholomew home was sold +on the 16th of January 1942. Does that refresh your recollection as to +sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house +and over to Sherwood Drive and the placing of you boys in the Bethlehem +orphanage school was all part of the picture? She sold the Bartholomew +house, entered you boys in the orphanage in January 1942. + +Mr. PIC. You want to know if I think she sold the house before we were +placed in the home? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But after you were in the home, that is the Bethlehem +Orphanage Home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And she moved into another house on Sherwood Drive? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by +the name of John Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or---- + +Mr. PIC. I remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. I don't recall +his name, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. W. S. Oswald, is that familiar to you? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is +you don't recall his name, his first name? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. His name was Oswald, though? + +Mr. PIC. I know it was on his side, sir. It may have been his sister, I +don't know. Maybe his brother-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't know. + +I will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 3 another application blank, +this one dated January 3, 1942, for admission of Robert Edward Oswald, +Jr., to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum, which is +dated January 3, 1942, and direct you, Sergeant to the signature +appearing on that exhibit reading "Mrs. Lee Oswald." Are you familiar +with that signature? + +Mr. PIC. That is the first time I have ever seen her use the word "Lee." + +Mr. JENNER. But the handwriting; that is her handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document now identified as John Pic +Exhibit No. 3. + +(John Pic Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows +the entry of your brother Robert in the orphanage asylum on January 3, +1942, is it a fact that you and your brother Robert entered the asylum +at the same time? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to this. There appears in the line +designated "mother" written in longhand Marguerite Claverie Oswald, +address, 1010 Bartholomew, and then right above it there is written 831 +Pauline Street--January 28. + +Do you recall your mother moving with Lee to a place on Pauline Street +in January of 1942? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All you recall is that she and Lee did move to a place, +another place from the 1010 Bartholomew address? + +Mr. PIC. Well, it shows it there. I thought it was Sherwood Forest, I +don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. It might have been shortly after that? + +Mr. PIC. This is not familiar at all, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the 831 Pauline Street address is not at all +familiar? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is any of this application blank, that is any of the +longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your religion is Lutheran, is it not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were baptized in the Lutheran church, were you not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that your brother Lee was taken from +the orphanage home before you and Robert were? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were released in June of 1944? + +Mr. PIC. I have--I may have. If you say it was June, sir, OK. It was +May or June. + +Mr. JENNER. May or June of 1944. And does it refresh your recollection +that your brother Lee was released from that home the previous January, +as a matter of fact on---- + +Mr. PIC. He didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all I know is +he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. It +was between those periods the best I can state. + +Mr. JENNER. The record (Pic Exhibit) shows he was released from the +home on the 19th of January, 1944 (Pic Exhibit No. 2A), and that he +entered the home on the 26th of December, 1942 (Pic Exhibit No. 2). + +So he was there 2 years. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is not right. + +Mr. JENNER. That doesn't square with your recollection, you mean? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. He may have been in and out of there off and on but +he didn't spend full time there that long. You see she may have pulled +him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the Murrets, and +things or even longer and still have him charged against Bethlehem. + +Mr. JENNER. I misspoke when I said 2 years. It would be the period from +December 26, 1942, to January 29, 1944, which is 1 year and 1 month. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; that would only be a year and 1 month. + +Mr. JENNER. For the record then that span of time for your brother +between January 29, 1944, when he was released, and December 26, 1942, +when he entered is approximately 13 months. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is about what you remember, isn't it? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I remember it about 6 months. But I guess that is right. +I know he wasn't in there a full 13 months at a clip. He was in and out +of there in 13 months. At that school if your parents wanted to take +you home for a couple or 3 weeks they took you home for a couple or 3 +weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do remember your mother did that? + +Mr. PIC. Sure, I am sure he stayed at the Murrets also. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the Murrets recall that. Now, I show you an exhibit +which we will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 4 which for purposes of +identification is a Xerox duplication of a letter from Mrs. Marguerite +Oswald to the Reverend Harold of the Evangelical Lutheran Orphanage +Asylum dated February 1, 1945, addressed 4801 Victor, Dallas, Tex. + +It is in longhand. Would you please examine it for the purpose of +answering a question I will put to you as to whether it is in the +handwriting of your mother? + +Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibit No. 4. + +(John Pic Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. I have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 5 another application +for admission to Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum +Association dated December 23, 1942, for the admission of John Edward +Pic and Robert Oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the +application is confined to John Edward Pic. + +Unfortunately, Mr. Pic, this application, for some reason by oversight +was not signed by your mother. Do you remember a pastor by the name of +Rev. J. H. Nau? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At the Redeemer Lutheran Church? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Reporter, for purposes of the record, there +appears on this application the fact that the marriage of Sergeant +Pic's mother Marguerite and his father Edward John Pic, Jr. was at +Gulfport, La. + +Mr. PIC. Mississippi. + +Mr. JENNER. No, it says Gulfport, La. here and should have been +Gulfport, Miss.? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; Mississippi. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Reverend Scherer? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The Trinity Evangelical Church. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Rev. M. R. Lecron? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the Redeemer Church? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, all you boys were christened in the Lutheran +church, faith, were you not? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know or remember if Lee was. I don't know about Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he +was baptized by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. +The exact date, however, is not given. + +Mr. PIC. They even have his birthday wrong there. + +Mr. JENNER. 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a +matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th. + +Mr. PIC. So does one of the letters. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer John Pic Exhibit No. 5 in evidence. + +(John Pic Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. We will adjourn now and reconvene at 3 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED + +The proceeding was reconvened at 3:25 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, Sergeant. + +Do you recall along about this time that you were in the Bethlehem +Orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of E. A. +Ekdahl and subsequently married? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was about this time, around 1944, that you boys were +withdrawn from the Bethlehem Orphanage and taken to Texas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I will go back a little bit because I want you to put +it in sequence. Before we adjourned for noon recess, I covered the +matter of the period of the birth of Lee, the death of your stepfather +Lee Oswald, and then brought you up to the Bethlehem School and stopped +there. + +To the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your +entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather Lee Oswald was +alive. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were, when you entered grammar school that was +kindergarten you were only four and half years old. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall moving from place to place before you finally +settled in---- + +Mr. PIC. I just remember one residence prior to Alvez and Galvez. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. Where that would have been, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. OK. But you sort of settled down in 2109 Alvar? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That your stepfather had purchased that home in 1938? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you went along, he died about a year and a half +later after he purchased it. + +Take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your +impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what +effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances +had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to +lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was +alive if there is any change now. + +I don't want to put any words in your mouth. + +Mr. PIC. Well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two +boarding schools prior to Bethlehem, this Infant Jesus, and the other +one I don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school. + +Mr. JENNER. Sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning +and brought you back. That is two of the boys, not Lee? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was almost a suckling child? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember. I don't see how he could have been there. + +Now this day school was prior to Infant Jesus, it had to be. We went +to Infant Jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we +attended Washington and then into Bethlehem. + +Like I said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had +financial difficulty. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you just talked about Washington and +Bethlehem you put Washington before Bethlehem, and this morning you put +Washington into Bethlehem. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; we went to Washington before Bethlehem. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you will find that the record of this morning, I am +pretty sure, will show a different sequence. That is your impression, +that you went into Bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; Infant Jesus. + +Mr. JENNER. Infant Jesus. I see. Go ahead. You are right. + +Mr. PIC. We were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were +financial difficulties, and I was rather young, I don't remember +too much about this, but it was always something to do about money +problems. We kind of liked Infant Jesus, it wasn't bad at all. We had a +pretty good childhood while we lived on Bartholomew Street, there were +no major problems there. And even at Bethlehem we both, Robert and I +enjoyed Bethlehem. I mean we were all there with the kids with the same +problems, same age groups, and everything. Things for myself became +worse when Lee came there, that is why I know he wasn't there too long. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it? + +Mr. PIC. At Bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger +brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the +older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of +classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very +much, and I wasn't but 10 or 9 or 11. + +Mr. JENNER. He was only 3 years old? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; but I was 10. And they did quite a few things like this. +If there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of +the younger child. The people there didn't all the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this 7-year spread as the years went on between you and +Lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from +your relationship with your brother Robert who was only 2 years younger? + +Mr. PIC. Well, anything I was involved in Robert always was. Lee was +left out because of the age difference. Robert and I went to all these +homes together and all the schools together. Lee didn't, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the years your companions and friends, +I assume were different, that is you and Robert on the one hand? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee on the other? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. His life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that +is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this +period at Bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn +for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Living with her? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she express problems on her part with him? + +Mr. PIC. Well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child +and things like this, both. It would seem that the problem with Robert +and I was easier to solve than the problem with Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. Go ahead with your account. + +Mr. PIC. Well, up until we left Bethlehem, I can only recall three +places of employment for Mrs. Oswald, one being Oswald's notion store +which was 1941-42, thereabouts. + +Mr. JENNER. While you had the Bethlehem house? + +Mr. PIC. No; that was before Bethlehem. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't mean Bethlehem, Bartholomew Street? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; after we were placed in Bethlehem she was a manager of +Princess Hosiery on Canal Street and Pittsburgh Plate and Glass Co., I +don't remember which one came first. + +Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian +Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at +Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I +remember him driving us over there or something once. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have +occasion to visit? + +Mr. PIC. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of +heavy? + +Mr. JENNER. She is now. + +Mr. PIC. She was then too, that is the same one. + +Mr. JENNER. Energetic? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I remember a Myrtle. + +Mr. JENNER. She had taken some accounting and---- + +Mr. PIC. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady. + +Mr. JENNER. She had been a girl friend of your mother's? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at +Bethlehem, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you +were at Covington, one time? + +Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you +first went to Texas? + +Mr. PIC. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle +is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 +years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places? + +Mr. JENNER. H-o-l-m-e-s? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course you would recall the Murret family. + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I recall them very good. + +Mr. JENNER. There were a couple of those children about your age and +Robert's, is that right? + +Mr. PIC. I can only--let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles. + +Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is the youngest? + +Mr. PIC. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest. + +Mr. JENNER. B-o-o-g-i-e? + +Mr. PIC. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball. + +Mr. JENNER. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think---- + +Mr. JENNER. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian. + +Mr. PIC. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or +thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age. + +Mr. JENNER. She had five children? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Marilyn. + +Mr. PIC. Joyce. + +Mr. JENNER. Marilyn, Joyce, John, Gene---- + +Mr. PIC. Charles. + +Mr. JENNER. And Charles. They are all alive? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much. + +Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along with them? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was +placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the +people resented this or was glad to have him or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be +generous people. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or +two. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning +that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with +the Oswald family? + +Mr. PIC. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his +death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what +I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would +visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister +or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we +visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a +whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, +there was no contact at all, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to why that took place? + +Mr. PIC. I will speculate and say that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate. + +Mr. PIC. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. With your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went +to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care +of Lee who was then---- + +Mr. PIC. What was Roach's first name, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Thomas. + +Mr. PIC. What street did he live on? + +Mr. JENNER. 831 Pauline. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have +taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your +mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple +present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora +Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the +800 block. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 +Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the +renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; this I don't recall at all. + +Mr. JENNER. And it wasn't long after they were there that some +difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about +6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep +interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with +the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course +of recounting that. + +Mr. PIC. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and +lower in the class structure. + +Mr. JENNER. As your financial status---- + +Mr. PIC. And our class structure, both. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went +down? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you say lower in the class structure? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that? + +Mr. PIC. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on +Alvez. + +Mr. JENNER. While your father was alive? + +Mr. PIC. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, +I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, +two class structures dropped, something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with +our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we +enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had +quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out +of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert +and I enjoyed it. + +Mr. JENNER. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was +her personality affected by the death of your stepfather? + +Mr. PIC. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since +she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as +the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't +see that much of her. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe +once in a while she would drop around. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once +or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. +We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, +and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would +ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. +Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there. + +Mr. JENNER. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your +present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within +the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a +reasonably happy life? + +Mr. PIC. We enjoyed it. + +Mr. JENNER. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the +circumstances? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. +Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present +recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and +when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance +was at that time, what your mother's was? + +Mr. PIC. Okay. + +Mr. JENNER. Give times as best you can. + +Mr. PIC. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can +practically date for you Mr. Ekdahl's---- + +Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, +and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Pittsburgh Plate? + +Mr. PIC. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he +appeared on the scene. And she visited us more often when she was +going with him. + +Mr. JENNER. And she brought him with her, did she? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; he had the car. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this +period following your stepfather's death? + +Mr. PIC. I don't think so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother visited you more often? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it +may have been more. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your +stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a +summer resort area, is it not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is on the--it is north of New Orleans on the +northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go +to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than +Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the +summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any of those people that +you--whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during +the summer period? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at +these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets +were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large +house there. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to +you? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection +over in Covington? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have +been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting +Mr. Ekdahl. + +Mr. PIC. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were +going to be removed and why? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew +maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time. + +Mr. JENNER. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being +removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that +about? + +Mr. PIC. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents +they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not yet married to him? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945? + +Mr. PIC. That is about right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record +shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have +a recollection? + +Mr. PIC. He was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Who was he? Who did you understand he was? + +Mr. PIC. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., +somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. +Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore +glasses, very nice man. + +Mr. JENNER. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit. + +Mr. JENNER. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means +than your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Than you boys had been accustomed to? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his health, what did you understand as to that? + +Mr. PIC. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at +that time, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June +of 1944, where did you go? + +Mr. PIC. Dallas, Tex., sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember +the address. You can probably refresh me on that. + +Mr. JENNER. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor +was the address. + +Mr. PIC. That sounds familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor +Street home? + +Mr. PIC. It was white, two story. + +Mr. JENNER. Frame, brick? + +Mr. PIC. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I +am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the +lower right, in boxcar-type rooms. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. PIC. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, +kitchen. + +Mr. JENNER. One lined the other, you mean? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it? + +Mr. PIC. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with +Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At the outset? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to +Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he +in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to +Dallas to see us. Is that right? + +Mr. JENNER. I think that is right. I can't answer. + +Mr. PIC. Okay. + +Mr. JENNER. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question. + +Mr. PIC. I think that is the way the setup was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over +from Fort Worth and visit you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered +school, grammar school at that time, did you? + +Mr. PIC. Robert--just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer +school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really +remember. I think he did. + +Mr. JENNER. We are in the summer of 1944? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he +may have. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that it was the Davy Crockett---- + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. +Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to +summer school. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. If you can give me a map of Dallas? + +Mr. JENNER. You never heard of it? + +Mr. PIC. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately +the school was and I will show you where it was. + +Mr. JENNER. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of +1944, enter grammar school in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the +7th grade and Robert entered the 5th. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy +Crockett at that time? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All +right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester? + +Mr. PIC. Just a moment. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes? + +Mr. PIC. This house we went to in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one +side of it. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a duplex? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, +the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying +trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' +apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, +two-place houses. To me they are duplexes. + +Mr. PIC. Right; duplex. + +Mr. JENNER. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect +your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it +was a two-apartment building? + +Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure it was four apartments. + +Mr. JENNER. Okay; go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she +owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to +how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I +know; is this right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Carry on. + +Mr. PIC. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she +married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April. + +Mr. JENNER. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March +before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945. + +Mr. PIC. I have got summer. It is pretty good. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came +back and moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on +at--through that summer in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That following September, however, you transferred to some +other school; did you not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school +session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were +going. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that? + +Mr. PIC. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt +Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that--that that was forthcoming? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think. + +Mr. JENNER. And what were the circumstances? + +Mr. PIC. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding +school. + +Mr. JENNER. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of +your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John +Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem +Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage. + +Mr. PIC. I don't think I was aware of this letter. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not aware? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible +relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her +seeking to do this? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of +returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with +her husband when she does marry him--that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no +discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject? + +Mr. PIC. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I +have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where +the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and +where I lived. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 +Victor Street? + +Mr. PIC. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe that neighborhood to us. + +Mr. PIC. I think it would be middle class. + +Mr. JENNER. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New +Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper +route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some +upper middle class. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your life there pleasant? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships +generally among all, now five of you, pleasant? + +Mr. PIC. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. +I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from +time to time. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of those? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the +schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was +about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Robert? + +Mr. PIC. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to +school with. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course. + +Mr. PIC. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if +Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, +you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side +trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston +to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then +proceeded to Boston. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a motor trip? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick. + +Mr. JENNER. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except +for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a +whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money +to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from +Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when +we arrived at Shreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us +up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have +an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then +drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 +miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same +Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house. + +Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we was writing. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of correspondence? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This was your first view of that house? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what it was; describe it to us? + +Mr. PIC. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I +just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went +up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with +quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the +Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We +arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why +we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy +fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she +kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another +woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I +have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she +told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having +some fun. + +Mr. JENNER. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the +Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess this +is---- + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you returned after the Christmas holiday to---- + +Mr. PIC. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to +Chamberlain-Hunt. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of +1946? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you during the summer of 1946? + +Mr. PIC. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we +would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school +let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was +a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This +suited us fine. We really liked the school. + +Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us +that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of +course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay +the summer. We had--the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I +think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding +or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, +Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk +to him? + +Mr. JENNER. Not that I know of. + +Mr. PIC. A real nice man, too. She had the car. + +Mr. JENNER. The 1938 Buick? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. She had it. + +Mr. JENNER. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and +there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown +area that we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this +area. That address I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your +recollection, 311 Vermont? + +Mr. PIC. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door +was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out +every morning chasing them with a broom. + +Mr. JENNER. The squirrels? + +Mr. PIC. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived +on the right side. + +Mr. JENNER. You stayed there throughout the summer? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. +Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington +where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During +those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who +lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were +driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans +and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your mother accompany you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he entered---- + +Mr. PIC. He probably did. + +Mr. JENNER. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January +23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School. + +Mr. PIC. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, +he is now 7 years old? + +Mr. PIC. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My +next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. +Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert and I---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had she returned to---- + +Mr. PIC. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved +to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in +Benbrook. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Right. This address I don't remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh +your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and +outs. + +Mr. JENNER. You were home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now +let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job +for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks +before they fired me. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now 15 years old? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other +boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from +California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after +I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of +Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks +from the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe that house, please. + +Mr. PIC. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived +the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or +his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a +couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I +remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs +or side. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe the neighborhood, please. + +Mr. PIC. I would say it would be middle class. + +Mr. JENNER. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 +Victor in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream +Parlor. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing? + +Mr. PIC. Nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't work? + +Mr. PIC. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time. + +Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would +seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave +and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, +I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove +up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were +going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and +this was one of their longer separation periods. + +So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really +elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back +together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would +write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a +poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. I--what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your definite impression that he liked him. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He +had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I +know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated +all of us like his own children. + +Mr. JENNER. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt +Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your--to you boys dated +August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third +Street of Fort Worth. + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This would be at the time when your mother was living in +Covington. During that period. + +Mr. PIC. I didn't know about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of it? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I +know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you +mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back +together again, more friendly? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older +boys. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur during that summer? + +Mr. PIC. A whole bunch of stuff. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't +know if you know about the raid or not. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't think so. + +Mr. PIC. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another--knew a couple, +a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember +their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a +downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort +Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would +come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. +Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident. + +Mr. JENNER. This is still during the summer of 1947? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had +strong suspicions that Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she +was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew +where the woman lived and everything. + +So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into +this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted +as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this +woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened +the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a +nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his +shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and +all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident. + +In September, Robert--well, in August--Robert and I in September +returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school +year 1947-48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas +holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in +Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is +in that time period. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the +front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the +background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take those pictures? + +Mr. PIC. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take the pictures? + +Mr. PIC. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received--no, +we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence. + +(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time? + +Mr. PIC. We did not see him during those holidays. + +Mr. JENNER. You returned to the academy following the Christmas +vacation? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you continued on through the end of that school year, +did you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to May 1948. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to +be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his +relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at +school. + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that +was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies +and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and +so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had +my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school +year of 1947-48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly. + +We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't +remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class +again. + +Mr. JENNER. The house at---- + +Mr. PIC. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks. + +Mr. JENNER. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth. + +Mr. PIC. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember +we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in +this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school. + +Mr. JENNER. The divorce had taken place in the meantime? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; it had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see him during that summer? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir--yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later +during the summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, +were you? + +Mr. PIC. May I continue? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. When we returned home I seen this house and my first +impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that +a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures +of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt +were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the +summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort +Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand +but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a +falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age. + +I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother +had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she +would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that +I could have done. + +I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would +still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was +also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated +that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is +when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe that house. + +Mr. PIC. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her +bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. +She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room +in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this +house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this +first house? + +Mr. PIC. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at +the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the +time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would +go pick up the mail at the post office. + +Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that +is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned +heretofore? + +Mr. PIC. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way +far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military +Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be +Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook. + +Mr. PIC. That is the one further south of Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the first one? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer +of 1948 is different from the first one? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. You can't remember the street address? + +Mr. PIC. There was no street address. This was the first and only house +built there. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. +Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in +Benbrook, that house. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you select those, please? + +Mr. PIC. These were taken in Covington. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked +John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when? + +Mr. PIC. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La. + +Mr. JENNER. And those pictures are pictures of whom? + +Mr. PIC. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. Holding a fish. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. + +(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits +Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white +dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other +shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and +an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, +the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking +at Exhibit what now? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. +This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the +background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you +want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all +of our food buying. + +Mr. JENNER. Shopping? + +Mr. PIC. As far as the neighborhood was concerned. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does +it say? + +Mr. PIC. This says "Blackie, 1949." + +Mr. JENNER. Blackie was the name of the dog? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was. + +Mr. PIC. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from +the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and +Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the +picture is the roof and corner of the house. + +Mr. JENNER. The house in which you lived? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55. + +(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.) + +Mr. PIC. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and +then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., +Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex. + +At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to +Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I +actually recall any hostility towards my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. On your part? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to +go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the +11th grade and I did want to finish there. + +Mr. JENNER. How did Robert react to that? + +Mr. PIC. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were +informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for +us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for +me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family +supplement its income. + +Mr. JENNER. That is withdraw from school entirely? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert +returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's +Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy +at the salary of $25 a week. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pay some of that money to your mother? + +Mr. PIC. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did. + +Mr. JENNER. $15 a week? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. +Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and +Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 +Ewing. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go +to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing +they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she +did, a couple of hours, in fact. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the +summer and moved out in the early fall. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in +Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years? + +Mr. PIC. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the +three boys were left alone at home. + +Mr. JENNER. What about the previous years? + +Mr. PIC. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to +Mr. Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery +school--when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on +Granbury Road? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know that, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no impression? + +Mr. PIC. That I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street. + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a +grammar school and one a junior high school. + +Mr. PIC. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, +she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, +West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. What happened to Lee? You were working. + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert was in school. + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee was in school. + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when +he finished? + +Mr. PIC. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he do? + +Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother was at work? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that time so---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was he--what about his habits in that respect? Did--your +mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house +until she arrived? + +Mr. PIC. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was +not the type to goof off in things like this. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy +reading at this stage of his life? + +Mr. PIC. He always read a lot, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He did? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his--was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit +tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or +the contrary? + +Mr. PIC. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age +in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother +Robert's. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and +your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had +reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9. + +Mr. PIC. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, +we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work +at sunup and returned at dark myself. + +In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young +teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some +reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted +to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to +supplement the income. So---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get paid for this service? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, +something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; +something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was +McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were not in fact 17? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. +Can we go off the record? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. PIC. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October +1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, +U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started +thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, +I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to +school and finished my high school education. + +Mr. JENNER. To what school did you return? + +Mr. PIC. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to +supplement your income? + +Mr. PIC. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for +about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they +informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so +I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's +shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time +because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make +in their stockroom plus all day Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. Selling shoes? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your mother doing at this time? + +Mr. PIC. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's +Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I +left Everybody's, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Robert working after school? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; he was working at the A & P. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the +previous fall? + +Mr. PIC. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was +working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during +that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both. + +So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High +School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there. + +The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up +for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. P-a-s-k-a-l? + +Mr. PIC. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had +the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer +of 1949. September of 1949---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in +the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the +summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing? + +Mr. PIC. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran +across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing during the summer? + +Mr. PIC. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your +mother during this period? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Both of you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you +had started to give her in the fall of 1948? + +Mr. PIC. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set +income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay +might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I +had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her. + +Mr. JENNER. And was Robert contributing something as well? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee didn't work at any time? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the +summer of 1949 doing any work? + +Mr. PIC. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He is now 10 years old? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a +10-year-old sometimes does? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the fall of 1949. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided--well, let's go back to +when I went back to high school. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. It is January of 1949. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was at Ridglea. + +Mr. PIC. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back +to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was +my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided +since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign +my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything. + +My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me +to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get +would be the best thing for me. + +Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I +could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this +regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes +when I played hooky and missed school. + +Mr. JENNER. Signing her name? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; so in---- + +Mr. JENNER. By the way what kind of a student were you? + +Mr. PIC. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B +average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the +public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The +classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass +teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I +had a B or C average at Arlington Heights. + +My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an +A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to +Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time +that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my +own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the +fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better. + +Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went +there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called +distributive education which means you go to school and work part time +you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal +it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high +class, the majority of them. + +I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, +and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas +holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I +had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed +everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, +and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I +quit school and joined the Coast Guard. + +At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had +to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show +up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the +Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't +interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one +that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it. + +So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, +and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother +until October 1950, 9 months later. + +Mr. JENNER. October of 1959? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; 1950. 1950. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee +returned to school in the fall of 1949? + +Mr. PIC. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then? + +Mr. PIC. As far as I know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his general attitude and his activities during +this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949. + +Mr. PIC. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an +8-9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my +mind and other things like that, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. To be honest with you. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that +time? + +Mr. PIC. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have +trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn +or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of +Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would +remember that better than I did. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know whether he mentioned that. + +Mr. PIC. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your +brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of +1950. + +Mr. PIC. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Until when? + +Mr. PIC. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? + +Mr. PIC. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you home on leave? + +Mr. PIC. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, +something like that, about 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that +time? + +Mr. PIC. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was--well, I come home +with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas +always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for +me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of +my own. + +Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, +and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, very nice man. + +Mr. JENNER. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us. + +Mr. JENNER. On the same side of the street? + +Mr. PIC. Same side. + +Mr. JENNER. Hiram Conway. + +Mr. PIC. Hiram P. Conway. + +Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the service? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. I reported back to my ship. + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert? + +Mr. PIC. August 1952, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know. + +Mr. JENNER. At Ridglea Elementary? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert was still in school. He is now 16-1/2 years of age? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was +a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. +I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave. + +Mr. JENNER. What was he doing? + +Mr. PIC. A & P, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact +that your father contributed to your support during all the years +actually until you reached your 18th birthday? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own +since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after +I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of +that contribution was? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making +contributions? + +Mr. PIC. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was +making contributions? + +Mr. PIC. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments +stopped right then and there. + +Mr. JENNER. The fact is that they did. + +Mr. PIC. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to +your mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in +the service? + +Mr. PIC. Quite frequently, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount. + +Mr. PIC. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the +only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the +rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to +go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember +if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you send any of the excess when you got it? + +Mr. PIC. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how +much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I +had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a +sailor? + +Mr. JENNER. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am +doing is seeking some facts. + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring +to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2-1/2. Would you +identify that, please? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2-1/2 as the picture +states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This +picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure of that. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which--would you +identify that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at +the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian +Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive. + +Mr. JENNER. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a +photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place +if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to +have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be when you were living in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know +which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one. + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late +1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald +approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my +wife and I in August of 1952. + +Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to +me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New +Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. It is after they returned to New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, +49, 56, 57, and 58. + +(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to +your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952? + +Mr. PIC. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service +sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did +he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He +was in the service when they came. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his +majority. + +Mr. PIC. So that would be April 1952. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your +mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just +before he entered the service? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You came to know about that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By what means? + +Mr. PIC. By way of my mother, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, what was it? + +Mr. PIC. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My +mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, +and she conned him out of it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that +subject at anytime? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the +summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and +what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your +mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952. + +Mr. PIC. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the +summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was +feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression +and also my wife's--meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are +interested in this. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am. + +Mr. PIC. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. + +Mr. JENNER. You had met her after you had entered the service and while +you were stationed in the New York area? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living +where? + +Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children at that time? + +Mr. PIC. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Your first child was born? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee +arrived. + +Mr. PIC. Before, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they +arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to +New York? + +Mr. PIC. The impression that my wife and myself had was they +were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My +mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her +other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying +with them, so we had the room for them. + +Mr. JENNER. But that was your mother's apartment or home? + +Mr. PIC. Mother-in-law's. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it an apartment or a home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. One room in back of the other? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that +particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your +impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for +the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a +period during the summer that was your definite impression. + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened? + +Mr. PIC. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port +Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked +once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all +the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with +them. + +Mr. JENNER. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean +you took Lee. + +Mr. PIC. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a +week or so, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but +you said you took leave. + +Mr. PIC. Leave. + +Mr. JENNER. You took 30 days leave. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; maybe a week or two. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be +with them during that 2-week period. + +Mr. PIC. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August +1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite +a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk +about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I +was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. +We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real +glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few +days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks +of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th +Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other +excursions we made. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense +they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my +mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little +bit. We didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, +but she was due back in a matter of a month or so. + +During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the +service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around +to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham +University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple +of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car +that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't +quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many +good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I +put my wife before my mother any day. + +Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went +back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little +problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that +there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I +was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, +and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset +about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was +away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell +me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that +whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards +hostility against my wife. + +My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would +be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having +him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an +impossibility. + +It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and +he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to +stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have +them, and took him up to enroll in this school. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New +York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and +Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him. + +Mr. ELY. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for +finishing high school somehow? + +Mr. PIC. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why +your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's +being given some sort of mental tests? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of +Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a +Lutheran denominational school? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. + +Mr. PIC. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that +we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the +TV set one day, and--between my wife and my mother. It seems that +according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being +very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said +that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use +it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my +wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related +to me. + +Mr. JENNER. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, +Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present? + +Mr. PIC. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked +my mother about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother was home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she was home. + +Mr. JENNER. You went and spoke with your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you? + +Mr. PIC. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it +off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a +pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV +channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather +believed my wife rather than my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to Lee about the incident? + +Mr. PIC. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this +subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became +real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this +happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are +going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the +hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting +thrown out of the house as they put it. + +When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was +never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear +anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed +up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them from time to time thereafter? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there +and ask me something about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You +hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you +notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his +mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward +others? + +Mr. PIC. He was definitely the boss. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us on what you base that? + +Mr. PIC. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my +mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He +had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well +together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got +along very well. She always reminded me of this. + +Mr. JENNER. Your wife reminded you of that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in +your home, then the attitude changed? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident +occurred, how had your relations with Lee been? + +Mr. PIC. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions +throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and +spend as much time as I could with him. + +Mr. JENNER. You found him to have--he was interested in that sort of +thing? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, +anything like that he liked. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to +have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and +did as he wished? + +Mr. PIC. Not until the knife pulling incident. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion? + +Mr. PIC. I attempted to, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from +time to time? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter. + +Mr. JENNER. He would not. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me. + +Mr. JENNER. There was an absolute, complete change then in his +relations with you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a marked one? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I +can relate that even more so. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you do that? + +Mr. PIC. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came +home from work. + +Mr. JENNER. They had moved out before you came home from work? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after +I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became +hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I +able to communicate with him in any way." + +Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your +notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then +give in your own words the facts. + +Mr. PIC. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider +us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother +relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite +a bit of me. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your +brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a +cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among +brothers? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your nickname? + +Mr. PIC. Pic. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your brother Robert's nickname? + +Mr. PIC. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think +that hung on a while after that. + +Mr. JENNER. What nickname did he have before that? + +Mr. PIC. None that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy? + +Mr. PIC. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why +they called him that. + +Mr. JENNER. I see, size. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever have a nickname? + +Mr. PIC. Not that I know of, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at +least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his +brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you +as older brothers? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in +your heart for your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you felt he reciprocated that? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And the relationship between yourself and your brother +Robert was cordial? + +Mr. PIC. They always have, and still are, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I may say to you that he so testified. All right. + +Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was +late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about +somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert +came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx. + +Mr. JENNER. To visit whom? + +Mr. PIC. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. To visit whom? + +Mr. PIC. To visit my mother and my brother. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother's wife accompany him? + +Mr. PIC. He wasn't married at that time, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He wasn't married? + +Mr. PIC. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or +November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We +visited their apartment in the Bronx. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where did your brother stay? + +Mr. PIC. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New +York. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event he did not stay with you. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think +so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a +date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of +times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was +my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son. + +Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife +he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and +didn't join us whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not join you for dinner? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife. + +Mr. JENNER. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you--he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak +with him? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he answer you? + +Mr. PIC. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't +interested in anything I had to say. + +Mr. JENNER. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening +or was it an evening? + +Mr. PIC. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son +we had to get home. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a Sunday or Saturday? + +Mr. PIC. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January 1950---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the +attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion? + +Mr. PIC. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up +his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he +wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too +much about it. I know he did not eat with us. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert? + +Mr. PIC. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present +him and Robert got along real good. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion. + +Mr. PIC. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was +completely withdrawn from the crowd. + +Mr. JENNER. He withdrew from everybody? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or +my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was +me, maybe it was both of us. + +In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay +in rather than quit, and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January +1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She +was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see +her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my +wife and I, to see her. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw +her on those occasions? + +Mr. PIC. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I +was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see +my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I +would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not +elaborate. + +Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk +to or no one to do anything with." + +Mr. JENNER. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any +of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you +advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with +respect to truancy in attendance at school? + +Mr. PIC. I am not quite there, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point +of January 1953 you were not aware. + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to +time during that period? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in +the Coast Guard. + +Mr. PIC. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again +invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same +apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was +up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is +that right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother +informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday +dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me +that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials +had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy +problem. + +She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or +nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to +how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. +That is all I could suggest. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her response to that? + +Mr. PIC. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the +psychiatrist, he wasn't going. + +Mr. JENNER. She had no control over him? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were quite aware of that, were you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with her? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she +couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you +that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something +that had suddenly arisen or---- + +Mr. PIC. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time +went by. + +Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you +enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems +with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem +developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and +take yourself back. + +Mr. PIC. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary +problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his +mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the +older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so +forth. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you and Robert do about it? + +Mr. PIC. Not much, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had +the love and affection for you? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to +a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14-16. There was no big troubles he got +into that any kid does. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted +in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the +neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, +first? + +Mr. PIC. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in +the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. +I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was +a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age +group. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out +and play with other children? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go +out and play. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that noticeable to you? + +Mr. PIC. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to +school, both. I wasn't there to observe this. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, +particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite +headstrong? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty +well lost any influence or control over him? + +Mr. PIC. That is absolutely true, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January +1953. + +Mr. PIC. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to +go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until +September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of +time? + +Mr. PIC. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen +her on several occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. During this---- + +Mr. PIC. Downtown where she worked. + +Mr. JENNER. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer +of 1953 or had she changed jobs? + +Mr. PIC. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this +period of time rather than Lerner's? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs +quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with +fellow workers at these various shops? + +Mr. PIC. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized +answer. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was. + +Mr. PIC. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may +have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told +me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. +That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing +about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it. + +Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next +job was better. + +Mr. JENNER. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which +was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next +date you gave, September of 1953? + +Mr. PIC. August-September 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion +with her about Lee? + +Mr. PIC. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is +getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have +anybody to confide in, things like this. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any +possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was +working out fine. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and +dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't +afford to do, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had a wife and child by that time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your compensation? + +Mr. PIC. For what, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. In the service at this time. + +Mr. PIC. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was +maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you contributing to the support of that whole +family unit? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mother-in-law, wife and child? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In +fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income +tax, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your +service your mother as a dependent? + +Mr. PIC. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect +that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she +referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, +I don't remember, sir, that incident at all. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, +we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while +listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in +September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her +sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did her sister live? + +Mr. PIC. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at +the Naval hospital there for school purposes. + +When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I +did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address. + +Mr. JENNER. Why not? + +Mr. PIC. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I +had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me +and I didn't have too much to say to her. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period of time there came about a substantially +complete rupture then between yourself and your mother? + +Mr. PIC. To a certain degree. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior +to that. + +Mr. JENNER. You did see him---- + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right; go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took +up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned +really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of +days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my +wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in +the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and +sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my +responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we +lived there almost 2 years. + +I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter _Halfmoon_, which +is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week +periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the +base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, +and you have the letters referring to this, sir. + +It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that +my mother called me from New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. By telephone? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then in New York? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned +upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we +did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could +accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't +have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if +she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat +of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was +stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 +miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine +Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention? + +Mr. PIC. My mother informed me of this fact. + +Mr. JENNER. By letter? + +Mr. PIC. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of +corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my +mother--let me make sure that date is right--I am fairly certain, sir; +that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas +holidays of 1958--that she visited us. + +Mr. JENNER. She did come to New York? + +Mr. PIC. Right. She come to--we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, +on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment +which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here. + +She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between +New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you learned that through correspondence? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. With her. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that +she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people +to town and things like this. + +Mr. JENNER. I think she was employed for a while in an organization +called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization. + +Mr. PIC. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was +Christmas of 1957, is that right? + +Mr. ELY. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon +greets people. + +Mr. PIC. Is this 1957 when she had that job? + +Mr. JENNER. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, +when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a +position of that character. + +Mr. PIC. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the +10th of January, sometime. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mr. PIC. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the +Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the +Marine Corps. He just liked it. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is +December of 1957. Was he still in the service? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten +discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his +wife. + +Mr. JENNER. He was discharged in the spring of 1956-1957, rather; and +stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while. + +Mr. PIC. I don't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother +Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 +weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, +and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines. + +Mr. PIC. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe. + +Mr. ELY. 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, +mustered out in 1956? + +Mr. PIC. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short +time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth. + +After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail +and every now and then a phone call. + +Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left +Mitchel and departed cross country. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your wife and children? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By what, automobile? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By this time you owned an automobile? + +Mr. PIC. My second one. + +Mr. JENNER. Second one? + +Mr. PIC. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We +arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we +were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind +and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside then? + +Mr. PIC. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a +little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind +of circle or something? + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have that? + +Mr. PIC. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, +something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was +your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan +Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 +West Fifth Street, Fort Worth. + +Mr. PIC. That isn't familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. It is not familiar? + +Mr. PIC. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of +Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real +well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. +Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West +Fifth Street is probably about the same place. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident +occurred? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am getting to that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and +really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be +there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to +be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no +idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from +there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything. + +Then the Sunday that we were there--well, prior to this, when we +arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He +was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He +was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I +take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time? + +Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I +believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I +know she was working at a candy counter. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in +the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries +for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old +friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following +Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another +Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was +invited to this dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. At your brother's? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it +seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite +put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided +that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and +I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. +After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me +to come get our bags, that we would have to leave. + +So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we +knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went +back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and +she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her +out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for +this when we threw her and Lee out. + +I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that +every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad +things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends +right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, +talked to her, anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Or seen her. + +Mr. PIC. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent +me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was +getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble +for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed +her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and +this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to +do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked +at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, +we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until +Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's suspend for dinner. + +Mr. PIC. Could I just add one thing, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. You were informed by your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was? + +Mr. PIC. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just +a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I +never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, +saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I +was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 +November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to +see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your +brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you +were there in 1958? + +Mr. PIC. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He +didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee +was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in +New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or +something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and +got them and drove back all in the same trip. + +Mr. JENNER. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and +came to Fort Worth. + +Mr. PIC. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a +statement. + +Mr. JENNER. What testimony of Marilyn Murret? + +Mr. PIC. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his +defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, +no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew +he defected that he was in Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. Who informed you? + +Mr. PIC. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I will go into that right after dinner. + +Mr. PIC. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. We will suspend until 7:30. + +(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + +TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED + +The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the +incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother +and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please? + +(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) + +Mr. JENNER. Marilyn Murret is your cousin? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to +Japan? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Japan about when? + +Mr. PIC. 10 November 1958, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn +Murret, was in Japan? + +Mr. PIC. She was not in Japan then, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there +sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you +stationed? + +Mr. PIC. My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, +San Francisco, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there? + +Mr. PIC. Right. In approximately October-November, early November, +the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital, and it had +been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from +Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to +the house the next weekend. + +She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and +as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn +her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe. + +We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about +how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big +show about this. + +Mr. JENNER. How did she know that, did she reveal? + +Mr. PIC. She had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the Marine +Corps. She described him in uniform, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan? + +Mr. PIC. No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year +after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. And she had seen him when he first joined the Marine Corps, +is my impression, sometime while he was in the Marine Corps and in the +States. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee had visited their home in +New Orleans? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is the impression I got. + +Mr. JENNER. Go on. + +Mr. PIC. Well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, I never +answered any of her letters. Maybe I would receive a letter from her +every once, every 2 or 3 months. I also was aware of the fact that Lee +was going to be discharged from the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. You became aware of that through what means? + +Mr. PIC. The letters I would receive from my mother. She informed me +that Marilyn Murret--that Lee upon his discharge had gone to Europe. I +asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money +and she said he saved it while he was in the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say he had gone to Europe? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "Do you +know that Lee is in Europe?" I said, "No, I don't know that." I had no +way of knowing that. So I started asking her about him, and this is +what she told me that Lee had gone to Europe. + +It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock news that I learned that Lee +had defected. + +Mr. JENNER. You say 9 o'clock news--was that---- + +Mr. PIC. Japan time, sir, that night. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean, what source was the news? + +Mr. PIC. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed, +and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she +nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next +day it appeared in the paper. + +Mr. JENNER. What paper? + +Mr. PIC. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again +the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and +Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them +who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the +Embassy in Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the American Embassy? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I +could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was +"Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to +him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received +several---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When you heard this what was your reaction? + +Mr. PIC. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and +I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they +mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper +and that is when I reported to the OSI. + +Mr. JENNER. What is OSI? + +Mr. PIC. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it +was your brother what was your reaction? + +Mr. PIC. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he done or said anything during all your life together +which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to +remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to +strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured +this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was +thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just, +I was thinking about him at that time and I figured well, when he +defected and came back--that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--elaborate on that. Why did you have a +feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great +tragedy? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain. +I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my +young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident +in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for +a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his +attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life? + +Mr. PIC. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a +father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance +to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert +and I like he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marilyn Murret again? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the +orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her, +her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not, +sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was +in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read +states that no one knew he was going. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was in your home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The very day that the announcement was made? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the +hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my +records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio +broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't +think so, because at 9 o'clock---- + +Mr. JENNER. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention +any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in +Europe?" Is that correct? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact, +I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew +he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may +have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little +less probably. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw her again after that, did you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the +last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan. +We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when +she was leaving, but she never did. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment in Japan? + +Mr. PIC. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you return to the United States? + +Mr. PIC. July 1962, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And to where did you return? + +Mr. PIC. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In +Japan, there is more that happened, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. I received--I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about +this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't +tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did +defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from +Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information +I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't +remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me +the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave +it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one +should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be +listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating +this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI +report. + +And from what other information I had, I received the impression that +him turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call +it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir, +from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own +statements. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with +your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions +with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward +democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about +12, 13 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the answer is no? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is the answer--no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You--I take it from that answer--you never heard him assert +any views? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. On his part, with respect to that subject matter? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper +and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I +got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I +didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change +my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable +enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see +no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was +no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I +didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these +reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the +time of your return to the United States? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in +the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is before you returned to this country you had read in +the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was on his way, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was on his way back? + +Mr. PIC. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and +Stripes, with his wife and child? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when? + +Mr. PIC. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of +July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base +in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I +took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in +August, the latter part of August. + +Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after +arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any +attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, +and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working +there, and everything seemed to be okay. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to +this country, had lived with him for a while? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at +the Thanksgiving reunion that he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him +Thanksgiving 1962? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day +between about 11:30, 12:30. + +Mr. JENNER. In the morning? + +Mr. PIC. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the +Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went +down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus +station. Whether or not they--we had no way of seeing them getting +off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the +friendly sayings and I was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were +your impressions? + +Mr. PIC. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this +feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had +seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to +his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and +he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time +did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I +believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in--and talk through. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject--where +he had learned Russian? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so +evidently he had learned Russian while there. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to +you to ask him about how and when he had learned? + +Mr. PIC. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia? + +Mr. PIC. We let him do the talking, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he speak of it? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. PIC. He told us he worked in a factory there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of work he did? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a factory it was? + +Mr. PIC. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, +I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while +he worked there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that +salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay +rent for his quarters? + +Mr. PIC. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being +married. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the +first place? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted +defection? + +Mr. PIC. Per se, no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You are qualifying that. You say per se. + +Mr. PIC. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had +received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was +attempting to get this changed to an honorable status. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he appear bitter about it? + +Mr. PIC. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad +conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it +to me. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his--what impression did you have as to his +overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind? + +Mr. PIC. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't +really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they +had there. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about that? + +Mr. PIC. What did he say, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a +lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money +to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he +let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay +the Government back. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay +them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement? + +Mr. PIC. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them +back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial +situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his financial situation? + +Mr. PIC. He didn't give me--this is what he gave me for an address. +He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no +television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee +pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a +stuffed animal of some type. + +Mr. JENNER. Thanksgiving Day you did this? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How come you brought him a coffee pot? + +Mr. PIC. I was going to give him a present. + +Mr. JENNER. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't +seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift--why were you---- + +Mr. PIC. Well, my wife being a Yankee---- + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you bring him a coffee pot? + +Mr. PIC. My wife in her Yankee ways believed when you don't see people +a long time you bring them a gift. It's just a token. We brought my +brother Robert a present, a set of dishes I had in Japan, I bought +them in Japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without +giving the other people something. + +Mr. JENNER. It isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. I can +understand that. That would be, I might be even a little surprised +if you hadn't. It is the particular gift in which I am interested. +Why did you select a coffee pot? Was there something that led to that +particular selection on your part? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife +says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle +under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. It was one of these +that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. And my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would +give them one. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what Robert +said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just +completely exhaust your recollection. + +Mr. PIC. Well, Lee informed us that he was working at some type +photography printing company. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. You were advised during the course of that day he was then +at that time living in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is what he said. + +Mr. JENNER. And working in some kind of photographic work in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. I said he referred to their living conditions. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. PIC. They had a one-room, I think it was one room. They ate +and slept in the same room, I believe. They had no radio, no TV. +That Marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about +supermarkets. Every time she went in one she lost control of herself. + +Marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. Lee appeared to +be a good father in that he would relieve Marina the burden of holding +the child and taking care of it. + +Mr. JENNER. How was he attired when you met him at the bus station? + +Mr. PIC. He had on a sport jacket and tie. Sports jacket and tie. + +Mr. JENNER. He was clean and neat? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How did Marina and your brother Lee appear to be getting +along? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; being they only spoke Russian to each other, I +don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other +married couple married a year or 2. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation during the course of the day in +which you participated or overheard as to Marina's undertaking to learn +English? + +Mr. PIC. Well, my sister-in-law, Vada---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is Robert's wife? + +Mr. PIC. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say +to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said +to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did +not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really +absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let +her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way +her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to +gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as +to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and +speak it and write it? + +Mr. PIC. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she +would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands. +For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is +usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, +she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all +the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that +this would happen if once she did learn English and everything. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this +particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you +exhaust all of your recollection. + +Mr. PIC. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set +the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we +mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact--I will take that +statement back. + +Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my +mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. +This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We +stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or +in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and +Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived +with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was +probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which +is small talk to the men, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your +brother for a while? + +Mr. PIC. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had +lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by +the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He +wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one--two-bedroom +apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were +crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure +Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept--I mean Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept +on a mattress on the floor? + +Mr. PIC. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived +with your brother for a time? + +Mr. PIC. Possibly, sir; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the +fact that during this period, up to Thanksgiving Day, there had been a +time when Marina had not lived with your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. I understood they arrived from New York, at New York +together, and proceeded--there was a short stay, I think, mentioned in +New York. Where they stayed, I don't know, sir, and then they proceeded +to Texas and lived with Robert. + +Mr. JENNER. I am referring particularly to September and October and +part of November 1962. Was there any reference or any discussion of it +or anything said in your presence of the fact that Marina had lived +apart, separate and apart from Lee? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During one or more periods of time in September or October +and November 1962? + +Mr. PIC. Possibly it could have been being Marina stayed there while +Lee went to look for a job in Dallas. I think, that may have been +mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there at any time mentioned even while he was working +in Fort Worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone +to live elsewhere? + +Mr. PIC. I am not aware that he did work in Fort Worth, sir, at any +time. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't learn at that time, Thanksgiving, that he had +worked in Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the Leslie Welding Co. mentioned at all? + +Mr. PIC. Something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when +he first came back, now that you mention it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression or did you gain the impression then +that he had had some employment in Fort Worth then as a welder? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember if it was Fort Worth, sir, or where it was. I +just know that welding was mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. In that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion +indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in Fort +Worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder? + +Mr. PIC. It was my impression because of his experience in the Soviet +Union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a +welder. + +Mr. JENNER. When he first returned? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that that was a position or work that he had had prior +to the time that he obtained the position in Dallas about which he +spoke? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a position preceding his work in the photography +field in some firm in Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything said about his financial status--that is, his and +Marina's, and the child? + +Mr. PIC. Well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were +managing to get by. They couldn't afford a TV, couldn't afford a radio, +couldn't afford these necessities of life. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during the course of that day on the +subject of any political philosophy of his? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Politics wasn't discussed? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether party politics or politics in the broad sense? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. How did he look to you physically as compared with when you +had seen him last? + +Mr. PIC. I would have never recognized him, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Your brother Robert said something along these +lines. You had last seen him in 19--that was prior to this occasion, +the last time you had seen him was when he was in New York City? + +Mr. PIC. Which was a little over 10 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, just about 10 years. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course you had seen him in February 1953, I think you +said. + +Mr. PIC. Right. But we walked in and he walked out. + +Mr. JENNER. But you saw him? + +Mr. PIC. Right, I had seen him for a moment. + +Mr. JENNER. He was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of +13 years of age? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw him 10 years later he was 23. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You noticed, did you, a material change, physically first, +let's take his physical appearance? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Physically I noticed that. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you notice? + +Mr. PIC. He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have +as much hair. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material +difference? Did that strike you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely. + +Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his physical appearance that +arrested your attention? + +Mr. PIC. His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes +were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked +different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had +described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull +neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice +this at all, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He seemed more slender? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He had materially less hair? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. His eyes seemed a little sunken? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he give you the appearance of--was he taut, was he +relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because I was not +with him. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed 10 +years prior to this. I wondered about how he still felt about that. + +Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still +remembered it vividly, or did or didn't? + +Mr. PIC. When he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he +remembered her. But other than that, he completely ignored her. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that pretty obvious? + +Mr. PIC. To her it was, sir. She mentioned it to me several times. He +arrived about 2. + +Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon? + +Mr. PIC. Right; and that is when we picked him up, so I guess we ate +about 3, 4 o'clock or so. And then the girls cleared off the table and +they sat and had coffee and I took them out, they wanted to see my car. + +Mr. JENNER. Took who out? + +Mr. PIC. Lee and Robert both. They looked at my car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina out with you? + +Mr. PIC. No; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked +about cars. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about a car? + +Mr. PIC. I was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't +driving. Other than this---- + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of that? + +Mr. PIC. He said he couldn't get a license, to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say why he couldn't get a license? + +Mr. PIC. He said it and give me the impression because of his +citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see your brother Lee Harvey Oswald drive an +automobile? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; never in my life. + +Mr. JENNER. While you boys were still in Fort Worth and before you +enlisted in the Coast Guard in January 1950 had you--you had an +automobile, didn't you? + +Mr. PIC. I drove the family car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert drive? + +Mr. PIC. He may have known how. He was not permitted to drive the +family car. + +Mr. JENNER. I remember when I was a boy I wasn't permitted to drive the +family car, in the broad sense. + +Mr. PIC. Right. He never swiped it. + +Mr. JENNER. I was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or +when my father was with me, I could drive it around the block or +something like that the way kids do. Was Robert permitted to do that on +a limited scale? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy +while you were still in Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. That picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That was before you enlisted? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert ever drive that? + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. In fact, I only drove +it a few times myself. This is the picture with the dog. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the picture of the car in John Pic's Exhibit No. 55? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee never drove it, to your knowledge? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your brother Robert interested in automobiles? + +Mr. PIC. All kids are interested in automobiles. + +Mr. JENNER. No; please--was he interested in automobiles? + +Mr. PIC. Sure, he wanted to drive. He seen I was driving so he wanted +to drive and he wasn't as old as I was, I was permitted to drive and he +wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. What about your brother Lee Harvey Oswald in that respect? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to +drive a car or not, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said on the day, Thanksgiving Day 1962, to +lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you right handed? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your brother Lee right or left handed? + +Mr. PIC. I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right +handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my +mother made him change. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion when +you saw him about his experiences in the Marines? + +Mr. PIC. There probably was, sir, but I don't remember what they +referred to. I know he told me he was at Atsugo Naval Air Station. This +I didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in Japan. I was +familiar with the Atsugo area. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the Philippines? + +Mr. PIC. Reading the magazine I now know that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything then? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; at that time I don't remember knowing that he had +been in the Philippines. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about ever having been in Formosa? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. Just Japan, I think possibly Korea, maybe, was +mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. But there was no discussion of his marine career to speak +of? + +Mr. PIC. He was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the subject arise of why he went to Russia? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That was not discussed at all? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said? Anything said about his experiences in +Russia prior to the time he became married there? + +Mr. PIC. No sir; he didn't mention that at all to me. + +Mr. JENNER. And anything said about his problems with the--I will +withdraw that. + +Was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to Russia? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. Why he did +it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and I didn't ask him. + +Mr. JENNER. During the several days you were in Fort Worth visiting +your brother Robert, did you and he go hunting? + +Mr. PIC. We went fishing, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Fishing? I take it you did not go hunting. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at that particular time. When I first went there +in 1958, we did go hunting. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. When you three boys were in Fort Worth, that is +before you enlisted in January 1950, did you boys occasionally go +hunting? + +Mr. PIC. We had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house. + +Mr. JENNER. So you did not go hunting? + +Mr. PIC. I didn't. Robert possibly did with some friends of his. I +don't think Lee ever did. We went fishing several times. + +Mr. JENNER. After you returned to this country in 1962, thereafter +there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when +you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was in 1958. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. When you were traveling across country to +California? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting +on his father-in-law's property. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of firearms? + +Mr. PIC. .22, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Single shot? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the +course of this Thanksgiving Day visit? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; Robert and I never brought her up in any +conversations we had. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about her? + +Mr. PIC. He mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with +her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or +two when he first came back, I don't remember. My wife later told me +that Marina couldn't get along with my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your +mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think it was Vada told my wife that Marina +couldn't. I think she rather observed this rather than being told by +Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. PIC. That the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that +Marina disliked her. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the course of that Thanksgiving Day, my brother +Robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. Lee made a phone +call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of +Russian descent, and that Marina often visited with them or talked with +them, so she could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy, +who was attending, I believe, the University of Oklahoma---- + +Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, I don't remember his name at all, because I was mad at +the time I was introduced to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Introduced to whom? + +Mr. PIC. This gentleman who picked him up. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a young man? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up +to this incident, and tell us all about the incident. + +Mr. PIC. Well, they made the phone call, and Lee said that they would +be picked up by their friends, and I think sometime between 6 and 7 +that night he came by. Now, my brother Robert, whenever he introduces +me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. Lee referred to me as +his half brother when he introduced me. + +Mr. JENNER. On this occasion? + +Mr. PIC. It was very pronounced. He wanted to let the man know I was +only his half brother. And this kind of peeved me a little bit. Because +we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. You never had that feeling? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time that your brother had ever +introduced you to anyone as his half brother? I am talking about your +brother Lee now. + +Mr. PIC. I think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever +introduced me to anyone. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your +half brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. His half brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that so? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that irritated you on this occasion? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Right then and there I had the feeling that the +hostile feeling was still there. Up until this time it didn't show +itself, but I felt then, well, he still felt the same way. + +Mr. JENNER. This young man from the University of Oklahoma, whose name, +by the way, was Gregory---- + +Mr. PIC. He was at the University of Oklahoma. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. I have said this three or four times, I wasn't certain, but +I am sure he was and I was introduced to him as Lee's half brother, +and the man was studying Russian at the school. His parents were from +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. He came alone, did he? + +Mr. PIC. The car was parked out front, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he was alone when he came in? + +Mr. PIC. He was in the house alone. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it night? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; it was dark between 6 and 7 in November. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go out to the car? + +Mr. PIC. No; I didn't. We stayed in the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Robert go out to the car? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina appear to be acquainted with this young man? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking Russian to +him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he respond in Russian? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee spoke to him in Russian? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you +in English as his half brother? + +Mr. PIC. Well, Lee would speak to him part Russian, part English. He +was only there maybe a couple or 3 minutes. I had the impression that +this gentleman could speak Russian better than Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. What gave you that impression? + +Mr. PIC. Because Lee wouldn't converse fully with him in Russian +whereas him and Marina did converse fully in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Any other impressions you got of this several hours visit +with your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. Well, right before they left, sir; I told him that if he needs +any help or anything, to let me know. I told him I was unable to help +him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished, +stay with us, talk like that. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. PIC. He said OK. He told me to write to him, and in this book, sir, +which I had there he wrote his post office box address in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. We will give that little book, to which you make reference, +John Pic Exhibit No. 60. + +(The document referred to was marked John Pic Exhibit No. 60 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. I have John Pic Exhibit No. 60 in my hand. What is this? + +Mr. PIC. A black memo book, I guess. + +Mr. JENNER. Of yours? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I had it in my car at the time. Whenever I travel I +keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which +there appear some figures, the letter "B" and then there are some +handwritings which appears to be Russian. I show that to you. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that? + +Mr. PIC. That is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing in this book? + +Mr. PIC. Only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of Marina +Oswald. This right here [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like +the letter "N" or "M" and the word right below that beginning with the +letter "D," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a +capital "H"? + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. The other ones are in my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. The others are all figures? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing that on the page? + +Mr. PIC. She being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field, +we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with +medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill +time with each other she and I seemed to be able to do this to some +degree. + +Mr. JENNER. That is to communicate? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she know some English terms in the pharmacy, medical +field? + +Mr. PIC. She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Just what was that writing, some medical terms? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I think these are names of drugs she was writing down. I +wouldn't know. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a large letter "B" on that page. How did that get +on there? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir. I wouldn't venture a +guess whose handwriting it is. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a square to the left of the handwriting in +Russian, what does that signify? + +Mr. PIC. This was placed there by the Secret Service, in San Antonio, +sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the +handwriting of Marina Oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of +myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. So that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that +is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your +handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And wherever the square appears that is Marina's +handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn the page over. On the reverse side of that page that +is all your handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. Except this up here, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of the previous page. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the front side of the next page which has +the letter "A" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. Is that +in your handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. Everything except this top portion, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The top portion? + +Mr. PIC. Starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. And then there is something above that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is that? + +Mr. PIC. I believe that to be Marina Oswald's, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Everything below that is yours? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The reverse side of that page, that is the +reverse side of the "A" page is in whose handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the page opposite that? + +Mr. PIC. That is in my handwriting, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of that page is blank. Then the face +of the next page is some figures and the words "Highway start, Fort +Worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing +we see thereafter is on the "C" page, some letters and a figure. Whose +handwriting is that? + +Mr. PIC. That is mine, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. Whose +handwriting is that? + +Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of my wife, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All of it? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she loves to write her name. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Then on the next to the last page in the book +which is a plain white page, appears P.O. Box 2195, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back +cover---- + +Mr. PIC. This is the identifying mark in the hand of Secret Service +Agent Ben A. Vidles, in San Antonio, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. This book is in the same condition now as it was? + +Mr. PIC. When I gave it to the Secret Service. + +Mr. JENNER. When you gave it to the Secret Service. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Plus the identifying marks you have described? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked +as "John Pic Exhibit No. 60." + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as John Pic Exhibit +No. 60 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter prior to November 22, up to but prior to +November 22, 1963, hear anything about your brother? + +Mr. PIC. The day or two after they left Robert and I went fishing. +While we were in the boat there was Robert, myself, and my oldest boy, +and at this time I asked him about Lee, I asked him if he considered +or thought that Lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was +getting along. Robert informed me that he had had seen FBI agents once +in awhile who said Lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing +to worry about. And all reports that he had had were favorable towards +Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert did tell you that the FBI had checked with him? + +Mr. PIC. He had seen an agent now and then, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate as to whether the FBI had come to visit +him or whether he had merely run into some FBI agent? + +Mr. PIC. I had the impression that they had visited him where he +worked, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything else about your brother from that +occasion up to but not including November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PIC. Well, other information I gathered from my talks with Robert +in those few days was that Lee and Marina made the trip to see them in +Fort Worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. It seems +that Vada and Marina were at one time, I was told, talking---- + +Mr. JENNER. By whom? + +Mr. PIC. By Vada, Marina was trying to make a point about her wedding +ring being she couldn't speak English, Vada got the impression that +Marina had been married before. + +Mr. JENNER. That Marina had been married before? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from Marina +flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. The four of us were +present, Robert, myself, and the two wives. But this was done over +coffee. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after Lee and Marina had left? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was after they had left. + +Mr. JENNER. What did Robert say on that subject, if anything? + +Mr. PIC. Nothing. That he didn't think she had been married before. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your brother Robert, and did he visit you +subsequent to that occasion on Thanksgiving up to but not including +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PIC. A couple or 3 days prior to Christmas of 1962, Robert and his +family returned the visit to our home in San Antonio, sir. I asked +Robert this time if he had seen or heard from Lee since we had last +seen him and he told me, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard +from Lee up to that time? + +Mr. PIC. It was really only a matter of 3 or 4 weeks at the most, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So it didn't occasion any surprise on your part? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you given any other information by Robert with respect +to Lee? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Robert again subsequent to this pre-Christmas +Party 1962? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And up to but not including November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PIC. I still haven't seen him since Christmas 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you corresponded? + +Mr. PIC. We have written a few letters, and I was permitted to make a +phone call to him right after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say in the course of that conversation? What +did you say? + +Mr. PIC. This was--I was permitted to make the phone call after Lee's +murder. The Secret Service said I could contact Robert. He had called +where I worked and left a number. I contacted the Secret Service. They +told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the +gist of the conversation. + +I called him up at this number. Someone answered the phone and I asked +for Robert and they called him to the phone. He told me that he and +his--told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, I +believe that is what he told me. That he was--he couldn't tell me where +he was but he was in Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Robert was? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; under custody of the Secret Service. + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this? + +Mr. PIC. This was Sunday, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The day of the death of your brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The 24th of November 1963? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What else was said? + +Mr. PIC. He told me that some local business people would make +arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. I +told him I was sorry it happened and everything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having seen your brother at the +Dallas City Police Station prior to this telephone conversation? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion in this telephone conversation +about the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. About the possible involvement of your brother in that +connection? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was confined largely, if not +exclusively, to the death of your brother? + +Mr. PIC. The conversation was just about as I related it, sir. It was +mostly confined to the death of Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. And his burial? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend the funeral services? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was not permitted. In fact, the Secret Service +did not let me write Robert for, I think, 7 to 8 days after the +assassination. At that time they granted me permission to freely +correspond with him. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did so? + +Mr. PIC. I think we have written about two, three letters back and +forth. I am the one who fails to write. He never fails to write. + +Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of these letters involved Lee; any of +them? + +Mr. PIC. I think the very first one I got concerned the welfare of his +family. They were out at the farm. That his company treated him very +good about all the time lost. That Marina asked about us and how we +were getting along. In my return letter to him I told him nobody had +bothered us and we were getting along just fine. He informed me that he +was--I suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile. +We had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back +and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the +incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without +losing his job. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen Marina in the meantime? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The last time you saw her, I take it, then, was +Thanksgiving Day 1962? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence between you? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any +fashion? + +Mr. PIC. My last letter I received from Robert was right after he +appeared here. He mentioned that Marina often asked about my wife +and I. Other than this, there has been no mention. He has mentioned +about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the +gravesite of Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Before I return to some specifics, is there anything else +that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you +would like to mention? + +Mr. PIC. The actual assassination, that time period or what, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, anything you think that might be relevant to the +Commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the +assassination of President Kennedy, any persons involved therein, the +subsequent death of your brother. + +Mr. PIC. Most of the information that I have seen and heard has been +all new to me, like his escapades in New Orleans, passing out the +leaflets and his radio program. + +Mr. JENNER. Those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until +after the assassination, I take it? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I assure you if I had known he was doing his +escapades again I would have went to the proper authorities about it. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first +Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages +of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your +attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the +page. Do you recognize the area shown there? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your +brother? + +Mr. PIC. This one here with the arrow. + +Mr. JENNER. The one that has the printed arrow? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you recognize that as your brother? + +Mr. PIC. Because they say so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say---- + +Mr. PIC. No; I couldn't recognize that. + +Mr. JENNER. Because this magazine says that it is. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after +studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother +now, I am talking about Lee. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In the upper portion there are a series of photographs +spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on +the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you +recognize the persons shown in that photograph? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize this photograph, the people from left to +right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the +third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas +when we returned from New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being +at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It was taken in Dallas at or about that time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young +boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a +striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to when and where that was +taken? + +Mr. PIC. Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second +grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it. + +Mr. JENNER. Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a +young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, +legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people +apparently in the background. + +Mr. PIC. I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as +to where that was taken? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the +upper portion of the--one young man at the bottom and then apparently a +young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either +of those young people? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing +in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do +you recognize that? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you +recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 284--do you recognize anybody in +that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a young fellow in the foreground--everybody else +is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you +recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; looking at that picture--and I have looked at it +several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my +recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, +there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in +that picture? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, +his profile. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is +pointing her finger at him? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to +bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither one of them? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert +rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never +guess that that would be Lee, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is in the lower left-hand +corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, +also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. PIC. That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I +seen him Thanksgiving 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. +289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as +your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I do not recognize them. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a +photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of +those persons? + +Mr. PIC. He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. + +Mr. JENNER. And the lady? + +Mr. PIC. She is his wife, Marina, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, +there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another +man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the +young man handing out the leaflet? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him. + +Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was your brother? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a +picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either +of those persons? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And the baby? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your +brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle +in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you +recognize that as your brother Lee? + +Mr. PIC. That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a duplicate of the picture on the cover. You have +produced for us a series of letters from your mother to yourself, from +your brother Lee to yourself, and from your brother Robert to yourself +which have been marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 6 through 47, inclusive. + +Did you assist Mr. Ely, in the preparation of this list of exhibits? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I arranged the stacks. He took it from the stacks I +arranged previously. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, then, John Pic Exhibit No. 6 +is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, postmarked May 8, 1950, +and its accompanying envelope as John Pic Exhibit No. 6-A. John Pic +Exhibit No. 7 is a letter from your mother to you, postmarked May 23, +1950, or the envelope is so postmarked. Its accompanying envelope being +marked John Pic Exhibit No. 7-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 8, a letter from +Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope, Exhibit No. 8-A, +postmarked at Fort Worth, May 24, 1950. + +By the way, Exhibit No. 6-A is postmarked Fort Worth. All of these +exhibits until I indicate otherwise from here on are marked with a +return address to M. Oswald, 9048 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. PIC. 7408. + +Mr. JENNER. What did I say? 7408; that is correct. You are right. + +Exhibit No. 9 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, +accompanying envelope is Exhibit No. 9-A postmarked June 9, 1950. + +Exhibit No. 10 and its reverse side, which is marked Exhibit No. 10-B, +is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope +marked John Pic Exhibit No. 10-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., on +August 23, 1950. This envelope has no return address on it. + +Exhibit No. 11 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic in an +envelope postmarked August 15, 1950, marked Exhibit No. 11-A. + +Exhibit No. 12 is a letter from Marguerite to John Pic enclosed in +envelope postmarked November 6, 1950, and identified as John Pic +Exhibit No. 12-A. + +The next is John Pic Exhibit No. 13, a letter from Marguerite Oswald +to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked December 13, 1950, the +envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 13-A. This does have the +return address Lee Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. + +The next is a short longhand note on a small sheet marked John Pic +Exhibit No. 14 which is undated, Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic, which +was enclosed with Exhibit No. 13. + +The next is a card, Christmas card, marked John Pic Exhibit No. 15, +inside cover of which in longhand says, "Dear Pic," and then there is +in longhand and pencil "I sure am sorry that you can't come home for +Christmas so I am sending you this fruitcake. Merry Christmas"--spelled +Mary--"from Lee." + +The next is John Pic No. 16, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John +Pic enclosed in envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 16-A and postmarked in +Fort Worth, April 16, 1951, with the usual return address. + +Exhibit No. 17 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed +in envelope postmarked at Fort Worth on April 23, 1951. That envelope +is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 17-A. The previous envelope in which +Exhibit No. 16 was enclosed was marked Exhibit No. 16-A. I will say for +the record in each instance where there is a letter accompanied by an +envelope, the envelope is marked with a letter "A" but with the same +number as the letter. + +Exhibit No. 18 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed +in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 18-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May +22, 1951. + +The next is Exhibit No. 19, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic +enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 19-A, postmarked at Fort +Worth on June 18, 1951. + +Exhibit No. 20 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic and +Exhibit No. 20-B is a birthday card from Marguerite. Both are enclosed +in an envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 20-A, postmarked at Fort +Worth, Tex., June 14, 1952, bearing the usual return address. + +Exhibit No. 21 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed +in an envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 21-A, postmarked Fort Worth, July +14, 1952, with the usual return address. + +The next is a letter without an envelope which is marked John Pic +Exhibit No. 22. The letter is dated May 10, 1954. + +The Exhibit No. 23 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic +enclosed is an envelope, Exhibit No. 23-A, postmarked in New Orleans on +June 14, 1954, containing the return address, M. Oswald, 1454 St. Mary, +New Orleans, La. + +The next is Exhibit No. 24; it is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to +John Pic enclosed in an envelope postmarked at New Orleans, October 14, +1954, which in turn is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 24-A. It contains +the return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. If I +neglected to do so, Exhibit No. 22 is the letter from Marguerite Oswald +to John Pic. + +Exhibit No. 25 also is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic +enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 25-A, postmarked at New +Orleans, La., on November 12, 1954, containing return address, M. +Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. + +Exhibit No. 26 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed +in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 26-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., +on November 11, 1954, return address, Mrs. M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New +Orleans, La. Mr. Pic, are Exhibits Nos. 6 and 6-A, 7 and 7-A, 8 and +8-A, 9 and 9-A, 10 and 10-A, 11 and 11-A--excuse me, strike out that 10 +and 10-A--11 and 11-A, 12 and 12-A, 16 and 16-A, 17 and 17-A, 18 and +18-A, 19 and 19-A, 20 and 20-A, 21 and 21-A, 22, 23 and 23-A, 24 and +24-A, 25 and 25-A, 26 and 26-A, all in the handwriting of your mother +Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And were those envelopes addressed to you at various places +you were then, that is as of the time they were postmarked received by +you at or about the postmarked dates or shortly thereafter which each +envelope bears? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There is one exhibit that doesn't have an envelope. Was +that letter received by you shortly after the date it bears? + +Mr. PIC. You refer to Exhibit No. 22, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. These are all, they all consist of correspondence from your +mother to you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And they happen to be correspondence which you have +retained over the years? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Except for the exhibit marks on those, they are in the same +condition now as they were at the time you received them and opened +them in the case of the envelopes? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that the letters are in the condition they were at the +time you read them? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Go back to Pic Exhibit No. 10, in whose handwriting is that +exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 10, sir, is in the handwriting of--there is +Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 10, I am referring to. + +Mr. PIC. They are both in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibits Nos. 10 and 10-A; correct? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. Exhibit No. 10 is +the insert in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A. + +Mr. JENNER. Then look at Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A. + +Mr. PIC. They are marked Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The contents are marked Exhibit No. 13. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is the envelope? + +Mr. PIC. Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. And whose handwriting is that which appears in the inside +of that card? + +Mr. PIC. My mother's, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald on that card? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The card was enclosed, was it in the exhibit marked John +Pic No. 13-A? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn to Exhibit No. 14. That is a note you received from +your brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in his handwriting? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It is undated. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have the envelope in which that was enclosed? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, it may be Exhibit No. 13-A, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 13-A? + +Mr. PIC. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 10-A, I don't know, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, it is in the handwriting of your brother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you received it in due course some time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. On or about the holiday period---- + +Mr. PIC. I would guess that Exhibit No. 15 goes in envelope Exhibit No. +13-A. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you put them in there? + +Mr. PIC. And the date on envelope Exhibit No. 13-A is 13 December, and +this is a Christmas card from Lee, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That Christmas card on the inside is the handwriting of +your mother, however? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the exhibit marked John Pic No. 14, do you +have a recollection as to the envelope in which that was enclosed? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to approximately when you +received it, that is John Pic Exhibit No. 14? + +Mr. PIC. I would speculate and say that Exhibit No. 10 goes in envelope +Exhibit No. 10-A, and that Exhibit No. 14 either came some little +period of time before or after the contents in envelope Exhibit No. +10-A. + +Mr. JENNER. That is while you were away at military school? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; this is when I am in the Coast Guard. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. All those exhibits I have now identified, that +is after I identified your mother's letters, are in the handwriting of +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. All except Exhibit No. 13, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Exhibit No. 13 is in the handwriting of your mother? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It appears to be and is a Christmas card? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From its contents are you able to tell us approximately +when you received that? + +Mr. PIC. It would be, I would say sometime after Christmas of 1950, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you put all those exhibits back in order? + +Mr. PIC. What belongs with what I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. Exhibits Nos. 13-A and 15 here, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You have already told us of Exhibits No. 13-A belonging +with Exhibit No. 15. You have also produced for us correspondence that +you happen still to have in your possession from your brother Robert +Oswald, have you not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I place that correspondence before you and ask you to +follow me as I place the exhibit numbers in the record. Exhibit No. 27 +is a letter from Robert to you. + +Mr. PIC. They are marked all with "B's." + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 27-B is a letter from your brother Robert to +you enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 27-A, postmarked October +1, 1952? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From where? + +Mr. PIC. U.S. Navy 14016, sir. Unit 1. + +Mr. JENNER. And to you at? + +Mr. PIC. At 325 East 92d Street, New York City, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 28-B is the contents of Exhibit No. 28-A, the +contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, the +envelope is postmarked June 9, 1954. + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is addressed to you where? + +Mr. PIC. U.S. Coast Guard Station, Staten Island, N.Y. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Exhibit No. 29-B is the contents of the envelope +marked Exhibit No. 29-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your +brother Robert to you, and the envelope being postmarked June 19, 1954. + +Mr. PIC. Plus a picture. + +Mr. JENNER. There is also enclosed in that envelope a picture? + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is marked---- + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 29-C. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 29-C. The picture is a picture of whom? + +Mr. PIC. Two what appear to be Marines, sir; the one on the left being +Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. May I see it, please, sir? Do you know the other Marine? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 30-A is an envelope postmarked December 13, +1954, its contents being a letter marked Exhibit No. 30-B, being a +letter from your brother Robert to you. + +Mr. PIC. Being a Christmas card, sir; with a letter written on the +Christmas card. + +Mr. JENNER. On the inside? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And some inscription, also, under the Christmas greetings? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for +the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the +contents in due course after they were posted? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession since that +time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you also produced for us some additional +correspondence between your mother and yourself? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Being exclusively letters from her to you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They being in the following series: Exhibit No. 31-A, an +envelope addressed to you postmarked June 3, 1950---- + +Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, Tex. What is the return address? + +Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to +you? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is marked Exhibit No. 31-B? + +Mr. PIC. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked +Exhibit No. 32-A. Is it postmarked? + +Mr. PIC. Partial postmark, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How much of it can you read? + +Mr. PIC. Texas 1950, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 32-B, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a letter from your mother to you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Enclosed with the envelope we have identified? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit is what? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-A, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Postmarked? + +Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, August 23, 1950. + +Mr. JENNER. What return address? + +Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. The contents have been marked? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-B, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The letter from your mother to you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Enclosed in that envelope? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Is just a letter dated Exhibit No. 34. + +Mr. PIC. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34. + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it dated? + +Mr. PIC. The only mention is the word Saturday, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It is undated? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It is in the handwriting of your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Some time or other? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did not retain the envelope? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you tell from its content approximately when you +received it? Was it after you entered the Coast Guard? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; definitely after I entered the Coast Guard, in fact +it mentions the Korean war, so it was after the onset of the Korean war. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, +the envelope being postmarked August 23, 1950, being the previous +exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The next exhibit. + +Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 35-A, sir, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex.; +return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the postmark date? + +Mr. PIC. September 22, 1950. + +Mr. JENNER. Contents marked? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 35-B, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Being a letter from your mother to you? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-A bearing the postmark 27 September 1950, +return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing Street, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And postmarked at Fort Worth? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; postmarked at Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked--what is the exhibit number on the +contents? + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-B, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. The next Exhibit No. 37-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +December 28, 1950, no return address. + +Mr. JENNER. The contents? + +Mr. PIC. Christmas card marked Exhibit No. 37-B with a short note. + +Mr. JENNER. In the handwriting of your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 38-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +January 19, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, +Tex. Contents of envelope marked Exhibit No. 38-B containing a letter +from my mother to myself. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 39-A postmarked Fort Worth Tex., April 6, +1951. The only thing made out on the return address is "M.O. 7408 Fort +Worth, Texas." + +Mr. JENNER. Contents? + +Mr. PIC. Contents Exhibit No. 39-B, a letter from my mother to myself, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 40-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +May 2, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, contents Exhibit +No. 40-B letter from my mother to myself, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 41-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +7 May 1951, return address 7408, Mrs. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort +Worth, Tex., contents letter marked Exhibit No. 41-B, a letter from my +mother to myself, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. A letter, envelope marked Exhibit No. 42-A postmarked Fort +Worth, Tex., June 4, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort +Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 42-B, letter from my mother to +myself, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 43-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +June 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., +contents marked Exhibit No. 43-B, a letter from my mother to myself, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 44-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +July 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., +contents marked Exhibit No. 44-B, a letter from my mother to myself, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 45-A, postmarked Fort Worth, +Tex., February 8, 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort +Worth, Tex. Contents Exhibit No. 45-B, a letter from my mother to +myself, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? + +Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 46-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., +May 8, 1952, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked +Exhibit No. 46-B, letter from my mother to myself. + +Mr. JENNER. The last of the series? + +Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 47-A, postmarked Fort Worth, +Tex., dated 5th of March 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, +Fort Worth, Tex. Contents marked Exhibit No. 47-A also. The letter from +my mother to myself. + +Mr. JENNER. OK, that is a mistake then. We will change that marking to +Exhibit No. 47-B, which I am now doing. + +The letters that have been identified with Exhibit No. 31-A and +concluding with Exhibit No. 47-B, are all in the handwriting of your +mother, are they not? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is correspondence which you received in due course +on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various +envelopes were postmarked? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession in the entire +time? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There is an exhibit still before you marked John Pic +Exhibit No.---- + +Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 59. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that? + +Mr. PIC. This appears to be a "shot" record of Lee Harvey Oswald +written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of August +7, 1951. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that come into your possession? + +Mr. PIC. It was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer those exhibits now commencing with Exhibit No. 31-A +to and including Exhibits Nos. 47-B, plus 59, in evidence. + +(The documents referred to were marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 31-A to +47-B, inclusive, and Exhibit No. 59 for identification and received in +evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we +appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals +back with you to San Antonio. Those exhibits consisting of the +photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated +and returned to you in due course. + +Mr. PIC. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Direct your attention, if you will, to Exhibit No. 9-A, an +envelope and its contents, Exhibit No. 9, this being a letter from Fort +Worth, June 9, 1950, to you at Brooklyn, N.Y. + +There is an inside page reading, "Mother called in on and told some of +my problems." Do you find that? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Uncle Dutz wired $75. That is your uncle Charles Murret? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And then it reads, "And Lee was invited to spend a couple +of weeks, so I sent him on the train by himself. To what is your mother +referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $75 by +your uncle? + +Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was +between jobs. Further down she states she is starting on a new job +Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. Does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered 3, +I believe, as McDonald Kitchens is the name? + +Mr. PIC. She first refers to it on the one where it begins, "Mother +called in on". + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Then there is a page numbered 3? + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Which referred to McDonald's Kitchens as the name and what +they do is cook food for commercial use? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. "I will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also." + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a job she was about to obtain? + +Mr. PIC. I can only assume from the letter, sir; I have no other +knowledge of that. + +Mr. JENNER. She makes a reference on that page "Haven't sold the house +as yet but have a good prospect." Calling your attention to the date, +June 9, 1950, what house was that? + +Mr. PIC. I am sure this refers to the little house in Benbrook, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It refers to people called DeLogans. Who are they? + +Mr. PIC. I assume these people were renting the house from her, I don't +remember them. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a duplex of some kind? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was this little L-shaped house. + +Mr. JENNER. In all this correspondence, Sergeant, by and large your +mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened +circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. +In your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the +subject and she raised the subject to you. Was that something that was +pretty constantly in her mind all the time? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she talk about that subject at times when you were of +the opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in +these letters? + +Mr. PIC. Will you repeat that, please, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please, Mr. Reporter. + +(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) + +Mr. PIC. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you of the opinion from time to time that on these +occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in +extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was +overstating this condition or status? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe she overstated it most of the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Because there were purchases of houses, at least on the +installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she +not? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or +other. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to why she was doing this; to +impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait? + +Mr. PIC. It is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit +on every deal she got involved with. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of a house sale as such. But that +question was more directed to her talking about her financial +circumstances. + +Was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself +to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you +appeared to be, and that sort of thing? + +Mr. PIC. That is practically verbatim, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you +have uttered what was in her mind? + +Mr. PIC. No; just about what she says. She said at those times. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you under the impression that she was overstating in +that respect? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise the feeling of your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, I am sure it was. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether your mother was +always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter? + +Mr. PIC. My opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was +getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. This is +her god, so to speak, was to get money. And to get as much out of me as +she could and as much out of Robert as she could. + +Mr. JENNER. And as much out of anybody else as she could? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any--you talk about the difficulties with Mr. +Ekdahl. Do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any +dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by +Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. That was +the basis of all the arguments. + +Mr. JENNER. And was she complaining to him that he didn't give her +enough money? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother an extravagant person money-wise? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know what she did with the money, sir. She bought very +little as far as clothes and things. We didn't eat steak every day. +We didn't eat that good. In fact, when I joined the service in 1950, +I was 118 pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about 130, +140. I think within a month or two after I joined the service I was up +to 145 and none of my uniforms fit me. I was--there is a picture of me +in the Pasqual High School thing, and I am very thin. People couldn't +recognize me from that picture. I lost a lot of weight working, and not +eating too good. I would come home and have to fix my own meals. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother attentive in that respect? Did she go out +of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home +either after work or after school or otherwise? + +Mr. PIC. If there was a majority eating there was usually something set +aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the member of the family who was absent at +mealtime she would save something for him? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due +course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at +times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. These continued references by her to her financial needs, +did you think that had an effect on Lee as well as on yourself and your +brother? + +Mr. PIC. It didn't affect me that much. I ignored most of them. If I +had money I sent it. If I didn't, that was it. Lee was brought up in +this atmosphere of constant money problems, and I am sure it had quite +an effect on him, and also Robert. + +Mr. JENNER. In her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked June 18, +1951---- + +Mr. PIC. What number is that, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibits Nos. 19 and 19-A--she makes reference that +Robert has been saving his money since January to buy a car and "gives +me $15 a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is +he tight) but he has saved $210 since the first of the year and is +hiding"---- + +Mr. PIC. Hitting. + +Mr. JENNER. "For $400" and so on. + +Mr. PIC. Before buying a car. + +Mr. JENNER. "Won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. +He gets 2 weeks vacation with pay, I believe, will start in July." + +Do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you? + +Mr. PIC. When I went home on leave in 1950 with a hundred or so +dollars, like I mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the +whole amount except for about $10 from me, so nothing would happen to +it, and I might get robbed or something, she felt. Whenever she could +she attempted to get a buck out of any of us. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get any of that money back? + +Mr. PIC. I got it all back and subsequently when I left I gave her, I +think $50 or so. + +Mr. JENNER. In that same letter she refers to, she said, "I only made +$92 last month and am just starting to get leads. I am back with the +same company." + +To what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked +June 18, 1951? + +Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. It sounds to me like it would be an +insurance company. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother selling insurance? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I knew approximately at this time period she sold +insurance. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a reference to Lee taking tap dancing lessons, +also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it +would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little +older take voice." + +Mr. PIC. I think this statement here about this practically like +several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an +attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something +else. Of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time I write +I will say, "Hurrah, hurrah, Lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" +and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a +little money to help him. She did these things. In fact, in some of +her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because I +stated I would help pay for the car and since I was in the service I +wasn't holding up my end of the bargain. + +Mr. JENNER. What about that incident? + +Mr. PIC. Sir, that is in the second group of letters. + +Mr. JENNER. What about this particular incident you mentioned? What are +the facts about that? + +Mr. PIC. Just what it states here. This is all I know, sir. What it +states in this letter. + +Mr. JENNER. About the dancing and voice? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of Lee, other than this letter of Lee +taking dancing lessons? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons +than in this letter? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did either you or Robert ever take dancing lessons or voice +lessons? + +Mr. PIC. I think when we were very small and Mr. Oswald was still alive +we did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the other thing to which I referred, as you made +reference to something about making payments on a car. What was that +about? + +Mr. PIC. That would be in that second group, sir. In the second group +is really the financial statements. Every one of them contained +something pertaining to her finances. + +Mr. JENNER. The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee--do +you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent +references, allusions to finances? + +Mr. PIC. I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year +after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter +of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an +allotment to her and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and +Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this +subject? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a +feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing +them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly +or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly +dealt with in her life? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had that very definite impression? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had---- + +Mr. PIC. I did not have this impression. She related this to me, sir. I +didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I am getting at, this was an impression she +was seeking to create. + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You felt she did not have it any tougher. She was creating +an impression that did not square with the facts? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Every time she met anyone she would remind them she +was a widow with three children. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere +in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality? + +Mr. PIC. I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I +joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, +almost 11 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed? + +Mr. PIC. In the same bed, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or say when Lee came and stayed with you +a short while in 1952 did he likewise sleep with your mother? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. He had reached a measure of independence by that time? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when I left and went into the service there was a +vacant bed in the house. + +Mr. JENNER. And at that time was that literally the first time that Lee +had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that +Mr. Ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather +Lee Oswald was alive? + +Mr. PIC. Lee wasn't born when Lee Oswald was alive, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. Well, then, except for the time Mr. Ekdahl +lived with you? + +Mr. PIC. That is true, sir. That would make him about 10-1/2 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time he was 10-1/2 years old, why he roomed and +slept with his mother in the same bed? + +Mr. PIC. I would like to interject here. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am seeking something of the personality of your +mother and the effect on you, had an effect on Robert, and probably a +more material effect on Lee, is that correct? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for +the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high +school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard--at that +time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until +the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if +she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't +need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed +their mother's consent to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. I +know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of +the Department of Defense at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the +second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday +morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. +I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting +married, and"--would you read the rest of it? + +Mr. PIC. "And probably having to go just the same." + +Mr. JENNER. "And then probably having to go just the same." Is that the +incident in which your mother opposed your brother Robert's marriage to +the little crippled girl? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn to Exhibit No. 24. There is a reference there to a +lady, Ethel somebody at Holmes. Would you read that? + +Mr. PIC. "Ethel Nunncy at Holmes asks about you." + +Mr. JENNER. And that is--Holmes is a department store? + +Mr. PIC. In New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was Ethel Nunncy? + +Mr. PIC. She was a friend of my mother's, sir, that I had known of +since I was a small--I was a baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Sir, this Exchange Alley--did they have to live under these +conditions? + +Mr. PIC. All I know is that they lived there. She thought they did. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 31-B which is a letter from your mother to you +postmarked at Fort Worth, June 3, 1950, reading "Dear John, your sense +of responsibility seems nil" or null. + +Mr. PIC. Nil, null. + +Mr. JENNER. N-u-l-l. "Remember it was you insisted I buy the car as you +planned to work at Consolidated. Well I have been in a jam financially +ever since you left." What is the next word? + +Mr. PIC. "Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul." + +Mr. JENNER. "Until you were"---- + +Mr. PIC. Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul until you were +finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would +send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month." + +Mr. JENNER. Had you so indicated? + +Mr. PIC. I don't believe so, sir. I don't see how, I wasn't making but +$80 per month. + +Mr. JENNER. What truth was there in her statement that it was you who +insisted that she buy the car? + +Mr. PIC. Well, that old jalopy I have a picture of was falling apart +and before I went in the service she had a ride home from work and the +generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it +just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that particular car about which you have just +described--about which you were having trouble--was that the family +car or a car owned by you? + +Mr. PIC. A family car, I never owned a car, sir, when I lived at home. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace +that one? + +Mr. PIC. We all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't +run. She had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. She would +have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car +pushed. + +Further on, sir, "I wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $50 +on my ring. I lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." Sir, I wouldn't +believe that. I am sure at that time I didn't. And the way she goes on +the next page, "Cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. I +don't believe this. + +Mr. JENNER. The next letter, Exhibit No. 32-B, and in an envelope +marked in 1950, it says "Dear John, Well, I have the house in Benbrook +up for sale." Could you read the name? + +Mr. PIC. It appears to me to be J. Piner Powell Real Estate is handling +it. Do you want me to read on? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. PIC. "The problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan +company won't make a new loan and I have about $2,600 in it. Nothing +but bad news. Up to date I am still not working." Read on, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. That is about enough. Did your mother write you a letter +that had good news in it? + +Mr. PIC. I never recall one, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Around your home was the atmosphere that, "We are poor +but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to +accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn +out all right eventually? + +Mr. PIC. None of us really paid much attention to this, sir. I didn't, +and I am sure Robert didn't. I don't think Lee did because Robert and I +would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard it so often you just became inured to it, +hardened to it; is that it? + +Mr. PIC. Well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. +Just like when my wife and I got married she sent a package containing +Revere Ware which I haven't received yet and she swears up and down she +sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. And I +know she never sent anything. When we would be home alone, before she +would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as +soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your---- + +Mr. PIC. This is prior to my going in the service, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There were times that the atmosphere around your home was +depressing? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that due largely to your mother? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The things she said and the attitudes she assumed? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And while you and your brother got along well you boys were +not getting along well with your mother in that sense? + +Mr. PIC. Robert and I and Lee, we had our fights among us, like all +brothers do. But we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but +the atmosphere just changed when she was around. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything about whether people +liked her or disliked her? + +Mr. PIC. She didn't have to. She didn't have many friends and usually +the new friends she made she didn't keep very long. + +Mr. JENNER. That was her history? + +Mr. PIC. I remember every time we moved she always had fights with the +neighbors or something or another. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she a person who was resentful of the status of others? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you boys were aware of that, were you? + +Mr. PIC. I was aware of it. She always--I remember once when we lived +on Eighth Avenue, I believe was the place, the people named McLean +living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and +they had some money, and my mother---- + +Mr. JENNER. What town was this? + +Mr. PIC. This was Fort Worth, sir. My mother remarked to me once that +Mrs. McLean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost +$100 in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an +hour about how this woman could go and waste $100 and what she could do +with it and everything. She resented the fact this woman lost her own +money. + +Mr. JENNER. I haven't found a single letter yet, Sergeant, in which +your mother fails to mention the subject of money. + +Mr. PIC. You may find a Christmas card, "Love, Mother," sir. + +Mr. JENNER. A letter? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't think you will. These are only part of +them. I threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. They were all +basically the same. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys? + +Mr. PIC. I would say for myself, sir, I wasn't to her. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that? + +Mr. PIC. I was not toward her. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. PIC. I had no motherly love feeling toward her. Like I say, I think +I first became resentful to her when she informed me I would not return +to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward +your mother? + +Mr. PIC. We had never been in a very affectionate family, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your +mother? + +Mr. PIC. That is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. It +is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as +she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the only +thing--I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I +think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I +think she is a phony in the whole deal. + +Also, I think you will find with myself, Robert and Lee, also, that we +didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she +does. I mean I live on my base pay and I have for years, and Robert +makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never +discuss money. The only time I seen Lee as an adult he didn't discuss +it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your information, is it, that your mother's first +marriage was to your father? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Her second, then, to Robert Lee Edward Oswald? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And her third to E. A. Ekdahl? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So far as you know she has not been married otherwise than +those three occasions? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; Has she? + +Mr. JENNER. We don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it. + +Did your brother Lee on the occasion on Thanksgiving Day 1962 say +anything about whether he had had a hard time in Russia? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a hard time in the sense of earning a living? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or some other sense? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; earning a living. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you recall he said in that connection? + +Mr. PIC. That he made about $80 a month, and it wasn't the money so +much. It was the products were not available to him and also his wife +to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he +was tired of cabbage, and he struck me he was not complaining about +the money but the availability of food. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with +Russia? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I got this impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys +in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the United States or its +Government? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He made no comment on that subject when you saw him on +Thanksgiving Day 1962? + +Mr. PIC. I think his only bitter feelings that I recollect was his +dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps. This was the only bitter +feelings he reported to me in anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you tell us what he said as--did he +return to that subject repeatedly? What leads you now to conclude or +state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that? + +Mr. PIC. I think the idea of driving came up, the talk about +automobiles. I also think that he made the statement---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say that is your present recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. PIC. I also think that he made the statement that he---- + +Mr. JENNER. Here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the +statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he +received. He was unable to obtain a driver's license. Then he told +me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several +letters to the Secretary of the Navy about getting it changed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the then Governor Connally in that +connection? + +Mr. PIC. I believe he did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Governor Connally was not then Secretary of the Navy. Did +he express any resentment toward Governor Connally? + +Mr. PIC. I think when he explained it to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Please, you have said again "I think." + +Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to +me that he had written to get it changed, Governor Connally was the +Secretary of the Navy. He did mention the name Connally. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or get the impression that he +was bitter toward Governor Connally as a person? He was not, then, of +course---- + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Secretary of the Navy. + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the +man he had written it to. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Fair Play for Cuba Committee on +this occasion? + +Mr. PIC. There was no discussion about Cuba. I think this was right +after the Cuban crisis, and I think we may have talked about the +mobilization a little bit. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views on that subject? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy discussed at anytime? + +Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir. + +He struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: One, +to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay +back the Government the money it had lent him to come back to the +United States. + +Mr. JENNER. You were interested--Charlie Murret was a dentist and +a graduate of Louisiana State University. Joyce Murret married an +athletic coach and lives in Beaumont, Tex.? + +Mr. PIC. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Gene Murret you have mentioned. He is a seminarian at +Mobile, Ala. Boogie Murret works for Squibb & Co. He is a graduate of +Loyola of New Orleans. + +Mr. PIC. Someone mentioned, I don't know if it was Vada or my brother, +Robert---- + +Mr. JENNER. On this Thanksgiving Day occasion? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; after they had left, that Marina's uncle, brother, some +relation, was an officer in the Russian Army. She had stated she had a +relative in the Soviet armed forces. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that either Vada had or Robert had? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Some of the witnesses have testified that Lee was quick +to anger as a boy. Do you remember anything about that? What is your +impression about that? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a considerate young man? + +Mr. PIC. I think towards Robert and myself he was, sir. Towards other +people, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Was his attitude towards other people different from that +which he had toward you and Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. In what respect--what did you notice about him in that +regard? + +Mr. PIC. He would rather play with us than play with other children, +and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. Whenever we had +a birthday or Christmas he would never forget us. I think he was very +considerate towards Robert and myself. + +Mr. JENNER. From time to time we have been off the record and had some +discussions in discussing documents and other things. Do you recall +anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here +that I have failed to place on the record? + +Mr. PIC. I don't remember what has been off the record, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would +like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you +that you think you would like to have on the record? + +Mr. PIC. If you are interested in my opinions---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; anything that you want to add. + +Mr. PIC. I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is +accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a +little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she +presented to him. I also think that his reason for leaving the Marine +Corps is not true and accurate. I mean I don't think he cared to get +out of the Marine Corps to help his mother. He probably used this as an +excuse to get out and go to his defection. + +I know myself I wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, +and I am sure Robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that +Lee wouldn't have. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do +you recall, rather? + +Mr. PIC. I think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But then in the later grades, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th? + +Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that is about all. I sure appreciate your coming, and +the Commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. You will be +able to catch that 9:50 plane in the morning and get yourself back to +your son's birthday party. + +Mr. PIC. I hope what I have told you has been something new and not +repetitious. + +Mr. JENNER. Much of what you have told us has been new. Much of +what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of +corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in +doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to +your brother have been helpful. + +That leads me to ask you this further question: Give me your overall +impression of your brother Lee Oswald as a personality, as he developed. + +Mr. PIC. Sir; I remember Lee Oswald as a child, up until about the age +of 11 or 12. To me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would +get in fights and still have his serious moments. + +Mr. JENNER. You got in fights, too, didn't you? + +Mr. PIC. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother Robert? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. These are not fights that you would regard as other than +boys getting into? + +Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mr. PIC. He got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as +getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, +normal healthy boy. + +I think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became +slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. He never showed any +of this toward Robert or myself. I am afraid it probably rubbed off of +Robert and myself and it affected Lee, because we didn't really take +much stock into what she was saying. I don't think we were as cocky, as +belligerent as he was. There was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything around your home about +that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor +working people or anything along those lines? + +Mr. PIC. No; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide +for us three boys. She couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and +support her. + +When Lee visited us in New York he came there a friendly, nice +easy-to-like kid. + +Mr. JENNER. This is 1952 in the summer? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the Museum +of Natural History, sightseeing excursions and so forth. Until the +incident where I talked to him we never had a bad word between us other +than maybe joking or playing around. I tried to interest him in a hobby +of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had he been interested in those two hobbies? + +Mr. PIC. Yes; he and I, all three of us collected stamps. I played +chess with Lee quite a bit and Robert, too. We all did this. Played +monopoly together, the three of us. + +When I approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very +hostile towards me. And he was never the same again with me. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the first time he had ever been hostile in that +sense towards you? + +Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that rupture was never repaired thereafter? + +Mr. PIC. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression when you saw him on +Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, +resentful of his station? + +Mr. PIC. Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 +was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This +person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these +purposes I mentioned, to do something about. + +Mr. JENNER. What purposes? + +Mr. PIC. To repay the Government and get his discharge changed. + +It appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not +knowing the conversation between he and his wife I couldn't form much +of an opinion there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir; that is about it. + +Mr. PIC. OK, sir; thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. This transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it +will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it +immediately and read it and sign it. + +If you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the +correction, or over, above, your initial somewhere around the +correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as +promptly as possible. + +It may be that the Secret Service will bring it out, but it will be +delivered to you next week. + +All right. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by Edward John Pic, Jr., on June +16, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +Edward John Pic, Jr., 6 Jay Street, New Orleans, La., being duly sworn +says: + +1. I am the same Edward John Pic, Jr., who was deposed by Albert E. +Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the President's Commission +on the Assassination of President Kennedy, on April 7, 1964. When +Marguerite Claverie Pic and I separated after we had lived together a +year, we resided in a house on Genois Street, south of Canal Street, +in New Orleans. This was a rented house. The rent was either $28 or +$30 per month. At no time prior to our separation did Marguerite work. +During all of that period she was a housewife. + +2. I neither refused nor failed to support her either during or after +our marriage. There were personality and incompatibility difficulties +between us commencing at an early stage of our marriage. We just +couldn't get along, things kept getting worse and worse. Marguerite +was aware of my earning capacity at the time we married. There were +difficulties between us respecting money and household financial +management, but this was only one of the sources of the difficulties. +My financial situation did not worsen after our marriage. + +3. Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic was not the cause +of our separation. I had no objection to children. It was a coincidence +that about that time we had reached the point that we could not make +a go with each other any more. Our separation which was amicable +and which was arranged through an attorney would have taken place +irrespective of Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic. + +4. As I testified in my deposition, Marguerite was a nice girl. I +haven't anything whatsoever adverse to say against her, it is just that +we couldn't get along. Our dispositions would not jell. I do not mean +to imply that the fault, if any, lay with either of us. We just didn't +get along. + +5. My distinct recollection is that I had no difficulty maintaining the +household and supporting my family though there was some difference +between Marguerite and me as to the manner, style and the level on +which our household should be maintained. + +Signed the 16th day of June 1964. + + (S) Edward John Pic, Jr., + EDWARD JOHN PIC, Jr. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF KERRY WENDELL THORNLEY + +The testimony of Kerry Wendell Thornley was taken at 9:40 a.m., on May +18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John +Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, in the deposition you are about to give, do +you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. You are Kerry Wendell Thornley, spelled K-e-r-r-y +W-e-n-d-e-l-l T-h-o-r-n-l-e-y? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, where do you reside now? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At 4201 South 31st Street in Arlington, Va. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you at one time reside at 1824 Dauphine Street in New +Orleans? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your present occupation? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I am a doorman at the building where I reside, +Shirlington House. + +Mr. JENNER. Doorman. + +Mr. THORNLEY. At the building where I reside. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the name of that building? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Shirlington House. I also work on the switchboard there +three nights a week. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mr. Thornley, you received, did you not, +a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission in +which he enclosed---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. Confirming this appointment---- + +Mr. JENNER. Copies of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, +authorizing the creation of the Commission and President Johnson's +Order 11130, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its +powers and duties and responsibilities? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And also a copy of the rules and regulations of the +Commission for the taking of depositions? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you understand the basic obligation placed +upon the Commission is to investigate the facts and circumstances +surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of President Kennedy, +and events collateral thereto. + +In the course of doing that the Commission and its staff, and I, Albert +E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the Commission legal staff, have been +interviewing and taking the testimony of various persons who, among +other things, came in contact with a man named Lee Harvey Oswald. We +understand that you had some contact with him, fortuitous or otherwise +as it might be. Are we correct in that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the--may I ask you this first. Were you +born and reared in this country? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you married or unmarried? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Unmarried. + +Mr. JENNER. Unmarried you said? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your age? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I am 26. + +Mr. JENNER. When was your birthday? + +Mr. THORNLEY. April 17, this last month. + +Mr. JENNER. April 17 of this last month? I am poor in mathematics, what +year was your birth? + +Mr. THORNLEY. 1938. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was--it was around Easter of 1959, either shortly +before or shortly after. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see. He was in the Marines at that time? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you also were? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How long had you been in the Marines? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At that time I had been in the Marines over half a year. +I had been in the Reserve for many years. I had been on active duty for +over half a year. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then 21 years of age? + +Mr. THORNLEY. About; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about what your occupation and activity had been up +to the time you enlisted in the Marines. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the year before I was a student at the University +of Southern California, and before that I was a student at California +High School in Whittier, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then that you are a native Californian? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive your degree? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. I was--I completed my freshman year and then I went +on active duty to serve my 2-year obligation in the Marine Reserve. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not return to college after you were mustered out +of the Marines? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your discharge honorable? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you based when you first met Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At a subsidiary of El Toro Marine Base, referred to as +LTA, Santa Ana, Calif., or just outside of Santa Ana. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At that time I was acting corporal. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment then? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was an aviation electronics operator. I was working in +an aircraft control center reading radarscopes and keeping track of +ingoing and outgoing flights. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's assignment and activity +service-wise at that period? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At that time his assignments and activities were primary +janitorial. He was--he had lost his clearance previously, and if I +remember, he was assigned to make the coffee, mow the lawn, swab down +decks, and things of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances as you learned of them, or knew +of them at the time, as to how or why he lost his clearance as you put +it. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I asked somebody, and I was told, and I don't +remember who told me, it was a general rumor, general scuttlebutt +at the time, that he had poured beer over a staff NCO's head in an +enlisted club in Japan, and had been put in the brig for that, and +having been put in the brig would automatically lose his clearance to +work in the electronics control center. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you what losing clearance meant. You +have indicated that--or would you state it more specifically. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, that meant in a practical sense, that meant that he +was not permitted to enter certain areas wherein the equipment, in this +case equipment, was kept; that we would not want other unauthorized +persons to have knowledge of. And on occasion information, I imagine, +would also come to the man who was cleared, in the process of his work, +that he would be expected to keep to himself. + +Mr. JENNER. I assume you had clearance? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; I was, I think, cleared for confidential at the +time. + +Mr. JENNER. Cleared for confidential. I was about to ask you what level +of clearance was involved. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I believe it was just confidential to work there at El +Toro on that particular equipment. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the clearance about which you speak when you talk +about Oswald having lost it? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Oswald, I believe, had a higher clearance. This is also +just based upon rumor. I believe he at one time worked in the security +files, it is the S & C files, somewhere either at LTA or at El Toro. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever work in the security files? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was a level of clearance---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. Probably a secret clearance would be required. + +Mr. JENNER. It was at least higher than the clearance about which you +first spoke? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The clearance that you had in mind of which you first spoke +was the clearance to operate radar detection devices? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And your knowledge of his loss of clearance was by hearsay +or rumor. As I understand it the circumstances took place off base one +day? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; this was on base as I understand it. It was in an +enlisted club or staff sergeant's club, something of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. He had gotten into difficulty with a staff sergeant and had +poured beer on the person of a staff sergeant and gotten into some kind +of an altercation? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As a result of that he was court-martialed and had been +subjected to the loss of clearance? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that clearance of his restored? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I doubt it very much, because 3 months afterwards, after +I had left the outfit--I know it wasn't restored while I was in the +outfit. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you leave the outfit? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I left in June and went overseas. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to that time his clearance had not been restored? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not. And shortly thereafter he got out of the +service. + +Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you have any personal knowledge Oswald +never operated any radar equipment while he was at El Toro, did you say? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; El Toro, LTA. As far as my personal knowledge goes, +he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state the circumstances under which you became +acquainted--let me put it this way first. What was the extent of your +acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, and here at the moment I am +directing myself only to whether you were friends, were you merely +on the base together? Indicate the level of friendship first or +acquaintanceship. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say we were close acquaintances in the sense that +we weren't friends in that we didn't pull liberty together or seek +each other out, yet when we were thrown together in an assignment or +something, moving equipment, something of that nature, we spoke and +when we were on the base and happened to be in the same area and were +not required to be working, we would sometimes sit down and discuss +things. That would be my statement there. + +Mr. JENNER. So there was a degree of affinity in the sense that you +were friendly in performing your military tasks together whenever you +were thrown together in that respect. You felt friendly toward each +other. You were never off base with him on liberty? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There were times when you were at liberty on the base, I +assume, and you and he fraternized? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you live in the same quarters? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, not actually. We lived in quonset huts there, and +he lived in a different hut than I did. We did live in the same general +area, however. + +Mr. JENNER. This acquaintance arose in the spring of 1959, is that +correct? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time a little more definitely than merely +the spring? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I really can't, sir. I have been racking my brain on +that one since November, and I can't fix the time. I do remember +having taken some time off that year around Easter and going on a trip +with some civilian friends of mine, who were out of school for Easter +vacation, and I know I was in the outfit that Oswald was in at that +time, and I know that either shortly before that trip or shortly +afterwards. I can remember from the books I was reading at the time and +things like that, that I met him. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you associate the books you were reading at that time +with anything Oswald may have been reading? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Oswald was not reading but did advise me to read +George Orwell's "1984" which I read at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he on the base when you came there? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I was on the base in a different outfit before I +came into MACS 9, the outfit I was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Marine Air Control Squadron. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was in MACS 4 which was right next door to MACS 9 or +was at that time, on the base. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of his presence when you were in the other +MACS? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; not until I came into his outfit. And only sometime +after I came into that outfit did I become aware of his presence. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you--I will withdraw that. Was Oswald as far as you +knew on the base before you came over to his unit? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would assume so, but I wouldn't know for sure. I know +he was recently back from Japan as were most of the men in Marine +Control Squadron 9 when I came into it. How long he had been back I +don't know. I certainly didn't know at that time. And thinking on what +knowledge of him I have gained since then, I still couldn't say. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, in any event you first became acquainted with or +aware of his presence around Easter time in 1959? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were transferred from that base when? + +Mr. THORNLEY. June. + +Mr. JENNER. In June. So likely it was that you knew him in April, May, +and in June until you were transferred out? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. When in June were you transferred out? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Once again the exact date would be available in my +military record, but offhand---- + +Mr. JENNER. Give it to me as best you recall it, forepart, latter part, +middle? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Let's see, it was toward the latter part. In fact, I can +give you pretty close to the exact date. It was around June 25, because +we arrived in Japan on July 4 and it took 11 days to get over there. It +took us some time to get debarked or to get embarked, rather. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I take it from the remark you have made in your +reflecting on this matter that you were--you devoted yourself to some +fairly considerable extent to reading? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And in what fields? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Completely omniverous. Anything that I would happen +to get a hold of I would read. At that time I was reading, well, at +Oswald's advice I read "1984." At someone else's advice I was reading +a book called "Humanism," by Corliss Lamont, as I remember, and I was +reading either "The Brothers Karamazov" or the "Idiot" by Dostoievsky, +I forget which, at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. But your reading had some reasonable amount of organization +or direction? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever; no, sir. It never has. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. You weren't engaged in any organized reading at that +time, were you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But there were areas which did draw your attention by and +large? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What were those areas? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Philosophy, politics, religion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you find that Oswald had reasonably similar interests? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. In his reading? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I would say particularly in politics and philosophy. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it those mutual interests that brought about your +acquaintance with him or some other fashion? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; it was those interests. My first memory of him +is that one afternoon he was sitting on a bucket out in front of a +hut, an inverted bucket, with some other Marines. They were discussing +religion. I entered the discussion. It was known already in the outfit +that I was an atheist. Immediately somebody pointed out to me that +Oswald was also an atheist. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they point that out to you in his presence? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What reaction did he have to that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He said, "What do you think of communism?" and I said---- + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything about having been pointed out as +being an atheist? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; he wasn't offended at this at all. He was--it was +done in a friendly manner, anyway, and he just said to me--the first +thing he said to me was with his little grin; he looked at me and he +said, "What do you think of communism?" And I replied I didn't think +too much of communism, in a favorable sense, and he said, "Well, I +think the best religion is communism." And I got the impression at +the time that he said this in order to shock. He was playing to the +galleries, I felt. + +Mr. JENNER. The boys who were sitting around? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Engaged in scuttlebutt? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. He was smirking as he said this and he said it +very gently. He didn't seem to be a glass-eyed fanatic by any means. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to discuss the same subject +thereafter? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From time to time? + +Mr. THORNLEY. From time to time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it reasonably frequent? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say about a half dozen times in that time period. + +Mr. JENNER. In those subsequent discussions were some of them private +in the sense you were not gathered around with others? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't recall us ever having a private serious +discussion. A couple of times we were working together. There would be +others around, not on a constant basis anyway, but coming and going, +and as I recall a couple of times we were thrown together. Working +together, we weren't having a serious discussion; we were joking. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion in those additional half dozen +instances of discussions with him, the viewpoint you have just +expressed, that is, that his initial raising of the issue was more by +way of provoking or shocking those about him rather than any utterances +on his part of sincerity in a belief that communism was itself a +religion? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It became obvious to me after a while, in talking to +him, that definitely he thought that communism was the best--that the +Marxist morality was the most rational morality to follow that he knew +of. And that communism was the best system in the world. + +I still certainly wouldn't--wouldn't have predicted, for example, his +defection to the Soviet Union, because once again he seemed idle in his +admiration for communism. He didn't seem to be an activist. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain what you mean by idle in his admiration +of the communistic system? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, it seemed to be theoretical. It seemed strictly a +dispassionate appraisal--I did know at the time that he was learning +the Russian language. I knew he was subscribing to Pravda or a Russian +newspaper of some kind from Moscow. All of this I took as a sign of his +interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to +the Communist ends. + +Mr. JENNER. You felt there was no devotion there. That it was somewhat +of an intellectual interest, a curiosity. But I don't want to put words +in your mouth, so tell me. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I wouldn't put it quite that weakly. While I didn't feel +there was any rabid devotion there, I wouldn't call it a complete idle +curiosity either. I would call it a definite interest. + +Mr. JENNER. A definite interest. + +Mr. THORNLEY. But not a fanatical devotion. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you knew at that time that he was studying +Russian. How did you become aware of that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Probably by hearsay once again. I do remember one time +hearing the comment made by one man in the outfit that there was some +other man in the outfit who was taking a Russian newspaper and who was +a Communist and when I said, "Well, who is that?" he said, "Oswald," +and I said, "Oh, well." That is probably where I learned it. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that he was a subscriber to Pravda and +the other Russian publications you have mentioned? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't think--it was either Pravda or some other +Russian publication. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. THORNLEY. The way I learned that was a story that I believe Bud +Simco, a friend of mine in the same outfit, in the outfit at the same +time, told me that one time a lieutenant, and I forget which lieutenant +it was (I do remember at the time I did know who he was talking about) +found out that Oswald, by--he happened to be in the mailroom or +something, and saw a paper with Oswald's address on it. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the officer happened to be in the mailroom? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; and that it was written--he noticed this paper was +written in Russian and at the time got very excited, attempted to +draw this to the attention of Oswald's section chief, the commanding +officer, and, of course, there was nothing these people could do +about it, and at the time the story was related to me. I remember +I thought it was rather humorous that this young, either second or +first lieutenant should get so excited because Oswald happened to be +subscribing to a Russian newspaper. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this lieutenant's name Delprado? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I will bet it was. That is very familiar. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever subscribed to a Russian language newspaper or +other publications? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Other Russian publications? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever subscribed to a publication that was printed +in the Russian language? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been a subscriber to any literature by way of +news media or otherwise, published by any organization reputed to be +communistic or pink or that sort of thing? I don't want to get it too +broad. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Only I. F. Stone's newsletter and that certainly---- + +Mr. JENNER. Whose? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I. F. Stone's newsletter and I wouldn't say---- + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mr. THORNLEY. He is a Washington reporter who is a rather extreme +leftist, but certainly within the bounds of what is accepted in this +country as non-subversive. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe yourself in that respect. Where are you, a +middle-of-the-roader? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say I am an extreme rightist. I call myself a +libertarian, which is that I believe in the complete sovereignty of +the individual, or at least as much individual liberty as is practical +under any given system. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have to be an extreme rightist to believe in the +sovereignty of the individual. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, it is getting that way in this country today. At +least most people who listen to me talk call me a rightist. I wouldn't +say so either. I think the political spectrum was fine for France at +the time of the revolution. I don't think it applies to the United +States of America today in any respect whatsoever. I don't think you +can call a man an extreme leftist, rightist, or middle-of-the-roader +and have him classified that simply. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any brothers and sisters? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I have two brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. What do they do? + +Mr. THORNLEY. They go to, one of them goes to junior college, I +believe, and the other one goes to high school. They are in Whittier, +Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. Are your folks alive? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What does your father do? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He is a photoengraver. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's get back to Oswald. Describe this individual to me. +First describe him physically. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Physically, I would say he was slightly below average +height. Had, as I recall, gray or blue eyes. Always had, or almost +always had a petulant expression on his face. Pursed-up lip expression, +either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances. Was of +average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine, +tending to bald a little on each side. + +Mr. JENNER. Above the temple. What would you say he weighed? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he weighed about 140 pounds, maybe 130. + +Mr. JENNER. How tall was he? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he was about five-five maybe. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. How tall are you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I am five-ten. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he shorter than you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What habits did he have with respect to his person--was he +neat, clean? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Extremely sloppy. + +Mr. JENNER. Extremely sloppy? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He was. This I think might not have been true of him in +civilian life. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know one way or the other? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; but I do have reason to believe that it wasn't true +of him in civilian life because it fitted into a general personality +pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant +trend in his personality. + +Mr. JENNER. You think it was deliberate? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think it tended to be deliberate; yes. It was a gesture +of rebellion on his part. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss that matter with him, as dress. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The attitude of rebellion? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; because this attitude of rebellion was a fairly +common thing in the service. + +Mr. JENNER. On the part of others as well as Oswald? + +Mr. THORNLEY. As well as Oswald. Oswald did carry it to--was the most +extreme example I can think of stateside. However, overseas, in the +outfit he had been in before, as I discovered later, this was quite +common. + +Mr. JENNER. How much later? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Three months--well, immediately, as soon as I left, as +soon as I got overseas. I walked in to the barracks on the Fourth +of July over there and saw beer bottles spread all over, and some +character sitting in the back of the barracks with a broken beer bottle +cutting his arm, for what reason I don't remember. They found beer cans +in a trash can in MACS 9 and there was a drastic investigation; so +there is an indication of a difference between stateside and overseas. +Oswald was typical, very typical of the outfit he had just left +overseas. + +Mr. JENNER. So that it is your impression, you would say. I gather, +that as of that particular time when you first knew him that he was +still carrying some of his experience personal attentionwise from what +he had experienced overseas? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was still following the habits he had acquired +overseas? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this +sloppiness? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person +who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or +staff sergeant mad at him. He would make wise remarks. He had a general +bitter attitude toward the Corps. He used to pull his hat down over his +eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking +around very Beetle Bailey style. + +Mr. JENNER. What is Beetle Bailey? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Beetle Bailey is a comic strip character who walks around +with his hat over his eyes very much as Oswald did. + +Mr. JENNER. You want to keep in mind, Mr. Thornley, I am an old man and +there are things I don't pick up or get hep to. + +Mr. THORNLEY. This is nothing recent. This is a comic strip that has +been around quite a few years now. + +Mr. JENNER. You go on and tell us about his personality. + +Mr. THORNLEY. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Including any physical characteristics or habits. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think I have covered all physical characteristics. His +shoes were always unshined. As I mentioned, he walked around with the +bill of his cap down over his eyes and you got the impression that he +was doing this so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was doing that so that he would not be assigned +additional work or---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; he was just doing that--this was just an attempt, I +think, on his part, to blot out the military so he wouldn't have to +look at it; he wouldn't have to think about it. In fact, I think he +made a comment to that effect at one time; that when he had his bill of +his cap over his eyes so he would see as little as possible, because he +didn't like what he had to look at. + +He had, as I remember, he had a sense of humor, and I can only think of +a couple of examples of it. I have only been able to think of a couple +of examples of it over the past few months, but I have a strong general +impression in my mind that there were more examples that I just don't +remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you draw on your recollection as best you can and +you just keep telling us now in your own words and I will try to not +interrupt you too much. + +Mr. THORNLEY. All right. One example was, that I remember--of course, +it was well known in the outfit that, or popularly believed that Oswald +had Communist sympathies---- + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't share that view? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not as much as some did, and while this was popularly +believed, I mention this as kind of a framework for the significance of +Oswald's comment: Master Sergeant Spar, our section chief, jumped up +on the fender one day and said, "All right, everybody gather around," +and Oswald said in a very thick Russian accent, "Ah ha, collective farm +lecture," in a very delighted tone. + +This brought him laughs at the time, and he had gotten me to read +"1984," as I mentioned earlier, and this was one of his favorites---- + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me what "1984" was. + +Mr. THORNLEY. This was a book about--it is a projection into the +future, supposed to take place in 1984 in England under a complete +police state. It is, I would say, an anti-utopian novel, by George +Orwell, a criticism of English socialism and what it might lead +to, based upon Orwell's experiences with communism and nazism, his +observations about a society in which a mythical leader called Big +Brother dominates everybody's life. Where there are television cameras +on every individual at all times watching his every act, where sex is +practically outlawed, where the world is perpetually at war, three big +police states constantly at war with one another, and where thought +police keep every, all of the citizens in line. Oswald would often +compare the Marine Corps with the system of government outlined in +"1984." + +I remember one day we were loading equipment---- + +Mr. JENNER. By way of protest against the Marine Corps? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; humorously, satirically. One day we were unloading, +moving a radarscope off the truck and it slipped, and he said, "Be +careful with Big Brother's equipment." + +It was things like this. He did a lot of that. + +I remember one day he--I was walking along with my hands in my pocket, +which is something you don't do in the service if you are--certainly +if you are in an infantry outfit you don't dare. Things were a little +lax in our outfit, so we could get away with it once in a while, so I +happened to be walking along with my hands in my pockets and suddenly I +heard a voice: "Hey, Smith, Winston," and rattle off a serial number, +"get your hands out of your pockets," which was a direct quote from the +book "1984." + +These are the only examples of Oswald's, that particular aspect of +Oswald's character that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. I am stimulated to ask you this question by something you +just said. Did he have a good memory? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think he must have had a good memory; yes. If he wanted +to remember something, he could. I think he also had good ability to +blot out unpleasant thoughts in his mind. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his powers of assimilation of what he read, and +his powers of critique? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I certainly think he understood much more than many +people in the press have seemed to feel. I don't think he was a man who +was grasping onto his particular beliefs because he didn't understand +them. I don't think he was just trying to know something over his head, +by any means. I think he understood what he was talking about. + +Sometimes I think there were gaps in his knowledge. I think there were +many things he didn't know, and this came from a haphazard education. + +Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with the fact that he had had a +somewhat haphazard education? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It was obvious. I didn't become acquainted with it +specifically until recently in the news. But---- + +Mr. JENNER. You had that impression at the time? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I had that impression; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that impression arise? Because of the lack of +analysis or real critique on his part of that which he was reading? +Inability to assimilate the thrust of a work? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wouldn't say that. I would say he could analyze +what he read very well, but it was a very subjective impression, and +the idea I got was that there were a lot of things he didn't know, and +just a lot of facts that he wasn't familiar with. I guess sometimes, +probably in discussions, I would run into something. I would mention +something and he would say, "What is that?" + +I know we did have a couple of very hot arguments and I am sure we were +throwing facts at one another, and he was certainly able to belt them +out when he wanted to, facts that suited his purpose in arguing. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his--the extent of his formal +education and the extent of any private education of his; that is, +reading--self-education. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Self-education. I was certainly surprised that--when I +read in the papers that he had not graduated, I think they said he had +not graduated from high school. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I thought he had graduated from high school. I assumed +that. I would say that his self-education certainly must have +been--perhaps, in fact, he took USAFI courses, U.S. Armed Forces +Institute courses, or something along that line, because he was one who +gave the impression of having some education, certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an impression of his intellect? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I think he was---- + +Mr. JENNER. I am speaking in the abstract. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think he was extremely intelligent, with what +information he had at hand he could always do very well and in an +argument he was quick. He was quick to answer, and it was not a matter +of just grabbing at something. It was a matter of coming back with a +fairly precise answer to your question or to your objection to his +argument. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then it was your impression--I will change my +question because I don't want to ask a leading question here. + +What was your impression as to whether his learning, in the sense we +are talking about now, was superficial or was he able to master that +which he read, and engage in personal self-critique of that which he +read, discover its weaknesses, and apprehend its major thrust? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I would say as I have said before, he certainly +understood what he read. How much he had read, I don't know, but I +do know that when he got on a subject in which he was interested, he +showed a grasp of it. This is true with the book "1984," for example. +It is true with Marxism. + +Mr. JENNER. Now that interests me also. You mentioned that before; +that is, his espousal of or interest in Marxism as such. What was his +ability, if he had any, and I am talking now idealistically only, to +compare Marxism, communism, democracy? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I understand. I think---- + +Mr. JENNER. And did he understand the distinctions? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I think he understood the distinctions as well as +most reasonably educated people do. I think he certainly had a Marxist +bias in how--where he drew the lines. + +For example, he could look upon the Soviet system today as a democracy +by, of course, giving a completely different definition to the word +"democracy" than I, for example. He would give---- + +Mr. JENNER. Can you remember some discussions or incidents that explain +that? Would he use objectivism? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I remember one in particular that always reminded +me of his general outlook. + +One day we got into an argument and I thought I was really going to pin +him to the wall, I thought I was going to win this argument. + +Mr. JENNER. On what subject? + +Mr. THORNLEY. On Marxism. On the theory of history. + +Mr. JENNER. Reconstruct the argument for me. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, all right. Let me add this. + +When I was in my freshman year in college, in my English class, I +believe it was, perhaps it was a history class we had been required +to read, it was a history workshop, we had been required to read +the Communist manifesto which presents an outline of the theory of +the Marx-Engels outlook on past and future history. The dialectical +outlook. Oswald was also familiar with this outlook. As to what it +constituted we both agreed. Oswald had argued previously that communism +was a rational approach to life, a scientific approach to life, Marxism. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in argumentation with you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. THORNLEY. With me. I challenged him to show me any shred of +evidence to support the idea that history took place in the manner +described by Engels and Marx (this was not just an arbitrary system +looted as many suspect, from Hegel) and he, after some attempt to give +me a satisfactory answer, which he was unable to do, became aware of +that and he admitted that there was no justification, logically, for +the Communist theory of history or the Marxist theory of history, but +that Marxism was still, in his opinion, the best system for other +reasons that there was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Best as against what? + +Mr. THORNLEY. As against, well primarily as against religions. He +did--that first comment of his always sticks in my mind, about +communism being the best religion. He did think of communism as, not as +a religion in the strict sense but as an overwhelming cultural outlook +that, once applied to a country, would make it much better off than, +say the Roman Catholic Church cultural outlook or the Hindu cultural +outlook or the Islamic cultural outlook, and he felt that, as I say, to +get back to this argument, he felt that there were enough other things +about communism that justified it that one could accept the theory of +history on faith. + +Mr. JENNER. What other things? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, for one thing: the idea that he felt--as did +Marx--that under capitalism workers are exploited, that in some way +they are robbed of their full reward for their work by means of +entrepreneurs' profits, and he felt that Marxism took his money but +instead of taking it away from the worker spent it on the worker. + +He felt that under a Soviet--under the present Soviet system, for +example, that the money was spent for the benefit of the people rather +than going to the individual who happened to be running the enterprise, +and he thought this was a juster situation. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you raise with him the price the individual had to pay +for the material accommodation accorded the worker under the Communist +system; for the substance or money, of which you speak, being returned +to the worker? The price paid in terms of individual liberty as against +the capitalistic or democratic system? + +Mr. THORNLEY. You couldn't say this to him. Because he would say: "How +do you know? How do you know what is going on there." + +Mr. JENNER. First; did you raise it with him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I raised it with him. + +Mr. JENNER. You being a libertarian as you say? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at that time I was--my ideas have changed since +that time. At that time I was much to the left in my political thinking +once again; well, I would say about in the same position that Mr. Stone +who I spoke of earlier is now. I was on the "left-hand" side of the +acceptable political spectrum in this country, and so, therefore, these +issues, the issues I would now raise with him had I again the chance to +speak to him, would be much different than the issues I raised with him +at that time. I did not raise that issue particularly, I did not push +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there much, if any, discussion at the time on the issue +of individual liberty? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; very little, because I wasn't too concerned about it +at the time and neither was he. We were both concerned about what was +the best for the greatest number of people. I don't think that concept +was clear to either one of us. + +Mr. JENNER. But, even having in mind the status of your political +thinking at that moment, your political thinking did not square with +his? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I was opposed to the great trust that he put in, much +greater than I suspected at that time, of course, trust that he put in +the Soviet Government in the world today I felt they were misguided +idealists. He felt they weren't misguided. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us as best you can recall his comments and views with +respect to capitalism of the variety then existing, or as he understood +existed in this Nation. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I wouldn't say that we--I can't recall us having +gone into any detail about anything so relevant to anything as +capitalism in this Nation at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. These discussions were broader. They were more abstract? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Usually, yes. Whenever we got specific we usually +discussed the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. You did not discuss the United States of America as +such? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And the Soviet Union as such, and compared the two +countries? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, as I say, you couldn't do this with Oswald because +whenever you tried to make any statement about the Soviet Union he +would challenge it on the grounds that we were probably propagandized +in this country and we had no knowledge of what was going on over there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he purport to know what was going on over there? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he show any interest in what was going on over there? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He definitely showed interest. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us some examples and tell us. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he took an agnostical approach to this. It +seemed that he didn't know whether to believe what he read in his +Russian newspaper, not that he used those exact words, or what he heard +in this country. He took the attitude that "Well, they may be right and +we may be right but I suspect they are right." This, of course, once +again, I always got the impression in any of these discussions that +part of his slight bias toward the Communist way of life was an act of +rebellion against the present circumstances. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that bias, if any, was a mild bias? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I thought so at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression at anytime that he was +interested from an objective standpoint; that he might like to +experience by way of personal investigation what was going on in Russia? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It never dawned on me. It was the farthest thing from +my mind. Although I certainly will say this: When he did go to Russia +it seemed to me as a much more likely alternative for Oswald than say +joining the Communist Party in the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Mr. THORNLEY. It seemed to fit his personality. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read that? I lost the thought of it. + +(The reporter read the answer.) + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, Oswald was not militant. At the time it didn't seem +to me he was at all militant. That he was at all a fighter, the kind +of person who would glory in thinking of himself as marching along in +a great crusade of some kind. He would be the kind of person who would +take a quiet, as quiet as possible, for him personally, approach to +something. For example, going to the Soviet Union would be a way he +could experience what he thought were the benefits of communism without +committing himself to storming the Bastille, so to speak. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement that, in seeking to interpret or +enlarge upon what you say, that you did not have the impression of +him as being a person who thought in terms of seeking to implant in +this country, for example, by force or violence or other leadership, +communism or Marxism so as materially to affect or change the +government here? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I don't think he felt he had to do that. I think he +felt that that would inevitably happen some day and he was just getting +into the swing of things by doing things his way. I don't think he felt +that he could do much to promote the Communist cause or hinder it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever lead you to believe or did you have the +impression that he had any thought or desire or inclination to implant +communism here or elsewhere. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; not any more than merely to with the argument. He +certainly would have liked to have converted me or any other person +who was willing to discuss it with him. He would have liked to have +persuaded them that his ideas were correct. If he had done so, I have +no idea what he would have done then. I don't think he did either. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his relationships, camaraderie with others on +base? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Almost nil. + +Mr. JENNER. Almost nil. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, he got along---- + +Mr. JENNER. Enlarge on that please. + +Mr. THORNLEY. He got along with very few people. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was that, in your opinion? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He was extremely unpredictable. He and I stopped speaking +before I finally left the outfit. This will give you an example of---- + +Mr. JENNER. How did that arise? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It was a Saturday morning. We had been called out to +march in a parade for a man or some men--I believe they were staff +NCO's--who were retiring from the Marine Corps. This was a common +occurrence. Every now and then we had to give up our Saturday morning +liberty to go march in one of these parades and everybody, of course, +having just gotten up, and having to stand out, to look forward to +a morning of standing out in the hot sun and marching around, was +irritable. So, we were involved at the moment in a "hurry-up and wait +routine" which is common in large organizations like the military. We +were waiting at the moment, in the parking lot by the parade ground, +sitting. Oswald and I happened to be sitting next to each other on a +log that was used to bank cars, in the parking lot. I had just finished +"1984" a couple of days earlier, and I had not yet discussed it with +Oswald, and I was--he said something and I said something; I don't +recall what it was--I was definitely thinking of "1984" at the time and +I was using terms from "1984." Oswald didn't seem to be particularly +amused by what I was saying, and he was--he seemed to be kind of lost +in his own thoughts, and so I stopped making any comments at all to him +for awhile. Then he turned to me and said something about the stupidity +of the parade, of the whole circumstance right at the moment, how angry +it made him, and I said, I believe my words were, "Well, comes the +revolution you will change all that." + +At which time he looked at me like a betrayed Caesar and screamed, +screamed definitely, "Not you, too, Thornley." And I remember his voice +cracked as he said this. He was definitely disturbed at what I had said +and I didn't really think I had said that much. He put his hands in his +pockets and pulled his hat down over his eyes and walked away and went +over and sat down someplace else alone, and I thought, well, you know, +forget about it, and I never said anything to him again and he never +said anything to me again. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean you never spoke to each other from that time on? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; and shortly thereafter I left the outfit for +overseas. I don't recall that we were ever in a situation where we +would have spoken, but I know we never spoke after that. And this +happened with many people, this reaction of Oswald's, and therefore +he had few friends. He never seemed to have any one friend for a long +length of time, one acquaintance. He seemed to guard against developing +real close friendships. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--excuse me, you recall being interviewed by an +agent of the FBI? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in New Orleans on Monday the 25th of---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. This was on an afternoon. Does he have the time down? + +Mr. JENNER. 25th of November. + +Mr. THORNLEY. That was Secret Service, wasn't it? Let's see, the 22d, +23d, 24th. + +Mr. JENNER. This was Special Agent Merwin Alderson and Special Agent +Richard Farrell. It was the Monday following the assassination. + +Mr. THORNLEY. What I believe happened is--I believe they arrived in +Arnaud's Restaurant where I was working at the time about midnight +Sunday night so it would actually be Monday, yes, sir, that they talked +to me. I gathered at the time these gentlemen were from the Secret +Service, but those are the gentlemen. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say to them in connection with this sudden +termination of the relationship between yourself and Oswald "that you +had made this comment to Oswald, that he was a Communist and that +things would be different when the revolution came"? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't tell them he was a Communist; no. But +Oswald, certainly that was his reason for his anger. There was an +implied accusation of communism in my saying, "Comes the revolution you +will change all that." + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. THORNLEY. You see, he wasn't understanding the comments I was +making in relation to "1984" at all, our traditional meeting ground +here. He was interpreting them in light of his alleged communism, and +that is why he became angry. But no; I didn't say to him, "You are a +Communist"--ever. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your explanation. + +Mr. THORNLEY. This was not my opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. You are saying that he interpreted your comment to be that +you accused him of being a Communist, and then he made the remark, "Not +you, too." + +Mr. THORNLEY. I am sure he interpreted that that way but I certainly +didn't think he was a Communist and I certainly didn't tell him so. + +Mr. JENNER. To what did you attribute this inability of his to maintain +reasonably cordial or at least military-service family relations with +his fellow marines? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at the time I just thought--well, the man is a +nut--at the very moment it happened, I dismissed it without thinking +about it. + +Mr. JENNER. See if you can articulate a little more, when you say "a +nut," a lot of people will interpret the expression "a nut" differently. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I understand that. I was just trying to give you my +first impression first: that he was some kind of a nut, and I stopped +thinking about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean a nut in the sense of an extremist, not an +organized thinker? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I didn't think about that enough to classify it. I just +thought, "something is wrong with him, maybe something is bugging him +today, maybe he is crazy, I don't know what," but I just wasn't at that +moment--it wasn't that important to me, I didn't feel much better than +he did that morning, I am sure, so I just shrugged it off. + +Later, I did reflect on it, and that, combined with his general +habits in relation to his superiors, and to the other men in the +outfit, caused me to decide that he had a definite tendency toward +irrationality at times, an emotional instability. Once again right +away, I didn't know exactly what was the cause of this. A couple of +years later I had good reason to think about it some more, at which +time I noticed---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now when please? Before the assassination? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, while working on my book, "The Idle Warriors." + +Mr. JENNER. About when was this? + +Mr. THORNLEY. From the time he went to the Soviet Union until February +of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. You learned that he had gone to the Soviet Union? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I was stationed at his former outfit, Marine Air +Control Squadron 1, at the time he went to the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you then stationed? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is where I was at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. What country? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At Atsugi, Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. And you learned about it through what source? + +Mr. THORNLEY. The Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper in the +Far East. It was on page 3, I believe, a little article about Lee +Harvey Oswald having appeared in the American Embassy in Moscow, +having plopped down his passport and requested Soviet citizenship. My +first reaction was, "Good Lord, what is going on here?" And afterward, +I, of course--it began to occur to me, his interest in communism, +and I started kicking myself, thinking, well, you know, just for so +misjudging a person. I just---- + +Mr. JENNER. Misjudging? What respect, please? + +Mr. THORNLEY. As far as his sincerity went. I did not ever think he was +so interested in communism to go to all the trouble to go to the Soviet +Union and certainly to jeopardize his citizenship, and so forth. This +was a great surprise to me. And right away I began to try to figure out +the mechanism of his thinking. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Keep going and tell me what your rationalization and +thinking was at that time. + +Mr. THORNLEY. And what caused him to do this. This gets us back to the +emotional instability and why did it occur. I do believe, to begin +with, Oswald, how long ago he had acquired the idea I don't know, but I +think in his mind it was almost a certainty that the world would end up +under a totalitarian government or under totalitarian governments. + +I think he accepted Orwell's premise in this that their was no fighting +it. That sooner or later you were going to have to love Big Brother and +I think this was the central, I think this was the central thing that +disturbed him and caused many of his other reactions. + +I think he wanted to be on the winning side for one thing, and, +therefore, the great interest in communism. I think he wanted--I think +he felt he was under a totalitarian system while in the Marine Corps, +and, therefore, the extreme reactions when someone would call him a +Communist. I think he had a persecution complex, and I think he strove +to maintain it. I could not go so far as to say why. Perhaps it was +necessary to his self-esteem in some way. This was and is the general +conclusion I now have as to his general motivations, his overall +motivations, insofar as he has tended to be emotionally unstable. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was emotionally unstable? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. That is an opinion you gathered from your association with +him in the Marines. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Primarily once again from that last experience, that +short exchange and just the complete unexpectedness of it. And then, of +course, after that was when I learned some of the other things, such as +the pouring the beer over the staff sergeant's head. These things, I +don't know when I learned them, but I do definitely know I learned them +afterwards because I---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean you learned of that incident after you left the +base at El Toro? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I believe I learned it over in Japan, as a matter of +fact, I believe soon after I got there somebody mentioned it in some +connection or another, and that was because I remember, yes, I am sure +it happened over there because I remember, then I said, "Oh, he was in +this unit? He was in here in MACS 1?" and somebody said, "Yes." And +that was another connection in my mind as far as Oswald was concerned. + +And then when the defection occurred, I therefore felt that I--I had +been thinking about writing a book on the Marine Corps. I had not +decided exactly what it was going to concern, what it was going to be +about as far as plot or theme went, the background would be the Marine +Corps in Japan, because that was the first big, at that time to me, +dramatic experience of my life suitable for a book, worth telling about. + +So, when the defection occurred on that same day, I thought, "Well, +this is it. I am in a perfect position to tell how this took place, why +this happened." I was not so interested in explaining Lee Harvey Oswald +to myself or anybody else, as I was in explaining that particular +phenomenon of disillusionment with the United States after serving in +the Marine Corps overseas in a peacetime capacity; thus the title: The +Idle Warriors. + +Since Oswald inspired the book, I did base a good deal of it as a +matter of convenience on his personality and on his ideas. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you had the impression as you sat there in Japan +that here was a man whom you felt wanted to be on the winning side. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to why? Did you, for +example, have the impression that he felt that his life had been such +that he had been deprived of the opportunity to be on a good side? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That he conceived to be the leading side? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. I had a definite impression of why. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think it is a mistake that many people make, and I +think it is a mistake he shared, and that is: he looked upon, not only +Marxists make this mistake, but he looked upon history as God. He +looked upon the eyes of future people as some kind of tribunal, and he +wanted to be on the winning side so that 10,000 years from now people +would look in the history books and say, "Well, this man was ahead of +his time. This man was"--he wanted to be looked back upon with honor +by future generations. It was, I think, a substitute, in his case, for +traditional religion. + +The eyes of the future became what to another man would be the eyes of +God, or perhaps to yet another man the eyes of his own conscience. + +Mr. JENNER. So it wasn't in the prosaic sense of merely wanting to be +on the "winning side." + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When things developed---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I don't think he expected things to develop within +his lifetime. I am sure that he didn't. He just wanted to be on the +winning side for all eternity. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that that was in terms of +selflessness? That he thought also in terms that Lee Harvey Oswald +would be associated with this forward thinking? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. He was concerned with his image in history and I +do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the +particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. It got him +in the newspapers. It did broadcast his name out. I think he probably +expected the Russians to accept him on a much higher--in a much higher +capacity than they did. + +I think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a +position in their government, possibly as a technician, and I think he +then felt that he could go out into the world, into the Communist world +and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. He +was definitely---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have to be the Communist world or could it be any +world that he saw projected into the future? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. And as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a +religion with him. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Much more than he himself realized even though he called +it his religion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression there was a personal +selflessness, that is a--I will put it in terms of disregard or rather +this way--that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't +concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to +maintain life in his body? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I think he wanted physical happiness. I think this +is why he didn't do something like just join the Communist Party. +I believe he felt that was dangerous. I think he wanted to live +comfortably. But I think if it came to a choice between the two, or +to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, I +think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree +of physical comfort that he expected or sought, I think he would then +throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the +image in history. + +I don't think that--I think he wanted both if he could have them. If he +didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that +he was somebody. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn, +embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the +former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that +there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part? + +Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him, I don't think he had the vaguest thought +in that direction. I do definitely, of course, based solely upon what +I have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after +returning to the United States from the Soviet Union. I think he was +getting panicky. + +Mr. JENNER. In our discussion you can see it is important to me +to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it +by subsequent events. Of course complete lack of influence is not +possible, but I am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to +November 22. + +Mr. THORNLEY. All right. I would say that prior to November 22, I felt +that he had gradually become disillusioned with the United States for +many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact, +his disillusionment with the United States in the Far East probably +contributed to some extent to his conviction that the Communists would +eventually prevail, the Communist culture would eventually prevail in +the world, and I then had the feeling that he certainly--I thought he +would probably stay in Russia, for example, forever. + +I didn't know what he was doing there. I realized from what I read at +that time that he was not--he did not have Russian citizenship. He was +staying there as an immigrant. I expected him probably to adjust to +Russian life and that would be the last that the Western World would +ever hear of Oswald. + +Everything Oswald has ever done has surprised me. + +Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. + +Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him and since I knew him, when I knew him I +was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming +of the revolution that Saturday morning. I was surprised when I read +in the papers overseas that he had gone to the Soviet Union. I was +surprised when he came back. And I was entirely caught unaware when it +turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent +that for some time afterwards, I thought he was innocent. + +Mr. JENNER. Why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before +you do that where were you and how did you find out about it. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was in New Orleans. My parents sent me an article from +the Los Angeles Times about it. The reason I was surprised at his +coming back was as I said before, I just expected that would be the +last I would hear of him. I fully expected him to adjust to Soviet +life. I thought what he--at that time I thought what he probably +lacked in the Marine Corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of +the Marine Corps. Whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall +purpose of the Soviet Government, so I don't think he would mind the +restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the Marine Corps. + +I did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with +the Soviet Union. I am not, of course, sure that he did become +disillusioned with it. It just seemed unlike him to come back to this +country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or +as a worker. + +Mr. JENNER. When did he say that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He said that at a press conference in Moscow according to +the papers. + +Mr. JENNER. This was something you read in the Stars and Stripes? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I don't know whether I read this in the Stars and +Stripes or whether I read this--I certainly read it when he came back +from Russia, I remember. It was in the article from the Times my +folks sent me. Said when he had left for the Soviet Union he had said +such-and-such, quote. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you did not expect him to become disillusioned +with Soviet Russia. Was it your impression at any time, take the +several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of +political philosophy or government? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he did definitely always before and after have a +Marxist bias. From anything that has come to me, that has never--I have +never reason--never had reason to doubt that. + +Mr. JENNER. That, you think, was a conviction? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept +which he used for argumentation? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Let me put it this way. I think you could sit down and +argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument +and have piles of facts and I don't think you could have changed his +mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. I +certainly don't. I don't think with any kind of formal argument you +could have shaken that conviction. And that is why I say irrevocable. +It was just--never getting back to looking at things from any other way +once he had become a Marxist, whenever that was. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he able to articulate distinctions between Marxism, +communism, capitalism, democracy? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew him and argued with him he didn't +bother to articulate distinctions between Marxism and communism. At a +latter time I understand he did. + +Mr. JENNER. He attempted to. + +Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew his communism was the modern, living +vicar of Marxism, period. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you in New Orleans when he was arrested for +distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I arrived in New Orleans in the early part of September. +If I was in New Orleans---- + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This occurred in August of 1963. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Then I wasn't there; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about it? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't. I didn't hear about it until after the +assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any of those tapes? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I heard part of one of them after the assassination, once +again. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that part include his effort to distinguish between +Marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either +Mr. Stuckey or one of the other participants? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is exactly what he was talking about at the time. I +happened to be standing in the television station in New Orleans and he +was saying, and I just got a snatch of it, I was passing through the +room or something; and he was saying, "Well, there are many Marxist +countries in the world today." + +Mr. JENNER. This was by way of his answering a question as to what was +the distinction between Marxism and communism? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; he was saying there are many non-Communist Marxist +countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction +between Marxism and communism. + +Mr. JENNER. But all he did was to cite the countries. He didn't attempt +to make the distinction. + +Mr. THORNLEY. It was only a snatch of it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a fair representation of his utterances during +those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. You mentioned +also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a +persecution complex? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was not necessarily based alone on the incident +you relate that occurred on that Saturday morning? Were there other +incidents? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls +having ears, about--I think he felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty +close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that +reason in fact, I think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was +being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else. + +I don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the +fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. I think it was +kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. It +wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a +paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he +was being unjustifiably put upon? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, always; yes. He was, in fact, you almost got the +feeling that he was--this was happening because of his defense. I mean +he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated +against him. + +Mr. JENNER. Of his injustices as to him personally, different from the +treatment of others about him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. To him personally; yes. Well, and it was the fact that he +had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some +degree of trouble that went on to support this. For example, we would +stand at muster in the morning, and Sergeant Spar would call the roll +and he would say "Oswald" and Oswald would step out of the ranks and he +would send him off to mow the lawn or something. + +Oswald did get special treatment. As I say, he had brought it on +himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means +of getting or attempting to get sympathy. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what was the sergeant's name? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Sergeant Spar. + +Mr. JENNER. Spar. In using his name, I don't wish to, I am not +suggesting anything personal as to Sergeant Spar, but I am going to +use him as a faceless Marine sergeant. + +Mr. THORNLEY. And a very good one. + +Mr. JENNER. You marines, at least some of you, I assume, as had GI's +and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to +avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; you didn't have to. So long as you kept in line +and obeyed orders, you didn't have to--you weren't assigned any +disagreeable task in the kind of outfit I was in because there weren't +that many. When there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was +assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always +enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find +them. In fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go +around. The only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would +hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have +to all, much to our dismay, wade around at 2 o'clock in the morning and +tear down tents and so on and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a thing that was common to all of you. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking +about. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right; and that was never necessary to have to butter +up that I can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get +exempted from anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, do you think Oswald was aware that all he had to be +was more tractable to the customs and practices of the Marine Corps +in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable +tasks more often than others? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, that is hard to say. I don't know whether he was +aware of that or not. I am not sure whether he permitted himself to be +aware of it. Maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. He +had compulsions to do these things. Maybe he thought it was worth it +and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all. +Maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated +unjustly, if you follow me. + +Mr. JENNER. I do. + +Mr. THORNLEY. It could have been any of these things. This--I think it +would take a good psychiatrist to find out which. + +Mr. JENNER. You also used the expression that he strove to maintain the +status or milieu in which he had brought himself. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I think this was possibly so. I think perhaps the +feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. This is, +I understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything +else I know about him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression that you have just expressed +at the time that you were associated with him in the Marines? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I was associated with him, I didn't have that +impression because I was too busy wondering just what it was. I used +to--I would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an +officer, for example, and I would say, "Well, doesn't the idiot know +that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would +resent his punishment. + +Mr. JENNER. What would he do afterward? + +Mr. THORNLEY. As if it had been thrust upon him for no reason +whatsoever, out of the blue. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that +respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He was definitely impulsive. + +Mr. JENNER. That he had no control? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't know whether he had no control or whether +he would just do things without thinking. I think maybe he just let, +relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling he was impulsive? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. He acted on the spur of the moment? + +Mr. THORNLEY. He was spontaneous, very much so. This was--I had this +impression the whole time I knew him. + +Mr. JENNER. You did have the impression and I think you have mentioned +it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise, +self-esteem. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't mention that that I recall. I did say that +I think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his +self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history +but I don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; I +don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just +plain confident. I don't think--I don't have any reason to believe that +he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the +average, at most. + +Mr. JENNER. I wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and I didn't +gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense +either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in +the sense of accomplishment or egoism. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Now, I don't know. Self-esteem in one's own eyes, it +seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. Some people +justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means +of their standing in some country club. I think Oswald justified it by +means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem. + +By means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of +others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or +some group or some persons about him and in his life---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think he wanted this very much but I don't think he +knew how to go about getting it. He wanted it, and yet he certainly +didn't--I think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had +offered them anything in exchange for it. He wanted it but he wanted it +to come to him for no reason. He didn't want to have to earn it. I got +that impression. That is a very mild impression. + +Mr. JENNER. We are dealing in a very delicate field here and I am +pressing you very severely. + +Mr. THORNLEY. These are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to +distinguish between. + +Mr. JENNER. We are probing for motivation. Did you ever discuss with +him the matter of education? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. His own; or education in the abstract; or the need for +education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether +his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be +advanced by further education? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part +or inferiority because of his limited education? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. First of all, in the Marine Corps there is a +prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and +Oswald was exempt from it. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "exempt from it"? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness +toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read. + +Mr. JENNER. He may have felt superior because he did read, did you have +that feeling? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a definite feeling? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused +me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read. +But except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, I don't know who +it was, I haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning +looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, Colonel +Poindexter, an air ace in Korea---- + +Mr. JENNER. A what? + +Mr. THORNLEY. An ace pilot in Korea, and made the comment, "There goes +a mental midgit" which drew glee from Oswald, as I remember. But aside +from that one particular incident--well, in any case, when he was +dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. You +got that impression. But dealing with the other marines who maybe did +have an education or did not have an education, I didn't get any, ever +get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react +to this. + +Mr. JENNER. As between yourself and him, your association, what was +your feeling? Did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with +him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; definitely. I didn't get any idea that he was--I +thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly +isn't spectacular by any means. I thought he might have had a year of +college. I knew he had--I figured he had graduated from high school. It +never occurred to me to think any more about it. I did, as I mentioned +before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but +many people do, in fact all of us do, I am sure, in some fields. + +But in Oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or +something that made me notice them, perhaps. Perhaps he was better +read, for example, on Marxist economics than any other school of +economics, things like this. But that was the extent of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there in your kicking around with him in your +discussions--was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past, +his life? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. This I am almost certain of. I had no +idea, for example, that he was from Texas or where he was from. At that +time I don't recall him having a Texas accent, either. I had no idea +that his father had died when he was young. I had no idea about his +family, anything along this line and I don't think I ever discussed my +past with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the +name of the Albert Schweitzer College? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his +seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered +out of the Marines? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. For one thing we were not close enough +friends to have any personal interests in each other. I looked upon +him as somebody to argue with, another atheist--therefore, without the +problem of religion between us--and to argue philosophy and politics +about, and I think he looked upon me in about the same light. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your dexterity with Marine weapons? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Mine? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was a sharpshooter. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I believe--well, at that time I didn't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't know. I want your viewpoint as of that time. +While you were based at El Toro, did the unit engage with any +regularity in rifle practice? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. At that time, the whole time I was +there, we did not engage in rifle practice. + +Mr. JENNER. As a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, in the Marine Corps you are required once a year +to go to the rifle range and qualify. I was not there an entire year. +Point No. 2, this was the Marine air wing which has much less of an +emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to +be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the +outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty. + +Mr. JENNER. Which was? + +Mr. THORNLEY. 6749 Aviation Electronic Operator. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this true when you reached Japan? + +Mr. THORNLEY. More so. When I reached Japan, however, we did go to the +rifle range one time shortly after I got there, and qualify. I recall +at that time that in Japan we weren't even having rifle inspections. +There you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it, +and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded +away, and put it back again. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't even have rifle inspection? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Once in a while we would have one, but not with any +frequency whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you +kept it clean in the locker. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. What are the grades of marksmanship? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. + +Mr. JENNER. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Therefore, I gather +from that that marksman was the basic grade. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A grade that every marine was expected to, and had to, +attain that grade? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no +particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little +extracurricular when you were in boot camp. Otherwise, you didn't +wear a marksman's medal is all. You didn't have any qualification in +the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of +promotion or something like that. In the air wing it had much slighter +significance than that. Maybe if you were being considered for a +meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but +day to day it had no significance. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the standards applied in the air wing with respect +to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the +standards applied, let us say, in the Marine infantry? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Exactly the same; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Exactly the same. Would you please state for me your +concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b) +sharpshooter, (c) expert? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, a marksman is an average shooter. A man, I think, +could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum +knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. When a +man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is +nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside +influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like +this. + +Sharpshooter is just a little above average. It ranges over about--a +pretty wide field. But it is a man who--a sharpshooter would be a man, +the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a +rifle, and some practice. + +Whereas an expert is the kind of man I would hate to have on the other +side in a war. He is accurate with his rifle up to and including 500 +yards in a number of different positions. Hits the bull's-eye or close +to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the category in which we would place that to which +we refer generally as the sniper? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, I +imagine. But an expert rifleman would perform much better. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe be a superior sniper. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. And to attain the position of expert marksman must there be +considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural +ability? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as +not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some +kind. An expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous +system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control. + +I would imagine training can make up for this. I know a couple of times +I just missed expert by a few points. It seemed that I couldn't make +expert. It seemed to me there was just something I didn't have in order +to make expert. It was very frustrating. + +Mr. JENNER. You tried? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. Of +course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his degree of proficiency +in the use of the rifle? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impressions that you gathered in that +respect while you were with him at El Toro? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. Had somebody asked me to guess about +Oswald, I would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just +because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. You would never have expected him to have been a +sharpshooter, for example? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it +wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. This is something very +difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for +me. I have seen some drill instructors who could do it. But to tell +whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, I am +not qualified. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were stationed with him at El Toro, did you ever +go off base with him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion of dates? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. His attitude toward women? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Sex? + +Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard +with respect to him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Sex habits, propensities? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; you stand a risk in the Marine Corps, if you are +at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being +homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any +comments made of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some other readings of his in addition to +"1984"? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I do recall having mentioned Dostoievsky to him and I +know he had read something and I think it was "Crime and Punishment" +but I am not sure. It was something I had not read by Dostoievsky when +I had read about, I guess at that time, about three or four books. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a great book. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Someday I am going to get around to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you not read it yet? It is a really great book. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; and I don't recall him mentioning any other books +offhand. I don't--I can't think of a thing besides "1984" and some book +by Dostoievsky. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were based at El Toro did he engage, did you +notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular, +to such matters as foreign affairs? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer, +Lieutenant Donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the +newspapers, I do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald attempting to bait Lieutenant Donovan? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember what it was. I know, I believe +Lieutenant Donovan was also a lieutenant which I had had a couple of +run-ins with if I remember correctly. + +If not, it was Lieutenant Delprado. It was one of the two of them. Mine +were completely accidental and I went to great length to keep away from +one of them because it seemed like any time I was around him I happened +to do something to irritate him. But Oswald, I don't recall exactly +what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to +say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be +irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. It +happened many times. In Oswald's case though, it was exceptionally---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean it happened many times with respect to other +noncoms in the Marines with respect to these officers? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right; but in Oswald's case it seemed a little more +deliberate. Some guys would get mad and they would say something, +or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get +themselves involved and then they would decide, "Well, what the hell," +and push it all away. Oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason. +He just told an officer to get lost. + +Mr. JENNER. He baited an officer for the pleasure of it? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I might mention that this was one means by which he +won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers +especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made +him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of +officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of +the men--who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell +others about it. Perhaps this is why he did it. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his +quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I don't think I was ever in his barracks. I do recall +having been told that he had Russian books and that is all I--that is +the only connection I can make now in my mind with his quarters. I +don't think I ever saw them. + +Mr. JENNER. You already have given us something of his view of the +U.S. Marine Corps. Would you give us a summary of that? Give us your +impression of his views with respect to the U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, definitely the Marine Corps was not what he had +expected it to be when he joined. Also he felt that the officers and +the staff NCO's at the Marine Corps were incompetent to give him orders. + +Mr. JENNER. Incompetent in what sense, they were below him +intellectually? + +Mr. THORNLEY. They were below him intellectually--and for various other +reasons in each case, too. Maybe this officer was ignorant, as was +brought out about foreign affairs, in Oswald's mind, knew less than +Oswald did about it. I don't hold with the stand that Oswald would +study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. I +think it just happened to be that Oswald would see that the officer +was basing his foreign affairs maybe on Time magazine when Oswald had +done a little more reading and I think he resented this Time magazine +approach to foreign affairs. + +Mr. JENNER. How did these discussions arise, Mr. Thornley, the +discussion of foreign affairs by officers? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the officers, every so many weeks--this is +mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers--every so many weeks a +lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current +affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains +the world situation in a half hour. I remember having one second +lieutenant telling us about Dalai Lama or it was a first lieutenant +and I forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd. +I think at that time the Dalai Lama had just disappeared or something, +and one would get the impression, I think, that he thought the Dalai +Lama was a leader in Pakistan or something. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I think that was the impression the lieutenant had +had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. The last minute, +he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his +information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care +whether it was accurate or not anyway. Stood up in front of the troops +and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men +didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that +interested, and that was it--with a couple of people laughing up their +sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time I knew +Oswald. + +However, in such a situation Oswald would have been careful I am sure +to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to get to that. During the course of these +lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with +the instructor? + +Mr. THORNLEY. They were permitted to ask questions, to raise their +hands to ask questions. And Oswald would have probably asked a question +which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance. + +Mr. JENNER. Put the lieutenant at a disadvantage? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present at any times when you were at El Toro +when the lectures occurred when, at that time Oswald raised his hand +and engaged in dissertation? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I might have been but I don't recall it if I was. I +recall being present at several lectures at El Toro, and it just might +have happened. It was the kind of thing Oswald would do and it wouldn't +even have phased me. I probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember +if it had happened. It would have been just part of the daily routine +there so I would have---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever engage in that sort of thing? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I never had guts enough to stand up and tell an +officer he didn't know what he was talking about. Behind his back I +might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was +talking about, but I was never quite that brash--in that particular +respect, anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. What were your impressions on Oswald being interested in +music? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not being interested in music myself particularly---- + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his +interests? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, therefore, I had none; correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever play chess with him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite +association; I think he did play chess. I can't place the person. +This--there were some other people in the outfit who played chess. +There is one name I have been trying to remember for a long time, and I +think it starts with "Win" something. "Winter" something. I'm probably +way off base there. But a tall blond corporal, I believe, played chess +and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. At that time, I +guess at that, I knew how to play chess. I have never been particularly +interested, though, in the game so I don't--I am pretty sure I didn't +play chess with him. + +In fact, come to think of it I had just been cured of playing chess 3 +months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and I stopped +playing for about a year. It wasn't me. + +Mr. JENNER. While at El Toro did Oswald become engaged in any physical +altercations with anybody? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; definitely not to my knowledge. Never got into any +fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that I know of. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, if you had one then, as to his +disposition in that regard? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I had the impression that he avoided violence. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were at El Toro do you recall whether Oswald ever +went off the base on liberty? + +Mr. THORNLEY. As far as I know he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions on the base as to what, if +anything, Oswald did? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, Oswald had done off the base on liberty? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of Cuba and Castro and that +problem? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; tell us all about that. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at that time I and Oswald were both, and a couple +of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that Castro was a great +hero. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he was liberating Cuba from Batista and, of course, +we had heard all about Batista and what an evil man he was, which I am +sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by +Castro, some of Castro's promises--such as he would take no part in the +government after the revolution, such things--so we had the definite +impression--I remember there was one Puerto Rican boy, myself, Oswald, +a couple of others who had quite an admiration for Castro, and thought +the pro-Communist statements he was or might be making at the time, +were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island +because it was located so close to the United States. + +In other words, I felt at the time he was playing both ends against the +middle in order to go his own way, something like Charles de Gaulle +is doing right now by recognizing Red China. I felt it was purely +statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. I didn't feel that Castro +was a dedicated Communist. Whether Oswald did or not I don't know. He +admired Castro because of the social reforms Castro was introducing. So +did I at that time. + +Delgado, the Puerto Rican boy, as I recall it, was becoming worried +at that time because he was beginning to think maybe Castro was +communistic. I didn't think so. Oswald, as far as I know, didn't have +anything to say on that matter. And that is about all I can tell you. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you say that you admired Castro and you knew Oswald +admired Castro. Tell us on what you base that comment. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, once again as I remember, there was one of these +afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something, +worried about Castro, it might have been Delgado, it might have been +somebody else, I don't think it was Delgado that day because I think +he was defending Castro, somebody said something against Castro, and +Oswald said that he didn't think Castro was so bad. + +He thought Castro was good for Cuba, and they said why, and I took up +the argument, which was the argument I just gave you, the naive idea +I had at the time that he was playing for independence, and Oswald +remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and +that was it. + +Mr. JENNER. Shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments +you were making? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to my argument, to my justification of Castro. + +Mr. JENNER. But you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that +connection? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald have a nickname? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I know of except Oz sometimes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit"? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, yes; I didn't realize that anybody else referred to +him as such but I always thought of him as such. He reminded me very +much of a cartoon character at that time. It was kind of pathetic. +There was something about this little smile of his, and his expression +on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general +appearance established a definite association in my mind with some +Warner Bros. cartoon character, I believe Warner Bros. And I, very +recently, in a discussion with someone, describing Oswald mentioned +that he reminded you of--I said: "I think there is a character called +Oswald Rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." And they shook their head. + +Now, I know where I got that particular example so I probably heard him +referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit," though I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to +him attendant upon his interest in the study of the Russian language or +his interest in communism or in Russia or Soviet---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. Only he was sometimes called the Communist and he would, +sometimes I know--as far as his study of the Russian language went he +made no attempt to hide this. + +In fact, he made--would make attempts to show it off by speaking a +little Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. He was proud of that, was he? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke +Russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the +morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also +would make jokes in Russian, not in Russian, but in English, in a thick +Russian accent many times; this was very typical of him. + +Mr. JENNER. He resorted to that area and use of satire? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; until I had made the comment that implied he was a +Communist, I had no idea---- + +Mr. JENNER. That he was sensitive? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to +be. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any visitors? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility +of his going to Russia? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in +Stars and Stripes? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Somebody would say to him, "Why don't you go and live in +Russia," in the middle of an argument. + +Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a +statement on his part about his going to Russia? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Never anything; no. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it it was your opinion he was not a Communist at the +time he was assigned to El Toro? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That was my opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you have never seen or talked with Oswald +subsequent to the time he left or you left for Japan, from El Toro? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, my statement is correct. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he +was in New Orleans when you were there? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of his comings and goings other than the +newspaper report that your folks sent you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I was aware that he had come back from the Soviet Union +and gone to Dallas, and I know I at that time did think about going +to see him in Dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to +Russia, to check it with my own theory. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to get to that in due course. + +Mr. THORNLEY. But aside from knowing that he came back and went to live +in Dallas with a Russian wife and a child I had no idea of his comings +or goings. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time you had some notion of going to Dallas to see +him or Fort Worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the +book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or +fulminating about? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it was practically--well, it was finished by that +time but I was thinking about, I was definitely planning to rewrite it. +I didn't know how soon, and I thought before I did rewrite it I would +go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. There were a lot of +gaps in the book, and in the book I was not able to explain how he got +from the United States to Russia and things like that. A lot of things +I wanted to check out and I thought if I could get him to cooperate +with me, perhaps not even in telling him I was writing the book, I +could get the information I wanted. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was the state of mind you had after you had heard +that he returned to the United States? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Which was June of 1962, when he returned? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right, and I had finished the book in February. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mr. THORNLEY. 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962. You were in Mexico and Mexico City in 1963? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Cover that for us. What was the motivation, the length of +the trip? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I will have to begin at the beginning on that. On April +17, my parents sent me a gift of $100 on the condition that I spend it +for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. Which I did, and I left +around--well, I arrived in California on May 5. I remember going along +the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border. + +Mr. JENNER. What border? + +Mr. THORNLEY. From Yuma to San Diego. + +Mr. JENNER. Mexican border? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May +5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these +reports that I gave to the FBI the information might be different. +Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity, +and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way +of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I +never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have +to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I +have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into +the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to +go down to Mexico City and stay a short while. + +So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent +within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and +then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or +Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus. + +At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2, +because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride +and the date September 2. + +And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound +or Continental. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you arrive in New Orleans? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in +New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4. + +Mr. JENNER. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4 +and 5---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. Say May 3 to September 4. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not in New Orleans? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed +there for approximately a month or so? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Longer than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and +you then returned directly to New Orleans? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During none of that period of time did you have any contact +with or hear anything about Oswald? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not. + +Mr. JENNER. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the +name of Sylvia Bortin? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Sylvia Bortin? + +Mr. JENNER. B-o-r-t-i-n. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; this young lady, by the way---- + +Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside? + +Mr. THORNLEY. In Whittier, Calif., or at least last summer she did, +I don't know where she resides now. This young lady, by the way, +was mentioned in--her mention in this whole matter came out of a +misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the FBI agents. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you explain that, please? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I don't recall what the question was--oh, yes, he had +asked me something about, I believe it was the First Unitarian Church +in Los Angeles. I had mentioned earlier at the time I was talking +to Oswald, and knew Oswald, I had been going to the First Unitarian +Church in Los Angeles. This is a group of quite far to the left people +politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my +political relationship with Oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask +me questions about the First Unitarian Church and I answered, and then +he realized or understood or asked what Oswald's connection with the +First Unitarian Church was and I explained to him that there was none. +Miss Bortin never knew Oswald and vice versa, and these people were two +different parts of my life. There was this civilian compartment and the +military compartment, and I never intermingled them. + +Mr. JENNER. This young lady married and her husband is now in Havana, +Cuba? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is what she told me last summer; yes. He was going +to school in Cuba. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it this had nothing to do with yourself and Oswald's +views with respect to Castro that you told us about. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; this happened, I think, later, in fact I am sure it +happened later. At that time Miss Bortin, she was then unmarried, did +not know Robert Uname, I believe. I met him, I believe, September a +year later. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you finished that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that Oswald had no close personal friends at +least that you observed? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. And the name of his closest friends I do +not know. I do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to +get along with pretty well. + +Mr. JENNER. In the unit? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; but I don't recall this man's name. If it was +mentioned to me, I probably could, but---- + +Mr. JENNER. You were groping for it when you were interviewed. You +suggested it might be Charles---- + +Mr. THORNLEY. I mentioned a Charles. + +Mr. JENNER. Weis. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Weir, but that was not the man. This was a friend of a +friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information +perhaps that I couldn't. + +At this time perhaps, also, I was thinking of a possibility it might +have been Weir and since then I have remembered definitely who Weir was. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was he? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember whether his first name was Charles but I +remember who he was. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a noncom? + +Mr. THORNLEY. There was a man named Cooley. There was somebody else, +and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk Russian +in the ranks with Oswald in the morning I don't know, but that is who +it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this particular man you now mentioned the man who +occasionally talked Russian with Oswald in the ranks, is he the man who +you had in mind? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As having been a friend of Oswald's? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; in that in the same respect that I was a friend of +Oswald's. Once, again, the exact terminology I would use would be close +acquaintance. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would say from your description of the relationship +with Oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I think it was probably the same with this person from +what I recall, to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of +Oswald? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; Oswald was not the type of person who had, as it +has been emphasized on all parts, I think, and it confirms my own +impression, was not the type of person who made close friends or who +stuck with close friends. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw no instance in which Oswald evidenced affection for +anybody, I mean in the nice sense of the word? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; none whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Or anybody evidenced any affection in the nice sense of the +word for him? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it your trip to Mexico City was purely one of +general interest as you have described and had nothing to do with any +interest on your part in going to Cuba or attempting to go to Cuba? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Believe me, no. I have no desire to go to Cuba unless I +am going to take a rifle and be on an invasion force or something. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of anybody in the Marine Corps, whose last +name was Hidell? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At the time this name was mentioned to me that was--that +person, whoever it was that Oswald used to speak to in the ranks in the +morning came to my mind. But I can't say that that was the name, and +I am--of course, now, I am very leery that that--very uncertain as to +ever having heard the name Hidell, and I doubt it very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Shortly after the unfortunate occurrence of November 22, +1963, you were interviewed by Secret Service agents, were you not? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Now, this is what I had mentioned earlier. This was +the Monday interview, of November 25, actually it was midnight Sunday +night as I recall. It seemed to me a couple of days later before I +spoke to the FBI. I believe there was a Mr. Rice--was one of the men. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the evening of the 23d of November? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Was it the 23d? + +Mr. JENNER. It probably ran over. + +Mr. THORNLEY. It must have been Saturday evening then. I had thought it +was Sunday evening. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event you were then interviewed by some newspaper +reporters? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; that was quite some time afterward. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it was before November 27, 1963, was it not? + +Mr. THORNLEY. It was after the 25th, I think. It was after I had +finished talking to the FBI, as I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I will mark as Thornley's Exhibit No. 1 what purports to be +a Xerox reprint of a newspaper article. + +(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 1 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with that? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What newspaper was this from? + +Mr. THORNLEY. The States-Item of New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And that article was a result of the newspaperman's +interview with you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see it upon its publication? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with it? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it substantially accurately reflect at least portions +of, in reasonable context, the interview you had with the newspaper +reporter? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to a surprising degree for a newspaper, on the basis +of my past experience in dealings with them. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in that article that you regard as +reasonably seriously erroneous? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not when I read it the last time. + +Mr. JENNER. Insofar as it attributes anything to you? + +Mr. THORNLEY. May I reread it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I would say this is accurate in everything it attributes +to me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. + +Now, it appears from that article and from the testimony you have +given this morning that you were stimulated, or, as you have indicated +you prepared at least a first draft of a book or pamphlet or article +respecting your experiences in the Marine Corps, and one of the central +characters of which, mythical or otherwise, was a friend, Oswald. + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And when I spoke to you by telephone the other day I +inquired of you as to whether that was still in existence and you +responded that it was. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring it with you. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you done so? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. May I see it, please? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; here is the draft completed in February of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am interested in seeing that in its condition as of +that time. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Right. That is it. There is only one addition and there +is some blank paper on top. There is one addition, and that is the +short preface written yesterday to give some idea of how much was fact +and how much was fiction. + +Mr. JENNER. All right--the page numbered 2? + +Mr. THORNLEY. There was a table of contents once and it took two pages. + +Mr. JENNER. Which I might identify in addition thereto as having the +word "Preface," at its top and your name and the date May 17, 1964, +Arlington, Va., at the bottom. That is what you prepared yesterday, is +that correct? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All of the balance, therefore, commencing with the pages +numbered 3 and running through, I assume, consecutively? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To page 250 is the article as it was when you completed it +in February 1962? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Precisely. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like the opportunity of reading through this and, +of course, 200-odd pages, we don't have the time to do it as of the +moment, and the Commission would like to have it among its records. +May I have the material and I will take it in the back room. We have +a Xerox, and have it duplicated? This, I appreciate, is your personal +property and it is of value. It is not something that the Commission +will place in the hands of others who may make commercial use of it. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I am quite sure that it will be perfectly safe. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. It is in the same condition now, that is, pages +3 through 250, as those pages were when you completed this manuscript +in February 1962? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there might have been a couple of spelling errors +corrected since then or typographical errors but that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. And that article of which we now speak and which for +purposes of identification I will mark as Thornley Exhibit No. 2, and I +offer Thornley Exhibit No. 2 in evidence. + +(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 2 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Subsequently thereto, I understand from my conversation +with you, you prepared a revision of that paper. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I have been working on a revision. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring that along +with you as well. Have you done so? + +Mr. THORNLEY. I have been between this draft---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you said "this draft" you are referring to Thornley +Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2, and the draft I am now giving you--several +illegible drafts were made. This represents not the latest draft, but +the latest typewritten draft. It represents a fragment of it. + +The first third, almost the first third, minus a couple of pages of a +novelette based upon this Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. JENNER. For purposes of identification the witness has now handed +me a set of letter-sized pages numbered 1 through 37, consecutively. + +Are they consecutive? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it, as against the length of the other paper, +that these pages 1 through 37, represent an incomplete novel. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is it covers only a portion of the areas and times +covered by Thornley Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. THORNLEY. This ones takes a completely different approach in that +this did not take a chronological approach to the development of the +character based on Oswald, but takes a flashback approach. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Centering around an investigation of that character after +his defection to the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. For further identification of the document which I will +mark Thornley Exhibit No. 3, page 1 is entitled "Chapter 1, Gung Ho." + +Page 4 is entitled "Chapter 2, Fallen Comrade." + +Page 7, in the center, is entitled "Chapter 3, Hush Hush." + +Page 11 is entitled "Chapter 4, Blue Marines." + +Page 14, in the upper portion, is entitled "Chapter 5, Peace Gospel." + +Page 21 is entitled, at the head, "Chapter 7, The Killer." + +Page 24, near the center, is entitled "Chapter 8, Captain Kidd." + +Page 27, at the bottom, "Chapter 9, Mutiny." + +Page 31, "Chapter 10, John Henry." + +Page 34, "Chapter 11, The Storms." + +And page 37, "Chapter 12, The Chicken." + +(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 3 for +identification.) + +Mr. THORNLEY. Now, this Exhibit No. 3 is a much greater fictionalized +approach toward, well, as far as reference goes to Oswald, the +character upon--the character which is based upon Oswald in Exhibit No. +2, Johnny Shellburn, Exhibit No. 3 is much farther from life. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Johnny Shellburn assimilated to Oswald? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; much more so in Exhibit No. 2, though, than in this +one. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibit No. 3. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; since I wrote Exhibit No. 2, I have learned to write +fiction rather than a thinly disguised biography. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, Exhibit No. 2 was primarily a biography? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Not in the strict sense that it portrayed a man's life in +detail, but in the sense that any reference, most of the references, as +is explained in this preface toward the end of the book---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say this preface, you mean the preface to Exhibit +No. 2? + +Mr. THORNLEY. That is, Johnny Shellburn toward the end of the book, +well, from before the middle of the book on, extends more and more to +reflect Oswald's character, and I definitely was thinking about Lee +Harvey Oswald when I wrote this book, Exhibit No. 2, whereas---- + +Mr. JENNER. In your discussion refer to them by exhibit number. + +Mr. THORNLEY. I will keep my hands below the table. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have to do that. Just use the exhibit numbers. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Whereas in Exhibit No. 3, I have universalized it +more, tried to get away from giving any impression that I am making +a chronology of the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald, which is +something I thought would be relevant as far as the Commission would be +concerned in reading the material. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mark Exhibit No. 3 accordingly, Mr. Reporter? + +I offer in evidence Thornley Exhibit No. 3. I take it, Mr. Thornley, +that you commenced the preparation of Exhibit No. 3 subsequently to the +assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Exhibit No. 3 reflects a course of events and +their imprint upon you that occurred on and after November 22, 1963. + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, no; Exhibit No. 3 reflects the same course of events +reflected in Exhibit No. 2. As far as the telling of the story goes and +the characters therein it takes place back in 1959. It makes a definite +attempt, however, to get away from Oswald as a specific character and +to discuss the problem of disillusionment in the peacetime military or +disillusionment with values on a much more universalized range than +Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. May I make a copy of Exhibit No. 3? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Under the same circumstances and upon the same conditions +as you granted your consent to make a copy of Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; Exhibit No. 3 also does include some things +on--that I have acquired through the news on Oswald since the +assassination because Oswald tends to reflect the type of person I was +talking about. So to put it, to make it as clear as possible, right now +I realize I am saying Exhibit No. 3 is more like Oswald and less like +Oswald, to put it as clearly as possible. + +Mr. JENNER. You are going in two directions at once. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2 is more like the Oswald I knew in MACS 9, +the Oswald of my experience, whereas Exhibit No. 3 is a universalized +Oswaldian-type character based upon not only my own experience but +the news that has come to me about Oswald, about other people like +Oswald, other defectors, other assassins, and so on and so forth, since +November 22. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Thornley, tell me something about Kerry +Thornley. You obviously, to me, are not a doorman. + +Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes; I am a doorman. + +Mr. JENNER. You are at the moment performing that service. But that +isn't your objective in life. + +Mr. THORNLEY. My objective is to write books, novels primarily, as +many as I can in the years that are given to me, and possibly upon +publication of one of them to go back to school to further my ability +to write. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you taking any training in that respect or have you in +recent years? + +Mr. THORNLEY. Well, not formally. I have devoted myself to a lot of +exercises in writing, and I have availed myself of the help of any +experts I could grab onto, including successful novelists and former +newspaper reporters and so on and so forth, to help me solve problems +in my writing and improve it, but there is really, to my mind, my +outlook on writing a novel; for example, there is not much you can +learn from a formal course in writing. I think you can learn much more +from, say, the study of linguistics or semantics; if you are going to +learn anything from a university, for example, on writing, and this I +intend to do in due time. + +Mr. JENNER. We occasionally have been off the record, not often, and +I have talked with you on the telephone. Is there anything that was +said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in +any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the +Commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of President +Kennedy that I have failed to bring onto the record? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir; I think we have very thoroughly covered it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to +add that you think might be pertinent to our inquiry and of help to the +Commission? + +Mr. THORNLEY. No; there is certainly nothing else I can think of. + +Mr. JENNER. Your deposition will be written up rather promptly. We +probably will have it tomorrow, and would you be good enough to call +me, say--when do you go on duty? + +Mr. THORNLEY. At 5 o'clock. + +Mr. JENNER. Call me in the forenoon--I mean right after lunch--and if +it is convenient will you come in and read over your deposition and +sign it? + +Mr. THORNLEY. All right. May I just, to make absolutely sure, may I +take down your phone number once more? + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr. on June +27, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF FLORIDA, + _County of Hillsborough, ss_: + +I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being +duly sworn say: + +1. I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and +am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the +University of Florida this summer. + +2. My wife and I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which +departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about +September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for +12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there +were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who +shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip +from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire +trip was approximately 16 days. + +3. Before this trip, I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +4. All of the passengers ate at one table; however, Lee Harvey Oswald +missed quite a few meals because he was seasick much of the time. +Furthermore, there was no fixed schedule for meals. When we did have +meals with Oswald, he sat cater-cornered from me. However, Oswald was +rather withdrawn, and thus I did not converse with him a great deal. +Oswald did state during our discussion of our destinations, that he was +going to attend a university in Switzerland. Oswald did not give the +name of the university and did not indicate that he had a clear cut +schedule as to his course of study. + +5. I recall having discussed with Oswald the Depression of the 1930's. +Oswald appeared quite bitter as to the hard time his mother had +suffered during this period. I tried to point out to Oswald that I +had lived through and survived the Depression and that millions of +people in the United States also had suffered during those years. This, +however, made no impression on Oswald. + +6. Oswald spent much of the time by himself. He did not participate in +any of the social activities, nor in any conversation. He did mention +his service in the Marine Corps, and he stated that he did not like +the military service. Generally Oswald was not friendly, and he did +not make much of an impression on me since I was not particularly +interested in him. + +7. The ship had a receiver in the ward room which was off and on during +the voyage. I did listen to it occasionally, and I did understand +German. I do not know if Oswald listened to the receiver or not, and I +have no idea as to his knowledge of any foreign language. + +8. Oswald did not indicate that he was going to go to Russia. + +9. After the trip I never saw nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald again. + +Signed this 27th day of June 1964. + + (S) George B. Church, Jr., + GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., on +June 27, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF FLORIDA, + _County of Hillsborough, ss_: + +I, Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., being duly sworn say: + +1. I live at 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida. I travelled to Europe +on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for +LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. + +2. I recall that besides my husband, there were two other passengers: +Lee Harvey Oswald and Bill Lord. My husband and I sat at the same table +with Oswald for meals, but outside of meals, we did not have much +contact with him. While I had endeavored to get acquainted with Lee +Harvey Oswald, he did not enter into friendly conversation. He stayed +to himself, and I considered him peculiar. + +3. Oswald indicated that the purpose of the trip was to attend a +university in Switzerland, but he evaded giving the name of the +university and, he did not indicate any clear cut or positive courses +of study other than a statement to the effect that he might study +philosophy or psychology. His attitude seemed to be one of resentment. +His roommate, Bill Lord, was going to attend a university in France and +was studying French during the trip. Lord was quite exuberant about his +course of study and purpose of life, in contrast to the attitude of Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +4. I do not recall Oswald doing any reading. However, I gave him a book +which he never returned. + +5. Upon completion of the voyage aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes, I +obtained the address of Bill Lord for the purpose of perhaps later +writing him or sending him Christmas cards. I also requested Oswald's +address and he questioned the purpose of my request. He later +reluctantly furnished his home address as, C/O Mrs. M. Oswald, 3124 +West Fifth Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I wrote this in my address book. + +6. At no time did Lee Harvey Oswald indicate that he was actually +planning or attempting to defect or go to Russia. There was no +indication that Oswald had any Communist leanings. + +I did notice that Oswald spoke with the Chief Engineer who was then +aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes. The Chief Engineer indicated to me that +he felt that Oswald was a smart boy. + +7. This was the last I ever saw or heard from Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Signed this 27th day of June 1964. + + (S) Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., + Mrs. GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF BILLY JOE LORD + +The following affidavit was executed by Billy Joe Lord on June 26, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Travis, ss_: + +I, Billy Joe Lord, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am an Airman Third Class in the United States Air Force, and I am +in the 340th Bomb Wing, Combat Defense Squadron at Bergstrom Air Force +Base, Texas. I am 22 years old and my parents live at Midland, Texas. + +2. After graduating from Midland High School in 1959, with the +financial assistance of my parents, I made plans to continue my +education in France. During August, 1959, I made an application for a +passport, and on or about September 15, 1959, I departed Midland, Texas +via train for New Orleans, Louisiana, arriving there about September +17, 1959. I spent the next three days touring the city of New Orleans +and making several trips to the ticket office of the Lykes Lines. The +cost of passage aboard the ship S.S. Marion Lykes amounted to slightly +more than $200. I registered and stayed in the LaSalle Hotel on Canal +Street, which was near the city library. I visited the library several +times during this stay in the city. During this period I did not know +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +3. On September 20, 1959, I boarded the freighter S.S. Marion Lykes at +New Orleans. Upon boarding the ship, I was shown to my room, and when I +got there, Lee Harvey Oswald was already there and moving in. We were +to share this room. I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey +Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald and I shared this cabin for the duration of +the trip to France which was fourteen days. + +4. In our first conversation, Oswald said that he was recently +discharged from the Marines and that he had worked in some technical +field while in the Marines. He indicated that he was somewhat bitter +about the fact that his mother had to work in a drugstore in Fort +Worth, Texas, and was having a difficult time. He also said that +he would probably return to the United States to work. He gave no +indication of his ultimate destination, although he said he was going +to travel around in Europe and possibly attend school in Switzerland if +he had sufficient funds. Also in this first conversation, we discussed +religion. I do not know why we discussed religion except that possibly +he noticed that I had a bible. Oswald maintained that he could not +see how I could believe in God in view of the fact that science had +disproved the existence of God, and that there was only matter. + +5. After the first day, I hardly conversed with Oswald at all. Oswald +was not outgoing and neither was I. We just were not very friendly. + +6. Besides Oswald and myself, there were two other passengers aboard +the ship. They were a retired U.S. Army Colonel and his wife, Colonel +and Mrs. George B. Church, Jr. All four of the passengers generally +ate their meals together in the ships officer's mess. Oswald ate most +of his meals with us. I do not recall Colonel Church and his wife +associating very much with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +7. I shared a closet with Oswald, but I did not notice anything out +of the ordinary among Oswald's possessions. He did show me either his +military identification card or his passport. + +8. Oswald did not indicate that he might defect to Russia. To the +best of my knowledge, Oswald did not receive any correspondence or +communications while aboard the ship, nor did he associate with any +of the ship's crew. Oswald never mentioned any contacts or friends in +Europe. + +9. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be a normal, healthy individual, +mentally alert, but extremely cynical in his general attitude. + +On October 5, 1959, our ship arrived in France, and I disembarked from +the ship. I never saw or heard from him again. It is my recollection +that he departed from the ship subsequent to my departure. I had +written my mother about all the passengers. When Oswald defected, she +sent me a newspaper clipping about it. + +10. Oswald spent a great deal of his time during the trip on the deck. +I do not recall him doing any reading. I do recall, however, that there +was a radio speaker which received programs from Europe and that Oswald +and Colonel Church seemed to understand a little bit of the foreign +language that came over on the speaker. I thought it was German, but I +am not sure. + +11. I attended the Institute of French Studies at the City of Tours, +Province of Touraine, France, from October, 1959 to February, 1962 +intermittently while auditing courses at the University of Poitires, +Tours, France, and at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France. I +returned to the United States aboard the French ship, Liberty, in June, +1960. I went to France again in February of 1961 for further education, +and returned to the United States in February of 1962. + +Signed this 26th day of June 1964. + + (S) Billy Joe Lord, + BILLY JOE LORD. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ALEXANDER KLEINLERER + +The following affidavit was executed by Alexander Kleinlerer on June +16, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Tarrant, ss_: + +Alexander Kleinlerer of 3542 Kent Street, Fort Worth, Texas, being duly +sworn, says: + +1. My name is Alexander Kleinlerer and I do now reside and for several +years last pass have resided at the above address. + +2. I am and have for several years been a foreign representative of +Loma Industries, a plastics production company, located at 3000 West +Pafford Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I am 41 years of age and single. +I was born in Poland of Polish parents both of whom died in German +concentration camps during World War II. During the War I lost all +members of my family, not only my immediate family, but my relatives +as well, other than a sister in Paris, France who is still alive and +a cousin who once resided in Russia but who now lives in Poland. The +area in Poland in which I and my family and relatives resided was +overrun by the German Army. I was confined in Buchenwald concentration +camp until 1945 when I was liberated by General Patton's forces. I +immediately moved to Czechoslovakia and then to France. In May of 1956, +I journeyed from France to the United States and found employment with +Loma Industries. I returned to France as a foreign representative for +that company in November of 1957 and remained there until June of 1961 +when I returned to the United States. In due course thereafter I became +a naturalized citizen of the United States in May 1963. + +3. I speak a number of European languages well. As a result I have +become acquainted with numerous foreign language speaking individuals +in the Fort Worth-Dallas area. These include, insofar as the Oswald +incident is concerned, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, Mr. and Mrs. George +deMohrenschildt, Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia +Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir +Voshinin. + +4. During 1962, I was enamoured of and was courting Mrs. Elena Hall who +was then divorced from her husband John. I first become acquainted with +Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald on a Sunday morning in the fore part of +September 1962. I was working in Mrs. Hall's garage at 4760 Trail Lake +Drive, Fort Worth, Texas, building wooden baffles for stereo speakers. +George Bouhe, a valued friend of mine, drove up in his automobile +accompanied by Oswald, Marina and their infant child. I was introduced +to Oswald and to Marina. Oswald somewhat stiffly acknowledged the +introduction but was laconic and uncommunicative thereafter. They had +come to inquire of Mrs. Hall about dental problems of Marina's. I have +a fairly distinct recollection that Mrs. Anna Meller also accompanied +the group on this occasion. Mrs. Hall is a dental technician employed +by the Patterson Dental Laboratory in Fort Worth. The group was seeking +Mrs. Hall's help as to where a low cost dentist or clinic could be +found where they might take Marina for dental care, having in mind that +the Oswalds were in straitened financial circumstances. I do not recall +what the result of this conversation was in that connection as I did +not accompany the group when they went into Mrs. Hall's home. + +5. Thereafter during September, while the Oswalds still resided on +Mercedes Street near the Montgomery Ward store, I visited there with +Mrs. Hall on two occasions. The reason for the earliest of these +additional occasions was that Mrs. Hall and George Bouhe had asked me +to inquire among the girls in my office for dresses and other wearing +apparel for Marina. I collected some sweaters, skirts and a dress or +two. Mrs. Hall also inquired among her friends and collected some +things. We put these together in one package and Mrs. Hall and I drove +to the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street to deliver the package. We +were shocked to find that the Oswald child had no baby crib or bed but +was kept on the floor in the bedroom either in a suitcase or between +two suitcases. + +6. Within a few days we returned to the Oswalds with a baby bed that +Mrs. Hall had obtained from some friend. We purchased a mattress for +the baby bed and delivered these items to the Oswalds at the Mercedes +Street apartment. + +7. There was another occasion when I was at the Mercedes Street +apartment. George Bouhe had called me and asked me to meet him there. +This had nothing to do with the Oswalds. George Bouhe and I are good +friends and he was calling to say that he was going to be in Fort Worth +at the Oswalds and asked me to drop by so we could have a friendly +visit. On this occasion I saw the Oswalds briefly. I recall that Anna +Meller came with George Bouhe and there was an older lady whose name +I do not now recall. I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated +at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. +George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the +table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a +domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere +chattel, proceeded to vigourously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant +bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked. + +8. Mrs. Hall was injured in an automobile accident in Fort Worth the +evening of October 18, 1962. Marina and the child were residing in Mrs. +Hall's home at this time. They had come to Mrs. Hall's home earlier in +the month because Oswald had, we understood, lost his job and it had +been agreed among Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the others that Oswald +would go to Dallas to seek employment and Marina would stay with Mrs. +Hall. Mrs. Hall was released from the hospital in the latter part of +October, I think around October 26th. She spent a few days at home and +on October 30, 1962, a date which I have checked from a receipt that +I have, she left Fort Worth for Garden City, New York, to visit with +friends. While away on this trip she was reunited with and remarried +her former husband John Hall. My recollection is that they returned to +Fort Worth about the 11th or 12th of November 1962, and in any event +by the 15th. While Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and while she was +visiting in New York, I frequently called at the Hall home during my +lunch period (usually about 1:00 p.m.), at the request of Mrs. Hall, to +inquire of Marina's needs and her welfare and to see that matters about +the house were all right. I reported regularly to Mrs. Hall what my +impressions were. + +9. During the periods Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and later in New +York, Oswald came to the Hall home on several occasions on Friday night +and stayed until late Sunday afternoon or early Sunday evening when he +returned by bus to Dallas. Mrs. Hall's home is approximately 12 to 14 +miles from the business district of Fort Worth, and it is approximately +30 to 32 miles from the Fort Worth business district to the business +district of Dallas. A trip from Mrs. Hall's home to Dallas involves in +travel some 40 or more miles. + +10. I distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances +under which Marina left Mrs. Hall's and was taken by Oswald and George +deMohrenschildt's daughter Alexandra and her husband Gary Taylor to +Dallas to live. It was on a Sunday while Mrs. Hall was in New York. +My recollection is that it was in the fore part of November on the +Sunday preceding the return of Mr. and Mrs. Hall from New York. On the +preceding Friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. It was Marina. +She said that she was going to leave the Halls and go to Dallas to +live with Oswald. At this point Oswald interrupted and spoke on the +telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to +move into Dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by +the next day. I came by the Halls the next day, which was Saturday, in +the morning. Marina and Oswald were there. I entered the house. Marina +was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun +to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that +the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to +her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer +commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the +Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with +which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was +standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room +of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in +a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped +her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her +face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my +presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long +been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything. + +11. The arrangements for moving the following day were discussed. I was +to be there to supervise the removal of the Oswald paraphernalia and to +lock up the Hall residence. + +12. When I arrived at the Hall's residence on that Sunday morning, +Marina and George deMohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra Taylor, were +there. Oswald and Gary Taylor, the husband of Alexandra, George +deMohrenschildt's daughter, were off somewhere in Fort Worth seeking +to rent a "U-Haul-It" automobile trailer into which the Oswald +paraphernalia was to be placed. Most of the Oswald goods that had +been stored in Mrs. Hall's garage and which had been in her home were +already packed in preparation for placing in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. +Oswald and Gary Taylor returned in due course, in Taylor's automobile +with the trailer hooked on behind. Taylor among other occupations, was +a taxi driver in Dallas at this time. + +13. I had met both Alexandra and Gary Taylor at the Hall's on a prior +occasion. This was a weekday evening after Mrs. Hall returned from +the hospital. They had been eating dinner at Mrs. Hall's home. I came +to visit Mrs. Hall and was surprised to see them all at the table. Of +course I left immediately since I hadn't been invited to the dinner. +The Taylors brought Oswald with them in Taylor's car so that Oswald +could visit Marina. + +14. I supervised the placing of the Oswald goods and wearing apparel +in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. There were several instances in which I +had to intervene when Oswald picked up some of Mrs. Hall's things to +place in the trailer. I could not say whether this was deliberate or +inadvertent, except that there were several instances. My recollection +is that Oswald and Taylor had obtained the trailer at a service station +in Fort Worth. It seems to me it was a place somewhere on Barry Street. +In due course the loading was completed. They got into Taylor's +automobile and drove off. I understood from the telephone conversation +on Friday night and my visit with the Oswalds at the Halls on Saturday, +and the conversations that took place on Sunday, that the Oswalds were +moving into an apartment in Dallas which Oswald had very recently +rented. This was the last time I ever saw either of the Oswalds or had +any contact with them. I had arrived at Mrs. Hall's around 1:00 p.m. +and they departed around 3:30 p.m. + +15. I recall that while Marina was staying at the Halls, and either +before Mrs. Hall went to the hospital, or during the four or five days +she was at home before departing for New York, that Oswald telephoned +to speak with Marina. This was on a Saturday evening. + +16. I recall the time that Oswald reported he had lost his job at +Leslie Welding Company. It was the first week-end in October 1962. +My recollection is that it was agreed that Marina would come to Mrs. +Hall's house to stay while Oswald looked for a job in Dallas. I am +uncertain whether Marina was brought directly to the Halls from the +Mercedes Street apartment. There may have been something about Marina +being taken to the Taylors' apartment in Dallas for a few days so that +she could have some dental care at the Baylor University Clinic in +Dallas. I do recall clearly that Mrs. Hall had a pickup truck which +was owned by the dental laboratory where she was employed. Mrs. Hall +had permission to drive to and from work with the pickup truck. It +was agreed that the Oswald household goods and other paraphernalia +would be moved to the Halls in the pickup truck. It may well be that +Marina went directly to the Taylors; that the Oswald household goods +and paraphernalia was taken to the Halls; and that Marina came to the +Halls when her dental care at Baylor Clinic was completed. I understand +Marina's appointments were on October 8th, 10th and 15th. It is my +recollection, however, that the Oswald goods were packed in the trailer +by John Hall and Mrs. Hall and were taken to the Halls. It may be that +Oswald helped. My impression is that this was done on a Monday, but +since, as I have now been advised, Oswald apparently worked at Leslie +Welding Company on Monday, October 8th, that the transfer of the Oswald +goods did not take place until Monday night after Oswald returned from +his last working day at Leslie Welding Company. It was at Mrs. Hall's +invitation that Marina went to live at Mrs. Hall's house. + +17. In any event, I recall that nothing was heard from Oswald for a +number of days after Marina came to Mrs. Halls to live. I assumed he +was in Dallas, and knowing that the distance between Dallas and Mrs. +Hall's home in Fort Worth was great, I thought relatively nothing of +this, except that I thought that he should have telephoned. + +18. On a good many of the occasions that I dropped by the Hall +residence during my luncheon hour, I found that Marina had not yet +awakened. I would have to arouse her by ringing the door bell and +banging on the front door. I would find the household unkept, unwashed +dishes in the sink or on the eating table, and her's and the baby's +clothing strewn about the room. Marina would come to the door in a +wrap-around, her hair disheveled and her eyes heavy with the effect of +many hours of sleep. She would make some excuses about sleeping late. + +On other occasions I was frequently in the Hall home when Mrs. Hall was +home in the evenings and on weekends. I noticed that Marina did nothing +to help Mrs. Hall in the house. Mrs. Hall often complained to me that +Marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would +not do anything around the house to help. I observed on many occasions +that Marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly. + +19. I was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset. I +could not understand how he had been able to go to Russia and return +with seeming ease, especially since he had attempted to defect and +because I was aware that my cousin had not been able to get his wife +and child out of Russia although he now lives in Poland. Also, I was +alarmed from the outset by Oswald's talk. Other friends told me he +frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to +the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous +of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no +unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that +capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that +in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas +in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in +clinics you always had to pay something. + +20. I saw magazines about Russia in the Oswald apartment on Mercedes +Street. Some were in the Russian language and some were in English. +There were also newspapers in the Russian language. + +21. I have always been very grateful to America. Americans have been +very kind to me and I think a good deal of this country. It upset me +when Oswald would say things against the United States. I did not argue +with him because he appeared to me to be dangerous in his mind and I +was frightened. I once said to him that, unlike him, I had come to this +country for freedom and not to look for trouble by criticizing the +United States; that while I did not have much money, I did have freedom +and opportunity and Americans were kind to me. + +22. I and Mrs. Hall, Mrs. Meller, George Bouhe, and the others were +disturbed that Oswald flatly declined to make any effort to teach +Marina English. He said he wanted to keep his Russian sharpened up. We +thought this was very selfish of him. He would speak to other members +of our group in Russian. I refused to discuss anything with him in +Russian. I told him that if he wanted to talk with me he would have +to talk to me in English; that he was born and raised in this country +and his national tongue was English and he should be proud to speak +English. I never answered him at any time in Russian. I thought at +times he was bent on making Marina dissatisfied with the United States +and also that he did not want her to have friends. + +23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to +her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as +though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender to her. I +feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I +saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I +heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe, and others that Oswald +was physically mistreating her. + +24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded +to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a +small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. +This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much +money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not +express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he +evidenced displeasure and contempt. + +25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to +others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the +Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He +acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from +time to time that Marina was pretending and acting. + +26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his +troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the +whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what +he wanted; that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and +that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself. + +27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her +that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a +little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who +was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. +It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything. + +28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and +all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared +for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the +United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and +because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes +skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate +about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of +their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's +mistreatment of her. + +29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper +about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to +Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he +is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the +Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the +Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into +this country, and if they did not do anything about it, it was probably +all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became +completely reassured. + +30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give +any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later +with the others she and her baby were utterly dependent upon their +host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she +wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts. + +Signed this 16th day of June 1964. + + (S) Alexander Kleinlerer, + ALEXANDER KLEINLERER. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON + +The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, +1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. +Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the +staff of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be sworn? + +Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition +do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Be seated, please. You are Mrs. Donald Gibson? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are the former Alexandra De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were at one time married to Mr. Gary Taylor, of +Dallas, Tex.? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You now live in Wingdale, N.Y.? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your address in Wingdale? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Harlem Valley State Hospital, Building 28, Wingdale, N.Y. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you are employed at the hospital? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a State mental institution? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your husband also employed there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Our information is that you were born on Christmas Day 1943? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That was here in the United States? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. New York, to be exact? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you are now 20 years of age and will be 21 next +December? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father is George Sergei De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne Fomenko De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. F-o-m-e-n-k-o? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. Also at one point in her life, Jeanne Bogoiavlensky; is +that correct? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Bogoiavlensky. + +Mr. JENNER. You were a resident of Dallas, Tex., in 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then married to Gary Taylor? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your address? + +Mrs. GIBSON. 3519 Fairmount. + +Mr. JENNER. You married Mr. Taylor at a very early age as I recall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. November 21, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't care for the details, but after you married Mr. +Taylor, you and he lived in various places in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of his employment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he did all sorts of things. He went to school at one +time, to college. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; in Arlington. We lived in Arlington, too. + +Mr. JENNER. What college was that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Arlington State. I can't recall all the jobs he did. I +mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's get to 1962. What was he doing then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He was working off and on with a photographer, working +on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. He also, he and this friend +of his, Steve Moore, were trying to found this little company of +landscaping. That didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography +business. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his first name? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it is---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his birthday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. December 24, I think 1939. + +Mr. JENNER. So he was older, 4 years older than you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He was 4 years older than me; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you were subsequently divorced? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of +last year. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mrs. GIBSON. 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it there is a waiting period then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Three months. + +Mr. JENNER. So the decree was entered the 15th of January? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and +asked him to please divorce me. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a +divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the +year 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you been separated prior to that time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; in 1961, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a child? + +Mrs. GIBSON. One child. + +Mr. JENNER. Born of that marriage? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that child's name? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Curtis Lee Taylor. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that child born? + +Mrs. GIBSON. February 10, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year +1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina +Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name +of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With whom did you become acquainted first? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put +it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became +acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as +closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked +me---- + +Mr. JENNER. At your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care +of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she +stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one +on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the +date, I imagine you know it better than I do. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know anything better than you do. + +Mrs. GIBSON. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the +dates at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it the month of September? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. As I said, I thought it was before September. + +Mr. JENNER. Before September? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about the weather? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could +have been---- + +Mr. JENNER. Could it have been in August? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It could have been the latter part of August. It seems to +me that would be about right. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your +stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally +curious as to who they were? + +Mrs. GIBSON. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were +recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort +Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same +age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if +we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if +I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their +apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, they didn't have any room in the De +Mohrenschildts' apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression +that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance +with these people? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think they just recently met them. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the impression? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That was the impression I got. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what day of the week--that is, not the +particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the +week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday. + +Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the +early morning of the next day. + +Mr. JENNER. That you met Marina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That I met Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina come alone? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; my stepmother brought her and the child. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in the morning? + +Mrs. GIBSON. In the morning; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe your apartment, will you please? + +Mrs. GIBSON. How do you mean describe it? + +Mr. JENNER. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, +kitchen, dining room? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all. + +Mr. JENNER. And they consisted of? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. +There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be +classified as a whole room. + +Mr. JENNER. Sort of more of a dressing room? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. My child slept in that room. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, +normally sleep? + +Mrs. GIBSON. We slept in the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your normal practice? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; it wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed +with you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home at that time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for +work? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work. + +Mr. JENNER. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived? + +Mrs. GIBSON. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, +I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that +afternoon, after she came back from the dentist. + +Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took +her to the dentist? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. They returned? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That afternoon. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight +and into the next day? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening? + +Mrs. GIBSON. They slept in the bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your +son Curtis was? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that +Marina stayed with me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did someone bring him or did he come alone? + +Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know, he came alone. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to the place from which he had +come? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know where he had come from. + +Mr. JENNER. But he came alone? + +Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina able to speak English? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not a word. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any problems in that connection? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a +few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not +fluent in Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you understand Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. A few words. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he does. + +Mr. JENNER. And your stepmother? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any +fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Except your understanding of a few words? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event you are unable to speak it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak +English or Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. When he arrived, did he speak with his child? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what language did he speak with the child? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation +with his child was in Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just +playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of +course once in a while he'd lapse into English. + +Mr. JENNER. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And also the following day while she was at the dentist? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you get along with the child? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Not very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Pardon? I didn't understand you. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you didn't get along very well with the child. +State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to +cry. She whimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got +near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to +get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to +her own parents. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to +her in English as distinguished from Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she +had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have +had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by +her mother and her father. + +Mr. JENNER. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the +Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the +Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee +Oswald address his child other than in Russian? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I +imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I +mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with +Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even +tried to teach her English, never attempted to. + +Mr. JENNER. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and +as you say, he never tried to teach her English? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out +of the ordinary? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid +and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his +Russian. She, of course--in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy. +Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a +license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem +to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more +education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent +on him. + +Mr. JENNER. During all the period that you and your husband were +acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either +of them returning to Russia? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; he did not want to go back. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United +States. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't +agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us +what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he +expressed them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than +anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of +want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of +any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, +exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called +perfect state? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. Actually I think he believed in no government +whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all +together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to +anything except himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for +making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a +Utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as +he saw fit? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't +know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very +important person without putting anything into it at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the +highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He +resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in +government or, oh, in let's say the police force or anything like +that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there discussions between your husband and him on +these subjects? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the +highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did +your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify +himself for those positions and that high pay? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for +nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good +position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no +anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious +person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an +objective and work toward something? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted. + +Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in +his lap? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't +think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected +things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, +he was extremely devoted. + +Mr. JENNER. He was devoted to his concepts? + +Mrs. GIBSON. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his +mind no matter what you said to him. + +Mr. JENNER. He was rigid in his views then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Very, very rigid in his ideas. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you +had these discussions? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia +was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that +Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just +as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious +about it and your husband too, I assume? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of +course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about +Russia, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said +in that connection? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he +said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said +he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary +Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time +leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty? + +Mrs. GIBSON. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year +to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared +him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become +a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, +and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but +they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him +to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working +papers. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as +to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his +citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They +kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to +work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously +he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were +supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. +And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really +want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when +he first went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his +citizenship at that time voluntarily? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about +voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't +recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their +courtship and marriage? + +Mrs. GIBSON. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he +met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that +manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly +how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know +what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I +guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "went out" you meant began to date? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. +And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your +recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That +is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her +presence? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this +to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to +the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't +very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. +Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression in any event? + +Mrs. GIBSON. This is what I was told, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had +this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that +impression? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of +love lost between them. + +Mr. JENNER. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina +and Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, +always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall +in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, +physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know +what you would call him, her fiance, Alex---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. I don't know his name. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe him to us. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Describe him? + +Mr. JENNER. Physically. + +Mrs. GIBSON. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, +European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, +very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy +customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few +languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I +have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee +at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat +her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any of this occur in your presence? + +Mrs. GIBSON. One afternoon he was telling Lee off very, very---- + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us where this occurred? + +Mrs. GIBSON. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. You were present? + +Mrs. GIBSON. And my husband; we were both present. + +Mr. JENNER. And who else please? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, +and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up +Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a +tongue lashing. + +Mr. JENNER. And what response did he obtain from Lee? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there +was going to be a fight there for a minute. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these +accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He said it was none of his business. + +Mr. JENNER. But he didn't deny that he had done this? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your +husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; we never talked to him about beating his wife. We just +talked to him about how he should teach her English, how it was very +important for her to know English. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that that phase, that is the teaching of English +to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your +acquaintanceship with Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes; very often. + +Mr. JENNER. And his response always was that he didn't want to lose---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't want to lose his Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak +to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the +same time she could be taught English? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; we just gave up. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious +person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely +nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed +to expect it of you. + +Mr. JENNER. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and +your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. +You did a number of things for him; did you not? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't +have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't +owe him anything. But we did try to help. + +Mr. JENNER. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he +express any appreciation or thanks. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we +moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank +you, and that was that. + +Mr. JENNER. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any +evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few +meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He +never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I +felt that I didn't owe him a thing. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Marina, on the other hand, in this connection? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think Marina was appreciative. + +Mr. JENNER. Discounting the difficulty of communication? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was +exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she +would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank +goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help +with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning +the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do +because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Exactly the same complaint: that Marina slept very late, +which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did +not help with the house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat +around and took care of the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Over this period--let me fix the period of time. You first +met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of +August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswalds? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could +have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am +not sure which. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. 1962; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3-1/2 months +in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given +one occasion. + +Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Over that 3-1/2 month period, the Oswalds were in your home +no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of +them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He +popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I +didn't see her. + +Mr. JENNER. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's +visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her +to the dentist on the second day as well? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she return to Fort Worth that day? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken? + +Mrs. GIBSON. My stepmother took her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at +that time? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they must have been staying at that duplex. + +Mr. JENNER. On Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is where they must have been staying. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in that home or apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about +2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit +them in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Weekday or weekend? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Sunday. + +Mr. JENNER. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been early September or late August. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a visit on your part? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit +them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was anyone there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that +Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just +leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not +too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't +meet her. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you know where they lived? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Lee I believe--Lee gave us their address. + +Mr. JENNER. On what occasion did he give you their address? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped +in. I don't really know. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home +at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he came to visit the first evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you expected him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had +told my stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told +me. Somebody had said something. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he stay the evening and then leave? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He stayed about an hour and then he left. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you notice with respect to the relations +between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say they got along fairly well. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at +that time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't get any impression one way or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and +your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have +mentioned? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not +sure. He must have. They must have talked about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of +employment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an +apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who +were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the +possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee +and the baby and Marina. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit, +some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas. + +I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there. +Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other +people besides them. + +Mr. JENNER. I will mention some names. Mamantov? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Meller? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is +possible, but I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe I knew them. + +Mr. JENNER. They were friends of your father and stepmother? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I +have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me +this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra +man that was there. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to whether it had been +expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think they just dropped in. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they stay very long? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I left before they left. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You +couldn't tell what was going on. + +Mr. JENNER. These were by and large Russian-speaking people? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe the apartment to me, will you please? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was +a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, +good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was +rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald +throughout the 3-1/2 month period, as to his dress and his self-respect +and care? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't +clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. +Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven, +but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress. + +Mr. JENNER. And Marina on the other hand? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say she was fairly clean. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect +to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he +conduct himself in the presence of others? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very +polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he +wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could +be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were. + +Mr. JENNER. Which was predominant? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy, +not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued +with him but it was always a friendly argument. When I saw him with +other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could +be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you. + +Mr. JENNER. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat +of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when +they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very--he +didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly, +quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in +silence for hours. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with +respect to--that is did he--let's take your father's folks, did he have +respect for your father? Did he like him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of +respect for him. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband Gary? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I would imagine he did. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your impression? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee, +though. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee did visit at your home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he did on occasion seek out your husband? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your husband occasionally sought out him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that +milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the +Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot +of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting +a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, +coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well. + +Alex--what did you say his name was? + +Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer. + +Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you +mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so +I don't know his opinion on them. + +Mr. JENNER. These people were trying to help, were they not? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; especially George Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help +him. He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed +to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was +contemptuous of any of them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. +I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than +my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the +whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with +Marina and a lot with Lee. + +She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too. +George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did your father become disgusted with them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to +get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his +treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total +indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, +got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed +up. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his +position in Fort Worth, isn't that so? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine, I don't know if he lost it or if he quit. I +believe he said he quit. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, now that you have said that, the fact is that +he did quit. Now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the 8th of +October 1962, which was, I think, a Tuesday but I will check on that to +make sure. That was a Monday. + +Now, between that Sunday afternoon which would be either late in August +or some time in September, and the 8th of October, which was a Monday, +when he left the Leslie Welding Co., had you seen the Oswalds? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Between when? + +Mr. JENNER. Between the Sunday that you visited them and the 8th of +October. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we had. We might have. He might have +popped in. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. Is this before he stayed at the YMCA? This is before, +isn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. To help you in that respect, he stayed at the YMCA +October 15 through October 19, 1962. + +Mrs. GIBSON. He might have popped in. I don't recall whether he did or +not. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, from that Sunday to +October 8, had Marina stayed with you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall Lee Oswald being in Fort Worth at the YMCA, +however, do you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. JENNER. I mean in Dallas. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we took him there. + +Mr. JENNER. You did take him to the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, that was the 15th of October? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962. Where was Marina then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. She might have been with us at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you went to Fort Worth and picked him +up and took him to the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of that circumstance. + +Mrs. GIBSON. All I can remember is letting him off at the YMCA. I am +almost positive we wouldn't go to Fort Worth, though, to pick him up. +No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a Monday. + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was the afternoon when we dropped him at the Y. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have no present recollection where you picked him +up, whether---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances +were? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I sure don't. I think he might have come to our house, +but I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay with you during this October period at all? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us the time that he was in the +YMCA. + +Mr. JENNER. That is? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us about 5 days. + +Mr. JENNER. That is 5 days? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no. + +Mr. JENNER. But she did stay with you during a period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. A few; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether +you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your +home or whether Lee brought her? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe Lee brought her. I think it would +be more--it would be normal to assume, I don't remember this, that +my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because I know we +didn't. I don't recall picking her up at all. + +Mr. JENNER. But she stayed with you then, you think, during the period +that he was at the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did Lee visit at your home while she was there during +this YMCA period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether your husband Gary went over to the +YMCA and picked him up and brought him to your home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so. I think he came by bus, or walked. +That was possible, too. It wasn't that far. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your apartment at 3519 Fairmont with +respect to the location of the Dallas YMCA. That was downtown? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was almost downtown. I believe it was on Maple +Avenue or very near Maple Avenue. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, the YMCA was? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and Maple Avenue, we were only one block off of Maple +Avenue. We ran parallel with Maple, Fairmont did, and we were only 1 +block off of Maple, and I'd say it was, oh, maybe 12 blocks from the +YMCA. + +Mr. JENNER. An easy walk? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 12 or 14, maybe farther, but it was not a real +long walk. It is possible to walk the distance. Bus service was very +frequent and very easy to get. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the +fact that Lee obtained a position at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th +of October? That is while he was at the YMCA, he had already obtained +this position and had begun to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He began to work there while he was at the Y? + +Mr. JENNER. He went to work on the 12th of October 1962. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh my goodness. Well, it is possible that we knew this. I +know, I remember that he was employed there because I remember he used +to tell Gary how he liked the job, how that interested him. + +Now, when I thought he was employed there I don't know. I remember +when he was at the Y that he was looking for a place to live in the +Dallas-Oak Cliff area. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you or your ex-husband Gary or both of you help him to +look? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe one evening we went out with them and +looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place +where we used to live--and Worthington, and just in the general +low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be +working. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you knew at that time where he was working or going +to work? + +Mrs. GIBSON. We knew the location of the place where he was working. + +Now, I am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we +thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed +but not working yet. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mrs. Hall having been involved in an +automobile accident? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in October, was it not, 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what the month was, but I imagine it was. It +must have been in the latter part of October. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Marina residing with Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. She was with Mrs. Hall before the accident and after the +accident and while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital she lived at the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall also that Mrs. Hall, after she returned from +the hospital, went to New York City? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And that while she was in New York City, that Marina stayed +at her home also? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether during that period Lee Oswald stayed at +the Halls'? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he did. I believe, while Mrs. Hall was in the +hospital; he stayed with Marina while she was alone for 2, 3, or 4 +days, something like that. He was there off and on. He spent quite a +few nights there, I know this. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you and your husband or +either of you were at the Halls' when Oswald was there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe we took him to Fort Worth once to visit, and we +stayed for supper, and Mrs. Hall was there and she cooked us supper. +This is before her accident, and Alex was there and Marina and Gary and +myself. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, +is it, or had you done so? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was the occasion where Alex and Lee got into an +argument; yes. And this was prior to Mrs. Hall's accident. We stayed +until fairly late in the evening. I can't remember if we brought Lee +back with us or if he spent the night. It would seem logical, I think +we brought Lee back with us. + +Mr. JENNER. You brought him back to where? + +Mrs. GIBSON. To Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. To where in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I can't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. This was before he stayed at the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was after. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was before her accident. This is while Marina was +there. + +Mr. JENNER. To help orient you, she was in the hospital from the 18th +of October 1962 to the 26th of October 1962. + +Mrs. GIBSON. This is before her accident. I think only a couple of days +before her accident or a day before, because I remember how shocked I +was when I heard that she had been in an accident. It was only a day or +two before, so where would he have been living, at the Y, wouldn't he, +at that time? + +Mr. JENNER. He would be at the Y. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He was at the Y on the 15th. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine that is where we dropped him then. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that +Lee stayed with Marina at the Halls' from time to time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Mrs. Hall told me--he told me and Marina---- + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald told you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and Marina told me in a roundabout fashion. + +Mr. JENNER. How? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she'd tell, you know, Mrs. Hall to tell me something +and Mrs. Hall would tell me, that is how, or through Lee, or through +gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or where, I will put it that way, where +Lee stayed between the 19th of October 1962, when he left the Y, and +November 3, 1962, when they moved into the Elsbeth Street apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I know that he stayed part of the time, I'd say a good +portion of the time, at Mrs. Hall's. Now, whether he had another +residence I don't know. I know he spent a few evenings with my father. +If he spent a night there I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say he spent a few evenings with your father, I +infer from that--and if my inference is wrong please tell me--that +there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not occasions. I think possibly one or two times. But +he would be over there evenings and they would talk. Then he would +leave. Now, where he went to I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that there were at least several +occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. It +is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he +had a room. But I don't know where. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. During that period; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From the 19th to the 3d? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room +somewhere. Where I don't know. I just can't think. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that either you or your husband +ever went to visit him at some room? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; Gary possibly, but me, no. Gary might have picked him +up some place, but not me. I don't recall. It is just so vague and +maybe it is just because you think there was one that I say this. But I +feel that there was a room some place. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you +at any time an address? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. At which Lee, a place where Lee was staying during this +period from October 19 to November 3? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. She might have, but I have no recollection of +it whatsoever. But then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and I +might have just not even thought of what she said. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, it is your recollection that during this +period, October 19 through November 3, that Lee did stay a good portion +of the time at the Halls? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With Marina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near +where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he +was working. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your former husband Gary's recollection, and he +seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; no idea. Did Gary mention something about one +night we were in Oak Cliff and we were looking for some place. + +Mr. JENNER. He said you were looking for Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Is that what he said? And we went up and down and up +and down and we never found the place. I recall one evening, I don't +remember what we were looking for, but I recall this. + +Mr. JENNER. You were looking for Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Is that who we were looking for? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know, I am not sure, but one evening Gary and I +were looking for some place, and I don't know where it was. But it was +in Oak Cliff. It was right over the river. And we went up and down and +back and forth for a good hour looking for this address. And I can't +think of where it was, and we never found it. I do remember that. We +never found it. + +Mr. JENNER. But it had something to do with Oswald? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it did. I think it had to do with a room that he +had over there, but where it was, the address, I don't know. I never +knew Oak Cliff very well in the first place. + +Mr. JENNER. You say he was now employed and could afford a room? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but I don't know where. I--we couldn't find it +wherever it was, because we looked. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did have an address at that time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I had an address for something I was looking for. What +it was I don't know. If I was looking for him or if I was looking for +somebody else, if Gary was looking for somebody, I don't recall. But +it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. I don't +know how Gary thinks I can remember an address, though. I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you assisted Marina and Lee +to move into the Elsbeth Street apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. Weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a weekend? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, +but then with Gary working as a cabdriver, I don't know if it was or +not, because he sometimes worked weekends. They were good days to work. +Saturday was very good. Was it a Sunday? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Wait a minute, it was a Saturday, the 3d of November +1962, was a Saturday. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from +that day? + +Mr. JENNER. The advice of the landlord or manager of the building was +they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend +rather than a weekday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I wouldn't know. It could have been. It seems more logical +that it would have been a weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that from the beginning. What led up to +it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when we were over in Fort Worth visiting Mrs. Hall, +we had taken Lee over there to see Marina, we told them we would help +them move when he found a place, and he came by one evening or---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. This then was after he had obtained a job? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He either called or came by one evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion when you went over to +see them? + +Mrs. GIBSON. When we moved them or before, that other time? + +Mr. JENNER. That other time. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. So this was subsequent to October 26? + +Mrs. GIBSON. And also we were over there to visit them also another +time after she had the accident, and I remember she was in bed. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after she went to the hospital? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was after, right after, when she came home and she was +still in bed. It was before she went to New York. + +Mr. JENNER. She came back on the 26th of October? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion? Was he there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion when you told him that you would help +him move? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When he found a place? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he said he was looking. And I believe---- + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was at the Halls' on that occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think we took him there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, he was not at the YMCA. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not staying at the Halls'? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; he came to our apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. So he must have been staying somewhere in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he must have been. He came to our apartment. I don't +ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking +him up at any place in particular. See, that is my problem. But I do +remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would +help them move. And I guess he must have called us or come to visit +us about moving, and we took our car and I think, I don't know if we +rented a trailer, I think they rented a trailer in Fort Worth, I am not +sure, and left it in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's get it sequentially. You left your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee came to your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the morning was it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Morning or early afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you left your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You, your husband, and Lee? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you go? + +Mrs. GIBSON. To drop the baby off. + +Mr. JENNER. Your baby? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With a sitter? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; to Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. GIBSON. From there we went to Fort Worth to Mrs. Hall's, and then +Lee and Gary went to rent a trailer, and I stayed with Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I guess she was in New York. So, they came +back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, and +Alex---- + +Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Kleinlerer came by, I guess to supervise the moving, to +see that nothing was taken of Mrs. Hall's, and he watched us move and +we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in Oak +Cliff, Elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. By then it was early +evening, and then we left them there. We looked over the apartment and +we left them there. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband rented that trailer? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think Lee did; didn't he? I don't think Gary paid for +it. Did Gary pay for it? I can't imagine Gary paying for it. He might +have, but I don't see it. + +Mr. JENNER. Apart from that, did Lee thank you for spending the day? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Very briefly, thank you, and that was all. Marina was not +happy with the apartment at all. She said it was filthy dirty, it was a +pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. Lee said it could be fixed up. + +Mr. JENNER. What was their attitude toward each other on that occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. They were arguing. + +Mr. JENNER. During the day when you reached the Elsbeth Street +apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much during the day but after she saw the +apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much +when we left. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she had not seen it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she had; no. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was a hole. It was terrible, very dirty, very badly +kept, really quite a slum. It had possibilities to be fixed up. It was +large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, +lots of doors, lots of windows. The floor had big bumps in it, you +know. It was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you +know, to get from one side of the room to the other. It was not a nice +place; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a brick structure, wooden? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was brick outside, dark red brick. It was a small +apartment building. I think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage +and people. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the Oswald's in that apartment thereafter? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your husband did? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think he told me when I came back to Dallas in December +that he visited them once. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then that sometime after November 3, you left +Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I left Dallas the latter part of November. + +Mr. JENNER. And just to orient you, where did you go? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I went to Tucson, Ariz. + +Mr. JENNER. You were with your aunt? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I was by myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you lived in Tucson? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Before that, no; not really. I had been to boarding school +there a few years, and I lived in Tucson 1 year with my aunt in a house +that we rented, and her husband, but I had not lived in Tucson before +this. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's identify her. What was her name? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Tilton. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her full name? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Do you want her first name? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy. + +Mr. JENNER. Nancy Tilton? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy Sands Tilton. + +Mr. JENNER. And her married name? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Charles Elliott Tilton III. + +Mr. JENNER. And in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a +child, lived with her; had you not? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a good many years? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 14 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Fourteen years. Was that in Arizona or Florida? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was all around. I lived in Vermont in the summer, +Arizona in the winter, Florida sometimes. It depended. + +Mr. JENNER. Your aunt was a person of means I gather? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald +when you returned from Arizona? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was then or if it was right before I +left. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you left for what? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Arizona. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. At the apartment. He came by to pick up a manuscript that +I had of his. + +Mr. JENNER. That is at your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you a document that is in evidence in this +proceeding as Commission Exhibit No. 95. Would you examine that and +tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference +several times. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it is. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that +document and how it came into your possession? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I asked Lee if he had written anything on Russia that I +could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he +had a manuscript that he had written on general life in Russia and I +asked him if I could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. He +brought it over one evening. I have no idea of the date or the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance +with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was before they moved to Dallas, to Oak Cliff. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the manuscript with him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did. I told him he should publish it and he said +no, that it was not for people to read. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss its contents with him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; a little bit. I asked him questions about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the +discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I asked him, I believe on this manuscript that it +was said that you could not move from town to town. + +Mr. JENNER. In Russia? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and he was telling me why. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He said that the housing problem was so difficult there +that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had +to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were +not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already +had housing and a job. But for him it was easier because he was an +American, and I guess as he said they were trying to impress him a +little bit. + +Mr. JENNER. In that connection did he imply that he was free to move +about the country as he saw fit? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Freer than Russians I would imagine. He did imply that he +was freer than they were. + +Mr. JENNER. To move around? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say that he had at any time left Minsk to go +anywhere else? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he had been to Moscow. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that in connection with his efforts to return to this +country? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I have no idea. I think it was just to see the countryside. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you look further through that manuscript and see if +your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with +him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a generalization. Tell me what you talked about. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said that the Russian people were very impressed +with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style +that he had. Also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. He told +them about the supermarkets we had here and how plentiful fruit and +vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in Russia, +like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage +cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like +gold. Education we talked about, how much higher their educational +standards are. + +Mr. JENNER. Than ours? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that connection? + +Mrs. GIBSON. They are much higher, that everybody is trained there to +do something. That they have what would be considered, well, like your +elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, I don't +know what it is, 8 or 9 years of school, you take this test, and if +you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. +If you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that +you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or +electricians or plumbers or something like this. You are allowed to +choose whatever you want. You hear, he said, that women are laying +streets, let's say, in Russia and he said that isn't because they are +made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want +to do. That is about the general gist of what he had to say. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall something about a time when little June was +baptized? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, one evening there was a knock at the door and I went +to answer it and Mrs. Hall and Marina and June were outside, and Mrs. +Hall came in and told me that she had just brought Marina and June to +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina and the baby come in the apartment, too? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall said this in the presence of Marina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. She said that they brought the baby to Dallas to be +baptized without Lee knowing it because he would object, and that +Marina had been brought up in Russia with religion, although it was +against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, +and that Lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, +and she asked me please not to tell him. And she left a box of clothes +of his there for me that she had bought him. It was his birthday, I +believe, the next day. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee's birthday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he was born on the 18th of October 1939, so +this was the occasion when he was living at the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. His birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of +days. + +Mr. JENNER. He was at the YMCA from the 15th through the 19th, 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I am getting my days messed up, because I thought she +stayed with us while he was at the YMCA. She must not have. You know, +I can't place when she stayed with us. I can just place the period of +time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over 3 or 4 +days. + +Mr. JENNER. Could it have been right following his leaving the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It possibly could have been. I really don't know. But like +I said, that is something I forgot. Now that you know his birthday, you +can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me. + +Mr. JENNER. She was baptized the day before his birthday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was the day before or 2 days or 3 +days, but it was real close to his birthday. + +Mr. JENNER. Real close? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The records indicate the baptism occurred on the 17th of +October, 1962. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Then it must have been the day before. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you +remember it was about his birthday time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They left a box of clothing or some gift? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things. + +Mr. JENNER. These were new? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Brand new. + +Mr. JENNER. A gift? + +Mrs. GIBSON. A gift; yes. From his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the +YMCA they didn't ring him up or go by the YMCA and leave this birthday +gift? + +Mrs. GIBSON. She didn't want him to know that she was in Dallas because +she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee speak with you on that subject? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I guess it must have been the next day that he +dropped by and I gave him the box, and I didn't say anything about +this, but I think he had heard it. I think he had talked to Marina or +something on the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. He became aware when he came by the next day, which would +be his birthday, that they had---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think she told him on the telephone that she had +baptized the baby, and he asked me if I knew, and I said yes, and he +said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, that it was not any of my +business. + +Mr. JENNER. I am a little bit confused. He came by the next day, that +is the day after Mrs. Hall and Marina were there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he came by to pick up his birthday gifts? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the +baptism? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Therefore, at some subsequent occasion---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. After that---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a discussion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I think it was probably the day after that that he +dropped by and he asked me about this. He asked me if they had been +there, and I said yes. He says, "Why didn't you tell me?" + +Mr. JENNER. Why you didn't tell him what? + +Mrs. GIBSON. That they had been there and that the baby had been +baptized, and I said that it was none of my business. + +Mr. JENNER. The thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and +picked up the birthday gift. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said about baptism. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; I think he---- + +Mr. JENNER. Therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you +got the birthday gift, correct? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I think I had some story fixed up for +that. Mrs. Hall, I think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or +something. I can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you +know, for how come I had that. + +Mr. JENNER. That would explain that, then. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I don't, you know, really remember what was said +exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. The day following that occasion---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. I did not tell him that I had seen Marina, though. + +Mr. JENNER. Is when he approached you on the subject? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the baptism and why you hadn't told him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too +happy about it. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say about the fact that June had been baptized? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much. He wasn't really that upset about it. He +just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. He wasn't terribly +upset about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Gibson, was he upset because the baby had been +baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church rather than the Lutheran +Church, for example? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was an atheist. He just didn't want anything to do +with religion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have discussions with him on the +subject of religion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what were his views on the subject of religion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't believe in it. He didn't believe in God. He +didn't believe in anything. + +Mr. JENNER. And did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more +than one occasion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it was mentioned in with politics. You know how that +can get. The two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked +about probably the most. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression about any view or hope or desire +or ambition on his part of some future attainment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't really talk too much about in the future or what +he wanted to do. I don't know what he wanted to do with himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the +discussions between your husband and Lee? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Never, never. He wasn't President at the time anyway, was +he? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; he was. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he was. He had just become President, hadn't he? No, +he was never mentioned. Now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining +to that was the Governor of Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. He became President in 1960. + +Mrs. GIBSON. It was the Governor of Texas who was mentioned mostly. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mrs. GIBSON. First you are going to have to tell me who the Governor +was. + +Mr. JENNER. Connally. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Connally. Wasn't that the one that---- + +Mr. JENNER. That had been Secretary of the Navy. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That had been Secretary of the Navy, was it? Well, for +some reason Lee just didn't like him. I don't know why, but he didn't +like him. + +Mr. JENNER. Would this refresh your recollection, that the subject +of Governor Connally arose in connection with something about Lee's +discharge from the Marines? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I just know Lee never spoke too much about +why he left the Marines or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe it +was a dishonorable discharge, I don't know. All I know is that it was +something he didn't talk about. And there was a reason why he did not +like Connally. + +Mr. JENNER. Whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason +particularly? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; he just didn't like him. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have the definite impression he had an aversion to +Governor Connally? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but he never ever said a word about Kennedy. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you answer? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your answer is yes? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That he did have a definite aversion? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To Governor Connally as a person? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these +discussions? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not really, no. He didn't bring it up frequently. + +Mr. JENNER. But he was definite and affirmative about it, was he? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he didn't like him. + +Mr. JENNER. Was General Walker ever discussed? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions in these political arguments +between your husband Gary and Lee Oswald about, oh, the American Civil +Liberties Union, the Birch Society, people having, let's say, extreme +right viewpoints or left viewpoints? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Gary was quite a Democrat, and he disliked the Birch +Society intensely. So every once in a while they would come into the +conversation, being that Gary felt so personal about them. He didn't +like them at all. And Gary once in a while would make a comment, "Oh, +he is a Bircher," I can't name any particular person, but just somebody +in particular. + +I think Dallas is a fairly Republican city. No, there was nothing ever +about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. Just I know +Gary disliked the Birchers. As I recall, I don't think Lee had much +to say about them. I think maybe he liked more radical people than we +did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or +something. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you saw either of the Oswalds at +your father's home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when your father and your stepmother +brought either of the Oswalds to your apartment other than those you +have already testified about? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Not that I recall, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall seeing Oswald on the day before he moved into +the YMCA? He moved into the YMCA on Monday, October 15. Did you see him +the previous day, Sunday? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I really don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall taking him to the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mrs. JENNER. On Monday, the 15th? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we might have. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go and pick up Oswald at Mrs. Hall's when you took +him to the YMCA, or did he just come by your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I can't remember where we picked him up, but I know we +didn't go to Fort Worth to pick him up, no. It could have been at the +bus station. + +Mr. JENNER. But you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection? + +Mrs. GIBSON. We could have gone somewhere. He could have come to our +apartment. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of Marina staying with the Halls? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her going to attend to Mrs. Hall; to do +that before she actually went to live with Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I might have heard something about it from my father. I +don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did not hear it from Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know Mrs. Hall until I met her through Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. After Marina---- + +Mrs. GIBSON. When I went to visit there. + +Mr. JENNER. That is when you went to visit Marina while she was staying +at the Hall's? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; when Lee and Gary and I went over there. That is the +first time I ever met her. But she was very friendly because she knew +my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere. + +Did Mrs. Hall give a fixed time of when Marina stayed with her? + +Mr. JENNER. I can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it +was before she had her automobile accident. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, what I am trying to fix in my mind is when Marina +stayed with me, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the 3 or 4 days? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I can't fix that in my mind at all now. I thought it +was when he was at the YMCA and then it couldn't have been because of +when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. But it must have +been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. So it must have +been before. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it wasn't on the 14th of October because you took him +to the YMCA on the 15th. Was Marina living with you then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not then, no. But she might have been shortly before +that. I believe she was at Mrs. Hall's then, wasn't she. Doesn't she +know where she was? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, she has got some impressions; yes. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I hope she does. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out what you recall. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, you know, I can't recall when she was there. I know +when she wasn't there now more than I did before, from placing his +birthday and the box and that, I know she wasn't there then. + +Mr. JENNER. Wasn't where? + +Mrs. GIBSON. At my place. I know she wasn't there then, because she +came to visit me from Fort Worth with Mrs. Hall. But how long she had +been with Mrs. Hall must not have been too long. + +Mr. JENNER. The thing that bothers me, also, Mrs. Gibson, Mrs. Hall +entered the hospital on the 18th of October. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Lee's birthday. She was at your place the preceding +day? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was that night that she got in the accident. +That is why I said it was very shocking when I heard, you know, that +she had been in an accident. + +Mr. JENNER. And at the time she had her accident, Marina was living +with the Halls'? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was living at Mrs. Hall's home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband Gary recalls that while Lee was at the YMCA, +that he came to visit at your home. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is possible. + +Mr. JENNER. And his recollection was that Marina was with you at that +time. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she couldn't have been. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Could it be that she stayed with you for a few +days after he left the YMCA and before they moved into the Elsbeth +Street home or apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how it could be possible, because when +we moved her from Fort Worth, she was at Mrs. Hall's. Now whether she +stayed with me while Mrs. Hall was in New York, she couldn't have +because she was, Mrs. Hall was in New York when we moved Marina, see, +and Marina was there. + +Now, I suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but I +remember she stayed with Mrs. Hall after the accident because Mrs. Hall +needed her. She couldn't get around. I know she was there before the +accident because of the baptism and Lee's birthday. So it leads me to +believe she was there the whole time, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when the Oswalds left the Mercedes Street +apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know when they left that. They moved, from +there they moved all her stuff to Mrs. Hall's. + +Mr. JENNER. Right from the Mercedes apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I guess they must have. All the stuff was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when your father moved Marina and +the baby from the Elsbeth Street apartment to Mrs. Meller's? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the Oswalds living at 214 Neely Street? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Where was that? + +Mr. JENNER. That is just about a block from the Elsbeth Street +apartment, which they moved into from the Elsbeth Street apartment. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That must have been after I left. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't recall anything about that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wasn't there. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall Marina staying 3 or 4 days. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you grasp in your recollection why? What led up to that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was the period before she went to Mrs. Hall's. +It must have been after Lee lost his job, or quit. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and before he got the new one. It must have been +then. And I think it was while they were trying to find her a place to +live, while he was job hunting. + +Mr. JENNER. And before he got his job with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 12th of October? You see that is a 4-day period, +Mrs. Gibson. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Between when he lost his job and got his job? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That is probably where she stayed then. I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. The last day he worked at Leslie Welding was the +8th of October 1962. He became employed and went to work for +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October 1962. + +Mrs. GIBSON. That probably was when she stayed with us, then. I just +don't have any recollection of when it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that she came to stay with +you, the reason why? Was she having difficulty with Oswald? Was that +the reason, or was it because he was out of work? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was because he was out of work. I don't think +they had any money. I think my father lent them money, didn't he? I +don't know. Somebody must have given them money. It was Bouhe, that is +who it was who lent them money. + +Mr. JENNER. It was only 4 days, Mrs. Gibson. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; but he had to have money to get started. He had to +have money to stay at the YMCA. He had to have money to get started, +and I know who gave him money. George Bouhe did. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; George Bouhe did, there is no question about that. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Because I recall that. He gave him money, and he also had +the debt to pay to the American Embassy. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to where Oswald stayed +prior to the time that he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October, that +is between the 8th of October and the 15th of October? That is a week. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; all I know is he never did stay at our place overnight +ever. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you were looking for this address, was +it an address on North Beckley? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It is possible that it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that stimulate your recollection at all? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; it doesn't. I just know that Beckley is near the river. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were looking in the area. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Near the river; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, between the 19th of October and the 3d of November, +which was the day you picked up Oswald and Marina and the baby and took +them to the Elsbeth Street apartment, do you know where Oswald was +staying? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; but it was probably in that area where I was looking, +you know. I am not even sure who I was looking for, but it seems +possible. I don't know anybody else in Oak Cliff, you know. If that +is anywhere near the Jaggars Co., and I think it is, that is probably +where, and who we were looking for. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other +than the first period, the first visit in August of 1962? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think she might have had another appointment. That +possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but I +am not positive. It seems to me you know by the dentist records if she +had. I remember she had teeth pulled. Now, how many--and, as I recall, +those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had +healed. But I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay at the Halls' on more than one occasion, +that is periods? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it just one period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was one period. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have anything to do with Mrs. Hall's accident? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Why Marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left? + +Mr. JENNER. Why she went there in the first instance. + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; Mrs. Hall had not had her accident when Marina first +moved in. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall aware that Marina had stayed at your home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think so. In fact, I could almost say positively she +must have been aware of it. + +Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I mean she never knew that Marina and I knew each +other. She brought her to my place. I had told her that, I believe I +myself, told her that Marina had stayed with me. I mean it is just in +common conversation that she must have known. Didn't she know? + +Mr. JENNER. Including this 3- or 4-day period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she must have known because that was before Marina +stayed with her. Does she know? + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't mention it in her testimony. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Am I the last one to testify? + +Mr. JENNER. No. Mrs. Gibson, were you aware that Lee Oswald gave your +apartment address and your telephone number--when I say your I mean you +and your husband--when he was seeking employment in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in your presence? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on +the 15th of October? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the +12th of October. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a +residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where +if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him +and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there +had been any calls for him or messages during the day. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were there any calls or messages? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? +That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that +he would be looking for a job. + +Mr. JENNER. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, +and 11th. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our +phone number; I am sure he was. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall where he was staying during that +period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Could he have been staying at Hall's? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good +deal or portions of the time that Marina was there? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was +working. He spent the weekends there. + +Mr. JENNER. When he was working at Jaggars? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th +of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. +Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at +the Hall's on weekends? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So there was some place he was staying then himself during +that period? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; there must have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From Dallas, isn't it? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't stay in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. He stayed in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I have no idea. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay +in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I know that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--after he became employed at Jaggars? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes +by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back +Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that +he was staying in Dallas at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats +between the two of you along about this time? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; we had been spatting all our life. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean were you on speaking terms? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say so. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up +Oswald in front of the YMCA? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. + +Mr. JENNER. Bring him to your apartment? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe +Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of +temperance or intemperance, drinking? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I never saw him take a drink. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't think he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke? + +Mrs. GIBSON. On the sly. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He +didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any +makeup. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it +across to each other, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. How did she communicate with you? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough +you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, +you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, +get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make +too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I +do know this about makeup and smoking. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there arguments between them on the subject? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear +lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his reading habits? + +Mrs. GIBSON. He read a lot. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? + +Mrs. GIBSON. My father had given him books to read. He was very much +interested in them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your +place? + +Mrs. GIBSON. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him +to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one +way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm." + +Mr. JENNER. What is that book about? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a +takeoff on people. Orwell--did he write it? + +Mr. JENNER. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you +gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to +read? + +Mrs. GIBSON. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave +it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and +then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any other books? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know +what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had read it before? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when +he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my +father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third +Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography? + +Mr. JENNER. "Mein Kampf"? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he read the Marx book--what was that, was that the +Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism? + +Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book +that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his +literature. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was +Natasha or Evalina? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I know Natasha. + +Mr. JENNER. How did Natasha come into this? + +Mrs. GIBSON. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure +I have got the right one. + +Mr. JENNER. I can't give it to you. + +Mrs. GIBSON. You don't have it? + +Mr. JENNER. I can't because I don't know. + +Mrs. GIBSON. You can't because you don't have it? Really? + +Mr. JENNER. Really. + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some +numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she a single lady? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; she has a husband. + +Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for +the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha +was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. +Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together +again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, +whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query +of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I +figured probably she would know them. That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. You were speculating? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have +no idea. + +Mr. JENNER. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had +stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your +recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her +moving into the Hall's? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't +have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said +that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that +I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are +very vague. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his +mother in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Maybe. + +Mr. JENNER. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in +Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say +this? + +Mr. JENNER. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the +Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced +or attempted to renounce his American citizenship? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject even discussed? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the +Russians wanted him to give it up. + +Mr. JENNER. And he declined to? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina politically minded? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say so. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was religious? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say she was. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very intelligent. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he articulate? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what about his argumentation? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he +was saying. + +Mr. JENNER. He was strong in his convictions? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Unbending? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered +or prone to violence? + +Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very quick tempered. + +Mr. JENNER. He flared up, did he, during these arguments? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And other things, with your husband? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, +I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate +me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call +us stupid a lot. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that because you differed in your view? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Differed with him. + +Mr. JENNER. From him? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we +weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could +you possibly say such a thing?" + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When did they go to Haiti? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Last year some time. + +Mr. JENNER. June of 1963. + +Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago. + +Mr. JENNER. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, +did they? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported +to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, +of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your +apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. +Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your +home was longer than 3 to 4 days? + +Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks +I must have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, +because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time +of 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. +Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed +a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the +creation of this Commission? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 +which created the Commission? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and +responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances +surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President +John Fitzgerald Kennedy? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the +Commission under which depositions are taken? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you understand from all those papers that the +Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or +unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did +have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you have now elucidated. + +I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of +the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a +member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of +the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would +like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its +investigation of this subject? + +Mrs. GIBSON. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much +your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RUTH HYDE PAINE + +The following affidavit was executed by Ruth Hyde Paine on June 24, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +Ruth Hyde Paine, being affirmed, says: + +1. I reside at 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas. I am the Ruth Hyde +Paine who testified before the Commission on March 18, 19 and 20, 1964, +and gave testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. at the offices of +the Commission on Saturday, March 21, 1964, and gave further testimony +by deposition in my home the evening of Monday, March 23, 1964. + +2. On the occasion of Saturday, November 9, 1963, about which I +testified before the Commission, when I took Marina and Lee Oswald in +my station wagon to the Texas Automobile Drivers Bureau Station in +the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to make +application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two +children and both of the Oswald children, June and Rachel, accompanied +us. + +3. Upon our arrival at the Automobile Drivers License Bureau, which +was located in a shopping center area in Oak Cliff, we discovered +that the Automobile Drivers License Bureau was closed. All of us went +down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately +three doors down the street from the Automobile Drivers License Bureau +Station. We entered the store. I purchased some child panties for my +children and Marina selected and Lee paid for an infant's pacifier. + +4. After we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, +entered it, and I drove directly to my home in Irving, Texas. Upon +arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout +the balance of that day and evening. Marina and Lee Oswald and their +children were present in my home throughout the two following days and +evenings, November 10 and 11, 1963. Lee Oswald returned to his work at +the Texas School Book Depository Tuesday morning, November 12, 1963. I +was present in my home throughout November 10 and 11, 1963, except as +described in paragraph 13. + +5. During the course of my testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. +on Saturday, March 21, 1964, Mr. Jenner examined me with respect to the +various entries in my calendar diary, Commission Exhibit No. 401, for +the period commencing and following September 24, 1963, including, in +particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments +for June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, in clinics in Irving, Texas, and +in Dallas, Texas, as well as other appointments for June Oswald. On +all occasions following Marina's return to my home from Parkland +Hospital on October 22, 1963, following the birth of her daughter +Rachel on October 20, 1963, when baby clinic, dental and other medical +and physical attention appointments for either of Marina's children +were made, and about which I have heretofore testified, I drove to +the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each +of my children and by Marina and both of her children. This was so +irrespective of which of Marina's children was to receive medical or +other attention. + +6. There were a number of occasions subsequent to September 24, 1963, +on which Marina and both of her children accompanied me when I drove in +my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about Irving, +Texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. On each of these +occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. Understandably, +Marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around +Irving, Texas, when convenient to me. I understood this and often went +out of my way to invite her to come with me. She always brought her +daughter June and after the birth of her daughter Rachel, also brought +her. + +7. On none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter +any furniture store. This includes the Furniture Mart, a store that +was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas, which I now +understand was owned and operated during its existence by one Edith +Whitworth. + +8. There were only two occasions during all the period in the Fall of +1963 that I took Marina and Lee together in my station wagon to Dallas, +Texas, or anywhere in Irving, Texas. One occasion was a trip to Dallas, +Texas, the morning of November 9, 1963, which I have mentioned above. +(The other is described in paragraph 14.) I do not know Mrs. Whitworth. +I never visited her place of business, nor did I ever drive Lee Oswald +or Marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge +and recollection, Marina was never at or in that place of business with +or without Lee Oswald during the period she resided in my home in the +Fall of 1963. + +9. At no time after Marina and I and our children arrived in Irving, +Texas, on September 24, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, did I ever +take Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald to the Irving Sports Shop, which is +located at 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas. I was quite aware +during all of this period of Marina's activities and where she was. I +know of no occasion when either she or Lee Oswald visited either the +Furniture Mart or the Irving Sports Shop. + +10. There was no occasion during the period Marina resided with me in +the Fall of 1963, of which I was aware or now recollect, that Marina +rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of +conveyance with Lee Oswald at the wheel. Neither the Irving Sports Shop +nor Mrs. Whitworth nor Dyal Ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by +either of the Oswalds. + +11. I never drove Lee Oswald, with or without Marina, to any area or +place in or about either Dallas, Fort Worth, or Irving, Texas, to +enable Lee Oswald to engage in rifle practice. I did not know until the +afternoon of November 22, 1963, that he possessed or owned a firearm +of any kind or character. At no time prior to November 25, 1963, did I +know or had I heard of anybody by the name of Dyal Ryder. + +12. Lee Oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge +was not in Irving, Texas, at any time on November 6 or 7, 1963. My +recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as November +8, 1963, Marina and her two children, June and Rachel, were present +in my home day and night. Lee Oswald arrived at my home from Dallas, +Texas, between 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on November 8, 1963, for his +customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to +extend over through Armistice Day, November 11, 1963. Except for the +trip to Dallas, Texas, on November 9, 1963, which I have described +above, Lee Oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, +the late afternoon of November 8, 1963, until he departed for Dallas, +Texas, in the early morning of November 12, 1963. + +13. I was not present in my home for part of the day on November 11, +1963. As I testified, I made a trip that day, which was Armistice +Day and a holiday, to Dallas, Texas. I was gone from approximately +9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Not wishing to burden Lee and Marina with my +children, I had them stay at my neighbors the Craigs. Marina and Lee +Oswald and their children were in my home when I left and were there +when I returned. Based upon my conversation with Marina and Lee Oswald, +and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion +that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from Dallas. + +14. There was one occasion in addition to the occasion of Nov. 9, 1963, +which I have described above, that I drove Marina and Lee in my station +wagon to Dallas, Texas. On Monday, October 14, which was the day before +Lee Oswald obtained a position at the Texas School Book Depository, +I drove him to Dallas, Texas. We were accompanied by Marina and her +child June as well as by my children. I testified about this event. We +left Lee Oswald off in Dallas at Ross Avenue near LaMarr. I then took +my typewriter to a shop in Dallas for repair and Marina and I and our +children returned to Irving, Texas. + +Signed this 24th day of June 1964. + + (S) Ruth Hyde Paine, + RUTH HYDE PAINE. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF M. WALDO GEORGE + +The following affidavit was executed by M. Waldo George on June 12, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +M. Waldo George, 6769 Inverness Street, Dallas, being duly sworn says: + +1. I am the office manager of Tucker Manning Insurance Company. I +am the owner of the premises at 214 Neeley Street, Dallas, Texas, +consisting of two apartments, one upper and one lower. In the latter +part of January 1963 the upper apartment became vacant and I posted it +"For Rent" by means of an appropriate sign in the yard in front of the +premises. + +2. On March 2, 1963, I was advised by Mrs. George that an individual by +the name of "Oswald" had inquired about renting the apartment. Later +that day I met the individual who identified himself as Lee H. Oswald. +I advised him that the rent for the apartment was $60 per month, and he +rented the apartment on a month-to-month basis, paying me $60 in cash +for one month's rent in advance. + +3. On April 1, 1963, I collected $60 in cash from Oswald, covering rent +for the month of April 1963 to and including May 2, 1963. + +4. Shortly after this occasion the downstairs tenants, Mr. and Mrs. +George B. Gray, called me and informed me that the man in the upstairs +apartment was beating his wife. I made no inquiry into this subject +matter. + +5. Two or three days later, myself and Mrs. George called on the +Oswalds in their apartment and invited them to attend Gaston Avenue +Baptist Church with us. He informed me and Mrs. George that he attended +the Russian Orthodox Church although they were not regular in their +attendance, because they had to depend on their friends to take them. + +6. During this visit Oswald stated that he had met his wife while he +was serving in the United States Marines as a guard at the United +States Embassy in Russia, and had married his wife in Russia. I made +direct inquiry of him as to whether he had had any difficulty in +getting out of Russia with his wife and he said that he had had no +difficulty whatsoever. + +7. Neither myself or Mrs. George saw Oswald again at any time +thereafter. Oswald did not pay rent for the succeeding rental period +of May 2 through June 2, 1963. Because my attention was diverted by +other matters, I did not go by the apartment to collect the rent for +that period until several days after May 2, 1963. When I arrived at the +apartment I found it vacant. + +Signed this 12th day of June 1964 at Dallas Texas. + + (S) M. Waldo George, + M. WALDO GEORGE. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM KIRK STUCKEY + +The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June +6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. +Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to +give? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Be seated. State your full name? + +Mr. STUCKEY. William Kirk Stuckey. + +Mr. JENNER. I regret, Mr. Stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you +to have you back to have your deposition taken again. But through some +happenstance in New Orleans, the transcript of your deposition never +went beyond the U.S. attorney's office apparently, and we appreciate +your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that I can +depose you again. When I took your deposition before you had received a +letter from Mr. Rankin, had you not? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I guess I called you when I was down there, didn't I? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And I explained to you at that time, the time before when +I took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the +Commission was authorized and the Executive order of the President +creating the Commission and the rules and regulations of the Commission +on the taking of depositions? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I understand that. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. In effect, we want to inquire of you in +particular with respect to the course of events in which you +interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans in 1963 at +some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that +is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had +some fairly extended acquaintance with Oswald in a professional sense. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Would you like me to tell you from the very first? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think for the very first, for the purpose of the +record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and +your profession and business and associations. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. At present I am employed at Tulane University as +a special writer. In this capacity I write a syndicated column on +higher education which Tulane distributes to 85 newspapers throughout +the country. In August 1963 I was a broadcaster with WDSU Radio, New +Orleans. This is the NBC station. I had a weekly 5-minute radio +program on economic and political developments in Latin America. I had +been in this particular specialty for about 2 years previous. Prior to +that I was a columnist with New Orleans States Item, with an interest +in Latin America. As a result I had been looking for a long time for +representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in that area. + +Mr. JENNER. If you would excuse me a second, would you give me your +formal education because, as I recall in taking your deposition in New +Orleans, you acquired some interest in South American relations which +led you into looking for something on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Formal education was a B.S. degree in journalism +from Southern Methodist University in Dallas. After graduation I went +into the Marine Corps and completed 2 years of service, after which I +spent some 8 months in Central America and Mexico traveling around, +essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, +in which I acquired a good deal of Spanish and an interest in the +countries. + +Mr. JENNER. What is a third-class bus? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they +are in there with you. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. STUCKEY. After I returned I went into the newspaper business. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, how old are you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Thirty-two. + +Mr. JENNER. You are married? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family and you live in New Orleans? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your address? + +Mr. STUCKEY. 2317 State Street, and I have two children. I went into +the newspaper business after returning from Latin America, working +largely as a political reporter for a number of years. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you giving attention to any particular phase of +politics? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Local government? + +Mr. JENNER. Thinking of it in the higher sense--local government. + +Mr. STUCKEY. You mean in a higher sense, in a subject category? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I was interested particularly in planning and zoning. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you acquire also an interest in South American +relations? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; well, I had this interest, but I had no opportunity +to exercise this interest in my work until the New Orleans States +Item made me a columnist. This was in February 1962 when I started my +column, and this extended on until April, I believe it was, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the title of that column? + +Mr. STUCKEY. New Orleans and the Americas. That was really my first +professional involvement in Latin American affairs. After I left the +paper, doing public relations, I acquired this radio program, this +radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. It was largely to keep +my name in front of the public in this capacity. And---- + +Mr. JENNER. That was a broadcast program? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was put on regularly, was it? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Once a week. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the NBC station down there? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Radio and television or just radio? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Radio. + +Mr. JENNER. That program had a title? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Latin Listening Post. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general the character of that program and to +what you were directing your attention. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Politics and economics. I inquired a bit about the Cuban +situation. I had a number of programs that I think you would classify +as news features. They didn't particularly have current events value, +but they were interesting topics, and I just went and talked about +them. I talked about social welfare programs in Uruguay, the Mexican +Revolution; Central American common market; the character of the Latin +American university student, this sort of thing. + +Occasionally, when I had a live one, when I heard there was somebody +in town who was a Latin bigwig, I would bring him on and we would talk +whatever he wanted to talk about. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you organize those programs? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any preliminary discussions with the people +you were going to have on your programs? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; sometimes I took up to 3 to 4 days to prepare a +5-minute broadcast. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Actually it is 5 minutes which demands about 700 words, +which was just about as long or longer than the column that I used to +write, so these columns, 700 words, which would run about a column and +a half of type in the paper, consumed within a 5-minute period on the +broadcast. Anything else along that line? + +Mr. JENNER. I think that covers it generally. Tell us the nature of +your work with Tulane University. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You became associated with Tulane when? + +Mr. STUCKEY. In January, January 6. + +Mr. JENNER. Of this year? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that work? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I write a syndicated column on higher education. The +column is called Dimension in Education. We deal with all manner of +events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things +that do not affect higher education. I roam the spectrum of interest in +the things. It is extremely interesting. + +I sometimes write about such things as the Common Market, the +humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current +controversies we get into. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in the nature of public relations work? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; very soft shell public relations. Sometimes we don't +even mention Tulane. It is just that I think probably Tulane just wants +to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and +that is why they print these reports. + +Mr. JENNER. During the year 1963, did an event occur, a series of +events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In your own words, taking it from the very first instant of +the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in +your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way +you would put it out, about it. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. As I told you before, as a Latin American columnist +and one interested in affairs, I had been looking for some time in New +Orleans for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. There +haven't been any. Most of the organizations that I had contact with in +my work---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--how did you learn about the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to get to that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Most of the organizations that I had contact with were +refugee organizations, very violently anti-Castro groups, and there +were a number of them in New Orleans. These people were news sources +for me also. I used them quite frequently. One day, I think it was +in August, the latter part of July of 1963, I was in the bank, and I +ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of Carlos Bringuier. +Bringuier told me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--identify Mr. Bringuier. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Mr. Bringuier at that time was the New Orleans delegate to +the Revolutionary Student Directorate which was an anti-Castro group +with headquarters in Miami. He also ran a clothing store called Casa +Roca. He was an attorney in Havana before the Revolution, the Cuban +Revolution of 1958, and had been very active ever since I had known +him in New Orleans in anti-Castro activity. I had interviewed him on +a number of occasions in connection with Cuban current events. Mr. +Bringuier ran into me in the bank, and I spoke to him and he said that +a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had appeared in +New Orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before. + +Mr. JENNER. That interested you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, very much, very much, because I knew something of the +reputation of this group. I regarded them as being about the leading +pro-Castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the +Castro forces, and I had done a considerable amount of reading of +congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their +activities. Mr. Bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man +who was representing the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--you had known Bringuier and you had had contact +with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you +speak of? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had never been on my program, but, as a +newspaperman, I had contacted him quite frequently for information. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that--this is in the bank--a few days before, I +don't recall exactly---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was a chance meeting? + +Mr. STUCKEY. This was a chance meeting with Mr. Bringuier. I was +cashing my paycheck and Bringuier told me a few days before he had +run into this fellow in his store, this Casa Roca--this young man had +approached him. + +Mr. JENNER. A young man had come in? + +Mr. STUCKEY. A young man. At the time he had mentioned no name. If he +had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant +nothing. + +He said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a +veteran of the Marine Corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was +very disturbed by this Cuban situation and he wanted to do something +about hurting Castro, or trying to change the regime. He, in some +way---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man +had said to Mr. Bringuier? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Had said to Mr. Bringuier as Bringuier recounted it to me +later. I am telling you Bringuier's story now. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wanted to make clear that you were. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Now, this young man said somehow he knew Bringuier +was connected with the Revolutionary Student Directorate, how, I don't +know. But, at any rate, as I said, he offered his services. + +Then he presented a Marine Corps Handbook to Bringuier. He said, "This +might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. This is my +own personal Marine Corps Handbook", which Bringuier accepted. That +was the gist of the conversation. Bringuier told me that sometime +after that, I don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking +on Canal Street, the main street of New Orleans, about a block away +from his store, and he ran into this young man again. This time he was +distributing literature, handbills, and the handbills said, "Hands +Off Cuba", and on the handbill it said, "Join the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee in New Orleans, Charter Member Branch". + +It was this same young man. Bringuier, who was a rather excitable +fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing +pro-Castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an +anti-Castro man. So Bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the +street corner, and I think some blows were exchanged, I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Bringuier is again telling you this? + +Mr. STUCKEY. This is what Bringuier is telling me, because I did not +witness this. At any rate, regardless of what happened, I don't know +the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took +everybody down to the jail. Oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, +and I think later fined $10, and let go. Well, this is what Bringuier +told me in the bank. + +Mr. JENNER. I may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in +the newspapers on this subject? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; I hadn't. There wouldn't have been anything in the +newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did +not exist. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. STUCKEY. So I mentioned to Bringuier that I was interested in +locating this fellow and talking to him. Bringuier gave me his name. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that this was the early part of August? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Or the latter part of July, I am not really sure. It +wasn't--I would say probably the early part of August. It was a Friday. +I can tell you that. + +Mr. JENNER. It was August 9, 1963. + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is quite possible. So I inquired as to the name and +the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and Bringuier said +his name was Lee Oswald, and he lived on Magazine Street, somewhere in +the 4000 block, I forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. +This was a Friday. My program is on a Saturday. + +I decided that early the next morning I would go by this address +and ask Oswald if he would appear on my program. So very early, it +was about 8 o'clock the following--wait a minute, I am losing some +chronology. This was not the next Saturday. Then some time elapsed, +and, at any rate, it was August 17 when I went by his house. I forget +now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he again distributed handbills? + +Mr. STUCKEY. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of +course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not +carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at +all. + +I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house +on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early +in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get +him before he left. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a Saturday? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young +fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue +trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald?" And he said "Yes." + +I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my +program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened +porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for +some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had +better talk on the porch. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find +it easily? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house--or the +entrance was on the side. + +Mr. JENNER. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side +of the property, but it was offset, to the rear. + +Mr. JENNER. Frame house? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the +organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and it identified him as +the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that president or secretary? + +Mr. STUCKEY. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card, as I +recall, as the secretary. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a +handwritten--it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name +"Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand +corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this name familiar to you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, +that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred +to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the +assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, +I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago +mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the +rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light +bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have +remembered the name. + +Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were +several--I will mention them if you would like. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would. + +Mr. STUCKEY. There were two speeches by Fidel Castro. One was "The +Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought." Another was +"Bureaucracy and Sectarianism." There was a pamphlet by Jean Paul +Sartre, and this pamphlet was called "Ideology and Revolution." + +There was a pamphlet called "The Crime Against Cuba," by Corliss +Lamont. I believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that +time. I got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, Mr. Jenner. +I promised you that pamphlet the last time I saw you, and I couldn't +find it, but I have since found it, and I brought it up for you. I will +give it to you now before I forget. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will show you what is marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 +and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed +him on Saturday, August 17? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Almost exactly. He was dressed almost in exactly the same +way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf +notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for +literature. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you a series of exhibits, Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A, +453-B, and 453-C. Would you examine those and tell me whether your +friend, Mr. Bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs? + +Mr. STUCKEY. He is not there. + +Mr. JENNER. You were referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A; he is not on +that one? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is of Oswald alone. + +Mr. JENNER. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is a picture of Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Pizzo Exhibit 453-B is also Oswald, but Bringuier is +not in the picture. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. We will mark the pamphlet you have brought with +you, which is entitled "The Cuban 'Episode' and the American Press: +April 9-23, 1961" as Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. + +(The pamphlet was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Handing you Stuckey Exhibit No. 1, being a 15-page +pamphlet--I guess it is 16 including the back cover--is that one of the +pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on August 17 and +Saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is not one. I received this pamphlet that night +when he showed up at the radio station. + +Mr. JENNER. We will go into it later on, but I think for purposes of +identification, was it a pamphlet that he gave you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he gave it to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Immediately prior to that. Incidentally, I requested all +the literature that he had. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morning +which were the four or five pieces I have already described. Then at +night he says, "Look, I found this also", and he brought this. + +Mr. JENNER. Meaning Stuckey Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. All right, we +had you still on Saturday morning talking with him at his home on +Magazine Street. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Right. We discussed literature, his literature, the pieces +of information I have already described. He showed me the Fair Play +for Cuba Committee membership card. I asked him about the membership +of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few +members. The figure 12 or 13 sticks in my head. I don't really recall +why now. There were that many officers or something like that, 12 or +13 people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, +something like that, although I guess I shouldn't mention it until I +have a more coherent idea of why he used that. + +Mr. JENNER. Just give your best recollection of what he said on that +occasion. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Also as I recall, he was very vehement, insisting +he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the +occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the +secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, Hidell, was the +president. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you in any special way that he was +apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of +president? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. It +seemed logical. He appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, +and the only strange thing about him was his organization. This was, +seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type--or he should +associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type +at all, or at least what I have in my mind as the type. + +I would like to mention this. I was arrested by his cleancutness. I +didn't expect this at all. I expected a folk-singer type, something of +that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said--I found this +fellow, instead I found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched +himself pretty well. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean he watched his---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. He seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all +of his movements, sort of very deliberate. He was very deliberate with +his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. He was the type of +person you would say would inspire confidence. This was the incongruity +that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this +organization. That is the gist of the first meeting. + +I asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about 5 +o'clock for the interview, and he agreed. + +Mr. JENNER. This was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the +broadcast. + +Mr. JENNER. Why would you do that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. To avoid the possibility of errors. It is a risky business +going on live. You know, you never know when you are going to slip up +and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative +of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee you want to know what you have in +hand before you put it on. + +During that day I thought quite a bit about Oswald before he arrived +at the station for the interview, and I was interested in his +articulateness and in discussing this organization, so I had decided +during the day that instead of just interviewing him for 5 minutes, +which was the length of my program, that I would just let him talk as +long as he wanted to. + +Mr. JENNER. In the private interview with you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; but record it. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. And then I thought after doing that I could take some +excerpts out for a 5-minute program, and then ask the management at the +station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto +as a demonstration of the line of this organization. So this was the +decision I made before the broadcast. + +I drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then I met him that +afternoon about 5 o'clock at the studios of WDSU, 520 Royal Street, New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in the French Quarter, is it not? + +Mr. STUCKEY. In the French Quarter. He was dressed exactly as he is +shown in this picture. + +Mr. JENNER. Garner Exhibit No. 1. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Which is Exhibit No. 1, short-sleeved dress shirt with +a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. There were no +preliminary remarks particularly. We just went immediately into the +studio. It was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet. + +Mr. JENNER. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. And we were seated--this conversation +was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in WDSU by the name of Al +Campin. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that prearranged? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well, you have to have an engineer to record it. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He just happened to be there operating the equipment, but +he was, I mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested +in it, because like me he hadn't run across too many of these birds, +and we were curious to see how they thought and why. + +So at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which +lasted 37 minutes, covered a wide range of subjects. + +Naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with Cuba. We discussed the +problem of the refugees leaving Cuba, we discussed as to whether or not +Castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he +was merely the head of a colony which was the line that I took. + +Mr. JENNER. Head of a colony? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; a Russian colony, Cuba. This was the line that I took +in this questioning. + +We discussed the economic situation in Cuba, as to what had happened +to the economy since Castro took over. We discussed a few abstracts. I +asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a transcript of that interview? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you brought one with you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Incidentally, I have a letter here that you may or may +not be interested in. Father Clancy is the chairman of the political +science department at Loyola University in New Orleans. I sent him this +transcript as a Catholic and as a political science man just to see +what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than I ever did after +reading that, but the last paragraph, I thought, was interesting, and I +thought you might be interested in reading the letter. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness has furnished me a 13-page document on +light-weight, green-tinted paper. The first page is entitled +"Transcript of Taped Interview Between William K. Stuckey and Lee +Harvey Oswald, August 17, 1963," and the last page of which, the last +three lines of which, read: + +"STUCKEY: Tonight we have been talking with Lee H. Oswald, secretary of +The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans," et cetera. "(Standard +close.)" + +I wonder if you would be good enough, Mr. Stuckey, to initial each of +these 13 pages. We will mark this as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. I suggest +you put your initials at the bottom. + +(The document was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each +of the 13 pages of the transcript. + +When and how was this document prepared, Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I typed it. + +Mr. JENNER. You typed it as you were listening to your tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have also brought with you the actual original tape of +this interview? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the radio tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And this 13-page document is a literal transcription or +translation of that tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small +errors, largely typographical errors. + +Mr. JENNER. Prepared by you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the 13-page document, and if there are +any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like +to draw to our attention, I wish you would do it. You were going to +look through it and see if there were---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. I can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, +and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which I +abbreviated by saying "standard close." All that was, was I would have +been talking with Lee Harvey Oswald--"This is Bill Stuckey, Latin +Listening Post. Good night"--that is all that was, no facts at all. + +Mr. JENNER. The words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of +page 13 is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" +that he gave. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Are you interested in it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. This is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not +just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, +any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what +he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your +question. He was expert in dialectics. + +"STUCKEY: What's your definition of democracy?" + +Mr. JENNER. You are reading from Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 now? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +"OSWALD: My definition--well, the definition of democracy--that's a +very good one. That's a very controversial viewpoint. You know, it used +to be very clear, but now it is not. You know, when our forefathers +drew up the Constitution they considered that democracy was creating an +atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; +these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and +pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, +none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right +to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for +yourself without government restrictions such countries as Cuba, and we +are restricted from going to Cuba." + +The question was, "What is your definition of democracy?", and we +discussed the passport ban as part of the definition. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, he did not respond to your question? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; except obliquely to make the point. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you find that he did that--it will appear, of course, +in that transcript---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. Constantly throughout the interview. + +Mr. JENNER. In your discussions with him he parried your questions by +not answering them. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He would--his general attack would be "I am glad you +asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to +talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your +questions on occasions. So there were at least half a dozen examples of +that. + +Mr. JENNER. In the transcript which you have furnished? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else +prior to your bringing Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 today? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom? + +Mr. STUCKEY. To the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were interviewed by the FBI you supplied the FBI +with a transcript? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact I gave the tape to the FBI the +Monday following the interview, which would have been August 20, 1963. +I told them I thought it was very interesting, and if they would like +to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. They made a +copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the +tape to me. + +Mr. JENNER. But Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 is the one that you prepared? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And not one that the FBI prepared. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +This was on Saturday afternoon. Were you scheduled to go on the air +that evening? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; my broadcast time is 7:30. I met him about 5, about +two and a half hours in advance. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would +be a discourse only between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the way it developed? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is the way it developed. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that broadcast? I should say to you +we have from--what is the radio station? + +Mr. STUCKEY. WDSU. + +Mr. JENNER. From WDSU we have obtained a copy of that tape. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Now, you mean of this tape? + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Because I don't think they have a copy of that tape. + +Mr. JENNER. No; the broadcast that evening I am talking about. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Is that right? They located it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Because I tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it +off the market and never did locate it. I couldn't find it. This must +be a recent development. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; but despite that would you tell us about that +broadcast? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +As I said, this was a 37-minute, rambling interview between Oswald and +myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear +it. He was satisfied. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, you played back the tape of which Exhibit No. 2 is +a transcript? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct; Oswald was satisfied. I think he thought he had +scored quite a coup. + +Then I went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help +excerpted a couple of the remarks by Oswald in this. I forget now +what the excerpts were. It has been so long ago. I think we had his +definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we +had a couple of his comments in which he said Castro was a free and +independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, +as I recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points +of the 37-minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night. + +Mr. JENNER. You had watered it down in length to how many minutes? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Five minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Five minutes? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Actually 4-1/2. + +Mr. JENNER. So you took the portions of your 37-minute interview, +which we now have a transcript of, which is Exhibit No. 2, and boiled +that down to 4-1/2 minutes? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was a radio broadcast? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That evening. All right. Was that your last contact with +Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Following the broadcast did you have any further +conversation with him, that evening? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; no. The only thing that did transpire was +I told him that I was going to talk to the news director to see if +the news director was interested in running the entire 37-minute tape +later, and I told him to get in touch with me, Oswald to get in touch +with me Monday, and I would let him know what the news director said, +and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his +way. + +I did just that the next Monday, I called the news director and +asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. I asked him if +he was interested in running it. I told him I thought it was pretty +interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be +more spectacular a little bit--there would be more public interest if +we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, +a debate panel show, with some local anti-Communists on there to refute +some of his arguments, which I did. Which I did--I arranged a debate +show for a regular radio feature that WDSU has called "Conversation +Carte Blanche." This is a 25-minute public affairs program that runs +daily. It is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or +this sort of thing. + +I was in charge of arranging the panel, so I picked Mr. Edward S. +Butler. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us who he is. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He is the Executive Director of the Information Council of +the Americas in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that organization? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It is an anti-Communist propaganda organization. Their +principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with Cuban +refugees or refugees from Iron Curtain countries, and distribute these +tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are +very strongly anti-Communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio +stations throughout Latin America. As I recall, they came to have over +100 stations using these tapes regularly. + +Well, Mr. Butler is a friend of mine. I knew him as a columnist, and it +just seemed like---- + +Mr. JENNER. He was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to +which he directs his attention? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; so I asked him to be one of the panelists on the +show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, I let him hear the +37-minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist I asked Mr. +Bringuier, Mr. Carlos Bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as being +the man who led me to Oswald--I asked him to appear on the show to give +it a little Cuban flavor. + +And then Oswald called me after it was arranged, and I told him we were +going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, +yes, indeed, and then he said, "How many of you am I going to have to +fight?" That was his version of saying how many are on the panel. + +Mr. JENNER. He said this to you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; in a jocular way. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did this take place, on the telephone? + +Mr. STUCKEY. On the telephone; yes. + +This was Monday or Tuesday, the 19th or the 20th of August, whenever it +was that I had informed him of the show. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he called you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I gave him my office number so he called me at a +prearranged time. He was very punctual, very punctual. He was always +there on time, all those calls came on time. So I informed him about +this debate show and he agreed. He said he thought that would be +interesting. + +Then the next time I see him is on the afternoon of August 21, +Wednesday. I believe this was about 5:30. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this to be a preliminary session also? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes--well, no; this was to be a live program. The +Conversation Carte Blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the +other one was. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I was just talking about your +meeting with him on Wednesday afternoon, the 21st, at 5:30. The program +went on at what time? + +Mr. STUCKEY. At 6:05. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. It was not long before the program. + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, +which is transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; there were some comments of which I will tell you +later. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to add this, this is very interesting, +and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. During that day, +Wednesday, August 21, one of my news sources called me up and said, "I +hear you are going to have Oswald on Carte Blanche." I said, "Yes, that +is right." He said, "We have some information about Mr. Oswald, the +fact that he lived in Russia for 3 years." + +He had omitted reference to this in the 37-minute previous interview, +and in all of our conversations. + +Mr. JENNER. He had never mentioned that subject prior to that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. As a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background +in here. + +Mr. JENNER. In Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Right; in which he completely omits this. Would you like +me to read it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you have turned to a particular page? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I will be reading from this. Here is my question. + +"STUCKEY:"---- + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can identify the page. + +Mr. STUCKEY. This will be page 11. + +Mr. JENNER. Page 11 of Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. + +Mr. STUCKEY. My question was: + +"Mr. Oswald, I am curious about your personal background. If you could +tell something about where you came from, your education and your +career to date, it would be interesting. + +"OSWALD:"--this is his reply--"I would be very happy to. I was born in +New Orleans in 1939. For a short length of time during my childhood +I lived in Texas and New York. During my junior high school days I +attended Beauregard Junior High School. I attended that school for 2 +years. Then I went to Warren Eastern High School, and I attended that +school for over a year. Then my family and I moved to Texas where we +have many relatives, and I continued my schooling there. I entered +the United States Marine Corps in 1956. I spent 3 years in the United +States Marine Corps working my way up through the ranks to the position +of buck sergeant, and I served honorably having been discharged. Then +I went back to work in Texas and have recently arrived in New Orleans +with my family, with my wife and my child." + +There is his answer. He omits the 3 years in Russia by saying that, +referring to the fact that, after leaving the Marine Corps he says he +went to Texas and then to New Orleans. You will note in there he lied +about his rank he achieved in the Marine Corps. Why, I don't know. As +far as I know he was just a Pfc. + +Mr. JENNER. He never rose any higher. + +Mr. STUCKEY. And, as I recall, he did not go to Warren Eastern High +School over a year. + +Mr. JENNER. You have become aware he attended Beauregard only 1 year +rather than 2? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That he attended Warren Eastern about 6 weeks or 2 months. + +Mr. STUCKEY. That was my impression. I mention this because with this +in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that +day, August 21, that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in +Russia for 3 years, and had just recently returned, and this individual +who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of Washington +newspaper clippings that I could check, which were stories about his +leaving for Russia, or rather his appearance in Moscow in 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this information came to you between the time of your +interview transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 and the 21st of August +when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion +program? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you +to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was he unaware when he came in at 5:30 on the afternoon +of Wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and +had done some research? + +Mr. STUCKEY. He was unaware of that fact. During that day Mr. Butler +called, after I had already been tipped off about his Russian +residence, Mr. Butler called and said he too had found out the same +thing, I think later; his source apparently was the House Un-American +Activities Committee or something like that. + +At any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed +together to produce this information on the program that night. + +Mr. JENNER. You were going to face him on the program with this? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Unawareness. + +Mr. JENNER. You thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. And we decided it would be me who would do it as the +introducing participant. + +So at about 5:30 that afternoon I arrived at the studio alone. Oswald +appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is August +in New Orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy +gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot +and uncomfortable. He had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black +looseleaf notebook. + +Mr. JENNER. The same one he had had before? + +Mr. STUCKEY. As far as I know. We shook hands, passed a few +pleasantries, nothing much of importance. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the others present? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; they arrived a little bit later. Oswald was there +first, as usual on time, and then Mr. Butler came in with Mr. +Bringuier. Both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature +with them, and statistics. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Bringuier and Oswald recognize each other? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was apparent to you they were acquainted? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes; indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Oswald was acquainted with Bringuier and vice +versa? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Oswald met Mr. Butler before? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know if he had or not. It was my impression that +he had not, but I think he knew who he was. Oswald asked me something +about the organization, and I told him, I said, "Well, it is just like +your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of +the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity. + +I think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightist +organization, "You can't reason with those people," that approach. + +So it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between Bringuier and Oswald +in the studio. Bringuier, as well as I recall, started out with a +remark like this, saying, "You know, I thought you were a very nice +boy. You really made a good impression on me when I first met you." +Referring to Oswald's visit to Bringuier in the store when Oswald was +posing as an anti-Castro enthusiast, and Bringuier said, "I cannot +understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group." + +He said, "I don't think you know what you are doing." + +Oswald said something to the effect that, "I don't think you know +what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. Bringuier said, +"Anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there +is a place for you," and he says, "I hope one day you will see the +light." + +And again Oswald says, "I hope you see the light," and that was about +all there was to that. + +Butler didn't say anything to him particularly. It was just +pleasantries, "How do you do," and such. + +Mr. JENNER. How old a man is Butler? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Butler is in his late twenties, he is 29 or 30. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he an educated man? + +Mr. STUCKEY. College, as far as I know. He is advertising, public +relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was +about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast. + +Then I left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room +from the room where we were sitting, to get Bill Slatter, who is the +official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our +participants and went into the broadcast room. + +As I recall, in opening the show Bill Slatter said that myself and +he would be talking to three other people. In other words, I was not +considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three +panel people. This was the way it was explained, and Slatter turned the +program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of +Oswald and a brief capsule of his background in New Orleans to date, +and then he turned the show over to me, and I gave a several-minute +description of the organization, Mr. Oswald and his activities in New +Orleans up to that time, and then I pulled the Russian thing on him. + +I did mention--I think I did it this way, I said: + +"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his +background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted +some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that +that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his +residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and +Oswald said, "Yes." + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey +Exhibit No. 3. + +(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.) + +Mr. STUCKEY. You may be interested in knowing that the Information +Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a +record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago, +called "Self-Portrait in Red." + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it +needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes +of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages +bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here +as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages +are numbered at the top 1 through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a +transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about +which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963. + +We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape +itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you +will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a +transcript of your program that night? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it +is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations, +his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account +of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald. +They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was +using the "er's," but they didn't put those in. + +Mr. JENNER. I will say it is a transcript--your attention is drawn +to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the +hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, +are not. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Are not. + +Mr. JENNER. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the +actual tape. + +Mr. STUCKEY. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will +appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an +opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of +this program. + +What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about +this dissertation? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that +program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing +was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a +Communist--we were always doing this--he was very clever about avoiding +the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no +other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee." + +So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, +and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes." + +Otherwise, it was--the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and +Butler, and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much +as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism +and Marxism and then the distinctions? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The distinctions between them? + +Mr. STUCKEY. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr. +Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a +Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It +is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great +Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of +the answer. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or +fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, +socialism, as the case might be? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an impression that his knowledge--that he +was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge +as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher +pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was +acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and +such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism. + +Mr. JENNER. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not +one that you have formed since. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my +time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had +run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. +But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning +because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions +whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would +hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know +that much about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of his demeanor. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Confident. + +Mr. JENNER. Confident, self-assured? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Self-assured, logical. + +Mr. JENNER. Able to handle questions? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There +was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little +stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic +manner. If he could use a six-syllable word---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean demeanor? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead +of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in +itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression he searched for the +multisyllable word? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know +why--of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would +be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when +he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," +this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was +sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had--as if he were a +young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal +terminology dealing with constitutional rights. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this discussion become heated? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in +particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him +up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and +of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr. +Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished +him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future +there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee +with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an +admitted Marxist. + +The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact +that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely +believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite +a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. +We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer +possible. + +Mr. JENNER. The broadcast ran approximately how long? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Twenty-five minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your +contacts with Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a +little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and +he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called +Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was +the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal +position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I +ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's +conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a +little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky +cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and +they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like +me to tell you about the conversation? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would. + +Mr. STUCKEY. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed, +as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion +to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little +conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading +at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading +everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about +Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an +opportunist who was using the Communists. + +We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good +with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. +He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka +drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," +and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the +father of his wife Marina, was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned +that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald +was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about +80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the +Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could +afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to +drink vodka. May I refresh my memory---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. With some notes? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you +cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Not by name. He only referred to her as "my wife." + +Mr. JENNER. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this +business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian +girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it +because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to +keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any family? + +Mr. STUCKEY. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast +on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief +digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and +then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans +with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did +have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the +first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. At his home. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to +a commercial photographer in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. You made no check on that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; I didn't check him out. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that +he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer. + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; I was not aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you where he was working? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that +time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. He was out of work at that time, but he had been. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of +photography. Had he been involved in photography? + +Mr. JENNER. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans +in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company, +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company +that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and +that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited +experience. + +Mr. STUCKEY. That apparently is what he was referring to. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Here is some additional information if you would like me +to bring this out. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; go ahead. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the +21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that +time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are +many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he, +if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and +he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are +pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his mother? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred +to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my +impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles +and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a +number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it +wasn't true, later. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I see. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret is--Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother--that +was her sister. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at +the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide +that Marxism was the answer was his service in Japan. He said living +conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the +system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in +Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how +a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society. + +Mr. JENNER. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that +the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether it was---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the +aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he +said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same +sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was +a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your +expression is. + +Mr. JENNER. Goldbricking. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice +salaries. + +Mr. JENNER. Nepotism. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority +at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges +that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures +and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United +States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't +curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In +hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him. + +Mr. JENNER. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was +there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the +newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a +discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. +He produced a card showing this. + +Mr. JENNER. When had he done that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why +he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I +recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had +one exactly like it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with +him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the +broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily +answered. + +Mr. JENNER. He does respond--you say, and I am now turning to the +document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that +radio debate--in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact +that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper +clippings--you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading, +"Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 +and become a Soviet citizen. + +"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned +from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there +3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is +correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date +that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That +was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that +correct? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast +you did not pursue these subjects? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another +observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland, +homogenized. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he elaborate on that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I thought it was interesting. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He said that nobody--everybody seems to be almost alike in +Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting +elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of +population as a result. + +Mr. JENNER. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect +of Russian society that disappointed him? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know. I don't recall him expressing an opinion +as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone +was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my +impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they +wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. He did? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of +organization that Russian society would just suppress. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian society? + +Mr. STUCKEY. The Russian authorities would suppress. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of +this character. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is +militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society +and Russian politics? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense +of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of +the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as +distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia? + +Mr. STUCKEY. He didn't add anything other than what I have already +said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you +know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably +would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment +with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was +then exercising? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact +that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly +referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical +references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you +said, for about an hour? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Approximately an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he comfortable in the sense--was he eager, was he +pleased---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved +it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have +to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had +been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. +There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He +seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he +told me that night was not true. I think it was true. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with +respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday +interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday +night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his +attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had +been in Russia and had attempted to defect? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in +his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar, +so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always +guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on +August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it guarded in Comeaux's? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. This was much more relaxed? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Considerably. + +Mr. JENNER. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an +hour, did you ever see Oswald after that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That was the last time I ever saw him. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard of Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. On November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? + +Mr. STUCKEY. The assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. JENNER. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they +had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the +assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the +ground practically; I was surprised. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a video tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter, +the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night +on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of +the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. And they +interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I +understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, +and the rest of it they threw away. + +Mr. JENNER. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not +throw away, the video tape. + +Mr. STUCKEY. They are not throwing away anything at that station any +more, by the way, now. + +Mr. JENNER. I suppose not. Without speculation on your part, if you +have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left +handed? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the +opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I +never saw him writing. + +Mr. JENNER. At least you never noticed it one way or the other? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my--of +the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that +took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of +person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a +world of intellectual inferiors. + +Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, +please? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we +had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, +nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with +somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression +he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather +cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had--his +philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most +people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or +educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance +in his manner. There was just--well, you can spot intelligence, or +at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who +was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an +opportunity to express his intelligence--that was my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to +his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick +to anger? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, +he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier +and Butler on the show. + +Mr. JENNER. Or that evening. + +Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt +to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was +presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just +more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people +might have gotten a little mad. After all, you have to recognize that +Oswald--they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around +there. There were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only +one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of +environment indicates discipline. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. +Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a mark or something over his head? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a +vertical arrow, over that man's head. Do you recognize that person? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is +another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over +his head. Do you recognize him? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above +his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do +you, by any chance, recognize him? + +Mr. STUCKEY. This one? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. STUCKEY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the general question do you recognize +anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald +on that picture? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he has the green mark above his head. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that +photograph, is it not? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the group of men on that +photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group, +do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; I recognize nobody. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do +you recognize any of them? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely +familiar, but--no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart +Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number on +it---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the +letter-writing proceedings? + +Mr. JENNER. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and +give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want +to look to see---- + +Mr. STUCKEY. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into +a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own +personal record. + +Mr. JENNER. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You +mean a platter, a disc? + +Mr. STUCKEY. A platter, a disc. + +Mr. JENNER. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years +from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is +assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might +deteriorate. + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is true. + +Mr. JENNER. So I think we had better have the tape. + +Mr. STUCKEY. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time +you played them, and also they get scratched and such. But one thing +is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind +of nightmares you have with a tape. I was afraid to have a copy made +of that thing for a long time just out of fear somebody might make a +mistake and it would be erased. + +Mr. JENNER. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the +37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of +August? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own +use. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you made it? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it it was made for you by somebody? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. From what source was the tape made by the commercial +company you have named? + +Mr. STUCKEY. From---- + +Mr. JENNER. What was used to make the tape? Did you have a tape and you +made a copy of the tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; they took my original tape and from that they made the +disc. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. We are a little confused here. You have an audio +tape of the 37-minute interview, do you? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And you also have a wax disk? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. It is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the +original tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial +people you have named? + +Mr. STUCKEY. True. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am getting at, Mr. Stuckey, was an audio tape +transcript made of your interview with him on the 17th of August 1963? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who made the original tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. The original tape was made by WDSU radio in the studios of +WDSU, and the engineer doing the taping was Mr. Al Campin. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what happened to that original tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have it; it is in my possession. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you bring it with you today? + +Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is a copy which you have in your hand. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you bring a copy of that tape, which is Stuckey Exhibit +No. 4? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct? + +Mr. JENNER. From what source did you obtain the original tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. From WDSU. When the management of WDSU decided not to run +that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they +gave me the tape. + +Mr. JENNER. What is now marked as Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 is a +reproduction on tape of the original tape? + +Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Who made the reproduction which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Cosimo's Recording Studio. + +Mr. JENNER. Where are they located? Do you happen offhand to recall the +address? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It is on Governor Nichol's Street in the 500 block. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the full name of that company? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Cosimo's Recording Studio, I believe it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have had--how many do I have? I have two copies and +the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces +of, four items involved. + +Mr. JENNER. You will recall, Mr. Stuckey, that you were good enough +when I was in New Orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is +the name of it again? + +Mr. STUCKEY. WDSU. + +Mr. JENNER. WDSU, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing +a tape transcript of your 37-minute interview with Oswald on the 17th +of August 1963. Is the tape which I have in my hand, marked Stuckey +Exhibit No. 4, the tape that was played that evening in my presence? + +Mr. STUCKEY. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now as it was at the time I +heard it? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. It is in the same condition now as it was when it was +prepared by Cosimo's? + +Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Subject to my understanding with you that you will receive +a communication from Mr. Rankin respecting the preservation of this +tape against commercial use, I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 in evidence. +I am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question +in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive Mr. +Rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one +has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a +copy of it. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Very good. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I will state for the record, Mr. Reporter, that in +an off-the-record discussion with Mr. Stuckey respecting the audio tape +of the interview of August 17, 1963, Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Stuckey +has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, Exhibit No. 4 to +us upon his receipt of a communication from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for +the Commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part +of the record of the Commission, will not be subjected to use for any +commercial purpose and reproduction. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to ask for one qualification. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. I would like my attorney to read over the letter before---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of course. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest +possibly some changes---- + +Mr. JENNER. I think that is wise. Since I am returning the tape to you, +why, I am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied +that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that +this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to +you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not +concerned about preserving that. + +I think that is all. Is there anything that you would like to add, that +you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of +the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I think we have covered just about everything. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Certainly all the hard facts. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that? + +Mr. STUCKEY. I say certainly all the hard facts. The rest is just a lot +of speculation and such. + +Mr. JENNER. One other thing. Give Bringuier's physical description, +describe Bringuier physically to me, please. + +Mr. STUCKEY. Describe Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. No; Bringuier. + +Mr. STUCKEY. He is about 5 feet 10 inches. He is not particularly +dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. He has +the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather +slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. I can't think of a thing else. + +Mr. JENNER. OK. I guess that is about it. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HORACE ELROY TWIFORD + +The following affidavit was executed by Horace Elroy Twiford on July +11, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Harris, ss_: + +I, Horace Elroy Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly +sworn say: + +1. I have been a resident of Houston since May, 1956, and I am a +merchant seaman. I am a member of the Socialist Labor Party. + +2. The first time I ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald was in July 1963, +when The Headquarters of the Socialist Labor Party in New York wrote me +that Oswald had requested literature. The New York Headquarters usually +furnishes me with the names of any persons in the Texas area who make +inquiries about the Socialist Labor Party. I then routinely mailed +Oswald literature concerning the Socialist Labor Party to a box number +in Dallas appearing on Twiford Exhibit No. 1. I had my return address +on the envelope containing the material I sent to Oswald. + +3. Twiford Exhibit No. 1 is the envelope which Oswald sent to the +Socialist Labor Party in New York, and which they in turn sent to me. + +4. The handwritten note across the front of this envelope, containing +the words "Labor Day issue WP, 9/11/63" is in my handwriting and +indicates that I mailed to Oswald on September 11, 1963, the Labor Day +issue of the "Weekly People." I do not recall if this was the first +time I sent him material. + +5. I recollect having flown home to visit my wife on September 27, +1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, where the S.S. Del Monte, the ship +upon which I was working, was docked. Either at this time or on October +1, when the S.S. Del Monte reached Houston, my wife told me that a L. +H. Oswald had called and asked for me during the week. My wife had +written his name and the words "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" on a +piece of paper in order to mention the telephone call. + +6. I recollect that my wife told me that this telephone call had taken +place during the week preceding my visit home. I had been home on the +previous weekend, and neither at that time nor prior thereto had my +wife said anything about a telephone call from Oswald. + +7. I have never seen nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Signed this 11th day of July 1964. + + (S) Horace Elroy Twiford, + HORACE ELROY TWIFORD. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. ESTELLE TWIFORD + +The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Estelle Twiford on July 2, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Harris, ss_: + +I, Mrs. Estelle Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly +sworn say: + +1. I am the wife of Horace Elroy Twiford. + +2. In late September of 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald telephoned my house and +asked to speak to my husband. I told him that my husband was at sea. +Oswald inquired as to how my husband had his address. He also said that +he had hoped to discuss ideas with my husband for a few hours before +he flew down to Mexico. He said he only had a few hours. I assume he +was calling from the Houston area since he did not, to my knowledge, +place a long distance call. However, he did not specifically say that +he was in Houston. I have no information concerning his whereabouts +when this call was placed. I told him if he desired to correspond with +my husband, he could direct a letter to 7018 Schley Street, Houston, +Texas, and I would see that my husband received it. + +3. I cannot recall the date of the call, but I think it occurred during +the week prior to the weekend my husband flew home to visit me from New +Orleans where his ship was docked. I recall, my husband had shipped out +the weekend prior to the call. + +4. I cannot recall the exact time he called, but I think that it was in +the evening, sometime between 7:00 and 10:00 o'clock. I was not working +during this period. + +5. I wrote down on a slip of paper that Oswald had called and that he +mentioned he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I did +this in order to remember to tell my husband about the call. I told my +husband about the call on the weekend he visited me. I have initialed +and released note made of telephone call. (To Secret Service.) + +6. Oswald did not state what he was going to Mexico for, nor did he +state how long he would be there. + +7. Other than the above mentioned telephone call, I have never had any +contact with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +8. I am not a member of the Socialist Labor Party. + +Signed this 2d day of July 1964. + + (S) Mrs. Estelle Twiford, + MRS. ESTELLE TWIFORD. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA H. JAMES + +The testimony of Virginia H. James was taken at 2:15 p.m., on June +17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal +Adviser, Department of State, was present. + + +Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, would you state your name for the record? + +Miss JAMES. Virginia H. James. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you mind raising your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, +the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss JAMES. I do. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, as you know, you are the International +Relations Officer, Office of Soviet Affairs, in the Department of +State. You will be asked to testify about your actions with respect to +Oswald concerning his attempt to return to the United States commencing +in 1961, and his attempt to secure a visa for his wife, Marina. + +You will also be questioned concerning your actions in connection with +obtaining a waiver of Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality +Act for Marina, and what part, if any, you had in getting the Bureau +of Immigration and Naturalization to reverse its initial decision to +refuse such waiver. And I will also ask you a few questions on whether +you have any knowledge concerning actions taken by the Department in +1959 when Oswald first attempted to renounce his American citizenship. +Would you state for the record your present address? + +Miss JAMES. 2501 Q Street NW. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are you presently employed by the Federal Government? + +Miss JAMES. I am employed by the Department of State in the Office of +Soviet Union Affairs. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What is your official title? + +Miss JAMES. International Relations Officer. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you occupy that position from 1959 through to date? + +Miss JAMES. I did; and do still. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I have shown you, and I take it you are generally familiar +with, the resolution of Congress which was adopted by Congress in +connection with this Commission. + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. To the best of your present knowledge, Miss James, could +you tell me the first time you heard the name Oswald? + +Miss JAMES. When I read a copy of the telegram from the American +Embassy at Moscow, dated, as I recall, October 30, 1959, saying that +Oswald had called at the Embassy and had attempted to renounce his +American citizenship. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you accept my suggestion if I told you that that +telegram was dated October 31 rather than the 30th? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why did you receive, obtain or see a copy of the telegram? + +Miss JAMES. To begin with, it is my function in the Department of State +in the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, to handle matters relating to +visas, issuance of visas and passport matters from the political angle +only. + +Mr. COLEMAN. For what area? + +Miss JAMES. For the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and it is part of +our responsibility to know what goes on in the American Embassy in +Moscow, and to see how it is handled in order that we can continue +our function of advising, helping and assisting so it is routine for +our office to get a copy of all these telegrams. Practically every +telegram that goes back and forth between the Embassy in Moscow and the +Department, both ways, comes through our office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What did you do after you received the telegram, or saw a +copy of the telegram? + +Miss JAMES. I think we took no action at that time. We read it with +a great deal of interest, as we do all of this type of case of a +potential defector, and a person who is an American citizen who is +renouncing American citizenship is very unusual. I don't recall any +action except that I know it was a source, I mean the subject of +unhappy conversation in the office, to see this man carrying on this +type of action. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You knew, didn't you, that within 2 or 3 days after the +telegram was received, that the State Department sent a reply to the +Embassy? + +Miss JAMES. I must have seen it. I notice from the file copy I cleared +it, but I don't remember that exact telegram. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 916, which is a copy of +the telegram. + +Miss JAMES. I recall this. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You do recall it? + +Miss JAMES. I do. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall clearing the text of it? + +Miss JAMES. I can't recall clearing the text of it, but I am perfectly +sure that it was a natural thing for me to clear the text. + +Mr. COLEMAN. They normally would clear it with your office? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And so, therefore, when it is recorded in the lower +left-hand corner that it had been cleared with you, you have no doubt +of the accuracy of that statement? + +Miss JAMES. I have no reason to doubt. + +Mr. COLEMAN. The accuracy of that statement? + +Miss JAMES. Because we, the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, try to get +all offices in the Department to clear everything that is going to +Moscow. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After clearing the telegram, what was the next time that +you had anything to do with the name Oswald, to the best of your +knowledge? + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, we had a copy of the report that came in from +the Embassy telling more in detail about his appearance at the Embassy, +and I also read it in the Washington papers. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as James Exhibit No. 1, and I show you--a +reference sheet from Bernice Waterman to EE:SOV, Virginia James, under +date of November 25, 1959, and I ask you do you remember seeing that +reference sheet? + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 1 for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I remember seeing it in this form [pointing to +document in the file]. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That [James Exhibit No. 1] is a photostatic copy? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I mean the yellow [copy in the file] I recall. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know why you asked them to send you a copy of the +telegram of November 2? + +Miss JAMES. Again, it is in accordance with my continuing +responsibility to follow these cases of visa and passport matters, +and the only way we can be informed is to have all the incoming and +outgoing correspondence. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After you received that document which has been marked as +James Exhibit No. 1, did you receive other material from Miss Waterman +in connection with Oswald during the period November 2, 1959, to July +1961? + +Miss JAMES. I don't recall having received anything from Miss Waterman, +but I am sure that we would have had copies of anything coming back and +forth, back from the Embassy on the case which we would have read. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you would say that you or someone in your +office should have received in the normal course every Embassy Despatch +dealing with Oswald that went to the Department of State? + +Miss JAMES. Routine. In fact, it would have been out of order if we +hadn't gotten it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you early in December 1959 draft a letter for Mr. +Davis' signature to Mr. Snyder dealing with the general question of how +he should handle people who want to renounce their citizenship in the +Soviet Union? + +Miss JAMES. May I ask is that the letter in which we tried to give him +helpful advice in handling cases of people who tried to renounce? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Miss JAMES. Yes; and, as I recall--if it is the letter I think--it +included several paragraphs that had been contributed by Mr. Hickey in +the Passport Office. I am not sure that is the one. I would like to see +it, please. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I show you a photostatic copy of a letter which has +already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 915. It is from Nathaniel +Davis to Richard E. Snyder, and it is under date of December 10, 1959, +and it is State Department File Document No. XIII-40. I ask you whether +you drafted that letter. + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, I did. I am sure I did, in fact. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You were replying to Mr. Snyder's letter to Mr. Boster, +under date of October 28, 1959, which has already been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 914, is that correct? + +Miss JAMES. As I read this letter, it didn't refer specifically to the +Oswald case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That is because the Oswald case hadn't yet occurred. + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I mean the effect of renouncing. I mean it had no +relation; yes. He had called that in. Yes; I remember that. This isn't +the one, though. You just handed me one by Mr. Snyder to Mr. Davis. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Miss JAMES. Now, you asked me if I drafted it. I did draft it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, I take it that after you drafted the letter of +December 10, Commission Exhibit No. 915, that from that time until some +time in July 1961 that you had no knowledge of any actions with respect +to Oswald. + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, I did not, unless, as I say, there had been +something in from Moscow in the ordinary routine way it would have gone +across my desk. + +Mr. COLEMAN. On July 11, 1961, or shortly thereafter, perhaps on July +12, the State Department received a Foreign Service Despatch dated July +11, 1961, from the American Embassy in Moscow, which has already been +marked as Commission Exhibit No. 935. I show you a photostatic copy +of Commission Exhibit No. 935 and ask you whether you have seen the +original or a copy of that document? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I recall this. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you saw that, what did you do? + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, at that time, in 1961, through that period +there were several persons in the Soviet Union who attempted or could +be placed in the category of defectors. Webster was one, these various +people that Mr. Snyder mentioned, and this was a very serious question. +We discussed these matters in our office, and so when we saw this, +we immediately were interested in it, and the most important thing +to our mind was what answer is going to be made to it. So I think I +called Miss Waterman and wanted to know what the Passport Office, what +action they were going to take on the letter, and told her that SOV was +interested and we wanted to clear it, as I recall. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you speak first to Mr. Boster about it? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I would have talked to Mr. Boster about this. He was +interested in it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Who is he? + +Miss JAMES. He was officer in charge of our office at that time. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was he your superior? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What did you tell Miss Waterman? + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, I would not have made any policy, any effort +to judge what they would do, but I would only say we want to know what +action you are going to take. That is the way I recall that I would +handle it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you say that the Passport Office was the only office +of the State Department whose communications to Moscow are not cleared +in the SOV? + +Miss JAMES. Miss Waterman says I did, and I wouldn't be surprised if I +had said it. I know we all felt many times that we would like to have +had more of the communications cleared with us, and I have no doubt +that I must have said it if she said I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall her replying that she had never heard +that---- + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I do remember at one time she said she didn't recall +that this was a necessity, that they had to clear everything with us. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But she did tell you that she would put a memorandum in +the file to show that there was a special interest of the SOV in the +reply to the Embassy Despatch of July 11? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was the special interest of the SOV? + +Miss JAMES. Again, it is the same interest I outlined before, which +is our responsibility of advising and knowing what is going on in the +Embassy in Moscow. We are the political office. We are responsible for +the Embassy, and we work together very closely, and we want to be sure +that what they send in is answered, how it is answered, and it is our +routine way of working to be sure that any despatch is answered, and +especially one of this type where we are interested in the case because +of the nature of the case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I show you an operations memorandum from the Department of +State to the American Embassy in Moscow, dated August 18, 1961, which +has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 939, and I ask you +if you saw a copy of that memorandum at or around the time when it was +sent, namely in August 1961? + +Miss JAMES. My reply is we should have seen it, but whether we did or +not I don't think we did according to this file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You are saying there is nothing on the file which +indicates that you got a copy. + +Miss JAMES. Nothing on the file that indicates we had it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You said that---- + +Miss JAMES. But I think we must have known that they made this decision. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with the making of the +decision? + +Miss JAMES. No; I don't think I can say we had anything to do with the +making of the decision. Those matters are legal decisions, and the +Passport Office would make it on the basis of their information. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You or your office never called, to the best of your +knowledge---- + +Miss JAMES. To needle them on to make it? No. + +Mr. COLEMAN. To make it one way or the other? + +Miss JAMES. No. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me from your file the next document that +you looked at after receiving a copy of the Embassy despatch of July +11, 1961? + +Miss JAMES. I have some notes I think will help me better than the file +which isn't in chronological order. I think it would have been the +Embassy report asking for a security advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's +visa application, which would be August 28, 1961, Commission No. +X-26---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. You mean State Department number. + +Miss JAMES. I say, State Department No. X-26(2). + +Mr. COLEMAN. Can the record show that the Commission exhibit number on +that document is Commission Exhibit No. 944. + +Now, you say you received a copy of the August 28, 1961---- + +Miss JAMES. Yes, sir; I received that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Operations memorandum---- + +Miss JAMES. Twenty-five. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you received a copy, what did you do? + +Miss JAMES. I have no exact remembrance of that, but I can tell you +what my practice is. In receiving a document like this, and we have +many cases similar, I keep it some place handy, and I will check with +the Visa Office and see what they are going to do about it, and are +they going to--are they handling it. Then we follow through to see if +she is passed by the various security offices. We are aware when these +come in that a person has an exit visa. This time it was before the +exit visa, I think. Yes--well, we were trying to get this case prepared +so it wouldn't be held up in Moscow because of investigations that +might be delayed on this side. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why would you do that? + +Miss JAMES. Only because it is our regular practice to expedite these +matters. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Wouldn't that depend upon whether the case was meritorious +or not? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; but I mean as a general thing we would expedite, +hoping it would be expedited until it its turned down. Then if it is +turned down, that is the end of it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What you are saying is that SOV just wants to make sure +that all the paperwork gets done, that you are really not making the +decisions but you don't want any decision held up on the ground that +the papers aren't there, but you have no particular interest which way +the decision would be made? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; we have an interest in that. We know from our policy +what we think is good for the U.S. Government, and we would hope that +cases are handled in that framework. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you say that there was a decision in the Oswald case +that the best thing for the United States was to get Oswald out of +Moscow, Russia, and back to the United States, even if he had renounced +his citizenship? + +Miss JAMES. I can't go on that because that is a supposition, but +on the basis of the case we felt that it was better for the U.S. +Government to bring Oswald back. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Who made that decision? + +Miss JAMES. Again, that is our general policy. When we received this +OMV asking for an advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's visa application, +we already knew that the Passport Office had approved her husband's +citizenship. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So you say, therefore, that once it was clear that Oswald +was still an American citizen, that you felt it was to the interests of +the United States? + +Miss JAMES. Of the United States? + +Mr. COLEMAN. To get him out of Russia? + +Miss JAMES. To get him out of the Soviet Union, and also to bring his +family. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, could you look in file No. VIII of the State +Department, Document No. 21. Is that a telegram? + +Miss JAMES. No; that is a wire. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you read what it says? Will you describe to whom it +is sent and tell me what it means? + +Miss JAMES. It says, it is addressed to the American Embassy in Moscow +and refers to this request for an advisory opinion---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. It has typed thereon: SOV, Miss James. You signed it, +didn't you? + +Miss JAMES. No; this was the Visa Office telegram, and in fact I didn't +initial that telegram. It has my name on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Does it have your name? + +Miss JAMES. It has my name typed on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. On October 3, 1961, a cable was sent to the Embassy in +Moscow having something to do with Oswald. Would you indicate for the +record what the cable said? + +Miss JAMES. As I understand it, the cable authorized the American +Embassy in Moscow to issue a visa to Mrs. Oswald if when she appeared +there was nothing against her otherwise derogatory, and the cable also +indicated that her membership in the Trade Union would not affect the +issuance of a visa, that such membership did not indicate that she was +a Communist. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, the cable or the copy that I have seen indicates that +it was typed by you, at least your name appears on it. + +Miss JAMES. No; it was drafted by the Visa Office, drafted by V. Smith, +typed by initials RLC, signed in the Visa Office by Frank L. Auerbach, +and sent to the Soviet Desk, Office of Soviet Union Affairs, for +clearance, typed "SOV Miss James" and in parentheses "(in substance)," +and I apparently was out that day and it has Mr. Owen's initials on it, +and there is another initial which I don't identify, but mine are not +on that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But to the best of your recollection you never saw that or +had anything to do with it? + +Miss JAMES. Never saw that cable, but I was aware that they approved it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Had there been some discussion of the operation memorandum +of August 28, 1961, Commission Exhibit No. 944, in your office as to +whether Mrs. Marina Oswald was eligible for a nonquota immigrant visa? + +Miss JAMES. I don't recall any special detailed discussion, except +that this was a case, an unusual case, which we would be interested in +following. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Were you the one in the office who had the initial contact +with the INS, in connection with the waiver of section 243(g)? + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, I had no contact with INS at that time. +I never remember discussing these cases directly with INS. Our +conversations were all with the Visa Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You dealt directly with the Visa Office? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Is Mr. Crump in your office? + +Miss JAMES. I was going to say I dealt with Mr. Crump in the Visa +Office at that time. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But he is not in your office? + +Miss JAMES. No; he was in the Visa Office, now assigned abroad. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that the Visa Office had made a request of +INS to get it to, (1) determine whether Mrs. Oswald was eligible to +come into the country, and, (2) whether it would waive the section +243(g) provision? I just asked you, Miss James, what you knew. When was +the first time you knew that---- + +Miss JAMES. When Mr. Crump told me that INS had approved the petition +of the husband but had not approved the request for waiver of section +No. 243(g). + +Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to that time, you had nothing to do with the visa +request or the section 243(g) waiver? + +Miss JAMES. No; I don't recall having anything to do with it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall---- + +Miss JAMES. As I recall, it was a surprise to me that it was refused. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you had nothing to do with the first petition? + +Miss JAMES. No. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You weren't the one that sent the petition from the +Department of State to INS? + +Miss JAMES. No; that is routine visa work. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall when Mr. Crump informed you that INS had +refused to grant the waiver under section 243(g)? + +Miss JAMES. I don't recall the date. I do recall his informing me that +they had had this information from INS that the petition was approved, +but that the section 243(g) waiver was not approved and, therefore, +it looked as though Mrs. Oswald would not be able to come directly to +the United States. If she came at all she would have to go via another +country that did not have this sanction against it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could you explain for the record just what the sanction is +under section 243(g)? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; the sanction is that the United States will not +issue an immigration visa to a citizen of a country which refuses to +accept a deportee from the United States based on the reasoning that +if you can't deport to that country, if a person turns out to be an +unsatisfactory immigrant, you are stuck with that immigrant. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Does that mean that the person cannot come into the United +States? + +Miss JAMES. No; it means that Mrs. Oswald could have gone to Belgium, +France, England, any other country that accepts deportees, and applied +for an immigration visa and have been admitted without any question on +a section 243(g) waiver. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I have marked as James Exhibit No. 2 a memorandum from +Robert I. Owen to John E. Crump, under date of March 16, 1962, and +the subject of the memorandum is: "Operation of sanctions imposed by +Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act in case of Mrs. +Marina N. Oswald." + +(The document referred to was marked James Deposition Exhibit No. 2, +for identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you prepare the original of that memorandum. + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I prepared it under Mr. Owen's supervision. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall Mr. Owen asking you to prepare it? + +Miss JAMES. This was my responsibility, this case, but I had long +discussions with Mr. Owen on the case as to how we should proceed with +it before I wrote the memorandum. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And Mr. Owen told you, "Why don't you draft a memorandum +for Mr. Crump explaining to him the situation?" + +Miss JAMES. We came to agreement in a talk as to how to handle the +case, and I drafted the memorandum which would go to Mr. Crump because +he was the officer in the Visa Office handling the case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. In the third paragraph of the memorandum it is stated +that: "SOV believes it is in the interest of the U.S. to get Lee Harvey +Oswald and his family out of the Soviet Union and on their way to +this country soon. An unstable character, whose actions are entirely +unpredictable, Oswald may well refuse to leave the USSR or subsequently +attempt to return there if we should make it impossible for him to be +accompanied from Moscow by his wife and child." + +Did you draft that? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was this language that Mr. Owen had discussed with you and +told you to put in the memorandum? + +Miss JAMES. My way of working is to draft a memorandum in rough draft. +I give it to Mr. Owen. He and I--he might well have put in some few +words. I don't know just where he would have changed it or whether he +did change it. I can't say. It is impossible to say at this time unless +I had the original draft, but I know he was in agreement with this. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Were you the one that brought up the point that Oswald was +an unstable character, or was that something Mr. Owen contributed? + +Miss JAMES. I believe the Department--I will say our office was sure +that he was an unstable character by the very fact that he had tried +to renounce his American citizenship, and then come--by the fact he +had tried to renounce his American citizenship, makes him an unstable +character to me. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was it your thought that once he got out of Russia and +back into the United States, that we wouldn't let him go back again? + +Miss JAMES. I think we would have--I would have, based on my work in +the office, I would have hoped we would have done everything to keep +him from going back. Whether the passport regulations would have made +this possible, I don't know. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You never wrote a memorandum to the Passport Office, +though? + +Miss JAMES. No; that if he applies again, don't let him go back--no; we +did not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why didn't you do that in the light of the fact---- + +Miss JAMES. Because there was no reason at this time. He was in the +Soviet Union trying to get out, and it would not have occurred to me to +predict that 5 years from now he might want to go back and we should +put a stop on his passport. In fact, I don't ever recall taking such +action. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After you drafted this memorandum, did you send the +telegram to the Embassy which you suggest in the last paragraph should +be sent? + +Miss JAMES. I did not send any telegram as far as I know. If it had +been sent, it would have been sent by the Visa Office on the basis of +our recommendation. I would assume if they agreed to this memorandum, +they sent it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was the memorandum which I have marked as James Exhibit +No. 2 in any way motivated or written as a result of the telegram dated +March 15, 1962, which you received from the Embassy in Moscow, which +says: "Please advise when decision on petition in 243(g) waiver Lee +Oswald wife may be expected," which I have marked as James Exhibit No. +3 and am showing you a copy of it. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 3 for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. May I have you repeat that question again, please? + +Mr. COLEMAN. I am asking you was the memorandum of March 16, 1962, +drafted by you, which we have marked as James Exhibit No. 2, in any way +motivated by the telegram from the Embassy dated March 15, which I have +marked as James Exhibit No. 3? It came out of State Department file +IV-13. + +Miss JAMES. My memory is that it was not motivated in entirety, +although undoubtedly the telegram brought the case to our attention. +As I recall in those days or weeks preceding March 16, I had been in +conversation with Mr. Crump and Mr. Owen and I had been discussing the +case, and I cannot be sure, but I believe that we would have had this +in our mind before the telegram came in. But undoubtedly the telegram +would make us expedite the writing of this memorandum. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After you wrote the memorandum of March 16, 1961, did you +draft the letter which Mr. Crump sent to INS, asking it to reconsider +its original decision that it would not waive section 243(g)? + +Miss JAMES. May I see a copy of that letter? You asked me if I drafted +it? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Miss JAMES. No; I did not draft it, but I believe some of the reasoning +in the letter was based on the memorandum from SOV. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Can you tell me who drafted it? + +Miss JAMES. Mr. Crump has his initials on the file copy. Again, I +didn't clear that outgoing letter. Mr. Owen cleared it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft a memorandum from Mr. Hale to Mr. +Cieplinski, dated March 20, 1962, or did Mr. Crump draft that? + +Miss JAMES. Mr. Crump drafted that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. March 20, 1962. + +Miss JAMES. We have March 23 from Hale to Cieplinski. It was drafted on +the 20th, apparently sent on the 23d. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 3-A a memorandum from Mr. +Hale to Mr. Cieplinski in re immigrant visa of Mrs. Marina H. Oswald, +and ask you whether you have seen a copy of that document. + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You got a copy, but you didn't draft it? + +Miss JAMES. No; you said, did I see a copy of it, I thought. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes; and is that the same document that you described as +the memorandum dated March 23? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After the memorandum---- + +Miss JAMES. May I have a moment, please, to read this letter that they +sent to the INS? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sure. + +Miss JAMES. Which I don't remember seeing before. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You didn't draft that letter? + +Miss JAMES. No. Thank you. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You say you didn't draft that? + +Miss JAMES. No; it was drafted in the Visa Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you knew that it had gone out, I take it? + +Miss JAMES. I received a copy of it, so, therefore, I knew that they +had sent this to the head of the Special Consular Administration at +that time, SCA. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now after---- + +Miss JAMES. Special Consular Affairs, I beg your pardon. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After that letter was sent out, did you have occasion to +call INS, and ask them to find out what the status of the letter was? + +Miss JAMES. To the best of my memory I never called INS on this case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. My problem is I have a letter here which is from Robinson +to Michael Cieplinski, and it says at the bottom: "5-29-62 Miss James +SOV called to say she had received letter from Mr. Oswald's mother +saying he had written he had no money and was unable to travel." + +Miss JAMES. I would have called the Visa Office on that. That doesn't +mean I called INS. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, I see. All your calls were to the Visa Office? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; in fact, I think I am clear that in saying that there +is a policy that all approaches to INS are through the Visa Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 4 a copy of a letter from +Robert H. Robinson to Mr. Michael Cieplinski, dated May 9, 1962, and I +ask you whether you have seen a copy of that letter. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 4 for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. I don't recall having seen it at the time. I do recall +reading it in the file prior to my coming to this meeting. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall making the call that they at the bottom said +you made? + +Miss JAMES. I am sure that I did if Mr. Crump put his initials on it. I +don't remember it. I do remember the letter from Mr. Oswald's mother. +In fact, I had some telephone calls from her, also. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall receiving a copy of a telegram from the +Embassy at Moscow, which telegram is dated May 4, 1962, which I have +marked as James Exhibit No. 5? + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 5 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Have you seen that telegram? + +Miss JAMES. An information copy came to EUR, which is European Bureau, +and I am sure that that means that an information copy came on down to +the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and I would have seen it, and that +is why I called to inquire about the case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And there is a note on there that on May 8, 1962, you +called to inquire about the case and apparently you were told that the +waiver had been granted. + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know why you made the call? + +Miss JAMES. Well, I would have considered, reading it today, that this +is an urgent telegram from the Embassy in Moscow wanting some action +from the Department, and I would have made the call to try to get done +what the Embassy was pleading for, action one way or the other on this +case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you clear this with anybody else within the office? + +Miss JAMES. There is nothing to clear on this, only that I called to +find out--I might well have talked to Mr. Owen about this telegram. I +am sure he saw it. The general routing is for telegrams to go through +the officer in charge to the person who handles the specific subject, +but it has been a part of my duty to have called them to---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you say that as a result of getting the telegram from +Moscow, that you without consulting with anybody else in the office +would call and find out the status? + +Miss JAMES. I wouldn't have to have any further instruction on that +telegram. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I would then like to show you a document which has been +marked as Commission--James Exhibit No. 7 which is a telegram to the +American Embassy in Moscow, dated May 8, 1962, and ask you whether you +sent that telegram. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 7 for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. That telegram was sent by the Visa Office of the +Department, and was apparently cleared by me telephonically and +initialed by Mr. Crump as having cleared with me over the telephone. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, I see, Mr. Crump is in the Visa Office? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; now this gives me a lead to another paper back there, +where I said I had not seen it. It had Mr. Owen's initials or some +initials, which I couldn't identify. + +I now identify those initials as Mr. Crump's initials, and, after that, +it said Miss James, in substance. I now realize that he had probably +telephoned to me, cleared it in substance, initialed it, sent it up to +SOV, and Mr. Owen put his initials on it, and I never had my initials +on it for that reason. + +Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, you say that this telegram which I have +marked as James Exhibit No. 7, was actually drafted by Mr. Crump as +a result of Mr. Crump's office finding out that the waiver had been +granted? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That they called you, told you what they were going to do, +and you said, "Fine," and that is how your name got on the telegram? + +Miss JAMES. That is why my name is there and Mr. Crump's initials above +it show that he was the officer who cleared it with me. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, I take it in the document that I have marked as James +Exhibit No. 8, which is a telegram dated March 20, 1962, in which the +Embassy at Moscow was instructed to "withhold action on Department's +OMV 61" because the sanction is being reconsidered. That telegram also +was not drafted by you, and the only reason why your name appears on it +is that it was cleared with you over the telephone. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 8 for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. Yes; and, again, although that was cleared, those are my +initials, VHJ, that is my initials. It was apparently cleared over the +phone telephonically and also sent it up to us and Mr. Owen and I each +initialed it, VHJ, and O for Owen. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But the fact that your name appeared on the telegrams +doesn't mean you wrote them? + +Miss JAMES. No; you see, the way the telegrams are in the State +Department, that first line says drafted by, and then underneath is +clearances, and those offices are clearing offices. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And could you identify for me a letter which I have marked +James Exhibit No. 6, which is a letter from Michael Cieplinski to Mr. +Farrell, dated March 27, 1962. I ask you whether that is a copy of the +letter which was sent forward to the Immigration Service asking them to +reconsider the waiver? + +Miss JAMES. This exhibit is a photostatic copy of the file copy which +is in the file I am examining, and it is an exact copy. I did not clear +it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. As far as you know, that is a copy of the letter? + +Miss JAMES. An exact copy; yes. I see the initials are carried through. +Everything is exactly the way the file copy is, the Department's file +copy. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to mark as James Exhibit No. 9 a transmittal +slip under date of March 16, 1962, and it bears the signature which +purports to be Virginia H. James, and I ask you whether that is your +signature that appears thereon. + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, what occasioned your sending this transmittal slip to +the American Embassy and the attachment? + +Miss JAMES. We wanted the Embassy in Moscow to know what we were doing +on the despatches and telegrams that they sent in, and that we were +in agreement with their recommendation, that we were making these +recommendations to the Visa Office, and this would more or less give +them some assurance that their recommendations were in harmony with our +thinking. This is the way we work, very closely with the Embassy in +Moscow. + +When we are in harmony with what they do, we write memos through the +Department. We frequently send memos to them so they say, "Well, we +have made the right recommendation. The Political Office is supporting +us and now we wait for the other offices in the Department." + +Mr. COLEMAN. Were you aware, did you know, or did you have anything to +do with suggesting to the Embassy that they should try to send Mrs. +Marina Oswald into the country by her first going to Brussels? + +Miss JAMES. No; except that is a regular procedure that we use, we call +it third country procedure. The immigrant can't come directly to the +United States. They do go to another country. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you were not the one to suggest it in the Oswald case? + +Miss JAMES. No; it is established procedure, though. It would not be +unusual for any officer in the Visa Office to think of that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't suggest it? + +Miss JAMES. No; I did not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, when Mr. Oswald came into the country--when Oswald +left Moscow, I take it you were informed the day he left or the day +after he left, and did you receive a copy of the telegram from Moscow +to the State Department, dated May 31? + +Miss JAMES. Yes; our office received it, SOV. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I have marked that as James Exhibit No. 10. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 10, for +identification.) + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you then, after he got back, drafted a letter to +Oswald's mother? + +Miss JAMES. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark that as James Exhibit No. 11. + +(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 11 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. This is in file IV, a copy of it. I show you a copy of a +letter from Robert I. Owen to Mrs. Oswald, under date of June 7, 1962, +and ask you whether that is the letter. + +Miss JAMES. Yes; I drafted that letter. I recall it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, in connection with the Oswald case, was there any +instance where you wanted to do one thing but somebody told you no, +something else would have to be done? + +Miss JAMES. In the Oswald case? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Miss JAMES. We worked in harmony on these cases. The Visa Office is +very well--harmonize with SOV policy on these cases. There is no +bickering or unpleasantness or somebody pulling one way or the other. +We seem to go along with them. Every time one comes up they go along in +the regular way based upon established policy. + +Mr. COLEMAN. There was no instance where you said, "I think that this +ought to be done" and somebody said, "I don't care what you think, this +is the way it should be done." + +Miss JAMES. No. + +Mr. COLEMAN. In all these cases you discussed the problem with the Visa +Office and you reached a mutual agreement. You never had a dispute? + +Miss JAMES. I recall no such feeling or reactions. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You had indicated earlier, Miss James, that there was a +general policy in your office to see that husbands and wives were not +separated. Would you want to describe for the record just what that +policy was? + +Miss JAMES. May I go back historically? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Miss JAMES. Since the time we first recognized the Soviet Union, we +have had these cases of separated families, spouses, husbands and +wives and children and other relatives who by some reason or another, +mostly because of the operation of Communist policy, have become +separated from their American citizen families. And from the time we +first recognized the Soviets, this has been a problem there. Files are +filled with notes to the Soviet Government asking them to please issue +exit visas to permit certain relatives to join families in the United +States. This has gone on, and I remember hearing an officer say that if +the result of recognizing the Soviet Union was for no other reason than +to assist these people this was a very powerful reason. During World +War II no visas were issued and nobody traveled and this died. Right +after the war we again had the problem of people trying to get their +relatives out, and the number was greatly increased by Russia taking +over those various countries, Lithuania, Estonia, parts of Poland, +parts of Czechoslovakia, Rumania went into the Soviet Union, and we had +the number greatly enlarged. + +Then, in addition to that, because of war operations, American +citizens were stationed in the Soviet Union and they had married +Soviet women, and so we had pressing cases of correspondents. American +correspondents, a few people assigned to the Embassy in Moscow who +married Soviet wives, probably about 15 or 16 who were very, what we +would call, worthy cases of good marriages and good people who had made +a good marriage with women we thought were good people, and they have +since made good American citizens. + +So in 1953, when Stalin died, we had the first break, and they issued +the visas on this group. And since then we have gone forward with +this. We saw we had a break and so we have been pressing the Soviet +Government to issue visas to clear this problem up. + +In 1959 when Mr. Nixon went there, he was importuned by relatives to +help to get their relatives out, I mean American citizens, and he took +a list of about 80 people, and he agreed to take up these cases, and +we added a number of worthy cases, and Mr. Khrushchev said, "I want to +clear up this problem"--present it through channels. + +Since then, we have presented it through channels and we have succeeded +in getting about 800 relatives of American citizens out. And the +defector's wife falls into that pattern, because while we are not +sympathetic with these people we know that if we refuse to grant U.S. +visas to a wife of an American citizen, the Soviet Government can +immediately say, "Well, we grant visas to these people, exit visas. +Then you don't allow them to go to the United States. What does this +mean?" + +So that was the basis of our whole policy with Marina Oswald, that we +felt that we didn't want to put the Embassy in a position of fighting +for exit visas for relatives, and then when they issue you say, "Well, +this is not quite the kind we want." + +Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, you say that once the Passport Office +made the decision that Oswald was still an American citizen, then your +policy that you don't want to separate husbands and wives came into +play, and if the Soviet Union is willing to let both of them out, that +we will let them come in? + +Miss JAMES. That is the basic policy. That was the whole interest in +our Office, the Embassy in Moscow's primary interest there as far as +Marina Oswald was concerned, and her child. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I have no further questions. + +Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES L. RITCHIE + +The testimony of James L. Ritchie was taken at 12:20 p.m., on June +17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission, Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal +Adviser, Department of State, and Carroll H. Seeley, Jr., were present. + + +Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Ritchie, will you state your full name? + +Mr. RITCHIE. James L. Ritchie. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the +testimony you are about to give is the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I do. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Please state your name and address. + +Mr. RITCHIE. James L. Ritchie, 5010 North 13th Street, Arlington, Va. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Our information is, sir, that some time around October 22, +1963, you had occasion to look at the Oswald file---- + +Mr. RITCHIE. I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After the Department received a telegram from the CIA +indicating that Oswald had made an inquiry at the Russian Embassy in +Mexico City, and that you took certain action as a result of looking at +the file? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And that is what we want to ask you about, sir. But before +I do that, let me ask you a few preliminary questions. + +Mr. RITCHIE. Certainly. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You have given your address, is that correct? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Where are you presently working? + +Mr. RITCHIE. State Department Passport Office, Legal Division. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And what is your position? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Attorney advisor. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And how long have you been in that capacity? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Nine or ten years. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are you a member of the Bar? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes; District of Columbia. + +Mr. COLEMAN. When was the first time you ever heard the name Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. RITCHIE. October 22, 1963. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And would you indicate what occasioned your hearing the +name? + +Mr. RITCHIE. The Security Division transmitted a telegram from the +CIA marked Secret, to the Passport Office. It was received in the +Legal Division October 16, and it had been marked "Mr. Anderson, pull +previous" which means get the file, and it was then handed to me +October 21, approximately. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Who handed it to you? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I don't know. It was placed on my desk. I imagine the +file---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to that time, you hadn't called for the file? You +knew nothing about the case? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No; I knew nothing about it. It had been placed on my desk +for review. I read the telegram, noted that copies had been sent to +SCA, that is the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, CMA, Mexico, +the Soviet desk, and the press section of RAR. + +Mr. SEELEY. American Republics Political Division. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Then what did you do after you got the telegram? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I reviewed the entire file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That means you read every document in the file? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And do you have any idea how long it took you? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Not more than a half hour. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And then what did you do after you read or reviewed the +file? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I don't want to say I read every item. I read the majority. + +Mr. COLEMAN. As a lawyer? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes; I glanced over it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You read what you felt was relevant? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Relevant. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you did thumb through every document? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What did you then do? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I made a judgment there was no passport action to be +taken, and marked the file to be filed. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you make a written memorandum? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; just put "file" on it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you discuss it with Mr. Seeley or anyone else? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I took the file to Mr. Seeley. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you summarize for him what was in the file? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No; I did not. I don't know what my exact words were to +him. I must have said, "Look at this." + +Mr. COLEMAN. Didn't you say to him, "This guy was a defector"? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I don't recall what I said to him, back in October. I know +I said something to him. I directed his attention to it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Then did he discuss it with you? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You put the file on his desk and you didn't have anything +to do with it? + +Mr. RITCHIE. That is right. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why did you put it on his desk? + +Mr. RITCHIE. He was in charge of the section, and I just brought it to +him for his attention. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you do that with every file that you are asked to +review? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Those files that I thought should be brought to his +attention; yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you felt that this file was other than just +the routine file that you would look at and put back? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Wouldn't you tell Mr. Seeley something as to why you +thought it was other than routine? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; I just said "Look at it." I presume I just +directed his attention to the file, and that he should look at it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And then you had no more discussion with him? + +Mr. RITCHIE. None that I can recall. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you say anything to him, like for example, "This guy +the last time he was abroad tried to, or at least threatened that he +would give to the Soviets whatever he had learned in the Marine Corps +with reference to our radar information"? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I have no recollection of my conversation with Mr. Seeley. +All I know is my usual procedure is I review a case. If there is no +passport action to be taken, I place it, mark it "file" and place it in +the box to go to file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Without Mr. Seeley taking a look at it? + +Mr. RITCHIE. Without Mr. Seeley ever seeing it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And this one you felt---- + +Mr. RITCHIE. And this one I felt he should see. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't give him any memorandum---- + +Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Or point out what he should look at? + +Mr. RITCHIE. I may have directed his attention to the case, but I have +no independent recollection of it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Then after October 22, 1963, you had no contact with +Oswald, the file or anything else? + +Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; let me change that. I reviewed the file before I +came here. I have reviewed the file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, sure. + +That is all. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CARROLL HAMILTON SEELEY, JR. + +The testimony of Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr., was taken at 11 a.m., on +June 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Esq., Special Assistant to the +Legal Adviser, Department of State, and James L. Ritchie, were present. + + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state your full name, please, sir? + +Mr. SEELEY. Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you raise your right hand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this +deposition is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. SEELEY. I do. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I would like to state that you have been called and +asked to give a deposition because in looking through certain files +supplied us by the State Department, there are indications that you +had something to do with one or more of the documents in the file, and +we also want to ask you concerning what you did after you received +information that a person named Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Soviet +Embassy in Mexico City some time around the first of October. As we +understand it you received such notice on or about the 16th of October. + +Mr. SEELEY. I did see the notice. I think that I saw that notice on the +22d, on October 22, 1963. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Those are the two subjects that we are going to question +you about. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state your address for the record? + +Mr. SEELEY. My address is 6944 Nashville Road, Lanham, Md. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are you familiar with the congressional resolution in re +this Commission? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am familiar with the newspaper accounts. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You are familiar with the resolution? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am familiar with it to the extent that I have read in +the newspapers that there is a Commission set up to investigate the +assassination. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state whether you are presently employed by the +Federal Government? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. I am employed with the Department of State. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What is your position with the State Department? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am Assistant Chief of the Legal Division of the Passport +Office of the Department of State. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. SEELEY. Robert D. Johnson, chief counsel. + +Mr. COLEMAN. How long have you had that position? + +Mr. SEELEY. I have been in that position since approximately February +1962. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to February 1962, what was your position? + +Mr. SEELEY. I was Chief of the Security Branch of the Legal Division of +the Passport Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. How long did you have that job? + +Mr. SEELEY. I had held that job since approximately 1957. + +Mr. COLEMAN. As assistant to Mr. Johnson---- + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What are your duties? + +Mr. SEELEY. My duties are mainly supervisory and to review material +that has been prepared in the Passport Office Legal Division, and on +some occasions to clear information or material that has been prepared +in other divisions of the Passport Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I take it you are a lawyer? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are you a member of the Bar? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Of what State or States? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am a member of the Bar of the District of Columbia. + +Mr. COLEMAN. How long have you been with the Department of State? + +Mr. SEELEY. I have been with the Department of State since 1954. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me the first time you heard, read or saw +the name Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. SEELEY. Well, Mr. Coleman, I don't have an independent recollection +of that. I feel that probably the name first appears in the file on +March 28, 1961. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, by consulting the file, to refresh your +recollection, you think that the first time you heard or saw the name +Lee Harvey Oswald was in March 1961? + +Mr. SEELEY. It is possible, it may have been that I had heard of it +before, though, because he did have some publicity, and I usually +follow those items, but I don't have any recollection of it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What happened in March 1961, that occasioned your knowing +or hearing the name Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. SEELEY. May I look at the file? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Certainly. + +I take it, sir, you are looking at the file which is the file of the +passport--the original passport file of the State Department. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That is the file that has been given State Department file +No. X, is that correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +The first time my name appears in the file is on a form DS-10, which is +a reference slip, and it is addressed to Mr. Cacciatore in PT-F, and to +Mr. Seeley, in PT-LS. + +It requests to know insofar as I am concerned, should instruction be +classified confidential. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I will mark for the purposes of this deposition a +document as S-1, meaning Seeley Exhibit No. 1, which is the State +Department document which already has been marked by the State +Department as X-45. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 1 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Who is the reference slip dated March 28, 1961, from? + +Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Kupiec. + +Mr. COLEMAN. To two persons, and you are one of the two persons, Mr. +Seeley, is that correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I show you the document which has been marked as S-1 and +ask you is that a copy of the document you referred to? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that you got this because someone asked whether +the instructions should be classified as confidential. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't have an independent recollection of this, +but I assume that it is referring to this instruction which is State +Department's document X-47, which had been classified as Official Only. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I show you a document which has already been marked +as Commission Exhibit No. 969, and ask you whether these were the +instructions that were attached to S-1. + +Mr. SEELEY. So far as I am able to determine, I don't have an +independent recollection, but looking at the formation of the file and +the fact that this was not sent, and I know that there was another one +that was sent, I believe it is the same document. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you were asked as to whether it should be classified +as confidential? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What, if anything, did you do? + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't know. I have no recollection of what action I took +on that particular aspect of it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You don't recall ever talking to Miss Waterman or anyone +else in the Department as to what form the proposed instruction should +take? + +Mr. SEELEY. No. I don't know whether I even know Miss Waterman. I +know Mr. Kupiec, and I probably know Miss Waterman, but I don't have +recollection of what she looks like. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Kupiec as to what form the +instruction should take? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. This instruction was drafted by Miss Waterman, +and it was sent up for clearance to PTL, Mr. Johnson. I presume that +when it went to either Mr. Cacciatore or Mr. Kupiec, I put my name on +for the clearance procedure, in particular with regard to whether the +thing should have been classified, have a higher classification than it +did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You don't have any independent recollection of discussing +Oswald? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Or whether the instruction should have been in a different +form? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me the next occasion where you had anything +to do with Oswald, or the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion, I think, relates to document X-43. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to mark as S-2 a memorandum from Robert D. +Johnson to Mr. John T. White, under date of March 31, 1961, which in +the State Department files has been marked as X-43. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 2 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Is that the document referred to? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, sir, did you draft S-2? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Can you tell me the circumstances surrounding your +drafting S-2? + +Mr. SEELEY. This particular item I do have a recollection of because +there was a discussion between Mr. Johnson and myself concerning the +propriety of sending the passport through the mail as had been proposed. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was that discussion? + +Mr. SEELEY. We were opposed to this action on several grounds. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What were they? + +Mr. SEELEY. One was the fact that I think we already had information +that Mrs. Oswald, the mother, had not been able to get in touch with +her son. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You are talking about Oswald's mother? + +Mr. SEELEY. The mother; yes. And we felt that the mails shouldn't be +trusted for a U.S. passport which we know has a value outside the +United States. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, you also indicated in the memorandum that, "We should +not be bound by the opinion he expressed in paragraph 2 of his letter +set out in Moscow Despatch No. 985 of February 28, 1961." + +Mr. SEELEY. May I get that? It is No. 585. The paragraph that we are +referring to reads: "I desire to return to the United States, that is +if we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal +proceedings against me. If so, then I would be free to ask the Russian +authorities to allow me to leave. If I could show them my American +passport, I am of the opinion they would give me an exit visa." + +The item in the memorandum concerns itself mainly with his request for +agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against him. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You indicated that the Department ought not to give such +agreement. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Johnson with respect +to this March 31, 1961, memorandum? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't have a complete recollection of it, but +I do know that I did discuss this particular item, particularly the +mailing of the passport, with Mr. Johnson. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And do you recall what Mr. Johnson said? + +Mr. SEELEY. I think Mr. Johnson was the one that instructed me to draft +this so that we would not send this through the mail, so that the +passport would not be sent through the mail. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After the memorandum of March 31, 1961, and this +discussion you had with Mr. Johnson, what did you do? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am sorry? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft the instructions in the form that they +actually went forward? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with that? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; except I think there is a clearance, but I am not +sure about that. I think we cleared it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And the instructions that actually went forward did +indicate that they ought not to return the passport by mail? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was the date of that instruction? + +Mr. SEELEY. The instruction that went forward? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SEELEY. That was AE-173, of April 13, 1961. It is Department X-38. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Will the record show that that document has already been +marked as Commission Exhibit No. 971 before the Commission. You say +that you read Commission Exhibit No. 971 and cleared it before it went +forward? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Exhibit No. 971 which you referred to as X-38 shows on the +left-hand side that there is a notation that a copy of the instructions +was sent to the CIA. + +Mr. SEELEY. Was furnished to the CIA. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was that done at the same time the instructions went +forward? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with sending it to the CIA? + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't have a recollection on this. I would imagine what +happened is that there was a request by the CIA for a copy of this, and +that I authorized them to be furnished a copy on October 5, 1961. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I take it you actually read the instructions which went +forward on April 13, 1961. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. My initials are at the bottom. + +Mr. COLEMAN. The fact that your initials are at the bottom indicates +that you approved them? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was the next occasion on which you had anything to do +with the Oswald file or heard the name Oswald? + +Mr. SEELEY. I will have to check the file. The next occasion where the +record shows that I had something to do with the Oswald file concerns +Item X-31. It is a Department of State instruction, W-7, dated July +11, 1961, drafted by Mrs. Waterman, and I cleared this particular +instruction. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Can we note for the record that that instruction has +already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 975? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You cleared those instructions prior to the time you +received word from Mr. Snyder in the Embassy in Moscow that Oswald had +appeared at the Embassy on July 8, 10, or 11? + +Mr. SEELEY. Of 1961? + +Mr. COLEMAN. 1961. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; that is true. I wasn't sure of the time element +in there, but that is true. This went out the same day, apparently, +that the instruction was drafted and was sent in, or the despatch was +drafted and sent in. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you took that action or you approved that +action prior to the time that you knew that Oswald had appeared at the +Embassy in Moscow? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Is it a fair reading of the July 11, 1961, instructions +which you approved, that you indicated that Oswald could be given back +his passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I don't think so. I call your attention to +paragraph 5 of the despatch; "It is noted that the Embassy intends +to seek the Department's prior advice before granting Mr. Oswald +documentation as a United States citizen upon any application he may +submit." + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, as of this time it was still open as far as +the Department was concerned in Washington whether Oswald had renounced +his citizenship and was entitled to a passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't think that the adjudicative proceeding +had been completed. + +Mr. COLEMAN. When was the adjudicative process completed so far as you +were concerned, that the Passport Office in Washington determined that +in its opinion, that Mr. Oswald was still a citizen? + +Mr. SEELEY. I would say that the operations memorandum of August 18, +1961, from the Department of State to the American Embassy in Moscow +which refers to the Embassy Despatch No. 29, the passport renewal +application and the questionnaire. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You would say that as of that date the Passport Office +determined that Oswald was still a citizen? + +Mr. SEELEY. I would say at that date that we concurred in the +conclusion of the Embassy that he had not expatriated--that we had no +information or evidence that he had expatriated himself. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with this decision? + +Mr. SEELEY. Not the citizenship decision; no, sir. I had nothing to do +with that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You weren't consulted prior to the time the decision was +made? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you approve the operations memorandum of August 18? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. 1961; before it was sent forward? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. My initials are at the bottom there. + +Mr. COLEMAN. If you had disapproved it, at least there would have been +further discussion? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; there would have been. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, to that extent, you did have something to do with the +decision? + +Mr. SEELEY. Well, to that extent, there was no consultation. This +was sent up for clearance, and insofar as the citizenship angle was +concerned, I agreed with what they had done. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you call for and look at the file prior to the time +you initialed the operations memorandum of August 18, 1961? + +Mr. SEELEY. I would presume that I had the whole file. Mr. Ehrlich has +suggested that I mention that I was not in the citizenship area at the +time that I put my concurrence on this operations memorandum, and I was +looking at it only from the aspect of my own area. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was your area? + +Mr. SEELEY. I was in the Security Branch. I was Chief of the Security +Branch of the Legal Division. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What did you have to do with the decision? + +Mr. SEELEY. In this particular case if you had objected, I am sure that +there would have been further discussion on this particular case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 3--instead of "S" +I think we had better call these Seeley exhibits, the operations +memorandum dated August 18, 1961, from the Department of State to the +American Embassy. + +Mr. SEELEY. Fine, sir. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 3 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. That is the document that you referred to as X-27, is that +correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. X-27, that is correct. + +Mr. COLEMAN. If you had felt that there was evidence in the file that +Oswald had renounced his citizenship, I take it you would not have +approved this memorandum, is that correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I would not have. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You would not have approved it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I would not have approved it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. There would have been further discussions? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, as far as you were concerned in reviewing +the file and what you knew and looking over it, what Miss Waterman had +said and what Mr. Snyder had said, that your decision was that you saw +no reason why you would disagree with the decision? + +Mr. SEELEY. I was in complete agreement with the decision. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After you concurred in the operations memorandum of +August 18, 1961, what was the next occasion on which you had anything +to do with the Oswald file? + +Mr. SEELEY. So far as I can determine---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. The Commission Exhibit No. 979 is the same as I have +marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 3. + +Mr. SEELEY. So far as I can determine by examination of the file, the +next contact I had with the file concerns a slip that is part of State +X-19, consisting of a DS-10 reference slip dated 12-29-61. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That is attached to a letter from L. A. Mack, to the +Director of the Passport Office of the State Department, is that +correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Coleman, on that particular item, I don't think that +that was what it was attached to. I think it was probably attached to +X-20. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What is that? + +Mr. SEELEY. That is a memorandum from Miss Knight to Mr. Boswell. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Will you read that memorandum into the record? It is short. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes; the subject is: "Lee Harvey Oswald." It is classified +"Confidential." + +It states: "We refer to the Office Memorandum of July 27, 1961, from +SY, which stated that 'renounced United States citizenship.' Mr. Oswald +attempted to renounce United States citizenship but did not in fact +renounce United States citizenship. Our determination on the basis of +the information and evidence presently of record is that Mr. Oswald did +not expatriate himself, and remains a citizen of the United States." + +Mr. COLEMAN. You say that your reference slip of 12-29-61 was attached +to that memorandum? + +Mr. SEELEY. I would presume it was. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Would you look at the letter, the Mack letter from the +Immigration and Naturalization Service to the Director of Passports? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am looking at it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you see that letter or did you have anything to do +with that letter? + +Mr. SEELEY. So far as I know, I had nothing to do with that letter. I +have seen the letter. + +Mr. COLEMAN. By the time you did, the reference slip of 12-29-61--which +I would like the reporter to indicate was marked Seeley Exhibit No. +4--what was your job in the State Department? + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 4 for +identification.) + +Mr. SEELEY. At the time that I--I was still Chief of the Security +Branch of the Legal Division. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What does PT-L mean? + +Mr. SEELEY. PT-L, Passport-Legal, PT-LS, Passport-Legal Security. + +To give you an idea about it, the Legal Division is divided into two +branches, and we have a short designation for it, PT-LS and PT-LAD. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I see. + +Mr. SEELEY. I will tell you further if you wish, about this particular +item. This was---- + +Mr. COLEMAN. What is this particular item? You are now talking about +the letter? + +Mr. SEELEY. The letter; yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. It is the Mack letter? + +Mr. SEELEY. State Department File X-19. It was addressed to our Liaison +Branch, and I see at the bottom it was reviewed by Mr. Reichman, of the +Immigration and Naturalization Service. And I would presume that I did +not, that this was not in the file at the time that this DS-10, that it +was probably in Liaison, and the file was called for. It was reviewed. +The file was then reviewed by Mr. Reichman who answered for his own +service. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, sir; what was the next occasion on which you had +anything to do with the Oswald file? + +Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion concerns Item X-11. + +Mr. COLEMAN. We have marked as Seeley Deposition Exhibit No. 5 a +memorandum from Robert Owen, to Michael Cieplinski, dated March 23, +1962. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 5 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. I ask you, sir; whether that is the document you refer to. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft Seeley Exhibit No. 5? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You reviewed it? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; on March 28, 1962. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with Seeley Exhibit No. 5 +other than the fact that you just read it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why would you be reading it? + +Mr. SEELEY. The item was referred to, a copy of this item was referred +to Miss Knight. It was, in turn, referred to the Legal Division, and +then in turn referred to the Security Branch of the Legal Division. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you take any action with respect to it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not, other than to note that I had read it +and initialed it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did the fact that he had originally stated that he had +information as a radar operator in the Marine Corps which he would make +available to the Soviet Union--did that in any way raise in your mind a +security problem? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I thought that this certainly raised a doubt. He +had originally, I think, way back had made some similar type statement. +Here he made the statement, "Oswald stated he had never in fact been +subjected to any questioning or briefing by the Soviet authorities +concerning his life or experiences prior to entering the Soviet Union, +and never provided such information to any Soviet organ." I thought +that certainly there were two statements by him. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I note on the copy you have there is a red check right +beside the line which I read. Did you place that red check on there? + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't think so, sir. It looks like--I think I had a +regular pencil, and I think I would have done it with a pencil. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Merely because a person who had attempted to defect now +says when he is trying to get back into the country, "I really didn't +tell the Soviets anything," that wouldn't completely satisfy you that +maybe he hadn't, would it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; but I had no information that he had in fact done +so. He had just made a statement that he would. I think that was his +original statement. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't do anything other than read Seeley Exhibit +No. 5? + +Mr. SEELEY. That is right, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. When was the next occasion you had anything to do with the +file? + +Mr. SEELEY. The next concerns Item X-7, which is a memorandum from +Robert D. Johnson to William O. Boswell, dated May 4, 1962. + +Mr. COLEMAN. We have marked that as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, and +identified as a memorandum from Robert D. Johnson to William O. +Boswell, dated May 4, 1962. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 6 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft this memorandum? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What did you have to do with it? You just read it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I signed it in Mr. Johnson's stead, to send it on +its way to Mr. Boswell. + +Mr. COLEMAN. In effect, you said that based upon the evidence and +information of record, that Oswald had not expatriated himself under +the pertinent laws of the United States? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you review the file before you wrote that memorandum? + +Mr. SEELEY. I didn't write the memorandum. Before I signed it? + +Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't have any recollection of it. I presume the file was +with the memorandum. That is in the normal course of business, that +would be the way it was handled. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you don't have any independent recollection of whether +you checked through the file to see whether---- + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me who wrote the memorandum from looking at +the initials? + +Mr. SEELEY. I think it was a Mrs. Abboud. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you discuss it with her before? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. This came from the citizenship area. +She is in the citizenship area. + +Mr. COLEMAN. If they prepare a memorandum for your signature, just +merely because somebody in the citizenship area drafts it doesn't mean +that you sign it, does it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; it does not. I would imagine, although I don't +have any recollection, that I did look into the file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Is it fair to say that you would not just initial it +merely because somebody else had drafted it? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And normally you would look through the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; in the normal course of business I would look at +the file--see what my own conclusion was. + +Mr. COLEMAN. After you drafted or after you initialed the memorandum +which has been marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, what was the next +occasion you had to look at the Oswald file? + +Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion concerned the two items that are +identified as X-5. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 7 a photostatic copy +of an article which appeared in the Washington Post on Saturday, June +9, 1962, and also attached is a reference slip. + +(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 7 for +identification.) + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are they the two items that you refer to? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, I take it you just read this and put it in the file. + +Mr. SEELEY. I would presume that I cut this article out. I see that it +is my printing on the side there where it says "Oswald, Lee Harvey" on +the right-hand side. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That is your printing? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; and I would presume that I saw the article in the +newspaper, cut it out and brought it to be filed with this case. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I show you a sheet which has the word "Refusal" +Commission Exhibit No. 962, and ask you whether that hand printing that +appears there is your printing, too? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; that is not. I have looked at that. It doesn't +look like mine. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you put this newspaper article in the file, did +you have anything else to do with the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes; I sent this item, this is CS, these items to our +Special Services, Miss Waters. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know what she did? + +Mr. SEELEY. No; I don't. I have no recollection. I see that it was as +requested. It may have been a telephone request. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything else to do with the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What was that? + +Mr. SEELEY. That was on October 22, 1963. + +Mr. COLEMAN. What occasioned your looking at the file on October 22, +1963? + +Mr. SEELEY. I am looking right now at State Department Exhibit X-3. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And what occasioned your looking at the file on October +22, 1963? + +Mr. SEELEY. It was the transmittal from INR of the Department +transmitting a secret--well, I know what it is, a CIA document, +telegram, to the Passport Office. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Can you recall what the CIA telegram said? + +Mr. SEELEY. The telegram said in effect that Lee Oswald had appeared +or had contacted, I believe was the word, the Soviet Embassy in Mexico +City in October 1963. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, did the telegram also indicate that Oswald was the +person who in 1959 had attempted to defect? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Now, when you got the telegram on your desk, did you also +get the file with it? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; the passport file. + +Mr. COLEMAN. That came to you at the same time, or did you get the +telegram and then send for the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. I had the whole thing. I am morally certain on this, that +I had the whole file. I can tell by the reconstruction on this. Mr. +Ritchie and myself have discussed this. We are both sure how this went +about. + +Do you want me to give this reconstruction? + +Mr. COLEMAN. You can, if you wish to; yes. + +Mr. SEELEY. I notice that there was a little note. "Mr. Anderson pull +previous." "Previous" means to pull the file, whatever file there is. +This was on October 17. The file was pulled according to our records in +our office on October 17 or 18, I forget the exact date. It was within +a day or so thereafter this. And I presume that this was first reviewed +by Mr. Ritchie and then reviewed by myself. + +Mr. COLEMAN. When you pulled the file which is the State Department +file X---- + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you send for the security file? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why wouldn't you send for the security file if you get +a telegram from a security agency saying that the gentleman who was +down at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City is the same guy who in 1959 +attempted to defect? + +Mr. SEELEY. I looked at this report strictly from a passport office +point of view. The significance which, of course, might have great +intelligence significance, had little or no significance insofar as any +action that we would take in the Passport Office is concerned. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why would that be, sir? + +Mr. SEELEY. Well, we have to have some basis under our regulations to +take any action. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I mean why, if you get information which you can +immediately realize may have intelligence significance, why wouldn't +you look at it from a point of view of intelligence? + +Mr. SEELEY. Well, I am working for the Passport Office. Certainly, if +I saw something that I could do something about, I would take whatever +action I thought was necessary. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Why didn't you, for example, write a letter to the FBI +saying that this fellow is down in Mexico City, are you interested, or +do you want to see the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. Well, I would say the probability is that a copy of this +was apparently furnished to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you noted that, I take it, at the time of reviewing +the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. I have no independent recollection that I did. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But the fair assumption is that you did? + +Mr. SEELEY. I would assume that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that is also the reason why you didn't notify +the CIA, because the telegram had come from the CIA? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes; from the CIA. + +Mr. COLEMAN. When you looked at the file, did you know or were you +aware after looking at the file that Oswald in June 1963 had been +issued a passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. I presume I was. The passport is the next item there, and I +am sure that I looked at it and saw that he did have a passport. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you after you looked at it say to yourself "can we +revoke this passport?" + +Mr. SEELEY. I am sure that is why I looked at it. I am sure of that, +Mr. Coleman, that I looked at it with that view in mind, if there was +any action to be taken of that sort. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that he had defected or attempted to defect +in 1959? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that when he attempted to defect that he +had indicated that he was going to pass some radar information to the +Russians if they gave him citizenship? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that the Soviet desk had indicated in 1961 or +1962 that it would be to the interests of the United States to get him +out of Russia and back to the United States? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you note in his passport application for his 1963 +passport that he indicated that one of the countries that he intended +to travel to was Russia? + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't have an independent recollection of that. I presume +I did note that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you are saying with all that information that you +would look at that file, I take it you did it on October 22? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Read it and just put it back and did nothing about it? + +Mr. SEELEY. I did nothing about it other than to note the fact that I +had read the telegram. + +Mr. COLEMAN. All I am saying, just asking for your best recollection---- + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I realize you did nothing, but wouldn't that cause you +to at least do something, to talk to somebody and say, "Can we do +something about this?" + +Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Ritchie and I undoubtedly talked about this, or at +least we both saw it. I was well aware of the file. But there was +no particular passport significance to the fact that a man shows up +down at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. He was married to a Soviet +citizen. I think there is an indication somewhere she was supposed to +report or something. I don't know what the score was on that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But the problem is, sir, that---- + +Mr. SEELEY. But even if she was to report, I don't get the significance +of an individual appearing at a Soviet Embassy, either here or anywhere +else in the world, by itself meaning anything insofar as passports is +concerned. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, the problem is, if there is a problem, that on +June 24, 1963, when Mr. Oswald applied for his passport, the State +Department issued it routinely because under the lookout system there +was nothing on Oswald, so, therefore, it went out the next day. + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And we think, from what we know, that as of June 24 or 25 +no one looked at the file, so, therefore, there is no reason why the +passport wouldn't go out. + +Mr. SEELEY. I would presume from looking at this file, that that is +absolutely correct. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But our problem is that if on June 24 or June 25 someone +had looked at the file, would you have issued the passport based upon +what was in the file as of June 24 or 25, or would you have at least +talked to people to see whether some action should be taken? + +Mr. SEELEY. If I had seen this application on June 24 or 25, before it +had been issued, I think I probably would have discussed it. But that +would have been the end of it. We have no basis upon which to deny him +or hold up his passport. There would have been a discussion. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Are you saying, then, it is your opinion that after +reviewing the file that if the request for a passport had come in and +you had looked at the file before the passport was issued, there was no +regulation or legal basis on which you could refuse him a passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. That is correct. That is absolutely correct. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And, therefore, I take it then, that the only additional +information you got in the October CIA telegram was that he was in +Mexico City, and he had visited the Russian Embassy in Mexico City. + +Mr. SEELEY. That is correct. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And it is your position that he had the right to go back +to Russia if he wanted to go anyway; is that correct? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And so, therefore, there is nothing that you could have +done about it? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Did you make any memorandum or any memoranda when you +looked at the file in October 1963? + +Mr. SEELEY. Aside from this notation which is in my handwriting, which +says "Noted CHS 10-22-63" that is the extent of the documentation that +I gave to them. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But you do say you had some discussions with the other +gentlemen that looked at the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. I don't have a recollection. I don't know whether Mr. +Ritchie does. I don't believe he does either, but the fact that we both +had it, he may have passed it to me. You have to get this in context. +We have hundreds of these cases. This is one case out of hundreds. + +I am surprised that I have got any recollection, but I do have some, +as I mentioned before in my testimony here, that I did have some +recollection of it. + +Mr. COLEMAN. No one called you and said, "Well, look, let him have the +passport, don't do anything about it," I take it? + +Mr. SEELEY. Oh, no, sir. At the time the passport was issued, it was +issued. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But I mean when you got the telegram, nobody called you +and said, "Look, just skip it. Let him have the passport." + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. "Don't do anything about it"? + +Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. All the action you took, you took independently? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; as my own independent action. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I take it if faced with the situation again, knowing only +what you knew on October 22, 1963, you would take the same action today? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; that is correct. There is one additional item, +and that is under our new regulations we do put a card in on a defector +or a person--I think I can give you the definition here. + +"Defectors, expatriates and repatriates whose activities or background +demand further inquiry prior to issuance of passport facilities." + +I presume that under this criteria, in fact I know under this criteria +that Oswald would have a card placed against him today. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Is it your opinion as assistant legal counsel to the +Passport Office that you still in the final analysis couldn't deny him +the passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. That is definite. + +Mr. COLEMAN. And you would have to give it to him? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Has there been any other case of a defector where you have +actually issued him another passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. We have issued passports to defectors, at least one that I +know of, and I think we have furnished a report on that. + +Mr. COLEMAN. You say there is a case of another defector? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; in connection with the answer to this question, +we did a research job on a list of defectors which had been furnished +to the Department of State by the Department of Defense, and our search +disclosed that only one of these individuals, a Paul David Wilson, had +applied for passport facilities since his return to the United States, +and he was issued a passport. + +Mr. COLEMAN. To go where, sir? + +Mr. SEELEY. To visit Mexico, Colombia, South America, and was uncertain +of others. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Was that done routinely or was that done after looking at +his file? + +Mr. SEELEY. My recollection of this, that this was a routine issuance +of a passport to a person on whom we had no information. + +Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, this was another case where because you +didn't have a lookout card---- + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Nobody ever looked at the file? + +Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; well, there was no file. We have no file on this +man other than his name. The Passport Office has no file on this man, +Paul David Wilson. + +Mr. COLEMAN. But there has been no case where you had a file, you knew +he had defected, and then applied for another passport and before you +issued the second passport you had to make a decision as to whether you +could refuse to issue him a passport? + +Mr. SEELEY. None to my knowledge. + +Mr. COLEMAN. I have no further questions, unless you have something +else you would want to say. + +Mr. SEELEY. I have nothing further, Mr. Coleman. I will be glad to help +all I can. That is all I can say. + +Mr. COLEMAN. Thank you for coming over. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS FELDSOTT + +The following affidavit was executed by Louis Feldsott on July 23, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of Rockland, ss_: + +I, Louis Feldsott, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am the President of Crescent Firearms, Inc., 2 West 37th Street, +New York 18, New York. + +2. On November 22, 1963, the F.B.I. contacted me and asked if Crescent +Firearms, Inc., had any records concerning the sale of an Italian made +6.5 m/m rifle with the serial number C 2766. + +3. I was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which +indicated that the weapon had been sold to Kleins' Sporting Goods, +Inc., Chicago, Illinois on June 18, 1962. I conveyed this information +to the F.B.I. during the evening of November 22, 1963. + +4. Further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of +the weapon have been turned over to the F.B.I. + +Signed the 23d day of July 1964. + + (S) Louis Feldsott, + LOUIS FELDSOTT. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF J. PHILIP LUX + +The following affidavit was executed by J. Philip Lux on July 22, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, J. Philip Lux, being duly sworn say: + +1. I am now Store Manager at the H. L. Green Company, 1623 Main Street, +Dallas, Texas. I was not employed by the H. L. Green Company in 1963. + +2. H. L. Green Company records show that in 1963, the Company had in +stock and sold Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were surpluses from World War +II. + +3. The records also reflect the fact that the H. L. Green Company +received its supply of Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms +Company, New York City. + +4. A review of the records has failed to reflect any record of a 6.5 mm +rifle with Serial No. C2766. + +5. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company is the only company in +Dallas handling any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles. + +Signed the 22d day of July 1964. + + (S) J. Philip Lux, + J. PHILIP LUX. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN + +The following affidavit was executed by Howard Leslie Brennan on May 7, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Howard Leslie Brennan, being first duly sworn, do upon oath depose +and state: + +On or about March 24, 1964, I testified in Washington, D.C., before +the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. +In that connection I testified as to the reasons why I declined on +November 22, 1963, to give positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald +as the man I saw firing a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth +floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. + +Included in these reasons at pages 3629 and 3630 of Volume 28 of the +transcript of the Commission proceedings are the following reasons: + +"And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, +might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that +he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country +immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret +Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch +with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man +didn't get loose." + +"... "Because I had already more or less give a detailed description of +the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, +and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and +all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eye witness, that +anything could happen to me or my family." + +I have also been advised that on page 3595 of Volume 28 of the +transcript of the Commission proceedings, the following appears: + +"Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family, and +yourself? + +"Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a +Communist activity, and I felt like there had been more than one eye +witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye witness, +my family or I, either one, might not be safe." + +I hereby state that this is a court reporter's error and that in truth +and in fact my answer to the question was: + +"Mr. BRENNAN: I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a +Communist activity, and I felt like there _hadn't_ been more than +one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye +witness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe." + +Signed the 7th day of May 1964. + + (S) Howard Leslie Brennan. + HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ALBERT C. YEARGAN, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., on July +21, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., 1922 Mayflower Drive, Dallas, Texas, being +duly sworn say: + +1. I was the Sporting Goods Department Manager at the H. L. Green +Company, 1623 Main Street, Dallas, Texas, from the Summer of 1963 until +March 13, 1964. I am now employed by Smitty's Sporting Goods, 111 West +Jefferson Avenue, Dallas, Texas. + +2. When I worked for the H. L. Green Company, it had in stock and was +offering for sale a large number of Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were +surpluses from World War II. + +3. On November 22, 1963, FBI Agents, Secret Service Agents, and I +examined all sales records and receipt records concerning Italian 6.5 +mm rifles. + +4. The records showed that the H. L. Green Company obtained its supply +of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms Company in +New York City. + +5. A review of all of the records failed to reflect any record of sale +of a 6.5 mm rifle with the Serial Number C2766. + +6. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company was at that time the only +Company in Dallas that handled any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm +rifles. + +Signed the 21st day of July 1964. + + (S) Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., + ALBERT C. YEARGAN, Jr. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS WEINSTOCK + +The following affidavit was executed by Louis Weinstock on May 20, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of New York, ss_: + +Louis Weinstock, being duly sworn, says: + +1. On or about December 19, 1962, I was General Manager of "The +Worker," the address of which is 23 West 26 Street. New York 11, New +York. On or about December 19, 1962, I wrote the attached letter on the +letterhead of "The Worker" addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, Post Office +Box 2915, Dallas, Texas, and sent or caused such letter to be sent to +Mr. Oswald. I have initialed that letter immediately below the initials +"WJL" appearing thereon for the purpose of identifying it as Weinstock +Exhibit No. 1. + +2. The letter refers to certain "blow ups" which were apparently sent +to "The Worker" by Mr. Oswald. I described those "blow ups" in my +letter as "poster like blow ups" and indicated that they would be "most +useful at newsstands and other public places to call the attention of +newspaper readers that 'The Worker' is available." + +3. While my recollection is not entirely clear concerning the nature +of the "blow ups" which Oswald had apparently sent to "The Worker," it +appears from the description of such "blow ups" in my letter that they +must have consisted of the item which has been marked as Exhibit 5A in +the deposition of Mr. Arnold S. Johnson, which Exhibit, as indicated in +Mr. Johnson's testimony, was obtained from the files of "The Worker" +and turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Mr. Johnson's +counsel. + +4. Aside from the attached letter of December 19, 1962. I know of no +other correspondence which I may have written to Lee Harvey Oswald and +I do not recall receiving anything from him other than the material +described in this affidavit. + +Signed the 20th day of May 1964. + + (S) Louis Weinstock, + LOUIS WEINSTOCK. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF VINCENT T. LEE + +The following affidavit was executed by Vincent T. Lee on May 20, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of New York, ss_: + +Vincent T. Lee, being duly sworn says: + +1. My name is Vincent T. Lee. I reside at 37-1/2 St. Mark's Place, New +York, New York. I was formerly the National Director for the Fair Play +for Cuba Committee. I make this affidavit to supplement the testimony +which I gave to the above Commission on April 17, 1964. + +2. I have examined the attached membership card of the Fair Play for +Cuba Committee and state that it is an authentic membership card of +that organization and that it bears my signature.[B] + +3. I sent that card or caused it to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald on or +about May 29, 1963. + +4. I have initialed the attached card under the initials WJL which +appear on the card for the purposes of identification of that card in +the record of the proceedings of the above Commission. + +Signed the 20th day of May 1964. + + (S) Vincent T. Lee, + VINCENT T. LEE. + + [B] The FPCC membership card referred to in the above affidavit + is Commission Exhibit No. 828. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF FARRELL DOBBS + +The following affidavit was executed by Farrell Dobbs on June 4, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of New York, ss_: + +I, Farrell Dobbs, being duly sworn, depose and say: + +1. I have read the twenty-six page transcript of the examination of me +in a proceeding of the Commission to Report upon the Assassination of +President John F. Kennedy, held at New York, N.Y., on April 17, 1964, +and find it accurate with the exception of the corrections noted and +initialled by me on pages 1, 6, & 7. + +2. I have read the original of a letter dated November 5, 1962, to Mr. +Lee H. Oswald from Farrell Dobbs, and have initialled it so that it may +be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 11 for the typewritten copy shown me +on April 17, 1964.[C] I have no doubt that it is a letter I wrote, and +the signature is mine. + +3. I have initialled the original of a letter dated December 9, +1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald, signed "Bob Chester," so that it may be +substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 12 for the typewritten copy shown me on +April 17, 1964. + +4. As requested on pages 19-20, I have made a further search of our +files for the letter and reproductions from Lee H. Oswald referred to +in the Bob Chester letter but have found no record of them. Further, +I have discussed this matter with Mr. Chester and he advises me +that he has had a vague recollection that the reproductions were of +headlines from the _Militant_ but has no further recollection of any +correspondence with Lee H. Oswald. + +5. As requested on page 21, I have made a further search for a copy of +R. Watts Exhibit 13 and for the letter and clipping referred to in it +as from Lee H. Oswald but have been unable to find any such material in +our files. + +6. As requested in J. Lee Rankin's letter to Mr. Rowland Watts dated +May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of the Young Socialist Alliance +and am advised that its files have been searched and that its +representatives have found no record that Lee H. Oswald's name was ever +referred to it, nor does it have any record of ever having had anything +in its files from, to, or concerning Lee H. Oswald. + +7. In pursuance of the information supplied in Mr. Rankin's letter to +Mr. Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of _The Militant_ +and have had its files further searched. There is no photograph of Lee +Harvey Oswald, with or without a rifle, in its files (other than a +clipping from the daily press after he was taken into custody). I am +confident no photograph of him was ever received prior to President +Kennedy's assassination. + +8. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have submitted to you +all of the material in the files of the Socialist Workers Party, _The +Militant_, and Pioneer Publishers, concerning Lee Harvey Oswald, and I +have no further material or information concerning him. + +Signed the 4th day of June 1964. + + (S) Farrell Dobbs, + FARRELL DOBBS. + + [C] Since all of the Rowland Watts Exhibits have been + redesignated as Farrell Dobbs Exhibits, R. Watts Exhibits + Nos. 11, 12, and 13 referred to in the above affidavit have + been marked Farrell Dobbs Exhibits Nos. 11, 12, and 13, + respectively. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF VIRGINIA GRAY + +The following affidavit was executed by Virginia Gray on May 28, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, + _County of Durham, ss_: + +Virginia Gray, being duly sworn says: + +1. My name is Virginia Gray. I am the Assistant Curator of Manuscripts +of the Duke University Library, Durham, North Carolina, (the Library) +and the person most familiar with the records of the Socialist Party of +America which are now in the possession of the Library. + +2. The records of the Library reflect that it purchased the original +official records of the Socialist Party of America covering the period +from 1900 to 1938 from Leon Kramer, a New York dealer in Leftist +literature. Since the time of that original purchase the Library has +become the unofficial repository for files of the Socialist Party +of America and periodically acquires the inactive records of that +organization. + +3. On or about January 2, 1959 the Library acquired certain records +of the Socialist Party of America from Mr. Stephen Siteman, Executive +Secretary of that Party, 112 East 19th Street, New York, New York. + +4. A letter dated October 3, 1956 addressed "Dear Sirs" from Lee Oswald +and an advertisement coupon of "The Socialist Call", photostatic copies +of which are attached to this affidavit, were found in those materials +while they were being processed by the Library.[D] + +5. The Library has received additional materials from the Socialist +Party of America and is presently processing such materials. As of +the date of this affidavit, however, the only materials relating to +Lee Harvey Oswald which have been found amongst the records of the +Socialist Party of America presently in the possession of the Library +are those of which photostatic copies are attached. + +Signed the 28th day of May 1964. + + (S) Virginia Gray, + (Mrs.) VIRGINIA GRAY. + + [D] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit + have been marked Gray Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF DR. ALBERT F. STAPLES + +The following affidavit was executed by Dr. Albert F. Staples on May +26, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +Dr. Albert F. Staples, being duly sworn says: + +1. My name is Albert F. Staples. I reside at 6056 Ellsworth Street, +Dallas, Texas. I am a dentist at the Baylor University College of +Dentistry and am familiar with the records in possession of the College +relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +2. I have caused a search of the files of the Baylor University College +of Dentistry which reveals a file on Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. The +foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. To the best of +my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to Mrs. Lee +Harvey Oswald in the possession or control of the Baylor University +College of Dentistry. Accordingly under my supervision photostatic +copies[E] have been made of this entire file, such copies being +attached to this affidavit. + +3. On information and belief the attached photostatic copies are of the +entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey +Oswald in the possession and control of the Baylor University Dental +Clinic. + +Signed the 26th day of May 1964. + + (S) Dr. Albert F. Staples, + Dr. ALBERT F. STAPLES. + + [E] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit + have been marked Staples Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY + +The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of Broome, ss_: + +I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being +duly sworn say: + +1. In 1961 I was a sophomore at the University of Michigan. In March of +1961, I was a member of the University of Michigan band which toured +Russia and the Near East. + +2. We arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R. from Moscow on March 10, 1961. +While in Minsk, the band gave some concerts at the Minsk Polytechnic +Institute. We stayed in a hotel in Minsk. We left Minsk on March 14 and +proceeded to Kiev, U.S.S.R. + +3. There was an evening in Minsk when members of the band were divided +into small groups, each of which was assigned a Russian interpreter, +for the purpose of going on a tour of the facilities of the Minsk +Polytechnic Institute. + +4. Near the conclusion of this tour, at about 10:00 p.m., when the band +members were boarding a bus, I became surrounded by Russian students +who were asking me questions. Although one student was interpreting I +was having difficulty communicating with them. + +5. At this point, an American approached and offered to act as an +interpreter. I accepted the offer. While I never really had a chance +to talk with him, he mentioned that he was an ex-Marine from Texas. +Sometimes he spoke with a Texas accent and at other times he spoke with +an English accent. Somehow I got the impression that he was working in +Russia and that he never intended to return to the United States. + +6. This American appeared well dressed. I think he wore a camel hair +coat and possibly a tie. He did not indicate if he had been at the +concert. + +7. After just a few minutes of further questions from the Russian +students, with the American interpreting, I boarded the bus. I never +again saw nor heard from this individual. I noted in my diary something +about the incident, and I wrote that this American seemed to be a +crackpot. I did not meet any other Americans in Minsk. + +8. I have seen pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspaper, and the +individual I saw in Minsk very much resembles Oswald as pictured. I +recall that the person I saw seemed to have more hair and was heavier +than Lee Harvey Oswald as pictured in the newspapers. + +9. Except possibly for this one occasion in Minsk, I never saw nor +communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Signed the 20th day of July 1964. + + (S) Katherine Mallory, + KATHERINE MALLORY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY + +The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of Broome, ss_: + +I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being +duly sworn say: + +Following my telephone interview on July 10, 1964 with Mr. Richard +Mosk, I rechecked my diary of the University of Michigan Symphony Band +Tour and letters which I sent to my parents. Therefore, I append the +following minor corrections of statements in the interest of being as +accurate as I can. + +Statements 3, 4, and 5. I made no mention of the tour of the Institute +and therefore cannot verify the details of the arrangement, i.e., small +groups. However, I recall that the tour preceded the talent show. The +following is a statement from my diary; "Tonight the students at the +Bilo (sic) Russian (White Russian) Polytechnic Institute put on a +talent show for us ... (description of performance).... Afterward Jerry +Anderson and I missed getting out with our crowd and we were mobbed +by the students. I met a boy from Texas (now a Russian citizen) who +translated questions and answers for me." In a letter to my parents +dated March 17, 1961, "The first night we were there, the students of +the Polytechnic Institute gave us a reception and put on a very nice +talent show. Afterwards, we all were mobbed by the students. I met a +young man probably about 26 who is from Texas but after the war he +became a citizen of Minsk. It was rather weird meeting an ex-American +but he did come in handy as an interpreter for me and the other +students I was talking to." + +Statement 7. While I am sure that in conversations about this incident +I applied term "crackpot" I did not note it in my diary. + +All other statements prepared on the basis of the telephone interview +are true. + +Signed the 20th day of July 1964. + + (S) Katherine Mallory, + KATHERINE MALLORY. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. MONICA KRAMER + +The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Monica Kramer on July 17, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA, + _County of Santa Barbara, ss_: + +I, Mrs. Monica Kramer, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, +being duly sworn say: + +1. In 1961, Miss Rita Naman and I took a trip to Europe which included +a visit to the Soviet Union. Miss. Naman had purchased a Singer +automobile in Great Britain and we drove through Europe and the Soviet +Union. + +2. When we were in Moscow staying at the National Hotel, we met Mrs. +Marie Hyde, who, to the best of my knowledge, presently resides in +Port Angeles, Washington. Mrs. Hyde was desirous of driving with us to +Warsaw. Such an arrangement was made. + +3. My travel notes indicate that we arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R., on +August 10. After arriving at our hotel, we were asked to take a guided +tour of Minsk. We subsequently found out that after we left the hotel, +our bags had been searched. Out Intourist Guide's name was Svetlana. + +4. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some +photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859d, +is a photograph taken by Miss Naman in Minsk on August 10, 1961. As +I recall, it was taken between 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. The building +in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of +Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture is the one +that was then owned by Miss Naman. The woman at the far left is the +Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with me, the woman standing +next to her. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a +small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know. + +5. On every occasion that we stopped while on the trip through Russia, +people would gather around the automobile and look at it. As a result, +we became accustomed to this and therefore paid little or no attention +to these people. + +6. I cannot recall these three men. I never spoke with them. It now +appears to me that the man in the middle, wearing dark trousers and a +dark, short-sleeved plaid shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose +picture I have seen in the newspapers. + +7. I recall that Miss Naman spoke with somebody in Minsk who spoke +English. They talked about records. I do not recall if this person was +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +8. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961. + +9. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated +with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Signed the 17th day of July 1964. + + (S) Mrs. Monica Kramer, + Mrs. MONICA KRAMER. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RITA NAMAN + +The following affidavit was executed by Rita Naman on July 17, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF CALIFORNIA, + _County of Santa Barbara, ss_: + +I, Rita Naman, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly +sworn say: + +1. I am in the real estate business in Santa Ynez, California, and I +live with Mrs. Monica Kramer. + +2. In 1961, Mrs. Kramer and I took a trip to Europe. I purchased an +automobile in England, and we drove it through Europe and the Soviet +Union. + +3. While in Moscow we stayed at the National Hotel. There we met Mrs. +Marie Hyde, who, as far as I know, currently resides in Port Angeles, +Washington. We arranged to drive her to Warsaw, Poland. + +4. All three of us left Moscow and travelled to Minsk, U. S. S. R. +We arrived there on August 10, 1961. After going to our hotel, I was +called by the Intourist Office and asked to go there. The official at +the Intourist Office wanted to know why I was in Russia. He appeared +hostile. I suspect that they were interested in me because in Moscow, +I had given a person who claimed to be a student a Newsweek Magazine +along with my business card. The official then insisted that Mrs. +Kramer, Mrs. Hyde, and I go on a tour of Minsk. When we returned to our +room after the tour, we found that our luggage had been searched. + +5. Our Intourist guide's name was Svetlana. We visited the Central +Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, +also labelled Commission No. 859 d, is a photograph taken by me at +this time. As I recall, it was taken about 8 or 8:30 p.m. The building +in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of +Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture was owned by +me. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be +speaking with a woman standing next to her, who is Mrs. Kramer. There +are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front +of it, all of whom I did not know. + +6. Kramer Exhibit No. 2, also labelled Commission No. 859c, is a +photograph taken by me at the same place and at about the same time; +however, I took this photograph with Mrs. Hyde's camera. In this +photograph Mrs. Hyde is at the far left with the Intourist Guide and +Mrs. Kramer. Only two men are pictured to the right of the car. + +7. I do not remember speaking to any of the men pictured in Kramer +Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. I was so disturbed by the earlier +interview with the Intourist Guide official, that I cannot remember +much of what happened thereafter. + +8. I do recall that after this photograph was taken, I went to a nearby +record store. When I left the store, a man spoke to me in an American +accent and asked me about my car. He asked how many miles to the gallon +it travelled. I do not recall if this man was the same one pictured in +Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. + +9. The man appearing in these photographs, wearing dark trousers and a +dark, short-sleeved, check shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose +picture I have seen in the newspapers. + +10. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor +communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +11. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961. + +Signed the 17th day of July 1964. + + (S) Rita Naman, + RITA NAMAN. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND AND MERYL McFARLAND + +The following affidavit was executed by John Bryan McFarland and Meryl +McFarland on May 28, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, + _County of Lancaster, City of Liverpool, + Consulate of the United States of America, ss_: + +Before me Wilfred V. Duke, Consul of the United States of America, duly +commissioned and qualified, personally came John Bryan McFarland and +Meryl McFarland, of 7a Riversdale Road, Liverpool, 19, England, who +being duly sworn, depose and say that: + +Q. When and where did you board the bus for Mexico City? + +A. We boarded the Continental Trailways bus at Jackson, Mississippi, +and traveled via connecting buses to Mexico City where we arrived +September 27, 1963. + +Q. When and where did you first see the man later identified as Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +A. We changed buses at Houston, Texas, at 2:00 a.m. September 26th and +it was probably about 6:00 a.m. after it became light that we first saw +him. + +Q. What reason did Oswald give for traveling to Mexico? + +A. He stated that he was en route to Cuba and that he could not travel +there from the United States as it was against the law. + +Q. Did you see Oswald speaking to any other persons? + +A. Yes. We observed him conversing occasionally with two young +Australian women who boarded the bus on the evening of September 26th +at Monterrey, Mexico. He also conversed occasionally with an elderly +man who sat in the seat next to him for a time. + +Q. When did it first occur to you that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man +you had met on the bus? + +A. When we saw his pictures in the newspapers. + +Q. How many suitcases was Oswald carrying when he boarded the bus at +Houston, Texas, or any other time? + +A. We did not see him carrying any suitcases at any time. + +Q. Did Oswald check any luggage with the bus company so it would have +been carried underneath the bus in the baggage compartment? + +A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus +company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him +was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some +luggage. + +Q. What kind of luggage was he carrying? + +A. We did not notice but presume he must have been carrying some hand +luggage. + +Q. Did he check any suitcases or other packages at a place en route to +Mexico City or otherwise dispose of them? + +A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus +company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him +was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some +luggage. + +Q. What kind of clothing was he wearing? + +A. As far as we recollect, ordinary slacks and, a more definite +recollection, a sort of zipper jerkin. + +Q. Did he mention any names or places either in the United States or +Mexico, in any connection whatever? + +A. Only New Orleans, whence he said he had come. In the course of +conversation, we worked out that he must have left New Orleans at about +the same time we had left Jackson, Mississippi, i.e. 2:00 p.m. on +Wednesday, September 25th, 1963. + +Q. Did he show you any documents, such as passport or Fair Play for +Cuba Committee Card, or letters, newspaper clippings or other similar +material? If so, describe them as fully as possible. + +A. We saw no document, but he said he was the secretary of the New +Orleans branch of the Fair Play for Cuba Organization, and that he was +on his way to Cuba to see Castro if he could. We saw him at the next +table to ourselves in the Customs Shed at Laredo, but did not notice +his passport or tourist card. + +Signed the 28th day of May 1964. + + (S) J. B. McFarland, + JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND. + (S) Meryl McFarland, + MERYL McFARLAND. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PAMELA MUMFORD + +The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19, +1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. +Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Miss Mumford was +accompanied by her attorney, Mr. C. C. Dillavou. + + +Pamela Mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly +sworn, was examined and testified as follows: + +Mr. BALL. You received a letter, didn't you, from Mr. Rankin, as +counsel for the Commission, advising you that we would request you to +give your deposition? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that's right. + +Mr. BALL. And you also received a copy of the joint resolution of +the Congress, didn't you, authorizing the Commission to proceed to +investigate the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you willingly give your deposition today, do you not? + +Miss MUMFORD. I do. + +Mr. BALL. To tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in +this investigation? + +Miss MUMFORD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Your name is Pamela Mumford? + +Miss MUMFORD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Miss MUMFORD. 153 North New Hampshire Avenue, Los Angeles 4. + +Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? + +Miss MUMFORD. Secretary. + +Mr. BALL. A legal secretary? + +Miss MUMFORD. Legal secretary. + +Mr. BALL. And you work for the firm of Dillavou & Cox, do you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is in a building at 6th and Grand, Los Angeles, Calif.? + +Miss MUMFORD. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, because of the fact that you will not appear before the +Commission, and the members of the Commission will have to read this +deposition, they would like to know something about you: Where you were +born, your education. So, just go ahead and tell me all you can about +yourself. + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, I was born in the Fiji Islands in 1941, and my +father was transferred to Australia in 1951. I was brought up and went +to school in Australia until 1961. + +And then I traveled to England, where I worked for a period of a year. +I went to Europe and then I obtained a working visa to come to the +United States. + +I worked in New York for 8 months and then my friend and I traveled +through the United States and Mexico on our way to Los Angeles where we +intended to remain. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what was your friend's name? + +Miss MUMFORD. Patricia Winston. + +Mr. BALL. And she left Australia with you, did she? + +Miss MUMFORD. She left with me, yes. We had been traveling together for +2 years. And she also made the journey through the States and through +Mexico with me. That takes us up to Los Angeles. + +Mr. BALL. When did you arrive in Los Angeles? + +Miss MUMFORD. In the first week of November 1963. + +Mr. BALL. Is Patricia Winston a legal secretary also? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; Patricia is an occupational therapist, who was also +born in the Fiji Islands and raised in Australia. Our families were +friends. + +And she was unable to obtain work in California owing to certain +California laws. She had to sit for some exam to enable her to work +here. + +So, finally, she returned home to Australia in January, mid-January. +And she is there now. + +Mr. BALL. As of 1964? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How old is Patricia Winston? + +Miss MUMFORD. She is 23. + +Mr. BALL. You took a trip into Mexico last fall, didn't you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you travel from New York to Mexico? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, we traveled by bus on a scheme which allowed us +to travel on Trailways buses for a period of 3 months for a certain +amount. We just got on and off at various places we wanted to see: For +instance, Washington, D.C.; Miami, where we stayed a week; then we went +across to New Orleans, down through Texas to Laredo, and from Laredo we +crossed the border also by bus and went to Monterrey. + +We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at +Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you buy your ticket to Mexico? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to +travel in the States, not in Mexico. + +So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to +stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City. + +Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket? + +Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called +Transporter del Norte. + +Mr. BALL. And did you buy the bus ticket in Laredo at the Trailways bus +depot? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What date did you buy the bus ticket? + +Miss MUMFORD. It must have been September 25. + +Mr. BALL. And you left Laredo at what time? + +Miss MUMFORD. Early September the 26th. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't you leave the bus depot at Laredo on September 25th, +about 10 o'clock in the morning, or was it September 26? + +Miss MUMFORD. September 26. Now, hold on. We had one day in Monterrey +and one night in Monterrey. We left Monterrey, I know, on the night of +September 26 at 7:30 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. And you had come down to Monterrey from Laredo the day +before, hadn't you? + +Miss MUMFORD. The day before, yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on the way from Laredo to Monterrey you didn't see +Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You saw him on a bus that left Monterrey? + +Miss MUMFORD. That left Monterrey. But he had traveled from Laredo on +that same bus. + +Mr. BALL. How do you know that? + +Miss MUMFORD. He told us. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of +September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know? + +Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte. + +Mr. BALL. And were there the same accommodations for all travelers? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; there were. There were four seats in the front that +were occupied by English-speaking people. But, having got on so late in +the journey, we were taken down to the back to sit with the Mexicans. +And we were the only English-speaking people at the back of the bus. + +Mr. BALL. All others were Mexican-speaking? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, who were the English-speaking people that you mentioned? +Will you describe them? + +Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down +to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life. + +There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I +should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and +off in Mexico for 25 years. + +Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and +myself. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you first boarded the bus did you speak to the +English-speaking people? + +Miss MUMFORD. We got on and Oswald heard Patricia and I talking. And we +had two heavy overnight bags, and he told us later that he had turned +to his companion, who was the middle-aged English gentleman, and said, +"I wonder how you say 'How can I help you' in Spanish", which gave us +the opinion later that he couldn't speak the language: couldn't speak +Spanish. + +He took us for two Spanish girls, I guess, and was going to help us +with our luggage. + +Mr. BALL. Did he help you with your luggage? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You went on to the back of the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't say anything to the four English-speaking people +when you first got on the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. And they didn't speak to you? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first speak to any of these four? + +Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat +and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us. + +Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And while it was en route? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say to you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, he said that he had heard us speaking English and +wondered where we came from. + +He then told us the story of how he had thought we were Mexican and was +going to help us if he could speak the language. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? Can you tell me his language as close as you +can? + +Miss MUMFORD. No, I can't really put it into his words; not at that +stage. He then proceeded to tell us about himself. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say? + +Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing +he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to +know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. + +He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. + +And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, +and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very +much like to go to Australia. + +He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had +ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a +fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there. + +And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble +getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in +Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying. + +At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; +some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at +all. But we noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand. + +We made about three stops or four stops every 2 or 3 hours, and he +didn't speak to us during these stops. We got speaking to the other +British people. + +Mr. BALL. Did he speak to you again after that time that he first came +back? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; oh, about 2 hours before we arrived in Mexico City +he asked us whether we had accommodations arranged there. And we said +no, we had a vague idea from a book called "Mexico on Five Dollars a +Day" where we were going to stay. + +And he suggested that on previous trips to Mexico City he had stayed +at a place called the Hotel Cuba, and he recommended it for clean and +cheap living. + +And he then made a crack that he wasn't suggesting the Hotel Cuba +because he was going to be there; he just suggested it to help us. + +And we decided that we wouldn't take him up on his suggestion; that we +would go our own way. + +Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to +us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus +and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of +the room. + +Mr. BALL. At the bus station? + +Miss MUMFORD. At the bus station. And we left by taxi. + +Mr. BALL. Then you had two conversations with him? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Or more? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; two. During the trip I engaged the middle-aged +English gentleman in conversation, asking him about the weather, and +what it was like usually. And he said, "The young man traveling beside +me has traveled to Mexico also. Why don't you talk to him?" And that +was all. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to the English gentleman; the +elderly man? + +Miss MUMFORD. Just standing outside at one of the rest stops, standing +outside waiting to board the bus. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any one of these four people as the bus was +en route, except Oswald; the four English-speaking people? + +Miss MUMFORD. Not on the bus. We did speak to the young English couple +for a while, told them where we had lived in London, and they had told +us very vaguely, I remember, that they were also traveling through the +United States, but their main aim wasn't to go to the tourist resorts +in America but to go down to Mexico. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get their names? Did they tell you their names? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't ask them their name? + +Miss. MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. When did you talk to this elderly English gentleman who was +sitting beside Oswald when you first got on the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. The only time we talked to him was at one of the rest +stops outside the bus. And I just happened to ask him about the +weather, and that was the only conversation. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else to you on the trip except that there +was a young man sitting next to him that had been in Mexico before? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. That's all he said? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About how many people were on this bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. There must have been about 14 rows on both sides, with +two people on each. About 50, 55. It was crowded. + +Mr. BALL. I have a note here of a statement you made to an agent for +the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 18th of December in which it +was reported that you estimated about 39 passengers. + +Do you recall that? Did you ever say that? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, these were conflicting reports, naturally. The FBI +questioned Patricia at our apartment and he then questioned me here +and, naturally, two people get different ideas on a bus load. + +But, it was well crowded. There were a lot of children on the bus. I +should imagine there would be--they were long, great big, long, heavy +buses. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any vacant seats when you got on? + +Miss MUMFORD. Quite a few people boarded in Monterrey. And we were a +bit frightened that we wouldn't get a seat together. But I think we +were one of the few people who got on first. + +Mr. BALL. What part of the bus did you sit in? + +Miss MUMFORD. In the middle of the bus, more towards the back than the +front. + +Mr. BALL. Did the English man ever come back while you were being +seated and speak in Spanish to any of the Mexican people? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You don't recall that the English man ever came back and +asked the Mexican people to make room for you to sit down? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. At the bus stops, you say, you did not talk to Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. He was the first off the bus and the last back on. He +had a meal at every bus stop. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, he did? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. He ate at every bus stop? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. I never saw him ordering. I took it that he didn't +speak the language, but he always managed to order himself a large +meal, because he never seemed to get it over to them what he wanted. + +Mr. BALL. What gave you the impression that he did not speak the +language? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, simply that on arriving on the bus he told us--when +we had boarded the bus he had told us that he had turned to the English +gentleman and asked "I wonder how you say 'Can I help you' in Spanish." + +Mr. BALL. You told him when he came back to talk to you that you had +had a friend travel in Russia? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you say you had mentioned her experiences. What did you +tell him about that? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, we said that she had come back and told us that +Moscow was a beautiful city and she had gathered the impression that +they were being taken on a tour and shown only what they wanted to be +shown. + +She, being a school teacher, asked a lot of questions of their female +guide, and the questions just were evaded or not answered. + +And she said she got the impression that she was told to say certain +things and nothing else. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any remark to that? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; the only remark he made on his life in Moscow was +that he had had a lot of trouble getting out. That's all he said. + +Mr. BALL. Did he make any statement at all concerning his life in the +Soviet Union; whether he had enjoyed the stay there or not? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; he gave me the impression that he was the average, +normal American citizen who had gone over there and had wanted to get +out and couldn't get out for some red tape reasons. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything or make any mention of politics? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; never. + +Mr. BALL. Did he mention anything about communism, socialism, or +anything of that sort? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; he never said anything about his political views or +even mention politics at all. + +Mr. BALL. You did see his passport, though? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How did he happen to show you this passport? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, I think it was rather to prove that he had been in +Russia. I think he was trying to find places that we hadn't been that +he had, and he just--in fact, he left us at the seat to go up and take +his passport from his traveling bag and bring it down to show us. + +Mr. BALL. Had he told you his name before that? + +Miss MUMFORD. He never mentioned his name once. + +Mr. BALL. He never did? + +Miss MUMFORD. He never introduced himself; no. + +Mr. BALL. How did you know his name? + +Miss MUMFORD. We didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice the name on the passport? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, I didn't; no. Pat says it rang a bell when the rest +of the business came up, and we recognized him on television. And she +said, when the name came through on the television, it did ring a bell +with her, but she said even then she couldn't picture that name on the +passport. + +Mr. BALL. You did see the name on the passport, did you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, yes, he must have shown it to us. I can't really +remember. + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't remember the name? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You made no note of it? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did the elderly Englishman ever make a statement to you as to +whether or not the young man sitting next to him on the bus, that is, +Oswald, had been to Mexico City before, or been to Mexico before? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Oswald must have told him he had been there numerous +times, because this Englishman did refer us, or did refer me to Oswald +and say "He has been there before. Why don't you ask him?" + +Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Mexico City or Mexico before? + +Miss MUMFORD. I think we were speaking about Mexico generally, because +we had contemplated a trip down to Acapulco, and I was interested in +the difference in temperatures. + +Mr. BALL. Was that at a bus stop? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes, outside the bus; a rest stop. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you gained some impression, didn't you, from talking to +the English man, that he had not known Oswald before? + +Miss MUMFORD. Only by his reference to Oswald as "the young man sitting +next to me." They were talking quite a lot, the four of them. + +In the first two seats were the young English couple, and directly +behind them were Oswald, sitting on the aisle, and the Englishman, +sitting near the window. And we could hear them talking a lot, and +laughing, when we were sitting in the back, wondering what was going on. + +Mr. BALL. Did you gain the impression from anything else said by the +Englishman that he was not traveling in the company of Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Nothing except that he referred to him as the young man---- + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; but they never spoke to each other on rest stops. +Oswald just went his way completely. + +Mr. BALL. When you arrived at Mexico City did the English man get off +the bus with Oswald, or at the same time when Oswald did? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. I remember Oswald was standing +completely alone in the bus station. + +Mr. BALL. What did the Englishman do? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember what he did at all. We got off the bus +and I don't remember seeing him leave the bus even. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any conversation with the English couple to +indicate that they had never before seen Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think they made any reference to him at all. + +Mr. BALL. The Federal Bureau of Investigation agent that you talked +to on the 12th of December stated this: That in talking with the +Englishman, the elderly Englishman, he said, and I will quote what he +put down, "I gather the young man sitting with me has been to Mexico +City before." + +Do you remember words like that used by the Englishman? + +Miss MUMFORD. That may have been his words. I really don't remember. +That was just the general impression I got of what he said to me. + +Mr. BALL. Now, also at that time, the agent reported that it was your +opinion that "Oswald was traveling alone, and that he had had no +previous contact with any of the English-speaking people on the bus +prior to that time." Did you tell him that? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; and that is still my opinion. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have breakfast on that morning before you got into +one of your stops? Did you have a breakfast? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? Did you notice the name of the place? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't know the name of the place. It was about 6 +a.m. in the morning and we arrived in Mexico City at about 10, so it +would have been about 4 hours before we arrived in the city. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat with Oswald at that time; eat breakfast with him? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did he eat breakfast with anyone? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember at that particular stage. Earlier in the +night, twice, I knew he ate alone. + +Mr. BALL. In the statement which the agent reported, the agent reported +his conversation with you, and he says that, "Oswald always ate alone +except for breakfast on the morning of September 27, 1963, when he ate +with the English couple." Do you remember whether Oswald ate breakfast +with the English couple? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't; no. Pat may have remembered that. I don't +remember seeing him at all in that particular restaurant. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give this young man a nickname? + +Miss MUMFORD. "Texas." + +Mr. BALL. Did you call him "Texas" to his face? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You just called him "Texas" when you---- + +Miss MUMFORD. No; we wrote home from Mexico City describing the awful +bus trip, with crying kids, et cetera, and happened to mention that +there was a young Texan and we called him "Texas." + +Mr. BALL. But you didn't call him "Texas" to his face? + +Miss MUMFORD. No, No. + +Mr. BALL. How was this boy from Texas dressed? + +Miss MUMFORD. He was dressed casually. I don't remember what color +trousers he had on. He had on a dark sweater. I know that. It was a +wool sweater, a sort of a charcoal gray color. + +When we saw him on television, being arrested or being taken down to +the Dallas County jail, Patricia was the first to recognize that that +was the same sweater. We were reluctant to believe this, of course, +at first; that we knew this man. But she said the thinning hair on +the top, the thinning, curly, wiry hair, plus the sweater that she +recognized right away, and I recognized afterwards, made us almost +certain that this was the same man. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a shirt on? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. In discussing this with Patricia +she said that she felt he had some sort of a checked shirt on, just +underneath. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't have a tie on? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Open? + +Miss MUMFORD. Open sport shirt; yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did he have on a jersey; pale-green jersey that you +noticed? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; not pale green. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have? + +Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an +overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know. + +Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really +certain on that point. + +Mr. BALL. What color was it? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat +where he was sitting? + +Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him. + +Mr. BALL. And when he left the bus in Mexico City did he carry the +luggage with him? + +Miss MUMFORD. I can't say for sure. + +Mr. BALL. When you last saw him standing in the bus depot did he have a +piece of luggage in his hand? + +Miss MUMFORD. I can't remember that either. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald tell you where he had boarded the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think he did. + +Mr. BALL. What was the name of the bus depot in Mexico City where you +last saw Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. I am not sure of that. I know the name of the bus, or I +am fairly certain of the name of the bus. But I am not sure of the bus +station. + +Mr. BALL. Were there a lot of bus stations? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, that is a point I am not sure of. We took a bus +down to Acapulco from Mexico City and I have the feeling that was the +busline we took to Acapulco. I know there are about three different +buslines situated in different places in Mexico City, and I am not sure +just what was the name of the depot we came into. + +Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of +luggage? + +Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one. + +Mr. BALL. Just one? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald on television after the President had been +shot, didn't you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, tell me where you were when you saw the television and +who was with you and what you said. + +Miss MUMFORD. On the Friday night of the 22d, Pat and I left by bus +for Las Vegas for the weekend. Patricia was not working at that time. +I am not sure whether she had seen television shots--I think we had +both seen television shots before we left for the bus station. I am not +familiar with whether we realized at that stage that it was him or not. + +I remember in Las Vegas we had a television in our motel room and it +was then that we were both very sure that it was the same man. + +Mr. BALL. You saw him on television, did you? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you thought you recognized him then? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. As the man you had met on the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The man you have referred to as "Texas"? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; well, we knew we had seen him somewhere before, and +we were sort of going over our travels in our mind, and it hit us that +it was on that bus, particularly when they said he was from Fort Worth, +or from Texas. + +Mr. BALL. Now, can you give me a description of the Englishman; what he +looked like? You told me his approximate age. + +Miss MUMFORD. He was short. Yes; about 5'8". Quite bald, plump; fat. He +was also dressed casually. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a tie on? + +Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. He seemed to me not to be well dressed. +He was scruffy. He spoke well. He spoke with a cultured English accent +more than a Cockney or a suburbia accent. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you whether or not he had lived in Mexico before? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Not--he didn't specify Mexico City. He said that he +had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you his name? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man later on by the +Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. But they showed you pictures of a man, did they not? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; they showed us two pictures the first time, one +picture I was fairly certain was the same gentleman. The other picture, +whom they said was the same man, I couldn't give that description--I +couldn't say definitely that it was him or even the same man. + +The second time the FBI official showed me a photo was some weeks or +months later and I could make a definite--what is the word I want? + +Mr. BALL. Identification? + +Miss MUMFORD. Identification of that picture. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell the agent? + +Miss MUMFORD. Well, that third picture, on the second time he had +showed it to me, was, I was certain, the same man. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the elderly Englishman? + +Miss MUMFORD. The elderly Englishman. + +Mr. BALL. That you had seen on the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see this Englishman again? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Except this night, or this ride on the bus? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that was the only time. + +Mr. BALL. Did they tell you that the Englishman's name was John Howard +Bowen? + +Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't recall ever being told his name. + +Mr. BALL. Or that he might have had the name Albert Osborne? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember either of those? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. Was your friend with you when the agent showed you the +pictures? + +Miss MUMFORD. The first set of pictures, she was still in this country +and she was also shown them. The second set of pictures was shown to me +after she had left. + +Mr. BALL. When the first set of pictures was shown to your friend +Patricia Winston, what did she say? + +Miss MUMFORD. If I remember correctly, she felt the same way as I did: +that one of the photos was a good likeness, and the other one she +couldn't make an identification. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have anything else that you would care to say; any +impressions that you obtained from this ride on the bus that you think +might be of assistance to us? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. You have told us about all you know about that trip, have +you, now? + +Miss MUMFORD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for your +signature, I hope this week. + +Mr. DILLAVOU. You mentioned to me, Pam, something about the frugality +of this boy in his travels. I don't know if you want that---- + +Mr. BALL. Yes; we would like that. + +Miss MUMFORD. Oh, yes; he did say that the Hotel Cuba was a very cheap +place to stay, and I think either Patricia or myself made the comment, +"Well, that suits us fine because that is the way we do it, too." + +That is the only thing I can remember that he said that referred to his +way of travel. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about how much money he had, or how much +he could spend or would spend? + +Miss MUMFORD. No. + +Mr. BALL. That's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER + +The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 5:25 p.m., on March +25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise, I will swear you as a witness. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a +member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating +the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been +authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant +to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November +29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. The Commission has +adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the Executive order +and the joint resolution. I understand that Mr. Rankin, the general +counsel to the Commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you +that I would contact you to take your testimony this week. He sent with +that letter, I understand, a copy of that Executive order and joint +resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by +the Commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. You received +that letter? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And copies of the papers I referred to? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Today we want to examine you briefly concerning the +possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name +of Oswald who may in fact have been Lee Harvey Oswald. Before we get +into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court +reporter. + +Mr. RYDER. Dial Duwayne [spelling] R-y-d-e-r. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. RYDER. 2028 Harvard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What city? + +Mr. RYDER. Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed, Mr. Ryder? + +Mr. RYDER. Irving Sports Shop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? + +Mr. RYDER. 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place is the Irving Sports Shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, it's a retail sporting goods store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in your work there? + +Mr. RYDER. Actually, my capacity is, I guess you could refer to it as +service manager. I do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor +work, rig boats. I guess you say general flunkie or service man you +refer to it as. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? + +Mr. RYDER. Twenty-five. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in Texas? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I was born in Claremont, Ill. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas? + +Mr. RYDER. 1945. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1945? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school? + +Mr. RYDER. Irving High School; actually, I went all the way through the +Irving public school system. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you graduated from the Irving Public High School? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate from high school? + +Mr. RYDER. 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been working for the Irving Sports Shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Five years be close enough; it's a little less than 5, but 5 +covers it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have children? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been married? + +Mr. RYDER. Five years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in? + +Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard, 49th Armored Division which I am +still an active member. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you serve on active duty with the U.S. Army? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For 2 years? + +Mr. RYDER. No; actually it was, let's see, I guess you say it was 15 +months, 16, something like that. In other words, while I was on 6 +months' training, they activated the 49th Armored Division and I was +called in to stay 9 extra months on active duty. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed while on active duty? + +Mr. RYDER. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual +training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive? + +Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard? + +Mr. RYDER. Now? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. RYDER. Sergeant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was it at the time you went into active duty? + +Mr. RYDER. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. June what? What was your rank when you went on active +duty? + +Mr. RYDER. I was just an E-2. + +Mr. LIEBELER. E-2? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; or private--beginner--actually, I had 3 months +actually, National Guard work which waives your time for E-2, three +months' period. Of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared +in the Dallas Times Herald on November 28, 1963, and apparently a +version of that story was carried in the New York Times on November 29, +1963, which mentions you. Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter +from a Dallas newspaper? + +Mr. RYDER. After the story was out; yes--before, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, the deal is the story came out on Thanksgiving and +early that morning the telephone rang--I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, +something like that--and I answered the phone and a guy introduced +himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and hung up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was a newspaperman? + +Mr. RYDER. To tell you the truth, I didn't pay that much attention. I +was half asleep because it was a day off. I was going to get some of +that extra dozing time, you know, and I just told him I didn't have any +comment and hung the phone up and took it off the hook and later on +that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal +on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came +out in the Times Herald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you were not interviewed as far as you +can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came +out in the Times Herald? + +Mr. RYDER. Not as far as I know. I was interviewed by the FBI and +Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came +out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of those interviewed you first? + +Mr. RYDER. The FBI was the first one out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first +interviewed you? + +Mr. RYDER. It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President +Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25. Friday was the 22d, +Saturday would be the 23d, Sunday the 24h, Monday the 25th. Do you +remember the name of the FBI man? + +Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Horton [spelling] E-m-o-r-y E. H-o-r-t-o-n? + +Mr. RYDER. I didn't get his first name. His last name stuck with +me--well, I don't know why; it just stayed there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Horton say to you and what did you say to +him, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. RYDER. Of course, we were closed on that Monday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Irving Sports Shop was closed? + +Mr. RYDER. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed +me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me +about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there +was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in +Texas and that to say that I had him in the shop, actually, this was +after a period of time that we boiled it down to. Oh, I told him I had +a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling +and tapping and boresighting--no address, or name; he didn't say he'd +like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then I seen the +gun. Of course, from the picture I told him as far as I could remember +I told him I hadn't mounted that scope, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You based that statement that you had not mounted the +scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular +kind of rifle, is that correct? + +Mr. RYDER. Right, on this Italian rifle--I never worked on them. I seen +them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to +this date, I haven't worked on any of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that? + +Mr. RYDER. I am positive on that, very positive. So, we went up to the +Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed +him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it have a number on it? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton? + +Mr. RYDER. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would +probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or +3 weeks ago they came and got it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who came and got it? + +Mr. RYDER. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was +on Saturday, I believe it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to +be done? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping; +it said drill and tap and a price of $4.50, I believe it was and +boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $1.50 a +hole--that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'--would on +this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where +in the picture of the gun there was only two screws holding the mount +of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't +mounted it on the gun, so Mr. Horton, so he took it for granted that I +hadn't done the work on it and I am sure I haven't because---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of gun was it? + +Mr. RYDER. It was a 6.5 Italian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the make? + +Mr. RYDER. Like I say, I have seen several of them but as far as who +made the gun, I don't know; probably some Italian gun manufacturer but +as far as who it was, I don't know. I can't read Italian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work +was done? First of all, the tag was not dated? + +Mr. RYDER. The tag was not dated. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you make any estimate of the time by looking at +this ticket as to when the work was done? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, it was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of +November. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? + +Mr. RYDER. Because the work was done while the Greeners or the Woody +Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know? + +Mr. RYDER. They were gone that 2 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know it was done while they were gone? + +Mr. RYDER. Actually, I can't really say too definitely sure but I am +quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the +shop while he was there. In other words, before they left, and of +course, it was gone when they came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "the gun," what do you mean? + +Mr. RYDER. The one I worked on--in other words, he keeps a pretty good +watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will +check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure +I'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done. +He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered +that quite surely if---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have much work of this type? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting +telescopic sights? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of +the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe +50 scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone +which is quite a headache in itself. That's just prior to hunting +season, you see. Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say +specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another +Oswald. In other words, I don't put that close relation to a man's face +to a particular item of work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did the deer season open--the 14th or 15th of +November? + +Mr. RYDER. The 15th, I believe it was this year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you mounted perhaps as many as 50 scopes in +the 2 weeks preceding that day? + +Mr. RYDER. Very possibly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the last 2 weeks in October. Did you +have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time? + +Mr. RYDER. Not quite that many. Lot of these guys like to get their +scopes mounted just before they leave. For instance, buying these +license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. They +wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you +might have mounted during the last 2 weeks in October? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure +wouldn't be sure about the number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would not have been as many as you did the first 2 +weeks in November but would it have been more than 10? + +Mr. RYDER. Oh, yeah; I'm quite sure. I say roughly 25 scopes. Of +course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy +a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and +better scopes and they buy these things and mounts and everything +somewhere else and have us mount them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The thing I am working toward here is trying to fix the +date on which this ticket with the name Oswald on it--when the work was +done. + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you mounted, say, 25 scopes or approximately that many +during the last 2 weeks of October, isn't it possible that the Oswald +scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss +would not have remembered the name Oswald as being connected with one +of those rifles? + +Mr. RYDER. Could have, but like I say, he's pretty sharp. He's pretty +smart; I mean in keeping up with the business, you know what I mean. In +other words, the flow of the work that I had; in other words, he keeps +a close watch on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it. +Are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive +numbers on them? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do these numbers come from? + +Mr. RYDER. We buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of +the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off--say I have +number 41626 of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on +the gun. As far as sequence, we don't use any. We have a box and we +reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. The same tag is used on +reels, rods, outboard motors, boats. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no possible way in which you could fix the +date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag? + +Mr. RYDER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you limit it to a period of 2 weeks? + +Mr. RYDER. Like I say, it would be from the 1st to around the 14th or +15th of November while the Greeners was away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said before you were quite sure you never worked on +a---- + +Mr. RYDER. The Italian gun. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Italian rifle. Do you have any recollection of the +kind of rifle that this Oswald tag referred to? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. That's another place where we did--in +other words, I did so many and I was so rushed that I didn't pay a +whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope +put on. That is where actually our fall-down went on the thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is no indication on the tag as to what kind of +rifle it would be? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates +that three holes were drilled? Do you ordinarily drill three holes on +all rifles? + +Mr. RYDER. We boiled it down to this: That there are two type bases +used that have three. The Redfield base and the Buehler base and then, +actually, these could go on any gun that you want. In other words, if +a man bought a Redfield or Buehler base they can be adapted to any gun +with three holes. Now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it +was imported because the Springfield O3A3 requires three holes; the +British 303 requires three holes. These are guns they use and that's +the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three +holes, so we boiled it down, it was either Buehler, Redfield base or +with the Weaver base being on the Springfield O3A3. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or the 303 British rifle? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you boiled this down in your conversation with +Horton from the FBI? + +Mr. RYDER. Actually, this was amongst ourselves, I and Mr. Greener. +Actually, there was a lady from the Washington press, of course, I +don't know, I forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with +the Washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name? + +Mr. RYDER. I sure don't. She, in turn, called Klein's and found out +the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled +and tapped. In other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from +Klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach +it to this particular gun. In other words, the one he used in the +assassination. Of course, they order by serial number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified you did not mount any scope on an +Italian rifle? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge +for the process of boresighting, is that correct? + +Mr. RYDER. Actually, it's hard to say, really. At that time we were +not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. Now we do +charge extra, $1.50 bore sighting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall if there was an extra $1.50 for +boresighting indicated on the ticket in question? + +Mr. RYDER. I don't even remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing that point with Agent Horton? + +Mr. RYDER. Yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $1.50 for the +boresighting. As a matter of fact, I did because $6--or was it $4.50--I +don't even remember that now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't now remember whether the ticket was for $4.50 +or $6? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right, right now, I don't. It seems like to me it was +for $4.50 for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. I believe it was for +$4.50. In other words, I didn't charge for boresighting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do when you bore sight a rifle? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, I use a sight-a-line. That's actually three different +things but, what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing +company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. It lays +like such instead of like such [illustrating]. By taking a little sprig +that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through +the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point +of the cross hairs. It doesn't zero a gun by any means. It just gets +you--oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting +it? + +Mr. RYDER. No; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point +or close to one point where you can get your point from there without +wasting ammunition. If I were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in +a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating] +somewhere; say, draw a circle and I line this with that and aline the +sight, I have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, I +go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way I hold that gun. +This breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference +between boresighting and zero. If you been in the army, you know the +difference. In other words, this method I was just describing say, to +the building, is the way we use the bore sight. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But now you have a little machine that does that? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which +makes it simple and faster. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever worked with any rifles that came from +Klein's in Chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted +on it? + +Mr. RYDER. You can't tell unless a man tells you. In other words, to +look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as how the scope was mounted, you mean? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are +boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not? + +Mr. RYDER. Most likely they are. Now, I don't know how they operate, +if they do boresight any there or not. I do know for a fact if you +boresight or zero a boresight on a Redfield base or any base except +Bausch and Lomb, other than those, other than the Bausch and Lomb, if +you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. In other +words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's +going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. It might +be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any +event after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it +could be used to shoot accurately? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; take for example, I have a Model 70 Winchester .30-06 +caliber with a K-4 Weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer +season I will shoot it in and I have found several times it has been +off just by riding in the back of the car. Taking it in and out of a +gun case, things like that will make them off. In other words, they +are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get +bumped loose so it would be like I say, he would have to have it zeroed +after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If I were to tell you that this particular rifle had been +carried to New Orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a +garage in Irving for 2 months prior to the assassination and had been +moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be +out of sight at that time? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; it could be very possible. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be probable or do you have any +experience to make a judgment like that? + +Mr. RYDER. Like I say, of course, I take proper good care of the gun +I got and I have to readjust it quite often when I shoot it in. Of +course, then again, too, later on, from one season to the next I might +change from the way I held my gun which is another thing to make a lot +of difference in the way I shoot but one to be carried that far, unless +it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of +alinement or out of adjustment. Another thing, too, on just looking at +this picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. The picture of the rifle? + +Mr. RYDER. The picture of the rifle that Mr. Horton had; this was a +real cheap, common, real flimsy looking--of course, I couldn't tell by +just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of, +but to me it looked rather cheap. It would be very easily knocked out +of adjustment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is +that correct? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I haven't. I would like to see which mount it is, +see whose make it is, but I haven't seen it yet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the +Secret Service? + +Mr. RYDER. They came out and talked to Mr. Greener rather than +myself. Well, I talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular +conversation--Mr. Greener, myself, and the agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the agent's name? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said his name was +Elmer W. Moore? + +Mr. RYDER. Doesn't ring a bell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the Secret Service agent that you +were certain after viewing photographs of Oswald that you had never +done any work for him; in fact had never seen him? + +Mr. RYDER. Not actually in that tone; like I say, like I told all of +them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very +common, I say, for the working class in the Dallas and Fort Worth area +and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, I might ought to say, +and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar +to his features could have been in, but I couldn't say specific if he +had been in the shop or not, I mean, that's something I won't draw a +conclusion on because like I say his features, face and all is common +with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or +the other either for him or for another person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see, +I'm troubled to some extent because I have before me a report of the +agent from the Secret Service and a report from the agent of the FBI. +One report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to Oswald +and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. I am +puzzled by those statements. + +Mr. RYDER. Like I continue to say all the way through on their +investigation, both that Secret Service man and from the FBI that he +could have been in the shop; I could have talked to him but to say I +had definitely, I couldn't say I have really talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside +of the shop anyplace? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. I mean I couldn't say +specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth, +but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, I and +the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was +either this Oswald with another gun or another Oswald with another gun. +We know definitely that it was another gun. We know that for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have already carefully considered the possibility +of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it? + +Mr. RYDER. Right; Mr. Greener called all the other Oswalds listed in +the Dallas and Irving directories. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did that? + +Mr. RYDER. Right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whose handwriting does the name Oswald appear to be +written in? + +Mr. RYDER. It's mine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is your own handwriting? + +Mr. RYDER. It is my own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by +me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discover this tag? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My +workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered +around and I was--I had been to the Evinrude Service School---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. RYDER. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it +that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service +clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday +afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket +of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr. +Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I +didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture +and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that +particular gun anyway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Actually, I don't know. He evidently was checking all of +the---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Gunshops? + +Mr. RYDER. Gunshops and hit us on Monday, well, let's see, it was, oh, +it was about 10:30 or 11 that morning whenever he first came out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle, +are you? You have not worked on any similar rifles? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is +a real oddity. It's an odd job and I have never worked on any. I have +seen several. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever broken one down? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; never have. As a matter of fact, the only thing I +can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it +back up. That, to me, is common; I always make sure there's no shells +or anything before I look at one. That's the first thing if you hand me +a pistol, I kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's +unloaded but this gun is real odd, I mean it's a crude-built gun. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When a gun is broken down, by that, I am sure you +understand that I mean you remove the action and the barrel from the +stock. The rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces. + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when +put together? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is generally true because the stock of the rifle +doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel? + +Mr. RYDER. Right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the +way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note in connection with the picture that you +observed of this rifle they found in the Texas School Book Depository +Building, did you note whether or not on that rifle the stock went +very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far? + +Mr. RYDER. As far as I remember it had been cut off, or, in other +words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as I remember, I +don't. I am quite sure it didn't. It went a little over half way in the +picture that I saw. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the +stock goes quite far along the barrel? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not a common type of construction in a domestic +rifle or nonmilitary rifle? + +Mr. RYDER. Right; or nonmilitary or what we call a sporter rifle your +stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the +barrel to wiggle as it may. A military rifle, M-1, Garand, O3A3, 303, +they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. In other +words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that +filled in on the top side. Lot of people use military rifles or use +sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a +little above half way of the barrel. Others go ahead and spend and +buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as I +remember, this stock on the picture didn't go all the way to the end of +the barrel. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Unless you can think of anything else that you want +to add at this point I just tell you for the record that my present +inclination is to close the deposition at this point. I may wish to +question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can +look at it. Unless you can think of anything else you want to add at +this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. Can you +think of anything else? + +Mr. RYDER. No; I can't think of anything right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask one or two more questions. You mentioned +you were interviewed by the Dallas police force about this. Do you +remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the Dallas +police force? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. Actually, I say Dallas Police Department, +it was the sheriff's department rather than the Dallas Police +Department, really. Of course, I connect the two together but they're +two separate organizations; I know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In view of my former statement, I would like to thank you +at this time. If we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in +the future. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER RESUMED + +The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 12:45 p.m., on April +1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, +Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Dial Duwayne Ryder. +The witness having been previously sworn, we will continue with the +examination. + +First of all, Mr. Ryder, I want to show you a picture that has been +marked Exhibit No. 1, on Mr. Greener's deposition. I ask you if that is +a picture of the repair tag that you found here in the shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; that is the one right there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It has the name Oswald on it and the words drill and tap +$4.50; bore sight, $1.50; total $6. + +Mr. RYDER. That is the one we was thinking about the other day. Did it +have the $6 tag or the $4.50 tag, because we sometimes charge for the +boresight and sometimes don't, depending on the type work we do or what +we actually do on the thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the exact details under which you found +the tag in the shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, we talked about this thing on Saturday morning and +like I said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it +is cluttered up, and on Saturday evening I was cleaning it off and +found the tag laying back on the workbench. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday following the assassination? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You found the tag there yourself? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out here prior to that time? + +Mr. RYDER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They had not? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out? + +Mr. RYDER. On Monday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late +President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came +out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is +that right? + +Mr. RYDER. He told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and +got the tag. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this? + +Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and +we told them the same thing that we told the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the +FBI came out here? + +Mr. RYDER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? + +Mr. RYDER. I am positive about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression at the time the FBI came that they +were making a routine check of all guns? + +Mr. RYDER. That is my opinion. That is the idea I had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any special reason why they came to +this particular gun shop? + +Mr. RYDER. No; he didn't give any specific reason. He was just checking +us out. Like I say, probably just routine like he checked all others. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures that have been marked +Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 on Mr. Greener's deposition. They are pictures of +a rifle, and I ask you if you have ever seen a rifle like that or ever +worked on one here in your shop? + +Mr. RYDER. I have seen them but never have worked on one of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you seen them before the assassination? + +Mr. RYDER. This is what I was talking about the other day. This is not +as plain a picture as Mr. Horton had. Evidently that is a reprint, but +there are two screws, one here and one here, where on the tag I have +charged for three holes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the screws on Exhibit No. 3, that hold +the scope mount to the rifle; is that correct? + +Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton, the FBI man, on the rifle he had it was real +plain and you could see these two screws, and this was a hole, but +there wasn't any screws. There was just two screws in the mount. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The mount had three holes but only two screws? + +Mr. RYDER. That is apparently in the picture you have here, and this is +what I was referring to as a cheap mount. This looked to me like even +in this picture it was real thin gage metal. I can show you something +like that, that we use on a .22 scope, and that is all we use. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion it is too light a mount? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; it is too easy to get jarred off on a high-powered +rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would throw the accuracy of the rifle off, wouldn't +it? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is all I have, Mr. Ryder. I just wanted you to look +at the pictures, and I thank you very much. + +Mr. RYDER. I don't know which one it was, but it looked--it looks like +a copy of the one the FBI man had, except it's been copied over and +over. This is not as plain as the one he had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you if the FBI or anybody that ever talked to +you ever showed you any pictures of a man and asked you if you could +identify that man as Oswald? + +Mr. RYDER. He showed me a picture of Oswald, but like I told him, I +couldn't say definitely if I knew him or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some other pictures that we have. The +first five pictures have previously been marked Commission Exhibits +Nos. 451 and 453 through 456, and I will ask you if you can recognize +the man or men described in these pictures. Have you ever seen them +anywhere, as far as you can recall? And second, if you have ever seen +him in the shop? + +Mr. RYDER. No; they don't look like--too familiar to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do they appear to be pictures of the same man to you, or +a different man? + +Mr. RYDER. They look actually to me like they are different men. These +two look real close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibits Nos. 456 and 451? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; they look real similar in their hairline. Actually, I +guess this looks about the same, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 455. But the other +two pictures look a little different? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The other two being Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and +454? Now I show you a picture that has been marked previously as Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-A. I ask you to look at all the individuals in that +picture and tell me if you recognize any of them. + +There are two individuals that have been marked by a green mark, but +don't confine your attention to them. + +Mr. RYDER. This one I know is Oswald, as the pictures in the paper, but +as far as seeing the guy personally, I don't think I ever have. I could +have, but being in business here, it would be hard to say. Any of the +others, I don't believe I have seen any of the others, but this one, +like I say, just by picture---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man that has been marked with an +"X"? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or with two lines as opposed to one straight line on +Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. I now will show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, +and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? There is a man +marked with a green mark in the left-hand corner of the picture. + +Mr. RYDER. This would be the only one. Like I say, seeing him on +television and in the paper, that is as far as I could go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The man marked with the green line, is that right? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture which has been marked Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-C. Do you recognize him? + +Mr. RYDER. This is the same picture that the FBI had of Oswald, the +same picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember seeing this man in the shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Like I say, as many people as we have in here, it would +be hard to distinguish one from another unless they come in quite +frequently and you begin to know them. Then you would know what he +looks like and kind of put a name with a face. There are several people +that come in here that have been coming in for several years, but I +can't make this old ticker work up there as to their names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you aren't able to say whether this man was in the +shop? + +Mr. RYDER. He may have or may not have been. I couldn't say for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you, Mr. Ryder. We appreciate your +cooperation The Commission wants to thank you very much for the +cooperation that you have given us. + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER RESUMED + +The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 7:40 p.m., on July 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe this is the third time that we have met and I +have advised you previously of the nature of the Commission's work and +you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if +you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as I recall, +and you know who I am, and, of course, you are Dial Ryder and you +work at the Irving Sports Shop, and we have had previous testimony +concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald may have had some +work done on his rifle in your sports shop. + +When I talked to you previously, I asked you if I recall correctly +about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper +reporter from The Dallas Times Herald; do you recall me asking you +about that? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that you told me that you had +not talked to any newspaper reporters from The Dallas Times Herald in +connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on November +28, 1963? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And specifically you had said that you had not talked to +a newspaper reporter on the morning of November 28, 1963, although you +did say that on that morning, sometime around about 7:30 a newspaper +reporter did call you from The Dallas Times Herald and told you that +he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to +talk to him? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you hung up the telephone and as I recall, you +testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it +impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that +correct? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you were interviewed by the FBI again on May 18, +1964, and you told them that same story; is that correct? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in fact correct? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. It sure is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the +newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his +name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to +work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this +story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some +woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in +Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports +shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you +didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is +that right? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which +he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police +Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between +7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that +apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep +and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that +he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him +the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on +November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving +him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had +called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt +familiar to you at all? + +Mr. RYDER. No; it's not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not that was the particular +newspaper reporter that called you that morning? + +Mr. RYDER. I couldn't say definitely for sure--like I said--I told them +I had no comment on it and hung the thing up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the fact that Mr. Schmidt has so +testified, I have been advised that one of Mr. Schmidt's associates was +sitting right there in the office at the time Schmidt called you and +heard the entire conversation between Schmidt and yourself and he said +that Schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a +person by the name of Dial Ryder, who gave him this information about +the gun work being done at the Irving Sports Shop and he said he heard +the whole conversation. + +Mr. Schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to +take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or +not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him +the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that +were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared +in that newspaper story. I am not here to say myself who is telling the +truth, because I don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of +you is not telling the truth, either Mr. Schmidt or you. I don't know +what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and I don't know +what reasons Mr. Schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but I +wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that I have just +made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh +your recollection. I don't know whether you talked to this newspaper +reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other +testimony, I wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection +that in fact you did talk to this man? + +Mr. RYDER. No; like I said, the only people I talked to were Mr. Horton +with the FBI and then the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's +department--is the only ones I talked to about this, until, like I +told you--the CBS reporters came out and we made the television deal +after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it +straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, I didn't talk +to anybody over the phone about it except I said I had no comment and +hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook +and went on about my business of sleeping on this Sunday morning. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Edith Whitworth? + +Mr. RYDER. Let's see--there was a lady from the Washington Press. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in +Irving, which is down on Irving Boulevard. + +Mr. RYDER. No; I don't know her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Greener knows her? + +Mr. RYDER. Now, he might--I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any woman by the name of Mrs. Gertrude Hunter +who also lives in Irving and is a friend of Mrs. Whitworth's? + +Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't know them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you aware of the fact that just down Irving Boulevard +from the Irving Sports Shop, a block and a half or so west, there used +to be another gunshop where a man carried guns? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, there was a little place down there where he handled +guns--I don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not, +but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or +something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the west? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And do you know that there used to be a used furniture +shop that was there? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; it's still there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know the people that ran it? + +Mr. RYDER. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office +and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss +this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on +this telephone conversation. + +(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room +and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified +yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do? + +Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified +yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in +your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some +sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his +rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas +of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. +Schmidt? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it +was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city +directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked through +and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was +the one that said what I was looking for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you +know? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I +don't remember. I have been trying to remember where--who specifically +it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. +As I said before, we had several different leads on different stories +and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember +where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police station, +one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in +from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a +rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there, +and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had +to do it by a process of elimination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally +found it in the phone book? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and +I called him up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock +and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30 +or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman +answered the phone. + +Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial +Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get +out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the +person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and +it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial" +yesterday. I guess--that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he +was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session +and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on +it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember +for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he +understands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common +face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many +time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure +how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting +the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it +was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the +boresighting bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I +understood it fully and that might have been a little incorrect in the +paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the +boresighting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been sitting here watching Mr. +Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar +to you? + +Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what +happened on that morning? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, like I have said before, and it is in my +testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly +7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter +asked me had I mounted the scope on the Oswald gun and I told him I +had no comment and I hung up, I mean, I took the receiver off the hook +and that's all I done and all I said here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice, +can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone +that day, or are you unable to do it? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was +6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in +the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving +Sports Shop? + +Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered +and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, +and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it +might be done? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want +to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up, +I think we could make arrangements to have a polygraph examination +administered to both of you. + +Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that +story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the +gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified +himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I +don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount +of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even +get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a +story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just +don't like to be doubted. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in +your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with +Ryder? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure +whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even +paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my +left and a couple to my right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due +regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved +in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph +examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case +for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission +will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is +not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the +position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you +do so. That's entirely up to you. + +Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to +that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk +to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody. +That was my day off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper +reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you +wanted to enjoy as your day off, but you did go over to the shop that +afternoon and meet the television people, did you not? + +Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys +and made the little film that they wanted. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any +time the next day or the day after that about this whole story? + +Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day--on +Friday--Friday and Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to +do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the +newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas +Times Herald? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story? + +Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it +was over the radio--originally--I don't know. The CBS boys said that +they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or +over the AP. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the +Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has +made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report +comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the +existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and +the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole +Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found +many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved +out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any +work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever +did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that +Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he +used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't +think you claim you did mount that particular scope? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On +the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President +Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it +cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to +assassinate the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not? + +Mr. RYDER. That we had not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face +as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop; +isn't that right? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any +specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that +work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does +appear, that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of +any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle +than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought +that one in the sports shop? + +Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench +back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and +the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I +couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there +right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it +in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you wrote that gun +ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right? + +Mr. RYDER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November +22? + +Mr. RYDER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket +with any particular gun in your own mind? + +Mr. RYDER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this +before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which +this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil +and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular +day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale +shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out +every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked +you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list +of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you +weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil. + +Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some +copies--actually, he gave me some dates that I came to town and signed +and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had signed with +a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil +laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of +my shirt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after +this investigation that the FBI conducted and the questioning that we +have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of Oswald +with any gun at all? + +Mr. RYDER. Yeah--like I said--all I've got is that ticket with his name +on it and the work being done. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, at this point I think we might as well conclude the +deposition. The Commission will take under advisement Mr. Schmidt's +request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and I +am advised by one of the U.S. attorneys here that one of the other +reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we +will take his deposition tomorrow. If you want to have a polygraph +examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you +have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact Miss Stroud +here at the U.S. attorneys' office, if you want to. + +Mr. RYDER. Okay. Is that all? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's all. Thanks a lot, Mr. Ryder. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HUNTER SCHMIDT, JR. + +The testimony of Hunter Schmidt, Jr., was taken at 4:20 p.m., on July +22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please sit down. My name is Wesley J. +Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission +investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been +authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November +29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the +Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney +present should you wish to have one. And you are entitled to 3 days' +notice of the hearing, should you wish to insist upon it. And you are +entitled to all privileges in terms of not answering questions that +you would have in any other proceeding. I assume that you are prepared +to proceed at this point without an attorney, since you don't have one +here? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't think that it would be necessary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Hunter Schmidt, Jr. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. 1118 Osceola Trail, Carrollton, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. September 12, 1933. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your educational background. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Tyler High School, Tyler Junior College; I have a B.A. +from Lamar Tech, and I am working on my masters at SMU. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In what? In journalism? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No; in government. Two courses and a thesis away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are presently employed by the +Dallas Times Herald, is that correct? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you work for them in the capacity of? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. County editor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. County editor. What do you do as county editor? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I cover, or well you might say my beat is everything in +Dallas County outside of the city of Dallas, and parts of Eastern +Tarrant County. That is roughly some surrounding towns, and I take +care of the general news coverage in that area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the request of the President's Commission, the Federal +Bureau of Investigation conducted certain investigations into the facts +surrounding a story that appeared in the November 28, 1963, edition of +the Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Thanksgiving Day; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The story related to the possibility that Lee Harvey +Oswald had had a telescopic sight mounted on a rifle at a sports shop +in Irving, Tex. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding from reviewing the FBI report, +that you were the reporter that wrote that story? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I gathered facts for the story and gave the facts to the +rewrite man who wrote the actual story, but they were from the facts +that I gathered. We were checking out several, running down all clues +and all possible reports at that time. Anything that might be a lead +to the story, we checked out. We checked out many many things of that +nature, and that was just one of the tips that I checked out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you first get information that Oswald had had a +scope mounted on his rifle at this Irving sport shop? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. We heard of it, I think it was around the police station +somewhere. I don't remember where that exact tip came from. We heard +that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder, and they thought +at first it was Garland. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Garland, Tex.? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Garland, Tex.; that's right. Since that was my beat, well, +they gave me the tip to check it and I checked it in Garland and found +out that there wasn't any Ryder listed in the city directory and so +forth, so I did it by process of elimination and checked several towns, +and I found, well, I came to rest on Irving, because I found the Ryder +there listed as the sports shop man, and I just took it that that was +the gunsmith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether Ryder, when you checked the city +directory, that Ryder was listed as being associated with a gunshop, or +did you just find the name Ryder and call him? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember exactly what I found in the city +directory then. It was a process of elimination, and apparently that +looked like the only one in Irving, so I checked that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you called Mr. Ryder on +the telephone? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; this was Thanksgiving morning. In fact, that is the +same morning I got the tip. After the process of elimination, I called +Ryder and it was early that morning. I called out there, and a woman +answered the phone, and he apparently had gotten out of bed, from the +time it took. He sounded sleepy on the phone and so forth. So I talked +to him then on the phone and asked him about the information I got for +the story. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you talk to him on the phone about that? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, I am just guessing. I would estimate 15 minutes or +roughly thereabouts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. He told me--I asked if he had a customer--now this is a +tip we got, that this Ryder mounted a scope for a customer, and the +customer's name on the ticket with the gun was Oswald. And he confirmed +on the phone that morning. And the reason I took it as the truth was +because I didn't think a fellow would get out of bed early and make up +a story half asleep and fabricate a story that early in the morning, +and get out of bed on a holiday. He told me that he had a ticket with +the name Oswald on it, that it was a foreign-made rifle, that he did +put the scope, bored the holes and sighted it in. I asked him if he +bought any ammunition, and he said no; he didn't. I think he said he +didn't remember him buying any ammunition. He then gave me the prices +for the mounting of the scope, $1.50. I think he said he bored three +at $1.50 a sight, and $4.50 for the boresighting--I mean for the hole +drilling. And $1.50 for the sighting in of the rifle. And let's see, +after he gave me the prices and everything, I just took it as pretty +authoritative, because I didn't know that much about rifles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that Ryder told you that he believed that +the rifle was a foreign make; is that right? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; I asked him what kind it was. He said he didn't +remember for sure, but he said he believed it was a foreign-made rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder say anything about the fact that he was sleepy +and had not slept well the night before? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No, I don't believe he mentioned that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that? Did Ryder tell you what +boresighting was, or did you know about that? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I might have gotten that mixed up in the story. Some +of the people who know more about rifles than I do said that wasn't +exactly correct. The boresighting was explained in the story, but I did +the best I could with the information I had there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Ryder about the +significance of the term boresighting? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Not that I remember. This boresighting thing came +up--there is a fellow down there that knows something about rifles, +and I mentioned boresighting, and then there was a conversation with +the rewrite man that took the facts I had and added to the story. The +top of the story is the story I got from Ryder, and the other part of +the story were some other tips that had been run down and other parts +of the story we pieced together about the general investigation and so +forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was Ryder's attitude when he talked to you on the +phone that morning? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was just a man giving information, as far as I +was concerned. He wasn't antagonistic or anything. It was just a matter +of facts, I would say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI about this? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Petrocas from Oklahoma; an FBI agent? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I am not sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him that Ryder was cordial and +invited you to get in touch with him again? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; he did. I think he said get in touch with him again +if I wanted to, I am not too sure, but it was that type conversation. +He wasn't antagonistic. As a matter of fact, it was like you would get +a story from anybody. Nothing apparently controversial about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report that I have also indicates that the agent +says that you told him that Ryder did explain to you in detail the +significance of the term "boresighting." Do you recall telling the +agent that? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember for sure. That was back, I guess, in May. +I don't remember any detail about the boresighting, but I remember him +mentioning boresighting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI report indicates that on the evening of November +28, 1963, which was the same day that you had talked to Ryder, you saw +a taped television interview? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. A denial. He denied the story that he had given me that +morning. But the thing that, immediately after I saw that, I called +one of the fellows on the paper. I think it was Charlie Dameron or Ken +Smart or one of my immediate superiors, and told him I thought the +story had something behind it because they didn't mention the ticket, +they didn't mention about the name Oswald on it, in the denial, and +they didn't mention the cost of doing this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It did not? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. It did not, as best I remember, mention the cost of doing +that, and didn't mention the ticket. It just said he denied the report +that he put the sight on the rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, according to this report that I have, and it says, +"Schmidt advised that while at his address the evening of November 28, +1963, he observed a taped television interview on a 10 o'clock news of +CBS television, in which Ryder denied furnishing any of the information +to a Dallas Times Herald reporter as set forth in the article which +had appeared in the newspaper that day." + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. About that 10 o'clock, I was guessing that that +was the 10 o'clock news. I did see a television denial of that, and I +am just guessing that it was the 10 o'clock news. It was CBS, because +I know I remember it was. It had to be CBS because I believe, and I am +not sure about that 10 o'clock, because the best I can remember, it was +Walter Cronkite reading the denial, and if it was Walter Cronkite, it +couldn't have been the 10 o'clock news, because I don't think he was +on then. In any event, I did see the television denial of it, and I am +pretty sure it was CBS. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder actually appeared on the television taped +program, at that time; did he? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I am trying to remember that. I just remember the +denial clearly on television. I wouldn't swear to Ryder being on the +television tape. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember for sure that Ryder denied furnishing any +information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. In that interview he denied having done, having mounted +a scope on the rifle, and he denied the story in the Times Herald, is +what he was doing in essence. And he said he just didn't do it, is what +he said on that, or what the story on the television said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not he specifically denied +having told that story to a Dallas Times Herald reporter? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I don't remember if he specifically said that in +essence. I remember the denial being credited to Ryder. As best I can +recall now, the denial being credited to Ryder. + +He said he denied the story in the Times Herald, that he did thus and +so, that he mounted the scope. Now I am trying to remember back from +what I saw on that television, because now I understand he has denied +to his boss later on. + +His boss had talked to our people at the Herald. He denied to his boss +later on, and his boss talked to us and said that he denied to him +talking to anybody from the Times Herald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Greener (Ryder's boss) about this? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. On the phone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. He called. He was very cordial. He called in and he said +that--this is after he had talked to somebody else, as I understand it. + +Either he called in, or I called him. We got together on the phone, and +I told him that I talked to the man Thanksgiving morning and got those +facts from him. And he said that the guy denied the story, and that was +in essence what was said. I told him I didn't know why he denied it or +anything, unless he figured that it might not go over very well with +the public. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Greener know about this work that had supposedly been +done on Oswald's rifle, when you called him? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember discussing that, whether he knew about +the work or not. But I remember pointing out the fact that in the +denial that I heard on television, that the ticket and the cost and +all that wasn't mentioned. And as I have said, I didn't know that much +about rifles, and I told the man I couldn't make up that much about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Greener telling you that he was +completely unaware of any of the information that was set forth in the +article that appeared in the paper on November 28, 1963, until after +he had been contacted by a CBS television reporter that afternoon, and +that was the first time that he read it? That he, Greener, had learned +any of the facts about this whole thing? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe he said something to that in essence. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Greener why Ryder had denied talking to you +and giving you the information? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Did I ask Greener why Ryder denied it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; as I understand, the sequence went something like +this. You talked to Ryder on Thanksgiving morning, and he gave you all +the information and you wrote the story that came out in the paper. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that night you saw on television a program on which +Ryder in general denied ever talking to you, or denied the story that +was printed in the paper? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And I understand shortly after that time you called +Greener? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe it was the next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said to Greener, what is going on. Did you ask him +why Ryder denied the story that he had previously given you? That is my +question now. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I could have very well. I do remember talking to Greener +and telling him that, I am sure, I got the story from Ryder that +Thanksgiving morning, and I told him the reasons I thought that it was +a factual story because, as I said before, about getting up early on a +holiday, and the ticket with the name Oswald on it, and the cost and +everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Greener ever tell you that Ryder had told him, +Greener, that he had never talked to a reporter from the Dallas Times +Herald? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe Greener said that Ryder said that he hadn't +talked to anybody, as best I can remember. I think he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Ryder at any other time except on +the morning of Thanksgiving, November 28, 1963? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I wouldn't know him if he walked in this room now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any other possible source of information for +this story? Did you talk to anybody in the Dallas Police Department +about it? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. About the mounting; no, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about the FBI? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I got all those facts from Ryder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got those facts from Ryder? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir; nowhere else did I get any information. I +thought that was getting it from the horse's mouth. If I thought there +was anything phony about it, I would have told the city editor about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you given consideration to the reason for Ryder +denying having talked to you? He denied talking to you, he denied it to +the television reporter, and furthermore, he has denied it to me under +oath. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, he would have to deny it under oath, but like I say, +I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate the story. I didn't get any +extra compensation for it. I got paid the same thing if I hadn't gotten +the story, if it had been a complete hoax. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think you got the information for the story +somewhere. I don't think there is any question about that. But isn't +it a possibility that you might have gotten the information from some +other place, a confidential source of information that you would rather +not disclose? Wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to say you got the +story from Ryder? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I had no reason to fabricate anything about Mr. +Ryder. I don't know the man. I have nothing against him. I just have a +story, and I will stick by that story we had in the paper. But the only +thing possible that I would be willing to retract any part would be +some details of how you do the boresighting. But I don't know that much +about rifles as to why he would deny it, except that he possibly could +have thought that wouldn't go over too well with the public, "Here I +mounted a sight on the gun that killed the President." Many people +would think--he never told me that this was the gun that Lee Harvey +Oswald used on the President. He said a customer with a ticket on it +that said Oswald, and I believe I asked him what Oswald looked like, +and I don't think he could put the face with the ticket, if I remember +correctly. + +I believe I asked him that, but I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate +anything. And the man I was looking for was the man who mounted the +scope. After I got that with these other bits of evidence behind it, or +evidence in my mind, probably circumstantial, but to me it seemed like +human nature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was enough evidence to justify writing a newspaper +article? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. I think so, and we try to be factual. I think we have +tried to be very factual and very honest on this thing. + +At this time you see we were getting things that were hoaxes that was +full of holes, and I wouldn't have any reason specifically to inflate +this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are absolutely firm in your position that on +the morning of Thanksgiving you did call Ryder and you did talk to him +and did get from him the basic facts about the gun, ticket, and the +boresighting and the drilling of the hole? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Absolutely. Like I say about the boresighting. I got the +boresighting statement and details that I didn't know about. But I did +get the cost. I got the ticket with the name Oswald on it, that he +mentioned in the story, the statement about the ammunition. He didn't +buy any ammunition that he could remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me say this to you. We are faced with a situation +where Ryder has denied under oath the statement that you have just +affirmed under oath. It is perfectly clear that somebody is not telling +us the truth. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Obviously. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What I would like to do in order to try to determine +who is telling the truth about this question is have you come in here +tomorrow evening at about 7:30 or so when Mr. Ryder is going to be here +again to testify before the Commission. After I discuss this with Mr. +Ryder, by myself, for a while, I would like to bring you into the room +and I would like to have you and Mr. Ryder see if you can't iron out +this apparent inconsistency in the two stories. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. It is perfectly fine with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you are willing to do that? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, we will suspend Mr. Schmidt's deposition +until such time as we resume tomorrow in the presence of Mr. Ryder. And +needless to say, of course, you will hold in complete confidence the +request that I have made of you now until after we have our meeting +with Mr. Ryder? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. That will be fine with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would be very unhappy if I found it in the newspaper +before Ryder gets here. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Is it free knowledge after that, though? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that is entirely up to you, I suppose. +I don't know if the Commission would request you not to write a story +about it. I would like to talk to Washington, and even if we request +you not to write a story, that is all we can do. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, we have tried all the time to cooperate with people. +If there is anything other than that you want me to do, if you have a +polygraph test, I will be perfectly willing to submit to it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have I mentioned a polygraph test? + +Mr. SCHMIDT. No; but I would be perfectly willing to submit to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that we will take under advisement +after we see what happens with regard to Mr. Ryder tomorrow. + +Mr. SCHMIDT. Perfectly fine with me. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHARLES W. GREENER + +The testimony of Charles W. Greener was taken at 12:15 p.m., on April +1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, +Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to swear you as a witness and she will take +this all down. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear +that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GREENER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think that Mr. Sanders' office called you previously +and told you that we would be out here? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff +of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the +background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other +Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? + +Would you state your name? + +Mr. GREENER. Charles W. Greener. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop +located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. Approximately 6 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has he been employed by you here at the shop practically +all that time? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have a repair tag that has the number 18374 on it and +the name Oswald, indicating some repairs were to be made to a rifle. We +will mark this picture as Exhibit No. 1, on your deposition. I show you +a picture of this tag and ask you if that is a tag of the type that you +use here in this shop? + +Mr. GREENER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen that tag before? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the first time that you ever saw it? + +Mr. GREENER. Approximately a week or less after the assassination was +the first time I had seen it. That was on Thanksgiving Day, I guess, +because they called me at home and I was eating and I met some of the +news media to go through this Thanksgiving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had there been anything in the newspaper about this tag, +or about Oswald having any work done here before you saw the tag? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; it had come out in the news, and this was Walter +Cronkite was to run a retraction on it, or at least clarify the thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of retraction? + +Mr. GREENER. Well, they tried to clarify the thing to say that we had +a tag showing a certain amount of work for an Oswald, but as far as +relating to that particular gun or that particular man, we had no real +knowledge of the thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out there at the shop before this thing +came out in the newspaper? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't think so. They came out after all the news +stories. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did the newspaper get hold of this, do you know? + +Mr. GREENER. I couldn't tell you that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear that it was in the press before the +FBI ever talked to you? + +Mr. GREENER. I am pretty sure it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether the FBI could have talked to Ryder +or anybody else at the shop? + +Mr. GREENER. That I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the owner of the shop, are you not? + +Mr. GREENER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you here at the shop during the period after the +assassination and prior to the time that the FBI came here for the +first time? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If the FBI had come here to talk to anybody about Oswald +having been here, they would probably have talked to you, isn't that +right? + +Mr. GREENER. It is possible. Now I do know that one newsman came in and +he wasn't going to consult me in any way, so I don't know whether it +would have been the case with the FBI or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did the newsman come in? + +Mr. GREENER. That was on a--I believe that was on a Monday--following +Monday, as I remember it. + +No; wait a minute. No; it wasn't a Monday. That holiday, it's got me +mixed up. It must have been on a Friday after the Thanksgiving holiday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the story had already been out in the +newspaper, is that right? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This reporter came in and wanted to talk to Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. Right. The paper stated the owner of the Irving Sports +Shop, and he apparently figured that was the correct information. + +Of course, all the newspapers, they didn't check out any stories; they +just run to their office and sent it in, as you well know. No one +checked out anything. Anything they could get hold of, they put in +print, and some of the information they got a hold, I don't know where +it came from. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter +talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop? + +Mr. GREENER. One told me he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name? + +Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald? + +Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him? + +Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning. I +don't know when that was. I am inclined to believe, to the best of my +knowledge, it was Thanksgiving Day. Now I could be wrong on that. My +recollection is that this story first came out--I am thinking it came +out on Thanksgiving Day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a clipping from the New York Times of +November 29, 1963, which appears to be one of the first times that this +story was released in the New York papers at any rate, November 29, +1963. + +Mr. GREENER. What was Thanksgiving Day? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thanksgiving Day was on a Thursday, was it not? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 28, so that the 29th would +have been the day that it came out in the New York papers, and it very +likely could have come out in the Dallas paper on Thanksgiving Day. + +Mr. GREENER. I think it was Thanksgiving Day when it came out in the +paper, because I hadn't heard anything of it, and I remember we were +playing dominoes when the paper came, and we quit and read the paper, +and then also they had come by to check on this story, and we came up +to the shop and went through that for Walter Cronkite's program. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter had come out to check out the story? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the newspaper clipping that +I previously referred to is from the New York Times of November 29, +1963, and the story is entitled, "Gunsmith Attached Sight for Man Named +Oswald," and it is a story written by Mr. John Herbers, and it has been +marked as Exhibit No. 2, on Mr. Greener's deposition. + +Now do you have a feeling or do you have the thought based on what this +reporter from the Dallas News told you that the reporter had talked to +Ryder prior to the time that the FBI ever came here to the shop? + +Mr. GREENER. You are going to have to go through that again. I am not +sure that I was following you all the way. I was thinking a little bit +while you were talking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first +broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions +before the story came out in the newspapers? + +Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had +been by previous to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the +story in the paper? + +Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the +news reporters. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name +you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him? + +Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper +reporter about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At all? + +Mr. GREENER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you never had any opportunity or occasion to ask Ryder +whether a reporter or, or whether Ryder contacted a reporter, because +he simply denied talking to a reporter? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you asked Ryder about this? + +Mr. GREENER. Must have been on Friday, because I was a little bit +aggravated at the whole setup. They got me out of bed a time or two +at night, and I believe that I had called the Times Herald to talk to +this reporter to see where he was supposed to have been getting his +information. I'm sure that after I talked to them that day was when I +questioned Ryder. So I feel pretty sure it was Friday or Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The 29th or 30th of November? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder ever indicate to you that he had talked to a +newspaper reporter about this? + +Mr. GREENER. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection at all of the name of this +reporter from the Dallas newspaper? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't have the slightest idea about talking with +reporters until this bunch that was going to run the program on Walter +Cronkite's program had contacted me, and he called me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember any of the boys with the television +program at all. They had called me and wanted to come down and take +some pictures, and he called me, Ryder did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The television men had called Ryder? + +Mr. GREENER. That was after the newspaper article had appeared in the +newspapers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder called you and talked to you about it, whether +these men could come down? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; and I came down and met with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Ryder told them? + +Mr. GREENER. To the best of my knowledge, he told them that we had the +ticket, but he didn't remember the name, didn't remember the gun, or +the person, because actually here is the thing about this tag here. +We have tried to keep a little better record. We get busy, you know, +and get a little lax, just like you and everybody else does, and if +we got two or three waiting, why, at that time we were not going to +dally about what the name is or date or address or telephone number or +anything. We felt like we didn't have time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was just before the deer season? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; I guess the deer season opened November 16 in Texas, +and our workload was pretty heavy, and we were working short handed, +too, which would be one reason for no more information on the tag or +several other tags. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date? + +Mr. GREENER. No; no way in the world. In the first place, I wasn't +here. I feel sure I wasn't here at the time this went on. I was gone +from--I don't remember what day I left. I started hunting in South +Dakota on November 2, and we came back somewhere between the 12th and +14th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you feel that you weren't here at the time +this tag was made up? + +Mr. GREENER. Well, in checking around, I feel like possibly that I +would have noticed it on the gunrack. I would--I don't know whether I +would or not, because I do some of the repair work myself, and a lot of +times I go through the guns on the rack to be repaired, and if it is +something I can do, I take care of it. If he is busy, then I take care +of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder, you mean? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of this tag? + +Mr. GREENER. None whatsoever, until, I believe, it was the day on +Thanksgiving when they came down here. Now, I believe--this has been +a long time and we are going into phases of this I hadn't thought of +in a long time--it seems to me that the FBI got ahold of him and they +come down scouring through the place. That was very possible after the +newspaper report broke. It could have been before, but it seems to me +that that is when the tag appeared. I believe it was an FBI man who was +out here checking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if that is true, then the tag would have had +to have been found and the FBI man would have had to have been here +before the story broke in the newspaper? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I said it could possibly be after the newspaper story +appeared, but I believe when the tag was found lying on the desk +somewhere, that the FBI man was here when it was found. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best recollection that you have? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could +be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't +entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me +that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the +tag was found? + +Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As we discussed briefly off the record before we started, +it appears that there are three possibilities concerning this tag. +One, in view of the fact that Mr. Ryder is quite clear in his own mind +that he never worked on an Italian rifle similar to the one that was +found in the Texas School Book Depository, we can conclude either that +the Oswald on the tag was Lee Oswald and he brought a different rifle +in here, or it was a different Oswald who brought another rifle in +here, or that the tag is not a genuine tag, and that there never was a +man who came in here with any gun at all. Can you think of any other +possibilities? + +Mr. GREENER. That about covers the situation, it looks to me like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to what the real situation is? + +Mr. GREENER. Nothing more than I have confidence in the boy, or I +wouldn't have him working for me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would make this tag up to cause a lot +of commotion? + +Mr. GREENER. I don't think so. He doesn't seem like that type boy. I +have lots of confidence in him or I wouldn't have him working for me +and handling money. Especially times I am going off. He--if he wasn't +the right kind of boy, and he pretty well proved he is by dependability +and in all the relations that we have together, and I just don't figure +that is possible. Now I say I don't figure that. Of course, there is +always possibilities of everything, but I don't feel that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't feel Ryder would do that? + +Mr. GREENER. Not at all; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When we look at this tag, it appears in the photograph +that it is in two parts. There is a top part entitled "Repair Tag," +on which writing appears, reading "Oswald, drill and tap, $4.50. +Boresight, $1.50." Or a total of $6. And it appears at the lower part +of the tag; it is in the form of a claim check; isn't that correct? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The tag number, as I have indicated, is 18374. Would I be +correct in assuming that if this tag had been made up when a customer +came in and left their rifle, that the part of the tag entitled "Claim +Check" would ordinarily have been torn off and given to the customer? + +Mr. GREENER. No; you are wrong in assuming that. Because I believe +19 out of 20 would not ask for a claim check. In the first place, 18 +out of that 20 would lose the claim check before they got back, so if +you are going to give them a claim check and stick to the thing, not +letting them have the merchandise if they don't have the claim check---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are running into a lot of trouble from a business +point of view? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; when they come back for the merchandise, I ask them +what the name is, and if we have a gun to go by the name---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily tear off the claim check? + +Mr. GREENER. No. If you look at the rack, you won't find one on the +whole rack that has a claim check that has been torn off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't any way you can tell from the number when the +check was issued? + +Mr. GREENER. No, because we got the tags dumped into a box, and we +reach in and get a tag and tie it onto the merchandise and fill it out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously +been marked in another part of these proceedings as Commission Exhibits +Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you if you recall ever seeing +the person or persons depicted in these pictures? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't believe I could identify him as ever having +any dealings. Now there is a familiarity there, but I couldn't tie it +with anything or anybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't figure out in your mind why you think there +is a familiarity to those pictures? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen those pictures before? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI or Dallas Police Department ever shown you +pictures and asked you to identify them? + +Mr. GREENER. No; they haven't shown me pictures of anyone for +identification. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you another picture which is a photograph +that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, a photograph of an +individual on a street, and one of them has been indicated by a green +mark on the picture, and ask you to examine that picture and tell me if +you have ever seen that man before? + +Mr. GREENER. Not that I can recall now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph of a street scene which has +been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you recognize any +of the people in that photograph? Two of them have been marked with a +green marker, but don't confine your attention entirely to those two +individuals. Tell me if you recognize any of the people in that picture? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly I call your attention to the man who was +standing immediately to the left of the man who is marked with the "X," +rather than the line, not immediately, to the left of him, then, but +the second man to the left. He is standing there with a tie and he has +some papers in his hand. Does he look familiar to you at all? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-C, and ask you if you can recall ever having seen that +man? + +Mr. GREENER. I don't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that man in the picture? + +Mr. GREENER. According to the other pictures in the paper, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who does it look like to you? + +Mr. GREENER. It looks like Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't ever remember having seen him? + +Mr. GREENER. No; my mental pictures are not hardly as good as it used +to be. You take fooling with people day in and day out, without some +reason to recognize them, the next time you see them--there is a reason +for it, you don't make a mental picture of every person that comes in. +If he was 6'6" and weighed 300 pounds, or gave you some trouble when he +comes for his merchandise, then it is likely you would remember, but +a guy just comes in and tells you what he wants done, and comes back, +and gets his merchandise and doesn't give you any trouble, then you +don't remember. Usually I never forget a face. Now, the first picture +you showed me, there was something there, but I couldn't pin it to +anything, though. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am marking two photographs of a rifle as Exhibits +Nos. 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. I have initialed both +photographs for the purpose of identification, and I would like to have +you initial them, too, so we don't get confused as to which picture we +are looking at. + +Mr. GREENER. Both of them? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Both of them, please. These are pictures of a rifle. I +would like to have you examine it and tell me whether you have ever +seen that rifle or one similar to it. + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember this rifle at all. The first Italian +rifle that I remember seeing was in Worland, Wyo. A friend pulled his +out, and that is the first Italian rifle that I ever recall having seen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subsequent to the assassination? + +Mr. GREENER. That was while we were on the trip. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having seen a rifle like this in the +shop here? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I sure don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have taken the first two exhibits and marked them +Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, on your deposition, and I have initialed both of +them and I would like to have you initial them also for the purpose of +identification. + +Mr. GREENER. [Initials.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made any attempt on your own part to try to +figure out how this tag came to be in your shop? + +Mr. GREENER. No; really I haven't inquired any at all on that. I +inquired about the reporter deal, but I didn't inquire into anything +at all about the tag, because I just assumed it was all open and above +board and didn't go into it at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have talked previously about the three +possibilities that could possibly explain this tag, and you have told +us that you don't think that Ryder is the kind of guy who would write +the tag up after the fact just to cause a commotion. + +There are two other possibilities. One, was that Lee Oswald had a +different rifle in here. And the other is that there is a different +Oswald involved. Do you have any opinion as to which of those +possibilities might be correct? + +Mr. GREENER. No; it would just be a---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Wild speculation? + +Mr. GREENER. Very wild. Very wild speculation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you told me before that you had been interviewed +several times by the FBI and by the Dallas police force. Can you think +of any questions that they asked you or things they discussed with you +that we haven't covered here? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I can't. It seems that we have gone into it far deeper +than they ever did, the Dallas police or the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that I should have asked +you or that you can add that would help clear this situation up? + +Mr. GREENER. No; sure can't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions at this point, Mr. Greener. +If you can't think of anything else that you think is appropriate to +add to the record, I think we will terminate the deposition at this +point. I want to thank you very much for the time you have given and +the cooperation you have shown. I know you have been talked to about +this a lot of times. I appreciate the cooperation you have shown the +Commission, and I thank you very much. + +Mr. GREENER. We have tried to cooperate with them all the way through. +When they continued to come back and ask the same questions and get me +out of bed and all at 11 or 12 o'clock at night and get a tag they had +looked at three or four times, I began to get a little bit aggravated. + +Mr. Ryder and I have always been interested in helping them in any way +we could with any information we could give. I don't feel that he is +the type boy to do that. Of course, that again is people are involved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you have known the boy a long time and you should +be in a position to make that kind of judgment? + +Mr. GREENER. That is what he is. He has been a mighty fine boy and he +is just an extraordinary boy. There is not many like him, and I would +trust him with anything that I have to be done, and it just never +struck me as him being that kind of boy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you a couple of other questions about rifles +and sights. I know you do have a meeting at 12:30. + +Mr. GREENER. No; it was 12. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought it was 12:30. I am sorry you are not going +to make the meeting. You may have read in the newspapers that Oswald +purchased this Italian rifle, or was supposed to have purchased it from +a mail-order house in Chicago, with the telescopic sight mounted on the +rifle at that time? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In your opinion, based on your experience in this field, +do you think that a rifle that had been purchased from a mail-order +house that is shipped through the mails with a scope mounted on it +would be in a condition to fire accurately at that point without any +further sighting in of the rifle by firing it? + +Mr. GREENER. The possibility of it being, especially with this +frail mount is, I am sure that that mount, according to what little +information I have, the possibility of it being real accurate would be +pretty small, I think. + +I think the gun would be--I think even a fellow that was going to go +deer hunting would want to take the gun out and shoot it before he went +hunting, and I think that holds very true with this case, regardless of +whether we mounted the scope or who mounted it or it come mounted. I +think the man would fire it before using it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You feel that because you don't think that a rifle would +be able to be fired accurately unless it had been sighted? + +Mr. GREENER. The possibility would be small that it would be real +accurate; and you talk to most any of the fellows that go hunting, +regardless of how expensive a mount they may have on the gun, he is +going to take it and fire it before he goes hunting. That holds true in +99 percent of the cases. + +The only reason not to would be the fact the man was in a real big +hurry, he picked it up late in the afternoon and he was going to +Colorado and was getting there after the season and he was going to +shoot and just take his chances. Otherwise, he would take the gun out +and fire it, 99 out of 100, and fire it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be true even if it had been boresighted? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes; because actually the boresighting with the tools that +we use, the accuracy of the thing on the windage part of it is very +accurate, but as far as distance, different guns will travel a flatter +trajectory than other guns will, and there is no calibration on the +sighting tools that tell us that you can sight the gun in on target, +that it is on 60 or 140 or 270 or 308. There is no calibration for that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No calibration for the boresighting machine? + +Mr. GREENER. No; you have the crosshairs and you line the two of them +up, and that is approximately 100 or 125 yards range, but different +guns will vary as to the trajectory, and one might hit the target and +one be a little high and another a little low, so that is the reason +the man takes his gun and shoots it in as far as the elevation is +concerned. He can zero it in to what distance he wants to shoot it at. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have to be done, as you have indicated, even +if the rifle had been boresighted? + +Mr. GREENER. That's right. It would be accurate as far as elevation. +The windage part is usually right on target, but the elevation has to +do with caliber. + +As far as your 6.5 Italian gun is concerned, there is only two types. +One is the hand load, and one is the military ammunition. Because there +is none of the major ammunition manufacturers that builds a sporting +load for that gun, so it either has to be a hand load or old Italian or +military ammunition, and the hand load has to do with what size bullet +and the power you get, and it would be more important on that gun to +shoot it than it would any other caliber or of an American make that +you get your larger manufacturers of ammunition loading for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any 6.5 ammunition in your shop? + +Mr. GREENER. Not 6.5 Italian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had? + +Mr. GREENER. We have a 6.5 Swedish and 6.5 Jap, and I believe that is +all of these 6.5's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you do reloading of casings? + +Mr. GREENER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow has to do that himself? + +Mr. GREENER. We sell the components and the loading equipment but we +don't do any loading. The only one that I have been able to find out so +far that hand loads 6.5 Italian--I don't think this is a possibility, +but Ray Acker with Bell Telephone is the only one I know that does any +hand loading on 6.5 Italians. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He works for Bell Telephone Co.? + +Mr. GREENER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He does this as a part-time occupation? + +Mr. GREENER. Hobby; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to him about this case at all? + +Mr. GREENER. No; I don't guess I have ever called him. How I came to +know that he reloads, and I don't know to what extent that he reloads, +but I called one of my suppliers as to the availability of 6.5 Italian, +and he gave me his name, so that is the reason but I can't say, but as +far as I know, he is the only one that loads 6.5. There may be others +that buy their own dies and hand loading, more especially since there +are more guns coming out, but that would be, oh, a year and a half ago +when I was told that he hand loaded 6.5 Italians. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you need a particular kind of equipment to reload +shells? + +Mr. GREENER. Very definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does the equipment vary with the caliber of the shell? + +Mr. GREENER. Very definitely. The presses usually will accept all the +different calibers, and then you have to have your die sets. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To pour it? + +Mr. GREENER. You've got to have your shell holders, and your die holder +that resizes the brass and inserts the bullet into it, the bullet +seating and there is only one caliber that one set of dies will load. +If you load a 6.5 die, you have to have 6.5 dies. If you load .30-06, +you have to have .30-06, and you can't have any part of the two on the +different calibers of ammunition. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, thank you again, and we appreciate your cooperation. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GERTRUDE HUNTER + +The testimony of Gertrude Hunter, was taken at 5:50 p.m., on July 22, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, would you stand please and take the oath. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the +staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President +Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the +Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. +11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. +137. + +Pursuant to the rules governing the taking of testimony by the +Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney here if you wish +and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of the hearing. You are not +required to answer at this time any questions that you think might be +incriminating or involve some other privilege, of course. Most of the +witnesses don't have an attorney and I see you don't have one here so +I assume you want to proceed with the questioning without an attorney +being present, is that correct? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. HUNTER. 141 South Hastings, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Irving? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I think it was 2 years the 14th of July--right at--between +the 8th and 14th--I don't know the exact dates, but it was 2 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Four girls. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Twenty-five, twenty-one, nineteen, and sixteen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Jacksonville, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived most of your life in Texas? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, yes; all my life. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mrs. Edith Whitworth? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known her? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, ever since I came to Irving. We are football fans +together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You came to Irving about 2 years ago? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; in July. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from information that has been provided to us +by the FBI that you were in a store operated by Mrs. Whitworth sometime +in 1963--that was formerly operated by Mrs. Whitworth--at which time +people who you now believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife and +children came into the store, is that correct? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that +event as best you can remember them? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was after 2 o'clock and I had went down to talk +to her--we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting +there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was +going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store +and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car drive up? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving it? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man driving it? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were in the car? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Just him and a woman and two children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody else? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No one else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I'm positive, because I was sitting right there--I was +sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove +cater-cornered up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And there are glass windows in the front of the store so +that you could see right out into the street? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It is a solid glass there and the door was standing open +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about what kind of car it was? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the reason I'm definite about the car--a friend of +mine in Houston--I was looking for them up and they had a car just +like this and I had left a note on my mailbox that I would be at this +place--telling them if anyone come I would be at this place and when +they drove up I thought that was them and it was a two-tone blue Ford. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What year? + +Mrs. HUNTER. 1957 or 1958--I won't be positive about that, but I would +rather say it was about a 1957, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From which direction did this car drive up? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, where the car come from--I don't know whether +it come up Jefferson or down Irving Boulevard, but I know that it did +park into the front of the store where I was sitting, you know, I was +talking and I wasn't paying any attention to which way the car came +from. The only thing I seen is the driver, when he drove up, and I seen +the color of the car, I started to get up because I thought it was +my friends from Houston, and I looked and seen that it wasn't and he +just got out and come in. She didn't get out at that time. He come in +and asked for the gunsmith, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm not +positive, but it seems to me like, because I was thinking that so many +different times that they would come in--whether he had something in +his hand or whether he didn't, but I know he went back to the car, and +if he did, he put it in the car and when he come back in, she got out +and followed him in, but he didn't help her out of the car, he didn't +help her with the kids or nothing. She just followed him in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is the furniture store that Mrs. Whitworth operated at +that time at the intersection of Jefferson Street and Irving Boulevard, +is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; you come right in to Jefferson and Irving Boulevard. +It used to be the bus station--the Continental Bus Station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And they had diagonal parking on that street? Is that the +way you parked? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you see, it was where the buses used to park clean +off the street to get out of the way of the traffic, you see, and you +just come up with the nose right up and you would be out of the traffic. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Out of the main street? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Just like this here was the store [indicating], well, it +was over this way and he just kind of cater-cornered up this way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, he parked his car diagonally in front of the store +and got out and came in? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after he went back out and they came back +into the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he just come in and she was over when her desk was +there and he asked her about some furniture or something and they +walked and went back to the back and this woman, she followed them and +this young baby and the new baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This man asked Mrs. Whitworth about some furniture? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Whitworth and this man walked toward the back of +the store and the woman and the children followed them; is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but she wasn't--now, listen, she didn't pay any +attention and this lady had had a new grandbaby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Mrs. Whitworth? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Whitworth's daughter and she says, "Let me trade you +a boy for this girl and we will both have a boy and girl." Well, they +didn't offer to show the baby or nothing and she didn't say anything. +We thought it was very funny and we discussed it after she walked +out--about her not being interested in showing her new baby, and, of +course, I didn't say anything to them, only I did see the little girl +and so forth. I didn't put my hands on her or nothing and I didn't pay +any attention to what they were saying at the back. All I know is that +they were looking at some furniture there, back there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man Oswald say anything about how old the little +baby was? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He said something to her but he was back far enough +that what he said to her--I don't know--it was about 2 weeks old or +something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mrs. Whitworth you are talking about now, or +Oswald? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oswald; and she asked Oswald something about the babies +and I don't remember just what he said to her, but it was something +about the baby, you know, and he didn't seem too enthused about that +either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear Oswald say anything to Mrs. Whitworth +about how old the baby was? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I won't be positive--it's been so long--just what he +answered her, but just not looking for nothing--I didn't say too much +about it, but we just thought it was a coincidence about him not being +interested in us seeing the new baby. I think he did tell her when it +was born; I'm not positive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix for us the date on which this occurred? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; not right offhand. All I know is that it was +before the football game--I believe the Richland Hills football game +and it was on a Wednesday or a Thursday--I won't say positive which one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How can you say it was on a Wednesday or Thursday? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I never did go down to the store only on Wednesdays +or Thursdays afternoons---only the days that we had charters, and I +went down on Friday afternoon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the days you had charters; what do you mean by that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Charter buses to go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To go to the football game? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a charter bus to go to the football game at +Richland Hills? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; we went in cars that night and that night I would +always wait until my daughter calls at 2 o'clock. When she would call, +then I would go down to the store and that's the reason I definitely +know it was after 2 o'clock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which daughter is this that you are talking about? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Glenda. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what is her last name? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Hunter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old is she? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She's 19. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And does she live with you at home? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that she calls you at 2 o'clock? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her lunch break--she gets her lunch break from 1 +until 2 and she would always call me just a minute or two before she +goes back to work--just a few seconds--every day before she goes to +work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does she work here in Dallas? + +Mrs. HUNTER. At Commercial Title. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She always calls you at about 2 o'clock; is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Between--she has to be back at her desk at 2. She will +call me anywhere, you know, when it's handy--if she comes up in town +to eat, it may be about 10 minutes until 2. If she takes her lunch and +eats there, it may be 15 minutes to 2, but I would always wait--I would +give her a chance to call me before I would leave and I never would +leave before 2 o'clock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How late in the afternoon could it have been, you think, +that these people did come? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I would say between 2:30 and 3:30, because I never +did stay gone past 4 o'clock. My daughter comes in from school and she +didn't have any way to get in the house. I locked the house and she +would get to the house before 4 and I would try to be back at the house +before 4 and there was just one or two evenings that I didn't get to +the house before she come in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you would always try to get back home by 4 +o'clock? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; so I could unlock the door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the conversation between Mrs. Whitworth and +this man who came in about the gun? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He just asked for the gunsmith and she told him the +gunsmith had moved down the street and she went out in front and +pointed down to where to go and told him where to go and showed him +where it was at. I didn't go out the door. I was just sitting in a +platform rocker and he thanked her and he just went back to the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And after he went back to the car, then, they all came +back again and went in the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He came back in and then her and the children got out and +followed him in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Whitworth told him where the +gunshop that used to be in the furniture store had moved or did she +direct him to another gunshop? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; she told him that this man had gone and she thought he +was down in those sport shops or some kind of a shop down the street, +or that there was one down there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with where it is? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She was over at the front and I was back here, but I heard +the conversation, you know, what he was asking for and all that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he had anything in his hands when +he came in? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It seems to me like--I'm not positive--that he had +something and it come to me that it was wrapped in brown paper. Now, +I'm not positive about that, but it was just something like you +handle--he didn't have it up in his arms--he just had it in his hands. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how long the package was, or do you +remember that clearly? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I just remember there was something in his hands. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where the Irving Sport Shop is located? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I sure don't--I have never been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Woodrow Greener? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Dial Ryder? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I don't know too many people, I guess, you would call +me selfish, but I don't know too many people in Irving--period. There +are just a very few that I know--just the grocery store where we trade +and the man that runs the bus station and Mrs. Whitworth and one or two +I met going to the football games--I have been there 2 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store during the time these +people were there? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; just me and her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald say anything while she was in the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I never did hear her open her mouth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did the little girl, the 2-year-old, behave? Was she +well behaved? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; she just went along holding her her mother's +dresstail. He didn't help her with either one of the babies and she was +walking along. You know, she is kind of shy and it was in a strange +place and she was kind of holding to her mother's coattail when they +were up there where I was at--where the table went around and I don't +know--I just--they was kind of dressed bummy or something--I don't know +what you would call it. She was kind of clean. He looked pretty nice. +I just thought--why was she dressed like that--you know how you will +notice that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the little girl say anything at all to her +mother or her father? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't hear her say anything. Now, when they went +down the aisle, nearly to where Mrs. Whitworth and this man was, she +looked down at her and said something, but I didn't understand what she +said. She kind of whispered it to her. Now, I don't know what she said +or--she said shhh--or something like that to her--I didn't understand, +but she did look down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The mother did look down to the little girl? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were these people in the store altogether--the +family in the store altogether? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, I don't know--I would be scared to say about that, +because, not expecting anything--they come and went so much in there--I +didn't pay no attention to about how long they was in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you along with them when they were looking at the +furniture? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I was sitting in the platform rocker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But the woman went back and looked at furniture with her +husband? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; she didn't--that's what I say--she just walked along +there and she didn't pay that furniture any mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling that there was any argument +going on between them or hostility between them or anything like that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I just think to myself--what is he looking at +that for, she isn't interested. That's just the opinion that I got. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he seemed to be much more interested in the +furniture than she did? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that these people were in the +store there for the period of time that they were and there was not a +single word exchanged between this man and woman? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't think nothing about that. I don't know--I +don't pay too much attention to anything like that, because while they +were back there, I got up and got out of my chair before they went back +to the car and walked to the door, and was standing looking out the +door up toward the bus that comes in for people to get off of, and I +didn't pay them any more mind until they went out to get in the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, they went out and got in the car and what happened +then? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when they got in the car--he said something to her, +but I couldn't hear that because I was standing in the door and he +turned like he was going to go back down that way and I said, "Don't +go that way, it's a one-way street, you'll have to go through the red +light and turn left." And he looked at me and he didn't say thank +you or nothing and he just backed out and went on down and I watched +him--he turned at the red light--turned down Main Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He drove east down Irving Boulevard; is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He was going down toward Plymouth Park, I believe it was +west--it's a one-way street and you have to go out and come down south. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which way does Irving Boulevard run--it runs east and +west, doesn't it? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I would say that it did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it's a one-way street, and it's a one-way street +running toward the west; is it not? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he got into the car---- + +Mrs. HUNTER. He got in the car and backed out here and he acted like +he was going to turn this way and I said, "Uh-uh, don't go back that +way, that's a one-way street and you will have to go down here to the +red light and turn to the left," and he went down and turned down Main +Street to the left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He went down the street against the traffic, going the +wrong direction? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; he went down with the traffic, down toward Plymouth +Park. I would say he drove west with the one-way traffic. He was going +to go back opposite, and he went on down to the red light on Main +Street and turned to the left. Now, where he went to from there, I +don't know. I didn't pay him any mind because I was standing there +watching some women coming down the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he was going to go back there--you mean in +the direction of Dallas, don't you? + +Mrs. HUNTER. That's what I would figure, because he would have to turn, +unless he thought he was going to turn and go back down Jefferson, if +he come in Jefferson, but I don't know that he come in Jefferson. He +couldn't have done that--he would have gotten a ticket for that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's see if we can establish it between ourselves +here, first, for this discussion, which way Irving Boulevard runs. When +you come toward Irving from Dallas, it runs--Irving Boulevard runs in +the direction away from Dallas, doesn't it, toward the west? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the man got in the car and he drove west in the +direction of the traffic down Irving Boulevard? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And turned at the red light on Main Street? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He turned left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He turned left at the intersection of Main and Irving +Boulevard? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that's the last you saw of the car? + +Mrs. HUNTER. That's the last I seen of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man seem to have any difficulty driving the car +as far as you could tell? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; not that I could tell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have discussed this whole question, I am sure, with +Mrs. Whitworth from time to time since it happened, haven't you? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, not too much. When they come on television and we +noticed who it was--I don't know--let me see if I can remember the +first time I seen him on television--I wasn't watching it when the +President got killed and I didn't know anything about it until way +after it happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first get the idea that those people that +had been in the store were the Oswalds? + +Mrs. HUNTER. When I seen them on television, and I just says to +whatever was sitting there, I said, "That man was down in the furniture +store the other day." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it in the room? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was just one of the kids I don't know--I forgot +now which one of them it was, but we were sitting in the house and I +said, "That man on television was down at the furniture store the other +day," and it was after he got killed that they showed her, I believe, +and I recognized her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize these people as soon as you saw them +and prior to the time you discussed it with Mrs. Whitworth? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know just how soon--I couldn't be +positive just how quick now--I done forgot--that I talked to her after +that, but it was after I seen him on television that we discussed it a +little bit and all, because after they fixed her up, she was pretty and +we did discuss that--the difference she looks now and her down there in +the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean she does--you think she does look different now? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, yes; she's pretty now. She looked awful down there in +that store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would recognize her as the same person +if you saw her again? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I doubt it--very seriously. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you would recognize her? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I sure don't, not from the way she looked in that +store that day and the way she looks now. Now, that's how much +difference there was and I generally notice anyone by their eyes +quicker than anything else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you notice that she looked different? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh--it was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that when you saw her on television after the +assassination? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; the first time I seen her, she looked just common, +just like she did down there at the store that day, and I guess it was +when they fixed her up--it must have been after the funeral and she +was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a +discussion about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, +because we had discussed it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or +something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long was it after the assassination that you noticed +this difference between Marina Oswald as she appeared on television and +in the paper? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, you may think I'm funny, but I didn't pay no +attention at all to that television--my television wasn't on when he +got killed or the parade or nothing. I was sitting at the table and +after it happened, I wouldn't watch the television--I didn't watch none +of the burial procedures or anything--any of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But at some point you noticed that Marina Oswald looked +different than she had the day she was in the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, when did you first notice that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was undoubtedly quite a few days or several days +after Oswald--after Jack Ruby killed Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As much as a week after that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well--it was just after that--I wouldn't say just definite +what time it was, because, you don't notice anything like that. +Naturally, it's going to pop in your mind when you do notice something +like that, but just as soon as I seen her fixed up on TV, I just +noticed it was quite a difference of how she looked then and before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think it was within a week after the time Ruby shot +Oswald, is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I wouldn't say--not now, it has been too long ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you now do have some doubt in your mind after having +seen her as to whether you would even recognize her as the same person +that was in the store, is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, with the way her features looked on television now +and the way I seen her in the store--yes; because she dresses nice and +she's real cute. She dresses cute and she was sloppy in the store that +day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Her face hasn't changed any, has it, she has the same +face. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, her hair makes a difference now. I might recognize +her--I wouldn't say I wouldn't or I would, but I don't know--I've made +the remark two or three times that she doesn't look like she did the +day I seen her in the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you still don't have any doubt in your mind that it +actually was she that was in the store the day you saw her? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I will say this, that the one I seen in the store +and the first time I seen her on television the first time was the same +woman--let's put it that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that Oswald actually turned +down Irving Boulevard and went against the traffic when he came out of +the store and went against the traffic? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, no; I didn't tell them that he went east. I told +them he started to turn east and I told him he was going the wrong +direction and he would have to turn back. Now, that woman from England +that came here-- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there that day she came? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; she come to my house that night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told her about that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just the same thing--about the same thing I have +told you, because that's about all I know. I might have remembered +a few different little points then that have slipped my mind now, +but that's just like what I told you, I guess a few little ends and +odds have slipped, but that's just about all I know, because I wasn't +expecting that and I wasn't looking for nothing like that and I just +didn't think too much about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Whitworth see these people get in the car and +drive away, do you know? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I don't know, because she was on that side where they come +out and I was on this--at a door standing in the door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were closer to the door than Mrs. Whitworth? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I was closer to the car than she was. She was back +down here where they generally went into the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was further away from the front door where the car +was parked than you were? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I don't know whether she was in the door or not. I +have never discussed it with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never told Mrs. Whitworth that this man got +in the car and drove the wrong way down the street? + +Mrs. HUNTER. The only thing that--I says, "He started to go back down +Irving Boulevard." I did say that to her one day because it was a +one-way street and he was going the wrong way then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think if we have Mrs. Oswald come in here next +Friday morning and you come in and look at her and the children too, do +you think you would be able to come here and tell us if they were the +people that were in that store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say--I just wouldn't say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we have asked Mrs. Whitworth to come in--to come +back Friday morning at 9 o'clock and we will have Mrs. Oswald and the +babies come in and we would like for you to come back to see if they +were the people in the store. Would you be willing to do that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I will be willing to do it, but now, it's like I +say--I wouldn't say I would recognize her now because she is pretty now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she would recognize you, do you think she +would remember being in the store if she had really been in there? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I wouldn't know that--that's her--I don't know because I +never did interfere with the people that come in there to do business +with her or I I never did say anything to them and I never did answer +her telephone or nothing at that business. I was just sitting in there +talking to her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suspend with the questioning now, Mrs. Hunter, +until Friday morning. + +Mrs. HUNTER. This Friday morning? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; day after tomorrow. You and Mrs. Whitworth can come +back at that time and we will bring Mrs. Oswald here. + +Mrs. HUNTER. That's all right. She is pretty now but she wasn't then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you go, I want to show you some pictures here and +ask you if you recognize any of the people in them. I show you Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-A and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just not offhand--not, no; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask you the same question with regard to Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-B. + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody in that picture? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The same question with respect to Bringuier Exhibit No. 1. + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; not dressed like that--I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 177 and ask if you +recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to a woman that's holding a child. + +Mrs. HUNTER. I don't know what she's holding--I can't tell that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, there is a woman sitting there in a chair? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As we face the picture, it's on the farthest left, is +that right, and who is that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, that looks like her a little bit--but she's got her +hair fixed still different than she had it in the store that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man sitting right next to her, does he +look like the man that was in the store that day? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he resembles the man that was in the +store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; that's not him, and that's Mrs. Oswald. That may be +a brother, but that's not him. I never did see his brother because I +didn't watch none of that. I just didn't want to live with it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Garner +Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that looks like anybody you have ever seen +before. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, looking from up this way it could be--from here +up--it could be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that that resembles the man who was in the +store somewhat? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I would say he's kind of built that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, does that look like +the man who was in the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it could look like him some, but he was not dressed +that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure that that was him? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I wouldn't say it was with him dressed that way +because I didn't have that much hankering to really tell what he +really looked like and it has been so long since I've seen it on the +television that I wouldn't guarantee that--not looking for nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. We will see you on Friday. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EDITH WHITWORTH + +The testimony of Edith Whitworth was taken at 5 p.m., on July 22, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand and take the oath, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the +Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. +11130, dated November 29, 1963, and by joint resolution of Congress No. +137. + +Under the Commission's rules relating to the taking of testimony by +the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this +or any other hearing at which you may appear before the Commission +and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of your appearance here. You +are also entitled to exercise the usual privileges with regard to +self incrimination and so forth as far as not answering questions is +concerned. I assume that since you are here without an attorney, that +you do not wish to have your attorney present at the session. In fact, +very few witnesses do have their attorneys present. Am I correct in +that understanding? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I assume that--I don't see any use of me having +one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. My name is Edith Whitworth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I live at 315 South Jefferson, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are married; is that correct? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many children do you have? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I have two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old are they? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter is 24 years old and my son 19 years old. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were they born? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter was born May 13, 1940, and my son was born +May 20, 1945. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your daughter is also married, is she not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is her married name? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Her married name--her husband's name is Bobby Gene +Hollaway, and her name is Joyce. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It's spelled [spelling] H-o-l-l-a-w-a-y, is that correct? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have any children? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have two children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they, and when were they born? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. The first one--Bryan will be 3 years old the 20th of +October, I think I'm right on that; and the other one was born the 10th +day of last October--he will be 1 year old. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The youngest one was born when? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Wait--I said the 20th of October--I believe that oldest +one is the 28th of October--I am sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the older child? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Bryan Douglas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was born on what date? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe it was October 28. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What year? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. And he will be 3 years old this October--he was 2 last +year--that will be 1961, wouldn't it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The other child's name is what? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Jeffery Lynn. He was born October 10, 1963. You got +me on those birthdays--I have forgotten them. I believe October 28 is +right--I'm not just real sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you formerly operated a used +furniture store in Irving, Tex.; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did until about the 25th day of January of this +year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the name of that store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Furniture Mart. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. 149 East Irving Boulevard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Irving Boulevard runs east and west, does it not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the street is the furniture store on? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be on the right-hand side going west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going away from Dallas or toward Dallas? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Going west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the north side? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. The north side; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI has advised us that you have told them that +some time during 1963, you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was in your +furniture store; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell me all the circumstances surrounding that +event, to the best of your recollection? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as the date, I couldn't, you know, say +that it was any day--any special day, but it was along the first of +November. We had, you know, a discussion about the babies--that's the +reason you have that there about my baby--my grandchildren, and their +children. They had the baby with them at that time. We had at one time +had a gun shop in there. We had a gunsmith sign out in front and I +presume he had came up and saw that sign there and he stopped and came +in. We have two doors in this place of business--one was on the west +side and the west end, and one on the east end. He had pulled up there +at the front as well as I remember and he walked around his car and +came into the west door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him drive up in the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was +sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand--we call it there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction was he driving the car at that time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He was driving west on a one-way street--that's a one +way there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Running from east to west? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. East to west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car did he have, Mrs. Whitworth? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as I can remember--I wouldn't be--I +wouldn't say for sure. All I can say is that I believe, you know, not +paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything +at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. It was either a +Ford or a Plymouth. Now, I wouldn't swear to that, but it was either +one--the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. Anyway, he came +in and he stood---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you some questions about the car first--how +many people were in the car when you saw it drive up? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention to it--just really when it +drove up out there. When I did pay attention to it was when he got back +in it, you know, and it was faintly, you know. As to them getting back +in it, I wouldn't say that there was anyone else in it--I wouldn't say +that they were the only ones that was in it. They were the only ones +that come in the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice specifically that Oswald was driving? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that he was, and I wouldn't say that +he drove off in the car. I wouldn't say that, because, like I say, it +didn't mean anything to me at that time, just faintly, I would say that +that car was blue and white, two-tone, and that it was either a Ford or +a Plymouth--now, I wouldn't swear to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, he drove up in front of the store and he got out of +the car and came in--which door--did he come in? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came in the west door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He came in the west door? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. West door; he came in and he stood right in front of +me there, and I arose up out of my chair and asked him, you know, if +I could help him and he asked for something for a gun, and he had +whatever this was wrapped up and it was about so long, as well as I +can remember, not paying too much attention to it at that time, but +we didn't have the gunshop in there then. It had gone out of business +and I told him, no, I didn't have anything there, and whatever he was +looking for--that I didn't have it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say, "so long," you held your hands up and +how many inches was that--would you hold your hands up again? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH [indicating]. I would say it was about like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many inches do you think that is? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I would say about 15 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 15 inches? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's what I would say. You know, just judging it. +It could have been longer and it could have been shorter, but it was +wrapped up, I know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have occasion to open it up for you while he +was in the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ask you about a specific part for it? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he did. But I don't know what it was because I +didn't pay any attention to it because it was something, you know, for +a gun and I couldn't help him, so I didn't pay any attention to it, you +know, because I never worked in a gunshop anyway and I know nothing +about guns whatever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How come he came into this used furniture shop looking +for a gun part? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I had a sign--I mean, I had had a gun shop in +there, a man had leased part of my store and he had a gunshop in there, +one part of it, but he had been moved for quite a while, but the sign +hadn't been taken down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, there was still a sign on the front of the building +saying that there was a gunshop there? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell me what are the other circumstances? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. And when I told him that I didn't have anything--I +didn't have what he was looking for, but I probably told him where +he could go get it. I don't remember that I did, but I usually would +tell someone where they could go to get such a thing and he turned +around and he looked and he realized, I guess, that it was a furniture +store and he said, "You have furniture in here?" I said, "Yes, I do." +He says, "I'm going to need some in a couple of weeks or so," and I +said, "Well, I'll be glad to show you what I have." I had new and +used furniture and he wanted bedroom furniture, he told me that, and +he turned--he went back to the car and came back in and when he came +back in his wife followed him in with the young baby and the little +girl and we walked straight to the back of the building where I had +the bedroom suites and I showed him the bedroom suites and I told him +about the bedroom suites and I noticed that he would look over to her +and she would never--she never uttered a word and I thought she didn't +like what I had and was uninterested, because I didn't, you know, high +pressure them to sell them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were they interested in new furniture or used furniture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I never did get that far along to find out, you +know, what they wanted, because she acted like she wasn't interested, +you know, and I couldn't talk to him and he was the only one saying +anything, and then we got talking about the babies. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that conversation about? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, we was comparing the birthdays of the children +and my grandchildren had birthdays kind of similar to theirs, you +know, and so it went even so far as to--I said, "Well, we wanted a +little girl. We wanted one of ours to be a little girl." He said, he +wanted one of his to be a little boy and just jokingly, I said, "Well, +let's just swap then." And, he kind of smiled but she still didn't +say anything, didn't even offer to show us the baby. We didn't know +then, you know, that she couldn't even speak, or probably couldn't +understand what we said, so she walked clear away from us and we walked +back toward the front of the building there and she walked out ahead +of him--the little girl was right in front of her, you know, and this +was the older little girl, and they went on to the car and the little +girl was kind of whining and at one time I thought--well, I'll offer +her a piece of candy. I had candy in there, you know, but I never did, +I never did offer them any candy and they went on off, but it was them +just as sure as I'm sitting here--I'm sure it was him and her too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In this conversation about the babies, did they tell +you--did this man tell you when his little baby had been born? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was 2 weeks old. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was 2 weeks old at that time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he told you it was 2 weeks old? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the date on which the baby was born? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He probably did at that time, but I don't know--the +date on that kind of corresponded with the date of the birthday of my +oldest grandson there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection as to whether or not he told +you the date or not; is that correct? Or you just don't remember the +date--do you remember whether he told you or not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm sure that he told me. I just don't remember the +date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you by saying, "Well, the baby is 2 weeks +old," or did he tell you specifically that the baby was born on such +and such a date; do you remember? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure he +told me the date at that time but the baby was 2 weeks old and I judge +that he would have been in the store around the 4th, 5th, or 6th of +November, because we were fixing to go to a ball game, this lady and +I, and I have a son that plays football for Irving High School and we +were going on to the football game and that's how come this lady to be +in there. You know, we were planning to go together or get tickets to +the football game and it had to be along in there--the first week in +November. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember a specific football game that you +were going to see; is that how you fixed the date as early in November? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what ball game that would have been? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It probably was Richland Hills that we were going to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Richland Hills was going to play who? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Irving, and we were going to Richland Hills--that's a +Fort Worth team. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made any efforts, since this question came up, +to find out the exact date on which the Richland Hills team played the +Irving team, did you go back and look it up? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did at one time, but I couldn't tell you +what the date was now, except that it was a Friday night. It was going +to be on Friday and it was before that Friday. Now, Mrs. Hunter might +be able to tell you that. I didn't go back and try to review anything +before I come over here. At that time, you know, I knew what game it +was, but I haven't reviewed it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did I understand you to say correctly that there was a +friend of yours that was in the store at the time they were there? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Mrs. Hunter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did I also understand you to say correctly that Mrs. +Hunter was there for the purpose of getting tickets to go to the +football game? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. We were planning a trip, you know, to this football +game. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mrs. Hunter ordinarily come into the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she did--I had just begun to know her, you know, +and it all come about through school doings and all, and I usually got +her tickets or she got my tickets when we were going to travel to a +game or so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix a day of the week any more specifically than +you have as to when this might have occurred? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't--no; I couldn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Hunter come in usually on a particular day or +did she just come in from time to time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she said she did--for some reason why or other, +but to me, I couldn't fix any certain day, you know, working in the +public like I did and all that. I couldn't, you know, not meaning +anything at that time--I couldn't put a date on it, you know, what +day she come or anything. Usually, the tickets would go on sale on a +Tuesday or Wednesday, if they were going to travel to play, and I have +my tickets to the home games, you know, and she could say what day it +was, but I couldn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this particular ball game going to be played at +Richland Hills; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you were talking about getting the tickets and were +going on over to Richland Hills? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. To this game. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you said Lee Oswald--the Oswalds were in your store +on the weekend preceding the game? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't the weekend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the week? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. During the week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right; during the week preceding the weekend on which +Richland Hills played Irving. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by two agents of the +FBI about the middle of December on this whole question? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. On a Saturday; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Saturday, December 14, 1963. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do remember; it was a Saturday that they came out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember the names of the agents? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't. They were just two tall fellows and I +don't even know the names--I didn't take them down and I didn't think +it was that important. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling those two men specifically that +when this man's wife came in, when Oswald's wife came in, that Oswald +told you that his youngest child had been born on October 20, 1963? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Probably so--somewhere, you know, it was along that +time, but you know it has been so long now that I have forgotten the +dates. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember telling the FBI agents specifically +the date October 20, 1963? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe so. Now, like I say, I wouldn't swear to that +but if I told them, that's what he had told me. I haven't reviewed +this, like I say, before I come over here, so I'm just telling you what +I think absolutely is true--the truth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right; and I want to try and find the state of your +recollection as to just what this man told you about the date of birth +of this young child, and if you remember specifically that he told you +that the child was born October 20, 1963, I want you to tell me that, +and if you can't remember that, I want you just to say that and it is +very important that you give me the exact state of your recollection on +that. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, I'm not going to say that I remember him telling +me that because it has been too long ago, you know, it has been too +long back to say it was October 20--like when I come over here and you +asked me my grandson's birthday that I had forgotten and there is too +much that goes through my mind in that length of time. We talked about +it and I'm sure he told me the birthdays of the babies, but it has been +too long now and I wouldn't say that he told me October 20, but the +baby was 2 weeks old when he was in the store and it was the first week +in November that he was in the store and I don't know what date that +would have been that he was in the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store besides you and Mrs. +Hunter and this man Oswald and the wife and the two little children +during this time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't believe there was. There was someone out in +front of the store, you know, there always was. I remember something +about that, but I wouldn't swear that there was anyone out there in +front, any particular person out in front, but there usually was two +or three men that kind of hung around there because that was on the +corner and had been the bus station and, you know, people just walk in +and walk out there, you know, and they ask for information for first +one thing and another, you know, in my store and I was always real good +about giving them information and like I probably told him where he +could go get the gun part he was looking for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you directed him to another +gunshop or not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Just to be sure about it, I don't know now, but I'm +just almost sure that I did if he asked me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where you told him to go? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. If I directed him, it would have been east of me, +probably at the Irving Sports Shop or even down on the highway at some +pawnshop or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns the Irving Sports Shop? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Woodrow Greener. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Oh, I have known Woodrow for about 20 years, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a good friend of his or close to him at all? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't say real close--I just knew him. He had +been in and out of business there for a number of years and I have +lived in Irving all of my life, so I wouldn't say I was a real close +friend to him--I just know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a young man by the name of Dial Ryder? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't know Dial Ryder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Ryder now; have you met him since that time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever discussed this series of events with Mr. +Greener? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did discuss it with Mr. Greener over the +telephone and Woodrow Greener was out of town. He said at that time he +probably was, but he was gone deer hunting, you know, he hunts, and he +and his wife were out of town at that time because we talked about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you talk to Mr. Greener about this; do you +remember? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. When the FBI men came out there and talked to me on the +Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On that same Saturday? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any discussion with Mr. Greener at +any time about this at all prior to the time in November when the FBI +talked to you; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not until the FBI talked to me, you know, I didn't talk +to him or anything, but I called Woodrow on the telephone and told him +and the FBI men were in his store at that time when I called him and +that was the only time he told me, but I don't think I was even in town +at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you read the newspaper, generally speaking? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspapers do you read? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I take them all--I read them all. I take the +Dallas Morning News and I take the Times Herald out of Dallas and then +I have the Irving papers too and I read them all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that shortly after the assassination, +around Thanksgiving time, as a matter of fact, there was a story in the +Dallas Times Herald to the effect that Oswald had had some work done on +his rifle in the Irving Sports Shop? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I read that and I also saw it on television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw that, it was also reported on television; is +that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it sure did. As well as I can remember it, it +showed this Ryder, or whatever his name was, working around there and +talking to the men. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the first person you ever discussed Oswald's +presence in your store with? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never discussed it until I saw him on television and +also his wife. First, when I saw him on television I told my husband, +but my husband didn't work in the store, then, he worked at another +furniture store on down on the east end of the road, you know, and I +told him, I said, "Why, I have seen the fellow somewhere before," and +it didn't dawn on me at that minute where. He says, "Well, you have +probably seen him in the store." Just like that. I mean, anybody would +come through Irving and be looking for anything like that would more +than likely stop in my store quicker than they would any other place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking for furniture, you mean? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, if he was looking for a gun or anything like that +he would stop in there because this sign was a real good sign, you +know, it was and out there, and also it was a good furniture location. +So he said "You probably have," and we didn't discuss it any more until +we saw her on television, Mrs. Oswald, and she was leaving the jail or +something, with her mother-in-law and had these two babies. I said, +"Oh, yes, I remember them real well," and I discussed it again with him +and I told him about this and I said that those kids are about the age +of Bryan and Jeff and we discussed it again and then I knew definitely +he had been in there and I knew that he was the fellow that I talked +to, and I said, "Well, he seemed to be such a nice man." He even +thanked me for my time when he walked out--you know, he thanked me for +the time I had spent with him, more so than anyone else. I mean, very +few people will thank anyone for their time in a store like that, you +know, but he did. He thanked me for his time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that a newspaper reporter came into your +store one day and talked to you about this? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. A lady. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was before the FBI men came and talked to me and I +don't have her name, but one of the FBI men called me and asked me if I +remembered her name and I don't. The only thing, she came in a little +foreign car and another gentleman was driving the car for her and she +showed me her credentials, just who she was, and she told me she was a +White House correspondent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember her name if I suggested it to you? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know whether I would or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Coleman, does that seem familiar to you? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Might have been. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when she came by, was that after you had +seen Ryder on television telling about Oswald? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; that was before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was before? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell this lady reporter the same story you +told us--exactly? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; and she took it down at that time and this +gentleman that was with her, he had a tape recorder and he took down +everything that I said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They took it down on a tape recorder? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he sure did, and she wrote it down in a little +notebook, you know, but she accidentally stopped in the store. I had +never told anyone, you know, had ever made the statement to anybody +that he was in there. Of course, it was discussed, I'm sure, to people +that I knew, you know, I said, "Well, I had seen him," but there are a +lot of people in Irving I'm sure that had seen him and his wife both. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you after you became aware of the fact +that Oswald had been in your store asking for some repairs about a gun +that you should call the FBI or the Dallas Police Department and tell +them about this? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it really didn't. I just figured I would wait and +see if anybody got to looking for him. I didn't contact anyone. I +waited until they contacted me. I didn't know where I could be any help +to them at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, the Oswalds walked out of the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you said Mrs. Oswald, I believe, and the +children went out first; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were ahead of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long was Oswald in the store--how long did he stay in +the store after they left? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he followed them right on out, but they were in +line. She started out before he did, with the children, and the little +girl--the little 2-year-old, you know, was ahead of all of them and +I had a little stepoff there and the mother kind of waited until she +stepped off of that, but Oswald himself never did help her with the +children or anything like that while she was in the store, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And during the time they were in the store she didn't say +one word? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. She never uttered one word that I knew about. I +caught him at one time looking at her and I kind of felt like they +were exchanging glances or something like that, you know, but she +never uttered one word, either whether she liked it or whether she +didn't like it, and I made the remark after they left, after we talked +about trading the children, you know, jokingly, and I said to Mrs. +Hunter, "Well, I don't think she liked what I said about trading those +children," and she didn't offer to show us the baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You made quite a fuss over the children, I presume? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I am a great hand to notice children. I just +really am, you know, and I always felt like it was one way to get in +touch with the customer--is to brag on the children, you know. The +closer you get to them the better off you are when you are trying to +sell them something, and really, I was, you know, interested in selling +him furniture when he told me he needed it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about this little 3-year-old girl, did she seem to be +an ordinarily developed girl---she could walk around and everything? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was pretty. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything at all? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. She mumbled--as she went out of the store she was about +halfway crying, not really crying, but mumbling something. I couldn't +understand her or anything, and that's the reason that at one time +I thought--well, I'll hand her a piece of candy, but then I didn't +because a lot of people don't like you to give their children candy and +the woman hadn't been friendly enough with me to make me really want +to, but I really would have liked to have given the little girl some +candy. She was a beautiful little child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the little girl say anything you could understand at +all? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she just kind of whined like, you know, it might +have been that she was a little cowed or something--I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as they walked out of the store, did you see them +get in the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did, but I didn't pay much attention to +them--to remember how they did--I didn't--it was just like anybody +else walking out of the store, you know, I didn't see them get in the +car. I'm sure they got in a car and I just faintly remember that maybe +that that car was a two-tone car and that they got in there and drove +off and like I say, I don't know how they got into the car, because I +didn't pay too much attention to them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see where they went when they got in the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay too much attention. Mrs. Hunter said they +went back the wrong way down the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably saw it but I didn't--I wouldn't say that +they did because I don't know. So many people pull that stunt anyway +and it was just everyday, you know, people make mistakes on that street +all the time about going the wrong way and I had seen numbers of them +going the wrong way and if they did go, the wrong way, you know, I +don't remember it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't such an extraordinary thing to have that happen? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; but what was, you know, out of the ordinary +person--not talking. I'm friendly--I'm just a real friendly person and +going on over the babies--I would have liked to have looked at the +baby and all. That was what stuck with me more than anything else, you +know, the way she acted and him too. He was nothing out of the ordinary +except that he thanked me for his time, you know, that he had taken, +and I suggested furniture to him and tried to find out what kind they +were looking for and they weren't quite ready for it and it was going +to be a couple of weeks before they moved out and he told me that they +were living in an apartment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him. So many people would come in the store, +you know, to buy furniture you know, and try to get it as cheap as they +could because they were living in a furnished apartment, so I usually +asked them if they were in apartments or something, and he told me they +were and I know they wanted bedroom furniture, because I took them back +there and showed them bedroom furniture. They also had to have living +room furniture and I asked him what type of furniture and I said, +"So many people are using Early American or Danish Modern." I mean, +young people were using a lot of that Danish Modern and I couldn't +get anything out of her even after suggesting that and I thought if I +suggested that that they would tell me what they were looking for, but +I never did find out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say where they lived? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he said they were living in an apartment? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were living in an apartment--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you hear subsequent to that time on television +that Oswald and his wife weren't living together? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I heard, yes; you know--after the assassination, I +mean, but even at that time I never asked him his name or anything +like that. If I had carried out what I usually do, I would have gotten +his name, because if they are looking for anything that I don't +have--didn't have in the store, I would suggest that they let me give +them a card, you know, to go to the wholesale house. Had I given them +a card to the wholesale house, he would have had to give me his name. +You see, I didn't get that far along on it. I mean, you know, and I +just didn't--I wished I had now, but she sure was with him, whether she +knew where she was going or what she was doing or anything, but she +certainly was with him. Even, you know, her dress and all--as far as +telling you what color she had on--I could tell you just about how she +was dressed. She looked clean but she looked like she was a person that +had gotten in the car to come up to town for something and she probably +come out of the house with just the dress she had on and a short coat, +and the little girl had on some kind of a short coat. It wasn't really +cold--it wasn't real cold then and he had on slacks. He didn't have on +what I call really work clothes--he wasn't dressed--but he had on a +pair of slacks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt did he have on? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It was a sport coat, I think, with the collar turned +back and he had on a sweater, you know, deal. They weren't dressed, +you know, really dressed, but they were dressed good enough to go out, +you know, to kind of casual shop or something like that--that kind of +shopping. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure that they drove up at first in an +automobile and that they went back out and got into an automobile and +drove away? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; they did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The report that I have of the interview you had with the +FBI agents in December indicates that you told them that they went out +of the store and got into the car and made a =U=-turn and drove off +east down Irving Boulevard. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, where I got that--I wouldn't swear that they +really went down, you know, turned their car there--Mrs. Hunter told me +that they did, you know, and kind of reviewed me at that time, but so +many people did that anyway that they went back down the wrong way. + +It has been so long now I have, you know, really forgotten whether they +did or not, but you know, the color of the car and the make of the car +stands out more to me than anything. There was only one correct way for +them to go and that was west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't at any time see anybody else with them? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't swear to it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see anyone--no. They didn't get out of the +car, let me put it that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car close enough at any time to see +whether there was anybody else sitting in the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have seen it, but I didn't pay any attention to +it. They could have had a driver--I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a station wagon that was sitting +out there? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm not sure--I'm really not, but it does not seem like +it was. Had I known all this was coming up I would have took it all +down, but you know, people--when you are in business, you don't pay +a lot of attention to that, but there are incidents that happen that +will, you know, be clear in your mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit +No. 453-A, and I ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't--no; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph that has been marked Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-B, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know this one either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody in there either? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not as far as I see it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, do you see +anybody in there that looks familiar? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't identify anyone in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Garner Exhibit No. 1, does that person +look familiar to you? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That one does? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And is that the same man that came in the store that day? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he looked younger in the store than he does there. +Of course, there's the shadow that's on him there that causes him to +look that way, but he does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the man that came in the store--do +you have any doubt about it? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but what it wasn't +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you this one--Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, that looks more like him--he was more pleasant +looking in the store than he is in these pictures here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Commission +Exhibit No. 171, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Huh. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you recognize there? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Oswald is there, I mean, his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that's the woman that was in the store that +day? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; but of course she's not dressed there like she +was, but that's her and that's the little girl and the little girl +wasn't dressed like that either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you a photograph marked Commission +Exhibit No. 177 and I ask you if you recognize anybody in there? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, that's his wife there, isn't it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the woman that was in the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was attractive even then, I mean, she was a +pretty girl then, of course, when she came in the store she wore her +hair just right back and had it in a pony tail back that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have short hair or long hair? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. She had long hair and had enough that she could tie it +back here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about that man sitting in the middle there of +Commission Exhibit No. 177, does he look familiar to you? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he kind of resembles him--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look something like the man that was in the +store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; the one sitting there with her? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; here is another picture that has been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 172, and I ask you if you recognize any of the +people in that picture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's Mrs. Oswald there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man? Does that man look like the man that +was there in the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it resembles him. Of course, if I could see +him right in the face, you know, like I looked at him--the features +are---like him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and in Exhibit No. 177, of course, he does present a +full face. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That looks more like him there, you know, it really +does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, the testimony that you have given to +us about this event is of considerable importance to the Commission for +many reasons that are not, I'm sure, even clear to you at the moment. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be willing to come back again on Friday morning +and meet with Marina Oswald and the children to see if those really +were the people that were in your store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. This Friday morning? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I like you to put it up early enough--I go to work at +12 on Friday and if you would make it real early, and I have another +appointment real early Friday morning that I could put off, I guess, or +maybe do it in the morning. I have an appointment to get my hair fixed +on Friday and I have that every Friday morning and I go to work at 12 +and I would like for this not to interfere any more than is possible, +you know, with my job. I work for J. C. Penney's there in Plymouth Park +and they are real nice. They have given me time off because they had +to, you know, but I would rather it not interfere with that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time would be convenient for you on Friday +morning--about 9 o'clock? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would like to meet with her--that would be all right. +Really, I would like to meet with her one time, you know, to--of +course, I have only seen her on television and I saw her there at the +store and I would like for her to tell me that she went into that +store. I believe she would if she's telling what she did--she might not +recognize me now, you know, out of the store, but I believe that woman +would tell you that she went in that store if she saw that store. I +believe she would--that little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark +headed girl, and at that time she wore--she had her bangs cut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know; I have never seen the little girl. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she was real attractive and I am attracted to +little girls, you know, I just love them. Of course, I love little +boys, too, you understand, because I've got one of them, but little +girls--mine--I used to sew for them and I have always wanted another +little girl and I always made over little girls more so than I did +little boys, that that little girl, as well as I remember, she had +straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a +real cute child, but I would really like to meet with them again and I +would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. She would +remember it; I'm sure that she would remember it. There isn't any doubt +in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then, we will meet with you again at 9 o'clock on Friday +morning. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By the way, how long would you say that the husband and +wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second +time? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, 30 or 40 minutes--maybe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was during the time that they were looking at +furniture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the +car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My question is: From the time that he went back out and +she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'd say 30 or 40 minutes, which is a long time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and did she seem interested in any of the +furniture--what did she do during this 30 or 40 minute period? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she walked back where we were and I had moved +some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and +as well as I remember, I had a little red maple suite back there and +I had some dark walnut suites and I was showing them used furniture +because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she +stood there and looked and, like I say, the little girl was whining +around and I would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of +look up and down but I never did see her--I never did catch her but I +thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not +interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the +store and I stayed back there and I talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that there was any hostility +between these two people that they weren't getting along too well? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she just didn't say anything. She wasn't +interested in what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know, +and if they were--well--I just don't know, or I would say that there +was any misunderstanding--there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any +jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. It wouldn't be like if +I was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for +me. I believe I would be more pleasant, but you know, I guess she just +didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture +and I believe he went back to the car and told her to get out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She just didn't seem to be very interested in that +furniture? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time +you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in +and spent 30 or 40 minutes looking at furniture in a store and they +never exchanged one single word between each other? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not one single word. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That just almost defies ordinary human experience; +doesn't it? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Wouldn't you say that--usually? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had anything like that. They usually agree +or disagree and they usually exchange a few words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they usually exchange a few words. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had an occasion like that--that's the +reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. I have +waited on a lot of people in 10 years and I have had an awful lot of +people come in my store. Some of them I would recognize and some of +them I wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of +this--you just knew it was them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that +Oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a +plunger--did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking +for a plunger? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It might have been a plunger. Like I say, I don't know +a thing in the world about guns. It could have been a plunger. We have +discussed that since then and I have never said what it was that he +was looking for--whatever he had--he had in his hands. I mean, he had +something in his hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing in the store when he walked out +and they got in the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe I walked back up to where my cash--in my +cash stand and it hit me about right here and I could lean on it and +my candy stand--I would have had to walk around another bar to have +gotten to the candy because I couldn't reach over and get it and I was +standing right like this and I was looking down on them and this bar +hit me about right here [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About waist high? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. And I couldn't have went inside unless I had turned and +walked back around and that's as far as I got--was the cash register. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see the car from where you were standing? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see it drive east down Irving Boulevard +against the traffic? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that I did see it drive east--I don't +believe--we talked about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who did? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I might have made a statement one time about +that, but right now, I wouldn't say he did. There's too many cars that +drove up there that did go the wrong way, but I would say it was a blue +and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth--it +was something with fins on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say we discussed it--what do you mean by that--who is +"we"? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Hunter and I, you know, now as far as going back +down the wrong way on that street--I wouldn't swear that the man did +and I don't think that I ever made the statement that he drove off, +because I don't know that he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I quote the FBI report of your interview on December 14, +1963: "On leaving the Furniture Mart (second hand furniture store) the +Oswalds made a =U=-turn and left driving against traffic on East Irving +Boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a 1956 or +1957 two-tone blue and white Ford or Plymouth." Do you remember telling +the agents that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at +that time that they did go, but right now--I have talked with Mrs. +Hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went +on the one way street the wrong way. Now, I might have said it at that +time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that +happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it--that I could +be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what +happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you +know, I mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and +acted like that for that length of time, you know, that I'm not going +to swear that he went the wrong way and I'm not going to say that he +drove that car off from there. Like I say, it wasn't that important to +me to know that at that time because I didn't know I was going to have +to--if I had--I would have been more specific about it, but I was in +a position where I could have seen it, but we remarked after he left +about what I had said and I got no comment about it from her, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much and we will see you Friday +morning. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, EDITH WHITWORTH, AND GERTRUDE +HUNTER + +The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude +Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the +U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, +Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, +children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer, +counsel for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter; +and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. +Secret Service. + +[Note.--The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without +assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina +Oswald were through the interpreter.] + + +Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously +been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in +Washington? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the testimony that you are going to +give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to +the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under +oath as you did before the Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated +she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning +relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth +and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store +in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. [No response.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about this +and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that +time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and +have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if +they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby +is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these +two ladies saw me at that particular time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter +have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the +record further show that they have both previously testified that +sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children +and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in +Irving, Tex. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator +of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store +generally for Marina and its name. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name +was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard. +That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north +side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the +back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one +time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a +furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, +because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't +be material to me. I wouldn't remember it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. + +Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this +lady to her? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving. + +Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank +& Trust. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs. +Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me +or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the +circumstances under which you say these people came in the store. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day +and the complete circumstances. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day +until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in +the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr. +Oswald came in the store first. + +He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then +he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I +said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he +wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He +said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car +and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in +and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny +baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating +June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining +a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we +come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed +them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald +stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked, +you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, +but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I walked back +up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the +front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was +a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap +and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a +short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she +had her hair tied back. + +She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then +and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still +hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I +didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this +little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a +little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in +the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you +know. I mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. +I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car +was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth--now--I don't know. I +thought it was blue and white--I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I +mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what +happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with +and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she +wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or +anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she +was in there. + +She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her +that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me +to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was +round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating]. + +Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had +something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back +to the back. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have--it was tied back and whipped back +from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say +she was pretty. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her +attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she +was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms +and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they +left the store. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that +I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for +me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine. + +Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and +I was looking for something for a child. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all +furniture. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as +well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, +you know, I was showing you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you +know, she walked off. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but +I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked +with somebody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you +were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do +you remember how long you were in the store that time? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this +time that you are talking about? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the +store at that time? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side--on the left side and +baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever +seeing these ladies before, Marina? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I +saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like +this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something +like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women +like her--not one, but many of that type. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these +children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that +these were the people who were in the store that day? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby +came--several times. She said she saw me--do you remember talking to a +lady about getting help for you before your baby came? + +Mrs. OSWALD. For housework? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the +baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked +to Marina about this? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't +come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and +she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you +need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do +you remember that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I +know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and +it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, +I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a +tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it +was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and +was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and +I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had +separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and +she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't +know who she was or nothing about her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at +the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a +car that this man had for sale at the station or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Street--I +know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the +station, because we were looking at a car there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in +this station, Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this +particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking +just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools +in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas? + +Mrs. HUNTER. What? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound +to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. +Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth +Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving. + +Mrs. HUNTER. This was before--I would say it was in September or +October. It was before--just a little while, I know, before your baby +came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it +was pretty close--almost due time--you could tell from the way you were +carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not +badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked +like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. +The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I +thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when +the baby comes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter. + +Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name? + +Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion +that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You were there? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what were you doing in the store that morning or that +day? + +Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down +discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan +cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, +because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at +Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch +hour at 2 o'clock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football +weekend; is that correct? + +Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on that occasion when you were in the store with +Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband +buy any clothes or anything of the sort? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be +a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The +only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes +and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their +used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might +have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald +or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now--I do now--I +would know her eyes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then. + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once +on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I +wanted to be sure that this woman had the long hair, and the way it +looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the +run of it on television. + +Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the +two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did +you notice the automobile that they came in? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in +before at the filling station? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the +street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her +say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little +girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said +"shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to +the little girl. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I +shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that +drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when +this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house +and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this +place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the +note too, and when they drove up---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove +up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come," +and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just +seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform +rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part +of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there +was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door. +She had it shut and I had opened it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up +in a truck--several weeks later. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up +that they got out of? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't +up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked +over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the +floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee? + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering +wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering +wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front +of the building somewhere; isn't that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee +never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw +him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, +he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to +drive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but +the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in +that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores +where we went because we never went there without her. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges--you've got your +privileges. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were +in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here, +June, and another lady happened to be there--that was the occasion when +your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald +get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even +remember the baby being there--being in the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling +station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The other woman---- + +Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a +Salvation Army woman? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation +Army is. + +Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I +would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms +most of the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not +interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the +standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations +for the baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the +service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, +and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in +the area of the service station; is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and +she was there by herself because---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out to go into the +restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in +the area of the filling station? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell +you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling +station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with, +because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand +her and she couldn't understand me, you see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said +you saw this other woman walk into the restroom? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that +was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside +the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny +woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as +you saw her walk into the restroom? + +Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am +and a little bit taller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little bit taller than you? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I would say this woman was taller than I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much? + +Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5--how much do you think she +weighed? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it? + +Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing +beside the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a +station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because +it didn't dawn on me for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. +Oswald, in the station there that day before you saw her in the +Furniture Mart; is that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you +recognize her? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me--I didn't think a thing in the +world about it. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I +pregnant at that time? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on? + +Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. What color? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it +wasn't red. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald +several times. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her. + +Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is that? + +Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you +remember there--I think I had seen her there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop +and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about +her, but she had ribbons in here hair. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, +and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was +at the furniture store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail? + +Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in +her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the +grocery store? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or +who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it +was somebody just like me? + +Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have +no recollection of who she was with or anything like that? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes +if I was to meet her. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these +people as the people that were in your store that day? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely +sure they were in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have +been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and +all--they were there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were +there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably +about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over +here, her husband told me--Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was +2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and +they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we +discussed these two children and my two grandchildren. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but +she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray +as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the +babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in +fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he +had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We +talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show +us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything +else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them +being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking +to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one +time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the +4th, 5th, or 6th of November. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked +that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he +drive up at the store and park the car and get out? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come +up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car +and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the +car and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. +Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't +say he drove it off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it +off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked +about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all, +but all I want to say is that they were in that store that day, you +know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car +and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it +was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that, +because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a +=U=-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs. +Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about +what happened every day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday +that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it +appear to you that he was driving the car? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; +absolutely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you +remember? + +Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the +two children? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were +in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that +they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; +they wouldn't have walked up. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs. +Whitworth? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close +and around there and I had never seen them come in there before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the +assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. +I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and +everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too +far from my store to have walked up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were +living together; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, +and I asked him. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and +wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed +when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need +some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need +some--they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but +he wasn't quite ready then--he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell +you that they were living in an apartment together? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living +together; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth +missing in front? One or two teeth missing? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even +utter a word--I didn't notice it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter +had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs. +Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because +she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay +close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at +this station--very few. The only thing that I caught was right here +[indicating]. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had +a tooth out in front of their mouth? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to +nobody--only their eyes and their feet. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children +when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took +into a store? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man +came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long +wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part +for a gun; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this +package; didn't he? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part +for a gun; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped +in this package; isn't that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I would not have understood what he was +saying because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall +him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time. + +Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part? + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his +hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more; +she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, +because she followed him in and in the store--I don't see why that she +couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that +you would go in where you bought soft goods. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as +Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his +pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a +package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a +package? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any +strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a +gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like +that was in the package? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large--I'd say it might have been this big +[indicating]. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both +hands---- + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that--about 2 or 3 inches in diameter? + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long. + +Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter +and approximately 18 inches long; is that right? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right. + +Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some +particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't +remember it, you know, what he asked for. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for +the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, +pertaining to a gun. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just +what your recollection is of what he said? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best +recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't +it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store +shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; +a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it +afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she +said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure--I might have told them that I +thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought it +was; is that right? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement +that I knew exactly what it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a +plunger; isn't that a fact? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same +reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the +conversation? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my +conversation--part of it, I would say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was +to be used with or for? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you +know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street +and there had been one there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a +gunsmith sign on the door? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, +you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. +I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in +every day asking for something for a gun. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when +I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was +no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we +didn't talk about what he wanted any more. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on +your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a +plunger? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I +wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for +as being a part of a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, +or did he? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking +the gun shop and not the furniture store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing +practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned +and I had furniture all around me--dinette suites over on this side and +there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there +was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have +furniture?" I said, "Yes." + +He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All +right, I'll be glad to show you some." + +He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he +had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed +him back in and he got back in the store before she did. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have +glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you +know. She didn't utter a word. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in +approximately 2 weeks? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he +said, "Yes." + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you +showed to him, is that it? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We +talked about not having it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the +furniture that you showed him? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you +what he was looking for? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, +and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said, +"Do you like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we +exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. +He didn't say what he liked. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that +particular location before you moved in with your furniture store? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of +the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on +guns, but I knew nothing about guns. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various +nomenclature or the various parts of a gun? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. + +Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun +when this man came in? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it +was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by +that? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a +gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just +what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he +wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably +4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the +stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably +8 feet from me. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly +across, I mean? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store +other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. +Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. +Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. +Whitworth testify about this morning? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my +friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the +chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went +in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?" + +I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, +because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down +there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he +wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it was back down east on +Irving Boulevard. + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back +down there. + +Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to +go. I remember that much of it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the +other door, the door back to the back? + +Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door. + +Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain +it better that way. + +[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition +right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over +here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little +counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back +here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back +here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables +and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would +sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes +and things. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right +here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come +up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and +she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which +way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the +car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the +purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. +When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here +that I had got up and opened after I sat down there. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just +sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they +had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in +here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and +she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, +and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say. + +Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed +him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, +and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car +and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned +and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a +one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn +to your left and come back around." + +Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because +there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he +catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating]. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway +and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way, +where was Mrs. Oswald sitting? + +Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing +up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door +automobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a +two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby? + +Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and +when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't +go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red +light." + +Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then? + +Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive +the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red +light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to +the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west? + +Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile? + +Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my +friends had in Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford? + +Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a +1958. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white--yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top? + +Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my +friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question? + +[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse--yes. My hair is dark--not too dark. + +Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you. + +Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler]. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we +certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very +much. + +Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason +I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing +Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are +very sweet. + +(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't. + +Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, +she take me to the store. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my +time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering +committee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that +the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in +Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or +the 3d of November or September? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week +that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this +store--it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving +on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the +assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You +know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then? + +Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job. + +Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there +during the week other than weekends. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he +had no job. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came--only once before +Rachel was born during the week. + +Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come +during the week up until the time he got a job? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time +after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born? + +Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the +19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He +sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see +Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he +spent the night in her house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you +remember? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is +that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take +me from the hospital. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half +days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after +work? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back +to work on Tuesday morning? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or +to take you home; is that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on +Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the +week except the night before the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that +he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his +job; was that just after he came back from Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, +and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for +work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he +got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume +at 1:30 p.m. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + +The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald +prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack +on General Walker; is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. +He burned it or disposed of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when you first saw the notebook? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something +in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his +room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left +the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside +and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, +he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess +around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room +and look around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he +shot at General Walker? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night. + +Mr. McKENZIE. After? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you +know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book +prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was +writing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at +the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that +correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I +did not see the book or look at it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him +destroy the book; is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it +burning; is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book +several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that +book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, +he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him +what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of +the house of General Walker's--his residence." + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. The size--it looked like this size of paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size +notebook--this size. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size +pad; is that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying +this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the +apartment when he went to shoot General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the +apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot +General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I +asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he +answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the +details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of +the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the +location, and the distribution of windows in it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing +it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the +time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it +to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my +supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that +the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be +evidence in the house such as this book. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say? + +Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Both. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff +in the house--this book. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book +after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it +would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, +he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and +took it away and hid it somewhere? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle +because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker +and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on +Wednesday. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday. + +Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when +Lee brought the rifle back home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle +back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy +he book? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he +brought the rifle home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the +book? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before +he actually went to shoot General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out +of the book when he destroyed it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he +burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives +and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I +know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got +the originals or whether they made them from the negatives. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by +"they?" + +Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of +one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the +assassination. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which +you were speaking? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that +it was this. + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there +was a license plate number on this car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license +plate number on the car? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a +black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this +picture the number was there. + +Mr. McKENZIE. License plate? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there +at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI +first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the +number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black +spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there +was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have +remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where +the license plate would be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has +a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative? + +Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather +than from a negative? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture. + +Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture---- + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that +there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General +Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was +actually on that car when you saw the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it +if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot +but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original +photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right +through the photograph. + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to +me--I'm positive of it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard +about a hole in the original photograph. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because +Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which +is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did +it have a hole in the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this +picture, had it been folded? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture--the FBI or the Secret Service +or the Commission? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture +in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's +license plate would be? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because +when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here. + +Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away +why that hole is there or the black spot. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please. + +(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that +the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print +from the original photograph.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you +have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the +automobile? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in +it? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident +that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should +know that you can remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember +anything else now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that +Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in +a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he +left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he +had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been +found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at +General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for +what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised +me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be +caught in connection with the Walker affair? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I +couldn't read his mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take +when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then +autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker +thing at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to +shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly +picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the +newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the +time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He +must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed +with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a +taxicab? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall +of 1962 except this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we +quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the +furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At no time? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the +Meller's house the next day? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought +some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from +Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the +things from the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before +Mohrenschildt brought the things there? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De +Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. +Ford's? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and took these things, they +filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of +things? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the +Fords' house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had +brought to Anna Meller's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt +moved these things for you, what day of the week? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you +remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know where you went the night you left him? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were? + +Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's +and he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked +him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we +could discuss the things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to take the things to Anna Meller's, De +Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De +Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And left? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took +things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what +transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, +because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to +tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went +away? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not +know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was +busy gathering the things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion +between Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking +together--talking English and I didn't understand them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or +in English? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving +Lee this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he +would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did +not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I +wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I +wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I +would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was +displeased--unhappy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the +dictionary that he had given you; didn't he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning +differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you +were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in +and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been +beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that +you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. +He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I +came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at +Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house +at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to +his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's +and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De +Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on +a bus. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De +Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's +car? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this +confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first +or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do +remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt +and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they +came later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this +morning--what was said there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way +to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do +you remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by +the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee +goes with us or if he goes first. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on +Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for +the baby? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things +up? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he +came out to Anna Ray's and met you there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he +came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went +back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna +Meller's the first time? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time--Anna Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the +spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried +to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I +really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you +don't want to tell us about it--all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and +told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only +foolish people would do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you +actually try? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes;--I have that now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in +the Dallas Morning News? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the +diary? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your +office--I'm sorry. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a +copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy +of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, +and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., +first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of +the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, +Inc. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this +correct? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it +from Time-Life, Inc.? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give +them permission to publish the diary? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, +myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first +place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of +publishing the diary? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas +Morning News got the diary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas +Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other +than that, I can't say anything. + +Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they +got it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life +magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was +negotiated between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, +Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a +difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a +Communist? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. What? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes +me no difference. + +Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is +that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of +the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a +party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of +the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a +member of the party. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That's all. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself +what he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go +out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your +recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we +will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this +store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable. + +(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and +Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell +Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels +in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, +walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and +while standing in front of the store the following proceedings were +had:) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition +in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record +will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. +Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here +at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, +and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's +recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and +looked through the inside? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before--I am quite sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you +heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's right. She told how I was dressed with a rose +jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here--maybe she saw me on the street +somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's +the reason why I wanted to see this store, but maybe I have forgotten +by now---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at +149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No. + +*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't +recall it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever +been before? + +*Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the +deposition. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MAJ. EUGENE D. ANDERSON + +The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken at 4:30 p.m., on +July 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of +the President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding +of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President +Kennedy, and that our witnesses today are Maj. Eugene D. Anderson and +M. Sgt. James A. Zahm of the U.S. Marine Corps who have been asked to +testify about their knowledge of the capabilities of a marksman using a +rifle with a scope. + +With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand, Major +Anderson and raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear that +the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this +deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Major ANDERSON. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state you full name for the record please. + +Major ANDERSON. Eugene D. Anderson. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, sir? + +Major ANDERSON. I am a major in the U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps. + +Major ANDERSON. Twenty-six years 3 months. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist? + +Major ANDERSON. I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, +Headquarters Marine Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where is your current duty station? + +Major ANDERSON. In Navy Annex, Headquarters Marine Corps, Washington, +D.C. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you held that position? + +Major ANDERSON. I have been stationed here for 2 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your qualifications, if any, in +marksmanship? + +Major ANDERSON. I have been working in marksmanship training for +approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine +Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the qualifications or tests +which must be achieved in order to qualify as a distinguished shot? + +Major ANDERSON. A man must have acquired a minimum of 30 points from +winning medals in certain specified high-caliber matches. To win +these points he must have placed among the top 10 percent of the +nondistinguished shooters participating in the match. By winning a gold +medal he can earn 10 points. By winning a silver medal he can earn +eight points. By winning a bronze medal he can win six points. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what qualifications must be displayed to obtain the +classification as master of the National Rifle Association of America? + +Major ANDERSON. You have to fire in a minimum number of National Rifle +Association sponsored matches. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Major ANDERSON. I want to correct the record. + +Mr. SPECTER. Proceed to do so. + +Major ANDERSON. I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle +Association. I am not classified with the rifle. + +Mr. SPECTER. And does your classification as a distinguished marksman +apply to the rifle? + +Major ANDERSON. To the rifle, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document which has heretofore been +introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 239. + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you have heretofore had an opportunity to +examine that document? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you describe for the record what that document +is, please? + +Major ANDERSON. This is a U.S. rifle, caliber 30, M-1 and U.S. carbine, +caliber 30, M-1-A1 record scorebook that is maintained by a shooter +who is training for firing for qualification or requalification in the +Marine Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that a standard record scorebook which the Marine Corps +makes available to every Marine who shoots under those circumstances? + +Major ANDERSON. It was standard at the time of issuance of this +particular book. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was that time? + +Major ANDERSON. In December 1956. + +Mr. SPECTER. And does the name of any specific Marine appear on the +front page of that document? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; Oswald. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are there any initials? + +Major ANDERSON. It appears to be "L. H." + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which +a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training? + +Major ANDERSON. He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks' training +period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic +training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and +aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger. + +He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of +exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the +positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over +the qualification course. Normally in about the middle of the second +week or the latter part of the second week he conducts some firing with +a .22 rifle and .22 pistol to familiarize himself with live ammunition +and to give the coaches an opportunity to check on his previous +training. He then proceeds to the rifle range and he zeros the rifle in +normally at 200 yards. + +This consists of a few rounds being fired at a target, and the sights +are changed so that at this particular range, either 200 or 300 yards, +this rifle will strike the bull's-eye at the sight setting so indicated +when there is no wind blowing and all the conditions for firing are +ideal. + +Then the following week he goes out to the range and he fires over the +course completely, consisting of firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. He +will normally fire possibly 60 rounds the first day, which is 10 rounds +over the required amount to fire the course. This firing is normally +done at 200 yards. The following days, possibly the second or third day +he may fire as much as 70 rounds each day, giving him an opportunity to +acquire more practice with the gun, and to get a better opportunity to +find out the zero of his weapon and where the strike of his bullet is +going to be under any given circumstances. + +Then on Thursday he will fire preliminary day, in which he will fire +over the course one time under all circumstances exactly as he will do +the following day for record day, except that on preliminary day he is +allowed to have a coach on the range with him on the firing line to +assist him in all phases. + +The following day on record day, he fires over the course 50 rounds +for his qualification score record. At this time the coach may give +him any assistance possible as long as he is behind the firing line. +Once he steps onto the firing line, assumes the firing position, then +he is completely on his own. He cannot be helped by any gestures or +comments or in any way given any assistance from anyone whatsoever. He +completes this firing and the score that he attains then becomes his +qualification score. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that training program in effect during 1956? + +Major ANDERSON. With some possible minor deviations, yes. Generally +speaking this is exactly what he would have done in 1956. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that training then necessarily have preceded the +compilation of a marksmanship test as is reflected in the document +which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 239? + +Major ANDERSON. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean? + +Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps I can rephrase it. Would your presumption be that +L. H. Oswald, whose test score you have before you, would have received +the training such as that which you have just described? + +Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He fired every day according to this. The +only exception might be that if he was required to go to the sick bay +for some minor treatment, and missed maybe an hour a day or some sort +of thing such as that. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the basis for your statement on that would be your +conclusion based on the fact that L. H. Oswald had undergone a test +where he completed these documents under the category of "US Marine +Corps Scorebook for US Rifle Caliber .30 M-1 and US Carbine Caliber .30 +M-1-A1?" + +Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; this document shows by dates and days as +indicated that he fired daily and sighted in his rifle as prescribed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you didn't know Mr. Oswald personally? + +Major ANDERSON. I never knew him whatsoever. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that your conclusion as to his training is based upon +the inference which arises from the document which I have presented +to you. That is to say, you know that if a man has one of those +scorebooks, that he must have received that training? + +Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He received this in full. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that document have some record of practicing as well +as actual scoring in it, Major Anderson? + +Major ANDERSON. This record shows that on Thursday of the week +preceding the record firing week, he fired approximately 10 rounds +which were not scored, appear to be zeroing in shots. There is no day +here to indicate any firing on Friday. Monday is shown of the following +week with a 10 shot group, and shows that he fires the entire course on +Monday throughout. + +Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now show you a letter which I have +marked for the purpose of this deposition as Anderson Exhibit No. 1, +and ask you for the record to tell us what is the date of that letter, +first of all? + +Major ANDERSON. 8 January 1964. + +(Major Anderson Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. To whom is the letter addressed? + +Major ANDERSON. Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the letter written? + +Major ANDERSON. The signature shows it was from A. G. Folsom, Jr., +lieutenant colonel, U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity heretofore to examine that +letter? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And whom does that letter concern itself with? + +Major ANDERSON. The letter concerns a Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. SPECTER. Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter contain with it the marksmanship practice +which Mr. Oswald had while in the Marine Corps? + +Major ANDERSON. It so indicates; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the procedure of the Marine Corps in retaining +such information on men who were in the Corps and had marksmanship +training? + +Major ANDERSON. Any time a man goes through any type of live firing, +the type of firing, the number of rounds he has fired, the course he +has fired is supposed to be and supposedly is entered in his record +book in the spaces provided for his training? + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by live firing, sir? + +Major ANDERSON. By live firing I mean any time a live round of +ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or +heavy firing? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing +in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. A man just simulates that he +is firing the gun. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter set forth the marksmanship practice which +Mr. Oswald had in the Marine Corps? + +Major ANDERSON. It does; yes. It shows that he had the course A firing +and followed by "fam" firing in the B course. + +Mr. SPECTER. By "fam" firing, what does that mean? + +Major ANDERSON. This is sharp terminology for familiarization firing +and it is used to familiarize a man with the weapon prior to his being +armed with said weapon. + +Mr. SPECTER. And on what date was the A course registered? + +Major ANDERSON. 21 December 1956. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used? + +Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was his final qualification there? + +Major ANDERSON. 212. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what +range of rating is that score? + +Major ANDERSON. That should have been a sharpshooter. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance? + +Major ANDERSON. 400 rounds for recruit firing. + +Mr. SPECTER. And during what period was that? + +Major ANDERSON. That was to be fired within a 2-week period. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he have exposure on another course for M-1 firing at a +later date? + +Major ANDERSON. The record shows that 6 May 1959 he fired the B course. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used at that time? + +Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what score was obtained on that occasion? + +Major ANDERSON. 191 for marksman. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance? + +Major ANDERSON. 200 rounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any reason why the scores might differ from +212 to 191, based on the layout of the courses or any of the conditions +surrounding those tests, Major Anderson? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; the day the 212 was fired appears to be according +to the record book to have been an ideal day under firing conditions. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say the record book you meant Commission Exhibit +No. 239 that you referred to? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; when he fired that he had just completed a +very intensive preliminary training period. He had the services of +an experienced highly trained coach. He had high motivation. He had +presumably a good to excellent rifle and good ammunition. We have +nothing here to show under what conditions the B course was fired. It +might well have been a bad day for firing the rifle--windy, rainy, +dark. There is little probability that he had a good, expert coach, and +he probably didn't have as high a motivation because he was no longer +in recruit training and under the care of the drill instructor. There +is some possibility that the rifle he was firing might not have been as +good a rifle as the rifle that he was firing in his A course firing, +because may well have carried this rifle for quite some time, and it +got banged around in normal usage. + +Mr. SPECTER. What are the differences between the A and B courses, +Major Anderson? + +Major ANDERSON. The A course is fired at 200, 300, and 500 yards. The B +course is exactly the same course as far as targets, number of rounds +and positions are concerned, but it is fired entirely at 200 yards. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there compensations in the scoring to allow for the +difference in distances? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes; there is. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarity with weapons did Mr. Oswald possess +according to that document identified as Anderson Exhibit No. 1? + +Major ANDERSON. On 17 December 1956 he fired the Browning Automatic +Rifle familiarization 75 rounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any score indicated on that firing? + +Major ANDERSON. There will be no scores indicated for familiarization +firing. It is not scored. + +Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarization? + +Major ANDERSON. On 11 December 1956 he fired the pistol familiarization +100 rounds. On 2 May 1958 he fired the 12-gage riot gun familiarization +10 rounds, again on 7 May 1958 he fired the .45 caliber pistol 100 +rounds for familiarization and on 9 March 1959 he fired the 12-gage +riot gun 10 rounds for familiarization. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship +capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, +Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? + +Major ANDERSON. I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving +the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better +than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to +a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be +considered as a good to excellent shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now want to show you certain photographs +which have been heretofore identified and introduced into the +Commission's record as a preliminary to asking your opinion on the +difficulty of certain shots which I will identify. + +First I show you Commission Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead +photograph of an area known as Dealey Plaza, which the record will +show is the situs of the assassination of President Kennedy. I now +show you Commission Exhibit No. 348 which is a photograph of the Texas +School Book Depository Building with the letter "A" pointing to the +half-opened window, that is the bottom portion of the window which is +half opened, where other witnesses have testified that the assassin +stood. Let me add as a factor for you to assume to be true, this the +record will show is based upon eyewitnesses at the scene, that the +weapon partly protruded from the window identified as letter "A" in +Exhibit No. 348 pointing at an angle which is not completely in a +straight line but very much in a straight line with the angle of the +street being designated as Elm Street, which street runs on a downgrade +of approximately 3°. + +I now show you a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 893, +and a second document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 895, which +depict frame No. 210 and frame No. 225 on photographs in the nature +of moving pictures taken by Abraham Zapruder at the assassination +site which the evidence indicates was the range of the first shot +which struck President Kennedy in the lower portion of his neck, with +that bullet striking at a distance from 176.9 feet to a distance of +190.8 feet. Stated differently, the evidence shows that somewhere +between these two pictures President Kennedy was shot in the neck, and +as the photograph of the rifle scope shows in the left-hand corner +lower picture, that is the view through the telescopic lens which the +marksman had based on onsite tests which were made in Dallas with a +camera mounted looking through the scope on Commission Exhibit No. 139, +which is the weapon identified as the assassination rifle. Now assuming +those factors to be true for purposes of this next question, how +would you characterize the difficulty of a shot at that range, which +would strike the President in the lower portion of his neck at a spot +indicated by a white mark on the back of the stand-in the photograph +marked "Re-enactment"? + +My question, then, is how would you characterize the difficulty or ease +of that shot for a marksman with Mr. Oswald's capabilities? + +Major ANDERSON. In my opinion this is not a particularly difficult +shot, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make this shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. +902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which +struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window +to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle +scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had +of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and +I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that +shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a +marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him. + +Major ANDERSON. I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot +at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such +a shot. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we have been off the record +because Mr. Rankin stepped out, but we will proceed now to complete the +deposition since he hasn't returned at this time. + +Major Anderson, assume if you will that there were three shots fired by +the assassin with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in a time span of 4.8 to +5.6 seconds. Would that speed of firing be within the capabilities of +Mr. Oswald based upon the information as to his marksmanship ability +from the Marine Corps records? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; it would. + +Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, are you as familiar with the telescopic +sights as is Master Sergeant Zahm? + +Major ANDERSON. No, sir; I am not. Sergeant Zahm is far more familiar +and much more of an expert on telescopic sights than I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has the testimony which you have provided here today on +the general propositions to which you have testified been within your +sphere of specialization? + +Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; they have. + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition of you, Major Anderson. We +very much appreciate your coming. + +Major ANDERSON. You are quite welcome. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. ZAHM + +The testimony of Sgt. James A. Zahm was taken on July 24, 1964, +at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. J. Lee +Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. + + +Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, will you stand and raise your right hand. +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you shall give before +the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Sergeant ZAHM. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Sergeant ZAHM. James A. Zahm. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation, please? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Master sergeant. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what branch of the service are you? + +Sergeant ZAHM. U.S. Marine Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps, Sergeant Zahm? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Eighteen years. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist? + +Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training +Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training +Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. + +Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? + +Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I +became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches +from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won +the President's match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup +in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had with telescopic sights, +Sergeant Zahm? + +Sergeant ZAHM. One of my additional duties at the present time is the +noncommissioned officer in charge of the long-range team. This consists +of about 40 members of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team, and +I am charged with training, providing weapons, and hand loading the +ammunition for practice and eventual firing at 600 and 1,000 yards in +the interservice match. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are telescopic sights used regularly in those activities? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you characterize for me in some manner your +experience then with telescopic sights in the number that you have used +or duration of time where you have used telescopic sights? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Well, from my own experience, and it is true that the +higher powered telescopes are used in the particular type of firing +we are doing right now, deliberate slow fire at extreme ranges of 600 +and 1,000 yards. We use 12-power to 20-power telescopes. These are +unsuitable for moving targets or closer ranges from unsteady positions, +because the power of the telescope tends to magnify the shooter's +movements and makes a hold more difficult. + +In the lower-powered telescope such as four-power telescope at closer +ranges ranging from 50 to 200 yards, this is an ideal type of weapon +for moving targets or type of telescope for moving targets, and for the +closer ranges, things being inherent in the focus of the scopes when +you get in too close, the higher power type scopes tend to blur out to +a certain degree. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the increased efficiency of a +marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron +sights? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Well, with the iron sights you have more room for error +in the fact that you have three variables. You have your targets, your +front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an +error in alining the sights, and then you also have the possibility +of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the +sight picture. Looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type +sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to +become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in alining the +sights. + +Now this as opposed to telescope of a four-power nature it is a natural +characteristic of a telescope when you are looking for your target, it +is a natural thing to center your target in the view of your telescope, +and in the center view of your telescope is the aiming crosshairs. This +is only one point. + +If you get this one point, the crosshairs in the proper relationship to +your target, this is an aid in locating, finding your target, because +you are using the scope in the sense as binoculars. Once you have found +your target, your sights are already alined, and then through good +trigger manipulation the shot should be well on the target. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to rapid-fire shooting, how does the +telescopic sight on a four-power scope work out? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Four-power being a reasonably low-power scope, it has +a fairly broad field of view. By this we mean it covers a reasonable +amount of area out at about 100 yards, about I think probably around +30 feet or so. Using the scope, rapidly working a bolt and using the +scope to relocate your target quickly and at the same time when you +locate that target you identify it and the crosshairs are in close +relationship to the point you want to shoot at, it just takes a minor +move in aiming to bring the crosshairs to bear, and then it is a quick +squeeze. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as easy, difficult, or how would +you characterize it to use a scope, a four-power scope in rapid fire? + +Sergeant ZAHM. A real aid, an extreme aid. + +Mr. SPECTER. Suppose in focusing in through the four-power scope you do +not get a completely circular view, but instead get a partial view with +a corner of the view being blacked out because you don't have the scope +in direct alinement, but you are still able to see a sufficient amount +of daylight through the scope so that you can see where the crosshairs +line up on target. Is it in sufficient alinement at that juncture to +permit the marksman to shoot accurately? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how does that work out that the alinement is +sufficient to permit an accurate shot, even though the marksman does +not have a completely clear view through the entire circle of the scope? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Well, in the assembly of the telescope, the aiming +reticle or crosshair is so placed in the scope that it is in the same +plane as the focus of the lenses, and regardless of the position of the +eye behind the scope, this makes no apparent or no real movement of the +reticle on the target itself, so if the shooter can look through the +scope and see the juncture of the crosshairs, and it is on his target, +if he properly manipulates the trigger he will get a hit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the documents +identified as Commission Exhibit No. 239 and Exhibit No. 1 to Major +Anderson's deposition, Sergeant Zahm? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on the tests of Mr. Oswald shown by those documents, +how would you characterize his ability as a marksman? + +Sergeant ZAHM. I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, +slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age +throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an +excellent shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much familiarity would a man with Oswald's +qualifications, obtained in the Marine Corps, require in order to +operate a rifle with a scope such as a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a +four-power scope? + +Sergeant ZAHM. How much familiarity would he require? + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me rephrase the question. Would it be very difficult +for a man with Oswald's capabilities as a marksman to use a rifle with +a four-power scope? + +Sergeant ZAHM. No; I feel that the instruction that he had received +qualifies him on the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. There are +just a few refinements in the operation of the bolt rifle and the +scope through a minimum amount of experimenting would make him as +proficient with the bolt and the scope as it did with the weapons he +received instruction on, and if not it would improve his proficiency +actually through the use of the telescope. I feel that this would be an +advantage. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots in your opinion would a man like Oswald +have to take in order to be able to operate a rifle with a four-power +scope, based on the training he had received in the Marine Corps? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Based on that training, his basic knowledge in sight +manipulation and trigger squeeze and what not, I would say that he +would be capable of sighting that rifle in well, firing it, with 10 +rounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would dry runs be an aid to a man like Oswald in learning +how to operate a rifle with a scope on it. + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record what is meant in +marksmanship terms by a dry run? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Dry firing is working the bolt and manipulating the +trigger and alining the sights, whether it be scope or iron, without +any ammunition. The advantage in the scope in dry firing is that when +he snaps the trigger or squeezes the trigger, he can see any apparent +error in his trigger manipulation, movement of the piece, by the jump +of the crosshair much easier than he can with iron sights. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would the use of a four-power scope be a real advantage to +a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities or of a slight advantage, or +how would you characterize the advantage that he would obtain, if any, +from the use of such a scope? + +Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it a real advantage, particularly at the +range of 100 yards, in identifying your target. It allows you to see +your target clearly, and it is still of a minimum amount of power that +it doesn't exaggerate your own body movements. It just is an aid in +seeing in the fact that you only have the one element, the crosshair, +in relation to the target as opposed to iron sights with alining the +sights and then alining them on the target. It is a real aid. + +Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, I am now going to show you the same +photographs which I showed to Major Anderson in setting the basis for +asking you a hypothetical question on capabilities here. As the record +will show, we have heretofore before the President's Commission entered +into evidence Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead shot of Dealey +Plaza. Commission Exhibit No. 348, which I am now displaying to you, is +a photograph of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The evidence +in the record indicates that the marksman stood at the point designated +"A" with the lower half of the window being raised halfway, and the +gun protruding out of that window pointing down the street called Elm +Street in approximately the angle of my pencil which is virtually +although not exactly straight down the street. Elm Street declines 3° +as it slopes under the triple underpass. + +As the evidence will further show, Commission Exhibits Nos. 893 and +895 respectively depict frames 210 and 225 of the Zapruder film which +is a range of the first shot from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet. In the +lower left-hand corner under designation "Photograph through rifle +scope" there is shown the view of the marksman from the sixth floor of +the depository building as he looked down at President Kennedy with +this picture being taken of a stand-in for President Kennedy, with the +white mark designating the spot on the President where the first bullet +struck him. + +Now assuming that the President was struck under those circumstances +at a distance of from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet, using a 6.5 mm +Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a four-power scope, would a man with +Oswald's marksmanship capabilities be able to complete such a shot and +strike the target on the white mark there? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Very definitely. + +Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too +difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot? + +Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I +consider it a very easy shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now taking a look at Commission Exhibit No. 902, which as +the record will show, has been introduced into evidence to depict the +shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from the +rifle in the window to the part of the President's body being 265.3 +feet. Assuming the same factors about using a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle +and pointing it down Elm Street as shown on Commission Exhibit No. 347, +would a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities using such a rifle with a +4-power scope be able to strike the President in the back of the head? +Would Mr. Oswald possess the capability to complete such a shot which +did, in this situation, strike the President in the back of the head? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I think that aiming at the mass of what portion +of the President is visible at that distance and with his equipment, +he would very easily have attained a hit, not necessarily aiming and +hitting in the head. This would have been a little more difficult +and probably be to the top of his ability, aiming and striking the +President in the head. But assuming that he aimed at the mass to the +center portion of the President's body, he would have hit him very +definitely someplace, and the fact that he hit him in the head, but he +could have hit, got a hit. + +Mr. SPECTER. So you would have expected a man of Oswald's capabilities +at a distance of 265.3 feet to strike the President someplace aiming at +him under those circumstances? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And within the range of where you would expect him to hit +him, would that include the President's head? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how would you characterize that shot with respect to +whether it was difficult or not difficult? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. May the record show that +Sergeant Zahm has questioned the appearance of the "photograph through +rifle scope" which appear on Exhibits Nos. 895 and 902. And as the +record will show, there are only four photographs on Exhibit No. +895 whereas there are eight on Commission Exhibit No. 902, so that +necessarily the photograph through the rifle scope is much smaller as +it is depicted on Exhibit No. 902, and I want you to bear that in mind, +Sergeant Zahm, in answering the question as to whether you consider the +shot at a distance of 265.3 feet to be difficult or not difficult; or +characterize it for me in your own words. + +Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it still an easy shot, a little more +difficult from the President's body position and increase in distance +of approximately 40 feet, but I still consider it an easy shot for a +man with the equipment he had and his ability. + +Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that there were three shots fired in a range of +4.8 to 5.6 seconds, would that speed of firing at that range indicated +in the prior questions be within Mr. Oswald's capabilities as a +marksman? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What effect if any would the alinement of the street have +on the moving vehicle in the way that it is shown on the picture, +Exhibit No. 348? + +Sergeant ZAHM. This is a definite advantage to the shooter, the vehicle +moving directly away from him and the downgrade of the street, and he +being in an elevated position made an almost stationary target while he +was aiming in, very little movement if any. + +Mr. SPECTER. How would the fact that the street had a 3° decline affect +the difficulty of the shot. + +Sergeant ZAHM. It would make it easier because Oswald was in an +elevated position, and therefore if the car was traveling on a level +terrain, it would apparently--he would have to keep adjusting by +holding up a little bit as the car traveled. But by going downgrade +this just straightened out his line of sight that much better. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that if the car had been proceeding on a level, the +assassin would have had to have raised his weapon as the distance +between the rifle and the car increased to allow for trajectory? + +Sergeant ZAHM. No; just to allow for the movement of the targets, the +travel. Assume that you are aiming standing at ground level and aiming +down a little at somebody walking straight away from you, and you could +hold your finger and point to him and never have to move it. But when +he gets to the bottom of the hill and the ground levels out, then as he +continues on you have to point your finger---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Raise your finger as you are indicating with your finger +now? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Right; you would have to raise your finger to track the +target. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that if you were aiming at a man in a moving car +driving on the horizontal, as he got farther away from you, would you +(a) hold your rifle at the same level, (b) lower it, or (c) raise it? + +Sergeant ZAHM. If you were in an elevated, a slightly elevated +position, and he was driving on straight level terrain, you would have +to continually track and raise your weapon as he increased his distance +from you. + +Mr. SPECTER. And if he was going down in an angle of descent, would +that decrease the necessity for you to raise your rifle in tracking him? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Right; it would slow the movement down. There still +might be a slight movement, but it wouldn't be as fast. Therefore, not +affecting the aiming or possibly having to introduce a lead in your +aiming, because the target is staying relatively in the same position +on the line of sight. + +Mr. SPECTER. So then it would have been an aid to the assassin to have +had the President's car going on a downgrade because that would have +taken into consideration some of the adjustment necessary by virtue of +the greater distance between the rifle and the victim? + +Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Sergeant Zahm, which you +think might be helpful in this analysis? + +Sergeant ZAHM. No, sir; I don't think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing before the Commission +today, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF C. A. HAMBLEN + +The testimony of C. A. Hamblen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on July 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. You may remain seated. Will you raise your right hand? Do +you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on +the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony +by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive +Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of +Congress, No. 137. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission +governing the taking of testimony of witnesses to have an attorney +present, should you wish. I understand that you are present pursuant +to a subpena that was served on you some days ago by the U.S. Secret +Service, and I presume since you don't have an attorney with you at +this time, you are prepared to proceed with your testimony without an +attorney? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't need an attorney. You might wish to make a little +correction. This should be C. A. Hamblen instead of C. R. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your name is C. A. H-a-m-b-l-e-n? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I will be 50 in December. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are employed by the Western Union Telegraph Co.; +isn't that right? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. It will be 38 years the 6th day of August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to come right to the point in this deposition. I +think you know basically the reason we have asked you to come over. +It is my understanding that you had a conversation with a newspaper +reporter by the name of Bob Fenley shortly after the assassination, in +which you told him, in substance, that you thought that a man who you +thought looked like Lee Oswald had been in your office and had either +sent a telegram or cashed a money order telegram that he had in his +possession; is that correct? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Not exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is it exactly? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. During that time, I came in contact with newspaper +correspondents from all over the world. In my years of service to the +company, I have never disclosed the contents of a telegram, who they +were addressed to, who they were from, or anything pertaining to them. + +I don't think I told Mr. Fenley that a Lee Oswald had been in there, +because talking with those correspondents, I wouldn't divulge any +patron coming into the telegraph office in search of any of our +services, money orders, telegrams, collateral services, collection +services, anything that we have to offer. I believe there is some +misunderstanding on Mr. Fenley's part there. Perhaps I did tell him +that I thought I had seen someone that looked like the man that I saw +over television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember---- + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I thought he was the assassinator. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to Mr. Fenley about this? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling anyone that, of anyone filing +a telegram with us. I remember talking with Fenley, but I wouldn't +disclose any information. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say to Fenley? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Just in general conversation like I would with Wes Wise or +any of the other reporters that I come in contact with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell Fenley that you thought you had seen +somebody that reminded you of Oswald in your office? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; I did tell him that I had saw Oswald. I may have +told him that. I don't recall what all was said--as many of those +correspondents that I talked to during that period of time. Then +the employees under me, we never discuss any telegrams unless it is +necessary for them to ask me to pass upon a telegram so it could be +transmitted. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling Fenley that when you saw the +picture of the alleged assassin on television, that he looked very much +like a man that had caused you a hard time on several instances in your +office? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling Fenley anything like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember signing a statement to that effect for +Mr. Wilcox on December 2, 1963, and I show you a copy. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. That I told Fenley that I saw that man in there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I told Wilcox that I thought I saw him, but I don't think +I told Fenley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Read the first paragraph of that statement. + +Mr. HAMBLEN (reading). I don't think I told Fenley that. I remember +telling Mr. Wilcox that I thought a party had been in there that +resembled Oswald, on several different occasions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now the statement that I have shown you here, which +is Wilcox Exhibit No. 3005, is a copy of a statement that you signed on +December 2, 1963, isn't it? That is your signature? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; that is my signature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could I have it back, please? Now, that statement says, +and I quote: + +"I was in conversation with a reporter at the counter and remarked to +him that I was watching my TV, enjoying the Ernie Ford show, when word +was flashed that the President had been shot and that I thought to +myself what a coincidence it was that I recognized the picture of the +accused gunman when I recognized it when he was slain in jail. He asked +me how I could remember so vividly the photo and my answer to him that +the picture was or was the spit image of a party that had caused me a +hard time on several instances in his transactions of business within +the past several months. (Mr. Bob Fenley was the reporter.)" + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, now, if I gave Bob any information like that, +I don't recall it now. I might have at the time that I wrote the +statement. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you had several conversations with Mr. Wilcox about +this whole matter over a period of time? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wilcox and the company conducted a thorough +investigation of the files? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I am sure they did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And tried to find the telegrams that you thought this man +that was in there may have sent; isn't that right? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to find them? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I wasn't able to detect any one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After this investigation was made, Mr. Wilcox showed you +these telegrams that you have associated or thought might be associated +with Oswald? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. They were brought to me in the presence of Mr. Wilcox and +the vice president of the company in charge of this investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't able to identify any of those telegrams as +having been sent by this man you thought looked like Oswald; isn't that +right? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right. And I think I am pretty good on recognizing +handwriting after handling as many as I have over those years of time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection at this time, do you +think that Lee Oswald was ever in your office? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was Lee Oswald. I would say it was +someone that resembled him from the picture that I had seen in the +paper and on TV. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to state positively that it was Lee +Oswald? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you can see anybody in that picture +that you think might have been the man that was in your office that we +have been talking about. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Bringuier +Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically that Mr. Aubrey Lee Lewis at +one time in the fall of 1963 had some trouble paying somebody a money +order because this fellow expected to get the money order without +proper identification; that you became involved in this and helped Mr. +Lewis handle it? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the fellow looked like? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I can't tell you what he looked like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he resembled Oswald in any way? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I don't. Different ways people dress and everything, +they come in one time and we pay them money orders and the next time +they come in we hardly recognize them. I remember it was a very small +money order, too small to quibble over. I can't remember where it was +from. I know it was under $10, I know that. + +Usually I pay people without identification when it is a small money +order, which the clerks are not allowed to do. They have to get my +permission before they can make payment on a money order where a person +is unable to furnish proper identification. But on small amounts, I +take it upon myself to assume the responsibility, hoping that I will +pay the right man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture that we have looked at, and +after reviewing your recollection, you are not able to identify any of +the people who you saw in your office during that period as being Lee +Harvey Oswald, isn't that a fact? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in assuming that you are quite certain that +Oswald was not a regular customer, in any event? He was never coming +into your office at regular intervals, is that correct? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, I wouldn't say Lee Oswald came in there at regular +intervals. We have patrons that visit us sometimes once a week, +sometimes half a dozen times a week. If it was him, he was very +infrequent. I will say if it was him, he wasn't there over three times, +that I recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was a fellow that you thought resembled Oswald to +some extent that did come in on occasion, or at least two or three +times, but you are not able to positively state that it was Oswald? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that in your discussions +with Mr. Wilcox and with the other officials of the company, you +did the best that you could to straighten this whole matter out and +determine whether it was Oswald or not? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I certainly did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were unable, after working with Mr. Wilcox, to pin +down any of these telegrams or money orders that would indicate that it +was Oswald? + +Mr. HAMBLEN. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically, I show you a picture marked "Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks like that man who was in +your office. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I wouldn't say that that was the man that was in +there. No resemblance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to cut your testimony as short as I possibly can, +because you are not feeling well. We appreciate your cooperation in +coming in when you don't feel well like you have. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. I appreciate it. I was in the X-ray all morning and +yesterday morning for 2 hours. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Hamblen, for coming in. I +appreciate it very much. + +Mr. HAMBLEN. If I can help you any further, well, you have my address. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will get in touch with you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT GENE FENLEY + +The testimony of Robert Gene Fenley, was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July +14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant +attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert Gene Fenley. Mr. Fenley, +my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel of the President's Commission. + +Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, +1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of +procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with +that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized +to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the +general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate +and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President +Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Mr. Fenley, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, I +understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a letter +request mailed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the +staff of the President's Commission, which you received about 4 days +ago? + +Mr. FENLEY. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please rise so I may administer the oath? Do you +solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. FENLEY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name? + +Mr. FENLEY. Robert Gene Fenley. + +Mr. HUBERT. G-e-n-e is your middle name? + +Mr. FENLEY. Correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? + +Mr. FENLEY. 3701 Strayhorn Drive, Mesquite, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Fenley? + +Mr. FENLEY. Reporter for the Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed? + +Mr. FENLEY. Nine years. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? + +Mr. FENLEY. Thirty-six. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in newspaper work before you joined the Times +Herald? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper? + +Mr. FENLEY. Prior to the Times Herald, I was with the Lubbock Avalanche +Journal, the Denton Record Chronicle, and the Pryor, Oklahoma, Times +Democrat. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to college, sir? + +Mr. FENLEY. I went to Oklahoma University. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you graduate? + +Mr. FENLEY. Four years. No; I did not graduate. + +Mr. HUBERT. Study journalism? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; part of the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your whole adult experience, I gather, therefore, has been +in newspaper work? + +Mr. FENLEY. That is true. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a Mr. Hamblen connected with the Western +Union Co. here in Dallas? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I have talked with him on one occasion. I don't know +him personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was that one occasion? + +Mr. FENLEY. The date is rather vague in my mind. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us perhaps the occasion? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am a stringer. + +Mr. HUBERT. A what? + +Mr. FENLEY. A stringer. A correspondent for Time magazine, and I had +written a long piece which we transmitted by Western Union, and I had +gone into Western Union to hand this over for transmitting, and I fell +in conversation with Mr. Hamblen. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you known him prior to that time? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about what time of day it was? + +Mr. FENLEY. It was at night. I forget the exact time of night, but I +believe I had driven from Mesquite with the story to give it to Western +Union. It might have been 11 or 12 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. It happened that Hamblen was the clerk or employee of the +Western Union in service? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you came to engage him in conversation? + +Mr. FENLEY. He noticed the wire or press message which I had, and it +had to do with the assassination, or Oswald, frankly. I can't remember +the content of the wire, but we sort of chatted there for a moment, and +he recalled that he was certain that Oswald had come into the office on +occasion. + +I don't know whether he used the word several. I took it to mean that. +And received some various small amounts of money orders. And certainly +this was interesting to me. We kept chatting and I asked him, now how +big were the amounts of the orders, and he said, "I don't think there +would be anything over $15, $10 or $15." And I asked him, "Now, you +are pretty sure this was Oswald? I mean, the guy you have seen in +the pictures and things like that?" And he replied he was. He said, +"He used to come in and would give the girls a hard time. He was a +cantankerous individual." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what girls? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; not by name. So he said, "I believe the last time"--and +he couldn't recall the date or anything--"that he came in, he went +himself to wait on the fellow because he knew that he was sort of +difficult to deal with." Well, this was certainly interesting to me as +a newspaperman. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard that story before? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your coming upon this story was something +of a gratuity? + +Mr. FENLEY. It certainly was. I was slightly amazed. And the other +thing, there was a marble countertop there in the office, and he +said, or he recalled that Oswald had written in what he described a +curious sort of printing with, as best he could tell, he wrote out some +letters. For instance, an "N" he said as printed by Oswald would have a +high rising right side to it. He said it was a rather curious sort of +printing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he demonstrate that to you? + +Mr. FENLEY. He demonstrated this on the marble. + +Mr. HUBERT. Hamblen did so? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that it was in a foreign alphabet? + +Mr. FENLEY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just a peculiar art? + +Mr. FENLEY. I took it to be certainly the English alphabet, but with a +peculiar sort of printing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what was the nature of the difficulty that +he had had on previous occasions with the man he said was Oswald? + +Mr. FENLEY. Nothing other than an indication that Oswald was difficult +to deal with. + +Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't say how he was difficult to deal with? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; not specifically. Well, at this moment I thought, well, +this sounds like quite an interesting story. And Hamblen gave me his +card. So I went home, and the next day---- + +Mr. HUBERT. How long was the conversation? + +Mr. FENLEY. Oh, not over 10 minutes long. I asked him also, which I +failed to mention, how could we get the records, or how could anyone +get the records, and he indicated it would be very difficult. + +Of course, this would be very helpful if you would get the names or +the identification of people who had sent any money orders to Oswald, +and he indicated that there were so many of that type of money order +coming in that they just couldn't keep all the records. And I got the +impression that it would be either impossible or almost impossible to +run it down. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned, I think, that you were particularly +interested as to the certainty of his identification of Oswald as the +man, and that you made some inquiry along that line? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do by way of testing him, as it were, on that +identification? + +Mr. FENLEY. Well, as I said, I went home that night, and, of course, +we don't have--we are an afternoon newspaper and don't have deadlines +until the morning. + +The next morning I went to talk to our police reporter, whose name is +George Carter, and I hold him what Hamblen had told me. I said I am not +too sure of it. I think it needs a double check. And he said, well, I +know the guy. + +Mr. HUBERT. Meaning Hamblen? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; he said he knew the fellow over at Western Union, and +he said, "I know he is in at Mike's, which is a little barbecue stand +across from the city hall." Hamblen would come into Mike's on occasion, +and George knew him. + +And I said, "George, why don't you go talk to him and see if he will +tell you the same thing?" And George did. When he did, we compared +notes, and he had told George just precisely, as best we knew, the same +content he told me. So George wrote the story. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you yourself make any notes contemporaneously with the +conversation with Hamblen or later? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; I may have made some at home, jotted down a couple of +things on a scrap of paper. In fact, I know I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that available? + +Mr. FENLEY. I doubt it. I am sure I have thrown it away. I was very +interested in the story, but I was sort of afraid to take notes in +front of him, since a lot of people will suddenly freeze up when you +start taking notes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But to come back to the question of identification, I think +you mentioned that it struck you that that was the key to the story, as +it were? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you press him in any way about the identification? + +Mr. FENLEY. Not a great deal. I really, after asking another question +about it, saying, "Now you really feel like you saw Oswald," then I +didn't press the matter any further, because I was afraid he would +freeze up. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand too that his identification, as he stated it +to you, was based upon comparison of the mental image he had of the +man that had come in with the pictures of Oswald he had seen since the +assassination? + +Mr. FENLEY. On television. And frankly, for that reason, I wasn't too +darn sure that he knew what he was talking about. So I mean, you always +have this suspicion that somebody is trying to identify in the case or +something, and this is precisely why I went to Carter and said, "Why +don't you talk to him?" + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words even on that day you were wondering whether +this man really had seen Oswald or not? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you anything about Oswald having come to +collect any money order in company with the person of Spanish or Latin +American appearance? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; he did one thing, and I am really squeezing my memory +here. I believe he said he thought he lived at the "Y" on one occasion, +that he came over again--I am not too certain of that because all of +this business is really, there is so much of this jumbled up, but I do +believe he said he thought he was living at the "Y." + +Mr. HUBERT. There was no other person present when you spoke to Hamblen? + +Mr. FENLEY. There were people in the foyer of the office. + +Mr. HUBERT. But no one in this conversation? + +Mr. FENLEY. No one immediately. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Hamblen know who you were? + +Mr. FENLEY. I think so, being that I did send the telegram addressed to +Time, Inc., and signed Robert Fenley of Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did this conversation occur after your story had been +filed, or while it was being filed, or interspersed? + +Mr. FENLEY. Interspersed. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he volunteered all of this? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean the beginning of it? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I certainly forgot what preceded his volunteering +it, but it was a volunteered thing. Certainly I couldn't have had any +information to question him. + +Mr. HUBERT. In fact, you did not have any information about this at all? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; it took me rather by surprise. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now there is one other matter. You indicated you didn't +know what day this occurred on, and I wonder if there is any way you +could fix it? It would have been, I suppose, after the shooting of +Oswald? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; certainly. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long after? + +Mr. FENLEY. It wasn't too long after that. Now I remember one other +person who came in, and oddly enough he didn't hear the conversation, +but there is sort of a coincidence that at the door was a fellow by the +name of Marsh Clark who is also a full-time Time man. + +Mr. HUBERT. With what? + +Mr. FENLEY. I believe he is in Detroit or Chicago. + +Mr. HUBERT. With what? + +Mr. FENLEY. Time. And also I saw that he had a long thick file, and I +casually inquired who he was with, and it turned out he was with Time +also. Marsh, I don't believe--in fact I am fairly certain--did not hear +what Hamblen had told me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Marsh Clark come in, or did you see him after your +conversation was over? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I made myself acquainted to him after the conversation +with Hamblen, but he was the only other person that I could identify +as being there. I was trying to think by that--now Marsh was still in +town, so it must not have been--we could go back to the file on this +thing and find that story, and it would have been about 2 days before +that story appeared. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me make this point to you. I notice from the calendar +that I have before me of the year 1963 that November 28 was Thursday +and was Thanksgiving. Could you relate this meeting with Hamblen to +that date? + +Mr. FENLEY. It seems to me it might be--my memory on these things +is terrible--but it seems to me that it might have been around +Thanksgiving, now that you mention it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within the week immediately +succeeding the shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. FENLEY. I couldn't be positive, but I think it could have been; +yes. This could be checked very easily by going to the newspaper file +and getting the date and then going back a couple of days. + +Mr. HUBERT. This Mr. Carter, I think you said, checked with Mr. +Hamblen? That is, he told you he did? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the same day that you told him about it, which was the +next day? + +Mr. FENLEY. The next day after; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that he said that you suggested that +he check it out with Hamblen, and that he did right away, or in a few +hours? + +Mr. FENLEY. I would have written the story myself, except I felt +a little dubious, I must say, of it and I wanted George to do the +same thing and see if the story matched. So now, frankly, I am not +too positive when George actually talked to Hamblen, but I believe +the story appeared on a Saturday morning. So if it could have been +Thanksgiving, if Thanksgiving would be on a Thursday, and George talked +to him on Friday, it would appear for the Saturday paper. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you have a recollection that Clark spoke to you after +having spoken to Hamblen? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am certain of that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Before the story appeared? + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And told you that the story he got from Hamblen was about +the same as what you told him Hamblen told you? + +Mr. FENLEY. You mean Carter? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; George Carter. + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else, sir, you would like to comment upon +concerning this matter? + +Mr. FENLEY. No; Gee, I wish I--I am still very curious about this, but +what results, if any, this yielded, frankly, I don't mean this for the +record, but I frankly heard that he recanted the tale. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this. This is a part of the formality of +closing these depositions. I don't think, and I ask you to state +whether you concur, that there has been any conversation between us +this morning other than that which has been recorded in this deposition? + +Mr. FENLEY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You do concur? + +Mr. FENLEY. I concur. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. + +Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF AUBREY LEE LEWIS + +The testimony of Aubrey Lee Lewis was taken at 11:30 a.m., on July 14, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dean Robert G. Story, +special counsel to the attorney general of Texas and Sam Kelley, +assistant attorney general of Texas, were present. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Aubrey Lee Lewis. Mr. Lewis, +my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions +of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by +the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order +and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn +deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of +the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon +the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, +Mr. Lewis, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts +you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you +may know about the general inquiry. Now I understand, Mr. Lewis, that +you appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, +addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of +the President's Commission. + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that? + +Mr. LEWIS. It was Friday. + +Mr. HUBERT. Friday, the 10th, is that correct? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. LEWIS. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? + +Mr. LEWIS. Aubrey Lee Lewis. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? + +Mr. LEWIS. 2321 Tolosa Drive. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Mr. LEWIS. I am an assistant branch manager. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of what? + +Mr. LEWIS. Western Union Telegraph Co. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where? + +Mr. LEWIS. 7620 Lemmon Avenue. + +Mr. HUBERT. In what city? + +Mr. LEWIS. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? + +Mr. LEWIS. Five years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time? + +Mr. LEWIS. U.S. Navy. + +Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that? + +Mr. LEWIS. High school. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? + +Mr. LEWIS. Twenty-six. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that all of your adult life you have been employed by +the Western Union? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you held the same position all that time? + +Mr. LEWIS. No; I have held the same position about the last year and a +half. + +Mr. HUBERT. What are your general duties in that capacity? + +Mr. LEWIS. I am an operator to receive and send telegrams, and advise +the other personnel, instruct the new personnel about the daily routine +of the office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that branch number known by a particular designation or +number? + +Mr. LEWIS. It is B-2 branch office. + +Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes; 7620 Lemmon Avenue. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. C. A. Hamblen? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? + +Mr. LEWIS. Curtis. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is he employed by the Western Union? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where? + +Mr. LEWIS. At 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the downtown office? + +Mr. LEWIS. That is the main branch; yes, sir; main office. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him? + +Mr. LEWIS. I have known him the better part of 5 years. About 4-1/2. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever worked with him? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When? + +Mr. LEWIS. You mean what years, or when? + +Mr. HUBERT. I have specifically in mind sometime prior to November 26. + +Mr. LEWIS. I worked under him nearly 3 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? + +Mr. LEWIS. That was at the main office, 2034 Main. He is the early +night manager. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street branch? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under him at the Main Street branch +until about 2 years ago? + +Mr. LEWIS. About a year and a half ago. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now were you working with him either at the Main Street +branch or at the other branch that you mentioned sometime during the +fall of 1963? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? Which one? + +Mr. LEWIS. That was at the Main Street; 2034 Main. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be working there? + +Mr. LEWIS. I was pulled in from my job because they were short +downtown. People were on vacation. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long a period did you work with Mr. Hamblen then at the +Main branch? + +Mr. LEWIS. I was down 2 weeks altogether, and he was out the first +week. I relieved him the first week, and then I relieved this other +fellow the second week, and I worked under him the second week I was +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under Mr. Hamblen at the Main branch +during the early night shift for 1 week? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you place that week? + +Mr. LEWIS. It was in October, I believe. I am not for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a matter of record on this part? + +Mr. LEWIS. It is in the paper there. I don't know exactly what date it +was. + +Mr. HUBERT. I now show you a photostatic copy of a document dated +Dallas, Tex., December 4, 1963, addressed to Mr. Wilcox, apparently +signed by Aubrey Lee Lewis, which has heretofore been identified as +follows: "Exhibit No. 3006 in the deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox at +Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, WJL." I have shown you this photostatic +copy of this document which I have just described, and I now ask you if +that is a photostat of your signature? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is this document addressed to Mr. Wilcox and identified as +I have stated a moment ago, a correct statement of facts, so far as you +know? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now I wish you would give us further details concerning the +incident to which reference is made in this Exhibit No. 3006, Wilcox' +deposition, with reference to Hamblen's difficulty with a man named +Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, as I said, I was working the early night money order +counter, and this party approached me and said he had a money order, +and I asked him for his identification, which he didn't have any at +that time. And I asked him could he obtain some, and he said he guessed +he could if he had to. He left and came back with some identification. +I believe it was a little Navy ID release card. And I paid him on that. +He gave me quite a bit of trouble. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of what nature? + +Mr. LEWIS. Oh, he was cursing and telling how lousy everything was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in that matter? + +Mr. LEWIS. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in this matter? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, yes. When we have difficulty with anybody, he comes up +and helps us. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up on this occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to this individual? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what conversation or statements passed +between Mr. Hamblen and the individual? + +Mr. LEWIS. It was just about the identification, about that you have to +have it before you can get your money. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time when the man went off to get the +identification? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long was Mr. Hamblen with this man? + +Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. I don't really know. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with him on the first occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. The first occasion I would say about 4 to 5 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now how long after having left to get the identification +did he come back with his identification you referred to? + +Mr. LEWIS. It wasn't long. I would say about 15 to 30 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen see him then? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? + +Mr. LEWIS. Because he came back up to the counter. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hamblen did? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that? Did you ask him to? + +Mr. LEWIS. He saw him come in, and he came back and helped me out with +him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was this person disagreeable on the second occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. He was somewhat disagreeable--still in a nasty mood--you +might say. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say nasty mood, could you give us an example of +what physically happened that you characterize as nasty? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, cursing and telling us how lousy we are, and that +he had been paid money orders before and never had to have any +identification. And just generally what everybody else tells us. It is +nothing new. We hear it quite often. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember this person's name? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen tell you that he had had difficulty with +this man prior to this occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever cashed any money orders +for this person prior to this occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. I don't believe so, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any address to the payee? + +Mr. LEWIS. The YMCA is the only address that he gave me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was the telegram money order addressed to the YMCA? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; as far as I can remember, it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as I understand it, it must have come in with +the telegram? + +Mr. LEWIS. He came in with the check. + +Mr. HUBERT. The check? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your recollection is, the check was addressed to the YMCA, +to an individual at the Y? + +Mr. LEWIS. We have a rubber stamp at each branch office which is +stamped at the top of their checks where it was issued, and as I +recall, it was issued at the Cotton Exchange office. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the Cotton Exchange office? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. LEWIS. Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that there was someone in Dallas sending a money order +from the Cotton Exchange office? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. That is where it was addressed, to the Cotton +Exchange. That is where the money order was sent to. I have no idea +where it was sent from. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what is this part then about, YMCA? + +Mr. LEWIS. We have an "Office Issued" and there is a rubber stamp on +the check where it was issued at, but I have no idea or know where it +was coming from. That was where the check was written up at, at the +Cotton Exchange. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it was addressed to the payee? + +Mr. LEWIS. To the payee at the YMCA. + +Mr. HUBERT. How are those checks handled? For instance, when it was +issued by the Cotton Exchange branch, would it have been mailed or +delivered? + +Mr. LEWIS. Delivered by boy. + +Mr. HUBERT. Delivered by boy? + +Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk. + +Mr. HUBERT. To the addressee? + +Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk at the YMCA. The clerk signs for it and keeps +them there in a little box they have there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether this was done in +this case? That is to say, that the clerk receipted for it at the YMCA? + +Mr. LEWIS. So far as I know, that is how it was handled. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean if you know that absolutely, or are you just +assuming that is the way? + +Mr. LEWIS. I am just assuming that is the way it was handled. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any particular knowledge on this occasion? + +Mr. LEWIS. No; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of this individual? + +Mr. LEWIS. The only thing I could remember was that he was of a +feminine, very slender build fellow. + +Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, he talked funny and peculiar. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an accent? + +Mr. LEWIS. No accent. Just the way a person acts. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was his mannerism? + +Mr. LEWIS. Mannerism was feminine. + +Mr. HUBERT. In what way? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, I don't know how to describe it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just an overall impression? + +Mr. LEWIS. Just an overall impression, of the person. As far as +remembering his weight and height and everything like that, I wouldn't. +I have no idea. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complexioned? + +Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color of his eyes? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had dark hair? + +Mr. LEWIS. That is the only thing I remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? + +Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall that either. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. There was a companion with him. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that the person with him was with him? In +fact was a companion? + +Mr. LEWIS. They were talking. They came together and left together both +times. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that the companion of the payee +that we have been talking about was of a Latin American or Spanish type? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes; that I do recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. By that, you mean what? + +Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned, and just looked of Spanish descent. + +Mr. HUBERT. Latin American? + +Mr. LEWIS. Latin American descent. + +Mr. HUBERT. They were speaking English? + +Mr. LEWIS. Normal speech in English. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any Spanish accent? + +Mr. LEWIS. The fellow had a Spanish accent. + +Mr. HUBERT. He was accompanied by the boy with a Spanish accent? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything else that happened? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I wasn't paying much attention to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean the exact conversation, but just the general +situation. + +Mr. LEWIS. No; I wouldn't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the person of Spanish accent insofar +as build and size and weight? + +Mr. LEWIS. He was of short and slender build. + +Mr. HUBERT. Shorter than the payee? + +Mr. LEWIS. About the same. + +Mr. HUBERT. About the same weight? + +Mr. LEWIS. Approximately, yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how much the money order was for? + +Mr. LEWIS. No; it was for a small amount. I don't recall the exact +amount. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had never had any other business with this payee before? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any afterward? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Hamblen did not mention to you that he had had any +before? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. The first time I knew about that was when we went +into our district manager's office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which I have marked for +identification on the back thereof on the lower right-hand corner the +following words: "Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of Aubrey +L. Lewis." I ask you if this picture resembles the person that you have +been testifying about as the payee on the occasion you have mentioned? + +Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say if it resembled him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection whether it looks like him at all? + +Mr. LEWIS. I sure don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. You said he had dark hair? + +Mr. LEWIS. That is true. He had dark hair, but as far as any features, +I don't remember the eyes or nose or anything. I don't recall them. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall, as I understand from your statement, that +the man's name was Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I do not recall that. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the fact that Mr. Hamblen says he was +Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I am familiar with that. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember? + +Mr. LEWIS. I don't remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. You cannot tell us now whether or not the picture shown in +Exhibit No. 1, which in fact is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, was the +man you have been testifying about as the payee of that money order? + +Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you say for sure either way that it was or it was not? + +Mr. LEWIS. No; I can't be sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it could be and it could not be? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it could be and it couldn't be. I have no way of +knowing. + +Mr. HUBERT. You will not say it was not that man? + +Mr. LEWIS. I wouldn't say it wasn't, but I wouldn't say it was, because +it could be. I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall making any comments to Mr. Hamblen on the +occasion that you have been testifying about, and after this payee +had left, that you would like to punch the heads of people of this +character? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I made that statement. + +Mr. HUBERT. You made that statement to Mr. Hamblen? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why was that? + +Mr. LEWIS. Well, he is just a person that kind of gives you a bad time. +You can do without that kind. You don't have time to fool with them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first come to your attention that it +was possible that the man that had dealings with you, as you have +testified, might be Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Hamblen, after I had gone back on my job quite sometime, +called me at home one night and asked me did I recall when I had paid +that party, and I told him I recalled it. + +And he asked me did I recognize him as being Oswald, and I said, "No, +I have never put it together." I just never did. And I still can't +picture the two. I had forgotten all about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was it that Hamblen approached you, as you say he did, +and asked you about this? + +Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall the date, but it was a couple of weeks after +the assassination, after he was killed. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say then it was about the first week in December? + +Mr. LEWIS. I would say somewhere along in there. I am not for sure, but +it was a short time span. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it thus have been about 2 months after you had had +this episode, that this episode occurred between you and this man? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then your memory did not associate the payee with Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. At that time had you been shown or looked at pictures of +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. LEWIS. I had seen him on TV. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you at any time prior to today been shown a picture of +Lee Harvey Oswald as I have shown it to you? + +Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall if Mr. Wilcox had one or not. I am not sure. +But I saw it in the newspapers and on TV, and I don't recall seeing one +that day. I could have. He possibly had one. + +Mr. HUBERT. What I am talking about is the day that inquiry was focused +upon the possibility of this payee as Lee Harvey Oswald. Were you then +shown a picture and asked if it was that man as I have done today? + +Mr. LEWIS. I believe I was. I am not for sure, but I believe Mr. Wilcox +had one at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you have described the identification card which +this payee ultimately produced and which you ultimately recognized? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I believe you said it was a Navy ID card? + +Mr. LEWIS. It was a little release card you get when you get out of the +service. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a picture on it? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. It just had his name and some of them have serial +numbers and some of them don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. So the identification established then was that the person +who held the telegram also held a card addressed to the payee of the +telegram? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a library card as well? + +Mr. LEWIS. I believe it was a library card also. + +Mr. HUBERT. That didn't have any picture? + +Mr. LEWIS. That didn't have a picture; no. This ID that he had wasn't +very good at all, as far as we considered identification to pay money +orders. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why not? + +Mr. LEWIS. We like to have pictures on identification and some legal +papers, you might say; insurance and driver's license. + +Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license? + +Mr. LEWIS. Driver's license; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask for that? + +Mr. LEWIS. I asked for it, and he didn't have any. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he didn't drive? + +Mr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. He said he didn't have any license. + +Mr. HUBERT. You think it was about a half hour after the first episode +that he returned with the other identification? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both +occasions? + +Mr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything to add? + +Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from +the Western Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had +been purchased by someone and payable to the payee involved at the +Cotton Exchange branch? + +Mr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it is in the Cotton Exchange Building. I think it +is on North Ervay.[F] + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that +since I have met you today, which was the first time we ever met, there +has been no conversation between us other than that which has been +covered in the deposition in one way or another, is that correct? + +Mr. LEWIS. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. + +Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir. + + [F] 608 North St. Paul, one block from Ervay and YMCA. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS JR. + +The testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1964, +at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Dean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified +as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, as you know by now, I am an attorney on +the staff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to +take your deposition pursuant to authority granted to the Commission +by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint +resolution of Congress, No. 137. + +I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last +week to be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the +proceeding. + +As you are a member of the bar--as you know, of course, you are +entitled to counsel, but you can probably forego that if you want to. +You also know that you have all the usual privileges not to answer +questions on the grounds of incrimination and whatever other privileges +you might have and want to exercise. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle initial is A, A for Adams, Andrews, +Jr. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are a member of the Bar +of Louisiana? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I am a member of the bar of the State of Louisiana. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you regularly practice law in the city of New Orleans? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairie Lawn Drive. That's in Metairie, La. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Metairie Lawn Drive in Metairie? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you maintain your offices? + +Mr. ANDREWS. 627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee +Harvey Oswald came into your office some time during the summer of +1963. Would you tell us in your own words just what happened as far as +that is concerned? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: +Oswald came in the office accompanied by some gay kids. They were +Mexicanos. He wanted to find out what could be done in connection with +a discharge, a yellow paper discharge, so I explained to him he would +have to advance the funds to transcribe whatever records they had up in +the Adjutant General's office. When he brought the money, I would do +the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent to that, not in +the company of the gay kids. He had this Mexicano with him. I assume he +is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first time he came in he was with these Mexicans, and +there were also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that +appeared to you to be homosexuals? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call +them gay kids. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before? + +Mr. ANDREWS. None of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any of them since? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came in? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since the first time they came in? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever come back with Oswald? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time? + +Mr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing +clothes of the opposite sex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many of them were there? + +Mr. ANDREWS. About 50. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They weren't all with Oswald, were they? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald--you see, they made what they call a scoop and +put them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They +were in the holding pavilion. I paroled them and got them out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay +kids, is that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the +time the police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes +of the opposite sex were the ones that had been with Oswald? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify them by name? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; you see, they just--we don't even open up files on +them. We don't open a file. We mark what we call a working file. We +make a few notes and put it in the general week's work. If you come +back and the office is retained, we make a permanent file and--but +these kids come and go like--you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you +have told us? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time in May. I went and checked the +records. I couldn't find nothing on it. I believe it's May of 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 1963? + +Mr. ANDREWS. On Friday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was after Oswald had been in your office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think he had come back +with this Mexicano one more time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before these people were arrested? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second time he came back, we talked about +the yellow paper discharge, about his status as a citizen, and about +his wife's status. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get into that, let me try and pin down how +long it was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all +got arrested. All 50 of them for wearing these clothes? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know it was 50. That I can't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; it wasn't that. Ten days at the most. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would +reflect the dates these people were picked up? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are +there, but I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just +like you and I wear clothes. Today their name is Candy; tomorrow it is +Butsie; next day it is Mary. You never know what they are. Names are +a very improbable method of identification. More sight. Like you see +a dog. He is black and white. That's your dog. You know them by sight +mostly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what date it was that that large arrest +was made? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean +them all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all +the humbug out. They have been doing that very effectively. You can +pick just any Friday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was on a Friday? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It had to be a Friday or Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In May of 1963? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw these kids at this big pickup on Friday or +Saturday, did you ever see any of them again after that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; still looking for them. They owe me a fee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They are always the hardest ones to find. + +Mr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you about his own citizenship +status? You say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. +What did he talk to you about in that regard? + +Mr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as +I recall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He +didn't say how; he didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the +people who wanted to join The Free World and--I represented one or +two of them. They had belonged to The World Citizenship--I explained +to him there are certain steps he had to do, such as taking an oath +of loyalty to a foreign power, voting in a foreign country election, +or some method that is recognized defectively as loss of citizenship. +Then I told him, "Your presence in the United States is proof you are +a citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration +with a green card, form 990." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had gone? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he +was back and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation? + +Mr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions--I don't know which visit it +was--about citizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin +cited for citizenship purposes--that's what counts--and he said Russia, +so I just assumed he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in +Russia or in Europe, married them, and brought them over here as a GI, +a GI bride, and wanted to go through the routine of naturalization, +which is 3 years after lawful admission into the United States if you +are married, and five years if you are not, maintain the status here in +the States cumulatively for 5 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he wanted to institute citizenship +proceedings for his wife? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms. +Cost him $10. All he had to do was execute them. He didn't need a +lawyer. That was the end of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did he come into your office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting initial visit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you talk about different subjects at different +times? As I understand it, the first time he came there, he was +primarily concerned about his discharge, is that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed +because with the company he kept and the conversation--he could talk +fairly well--I figured that this was another one of what we call in my +office free alley clients, so we didn't maintain the normalcy with the +file that--might have scratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2 +days later threw the whole thing away. Didn't pay too much attention to +him. Only time I really paid attention to this boy, he was in the front +of the Maison Blanche Building giving out these kooky Castro things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was this, approximately? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building, and +I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I +turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that +junk out. He said it was a job. I reminded him of the $25 he owed the +office. He said he would come over there, but he never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this +literature? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he +was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the +$25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was +a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making. They were little +square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over +there [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets? + +Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues +of Castro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of +guys, Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see +you fooling with these things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were they like? + +Mr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What color were the pamphlets? You say it was white paper? + +Mr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think it +is black and white. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are colorblind? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give it to +them, the people look at it and they drop it, right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you +saw him handing this stuff out? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It was in the middle of the week, around Tuesday or +Wednesday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is the Maison Blanche Building? What street is it +on? + +Mr. ANDREWS. 921 Canal Street. It is on this side. It is bounded by +Dauphine and Burgundy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from the International Trade Mart? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp +Street, it would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the +cemetery; so it would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no +matter which way you went, but you would walk four blocks on Common +Street or Gravier, and then two blocks over the other way. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture +that has been marked as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you +recognize the individual in that picture and the street scene, if you +are familiar with it. + +Mr. ANDREWS. This is Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the fellow who was in your office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that in your mind? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe; no. This is him. I just can't place it. +This isn't where I saw him. This is probably around the vicinity of the +International Trade Mart. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you another picture +that has been marked for identification as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," +and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture and the street +scene. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Oswald is marked with an X, and a client of mine is over +here on the right-hand side. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that a a paying client or what? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; paying client [indicating]. And this dress belongs to +a girl friend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is your client? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It should be three. There's two sisters and this young +lady [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What's her name? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the woman that appears on the far +right-hand side of the picture with a handbag on her arm? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say Oswald is marked with an X, and you identify +that as the man that you saw in your office and the same man you saw +passing out pamphlets? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention specifically to the second man who +is standing behind Oswald to his right and facing toward the front +wearing a white, short-sleeved shirt and necktie, who also appears to +have some leaflets in his hand. Have you ever seen that man before? + +Mr. ANDREWS. The Mexicano that I associate Oswald with is approximately +the same height, with the exception that he has a pronounced short +butch haircut. He is stocky, well built. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow that I have indicated to you on "Bringuier +Exhibit No. 1" is too slightly built to be associated with Oswald; is +that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He is stocky. Has what they call an athletic build. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this other fellow taller than Oswald or shorter than +Oswald? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Very close. Not taller. Probably same height; maybe a +little smaller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say the Mexican weighed, approximately? + +Mr. ANDREWS. About 160, 165. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was of medium build or heavy build? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, stocky. He could go to "Fist City" pretty good if he +had to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old would you say he was? + +Mr. ANDREWS. About 26. Hard to tell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he was wearing when he came into the +office with Oswald on these different occasions? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Normally, different colored silk pongee shirts, which are +pretty rare, you know, for the heat, or what appeared to be pongee +material. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to this other fellow? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, he talked Spanish, and all I told him was poco poco. +That was it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I can understand a little. I can if you speak it. I can +read it. That's about all. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which +has been marked "Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that +is the same man that was in your office and the same man you say was +passing out literature in the street. + +Mr. ANDREWS. It appears to be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this Mexican again if you saw him? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you wouldn't be able +to recognize him again if you saw him? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Probably did. Been a long time. There's three people I am +going to find: One of them is the real guy that killed the President; +the Mexican; and Clay Bertrand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have +considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he +couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that +short time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion on reports that you have +received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period +of time; is that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman +in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the +bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a +living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it. +He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean +into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain +can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have used a pronoun in this last series of +statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to +what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to +what happened based on material you read in the newspaper? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is +lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, +this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own +experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing? + +Mr. ANDREWS. You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle +or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with +it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver. +This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy. +Somebody else pulled the trigger. + +Mr. LIEBELER. However, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. You +don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us +about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that +statement; is that correct? If you do, I want to know what it is. + +Mr. ANDREWS. If I did, I would give it to you. It's just taking the +5 years and thinking about it a bit. I have fired as much as 40,000 +rounds of ammo a day for 7 days a week. You get pretty good with it as +long as you keep firing. Then I have gone back after 2 weeks. I used to +be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop 100 out of 100. After +2 weeks, I could only pop 60 of them. I would have to start shooting +again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. Every other person I +knew, same thing happened to them. You just have to stay at it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see Oswald at any time subsequent to that +time you saw him in the street handing out literature? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I have never seen him since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what month that was, approximately? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Summertime. Before July. I think the last time would be +around--the last could have been, I guess, around the 10th of July. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Around the 10th of July? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe it was after that. It could have been +before, but not after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned this Mexican that accompanied Oswald +to your office. Have you seen him at any time subsequent to the last +time Oswald came into your office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately how long a period of time +elapsed from the last time Oswald came into your office to the last +time you saw him in the street handing out literature? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I would say about 6 weeks, just guessing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time +since then? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican +community here is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the +Latin community. He is not known around here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the +assassination? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him +handing out literature? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with +him or not, I wouldn't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear that there was anybody else helping him +hand out literature? + +Mr. ANDREWS. There was one person, but they had no literature. They +weren't giving anything out. Let me see that picture of that little +bitty guy, that weasel before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. [handing picture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit +No. 1. + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; he resembled this boy, but it is not him. It is a pale +face instead of a Latin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he +give you any idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; he just said, "It's a job." + +Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is, of course, that you are here under +subpena and subpena duces tecum, asking you to bring with you any +records that you might have in your office indicating or reflecting +Oswald's visit, and my understanding is that you indicated that you +were unable to find any such records. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I got out of the +hospital, and I talked with the FBI people. We couldn't find anything +prior to it. Whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going +through it, we haven't found anything since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have caused a thorough search to be made of your +office for these records? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't been able to come up with anything? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after the assassination when you +had some further involvement with Oswald, or at least an apparent +involvement with Oswald; as I understand it? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing at all with Oswald. I was in Hotel Dieu, and +the phone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand asked me if I +would go to Dallas and Houston--I think--Dallas, I guess, wherever it +was that this boy was being held--and defend him. I told him I was sick +in the hospital. If I couldn't go, I would find somebody that could go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's where I was when the call came through. It came +through the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't in shape enough +to go to Dallas and defend him and I would see what I could do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You +met him prior to that time? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably a +couple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of gay kids normally, +either to obtain bond or parole for them. I would assume that he was +the one that originally sent Oswald and the gay kids, these Mexicanos, +to the office because I had never seen those people before at all. They +were just walk-ins. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time +about 2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that +you have just told us about? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he is mostly a voice on the phone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay +Bertrand asking you to defend Oswald? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately following the assassination? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. +I guess I did because I was--they told me I was squirrelly in the +hospital. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had pneumonia; is that right? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And as I understand it, you were under heavy sedation at +that time in connection with your treatment for pneumonia? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called +my secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey +Oswald's file. Of course, she didn't remember, and I had to tell her +about all the kooky kids. She thought we had a file in the office. I +would assume that he would have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. +I am pretty sure it was before the assassination. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean before the assassination--don't you mean +before Oswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald +had been shot? + +Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's arrest and prior to his---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. His death? + +Mr. ANDREWS. His death. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI +is that you first advised the FBI of this, telling them that you recall +that Clay Bertrand had called you at some time between 6 o'clock and +9 o'clock in the evening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you +remember telling the FBI about that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not, +but that's probably correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what time approximately that Clay +Bertrand did call you? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got +fed, it was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about +the right time. It's around that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you +called your secretary and asked her if she remembered the Oswald file; +is that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; she didn't remember Oswald at all. She knows that +occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she had +remembered something, but nothing of any value. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember that after you got out of the +hospital, you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you +made to her at home? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that +you called her at approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November +23, 1963? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you--let's take it one step further: Do you +also recall the fact that your private investigator spent most of that +afternoon with you in your hospital room? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was there with you? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; Preston M. Davis. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what time he left? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been before you called your secretary or +afterwards? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you called? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you called your secretary? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Let's see. He wasn't there when I made the phone call. He +wasn't there when Clay Bertrand called me, I am pretty sure, because he +would have remembered it if I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that +you received the telephone call from Clay Bertrand? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call +from Clay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because +I would have talked to him about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he left before you called your secretary? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I think he left around chow time, which, I think, is +around 4 o'clock. I could be wrong. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked +about here the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing +it with the FBI, have you come up with any solution in your own mind +to the apparent problems that exist here? That is to say, that your +recollection is that you called your secretary after you received the +call from Clay Bertrand and you called your secretary at 4 o'clock, +which would indicate that you must have received the call from Clay +Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive the call from +Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approximately +4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to +which, you first recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time +between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the time factor I can't help you with. It is +impossible. But I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary--if +I couldn't get her to verify it, I would tell you that I was smoking +weed. You know, sailing out on cloud 9. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call +her? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but +it isn't. It's just that I can't place--other than what I told Regis +Kennedy and John Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But if it +hadn't been for calling her and asking her---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. To look up the Oswald file or if she remembered the +Oswald file? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I would just say I have a pretty vivid imagination +and let's just forget it. Anything other than the law practice--I would +say that what Regis suspects is that I was full of that dope, but I +normally take certain steps, and this is the way I would have done it +is what I did. I called her. Had Davis been there when the call came +in, Davis would have been told, and he would have left the hospital, +went down to the office, and shook the office down for the file, and +called me from there before he went home. I know it couldn't have come +in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is either +medication or food. Of course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much +interested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty +sure it was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up +that the call came in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, they fed you more than once up there? + +Mr. ANDREWS. They feed three times a day, but they don't feed you +enough to keep a sparrow alive. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, you are not able to clarify for us +the sequence of what happened? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent +Saturday afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then +I ate, and the phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive +it wasn't as late as 9 o'clock. I think the latest it could have been +is 6, but Miss Springer says I called her some time around 4, 4:30--I +don't know which. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Miss Springer is your secretary? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you recall talking to an FBI agent, Regis L. +Kennedy, and Carl L. Schlaeger on November 25? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember--Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't +even know if he was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen +him, much less talk to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Kennedy was; yes? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They usually go around in pairs? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they work in teams, so he's got to have been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; is that +correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- + +Mr. ANDREWS. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, +and the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Feebees? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's what we call the Federal guys. All of a sudden, +like a big hurricane, here they come. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought +that Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had +been in the office earlier last spring? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a picture in your mind of this Clay Bertrand? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, I ran up on that rat about 6 weeks ago and he spooked, +ran in the street. I would have beat him with a chain if I had caught +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, +before I talked to you about this thing, and I was going to take your +deposition at that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your +continuing discussions with the FBI, you finally came to the conclusion +that Clay Bertrand was a figment of your imagination? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two +Feebees are going to put these people on the street looking, and I +can't find the guy, and I am not going to tie up all the agents on +something that isn't that solid. I told them, "Write what you want, +that I am nuts. I don't care." They were running on the time factor, +and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get it, get it. I +couldn't give it to them. I have been playing cops and robbers with +them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the +plague. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the description of the situation? + +Mr. ANDREWS. It was my decision if they were to stay there. If I decide +yes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, "Close your +file and go some place else." That's the real reason why it was done. I +don't know what they wrote in the report, but that's the real reason. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran +into Clay Bertrand in the street? + +Mr. ANDREWS. About 6 weeks ago. I am trying to think of the name of +this bar. That's where this rascal bums out. I was trying to get past +him so I could get a nickel in the phone and call the Feebees or John +Rice, but he saw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him that day? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; if I would have got close enough to talk to him, I +would have grabbed him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What does this guy look like? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue eyes, +ruddy complexion. Must weigh about 165, 170, 175. He really took off, +that rascal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He recognized you? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He had to because if he would have let me get to that +phone and make the call, he would be in custody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available +to the FBI for interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service? + +Mr. ANDREWS. What I wanted to do and should have done is crack him in +the head with a bottle, but I figured I would be a good, law-abiding +citizen and call them and let them grab him, but I made the biggest +mistake of the century. I should have grabbed him right there. I +probably will never find him again. He has been bugging me ever since +this happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now before you ran into Clay Bertrand in the street on +this day, did you have a notion in your mind what he looked like? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen him before one time to recognize him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had +before when you recognized him? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a +little fatter, maybe a little skinnier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an interview that +Mr. Kennedy had with you on December 5, 1963, in which he reports you +as stating that you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being +approximately 6 feet 1 inch to 6 feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, +and well dressed. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now this description is different, at least in terms of +height of the man, than the one you have just given us of Clay Bertrand. + +Mr. ANDREWS. But, you know, I don't play Boy Scouts and measure them. +I have only seen this fellow twice in my life. I don't think there is +that much in the description. There may be some to some artist, but to +me, there isn't that much difference. Might be for you all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think you said he was 5 feet 8 inches before. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I can't give you any better because this time I was +looking for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You +meet a guy 2 years ago, you meet him, period. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which time was he sitting down? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He was standing up first time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you met him on the street the second time when +you---- + +Mr. ANDREWS. No, he was in a barroom. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting in a bar when you saw him 6 weeks ago? + +Mr. ANDREWS. A table at the right-hand side. I go there every now and +then spooking for him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What's the name of the bar you saw him in that day, do +you remember? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if you didn't see him standing up on that +day---- + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your +mental picture of this man in regard to his height from the first one +that you had? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy +on December 5 that he was 6 feet 1 to 6 feet 2 and now you have told us +that he was 5 feet 8 when at no time did you see the man standing up. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Because, I guess, the first time--and I am guessing now---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this fellow a homosexual, do you say? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call a swinging cat. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him at any time since that day? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you had your office searched for any records +relating to Clay Bertrand? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you found anything? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Prior to--I guess the last time would be February of 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, +is that right? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective, +Mr. Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary, have you asked them +whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald in +the office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about +closing time. We review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as +a group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The +only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the +whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand? + +Mr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, I believe, at the time I knew +Bertrand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with them? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald came into your office, of course, he told you +what his name was, didn't he? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Lee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But that's what he told you? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to +Davis at any time prior to November 23, 1963? + +Mr. ANDREWS. What the procedure is--I am in a different office now than +I was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into +it--well, what I would call my office--and they just had the reception +room out in the front, and Davis would go out there, and on those +matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably +some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they +had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned +to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to +Davis? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group +in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to +come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in +there. Depends on how bad the police are rousing them. They shoo them +in. My best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. +God bless the police. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as +one of these gay kids? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; I represent them and that's about all there is to it. +When they owe me money, I know where to go grab them, and that's about +as far as if goes. Is he supposed to be down here? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thornley? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I can find out if he ever made the scene here real +easy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; he is not in New Orleans, I don't think, at the +moment. When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what +branch of the service he had been in? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He told me he was dishonorably discharged. That's what I +call a yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, +the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I +think, $15 or $25, I forget which, and to take the service, his rate +or rank, the serial number, and to write to the Adjutant General for +the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they +could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or +reconsideration on the file. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; he said he would come back, and he came back, but I +still didn't get his serial number and I still didn't get the money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a +dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do +you have a specific recollection on that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. +He never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was +other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. I just +assumed it was a B.C.D. if he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in +the Army, it's a yellow discharge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he +had a job when he first came into your office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Never asked him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with +difficulty in obtaining employment? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. He had a reason why he wanted it +reopened. What, I don't recall. He had a reason. I don't recall. He +mentioned a reason, but I don't recall. I was trying to remember where +they were seated to see if that would help, but no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, about 5 feet 6 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And about how much did he weigh? + +Mr. ANDREWS. About 135, 140. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have +anything else that you would like to add? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I wish I could be more specific, that's all. This is my +impression, for whatever it is worth, of Clay Bertrand: His connections +with Oswald I don't know at all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief +case. That's my opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether +this boy is associated with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I +would say, when I met him about 6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he +ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he +could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty +good looking for him while I was in the hospital, and somebody might +have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for him, but I have +never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and +the only other part of this thing that I understand, but apparently I +haven't been able to communicate, is I called Monk Zelden on a Sunday +at the N.O.A.C. and asked Monk if he would go over--be interested in +a retainer and go over to Dallas and see about that boy. I thought +I called Monk once. Monk says we talked twice. I don't remember the +second. It's all one conversation with me. Only thing I do remember +about it, while I was talking with Monk, he said, Don't worry about +it. Your client just got shot. That was the end of the case. Even if +he was a bona fide client, I never did get to him; somebody else got +to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole thing, but this +boy Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or +later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does Bertrand owe you money? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I ain't looking for him for that. I want to find +out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was +assassinated. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How come Bertrand owes you money? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay +the office for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have--like you are +Bertrand. You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X +doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, Bertrand has a guarantee for the +payment of appearance. One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to +go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay? + +Mr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He +didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any +squares that run with them. They may go down to look. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't +walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was +there anything striking about the way he carried himself? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other +than into and out of the office. There's nothing that would draw my +attention to anything out of the ordinary, but I just assumed that he +knew these people and was running with them. They had no reason to +come. The three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. They were +what we call swishers. You can just look at them. All they had to do +was open their mouth. That was it. Walk, they can swing better than +Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pronounced ones, you never +know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but I have +no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with +what they call here queens. That's about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first +day they came into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you +saw them down at the police station? + +Mr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never +seen them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There were just three of them? + +Mr. ANDREWS. The Latin type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin +won't, so I assume he is a Mex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether there were five of them that came into the +office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes--you +have the other part--the Secret Service brought me some things. They +don't have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with +the two Realpey sisters. They are actually in the office, and that +shook me down to my toes pretty good. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. The picture you refer to +might be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Realpey-Plaza and her sister +Marguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young lady's name +here at all [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to the three women who are standing---- + +Mr. ANDREWS. The one facing, standing as you look at it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one you can't identify? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I have her file in the office. Uncle is a warden at +the Parish Prison here in New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the three women that are +standing at the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B? + +Mr. ANDREWS. The girl carrying the pocketbook. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the +moment? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of +the picture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys +who were in the office? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but +he is Latin looking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He looks like a Latin? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to +look for him, but I didn't have a picture of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is that? + +Mr. ANDREWS. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars +around to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to +be found. They are very clannish. There are only certain places they +go. Somebody has to remember him. He can't just come into New Orleans +and disappear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he +has to have some place to sleep and--but I didn't have a picture of +him, and nobody--you just can't do it. But a lot of water has run under +the stream. He may or may not be here, but it wouldn't be too hard to +locate him, you know, with the proper identification. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your friends down the street have been trying to +find him and haven't come up with him yet. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Debrueys? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. ANDREWS. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need +Latin stools for that boy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. +Bertrand and he did run off? Did you see him run off? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I chased him, but I couldn't go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was when you saw him 6 weeks ago? + +Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this barroom is right adjacent to--the street--as you +go in, there are two entrances, one on the block side and one on the +corner. I had no more idea of finding him than jumping off the bridge. +I went in there hoping, and the hope came through. I was so surprised +to see him there. I kept working my way there to go to the front when +he recognized me and he sprinted out the door on the side of the street +and was gone. I had to go past him to go to the phone. I should have +conked him with the beer bottle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He took off as soon as he saw you? + +Mr. ANDREWS. No; but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was +moving towards him. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. +453-A, and ask you if you can recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mr. ANDREWS. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full face +towards the looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here +[indicating] appears to be familiar, but I would have to blow his face +up to be sure. He is in between. See, this one here [indicating]? I +have never seen this picture before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and +the man who has the arrow over his head? + +Mr. ANDREWS. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me +a while to place it, but the face appears to be familiar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen this picture before, is that correct? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various +pictures, but you don't recall this one? + +Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series +where--one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. +They may have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a +club back in 1946 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy +that was a member. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. +I want to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the +cooperation you have given us. + +Mr. ANDREWS. I only wish I could do better. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ + +The testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1964, at +the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, +La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Special Agent Richard E. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau +of Investigation, was present. + + +Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and +testified, through the interpreter, Mr. Logan, as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's +Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have +been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November +29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. + +You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney +present during your questioning. You are not required to answer +questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. You +may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to +do that. You are entitled to 3-days' notice under the rules. I assume +you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you +are here, and I assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are +prepared to go ahead without one. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am ready to answer all the questions. I have been +advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and I am ready to +answer any questions that I can help you with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Evaristo? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ [writing]. Gibara, Oriente, Cuba. That's the province, +Oriente, and the city is Gibara. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. July 26, 1941. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live now? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. 1239 Chartres Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still a citizen of Cuba? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in the United States? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I came here in 1962 on a boat. I was first here in 1962. +I was on a boat. And I went to Costa Rica and a few other countries. I +came back here in January of 1963. I have been here since January of +1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. December of 1961. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to leave Cuba? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I left Cuba because they were about to put me in the +Armed Forces. I didn't care to. I wasn't in agreement with the present +government, so I took off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you get out? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. On a boat. I came out on a small boat, a small merchant +ship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work on that boat then or where did you go? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I had been working on this boat for about 3 years and 2 +months. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the boat that sunk? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of +the same company, Barcelona Co., that sunk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then +here to New Orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the +United States? + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to ask him a couple of things on this +because as I get it in my mind, it seems that he was on a boat. + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. First of all, I was on this boat called the _Barcelona_ +in the Pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another +boat, the _San Jose_, that first traveled to some other countries, and +then when I got to New Orleans, this is where I asked for my political +asylum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 +Decatur Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked there? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 +year and 3 months. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Orest Pena? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ruperto Pena? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Carlos Bringuier? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have information that you saw a man whom you believe +to be Lee Harvey Oswald in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us +all about that? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. These men came into the bar, two men came into the +bar, one of them which I learned later through TV and pictures and +newspapers was Oswald. These men came into the bar. One of them spoke +Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered the tequila, so I told +him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I brought him the +tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price, thought it +was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a +Cuban, but an American citizen, and that surely--words to the effect +that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a +little debate about the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I +later learned was Oswald ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to +give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest +Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest told me to take a little of +this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him 25 cents for +the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know the names of these men at that time, did +you? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't know the names of them then; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke +Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not +speak Spanish; is that right? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak +Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time of the day did this happen? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock +in the morning. I am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best +of my recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were either of these men drunk? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around +the Latin-appearing man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an +American citizen. Were you referring to the man that was with Oswald, +or Orest Pena, the owner of the bar? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the +owner of the bar was a Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but +an American citizen. That's the way that was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was +with Oswald? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, +but he appeared to be a Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. +He could have been a Mexican; he could have been a Cuban, but at this +point, I don't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did this man look like? + +Mr. LOGAN. You want a description of him? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; how old? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark +hair on his arms. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he? + +Mr. LOGAN. He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is +about the same build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He +was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he weighed approximately? + +Mr. LOGAN. He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact +weight, but he would guess around the same weight as I appear to be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he weighed about 155 pounds or so? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he taller or shorter than Oswald? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Just a little taller than Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what color his hair was? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He had a high forehead, you might say. He had this back +here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He had a receding hairline in the front? + +Mr. LOGAN. He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding +on the sides toward--at the front. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight +because Oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position +most of the time. Therefore, I wasn't able to get a good look, but he +was a little shorter than 5 feet 8, the height of the other man. He was +a little shorter than that, maybe 5 feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't +tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing up too straight at the +time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat +down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald become sick? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He became sick on the table and on the floor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then did he go in the street and continue being sick? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where +he continued to be sick. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was Oswald wearing? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a +short-sleeved white shirt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie on? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this +thing was hanging from one side of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a clip-on bow tie? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It was a clip-on thing as I recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen; what month? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 +year ago, and I presume it was in August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Orest Pena went to Puerto Rico? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember when Orest went to Puerto Rico. I don't +recall when Orest went to Puerto Rico. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went to Puerto Rico or +afterward or while he was gone? Do you remember specifically? Do you +remember that he did go to Puerto Rico? + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell +me where he was going. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when he went on vacation? Think of it +in comparison to the time that Oswald was in the bar. Was Oswald in +the bar before Orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on +vacation. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he couldn't have been on vacation at the time? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was because at that +time, I recall I had to ask Orest how to make the lemonade for Oswald, +so---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now think again, and think if this was before Orest went +on vacation or afterward. + +Mr. LOGAN. The incident, you mean, in the bar? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before or after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested and +went to jail? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I remember him being arrested, but I don't remember--I +remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested, but--I was on the street +and I saw Carlos. I saw Carlos Bringuier talking to the policeman at +the time that he was arrested, but I didn't see him get into the +police car because I took off. I left because I thought I might be +following the same path. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you walking when you saw Carlos arrested? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I was in a car passing in the street when I saw Carlos +talking with the police. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you in the car? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest Pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is +how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the +Habana Bar when we saw Carlos. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Bringuier that day? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know whether Orest saw him or not. Orest was +doing the driving. I am not sure whether he saw him or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before or after you saw Carlos in +the street with the policeman? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before +Oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but I can't remember +well enough to be exact. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it was about that time that you saw Oswald in the +bar; is that right? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation +to days, you know, that same period. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Do you remember whether you and Orest saw Carlos in +the street before Orest went on vacation or afterward? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before Orest went on +vacation or after that I saw Carlos in the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there? That's right, +is it not? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. He was in the bar when Oswald was there. + +Mr. LOGAN. He says he is trying to remember the best he can. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He is doing very well. + +Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to +remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Oswald? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. +Orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald +and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, +which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and +Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest come up and talk to them when you had this +argument about the lemonade and tequila? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest never talked to Oswald or the other man during +this altercation about the tequila. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, Orest never came up or +looked at them or saw them while they were there? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, Orest Pena never saw +these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, Orest was talking on +the telephone, and when I asked him about the lemonade, he just told me +what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody else with Carlos and the policeman at +the time you saw Carlos on the street with the policeman as you have +already told us? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. At the time I saw Carlos Bringuier on the street with +the police, I didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but +I remember slightly that there were probably three other people in +the police car at the time, but I don't know who they were, and I was +passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any +attention to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see Oswald there? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see Oswald at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Celso Hernandez? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, +as you have told us, was Oswald? + +Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to break this down for him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say so far? + +Mr. LOGAN. He is answering an entirely different question, something +about Bringuier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think we should put this on the record. + +Mr. LOGAN. Let me find out if he understood the question first because +the thing is, I think he has got something else in mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is the problem. + +Mr. LOGAN. I will get that out of him, too, the part you want. + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. LOGAN. No, no. He doesn't get the message, and I am sure I am +saying it plain enough. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the name of this man? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first time that I knew that the man in the bar was +Oswald was--the first time that I realized that the man in the bar was +Oswald was after President Kennedy had been assassinated and I saw +Oswald's picture in the paper with his name and so forth, and that's +how I first became aware or first came to realize that the man who had +been in the bar with the Latin-appearing man was the same person as +Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with Orest Pena after you became +aware that the man in the bar was the same man as the man whom we think +shot President Kennedy? And specifically, I want to ask you if Orest +Pena recognized Oswald's picture independently from you or if he only +became aware that it was Oswald that was in the bar after you called it +to his attention. + +Mr. LOGAN. All right. I will ask him the first one and then I will ask +him the second one. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first question is that I actually heard the news of +the President's death on the radio, and they still hadn't given out the +name of the assassin, who they thought it was. So later on when it came +out in the newspaper, I saw the picture in the newspaper of Oswald, and +then I pointed out to Orest that this was the fellow who was in the bar +and had the argument about the lemonade or about the tequila, rather, +and not in the bar at the time because the other fellow argued about +the tequila. + +Mr. LOGAN. Now what was that number two again? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest mention it to you first by himself? Did he know +that that man had been in the bar, or did he only come to think that +after you had pointed out to him it was the same man that you thought +had bought the lemonade? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest had never seen this man whose picture was in +the paper that I recognized as being the man in the bar and who the +paper described as Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Bringuier that the man that was in the +bar with Oswald was being sought by the FBI, being looked for by the +FBI? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I told Bringuier that Oswald had been in the bar. This +is after, of course, I discovered that it was Oswald. But I don't +remember ever telling Bringuier that the FBI was looking for these +people or either one of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, you did not tell +Bringuier that the FBI was looking for this man that was with Oswald? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I never told Bringuier that the FBI was looking for the +man that was with Oswald. I only mentioned to Bringuier that Oswald was +the same one that had been in there that had been drinking lemonade in +that bar previously. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in saying that the only times that you have +been in New Orleans are, one, the period of time beginning in January +of 1963 to the present time, and once before at one prior time, the +exact date of which I do not recall, but you tell me. Those two times. +Are there any other times you have been in New Orleans? Let me rephrase +the question: You came to New Orleans in January of 1963 and have been +here ever since, and you were in New Orleans at least once prior to +that time. Tell me when that was. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I got on a boat in Cuba. We went to Mexico. Then we went +to New York with sugar. Then we went to Norfolk, and from Norfolk, we +went to Bermuda, and then to the Dominican Republic. + +Mr. LOGAN. Unless you want that. I just told him that whole route was +not important if he could come down to the exact month he was in New +Orleans. Here's the thing: He says now that the very first time he was +ever in New Orleans was on a boat that came from Cuba in April of 1959. +He was working on a boat that landed in New Orleans in April of 1959. +Now he doesn't remember the exact month in 1961 that he was in New +Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever in New Orleans in 1962? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, I was here in May of +1962 where I caught the ship _Barcelona_. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Orest Pena at that time? + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. LOGAN. As I get it, he knew Orest not well, but he knew him. Had +seen him at the bar, around the bars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to him in May of 1962 in his bar +here in New Orleans? + +Mr. LOGAN. He remembers probably he talked to Orest during May of 1962. +I asked him what they talked about. He said, "Like small talk about +boats, about this, about that. Nothing in particular." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar in May of 1962 with Orest Pena at any +time when Orest Pena got into a fight or big argument with another man? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember Orest being in a fight with anybody in +the bar in 1962, in May of 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest Pena ever say to you in words or in substance +that Castro should have been notified about something as soon as +possible, and particularly, in May of 1962? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember him saying anything like that. + +Mr. LOGAN. What he was telling me in all this flurry was that Orest, +as far as political situations, is happy with his life here in the +United States, and I have asked him three times if he remembers Orest +making any statement like that, that Castro should have been notified +immediately, and he says he has never heard him say anything like that. +He doesn't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any fight that Orest got into with +another man? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember anything about a fight or a discussion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right [handing picture to witness]. I show you a +picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if +you can identify anybody in that picture. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I identify Oswald as the man with the X on him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I draw your attention particularly to the man standing +to Oswald's right, and the second man behind him, who appears to have +leaflets in his hand, wearing a tie and short-sleeved white shirt, and +facing directly into the camera. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The only one that I am able to identify in that picture +is Oswald himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man that was in the bar? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The same man that was in the bar as previously mentioned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that in your mind? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am positive of this. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a photograph that +has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize +that man. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but the first picture is +a much better photograph in my mind for identifying Oswald. In other +words, I was able to tell in the first photograph that the man was +Oswald. In this photograph, the second photograph that I have been +shown---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. "Garner Exhibit No. 1." + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that he is clear in his mind that +the man with the X in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" is the man who was +in the bar and who he identifies as Lee Harvey Oswald more than he is +about the man shown in Garner Exhibit No. 1. + +Do you have any question that that man was in your bar, referring to +the man portrayed in "Garner Exhibit No. 1?" + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. As far as this "Exhibit No. 1," a man appears to be +Oswald as I recognize him from newspaper pictures of Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to "Garner Exhibit No. 1." But the man in +"Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" looks more like the man who was in the bar? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" I have identified +as the man who I learned later was Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which +has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks +like the man who was in the bar. + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This appears to me that this is the man. It looks +somewhat like the man that was in the bar with Oswald, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Like the man that was in the bar with Oswald? + +Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's what he said? + +Mr. LOGAN. Now he says no. He says that this--how do you want to call +it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C." + +Mr. LOGAN. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C" does not appear like the man in +bar. The other man was more of a Latin-appearing man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you ever seen this man, set forth in +"Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," in the bar at all; at any time? + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is he saying? + +Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that this reminds him of Oswald because of +these--the eye part here [indicating], the sagging eyes, like, you +know--I don't know how you want to say that--like he has puffy eyelids. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has an area around the eyes---- + +Mr. LOGAN. That reminds him of Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he identify this man as Oswald? + +Mr. LOGAN. He says that the man in this exhibit appears to him to be +Oswald, but, of course, he says it has been a long time since he saw +him and he is not ready to be positive on that. That's as close as you +can come to it, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure that this was the man that was in the +bar? + +Mr. LOGAN. Now he says it is him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is or isn't? + +Mr. LOGAN. In his mind, "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" which has the man +with the X on him is the man who was in the bar and who he later +learned was Oswald. This picture stands out in his mind the best, +reminds him of the man the best; this one---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C." + +Mr. LOGAN. Appears to him to be Oswald, but he still says that the +other photograph is the one that he can best identify him as the man +who was in the bar. What we have got going here is the fact that this +looks like Oswald, but he is--probably since the other photograph +reminds him distinctly of the fact that that was the man that was in +the bar, he is a little reluctant to say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA + +The testimony of Orest Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old +Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by +Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Orest Pena, having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as +follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record. + +Mr. PENA. Orest Pena. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's O-r-e-s-t P-e-n-a; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. PENA. 117 Decatur. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your place of business or is that your residence? + +Mr. PENA. No; that's my place of business. On the ground floor is my +place of business. On the second floor, in the rear of the second floor +I live. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney for the President's Commission. I +understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last week +and you are here under that subpena at this time. The rules of the +Commission entitle you to have your lawyer present if you wish. + +Mr. PENA. I don't think I need him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have the right under our rules not to answer +any question that you don't want to answer in the first instance, +specifying the reasons if you do refuse to answer any questions. + +I am here under the authority granted to the Commission by Executive +Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of +Congress No. 137. I understand that attached to the subpena are copies +of the Executive order that I have referred to and rules of the +Commission; is that correct? + +(The witness handed document to counsel.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are attached. + +Where were you born, Mr. Pena? + +Mr. PENA. In Colon, Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When? + +Mr. PENA. August 15, 1923. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a citizen of the United States? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a citizen? + +Mr. PENA. I became a citizen May 5, 1956. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you became a citizen through naturalization; is that +correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The place of business that you have at 117 Decatur Street +is a bar and lounge? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of it? + +Mr. PENA. Habana Bar and Lounge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you have a brother by +the name of Ruperto Pena? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he work with you in the bar and lounge? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I also correct in understanding that one of the +bartenders is named Evaristo Rodriguez? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Bringuier connected with a clothing store located +close to your bar and lounge? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet Mr. Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. When he came to the--if I am not wrong, I believe I met him +when he started the store. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long ago was it that you met Mr. +Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Might be a year and a half or 2 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bringuier is active in anti-Castro Cuban affairs; is +that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any connection with Cuban politics? + +Mr. PENA. Not with him, but with something else here in New Orleans, an +organization, about 4 years ago, more or less. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What organization was that? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. The FBI know very well because a person from +the FBI was there all the time. I don't remember exactly the name of +the organization right now, but the organization was in the Balter +Building, I think, in the second floor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whatever the organization's name was, was it an +anti-Castro Cuban organization? + +Mr. PENA. It was in the Balter Building, the only one there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the organization sometimes known as Jure, J-u-r-e? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. _Junta Revolucionaria_ Cubana? + +Mr. PENA. The chief or the boss of that organization, who was in Miami, +Barrona. He was the boss of that organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Barrona? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. He was the boss of that organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba? + +Mr. PENA. I left Cuba in September 1946. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been back to Cuba since that time? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when? + +Mr. PENA. Oh, many times I went to Cuba. My last time I went to Cuba +was about 8 months, I believe, after Castro took over, but before, I +used to go very often because all my family is in Cuba, my mother, my +father--before my father died, I used to go to Cuba many times. I was a +seaman, too. I used to ship out with the United Fruit Co. and the Lykes +Brothers Co. That's before Castro took over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you stop working as a seaman? + +Mr. PENA. Just before I went in business, in--I went in business 1958. +I stop in 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You stopped working as a seaman in 1957? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in Cuba in April or May of 1959? + +Mr. PENA. I think that's the last time I was in Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Cuba at that time? + +Mr. PENA. I went to Cuba--I don't know. I went to have an operation. +Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in Cuba, did you have any contact with any +officials in the Castro government? + +Mr. PENA. No; not any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever expressed a favorable attitude toward the +Castro regime? + +Mr. PENA. No; I never was for--I was against Batista, but I never was +even--I didn't even know Castro. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had nothing to do with Castro? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you came back to the United States from Cuba in +1959---- + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go directly back to the United States? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go anywhere else---- + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Except to Cuba on that trip? + +Mr. PENA. No; I came back to--I went from here to--directly from here +to Havana and from Havana to New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After your trip to Cuba in 1959, when was the next time +that you were out of the United States? + +Mr. PENA. It was last summer. I went on vacation to Mexico. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there? + +Mr. PENA. Nine days. I plan 2 weeks, but I got sick to my stomach, so I +came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that strictly a vacation trip? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It had nothing to do with politics or anything like that? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have your passport here, Mr. Pena? + +Mr. PENA. Yes [handing document to counsel]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has handed me his passport, which is numbered +D-0092577, and issued on June 25, 1963. It carries the name of Orest +Pena and indicates a birth date of August 15, 1923, that the birthplace +is Cuba, that he is 5 feet 8 inches tall, has black hair and brown eyes. + +After you went to Mexico in May of 1963, when did you next leave the +United States? + +Mr. PENA. About 1 or 2 months after that vacation I went to Puerto Rico +for 1 week and to the Dominican Republic for 1 week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us exactly when it was that you left New +Orleans at that time to go to Puerto Rico? + +Mr. PENA. I don't remember, but you have it there, the date I entered +the Dominican Republic. I went 1 week before that by Delta Co., +directly from New Orleans to San Juan, P.R., by Delta Airlines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you indicating a visa stamp on page 6 of the +passport, which is difficult to read? + +Mr. PENA. The 22d of August; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. August 22? + +Mr. PENA. But then I got to Puerto Rico about the 14th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Fourteenth or fifteenth of August? + +Mr. PENA. Fourteenth or fifteenth, something like that, of August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave New Orleans? + +Mr. PENA. You leave New Orleans around 12 o'clock. About 3 hours later +you are in San Juan, P.R. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been August 13 or 14? + +Mr. PENA. The 13th or 14th of August I left New Orleans. Then, after I +got to Puerto Rico, 1 week after that I went to the Dominican Republic. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, I would like to make arrangements with the +Secret Service agent who is here to make photographic copies of this +passport and to mark it in connection with our deposition. Would it be +agreeable with you to deliver it to him now? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. You can get the exact date by Delta Airlines I went to +Puerto Rico. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It seems from the visa that if you went to Puerto Rico a +week before you went to the Dominican Republic, the stamp here shows +it would have been around the 13th or 14th of August 1963, and that's +close enough. + +(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) + + +TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA RESUMED + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Puerto Rico and the +Dominican Republic in August? + +Mr. PENA. Just a vacation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Cuba at that time? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any contact with any representatives of +the Cuban Government while you were in Puerto Rico or the Dominican +Republic? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any contact with any such representatives at +any time during 1963? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in May of 1964, you took a trip to Europe; is that +correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You then went to London? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Paris? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Madrid? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Rome? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Munich? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Berlin? + +Mr. PENA. No; I did not go to Munich. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Munich? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your plane land in Munich on the way to Berlin? + +Mr. PENA. No. From Rome, I went to Frankfurt, Germany, and I stayed +there about--I think about an hour and a half, something like that, +to make connections on the next plane to Berlin, and then coming back +from Berlin, fly from Berlin to Frankfurt again, from Frankfurt took +Lufthansa, and directly to New York, and from New York, I wait about +3 hours and took the Eastern Airlines, a night trip, to New Orleans +straight again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of that trip? + +Mr. PENA. Just a vacation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with any agents of any foreign +government at any time other than the custom officials and that sort of +thing? + +Mr. PENA. Oh, when I went to Berlin; I went for--when I was in Berlin, +I took a tour for 4 hours to East Berlin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents +of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Steinmeyer and Mr. Logan. +Do you remember that? + +Mr. PENA. I have been interviewed by the FBI so many times I don't +remember. Something. But it might be true. You tell me about what to +refresh my mind, and I can tell you about whether that is true or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me come back to that in just a moment. Do you +remember being interviewed by two FBI agents on June 9, 1964, when you +and Mr. Tamberella went to the FBI office here in New Orleans? + +Mr. PENA. That's about 2 weeks ago? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember generally what you told them at that time? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us? + +Mr. PENA. What, approximately, I can remember? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us now what you told them at that time? + +Mr. PENA. Well, they asked me in connection with the--Mr. Kennedy, the +late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything +about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if +I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business +with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long +bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, +Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know +exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a +customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That +was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer +asked for a lemonade. So my bartender--he learned to be a bartender at +my place of business; he was a seaman before--he came to me and said, +"The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He +didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple +of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge?" +I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went back and made a lemonade and put +it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the +lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ask for the tequila or did his friend? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I was away from there. I didn't pay +any attention. They got mad about the 25 cents for the lemonade and +50 cents for the tequila, so they asked my bartender, Evaristo, why +I charge so much for the drinks and I was a capitalist charging too +much for the drinks. He went and came to me and told me about it. I +said, "Don't worry about it. They pay you already?" "Yes." "Don't worry +about it." If you are going to worry about all the customers, you are +going to go crazy. Then I don't know whether he left or something, +but he vomited after that; Oswald did. I don't know anything but +they walked away; that's all. When the assassination happened, they +put the pictures over on the television, so I saw Oswald and I said, +"That's the man who came to my place one time, the man who ordered +the lemonade." Evaristo came and said, "Look! That's the man that +assassinated Mr. Kennedy is the one that was here one time." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told this to Rodriguez? + +Mr. PENA. No; he told me. I identified to him by the television. I saw +him that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You recognized Oswald yourself even before Rodriguez came +to you and told you about that; is that right? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. When he told me about the lemonade, I took a look at +the customer; took a look and forget about it. No sense in going about +there and discuss with him, and then all of that was forgotten. After +the assassination, we were speaking about that man was here one time. +We used to go to Bringuier's place about the incident that we got with +Oswald, and Bringuier is very much interested. He called--my brother +called Bringuier. We didn't pay any attention until the FBI came one +time and asked me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did come and ask you about this? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; so when the---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that shortly after the assassination? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. So I told him just like I tell you. Then they start +coming, and over and over and over, and then I told the same thing what +I knew about, and that's all I know about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time? + +Mr. PENA. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other +time? + +Mr. PENA. The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than +anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am +Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, +about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be +a Cuban. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this man might be a Cuban? + +Mr. PENA. To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I +wasn't even too close to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were never too close to this man? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald clearly enough to be absolutely sure +in your mind that it was Oswald in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see this Cuban-looking man that was with him +at any other time or any other place? + +Mr. PENA. No. See, after--that was before the assassination of Mr. +Kennedy--there was an incident in my place. Two guys came. They said +they were Mexican. They didn't look like Mexicans. They looked more +like Cubans. They came to my place. I got a bongo with a chain. I got +two bongoes for the people to play that with the music. I got a chain +because I lose one of them one time. Maybe some guy was drunk. That's +why I put a chain on it so they can't take it away. I was fixing the +bongo on that day and they came in. They came to see me. They said, +"That's what you have to have here in this country, a chain?" I was mad +because one of the customers broke the bongo. I said, "What you mean +by that?" When I got mad, I got a little bit--I don't know--aggressive +by the way I speak. So I told them, "What you mean by that?" They +said, "Well, in this country you have to put a chain?" I said, "That's +so they don't take the bongo away." They said, "This is a democratic +country?" I said, "Where you come from?" He said, "I come from Mexico." +I said, "Don't tell me about Mexico; you take a car to Mexico, they +steal the four wheels away." So right away they saw me mad, so they +left, so I called the--I think I called the FBI and told them about +it. I told them where they walk, which way they walked. They say, "If +they come back to your place, call us again." I just forgot about it. I +never saw them no more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call the FBI yourself, do you remember that? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you call the FBI about these men? + +Mr. PENA. I don't like it, the way they were, the way they spoke about +the country here, so--I didn't like it, so I called the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the FBI told you if they came back---- + +Mr. PENA. If they came back, to please call them back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who you talked to at the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. See, I used to call De Brueys. You are +from Washington, huh? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. I am going to talk to you about De Brueys and the FBI agency +in New Orleans, in Louisiana. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you talked to De Brueys at this time? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Sometimes you call there and they tell +you he is not in there and you talk to somebody else if you want to +give the message in the FBI, see, because De Brueys isn't there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, these two Mexicans that came into your bar and with +whom you had the discussion about the bongo drums, were they the same +men or the same man that was with Oswald when he was in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they appear to you to have been entirely different +people? + +Mr. PENA. Well, I know it was not Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at the time you had the argument with +the men about the bongo drums? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not either of the men who argued +with you about the bongo drums had been with Oswald when he was in the +bar? + +Mr. PENA. See, the man was over--I can't identify him. I can't. Oswald +I did because of the lemonade. I looked to him, that's all, but the +other guy I can't identify. He looked like a Cuban, but I can't say +that exactly. Maybe if I would see him again I would say, "Well, that's +the man." + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to say whether the two men who argued +with you about the bongo drums had any connection with Oswald or had +been with Oswald when he was in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. I can't say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't recognize either of these two men that argued +with you about the bongo drums as the men that had been with Oswald +before? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen these Mexicans before they argued with +you about the bongo drums? + +Mr. PENA. I don't think they were Mexicans. They speak very, very +different, and they looked like Cubans. They spoke something like +Cubans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see them again after that time? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw them before that time, to the best of your +knowledge? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the story that you told to the FBI after the +assassination, that you had seen Oswald in the bar and Rodriguez had +seen him in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. More or less. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI 2 weeks ago, did they ask you +about this again? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; they asked me about this more than a dozen times. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you more than a dozen times about this? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did they come to your bar to ask you about this? + +Mr. PENA. They come to my bar. They been calling me to come to the FBI +office. That's why sometimes--one time I went down and got a lawyer. I +don't need a lawyer about for this. I just tell you the truth. When I +finish with him--you are from Washington. I tell you, Bringuier hates +the United States as much as he hates Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier does? + +Mr. PENA. The day Mr. Kennedy put a blockade in Cuba--you remember, +about a year and a half, more or less--Mr. Carlos Bringuier was telling +me--excuse me--(obscenity) in Spanish more than a dozen times, and I +couldn't stand that. I have never done anything against the United +States. I said, "No." Anyway, anything you want to ask me--and you can +ask Mr. Bringuier is that true or not, and let him and me take a lie +detector test to see who is right on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have never done anything against the +interests of the United States? + +Mr. PENA. No; I have not ever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have no reason whatsoever not to believe that +statement, Mr. Pena. + +Mr. PENA. Okay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that Mr. Bringuier hates the United States +more than he does Russia? + +Mr. PENA. Because he does as much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As much? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he dislike the United States? Has he ever told +you? + +Mr. PENA. No; but the way he talks, that the United States didn't help +to overthrow Castro, and he can go over there and take over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the basis for Mr. Bringuier's bad feeling towards +the United States, that we haven't done anything to overcome the Castro +regime? + +Mr. PENA. Well, the way he talks to me, he hates the United States +as much as he hates Russia. That's what I told you, what he said, +more than a dozen times. And if that is not true, let him take a lie +detector test and find out whether that is true or not true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mr. Bringuier about having seen Oswald in +the bar? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; we was talking about that day. You see, I did like very, +very much Mr. Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did or did not? + +Mr. PENA. I did. Very, very much. So I was hurt when he got killed. So +when I saw the man there--I saw the man--so I went around and told most +of my customers that I saw Oswald came to my place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI on June 9, 1964, you told +them, did you not, that you had never told anybody that Oswald had been +in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. That I never told anybody? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. That's not true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell that to the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. I don't think that's so. That I never told anybody? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. I didn't told anybody before? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report before me, Mr. Pena, of an interview of +you in the presence of your attorney, Mr. Tamberella, which was made +by Mr. De Brueys and Mr. Wall. That was in the FBI office on June 9, +and on page 2 of this particular report, which is page 14 of the larger +report, it says, and I quote: "Orest Pena specifically stated he had +never told anyone, including Carlos Bringuier, that Oswald had been in +the Habana Bar with a Mexican prior to the assassination of President +Kennedy. He also said he never heard his brother, Ruperto Pena, say +that Oswald had been in the bar with a Mexican. He also stated that he +had no information that the FBI was ever looking for a Mexican who had +ever patronized his bar." Did you tell the FBI that? + +Mr. PENA. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you did tell Bringuier that you had seen Oswald +in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. When we were talking after the assassination, we were talking +about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents back in December that Oswald +had been in the bar and that you had seen him? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that Rodriguez had seen him there, too? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; that's the first time they interviewed me about Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, as far as I can tell. I have only two +reports. + +Mr. PENA. Last year, you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. In 1963. I have a report dated December 5, 1963, of an +interview with you in which you told the FBI that you had seen Oswald +in the bar and then I have a report of the interview on June 9, 1964, +a month ago, which says that you told them that you never told anybody +that Oswald had been in the bar and, of course, that's one of the +reasons why we called you in and wanted to talk to you because there is +an apparent conflict between the two FBI reports that we have on that +question. Now let me ask you this: You have a good deal of hostility +toward the FBI, do you not? + +Mr. PENA. We got to talk about something else before I tell about the +FBI in New Orleans, so you let me know so I tell about the FBI, what I +think about it, if I can express myself well enough to put my point of +view about some of the agents of the FBI in New Orleans. Anyway, I will +tell you. See if you can understand my view. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. Let's get to that later. Regardless of what it +says in this FBI report, the fact is, you did see Oswald in the bar and +you did tell Bringuier, didn't you? + +Mr. PENA. We was talking about--I know we was talking about it with +so many people around there, I can't tell you exactly. I know he knew +because we was talking about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Did you actually see the man who ordered the +lemonade in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when it was that you saw +Oswald in the bar? Now in this connection, let me help your thinking +about it by reminding you that you went to Puerto Rico on about August +13 or 14, 1963. Was it before that or after that that you saw Oswald? + +Mr. PENA. I don't remember exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember? + +Mr. PENA. No; it wasn't easy then. There was nothing in the incident. +He had money to pay for it and we just forgot about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember whether it was before you went to +Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic or afterward? + +Mr. PENA. No; I can't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother, Ruperto, ever tell you that the two men +who had given you a hard time about the bongo drums had come back to +the bar? + +Mr. PENA. He told me something about that he saw the men passing by in +a car and he called Bringuier and so Bringuier called the FBI, so they +said that they called the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Ruperto in the bar when you had the argument with the +fellow about the bongo drums? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you say that Ruperto saw these two men later on +driving past the bar; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. I wasn't there that date. I wasn't around there that date. He +saw the two men and the FBI told me if I see them coming to my place, +to call them. He saw the two men sitting in a car and--I don't know +exactly. He went to Bringuier and told Bringuier, so Bringuier called +the FBI. That's what they said. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no personal knowledge of any of that? + +Mr. PENA. No. I believe my brother told me he saw the men or something, +but I didn't pay no attention about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There's no connection between these two men that your +brother, Ruperto, saw and the man who was in the bar with Oswald as far +as you know? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Ruperto was in the bar when +Oswald was there? + +Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Evaristo Rodriguez there? + +Mr. PENA. When Oswald was there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. He was the one who was serving Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that +has previously been marked as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and I ask you +if you recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mr. PENA. Yes, Oswald; I recognize him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is Oswald? + +Mr. PENA. Oswald is marked in some way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has an "X" on him, is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the place where this picture was taken? + +Mr. PENA. I know about it now because I seen in the FBI. They have a +place. Put it on the television. That's the International Trade Mart, I +believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI put this picture on television? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly if that picture or another picture, but +they got Oswald and a group--I don't know if this group--handing out +propaganda to other people. I got in an argument with the FBI about +that, too. I told them if they had that propaganda paper, why don't +they find out the printing, where they printing that propaganda, and +that would be easy to find the other people. See, I---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why, because if they found the place where the propaganda +was printed, they would---- + +Mr. PENA. Yes. Those people might know Oswald and many other people in +connection with Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you if I told you we do know who +printed the handbills? + +Mr. PENA. Well--you say you do know? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. Okay. I took two courses in investigation work, one from the +International Detective School, and one from the Applied Sciences of +Chicago. The big man there is an ex-FBI man, Mr. Dickerson Cook. So I +took that course, too. After I finished, he sent me a letter. I like +investigation very much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me point out to you a young man in this picture. He +is the second man to Oswald's right and behind. He is standing there +with some leaflets in his hand. He has a white, short-sleeved shirt on +and a tie, and he appears to be handing out leaflets. Did you ever see +that man before? + +Mr. PENA. I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could he have been the man who was with Oswald in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. I couldn't say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody else in that picture except +Oswald, is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which +has been previously identified as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask +you if you recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mr. PENA. I recognize Oswald there [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has a green "X" line over his head? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anyone else in the picture? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I ask you the same question +with respect to "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B." + +Mr. PENA. I recognize him [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With the green marking over his head? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And no one else? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which +has been previously identified as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you +if you recognize that man. + +Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him as the same man who was in the bar? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that +has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you can +identify that man. + +Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's the same man who was in your bar? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was Oswald who +was in your bar? + +Mr. PENA. He was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was there? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in my understanding of your previous +testimony that after you saw the picture of Oswald on television after +the assassination, you, yourself, recognized that as the man that had +been in the bar, even before Rodriguez mentioned it to you? + +Mr. PENA. Well, I seen it and I came down. I was talking about it, and +I recognized him right away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Even before Rodriguez spoke to you about it, or was it +after Rodriguez spoke to you about it? + +Mr. PENA. I was talking about it, and the man was in my place, you +know. Then Rodriguez came over and said, "You remember that man who was +drinking that lemonade?" Then my mind got clear. He just run from his +house to my house to tell me about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Oswald on television before Rodriguez told +you about it and you thought you recognized him as having been in the +place? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then Rodriguez reminded you of the lemonade and then it +became clear in your mind that Oswald was the man who had ordered the +lemonade and had been in your place? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez told the FBI that shortly after Oswald had been +in the bar, after the lemonade incident, that he went to a doctor's +office with you and this was just before you went to Puerto Rico and +the Dominican Republic. Do you have any recollection of that? + +Mr. PENA. We went to a doctor's office? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. To be more specific, Rodriguez said that while he +was riding back in the car with you, he saw Bringuier in the street +with some policemen. Do you know anything about that? + +Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. They got some kind of trouble. I went out. Yes. And +they got some group, or two or three people was giving propaganda away, +and Bringuier and one or two more guys went and started an argument +with the guy who was giving the propaganda away in Canal Street. Then +the police came down and they arrested him. Bringuier, and one or +two more Cubans, and one more guy. I don't know the guy. I have seen +him, but I don't know the guy. And they put them in jail in the first +district, and they was calling Bringuier's brother-in-law. His name +is--it is---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Hernandez? Is that Celso Hernandez? + +Mr. PENA. No. They called me up there. I say, "Well--" so I went over +there and put a bond, $20, so they can come out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually went to the police station and put up bond +for Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was so that Bringuier could get out? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. One or two more guys. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing the incident in the street as you +drove by? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you about it later on? He told you +that he had seen it? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that when he was with you at that time? +Did he mention it after the doctor's appointment where you had been +together? + +Mr. PENA. What you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you that he had seen Bringuier in the +street on the way back from the doctor's appointment when he was with +you? + +Mr. PENA. I don't remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you, yourself, did not see Bringuier in the +street with the policemen at that time, and later on, after Bringuier +had been arrested, you went over to the police station and put the bond +up for Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. His brother-in-law in the store told me about it. He say, "I +can't leave the store by myself." I said, "How much would the bond be?" +Then I said, "Okay, I put the bond. Then you give it back to me." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now that was shortly before you went to Puerto Rico; is +that correct? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the incident with regard to the +bond was about the time that Oswald was in the bar and ordered the +lemonade, or was it not about at that time? Do you remember? + +Mr. PENA. I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember one time about in May or so of 1962 that +you got into a fight in your bar with some man who was standing there +listening to you talk to some of your friends? + +Mr. PENA. I got so many fights in my place I don't know which one it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Garcia? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Hector José Garcia? + +Mr. PENA. Hector José Garcia? + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have a report that there was a man in your bar who +heard you talking to two merchant seamen, and you are reported to +have said: "Castro should have been notified about that as soon as +possible." Do you remember saying anything about that? + +Mr. PENA. That Castro should be notified about it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That Castro should have been notified about that as soon +as possible. + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with Castro? + +Mr. PENA. No; not ever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rodriguez had worked as a merchant seaman +prior to the time he went to work as a bartender, is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About what time did he start working as a bartender? + +Mr. PENA. When he came. His ship sunk and--somewhere in Costa Rica--and +they was transferred to New Orleans, and the company--agency that +he worked for bring him to New Orleans, bring a whole bunch to New +Orleans. They know I got room up in the house on the third floor. They +ask me if I got rooms, so I rent rooms to those guys, so--Evaristo, +too--so in that time, I put Evaristo to work for me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how long ago was that? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I know it's over a year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Over a year? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do have a lot of fights and difficulties in your bar, +is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. Arguments. You know, a barroom. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the anti-Castro organization that you worked with +called the Cuban Revolutionary Council? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the name of it? + +Mr. PENA. And the delegate here was Serrgio Arcacha. He was the boss of +the organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember having your picture in the paper at one +time---- + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this, on the front page? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been some time in late December of 1960 +approximately? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that when you talked to the FBI just last +month, they asked you when you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican +Republic in August of 1963, and they asked you the days? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you subsequently discuss that with your attorney, +Mr. Tamberella? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. Well, see, why, the reason I took Tamberella with me +was because from my point of view, the FBI of New Orleans ask me about +the same things so many times that somehow I was mad, so I said--about +10, 15 times they ask me the same thing over and over and over, and +Tamberella is my lawyer, so I went to Tamberella and said, "Look! They +look silly to me." They say the same thing so much, so I want to see if +I can't stop this. If they come around asking me something else, that's +okay, but for the same thing, I can't tell no more about that. He said, +"Okay, I go with you." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now my reports indicate that Mr. Tamberella called the +FBI office back after your interview and told the FBI that you had left +for Puerto Rico on August 8, 1963. + +Mr. PENA. August 8? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That you were not able to tell them the exact date +at the time of the interview, but later, Mr. Tamberella told them that. +That does not appear to be correct, does it? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. It wasn't in the passport, the date? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the date was August 22 in the passport. + +Mr. PENA. The date in the passport was the date I came out of the +Dominican Republic, the 22d. I came back on my way back to New Orleans +the 22d of August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this---- + +Mr. PENA. Yes; might be the day I came out of the Dominican Republic. +I don't know exactly. Might be the 8th because I spent 1 week--if that +date, August 22, is the date I left the Dominican Republic, might be +the 8th because I spent 2 weeks between the two places. Delta Airlines +can give you the date of the flight to Puerto Rico exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only way that you and Mr. Tamberella were able to fix +the date was by looking at the stamp on the passport; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If the visa stamp is the date that you left the Dominican +Republic---- + +Mr. PENA. It would be 14 days before that. I went 1 week in Puerto Rico +and 1 week in the Dominican Republic. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If the date on the stamp was the day you went into the +Dominican Republic---- + +Mr. PENA. It would be 7 days before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely clear in your mind, however, that you +were here in New Orleans on the day that Bringuier was arrested in +connection with the propaganda demonstration on the street because you +put up the bond to get him out. If I told you that that happened on +August 9, 1963, that would indicate that you were here in New Orleans +at that time and that you must have left some time subsequent to August +9, 1963? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. It might be another time, but the time I placed +the bond for him, I was here because I was the one went up to the first +precinct to give the money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time Bringuier had gotten into a fight with +this man over distributing propaganda leaflets? + +Mr. PENA. I didn't see the fight. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he told you about it? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how this fight came about? + +Mr. PENA. Some other Cuban, a friend of Bringuier's, one of the Cubans +I placed the bond for, came to Bringuier's store--that's what they told +me about it, what I hear--and told Bringuier, "Look, Bringuier, there +is a man there giving propaganda against the Cuban Society in favor +of Castro." So Bringuier came out, but the two men got away, and how +they--I don't know what happened, what was the argument, but they got +arrested by the policemen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time when you put up the bond to get him out? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; if that's the same time. I don't know if he got in some +other trouble like that a different time. I don't know. I put bond for +him one time. I don't know if it was--I don't remember exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the description of the incident that you have given +us about the propaganda sounds very much like the one that occurred on +August 9, and the man who was handing out the literature was Oswald, +and Bringuier was arrested along with two other men along with Oswald. +That would seem to place you here in the United States at that time. +We can always check what the procedure is on that visa stamp so we can +figure out when you left the United States. + +Mr. PENA. You don't need a visa to go to Puerto Rico when you are an +American citizen, but the Delta Airlines, if they keep records, can +give you the exact date and the hour I left New Orleans to go to San +Juan, P.R., last summer. I know it was in August because in August is +my birthday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico on your birthday? + +Mr. PENA. Well, I stay there on my birthday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When is your birthday? + +Mr. PENA. August 15. + +Mr. LIEBELER. August 16? + +Mr. PENA. Fifteen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photographic copy of a passport application +dated June 24, 1963, and ask you if that is a copy of the passport +application that you filled out on or about that day [handing document +to witness]. + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is a copy of your passport application, is it? + +Mr. PENA. I believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," +and I will just write it on here if I may. + +(Whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for +identification as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1.") + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," New +Orleans, July 21, 1964, and I have placed my initials on it. Would you +initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the +same document. + +Mr. PENA. Over here [indicating]? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just put your initials on it. + +(Witness complying.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now this application also has a part 2, which is required +to be filled out by naturalized citizens. That is also a part of your +application; is it not? [Handing document to witness.] Is that a part +of your application, too, Mr. Pena? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. Might be. Something wrong here. How--went to +Mexico? I don't know exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What's the problem? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know. Says here I was in Mexico. I don't know when +I went to Mexico. When I got my passport, I don't remember exactly. I +believe I got my passport--when I went to Mexico? How come it says here +I went to Mexico? + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us you went to Mexico in May of 1963, if I am +not mistaken. Is that right? + +Mr. PENA. I know I went to Mexico last year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this passport application, the one that we have +already marked, is dated June 24, and the part, the supplement to it, +or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to +Mexico for 8 days in May of 1963. Now this part that we are looking at +is not signed by you at any point. + +Mr. PENA. You mean that's when I applied for my passport? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; you applied for your passport on June 24, 1963. That +was after you came back from Mexico. You didn't need your passport to +go to Mexico. I don't think you did, anyway. + +Mr. PENA. Yes; I believe so. I got my citizen papers; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But the information that is set forth on this second part +of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to +Cuba in 1959 in May and April, is correct, is it not? + +Mr. PENA. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was around there, +somewhere around there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The information that you came to the United States in +October of 1946 is correct, is it not? That's correct approximately? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you lived at 223 West 105th Street in New York City, +did you not, for a time? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; I lived in that place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the application, the original application that we +have marked as "Exhibit No. 1," which you signed, it indicates, does it +not, that you were going to go to Spain and that you planned to go to +Spain for a vacation trip of approximately 2 weeks. + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now in fact, you didn't go to Spain at that time; is that +right? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What made you change your mind about that? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know; I just changed my mind. I postponed the trip to +Europe for this year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on +vacation? + +Mr. PENA. What? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on +vacation? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. That's where I did take my passport. You also use a +passport. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you fill this application out? + +Mr. PENA. Right here in New Orleans at 701 Loyola Street, if I am not +wrong, the new Federal building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At 701 Loyola Street, the new Federal building? + +Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at the passport office on +the day you applied for this passport? + +Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He applied for a passport on the same day. + +Mr. PENA. He applied for the passport on the same day? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. I don't remember seeing him there. I remember the day I +applied for my passport there were a lot of people from--I don't know +from where, India or Africa. You know, colored people. There were some +people there. They were seamen or something, and one American girl got +all of those colored people. She was helping all of them that day. A +bunch of people there, colored people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of seeing Oswald there at that +time? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, you never saw Oswald at any time +other than that time you saw him in your bar? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any conversation with you; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Not that I recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have any other Federal agencies besides the FBI +interviewed you? + +Mr. PENA. You see, before, they used to go there and say, "We are from +the Federal Bureau," and would just talk to them. I didn't know what +agency. I never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer +told me, "Every time you talk to one of these men, get their name, +where they come from." That was very, very much later. Before, they +would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things +about people that was for Castro. When you got a barroom, especially in +Spanish like I got--most of my customers are Spanish seamen, foreign +seamen--you hear the way they talk, and before, as I was against +Batista--most of the people here for Castro, really for Castro--they +was going to my place. So when I joined the organization against Castro +in New Orleans, one of the agents of the FBI, De Brueys, started going +to my place very, very often asking me about many different people, +Spanish people, what I knew, what I thought. I told him what I knew; +that some people was for Castro and some people was against. I told him +what I saw. I never did ask him what he found out about those people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sometimes you would call the FBI and give them +information, too; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Information that you picked up from conversations that +took place at your bar and listening to those seamen? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have been provided with what are supposed to be all +of the FBI reports about their conversations relating to the Oswald +case, and as far as I can tell, the only time the FBI has spoken to you +about that was back in December 1963, shortly after the assassination, +and then again in June 1964 just a short time ago; when they came to +question you again at my request after I had---- + +Mr. PENA. Just those two times? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just twice. + +Mr. PENA. I believe it's very many more times than that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think it is more times than that? + +Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure these were FBI men? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know because, as I told you before, I didn't used to +get the names until my lawyer told me, "Look! Every time you talk to +one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you +know who you are talking about." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to tell me something about the FBI in New +Orleans. Why don't you do that now. + +Mr. PENA. You see, I started--like I told you, when that organization +moved in New Orleans---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the anti-Castro organization? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. So I went down there and joined the organization. In +1959 when I went to Cuba, my mother told me how everything was going; +so she says, "He is even worse than Batista." So when I came back, I +joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here +in New Orleans. So I went and joined them and started working for the +organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my +own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two +dollars. Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe--I don't know +if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He joined it? + +Mr. PENA. No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the +organization very, very close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They knew he was an FBI agent? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent. So from time to time he +called me at my place. He went to my place and was asking me about this +guy and that guy, different people here in New Orleans. So I told him +what I thought about the men. I tell you that and then you find out if +I am right or if I am wrong. I never did ask if I was right or wrong. +I told him about people that I am for sure they are for Castro here +in New Orleans. So one way or the other, he was interfering with me +somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. De Brueys was interfering with you? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to +the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told +De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to--De +Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in +the FBI office--I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I +don't trust him as an American. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them any reasons why you didn't? + +Mr. PENA. Because he was interfering very close with the organization +against Castro. So since that day--we got in a little bit of argument +there. We was talking about somebody. The FBI asked me about a man that +had been in the group before, about somebody--if I knew somebody--if I +knew his way for signing. So I asked De Brueys, "Did I told you about +this man?" He said, "No." I got mad. I said, "If you said I didn't +told you about that man, I don't trust you as an American, to be for +an American." So 2 days later he went to my place of business. He said +to me at the table, "I want to talk to you." I said, "Okay, let's go." +He said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get +me in big trouble. He said, "I am an FBI man. I can get you in big +trouble." But he made a mistake. I had a girl that was with me that was +here when he was discussing me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Somebody else was there and heard it? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. He was discussing me not to talk about it. He was an +FBI man and he could get me in big trouble. So I talked to my girl +friend and said, "Look, I better pull out of this thing. What the FBI +wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from +those things, politics," so I pull away, and I never did heard from the +FBI any more until Mr. Kennedy got assassinated. They left me alone +completely. They never asked me after I pulled out of the organization. +After that, I never listened to anybody talking about politics in the +place. I tried to keep out of it the most I could. They never did call +me any more until Oswald got--and then they started coming here talking +to me because we was talking about the incident. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So your complaints about the FBI here in New Orleans +relate basically to the anti-Castro proposition and not to the +investigation of the assassination; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. No, no. That was way before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the +investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that +you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right? + +Mr. PENA. You mean after the assassination? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PENA. After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times +about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. They came +over so many times, I said, I better do something about it. I called +my lawyer and said, "Look! I don't know anything else about this. I +want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what I know +about it and I don't want no more part of that." The thing--I got in an +argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the +printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't +know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is +a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with +you." I told him that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who? + +Mr. PENA. I talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they +was printing that propaganda, and I said, "Why can't you find that +place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, +"It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can +be found somehow." + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you told this FBI agent that they should find where +the propaganda literature had been printed? + +Mr. PENA. The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on +television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving +that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away +before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all +of that film taken of Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think they should find where those leaflets were +printed? This is what you told them? + +Mr. PENA. The little bit I know about the investigation, they even--let +me see how to say it. Let me see--they even keep Oswald from killing +Mr. Kennedy. From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all +the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can +put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before +Mr. Kennedy was killed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: Do you have any evidence or do +you know of any evidence that would link Oswald to anybody else in a +conspiracy to assassinate the President? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information or knowledge that Oswald was +involved with pro-Castro people in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. PENA. No; I can't tell you that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that this was a pro-Castro or +a Castro plot to assassinate President Kennedy? + +Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether anybody else in New Orleans has any +information like that? + +Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. What I think about Bringuier? He is just trying to get big +name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to +Cuba. Be one of the bosses. That's my point of view. I told you he +don't like the United States and what I told you about; you can bring +him here and tell him that Orest Pena told you that. I will stand a +lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and I invite De Brueys, +too, to ask De Brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place +and tried to intimidate me. If he say no, I take a lie-detector test +and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one Communist +in the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Bringuier is using his association with +Oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that? + +Mr. PENA. That's what it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Bringuier doesn't have any evidence +that there was a pro-Castro plot to assassinate the President. + +Mr. PENA. No; I don't know. See, Bringuier know Oswald very well. He +told me one time--I don't know if that is true or not--he said that +Oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. I believe he still +have the book. And Bringuier has his own organization here. They call +it---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. DRE? + +Mr. PENA. Cuban something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the DRE? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Cuban Students Directory? + +Mr. PENA. He said Oswald came to infiltrate in his organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that Oswald came to his store? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. That's what he told me. Before, I used to talk to him, +go there or he came to my place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Bringuier are not too good friends any more; +is that right? + +Mr. PENA. We was quite close until--when they started the blockade in +Cuba, the way he spoke about President Kennedy. And I pulled a little +bit out. I even used to give him sometimes more than $2. I don't know. +He collected to send to Miami, if he don't send it somewhere else. +That's what he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us at +this time, Mr. Pena, that I haven't asked you about that you think we +should know about? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of anything? + +Mr. PENA. I tell you, Bringuier don't do many things that he will tell +you. He don't like America. Time will tell. He is one of the guys +that--do you remember when they were saying, "Yankee, go home," in +Cuba? He was in Cuba at that time. He was calling, "Yankee, go home." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has he ever favored Castro that you know of? + +Mr. PENA. Oh, of course. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who, Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. He said not? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you did he ever favor Castro. + +Mr. PENA. I was in Cuba. I left Cuba very long time ago. I never was +involved in any kind of politics. I didn't like Batista, but I wasn't +in any organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know of any. + +Mr. PENA. What I know about people, what I hear in my place, or what I +hear other people talking, and what I hear about Bringuier was, when +Castro started with his revolution of Cuba, he was one of the Cubans in +the revolution calling, "Yankee, go home." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think that Bringuier is in favor of Castro at +this time? + +Mr. PENA. He? No, no. He hate Castro and he hate Russia, but he hates +America as much, too. He just want to go back to Cuba and be one of the +bosses. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Be a big man? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, Mr. Pena. I want to thank you very much for +coming in. + +Mr. PENA. I want you to know something: I love the United States more +than many people that are born in this country and I got a place of +business and I hear--they don't talk much now. They are very scared, +but before, when Castro was started, I learn many people, how much they +was against this country, people that was born in this country. I love +this country, believe me. Maybe you don't believe me or have a bad +report about me, but nobody make me a Communist. Believe that. Believe +it or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUPERTO PENA + +The testimony of Ruperto Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old +Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by +Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Ruperto Pena, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, +through the interpreter, as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. First, let the record show that this testimony is being +taken through an interpreter in the person of Special Agent Richard E. +Logan of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +Mr. Pena, I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission +investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have +been authorized to take your testimony pursuant to certain regulations +and orders that President Johnson has issued, including Executive Order +No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress +No. 137. + +You are entitled to have an attorney. You do not have to answer the +questions if you have any objections to them, and you are entitled to 3 +days' notice of the hearing. + +Mr. LOGAN. I have already explained to him that you are an attorney and +about the Commission and authorization. Now I will just tell him about +these rights that he has. + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter). + +Mr. LOGAN. He says as long as he can answer them, that he will. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that he will be willing to proceed without an +attorney? + +Mr. LOGAN. No; he doesn't care. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Pena? + +Mr. PENA. Mantanza--that's the province--Colón--that's the city--Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When? + +Mr. PENA. March 5, 1927. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are still a citizen of Cuba? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? + +Mr. PENA. With my brother at the--I help my brother run the bar, the +Habana Bar, 117 Decatur Street. The Habana Bar it is called. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier? + +Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are the brother of Orest Pena; is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Evaristo Rodriguez? + +Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your brother an incident in the +bar where a man ordered a lemonade? + +Mr. PENA. I didn't talk with my brother about it. I have discussed it +with the bartender. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez? + +Mr. LOGAN. Because his brother, apparently--he wasn't there when the +incident happened either. He didn't discuss it with his brother and the +bartender. Apparently, he just heard it through talk in the bar about +the thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were not there at the time this happened? + +Mr. PENA. No; I wasn't there. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture which +has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize +that man. + +Mr. PENA. I know him from the newspapers, but I have never seen him in +person. + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. LOGAN. He knows. Just can't get it out right now. He doesn't +remember his name. He knows his face because he has seen it in a lot of +photographs and pictures in the newspaper. Never saw him in person, but +he knows the photograph of the man from pictures on TV and newspapers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you know him as the man who assassinated President +Kennedy? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; I do. I don't right at this second remember his name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? + +Mr. PENA. Oswald is the man. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that +has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you have +ever seen any of the men in this picture, specifically that man who +is handing out leaflets slightly to Oswald's right, the man I point +to with my pencil, and, for the purposes of the record, it is the man +who stands behind Oswald to his right, and he is the second man from +Oswald. He wears a short-sleeved shirt with a tie. + +Mr. PENA. I don't know anybody in there. I don't recognize anybody in +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Carlos Bringuier that you had seen +Oswald anywhere? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar, the Habana Bar, at the time when +your brother got into an argument with two Mexicans or Cubans about the +bongo drums? + +Mr. PENA. It was me that had the argument with them. I had an argument +with a couple of them over there over the problem of Cuba, but I was +not there when the incident that your question specifically asked about +took place. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did have an argument with two Mexicans about +Cuba; is that right? + +Mr. PENA. The problems of Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you call the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. Bringuier did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier called the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see these men? + +Mr. PENA. The first time I saw them was in the bar, the two of them. It +was in the evening we were having this discussion over the problems of +Cuba. The second time was 2 or 3 days later--I am not positive about +that--when I saw them pass the bar in a little car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. What I did was, when I saw them passing in the +car--these two men that I mentioned, passing in a car--I went out and +took the license number and I gave this to Bringuier, Carlos Bringuier, +and I asked Bringuier to call the FBI because I wasn't able to speak +English well enough, and that's it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you, yourself, ever called the FBI or any other +Government agency about these two men before you told Bringuier to call +them? + +Mr. PENA. I didn't call anybody before I told Bringuier to call them, +the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? + +Mr. PENA. I am sure. I gave Bringuier the number and told him to call +the FBI because I couldn't speak English well enough. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember discussing this question with Mr. +Logan back in May, and Mr. Logan asked you this question at that time, +and don't you remember that you told Mr. Logan that you had called the +FBI or the Immigration and Naturalization Service? + +Mr. PENA. No; I didn't, but at that time, I just have said that I +called one because it mentions there about the telephone. I just can't +remember it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI, when you saw +these men in the car? + +Mr. PENA. The night that I had the discussion with these two men, I got +the impression that they were pro-Castro and probably Communists, so +that's why, when I saw them go by in the car a couple of days later, I +asked Bringuier to call the FBI to denounce them, to turn them in or +denounce them, or to let them know that they were about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why didn't you call the FBI when you talked to them the +first time? + +Mr. PENA. The first reason I did not call the FBI the first time was +because this discussion took place at night and that, as soon as the +discussion was terminated, these two men left, and so it just sort of +ended right there. Then, when I saw them again, I got Bringuier to try +to call them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you that he did call the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. He called the FBI right in front of me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when Bringuier called the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. Yes. I was right there when he was supposed to have called +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Bringuier call them from? + +Mr. PENA. Called them from Bringuier's store. That's the Casa Rocca. +That's right down the street from me. It's 107 Decatur. It's the Casa +Rocca. It's a store. That's where the call was made from. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you who he talked to at the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did these two men have anything to do with Oswald, as far +as you know? + +Mr. PENA. As far as I know, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen them again after you saw them in the +car? + +Mr. PENA. No; never saw them since. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been in favor of Fidel Castro in the early +times? + +Mr. PENA. I have never been friendly toward Castro. I am more or less +pro-Batista. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to where these two men +could be found now? + +Mr. PENA. No; I don't have any information. I am under the impression +that one was a Cuban and one was a Mexican because of their method +of speaking Spanish, which varies from each Spanish country, like a +Cuban speaking can recognize a Mexican by his language rather than his +appearance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the answer to the question? + +Mr. PENA. The answer to the question is that I do not have any +information as to where these two men can be found now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Bringuier the license number of the +automobile? + +Mr. PENA. Yes; I gave it to Bringuier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier give it to the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. Bringuier gave it to them, the FBI, over the telephone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure that you were present when Bringuier talked +to the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. The thing is, I was there when Bringuier made a call +supposedly to the FBI, but I can't say and won't say that I know +Bringuier was talking to the FBI. Actually, as a matter of fact, he +could have been talking to just anybody. That's what he just said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had that problem because of your difficulty +understanding the English language? + +Mr. PENA. The idea is that I was there when the call was made, but I +don't know. As far as I am concerned, Bringuier was talking to the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It says here in this report that you weren't even there. + +(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) + +Mr. LOGAN. He is telling me now about all the people that are exiles +that are in Cuba. They hollered, "Yankee, no." But that's not +pertinent. You want me to ask him again about his being present and see +if we can make him remember? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he mention this thing about Cuba? He is not one +of them? + +Mr. LOGAN. I dare say it is part of his nature. He is telling me that +we have to be careful of all of these people, which we already know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, did you tell Mr. Logan and Agent De Brueys +that you were not present when Carlos called the FBI? + +Mr. PENA. I don't know that I remember telling you that, but I say now +that I was present when that call was made. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now Mr. Bringuier said that you told him that one of the +two Mexicans had been in the bar with Oswald. Is that correct? + +Mr. PENA. I never told Bringuier that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't have told Bringuier that because you +weren't even in the bar when Oswald was there and you never saw the man +who was with Oswald? + +Mr. PENA. That's right. I wasn't in the bar when---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge that Oswald was connected in +any way with any conspiracy to assassinate the President? + +Mr. PENA. I have no information that Oswald was ever connected with any +organization or conspiracy to assassinate the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us +about this whole affair? + +Mr. PENA. I have no further information outside of what I have already +said regarding the two Mexicans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO + +The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, +in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan +and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the +assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take +your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the +Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint +resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney +present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of +the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you +think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege +you may have. I think the Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe +Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's office, called you and gave you +notice. + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you wish to have an attorney present? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility +that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mrs. ODIO. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's +which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, +because at the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week +later. I told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced +himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in December telling me +that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive +anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he +didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of one or +two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning, +but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may +help us determine who these people were. + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, would you tell us where you were born? + +Mrs. ODIO. In Havana, Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when? + +Mrs. ODIO. 1937. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Cuba? + +Mrs. ODIO. Until, well, I studied in the United States, so I mean--you +mean my whole life until--it was 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1960? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left Cuba and came to the United States, is that +correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you come to in the United States? + +Mrs. ODIO. We first came to Miami, and we stayed there just a few days +and left for Ponce, Puerto Rico, and we stayed there 2 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then from Ponce, did you come to Dallas? + +Mrs. ODIO. From Ponce, I came straight to Dallas last year, March of +last year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is +that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had gone to school in the United +States. Where? + +Mrs. ODIO. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in Philadelphia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to school there? + +Mrs. ODIO. Three years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what, high school? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. From 1951 to 1954. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the +United States prior to the time that you came to Dallas in March of +1963? The only time in the United States over any extended period of +time? + +Mrs. ODIO. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months--9 +months in New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you lived in the United States for 9 months in +1956? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had been in Philadelphia for 3 years from 1954 on, is +that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And for the period in New Orleans and when you came to +the United States finally? + +Mrs. ODIO. In 1960, December 25, 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to Puerto +Rico and lived in Puerto Rico for 2 years, and you came to Dallas in +1963 and you have been here ever since? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational +background is, Mrs. Odio? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had grammar school in Cuba. I started high school in +Cuba and then I was sent to the Sacred Heart and I applied for college, +and went back and studied law in the University of Villanova. I did +not finish because my career was interrupted because of Castro, and I +didn't finish law. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much training did you have in law? + +Mrs. ODIO. I had almost 3 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of law study in Cuba? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were +interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hosty and Bardwell +D. Odum. Do you remember that? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your +place of work, is that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what they asked you and +what you told them? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall +the conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as +best you can recall it? + +Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination +of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known +Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee +Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And +they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not +know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities +in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. +I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father +and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto +recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to +JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him +a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about +what happened in my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico? + +Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father +and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba. + +So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told +them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, +exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was +the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at +the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very +excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I +said, "Yes; I remember." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when +Oswald came to your house. + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to +my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going +to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the +time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other +things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would +help as much as I could. + +Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans +knew that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of +sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because of what now? + +Mrs. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray +has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is +Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to +Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were +all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the +time was staying with some American friends, had come over that weekend +to babysit for me. + +It either was a Thursday or a Friday. It must have been either one of +those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to +go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit. + +Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat +on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there +are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other +two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them?" So I put a housecoat on and +stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, +because I have had occasions where Cubans have introduced themselves as +having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know. + +So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, +"I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am +Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the +oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We +are members of JURE." + +This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem +familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name +was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, +everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when +everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names. + +And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been +trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able +to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I +am exact on; I remember perfectly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. +Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did +most of the talking? Was it the American? + +Mrs. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans? + +Mrs. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against +the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked +very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one +was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had +glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and +I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one +called Leopoldo. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking? + +Mrs. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and +the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in +Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in +Spanish. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door +completely opened? + +Mrs. ODIO. I had a chain. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told +me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them +come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very +good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think +my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from +anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw +my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost +incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really +would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, +after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American. + +He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am +sorry to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We +wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated +it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. +She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an +American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me +see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at +the time I was at the door things about him. + +I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called +Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this +American. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is +true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name +very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't remember it? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This +I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which +is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just +casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he +knows any of them." But I forgot about them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men? + +Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time? + +Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just +had to know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, +she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I +learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so +obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald +the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind +of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like +if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind +of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other +ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved +shirt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to +here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie? + +Mrs. ODIO. No tie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt? + +Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but +it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was +very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on +television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you +know, as the man that had been in the apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said "Yes," and +she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it +couldn't be so, could it?" + +That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. +We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock. + +This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written +in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the +revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms +for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to +translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of +them to different industries to see if we can get some results. + +This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of +the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, +"Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can +raise some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and +I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?" + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE +representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name? + +Mrs. ODIO. His name is Antonio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez +Alvareda? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? + +Mrs. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little +after that, after December, I was more in contact with him, and I +will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, +working hard. + +And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I +said, "Do you know Eugenio?" This is the war name for ----. That is his +war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't +mention his real name. He didn't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this? + +Mrs. ODIO. I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if +they had been sent by Alentado, because I explained to them that he had +already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were +you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by +Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?" + +And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been +trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and +this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This +was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know +how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I +said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to +be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never +been to Cuba." + +And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes." + +This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him +and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, +"I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit +me." + +And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was +the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the +window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving? + +Mrs. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Leopoldo? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They +kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, +it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two +or three times they said the same thing. + +They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow +night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or +three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had +the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going? + +Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from +work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on +Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get +fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that +I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the +conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I +said, "I didn't think anything." + +And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground +in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or +less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He +told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy +should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans +should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the +freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the +conversation. + +And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he +(Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in +Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they +would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he +mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never +mentioned the name Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone? + +Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the +American or Leon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before? + +Mrs. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned +their names again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon? + +Mrs. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or +an American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in +helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or +less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what +else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he +would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that +is more or less what he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo +called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back? + +Mrs. ODIO. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with +me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my +psychiatrist. + +I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, +and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the +week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men +had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get +in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were +simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose. + +My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can +blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give +them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect +anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but +establish opinions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or +before the assassination? + +Mrs. ODIO. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I +did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; +except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned +the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And +later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he +writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved +with any of them." + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you +received from your father in which he told you that these people were +not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you +wrote to him? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his +letter, did he? + +Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only +thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an +American, and I gave the names of the Cubans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, +we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1. + +Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone +there in Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your +door to anybody that calls themselves my friends." + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you +put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the +exhibit. + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes, okay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain +parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you +read that translation to us? + +Mrs. ODIO. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my +friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me +lately, not even in Dallas. So do not establish any friendships until +you give me their full names again." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he say their "full names" in there? + +Mrs. ODIO. Their full names again, which means I had given their war +names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you must have given the name Leopold? + +Mrs. ODIO. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and +you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says. We are 10 +brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both +of them. + +I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage. We have been, were a +very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after +I divorced. He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that +somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody +could come by demanding money or something like that. You can probably +have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that? + +Mrs. ODIO. The capital of Isle of Pines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is a prisoner there? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and +forth? + +Mrs. ODIO. One letter a month, on one side. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men? + +Mrs. ODIO. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot +of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time +reading it, like he does. You can see how perfectly he writes a letter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that +these men came in late September. You previously stated that you +couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it +as being in late September. Would you tell me the procedure that you +went through to establish that date in your mind? + +Mrs. ODIO. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American +friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the +Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me +during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or +Friday, depending on when I called her. + +I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted her to start +packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have +been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the +living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move +by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did move? + +Mrs. ODIO. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived +before you moved to Oak Cliff? + +Mrs. ODIO. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number--1024 +Magellan Circle. It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the +number; I think it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments +at the time these men came to your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of +October and moved to Oak Cliff? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your +apartment before the first of October? + +Mrs. ODIO. Before the first of October. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been sometime toward the end of September, +because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from +the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff? + +Mrs. ODIO. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping +me. She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. +It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie? + +Mrs. ODIO. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late +September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she +had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood +Apartments? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and +you lose it if you move before 6 months. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because +of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in +Puerto Rico, and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th. + +That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to +establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from +Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this +movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to +buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with +one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell +him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution. + +I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he +mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could +be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and +mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called +Eugenio long distance from Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back +from Puerto Rico? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I +left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny +Martin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is +that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, +and I called two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he +just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, +not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda. + +So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram +Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the +same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin +here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip +also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was +planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to +be interviewed by some high official. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he was going to come by Dallas first? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, to get my children, +which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas. And this is +when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood +Apartments. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico +with your children? + +Mrs. ODIO. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, +because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I +lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this +Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before +you went to Puerto Rico? + +Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that +to meet you? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you met with Eugenio here in Dallas? + +Mrs. ODIO. Once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was in June of 1963? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men +came to your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend +of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had +come to the apartment with Leon? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Father McKann? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he did call me on the telephone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On April 30, 1964? + +Mrs. ODIO. The date, I don't recall. Probably. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was approximately the end of April or early May of +1964 when he called you from New Orleans? + +Mrs. ODIO. From New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him +at that time? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him? + +Mrs. ODIO. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told +him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that +could be important to you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody +in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work +that day, isn't that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing +in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane. I don't know if it +belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned +about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you +tell him the names of the men who were there? + +Mrs. ODIO. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told him one was Leopoldo? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not tell him that you could identify the +other man as Eugenio? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him that? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with +Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which +it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you +had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now +that that is not so? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has +the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was +not Eugenio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to +you in June? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think I discussed it with him, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During that telephone conversation? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think I discussed it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never +used in your presence by any of these men? + +Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when +they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is also what you told Agent Hosty when he +interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his +report? + +Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates +that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the +following day, that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was +not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was +considered to be loco? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have +analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had +something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I +could get men into Cuba. That is what he thought, which is not true. + +When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would +mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind +of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like +killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And +he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of +loco." + +When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President +Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation--he was trying to play it +safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't +like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was +cleverly done. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he actually played both sides of the fence? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right, both sides of the fence. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed +Forces? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mrs. ODIO. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that Leon could help in the underground +activities in which you were presumably engaged? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since +it happened? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, I have not even contacted him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Annie in Dallas now? + +Mrs. ODIO. She is coming now the end of July. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She is not here now? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, she is coming from Florida. She is coming to live with +me. She spent 6 months with my brother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what her address is in Florida? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. She is in--wait 1 second--Southwest 82d Place, Miami, +Fla. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old were these two men that were with Leon? + +Mrs. ODIO. One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, +I can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like +as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one +of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one was that? + +Mrs. ODIO. But the other one was young. That was the tall one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was not Leopoldo? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Alentado was younger? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old was he, would you say? + +Mrs. ODIO. About 34, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an +opinion about that when you saw him at the time? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought +how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I +would say he was a young man; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw +him that day in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I +could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What age would you establish you thought about it? + +Mrs. ODIO. Oh, 34 or 35. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since +the assassination and observed Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. I read some of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read how old he was? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't even know what age he is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he? + +Mrs. ODIO. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you? + +Mrs. ODIO. I am 5 feet 6 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was about 5 feet 10? + +Mrs. ODIO. Probably. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man? + +Mrs. ODIO. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on +him, like it was borrowed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Like it was borrowed from somebody else? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of +hung loose. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't fit well? + +Mrs. ODIO. It didn't fit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement +here in Dallas? + +Mrs. ODIO. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any representatives of the DRE? + +Mrs. ODIO. I just knew one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that? + +Mrs. ODIO. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in +New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the +incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in +the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight +with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working +pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, you mean? + +Mrs. ODIO. Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but +I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think it was a long time ago in Cuba, or I was introduced +to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met him here in the United States? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between +Bringuier and Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed +the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and +they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a +judge. This was true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read about that in the newspapers? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information +we heard from New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much of your family are living in New Orleans? + +Mrs. ODIO. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them told you about this? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think it was my uncle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at that time? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In New Orleans? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your uncle's name? + +Mrs. ODIO. Agustin Guitar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was this that you discussed this with him? + +Mrs. ODIO. February. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In February of 1964? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an +operation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de +Pinillos? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Emanuel Salvat? + +Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I +don't know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, +Salvat? + +Mrs. ODIO. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to +some organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which one? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the DRE? + +Mrs. ODIO. I can't say for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera? + +Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about her, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your +apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any +contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told +them to come to your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. They were coming from New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cubans in +Dallas. Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic +Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will +give you information enough. They will tell you where they live and +what their phone number is and how to contact them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came +by your address? + +Mrs. ODIO. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my +family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him +and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident +when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the +telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already +told me about? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the +important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving +for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to +meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has +been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am +trying real hard to remember everything I can. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think we should know +about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this +whole affair? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is +real facts of the thing, that really happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon +Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. The only time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him +other times? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any +information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much +involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea +who called the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About what? + +Mrs. ODIO. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? + +Mrs. ODIO. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it +myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody +was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was +important. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think called the FBI? + +Mrs. ODIO. Mrs. Connell, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place +of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was +conducted? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two +men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. +You know how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some +officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to +see me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how +they came to see you? + +Mrs. ODIO. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to mention +anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were +going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone +number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You gave that to the FBI? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that because you asked these men if they had been +sent by Alentado and they said no? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is +that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know her? + +Mrs. ODIO. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me +in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because +I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and +they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister +was would improve me, which it did, of course. + +And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban +psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. +Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped +the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my +sister. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? + +Mrs. ODIO. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to +come here to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, +extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a +psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruch. I was here 4 months before I went +to get my children. We were close, like I said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you think she called the FBI about this? + +Mrs. ODIO. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her +after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and +told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not +know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I +was the only person--she was the only person I told. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he +will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, +"I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a +psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was +him that called the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at +some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these +groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and +captivated the people to whom he had spoken? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure you never told her that? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings? + +Mrs. ODIO. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she +probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino +spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not +saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get +all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle +of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, +that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas, and she went to that meeting. +I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get +upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A different one? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? + +Mrs. ODIO. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a +Prisoner in Castro Cuba," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. +He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in +Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About this? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the +FBI was? + +Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, +that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That +was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He +always told me the truth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have +hallucinations and you had probably not made this up? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Other people make it up, but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question +with some representatives of the President's Commission? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what that conversation was about? + +Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half +about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me +the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any +more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still seeing Dr. Einspruch? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I am through with therapy. He left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He is no longer in Dallas? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald in +more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before +except the day he came to the door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen him since? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after +you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I +would pass out for hours, and this was part of my emotional problems. +I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I +cannot deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. +I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the +President had been shot? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you +passed out? + +Mrs. ODIO. Can I say something off the record? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +(Witness talks off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, let's go back on the record. You indicated +that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment +had something to do with the assassination? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought of that before you had the fainting +spell? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My +psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive +things very well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of thinking? + +Mrs. ODIO. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and +psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, +for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the +two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the +Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. +I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with +it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. It was only the connection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had made the connection in your mind between these +three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how +the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the +Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name +prior to the time of your passing out? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact +time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of +a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think +I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did +not know any name until that night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you pass out? + +Mrs. ODIO. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before 1 o'clock, +because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the +President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 +minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out +back in the warehouse. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just after you left the office? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right +after? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did these men indicate that they had all come from New +Orleans together? + +Mrs. ODIO. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had +been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but +they had been in New Orleans, or had just come from New Orleans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their +pictures, do you think? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think I could recognize one of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think they definitely look like Cubans? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like +Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any +Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to +greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man +who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in +connection with the assassination? + +Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture? + +Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then? + +Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I +mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and +she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she +said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no +doubts then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this man's voice? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am not sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier +Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that +photograph? + +Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With the X? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I specifically call your attention to the man standing to +Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and +has in his hand some leaflets. + +Mrs. ODIO. Does he have some glasses on? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The man that I just described? + +Mrs. ODIO. Does he have any glasses? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see the picture. + +Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build that that man has in the back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has the same build? + +Mrs. ODIO. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to this man here? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some +way? + +Mrs. ODIO. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick +hair. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are describing Leopoldo? + +Mrs. ODIO. He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Like sort of a bald spot in his front? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have +indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and +to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look +something like one of the men that was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. That height and that tall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, +so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a +man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have +Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to +about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we +have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand. + +Mrs. ODIO. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men +I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same +physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the +back looks something like this man I am telling you about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in +the picture other than Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; that's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo +Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with +the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men +that was with Oswald in the apartment. + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that +picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are referring---- + +Mrs. ODIO. I am referring to this man now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose +back is toward the camera? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man immediately behind Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; he was taller than that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that +the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately +behind Oswald in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man +who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in +Bringuier Exhibit No. 1? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly +the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives him a +slimmer look. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose +back is to the camera with a white shirt? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he came with a white shirt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this +man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B +is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit +No. 1, but it appears that that is not so? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; this man is this man in the picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit +No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B? + +Mrs. ODIO. Exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizza's Exhibit No. +453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's +Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that +might look like the man who was in the apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, +this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is +the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not +look like the man who was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall +mark 3 in both pictures; is that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't +one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one +that has his hand on his face. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in Pizzo's +Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar? + +Mrs. ODIO. Somewhat familiar; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you +recognize anybody in that picture? + +Mrs. ODIO. Who is this man? + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on +Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you? + +Mrs. ODIO. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the +color of that short man. He did not look real white. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in +Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental? + +Mrs. ODIO. Is an oriental? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know. Does it look like it to you? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, +the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark +2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in +Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They +all seem to be the same man, don't they? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in +this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did? + +Mrs. ODIO. Didn't wear them all the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in +Exhibit No. 453-A? + +Mrs. ODIO. [Pointing.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as +being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the +picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks +in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was +kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he +looked that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over +his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that +correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line +over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B was the man who was in your +apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner +Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize that man. + +Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? + +Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that +he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that +day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that +looks like the man who was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same +forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me +is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved +thing that got me that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man +in that picture appear to be somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one +you saw in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was +around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way +he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one +that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't +look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in +this picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because +when somebody reads the record--you say that he---- + +Mrs. ODIO. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more +smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have +been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have +been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that +was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee +Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a +sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you +have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who +was in your apartment. + +I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and +there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI +office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But +I would like to have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, +and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening +to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the +Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as +the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the +Secret Service and find out when he can set up the viewing of this +film, and I will tell you what time to come back. + +Mrs. ODIO. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back +any special time? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels. + +Mrs. ODIO. Before I leave? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can +set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in +late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as +to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of +your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of +September; is that correct? Or can you remember? Is there any way you +can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak +Cliff? + +Mrs. ODIO. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on +a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous +weekend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the +last day of September was Monday. + +Mrs. ODIO. That is probably the day I moved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say that you also started working at a new job +that same day? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you had been working on the day that you did move? + +Mrs. ODIO. I started working initially the 15th of September, because +it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of +September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let me see what +day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started +working at National Chemsearch. + +(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation +entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. +Odum was the man that interviewed you. + +Mrs. ODIO. I remember. He looked very familiar. + +Mr. ODUM. What is the name? + +Mrs. ODIO. Odio. + +Mr. ODUM. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment. + +(Agent Odum left the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the +30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th +of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that? + +Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it +could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the +immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified, according to my recollection, +that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that +correct? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you work on Saturday? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; but he could have called me Saturday. But they would +have come Thursday or Friday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thursday or Friday? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had been at work on the day they came? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day +that Leopoldo called you? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't recall that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't recall that? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't +remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual +that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked +Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man. + +Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to +your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and +slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them +back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one +was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican +with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest? + +Mr. LIEBELER. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the +shorter one was rather husky? + +Mrs. ODIO. He was not as big as this man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back +spot on his head? + +Mrs. ODIO. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, +and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I +didn't notice that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as +Leopoldo? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess? + +Mrs. ODIO. He was thin--about 165 pounds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How tall was he, about? + +Mrs. ODIO. He was about 3-1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I +was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he +was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on +at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? +Was he taller or shorter than Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess? + +Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say? + +Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but +he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion. + +Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say? + +Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like--it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like +he had been in the sun for a long time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the +film to you tonight. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO RESUMED + +The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 6:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, +at the office of the Secret Service, 505 North Ervay Street, Dallas, +Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the +U.S. Secret Service were present. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Mrs. Sylvia Odio, +which is now being continued in the office of the Secret Service. We +have made arrangements in the presence of Agent Forrest Sorrels and +Agent Howlett, to show some movie films of some street scenes in the +city of New Orleans, and also a television appearance that Lee Harvey +Oswald made over station WDSU in New Orleans in August of 1963. I want +to ask Mrs. Odio to watch the film, and if you recognize anybody in the +film at any time say so as you see him and point the individual out and +we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at that time. +Please go ahead, John. + +Mrs. ODIO [viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I +have seen him, the tall thin one. I would like to see the beginning +where the man started coming in. + +(Film was rerun.) + +Mrs. ODIO. You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't +have a mustache, though. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That third man there? + +Mrs. ODIO. I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the +right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That one right over there? + +Mrs. ODIO. Right; he has the same build. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, +Sylvia. Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He +looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the +same mustache here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the television appearance? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about in the pictures that you saw in the police +station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the +police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in +his voice? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. I don't know if it was because in the television it +changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is +hard to remember a voice after such a long time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or +less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you +had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late +in September was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. I have to be careful about that, because I have the same +feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers +for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too +much. I wish I could isolate the incident without remembering the other +pictures. I have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not +resemble him. It was not the Oswald that was standing in front of my +door. He was kind of tired looking. He had a little smile, but he was +sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I would say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking +at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same +man as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run the picture once more, John? + +Mrs. ODIO. What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in +the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this +picture. But the men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like +Cubans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have here two pictures that have been made from +films of this movie. + +Mrs. ODIO. In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man +marked with the number 2? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same man you have been talking about as +looking similar? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and +I was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, +who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could +have been the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald? + +Mrs. ODIO. I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment +does not have any mustache. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But otherwise, you think that he looks similar? + +Mrs. ODIO. They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can +say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled +back on one side. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run through it again, please? + +(Film was rerun.) + +Mrs. ODIO. The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was +not so cut that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to the individual that was walking out +of the police station? + +Mrs. ODIO. With his back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He had a mustache, and he had glasses on? + +Mrs. ODIO. That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, +and he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald--Leon is fatter in this +picture than what I actually saw him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 +in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the +police station? + +Mrs. ODIO. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is a different man? + +Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind +of thin-looking individual, is darker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is the man that was walking out of the police station? + +Mrs. ODIO. You want me to point it out? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the +record there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty +clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a +different man than is in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. + +Mrs. ODIO. He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at +film]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the +door? + +Mrs. ODIO. That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with +mustache leaving police station with Carlos Bringuier and others +depicted on film]. + +Mrs. ODIO. There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't +resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that that man we have just seen in the picture +resembles one of the men that was in your apartment? + +Mrs. ODIO. From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on +the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were +gone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it is clearly not the same individual? + +Mrs. ODIO. No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something, +to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was +rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as +indicated above.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE + +The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the +Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of +testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any +other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of +explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the +point. + +In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked +you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards +the relations between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable +testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald +wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned +about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations +between Lee and Marina at that time. + +As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his +roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to +talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee. +As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was +his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the +alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on +Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's my impression. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on +Monday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working +during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday +on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on +which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember +how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. On that particular Monday--only once, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Only one time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday, +what the conversation was about? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that +she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the +conversation? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking +to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as +I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different +name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is +not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she +meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was +not right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt +between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the +first time I felt 22 fires?" + +Mrs. PAINE. "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two +fires? This is a common expression in Russian; it's like between the +Devil and the deep blue sea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Between two fires, you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of +volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just +incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no--this is not it. This should be, +"This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say, +is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea." + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your +previous testimony. + +Mrs. PAINE. It occurs twice there, I see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument +was about--what the situation was? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an +alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the +feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he +should or could do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why +he was using the alias? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not tell me anything about why. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he +was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that +he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier +not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian +wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt +that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to +Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer +guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job +tenure unsure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask +you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's +Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right; so that my impression is supported to that +extent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she did? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she had already discussed it and she judged that +they would not be talking about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically +mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the +first week, I would say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for +using this alias? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation +she had with Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during +the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this? + +Mrs. PAINE. We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my +recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I +told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her +comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with +Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did +briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his +arrival. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get to that, what was your impression of the +relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior +to the evening of Thursday, November 21? + +Mrs. PAINE. They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, +and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling +of anger--I don't know about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a +feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write +me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that +things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward +circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee +when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I +would say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask +you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous +testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21, +"Was there a coolness between them?" + + Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked + with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was + quite friendly on the lawn as we---- + +Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between +Lee and Marina." + + Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they + seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should + interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the + house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President + is coming to town." + +You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn +and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's +response to all this, the best you can recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. You recall that he was there when I arrived from the +grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as +he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment +that he hadn't called and asked if he could come. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand +from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were +of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the +argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that +he had come home specifically to make up the argument? + +Mrs. PAINE. That it was at least conciliatory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted +to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the +ordinary? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he +might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the +house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made +no apology, just from my judgment of the man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At least, you didn't hear him make any apology? + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he might have asked her to do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed +to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her +his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have +their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left +me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be +making a gesture toward the reestablishing of their family life when +at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that +would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no indication to +her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I +have since heard this by rumor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you +momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with +you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about +just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you +also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the +evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was +that night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation between you and Marina to +the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until +Christmas time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, absolutely not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no indication that his pattern of coming on +weekends was to change in any manner? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at +the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment +again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the +year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina +gave. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with +the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, +although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your +presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of +volume 1 of the hearings. + + Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on + Thursday? + +This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21. + + Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come + the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me. + + Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? + + Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him + and he was very upset. + + Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him? + + Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was + upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent + quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the + children on the street. + + Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry + with him? + + Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him. + + Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset? + + Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer + him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, + but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be + angry at him because this upsets him. + + On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. + He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the + reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not + living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment + in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with + Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He + repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And + he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and + I didn't need him. + + Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? + + Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth + until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet + together and this was better, because while he was living alone + and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told + him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it + became too difficult to wash by hand. + + Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? + + Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine. + + Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? + + Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, that it would be better if he bought + something for himself, that I would manage. + +Mrs. PAINE. I want to point out that she referred to his playing with +the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in +Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors +or on the street. + +When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes. +I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior +to then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you came home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Prior to the time I arrived--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two +or three sentences more. + + Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset when you + suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to + live in? + + Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and + watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. + It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep + at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really + asleep, but I didn't talk to him. + +I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a +considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would +it suggest that to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would suggest that to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At least that their relations would not be normal. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I +thought their relations were fairly normal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between +them? + +Mrs. PAINE. They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, +or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just +reflected a tension between them that showed in this way. + +Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not +uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other +people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did +that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his +efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of +course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have +just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness +between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such +coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small +spat." + +How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that +evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that +Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were +making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what +happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent +with what you remember having happened there that night? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I appreciate that. + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw +barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and +as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night +as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much +conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I +would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you specifically discussed that with Marina that +evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you both agreed that that was the reason he came +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real +warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and +I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you also thought from observing Marina that she was +glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was +left with my assumption unchallenged. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the events that are described by +Marina's testimony that I have just read--could perfectly well have +happened. + +Mrs. PAINE. It could perfectly well have happened--indeed--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did you think about your +previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make +up the argument that he had with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's what I thought he must have come for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing this testimony, as it occurred between +Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything +to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day? + +Mrs. PAINE. What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no +idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I +say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had +asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I +would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the +next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about +shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a washing machine in your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina use it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said. +I was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my +being--my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a +good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not +want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on +Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if +my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend +when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting +worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified +to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he +at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her +part in terms of his feelings to say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that in front of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you +know a lot more vocabulary than I did." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always +entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others. +Would you think that would be a fair statement? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the presence of others--I mean yourself. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the incident you have just related, of course, is an +example. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say that it is an example and I am trying to +think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real +generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others," +is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they +first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt +he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were +just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was +not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that +noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to +understand his hope to please her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in +point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each +other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying +to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of +sincere relationship between themselves? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never +did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears +in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that +she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me +that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but +nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My characterization assumed a continuance of the +relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, +of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were +together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have +never seen them together, of course. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might +find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds' +situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have +had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between +them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something +about the ketchup. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front +of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting +worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what +happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or +Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a +lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just +judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did +see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" +to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. +I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not +proceeding toward a mature relationship though---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual +relations between herself and Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you testified about that previously? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you care to tell us? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that +she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going +to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks +after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It +must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the +counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual +relationship? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let +me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been +considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think +what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or +not, and whether she planned to try to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in +front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory +man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain +satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, +much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if +she told you some of those things. + +Mrs. PAINE. Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked +to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which +sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to +help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes +affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was +interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have +known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put +it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly +was not put that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with +her sexual relations with Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that +occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November? + +Mrs. PAINE. She mentioned that she had once left him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any of the details of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she +went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually +did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, +which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that +she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that +was said about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that's how I met her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You know De Mohrenschildt yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the +Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend +between the hosts of the evening party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Glover? + +Mrs. PAINE. And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the +De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean that that might have been to whom she went? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I just want to know if she ever discussed De +Mohrenschildt with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not +sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. +She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be +his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got +that straight as to who was married. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She never discussed her own feelings about De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any +way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself +and her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would +like to ask you one more. + +You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a +supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from +Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, +and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such +call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect +that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of +them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and +they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified +about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone +conversation between you and anyone. + +Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael +between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November +23, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't +know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more +likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the +assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew +it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I +did know--from watching TV. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only telephone conversation between those +two numbers on those 2 days that you know of? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that +Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the +President? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never meant to suggest anything or never said +anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else? + +Mrs. PAINE. No--never--that has absolutely not occurred to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is +so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged +attack on General Walker? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have +we discussed it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--at any time. + +Mrs. PAINE. I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had +knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22, +1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications +were such that he had no such information. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not +indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, +and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had +been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate +then that he had had any prior knowledge of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several +days--more than a week after the assassination that something was +printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that +until he found out about it in the newspaper? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to +your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did +they not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company +with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in +December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what was among these things that Robert +Oswald and Mr. Martin took? + +Mrs. PAINE. They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things +that I did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also +included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to +Robert Oswald's to find it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like +that, copies of The Militant or The Worker? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not see--most of what was done was what was put in. I +busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the +Oswald's property. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and +The Militant at your address? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened +The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of +second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come +that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the +first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was, +do you? + +Mrs. PAINE. It must have been the current one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper, +I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when it had come? + +Mrs. PAINE. During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2 +weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did come up on Thursday night? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the +mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the +newspaper, at your address, wasn't he? + +Mrs. PAINE. I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to +look at when he arrived on Friday night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come +during the period from his last visit to Thursday? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right; he had not been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't look at those on Thursday? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember +what they were? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker +and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not +certain. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one copy of The Militant? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember when it had come? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many copies of The Worker? + +Mrs. PAINE. One. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL RALPH PAINE + +The testimony of Michael Ralph Paine was taken at 12:05 p.m., on July +23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath, +please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? + +Mr. PAINE. Michael Ralph Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are familiar with the Commission's procedure and you +have testified before the Commission as I have heretofore indicated, +isn't that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. I have testified before--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously that when you first met Lee +Oswald in April 1963, that you discussed to some extent Gen. Edwin A. +Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think we did discuss him in passing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had +been involved in the attempt on General Walker's life? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember at all--nothing whatsoever. I think the +only thing he did--the only thing that I can remember now, was that he +seemed to have a smile in regard to that person. It was inscrutable--I +didn't know what he was smiling about--I just thought perhaps it +was--the guy assumed it was rapport for a person who was an extreme +proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker was? + +Mr. PAINE. General Walker was--yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you first met Oswald, as I recall, on April 2, +I believe it was, of 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. You have been keeping up with this--I haven't been thinking +about Oswald for a year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection as to the date at this +point? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you did meet Oswald sometime in April, +for the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that +Walker had been attacked? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't recall now; and as I remember--back in the fall--I +wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. It isn't just a lapse +of memory now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with Oswald the fact that +someone had shot at General Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. No--I don't. That would have led me to think it was prior to +his being shot at. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to this specific date. Now, my question +means to comprehend any time--do you remember discussing at any time +with Oswald the fact that General Walker had been attacked? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. I didn't see him--I saw him that one evening, +you see, and then I didn't see him for a space of some time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him after that one time in April until +after he had returned from New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. I guess that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that would have been in October 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On June 11, 1964, Marina Oswald testified before the +Commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated +on page 7368 of the Commission's transcript: + + Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes + ago, that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's + attitude about the United States than you do. Why did you say + that? + + Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion + was politics and whoever he was with, he talked to them + politics and Mr. Paine was with him a fair amount and I am not + sure they talked about politics. + +Apparently it should have been "I am quite sure they talked about +politics." But, at any rate, the transcript does read, "I am not sure +they talked about politics." + + They went to meetings of some kind together. I don't know what + kind of meetings. + + Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were? + + Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting, + my husband said to me something about Walker being at this + meeting. + +Do you remember going at any meeting with Lee Oswald at which Mr. +Walker was present? + +Mr. PAINE. No--the only meeting I went to was the ACLU meeting, that I +recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall going to any meeting yourself in October +1963, with or without Oswald, at which General Walker was present? + +Mr. PAINE. General Walker was present at the--Oswald mentioned the +U.N.-U.S. Day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or +two or two nights before the ACLU meeting. He had been to that by +himself. I had gone that same evening to a John Birch meeting. We were +not together, but they were two things that occurred simultaneously, +and that's where Lee, by his report at the ACLU meeting said he was and +Walker was there. Maybe that's what Marina had in mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your +ever being at a meeting when he was there? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen General Walker that I can recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. Unless he was--in a year previous to that I had been to the +Indignation Committee meeting--no--that is the answer to your previous +question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever +remember seeing General Walker present? + +Mr. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently +learned that he was present, although you didn't see him? + +Mr. PAINE. That's right--I can't remember about the previous year, but +I don't think that has relevancy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, since the time you met Oswald--you were at no +meetings at which General Walker was present, to your knowledge? + +Mr. PAINE. That's true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina Oswald goes on to testify and I will recapitulate +part of it, "After they came back from some meeting, my husband said +to me something about Walker being at this meeting and he said, 'Paine +knows that I shot him.'" + +Do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, +is and I have already asked you that and you testified you did not know +Oswald shot Walker prior to the assassination of President Kennedy; is +that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any reason to believe that Oswald might +have thought that you knew that he, Oswald, had shot at General Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. I can't see how he would have thought I knew that. I just +don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and I didn't +catch his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume +that he wasn't lying and that is the only way I can explain it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you think that this testimony that Marina has +given is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on Oswald's +part or on Marina's part? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever? + +Mr. PAINE. I am perfectly certain that I didn't know he shot at Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina herself goes on to say: + + I don't know whether this was the truth or not, I don't know + whether it was true or not, but this is what they told me. + +And I presume she means that's what Lee had told her. + +Mr. PAINE. Now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that +"they"--this is testimony in June, you said, and that "they" could +possibly be Martin and Thorne. I don't know much about Martin and +Thorne either, but I had the impression that they were telling her +stories. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, this is what the translator said Marina +had said. Marina is going to be here tomorrow and I will ask her about +this then and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want +to bring out now at this time is that your testimony is quite clear +that you did not know before the assassination that Oswald had shot at +General Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You testified before that Oswald had shown you one of +those newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they +wanted you to do by doing some reading between the lines; is that +correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that he was specifically referring +to a copy of The Worker that he showed you at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. It was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald reading The Militant? + +Mr. PAINE. I do not now remember which are the things that I have come +to realize later and which I knew at the time. I was not particularly +aware of The Militant, as I recall. I really have to remember what my +feelings were back in the fall when I was questioned on the matter and +that, as I recall, the name and quality or the name and nature of The +Militant wasn't really very familiar to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about the +U.S. policies toward Cuba? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't think we did discuss that except in the +very brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's +approval--apparent approval of Castro and citing that he was a +Communist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I remember you testified about that before--that it was +on the way back home after an ACLU meeting. + +Mr. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him, or thought if that was what he had +to go on to identify anyone as a Communist, that he apparently was +reaching quite far? + +Mr. PAINE. I thought so, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that in the fall of 1963 there was a +climate of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente +between the United States and the Soviet Union that apparently led +people in some quarters to believe that the Soviet Union would withdraw +its support from the Castro regime or at least modify its attitude? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about that? + +Mr. PAINE. No, we did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of +such a thing? + +Mr. PAINE. We very seldom spoke about it. Most of our discussions +were to the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area +of disagreement it didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so +we didn't talk about Soviet-American relations as I recall it in that +regard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual +as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it +and tell me if you recognize the individual? + +Mr. PAINE. I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, +but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person, but +he could work at Bell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In our discussions in Washington, we had some +conversations about what you thought Oswald's possible motive might +have been for the assassination--I don't think you have really ever set +them forth for us on the record, and if you care to give us your views +on that, I would appreciate having them. + +Mr. PAINE. I was more eager to speak about it then--I was thinking +about it then. Since that time I haven't thought about it at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time +you were in Washington? + +Mr. PAINE. I think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are +now. I thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his +head when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a +duck blind there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even +though he couldn't predict from that action what course history would +take, that in my opinion would not have deterred him from doing it. I +thought that he was of the mind that something small or evolutionary +changes were never going to be of any effect. It had to be, though he +never revealed to me what kind of actions or policies he would have +advocated or did advocate or did want to see--I had frequently had the +impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic nature, where +kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those actions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society +ought to be structured? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes--he did discuss them but not in a way---did he ever +describe anything that could be real. It was more a way that society +should not be structured, that he talked about. Now, I shouldn't really +say that--it was a negative description of how society should not be, +and I never did get a description of what he would like or what one of +a more positive nature would be like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he +had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't know about the suddenness but he assumed that +the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure +and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there +would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going +to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not +clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't +particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I never did get it clear in my +mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you he had written about this subject? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never read any of the things he wrote? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know he had written about anything? + +Mr. PAINE. No; if I had thought he had written about something, I would +certainly have been eager to have read it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opinion that this man was +psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and +neurosis or psychosis--you pick it. + +Mr. PAINE. No; truthfully, I should say that did not appear to be a +good description. It seemed simpler and more to the point to say he +was extremely bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in +people. There was mostly evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the +description--that was his opinion or would be his description of most +people. That's my description, and the best description I can give +of him--to call him other psychological names--names of paranoia or +paranoid or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What made you pick that particular name? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, that kind of suspicion of people--expecting them to be +consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed +people--workers--is perhaps a trait of paranoia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he exhibited this trait? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. He +didn't generally take it--I would say he was paranoid if he always +took it personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put +himself in the class of people who were oppressed, so that's the +distinction why I wouldn't call him sick or wouldn't have then called +him sick--before the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in +institutional terms? + +Mr. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And in terms of the social structure and the impact the +world had on classes and groups of people? + +Mr. PAINE. He was in the exploited class. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there was no doubt about that--I mean, as far as his +own mind was concerned--that's what he thought? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes +that were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it +clear that he did regard himself as being included in that class of +people. + +Mr. PAINE. That's correct. Now, I think he was a little--I can't +remember now where I got the impression that he was allergic to the +FBI, which is another case of him mentioning being sensitive to a +person--a sense of persecution, but the only thing that I do remember +that he did mention that surprised me a little bit was his sense of +personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving company. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And when you say you cannot remember where you got the +idea that he was allergic to the FBI, you mean you don't remember +whether you were aware of that before the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of it before the assassination or can't +you remember? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I learned that from Ruth's statement of things that +he had said and I don't remember whether that was before or after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For instance, if you were told that he in fact did have +quite an allergy to the FBI, whether you were aware of it or not at +that time, I suppose that that would provide an example of one or +two things--either an accurate description of what was going on or a +slightly exaggerated or greatly exaggerated notion of what was going on +and to that extent a manifestation of this feeling of persecution, as +he put it. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some +grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and +the fact that he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things +that would have to have the legitimate fear of the surveillance by +the FBI because he would want to be attempting to do something that +wasn't legal or proper. In other words, that would agitate him with +grounds--for other reasons than paranoia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One of the witnesses who knew him in the Marine Corps +testified that he thought that Oswald had a persecution complex which +he strove to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, he was certainly--I wanted to give him some sense of +letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the +world and to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward +his enemies--his employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully +in control of the social situation as he made out, and he certainly +resisted all efforts on my part to think in a more generous and active +way toward people toward whom he felt bitter. In other words, he had +no inclination or tendency to try to get out of that mood--I don't +remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that attitude. + +I suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about +the only way he would or could get it out. He perhaps never had any +experience of relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being +kind to someone, so you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that +was just pious or just talking to suggest that that was a way out of +that feeling. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable +degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our +particular society? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive +feelings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In that it affected his attitude toward almost everything? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with +his wife? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. I thought he +was very proper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, this is the way I supposed he was. I knew that he +didn't smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine +attitude toward women or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a +form of life that would be contradictory to his ethics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no idea that he had been engaged in the Fair Play +for Cuba activities while he was in New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Ruth about Oswald's employment +situation in New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall--no. I think I asked her what kind of +a job he had found, and that was the extent of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you he had found? + +Mr. PAINE. She said he had found the same kind of work he left +here--the engraving business--or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Ruth ever mentioning that Oswald had said +that he had gotten fired from his job in New Orleans because of his +activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember her mentioning that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very +much for coming. + +Mr. PAINE. All right. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MAJ. GEN. EDWIN A. WALKER AND GEN. CLYDE J. WATTS + +The testimony of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker was taken at 4:15 p.m., on +July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. +Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that General Walker is being +represented by Clyde J. Watts of Oklahoma City. + +Would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +General WALKER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your +testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the +Commission by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Pursuant to the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled +to be represented by counsel. As the record now indicates, you are +represented by counsel, General Watts. I understand that you are +appearing voluntarily before the Commission in response to its request +to give testimony touching upon certain matters relating to Lee Harvey +Oswald and to the assassination of President Kennedy. Is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have the record show that prior to the +commencement of this deposition, a discussion between General Watts +and General Walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement +under which a copy of the transcript of the testimony which will be +taken here today will be made available here at the office of the U.S. +attorney for examination by General Walker and by his counsel. They +will be given an opportunity to make whatever changes in the testimony +may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects accurately what +happened here today. + +We also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with Mr. +Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, that as soon as a +copy can reasonably be made available, within 2 or 3 days after this +transcript has been signed by General Walker and approved by me, a +copy of the transcript will be made available to General Walker at his +expense. It may be purchased from the court reporter here in Dallas. We +will make whatever arrangements may seem proper at that time to give +the general a corrected copy. Would you state your full name for the +record, please? + +General WALKER. Edwin A. Walker. A stands for Anderson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +General WALKER. 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there? + +General WALKER. I believe since December of 1961 or January of 1962. I +am not sure of the month I moved in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your +background for the record, since I think we all know who you are, but +you are a retired major general, are you not? + +General WALKER. No. I am former major general, now resigned from the +U.S. Army. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You resigned from the Army. Where were you originally +born and raised, general? + +General WALKER. At Center Point, Tex. I was born in 1909, November 10. +Center Point is Kerr County. It is C-e-n-t-e-r P-o-i-n-t, Kerr County, +Tex. That is 60 miles west of San Antonio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Since your resignation from the Army and your taking up +residence in Dallas, you have been active, have you not, in various +political endeavors here in Dallas and throughout the United States? + +General WALKER. Patriotic and political endeavors. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, +1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on +Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that +event, as you can now recall them? + +General WALKER. I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 +o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades +were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, +with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I +heard a blast and a crack right over my head. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then? + +General WALKER. I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the +house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, +that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. +Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing +back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, +but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up +and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I +saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was +sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered +in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the +wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went +out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything outside that you could relate to +this attack on you? + +General WALKER. No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming +downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just +making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could +see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and +I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right +time for anybody that was making a getaway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs +directly at the rear of your house; is that correct? + +General WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, +or does it join with another alley? + +General WALKER. No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with +the street called Avondale. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that to get---- + +General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek +going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot +of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn +directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, +and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was +just making the turn out of the church alley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek? + +General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle +Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance +of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west +practically to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you +have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I +know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or +twice only. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back +door of your house? + +General WALKER. I went out the back door. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley? + +General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just +turning? + +General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I +observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. +I could see out the south window, front and left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone +from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point +entering Turtle Creek Boulevard? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned? + +General WALKER. Left, going north. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the +automobile at all? + +General WALKER. None at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it? + +General WALKER. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just +debarking? + +General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's +windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably +wouldn't have seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It +only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can +hardly see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph +that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you +can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it. + +General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the +wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. It is not really +a picture. They used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type +peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk +that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct? + +General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks +like. I could take the picture and probably match it up with those +flowers. It is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it? + +General WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is +shown in that picture. + +General WATTS. Can we go off the record a minute? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally? + +General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house, +taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it +shows the shot and the broken glass in the window. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home? + +General WALKER. The window of my home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at +you on April 10, 1963? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk? + +General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a +minute. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right. + +General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody +got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. +I didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking +the picture was taken from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and +it is from the outside. This looks like there is a table here, from +this window, and in the corner running that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window? + +General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between +that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this +corner, and that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have +a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. It is +possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. There are two windows +in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. That is one +of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel. The window is still +further back here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture? + +General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk? + +General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and +looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk +across the room? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window, +or was it sitting catercornered? + +General WALKER. It was sitting catercornered in the corner on the +opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the +center of the room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the +shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways? + +General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind +of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from +the back, or from the front? I think it would be from the side. + +General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the +side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the +room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been +marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a +picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where +the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point? + +General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired +through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to +the Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture +of that window. + +General WALKER. That is the same shot then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the +window frame before it went through. Does that accord with your +recollection? + +General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame. Then it went +through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked +Commission Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a +picture of the next room. + +General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame +has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the +crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the +glass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next +to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that +was stored and the place where the bullet came out. + +General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went +through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet +was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as +Walker Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of +identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion +as to the identification of that picture. + +(General Walker initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture +what it shows? + +General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard +of my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken +near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed +east. It shows the fence running down on the left side between my +rented property, and the church property. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this +shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where +the police officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over +there in front of a window, isn't there? + +General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right +in here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is +standing in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the +house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time +the shot was fired at you? You were sitting in a room that is not even +visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees +that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the +right. His position is to the right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture? + +General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot +came in that picture? + +General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers +out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the +possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that +time, and specifically I wonder---- + +General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and +showed them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked +me out or not. There wasn't much to tell them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it +appeared the shot had been fired? + +General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed +they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out +into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture? + +General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Walker Exhibit No. 1. Were you able to determine to +your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired? + +General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was +fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind +him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence +which had spaces in it, squares of about 4 to 6 inches. + +Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the +wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this +point, based on the information I have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked Walker Exhibit +No. 2, and I ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there. + +(General Walker initials.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence +to which you have just referred? + +General WALKER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other +side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely +the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that +correct? + +I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General +Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so +if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he +would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera +with the rifle through the fence? + +General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely +have been right in this picture, that is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since +you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere +about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or +slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, I have considerable +difficulty in that I can't see the window through which the shot went. +How could the shot have been fired from there? + +General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and +look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is +just a question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a +question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the +inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night +with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation? + +General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that +is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. +Windows don't show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the +left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6 +glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit +that doesn't show. + +Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in. + +Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that +time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you +come to the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3 +feet to the corner of the house. + +Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was +in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the +house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being Walker Exhibit No. 1. + +General WALKER. But I don't see how you could take a picture and see +less of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the +picture and everything dark. The whole house is dark under the light, +the way that picture was taken, so that you see very little of the +house except the policeman, what he has of the light coming out behind +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Now did you make any sudden movement on or about +the time that shot was fired? + +General WALKER. None that I was aware of; no. Just moving with a pencil +and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from where you were sitting to the fence +where we think the shot was fired from? How many feet? + +General WALKER. I would say 100 feet. I would say between 100 and 120 +feet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever say in words or substance after this shot +was fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? That sounds +like something you might say, doesn't it? + +General WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that? + +General WALKER. But I will tell you what I did think. I think I said +that, right. The police asked me to sit down. You want me to tell you? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +General WALKER. The police asked me to sit down when I got there and +they went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and +outside. + +And one policeman said, "He couldn't have missed you." And one said, a +lieutenant I believe it was, said, "It was an attempted assassination." + +And I said, "What makes you call it that?" And he said, "Because he +definitely was out to get you." + +And I said, "Your remark sounds like a natural remark." But as I later +was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without +a scope. He couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work +either in the windows or in the screens because of the light. It would +have looked like one big lighted area, and he could have been a very +good shot and just by chance he hit the woodwork. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which he did in fact? + +General WALKER. Which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to +miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet +that went into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 2 +and ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture? + +General WALKER. Yes; I identify this picture looking approximately +south down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the +alley enters the church, a few steps short of where the alley enters +the church parking area. It is facing approximately south. Shows the +back entrance to my back yard and the tree and my garbage can and the +lattice fence on the west. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs down there is the alley that runs +directly behind your house, isn't that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. And the direction we are looking is +the direction in which it connects and joins Avondale Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that object in the background that looks +like a building maybe under construction? + +General WALKER. That is the bigger apartment house down south of me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. +1003, that is a copy of Exhibit No. 1003, and ask you if that larger +apartment building shown in the right background of that picture is not +in fact the same building that is shown as being under construction in +Commission Exhibit No. 2? + +General WALKER. As well as I can identify it, it looks like the same +building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking further at Exhibit No. 1003, there is a house +that is circled and indicated by the letter "A." That is, in fact, your +house, is it not? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the street marked "E" is Turtle Creek Boulevard? + +General WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the +general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not? + +General WALKER. That is correct. And "H" would be Avondale. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. And "G" is Irving Street? + +General WALKER. That I don't know. Probably is. The church alley shows +up here going into Turtle Creek. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Point that out to me, would you please? + +General WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is a little street that runs right between your house +and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the +circle? + +General WALKER. Which is the Mormon Church. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the church, is that correct? + +General WALKER. And the car was right here I referred to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just turning from the church alley? + +General WALKER. Just turning here, and turning this direction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Turning left up Turtle Creek? + +General WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of +Commission Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene +portrayed in that picture? + +General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your +attention to the automobile that is shown in there. + +General WALKER. I do not recognize the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr? + +General WALKER. Would you spell it again? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r. 2046 +Rosebud Street, Irving, Tex. Do you know that man? + +General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the +spelling, it is C-l-y-r. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in Irving? + +General WALKER. I think he does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address? + +General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize +that address. That could or couldn't be it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car? + +General WALKER. I don't recognize that car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be +talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to +time? + +General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out +quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his? + +General WALKER. No; I am not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't +you able to tell by looking? + +General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicate that to the very far left of this +photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, through these bushes there is a +window, and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is +that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there +as you look at the picture? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt that that is the back of your +house? + +General WALKER. None at all. That is the back of the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen that picture before, have you? + +General WALKER. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of Commission +Exhibit No. 3. The photograph that I refer to is set forth in this +copy, and I refer specifically to the one denominated P-1 and ask you +if you recognize the scene portrayed therein. + +General WALKER. Yes; I recognize that as the back of my house, a +portion of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have another photograph I have marked Walker Exhibit +No. 3, and I ask you to initial that, if you would, for the purpose of +identification. + +General WALKER (initials). Can I look at it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, please. That is a picture of the back of your house +too, isn't it? + +General WALKER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you another picture which is Walker Exhibit +No. 4, and I ask you to initial that, and ask you if that isn't in fact +a picture of the alley behind your house. + +General WALKER (initials). Yes; that is a picture of the alley looking +south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down +to where the alley connects with Avondale showing the back fence and +the entrance into my backyard. I believe the picture is taken at a +different date from the other one we referred to, because the fence has +been changed behind the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That apartment is completed in the picture? + +General WALKER. That's right. There was work on the fence in the other +house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of +construction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, it looks to be completed in Walker Exhibit No. +4, does it not, the apartment building? + +General WALKER. Yes; it does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a series of photographs which are copies +of Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, and 1004, and ask you +if each and every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general +vicinity of your home and surrounding area, and if the identification +of landmarks in those pictures, insofar as you can tell, is correct. + +General WALKER. 998 is identification of my home. 1000 would certainly +include the area of my home. It is hard to identify the exact house +marked "A". + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that big old apartment building is in there in 1000? + +General WALKER. That is correct. So it is bound to include the area of +my home; 1002 is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; 1004 +certainly includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult +without further study to definitely identify that as my home. They all +include the area of my home. My home definitely is in those pictures. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as +the identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the record on this Klihr, it does appear, +in fact, to be K-l-i-h-r. + +General WALKER. Why don't we ring the house and establish that that is +correct. LA 1-4415. + +(General Watts called on phone and confirmed it was K-l-i-h-r.) + +General WALKER. What is it? + +General WATTS. K-l-i-h-r. + +General WALKER. All right; that is the original spelling you had? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +General WALKER. OK; that is correct. It is Charles Klihr. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Robert Surrey? + +General WALKER. Yes, I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has Mr. Surrey discussed with you the fact that on June +3, 1964, he was interviewed by an agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation and shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to +Commission Exhibit No. 5, which showed this automobile behind your +house with the license plate obliterated on it? Did he tell you he had +been asked about that? + +General WALKER. He told me about a picture being shown to him of the +back side of my house, and I believe he referred to it showing some +automobile or automobiles being behind the house, but I don't remember +any reference to that car or the hole in it. There wasn't any reference +to that car, if that is a hole in the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that Commission Exhibit No. 5 that we +have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole +torn in there right where the black part is on the car. The original +picture itself has a hole right through there. + +General WALKER. Then it is not a hole in the car? + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which +this thing I show you now is a copy. + +General WALKER. Oh, I see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought exactly what you thought the first time I +looked at it; that that was a hole in the car. It is not. It is a hole +in the picture. + +General WALKER. He referred to being shown photographs with the back of +the premises and the car or something back there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember him telling you that he was able +to identify this as Charles Klihr's car? + +General WALKER. No; I don't remember that he identified the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that Mr. Surrey saw two men in the +vicinity of your house shortly before April 10, 1963, acting in a +manner that he regarded as suspicious. Did he report that to you at or +about that time? + +General WALKER. He has reported that to me, and I don't remember the +date on which he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you? + +General WALKER. I can't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact, +that Surrey had seen two men out there in an automobile that didn't +have any license plate on it? + +General WALKER. Yes; I do. I knew. He told me that he had come toward +my house and noticed a car, as I remember, parked on Avondale, and he +went on by or backed up or something and got out and came behind the +car and saw two men moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in +the back part of my house. Then he followed that car. They went down to +the center of town, and he lost them. I would suspect that he told me +that the next morning, if not that night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not you reported that to the +police? + +General WALKER. Yes; that was called in to the police. As I recall, +that was. I believe there is a report at the house that it was called +in to the police. As I recall, it was, and I told them what we knew +about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called +in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired? + +General WALKER. As I reflect, it must have been called in either that +night or the next morning. I don't recall the exact time, but the +police record will show it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do +that, if you remember? + +General WALKER. As I recall, I made it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of response you got from the +Dallas Police Department? + +General WALKER. Seemed normal. Wasn't upset about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, subsequent to April 10, 1963, of course, the Dallas +Police Department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is +that not right? + +General WALKER. Will you repeat that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department investigated this attack on +you that occurred on April 10, 1963? They sent men out there and talked +to you and took some pictures? + +General WALKER. Oh, subsequent to it; yes. Subsequent, right; they did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they +might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have +been involved? + +General WALKER. I don't recall that they did. They may have, and I may +have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had +worked for me. I don't recall this definitely, but the records will +probably show. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records like that here? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald come up in connection with +this investigation in any way at that time? + +General WALKER. No; it didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know William Duff? + +General WALKER. I know who William Duff is under that name; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked +for you as a batman? + +General WALKER. Yes; that is what he calls himself; right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Duff? + +General WALKER. He walked in the house late one evening and said he was +out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and I put him up and put him +to work. The date I would have to get for you; I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was it sometime prior to April 10, 1963, in any +event? + +General WALKER. Yes; it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Duff living in your house at the time of the attack +on you? + +General WALKER. No; he wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About how long had he been gone; can you remember? + +General WALKER. As general figures, I would say he worked about 3 +months for me, and he had been gone a month or two. I would have to +verify these. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that Duff +might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you? + +General WALKER. I suspected that he might be involved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you conducted an investigation of that possibility, +did you not? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with that investigation, two detectives +from General Watts' office, one, Kester, and one, Roberts, came down to +Dallas and engaged in an investigation, did they not? + +General WALKER. They did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us about that, please? + +General WALKER. They were in and out, as I remember, in the +investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during +it, and even drove Duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how +he would have shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such +intentions. + +General WATTS. I got a call--I don't remember the exact date--but I do +have a record of it. I got a call from Mrs. Kenecht in General Walker's +office to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some +lady who advised Mrs. Kenecht that this boy Duff had been going with +the lady's daughter and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in +on the shooting at General Walker. + +So I sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned, +connected with our office. They are ex-detectives or policemen from the +Oklahoma City Police Department and do freelance investigating. I sent +them down here with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could +from Duff, because we were very apprehensive that he might take another +shot at Walker. + +We couldn't get Duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he +professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise +$5,000. It is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over +to the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask: Were you, General Walker, generally familiar +with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the +progress? + +General WALKER. I was familiar with the progress of the investigation +and got a final copy of it. I thought it solved nothing, but Duff was +telling his usual lies. + +Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts' description of these events is accurate, +to the best of your knowledge; is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct, except that I do not agree with +General Watts' statement that Duff had implicated himself in the attack +on me by statements to the daughter of this woman who called Mrs. +Kenecht. My information is only to the effect that the girl's mother +was upset about her daughter's friendship with Duff. As far as I know, +she never said that Duff admitted being involved in the attack on me +that occurred on April 10, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts, you indicated you had some additional +information on Mr. Duff. + +General WATTS. Yes; one Friday evening--I could get the exact date--I +was dictating in my bedroom at home, and I looked up and there stood +Duff whom I hadn't seen since he had worked at General Walker's, but +whom we had investigated, and he told me a rather weird story. + +He had gone to the Army and was stationed at Fort Sill, and immediately +after the assassination he was interrogated by personnel from the +Justice Department and was charged with fraudulent enlistment, +according to him. He had failed to enter on his enlistment papers that +he had worked for General Walker, and when it became known that he had +worked for General Walker, he was charged with fraudulent enlistment +along in December 1963, and his pay cut off. + +He professed to me that he had been living at Fort Sill, although not +under arrest, but without pay since the previous December, and had +no funds, and was about to be discharged. So in order to keep tab on +him, I arranged for him to get a job with a friend, Paul Blakeley, for +whom he worked for a short time, and later got him another job with +a contractor, W. H. Thompson, for whom he is, as far as I know, still +working. And after things get quieted down, I fully intend to see what +information I can get out of Duff, if you can depend on what he says, +and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, the inference to be drawn is that Duff is an +extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth? + +General WALKER. I wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it +was verified. + +General WATTS. I did call Fort Sill and talk to the judge advocate, who +raised considerable question as to the accuracy of the story Duff told +me. And frankly, I wouldn't believe a word the boy would say unless I +have absolute verification of it. But I am at least suspicious that he +knows something that he has never told. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as the attempt on General Walker is concerned? + +General WATTS. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, what makes you think that he does know +something about that? + +Let me say this. Since this is almost a friendly, if I may say so, +session, I assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are +making will be under oath, is that correct? And you will swear to that? + +General WATTS. Yes. + +General WALKER. They should be identified as that of my attorney +because they don't necessarily agree with my opinion. + +General WATTS. My opinion and General Walker's don't frequently jibe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let us swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the +testimony you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this +deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +General WATTS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicated that you had some belief that Duff +might know something about the attempt on General Walker that he hasn't +told you. Do you have any basis for that? + +General WATTS. My only basis is suspicion. First; his generally +unreliable nature. Second; I have never fully satisfied myself as +to the accuracy of the investigation these boys made where Duff +undoubtedly had made some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown +woman who called in. We have never been able to locate or identify her. +I have never reconciled his tape recorder statement that he had not +shot at Walker, but would do so for $5,000, with the apparent statement +to this unidentified woman's daughter that he had actually fired at +Walker. In other words, we could never verify that by our investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a +conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to +Duff's involvement in the attack made on you on April 10. Do you think +he knows anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he +was involved in it in any way? Do you have any evidence to indicate +that he was? + +General WALKER. I also know that I wouldn't believe 90 percent of what +Duff said about anything. I have come to no conclusion even after the +investigation that he was even involved. Knowing Duff; I felt that if +the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked more than +Duff got tricked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But these investigators weren't able to develop anything +that led you to think that Duff had been involved in the attack on you +made on April 10, 1963, isn't that right? + +General WALKER. It led me to believe what? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That Duff had been involved in the attack on you. + +General WALKER. According to his fantastic stories, it might lead to +the belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but Duff +is so fantastic that I don't believe a word he says. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence other than the statement that +Duff is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate +that he was involved in the attack on you? Do you have any indication +that he was involved in it at all? + +General WALKER. None; other than, as I remember what he has stated, and +there is something else. And based on Duff's nature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't believe what he said? + +General WALKER. He never appeared a vicious fellow, and I rather liked +the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time I had him, until I +realized that nothing was truthful that he said, and I felt that he had +left feeling friendly, actually, except that he left by having been +ushered to the door while I was gone and told not to come back. + +General WATTS. He truly professes to feeling very friendly to +General Walker. I have never confronted him with the fact that the +investigators have a tape recording that he was anxious to get a +shot at Walker for $5,000, but I am still suspicious that Duff knows +something that he hasn't told. + +General WALKER. It is certainly true, to further my counsel's +statement, that Duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and +beer joints and so forth, and he could still know something and not be +involved himself. + +General WATTS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you any information of any kind that would +indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you? + +General WALKER. None; other than the indications that have been brought +up here with respect to Duff. He did appear back in my house at one +time after this, just walked in. Which I don't bring up now as an idea +that that gave further indication that he did. I can't seem to recall +exactly what the purpose of his visit was, but I wasn't very warm +toward him and he was soon out the door after talking to him maybe 5 or +10 minutes. + +Other than Duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of +anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and +expressed by other people regarding Oswald's connection in the case of +shooting at me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So aside from Duff and aside from what has been made +public as regards Oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or +conclusions or ideas as to who might have taken the shot at you on +April 10, 1963? + +General WALKER. No; I am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact +that--not particularly you, as the FBI having taken the information +on the case from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is +now responsible for an open case, and also the lack of contact with my +counsel at any time regarding Oswald's position in this from the time +the shot was fired or even after the events of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, all that information will be made public +eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at +this moment is, you don't have any other information other than what we +have already covered here that would give us any ideas as to who might +have done that, is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for believing that there was any +connection between Duff and Oswald? + +General WALKER. None at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never even heard of Oswald? + +General WALKER. Only with respect to what we have passed over with +regard to what we have said about Duff, and we have heard said about +Oswald. I have no information of Oswald's name ever being mentioned +in my house, and I had never heard of the name with regard to the +individual we are referring to at any time since I have been in Dallas +or any other time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never heard of any connection until the +assassination? + +General WALKER. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically, +no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way +connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk +Coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as +far as I am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked. + +I would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to +talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release +on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman +and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, this +Commission---- + +General WATTS. I never tried to talk to Coleman. + +General WALKER. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say +anything. That may not be the direct information, but I think you will +find it about what the situation is. + +General WATTS. This is off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk +to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? + +General WALKER. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak +to him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has +been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to +talk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, General Walker, do you remember? + +General WALKER. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to +anybody? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law +enforcement agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would +like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is +back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under +advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to +dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements, if there +are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this +further? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my +knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told +anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or +form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1. + +Point 2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into +this matter, and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to +conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the +request of the Commission, and the report will include a finding one +way or the other as to whether Oswald was the man who was involved in +this attack on you. + +General WALKER. It will have such a finding? + +Mr. LIEBELER. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure. + +General WALKER. Then it must be handling the case, because we have +information that the city police turned all the information over to the +FBI and there was nothing for us to deal with them about. + +My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely +said that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were +under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying +on any development of the cases. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any +other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to +do. The FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the +Dallas Police Department does the same thing. + +General WALKER. I think we should have a round robin discussion with +the city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have +stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and +the Warren Reynolds case back where they should be. I would think that +we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open +cases in the city of Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of +the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for +open cases in the city of Dallas. That your counsel will tell you. That +is perfectly obvious. + +General WALKER. Then I want to go on the record that the city police +has misused the Commission and also the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no knowledge of that. + +General WALKER. I think it is--I can't straighten it out and neither +can my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is +misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is +an open case, and this is true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you +know about that. + +General WALKER. I certainly will. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out +here. + +Go ahead. + +General WALKER. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want +me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Warren Reynolds? + +General WALKER. I do know Warren Reynolds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him? + +General WALKER. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone, +I would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot +through the temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press +release, but I didn't seem to bring it with me. But you probably have +that date. + +It doesn't make much difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in +the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been +shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away. + +I left on a trip and came back to the house, and I was curious about +Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody in the house to call and see about +Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital. + +I found out that day finally after calling out to his place of +business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. I think +we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. I +would say that was about 10 days from the time he was fired at. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the date of that? + +General WALKER. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964, +and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there. + +I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me +or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what +had happened to him. + +Within a day or two I would say--I said, "If you want to see me, you +can." And he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him +with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and I +have been quite interested in his case. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the +contact with Mr. Reynolds? + +General WALKER. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him? + +General WALKER. Sir? + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the first time you actually saw him in person, +if you ever did, and I believe that you did. + +General WALKER. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the +first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first +telephone conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his +brother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him in person altogether? + +General WALKER. I believe he has been in the house twice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have also had various telephone conversations with +him, isn't that right, General Walker? + +General WALKER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday +noon, didn't you? + +General WALKER. Very likely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether you did? + +General WALKER. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the +exact time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance +of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in +contact with him. + +General WALKER. I was very much interested in his case and why they +would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, +according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald +in the domestic state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit. + +I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could +regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the +police were doing about it, and how he felt about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to +you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him +and his observation of Oswald? + +General WALKER. Pardon? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit? + +General WALKER. Will you repeat the question? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some +connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit? + +General WALKER. We discussed that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection +between the two? + +General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is? + +General WALKER. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is? + +General WALKER. I think there is a definite--I don't know that you +could call it evidence--but you can anticipate that people would like +to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. People right +here in Dallas. And I don't think anybody knows or would have known at +the time after November 22 how much or how little Warren Reynolds knew. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he? + +General WALKER. He would become a very good example, regardless of what +he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure +speculation on your part? + +General WALKER. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it +or disprove it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to +harass you. + +I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on +how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, +because the Commission would certainly like to know if there is. + +General WALKER. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman +in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel +Club, her only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I +remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was +driven over to this used car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of +information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story +written by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got +all this information? + +General WALKER. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of +the pieces of information I had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements +that Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what +you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper. + +Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other +statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you +to believe there might be some connection between these two events? +Isn't that a fair statement? + +General WALKER. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story +that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before +he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on. + +There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which +no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already +know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing +that makes me curious about this attempt on Warren's life as the one +out of a hundred of used car lot operators in Dallas, to attempt the +assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald, makes this quite unusual. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the +things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some +connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you +have already suggested. + +General WALKER. I have just referred to one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That one that you referred to is the---- + +General WALKER. The fact that there has not been, as far as I know, any +finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Reynolds had said that the +law enforcement--you didn't say Reynolds said it--you said that you +understood that the law enforcement officers had checked Reynolds just +2 days before he had been shot; is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Reynolds told you? + +General WALKER. That is correct. I believe he referred to them as FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indications of any possible +relationship between these things, that would help the Commission try +to find out if there is a relationship between these events? + +General WALKER. I don't think of anything else; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you sent a telegram to the Commission suggesting that +we question Warren Reynolds? + +General WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you probably know, of course, we have questioned him +yesterday. + +General WALKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss Mr. Reynolds' appearance with us, with +him? + +General WALKER. I did. He called me on the telephone and we discussed +it. He said you were a very nice young man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, General Walker. Thank Mr. Reynolds. You didn't +say that. That is what he said. That isn't what you said. + +General WALKER. I may call him tonight and tell him the same thing. + +I think we are working in the same effort and same direction. I haven't +done anything to hide on this thing. I do ask that you all get the +chain of command straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with +respect to the case. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Those problems come up many times because there isn't any +real chain of command or responsibility between these people. We don't +have very much to do with the Dallas Police Department. + +General WALKER. When they pass things to the FBI and the FBI is +responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of +their hands. Certainly they have used that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that +would indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on +the assassination of the President? + +General WALKER. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said +he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a +definite recognition of conspiracy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Suggesting that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was +involved? + +General WALKER. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when +one of its members does it, who thinks like they do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is of course, your view. My question of you +is this. Do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would indicate +either the involvement of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or any other +individual or organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the +President. + +The fact that Oswald may have been a member of this organization, which +he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different +ways. But my question to you is somewhat different from that, and +that is, do you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this +organization or any other organization or any other person was involved +with Oswald in the assassination of the President? + +General WALKER. My answer to you is that I have exactly the evidence +that you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the +conspiracy, because he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee, and I consider the objectives of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee a Communist activity and a conspiracy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with +Oswald prior to the time that he assassinated the President, if he did +the assassination; do you have any indication of that? + +General WALKER. I have no personal knowledge that they did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that they did? + +General WALKER. I certainly do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what that is? + +General WALKER. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over +the country that Rubenstein and Oswald had some association. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you indicate to us what it was? + +General WALKER. Well, I am wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein +can take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick +up the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us when and where that happened? + +General WALKER. I haven't been able to verify that it happened for +sure, but I have been told that it happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +General WALKER. My information came from a repairman, from another +fellow to a friend of mine, to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you give us the name of the person? + +General WALKER. I don't think it is necessary. I think you have all the +information, because the information also includes the fact that the +records were picked up in the repair shop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whether we have the information or not, I am asking you +if you know the name of that repairman who said that Oswald said he +picked up his car? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the garage? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. As I remember, it was a hotel garage. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give us the name of the people that brought the +information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? Who the +garageman is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman +somewhere. + +General WALKER. No; I think your sources are better than mine on this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is not my question. My question is, do you know +their names? + +General WALKER. Yes; I do, but I am not telling. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not going to tell us the names of these people? + +General WALKER. Hold up. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +General WALKER. We are all working in the best interests of this thing. +I don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. You +know whether the information is any good or not, and I don't see any +reason to get any more people involved than are already involved +in it. The information is either correct or incorrect, and can be +substantiated by your Commission, or it is not. + +This that I am telling you is the information I have got. Now, if you +all find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, +but revelation of the names of the people isn't necessary to your +information with regard to the assassination. I think we have covered +the assassination, and--as helpful as I can be--don't think I wouldn't +be delighted to see exactly all the truth that can probably come out of +it, come out of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All we are asking you to do is give us whatever +information you have that can help us in this investigation. + +General WALKER. That I think we have covered, haven't we? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know whether we have or not. + +General WALKER. If you find out you need the further information that +will really help the assassination story--we will leave it like this--I +will do the best I can to cooperate on it, but I don't think it is +necessary to reveal all the sources of my information, and the story +which you all should have the basic facts. The basic facts are the +records on the story and you either know whether or not they are true +or not. I haven't done all this investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not able to make a determination as to +whether or not the information that you have would be helpful to the +Commission's work because I don't know what information you have. + +General WALKER. Let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest +of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we +will reveal it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to let the question stand. I do ask you to +tell me who advised you or who apprised you of information that +Oswald picked up Jack Ruby's car, because I am not able to make a +determination as to whether or not that information would be worthless +to the Commission. It might be helpful and it it might be that these +people should be questioned by people on the Commission staff or by the +FBI. So for that reason, I am compelled to let the question stand, and +I do renew my request for you to give me the answer. + +General WALKER. I will answer that at some later date if you find it +necessary, I will reconsider it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can +you tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald +had, as that is the statement that started all this? You indicated that +Ruby and Oswald had common acquaintances. + +General WALKER. I thought DeMar's statements--I believe the man is +DeMar--were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the +newspaper, if you call that hearsay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indication that Oswald and Ruby +were connected? + +General WALKER. I am going back on the other question. I say it was +only from newspapers. They have been also from the owner or editor of +the newspaper, who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch +with DeMar. I believe the town is on the Tennessee-Kentucky border or +somewhere up there. I don't recall the name of the town where he was at +the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is DeMar that was up there? + +General WALKER. Yes. Have I got the right name? DeMar is the man that +was on the program in one of Rubenstein's clubs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The name seems familiar to me. I don't know the man's +name actually myself. + +General WALKER. As I recall, it was DeMar, the one that made the +original statement that he saw Oswald in the club one night. That was +printed in the press. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the fellow DeMar having made the statement, do +you know of any other connection between Ruby and Oswald or any other +common acquaintances that they may have? + +General WALKER. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short +period living in the same apartment house where Ruby's sister lived. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is Ruby's sister's name? + +General WALKER. Eva Grant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what apartment house that is? + +General WALKER. No; I don't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who verified this? + +General WALKER. I say I believe I verified it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did yourself? + +General WALKER. With assistance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are telling me that you conducted an +investigation of some sort into the possibility that Ruby's sister, Eva +Grant, and Oswald lived in the same apartment house? Now is that in the +city of Dallas? + +General WALKER. That is correct. And as I recall the address, I never +did pinpoint it, but as I recall, it wouldn't be too far from where I +live. And of course, I am still interested in my case with respect to +Oswald, if there is any significance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me when they were supposed to have lived +in this apartment house? + +General WALKER. I don't recall the date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 1963? + +General WALKER. This is getting pretty old in my mind. It definitely +would have been in 1963; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? + +General WALKER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the apartment on Neely Street, if you remember? + +General WALKER. As I recall--is Neely over in Oak Cliff or on this side? + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Oak Cliff. + +General WALKER. No; it wasn't that far away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't in Oak Cliff at all? + +General WALKER. Well, I had the idea at the time that it was on this +side of town, out the side I am on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, from the time Oswald came back from the Soviet +Union and moved to Dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an +apartment on Neely Street, and on Elsbeth Street and in a room on +Marsalis Street, and 1026 North Beckley Street. Those are the only four +places he ever lived. Was it on any one of those four streets that this +is supposed to have happened? + +General WALKER. I can't recall definitely. Are they over in Oak Cliff? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe each and every one of them, with the possible +exception of Marsalis, is. + +General WALKER. I can get the information that I must have recorded +somewhere on the address we have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you have any indication that Oswald lived in the same +apartment house that Ruby's sister lived, I will appreciate it very +much if you would supply it to the Commission. + +General WALKER. Take a note on that, will you. I believe there is a +paper release on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would indicate any +connection between Ruby and Oswald? By that question I do not mean to +characterize the previous testimony. + +General WALKER. If Oswald was the one that was at my house, I wonder +where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the Las +Vegas Club is not too far from my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that Oswald went to that club? + +General WALKER. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would suggest a +connection between these two men? + +General WALKER. I think the two boxes in the post office are very +interesting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, are you suggesting that because two men both +happened to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that +suggests there is some connection between them and indicates conspiracy +to assassinate the President? + +General WALKER. The boxes were rented the same week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were what? + +General WALKER. I believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the +post office. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Rented? + +General WALKER. Rented. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that suggests a conspiracy between Oswald and +Ruby to assassinate the President? + +General WALKER. I think that is more information. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But I want to know. + +General WALKER. That suggests a possible relationship. I think the fact +that Rubenstein shot Oswald suggests plenty. I am convinced he couldn't +have shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but +to keep him quiet. That is what shooting people does. I think the +whole city of Dallas is very interested. I would be interested in the +information on a Professor Wolf, William T. Wolf. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? + +General WALKER. William T. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What information is that? + +General WALKER. The first man we found in the paper that seemed to have +come to death after the attempted shot at me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding +that. Would you tell me about Dr. Wolf? + +General WALKER. William T. Wolf is a professor that was supposedly +burned up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man +up, a normal man with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he +couldn't have been trapped in it on the first floor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Dr. Wolf? + +General WALKER. Never heard of him until I read about him in the paper, +and I believe I read about him 8 days after they shot at me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think there is some connection between Dr. Wolf's +death and the shot at you? + +General WALKER. No; but I think there is some connection with respect +to what is going on in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a +conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. I think many unusual deaths in the city of Dallas might +show some indication of what is going on in Dallas, to include what +happened on the 22d of November. And I would refer to one other, a +professor by the name of Deen. His name is George C. Deen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What has that got to do with the assassination of +President Kennedy? What are the facts about it? + +General WALKER. I would think it has to do with the investigation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in what way? + +General WALKER. It seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of +psychiatry at Timberlawn would, so far as I can tell, only show up in +the obituary page. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to this fellow? + +General WALKER. Reported died of natural causes, I believe, or +certainly nothing more than the obituary, so far as I can find. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the organization known as The +Minutemen? + +General WALKER. In general terms. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of that organization? + +General WALKER. I am not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between The Minutemen and +the assassination of President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part +of any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between any of the people +who associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a +political leader, and the assassination of President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. No. People that follow me are for constitutional +government. This is absolutely in violation of constitutional +government. Very destructive to what we stand for. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that there is no involvement of any kind +or nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that +associate with you or are involved with you in the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. I certainly know of none, and I certainly wouldn't be +suspicious of any. I would be suspicious from the center to the left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you don't have any knowledge of or +information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or +involvement of any rightwing organization or person; is that correct? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I asked General Watts to bring whatever records you +have that would indicate your whereabouts in October and after that +in 1963. Particularly, I want to know whether you were at a political +rally or meeting that was held immediately prior to the visit of Adlai +Stevenson to the city of Dallas in October of 1963. + +General WALKER. Yes, I was the speaker on the day before Mr. Stevenson +appeared in the auditorium. I was the speaker in the same room and the +same platform on October 22. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that event called U.S. Day? + +General WALKER. U.S. Day rally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many people would you say were there at that rally? + +General WALKER. The room holds about 1,700 seats, and there were about +1,300 to 1,400. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald claims +to have been at that meeting? + +General WALKER. No, sir; I wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was there at the time? + +General WALKER. I don't know yet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't know then? + +General WALKER. Certainly didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall speaking--pardon me, not speaking, but +going to any meetings of anti-Castro Cuban groups during the month of +October 1963? + +General WALKER. During what month? + +Mr. LIEBELER. October. + +General WALKER. I don't remember a date of attendance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here +in Dallas sponsored by an organization known as DRE, which is a +revolutionary group that is opposed to Fidel Castro? Do you remember +that? + +General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is the initials of a lot of Spanish words which +stands for the Student Revolutionary Council. It is an anti-Castro +organization. + +General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? How would they have advertised +themselves? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is probably DRE. + +General WALKER. Meaning what? + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is Spanish words I am not familiar with. + +General WALKER. Well, there is a student directorate group, which I +remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified +themselves. I attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They came from Miami? + +General WALKER. I believe they came from Miami. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you contributed $5 to the organization that night? + +General WALKER. I believe I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at that meeting? + +General WALKER. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to +your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time +prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination +on November 22, 1963? + +General WALKER. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him +prior to that time? + +General WALKER. None at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or since that time? + +General WALKER. Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated +with him, unless Duff turns out to be. + +General WATTS. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench? + +General WALKER. That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me +anything to refresh me? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article +that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a +Munich, Germany, newspaper. + +General WALKER. No; I don't know him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him? + +General WALKER. Not that I know of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in +which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey +Oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life? + +General WALKER. I don't recall that name. Did he speak English? I don't +speak German. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper? + +General WALKER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29, +1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story +entitled in German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how +Oswald had allegedly attacked you. + +General WALKER. November 29, that is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do +you know? + +General WALKER. I do not. There was an article in the paper that he +probably got from me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right +on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone +conversation between you and some other person. + +General WALKER. Thorsten? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man? + +General WALKER. He called me in Shreveport. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you in Shreveport? + +General WALKER. He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7 +a.m. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is when you gave him this information about Oswald +having attacked you? + +General WALKER. I didn't give him all the information--I think the +portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way +of knowing that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very +prone to say in fact he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, +until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he +did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a record here that indicates when you were in +Shreveport? + +General WALKER. I don't know that I have a record here. I can tell you +definitely when I was in Shreveport. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you? + +General WALKER. Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a +speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of +November. I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I +was in the airplane between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, +when the pilot announced that the President had been assassinated. I +landed in Shreveport and went to the Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed +there two nights and returned to Dallas and was walking into my house, +just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of Oswald. I +had been out of the city on speaking engagements. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The question was, when were you in Shreveport, and when +did you talk to this man? + +General WALKER. I was in Shreveport the night of the 23d and the night +of the 22d. Do you have a transcript of my conversation with Mr. +Thorsten? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. + +General WALKER. Sir? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have what appears to be that; yes. + +General WALKER. Where did you get that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is apparently taken from the newspaper. The newspaper +itself had a transcript printed right in it. + +General WALKER. I believe the article you referred to in the newspaper +was separate from the other article in the paper which evolved out of +the conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now so that there were in this particular issue of the +newspaper two transcripts of a conversation between yourself and +Thorsten, and also a story about how Oswald had allegedly fired at you, +is that correct? + +General WALKER. In the newspaper I remember two separate articles. One +based upon the conversation we had between us, as he understood it, and +then as a separate article which I consider that the newspaper had done +on its own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the separate article about? Did that have any +reference to the fact that Oswald had allegedly fired at you? + +General WALKER. Yes. As I remember the article, it alleged that Oswald +was the one that had fired at me, and that this had been known earlier, +and that this had been known and that nothing was done about it. + +And if something had been done about it at that time, he wouldn't have +been the man that--it wouldn't have been possible for him to have +killed the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, did you tell anybody from this newspaper that +Oswald had shot at you and that this had been known prior to the time +of the assassination of the President? + +General WALKER. No; I did not. I wouldn't have known it. It was much +later that they began to tie Oswald into me, and I don't even know it +yet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you certainly didn't know it before November 22? + +General WALKER. Or the morning of the 23d, certainly not. I was very +surprised to see the article. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the best of your recollection is that you never +provided them with the information? + +General WALKER. I did not. I didn't know it at the time of this +conversation at all. I didn't know it until I started reading the +newspaper, which would have been later than then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think that is right, so that you only had two +conversations with these people, is that correct? + +General WALKER. In connection with this incident, as I remember, there +was a call back to verify something on the original conversation? +I don't remember how the conversation came about. There were two +telephone conversations; right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They both took place while you were down in Louisiana, +the 23d and the 22d of November? + +General WALKER. The first one was 7 o'clock in the morning the 23d, and +it woke me up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the faintest idea that Oswald had taken +a shot at you and you didn't make a statement to that effect to the +newspaper? + +General WALKER. No; I didn't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't make a statement to the newspaper or anybody +connected with it at any other time, isn't that a fact? + +General WALKER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is it not a fact? + +General WALKER. I might have said that the reports over here had +connected Oswald with me some subsequent time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am somewhat puzzled by the whole thing, because the +newspaper in which this apparently appeared is dated November 29, and +in fact, that information was not known to anybody that I know of until +a later date than that---- + +General WALKER. Much later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Several days, at any rate. + +General WALKER. People began to guess it immediately. I should say +guess at it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It might have been that the article was based on +speculation, and it might have been the newspaper was postdated too. I +think that sometimes happens. + +General WALKER. I think that paper was definitely postdated. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that would explain it. That is what I mean, predated. + +General WALKER. That is something else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that you think the +Commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about? + +General WALKER. Yes. I think the Commission should look into George De +Mohrenschildt, if it hasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you know about Mr. De Mohrenschildt? + +General WALKER. I know that my information indicates that he lived next +door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would connect De +Mohrenschildt to the assassination of President Kennedy in any way? + +General WALKER. I have the information the paper had that connected him +with the Oswalds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? + +General WALKER. Of course, it is common knowledge that De Mohrenschildt +was associated with Oswald now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, do you have any information to indicate +that De Mohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +General WALKER. Not directly. + +General WATTS. Do you have any indirect evidence? + +General WALKER. I am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and I have +had enough of this, and it is about time that the Commission cleared +the city of Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you have any indirect indication or +evidence that would associate De Mohrenschildt with the assassination +of President Kennedy in any way? + +General WALKER. I think it is very important that De Mohrenschildt +knew Oswald. I think it is very interesting. My information is that De +Mohrenschildt went to Haiti. I have nothing further to add. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think the Commission +ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this evening? It +is now 7:15. + +General WALKER. Where am I at? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to suggest--I just wanted to let the record +show we are both working very hard. + +General WALKER. I will stay here all night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you have anything else that you think the Commission +should know or that you consider to be of material importance, I want +you to say so, General Walker, because I think that you have--I hope +you realize that the Commission is trying to do the best job that it +can with the situation, and that if you can be of help to us, or if +anybody else could be of help to us, we want your help. + +General WALKER. That is my approach to the problem. We certainly want +the truth. We want the truth to come out. + +General WATTS. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +General WALKER. I believe it has been released to the press that, and +I am not sure that it has, but some information has gotten to me, I +can't recall how, but the bullet that was fired at me matched the gun +of the type that Oswald used on the 22d. That sounds rather vague, but +I believe that is the way the information has come. + +General WATTS. This is off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts has indicated that he had some ammunition +the investigators got from Mr. Duff and I request you to forward that +ammunition, to deliver it to the FBI in Oklahoma City and ask them +to forward it to the FBI laboratory, and I will contact the FBI in +Washington when I get back. + +General WALKER. Don't you want to clarify that where they found that in +the apartment, wasn't it? + +General WATTS. Yes. I will get the investigator and get the detailed +source of the ammunition and turn the ammunition over to the FBI in +Oklahoma City. + +General WALKER. I can think of nothing else that I am not sure hasn't +already come to the Commission one way or another. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. I have no more questions. I want to thank you +very much for coming down and appearing before us and giving us the +testimony you have. We appreciate it. + +General WALKER. Thank you very much. If I can do anything further for +you, we will be happy to. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BERNARD WEISSMAN + +The testimony of Bernard Weissman was taken at 10:30 a.m., on June 9, +1964, at the U.S. District Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., +by Mr. Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Bernard Weissman, called as a witness, having first been duly sworn by +the notary public, testified as follows: + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, could you state your full name? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Bernard Weissman. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And your address? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. 439 South Columbus Avenue, Mount Vernon, N.Y. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, did you receive a copy of the rules +governing this deposition? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had an opportunity to study them? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. I have had an opportunity to study them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your occupation, Mr. Weissman? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Salesman. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How long have you lived at your present address? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Presently or totally? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Presently. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. About 1 year. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, I now hand you an advertisement beginning +"Welcome, Mr. Kennedy," from the Dallas Morning News, Friday, November +22, 1963, which I will mark Weissman Exhibit No. 1. + +(Excerpt from Dallas Morning News, Friday, November 22, 1963, marked +Weissman Exhibit No. 1.) + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Might I interject at this point that since I don't have +the advice of counsel, that I reserve the right to refuse to answer any +question that I feel may not be in my best interests at the moment? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Certainly. Now, under the rules, of course, you are +entitled to counsel, and if you wish we can adjourn this deposition so +that you can get counsel. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I have tried to get counsel, and I frankly can't +afford it, and the counsel I could afford wouldn't take the case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Well, would you wish us to try to make +arrangements for a court-appointed counsel? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. This would be entirely up to you. I should think +possibly that if I can see my way clear to answer your more pertinent +questions--in other words, to your satisfaction--it might not be +necessary. Otherwise, we can do this some other time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is entirely up to you. Now, we can adjourn if +you want or we can continue and see whether the questions are pertinent +in your mind or not. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. I would rather continue and to avoid repeating this +again, taking time out. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, I hand you this advertisement which I have +labeled Weissman Exhibit No. 1, and ask you whether you are familiar +with this advertisement? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you the Bernard Weissman whose name appears at the +bottom of this advertisement, as chairman? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, could you tell us how this advertisement +came to be composed? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. It is rather simple. A group of individuals in Dallas, +friends of mine, got together and decided to express our feeling about +the domestic and foreign policy of the Kennedy administration, and we +felt that picketing, anything of the nature of picketing, and so forth, +wouldn't go, since the Stevenson incident. We decided that the best way +to get our point across would be to run an ad. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When was this decision made? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. The decision was made approximately a week or so before +Kennedy's arrival in Dallas. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That would be approximately November 15, 1963? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Approximately; a few days more, a few days less, in there. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Who were the individuals who participated in this +decision? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry Schmidt, Bill Burley, myself, and one or two other +individuals who I would rather not mention. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the reasons why you don't want to mention +these individuals, Mr. Weissman? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. As a matter of fact, it is not that I doubt your +sincerity, personally, it is just that I doubt that--or it is my +feeling that there are several members of the Commission that might +use, if I implicate any individuals or organizations other than the +ones I have mentioned, that this may be used as a political weapon +later this year and the coming years, and I feel that what with very +comprehensive FBI reports and the report I have given to the FBI +myself, and the Secret Service, that any loose parts that are left out +right now can be pieced together if you desire to do it, from their +reports, very simply and very easily. + +The reason I don't have the confidence I should have, not in the +Commission itself, but in some of the counsel to the Commission, for +example, Norman Redlich, if even 5 percent of what I hear about the +individual is true, I don't want to have this man in a position to hurt +anybody who has been or is an associate of mine. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, Mr. Weissman, the subject of this deposition, +of course, is the advertisement, and it is crucial to that question +who composed the ad and who was instrumental in its placement in the +newspaper. Now, you are not represented by counsel, and I don't want +to press you to answer a question in the absence of representation +by counsel. However, since this is the very subject with which the +deposition is concerned, I think that if you don't want to answer that +question we should stand adjourned until you can obtain counsel, and I +will attempt to get a court-appointed counsel for you, if you can't get +counsel yourself. If you wish, and we can hold a recess while you think +it over. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. Call a recess for a few minutes. + +(Recess.) + +Mr. WEISSMAN. What is your opinion here now? Let me put it to you that +way. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I think that if there is any question in your mind at +all as to what questions you should answer, that you should get a +lawyer. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. This is what I am going to do. I am going to read you, it +looks like about three or four pages, typewritten pages, I will read it +into the record. + +It will tell the story why I came to Dallas, exactly what I and several +of my associates wished to accomplish. + +I will name them where necessary and when I am finished I will let this +stand as my complete testimony, period, finis, and if at any other time +the Commission wants to talk with me, they will have to subpena me and +at that time--I want to get it over once and for all. + +I am going to tell my story now as to why I did things I have done, how +it came about, how the ad happened to fit into this pattern, and it +will be all very simple and logical. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Go ahead. You understand that when I say to go ahead I +don't mean that we will not be asking further questions, but you are +certainly welcome to put this in. + +Mr. WEISSMAN. I understand. Our preparation to come to Dallas was made +approximately---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me 1 second, Mr. Weissman. I want you to be very +sure that before you enter this statement in the record you shouldn't +consult an attorney? + +(Witness indicates.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are gesturing "no"? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. I am gesturing "No"; that is right. About 3 years ago +in Munich, Germany, while I was in the service, I and several friends +joined or formed a conservative political organization, dedicated to a +conservative philosophy, and I am going to read what you might call the +constitution or the aims of that organization. + +This was originally written by Larry Schmidt, who originally founded +the organization, which is known as CUSA, or Conservatism, U.S.A., and +this particular copy was prepared for the recruitment of new members +and what was expected of them. + +It also applies to the members of what we call ourselves, the council. +The council originally consisted of myself, of Larry Schmidt, of Bill +Burley, of a Larry Jones, who is no longer associated in any way with +us, of Norman Baker, who is no longer associated in any way with us, +James Mosley, who is no longer associated in any way with us. + +How was CUSA organized? CUSA, with its headquarters in Dallas, No. 5417 +Louis Street, is broken down into two branches. The stateside branch, +which was headed by Larry Schmidt, and the overseas branch, which was +headed by myself. + +Although both presently function separately from each other, they both +have the same organization, etc. + +On August 1, 1963, the overseas branch will discontinue being a +separate branch and will become completely subsidiary to the main +stateside branch. + +CUSA is set up similar to the Ford Motor Co. and its dependent, the +Ford Foundation. + +Ford Motor Co. of CUSA is American Businesses, Inc. or AMBUS. AMBUS +will be a private profitmaking corporation which finances its own +Ford Foundation, which is Conservatism, USA, a nonprofit, nonpartisan +conservative political foundation with the goals outlined above. + +The owners of AMBUS are the same as the five partners who are the +board chairmen of CUSA, the partners I mentioned before. All positions +in AMBUS and CUSA are appointed by the ETC or the executive in the +council, which again are the five members of that which has been +mentioned. + +Every member of CUSA and AMBUS who works for either or both of AMBUS +and CUSA full time shall be paid at a salary at least equivalent to +that paid a man in a similar position in industry or politics. + +In most cases AMBUS and CUSA will pay its people higher salaries. + +CUSA is broken down into three divisions: the political analysis +division, the recruitment and fund solicitation division, and the +foreign affairs division. + +AMBUS is divided into two divisions: the business management division +and the public relations division. + +AMBUS' two divisions fully support the activities of CUSA. Each +division has its own organizational setup and subsidiary sections and +officers to carry out its functions. + +For a copy of this, ask the chief of your particular branch--that is +pertaining to a new member. He will be happy to show it to you. For +detailed information on the operations of any particular division, ask +the chief of the division in question. + +Geographically CUSA is broken down into six regions. These are the +eastern, northern, southern, southwestern, midwestern, and western +regions. + +Each region has several States under its jurisdiction. + +The headquarters of each region are as follows: eastern, New York City; +northern, Chicago; southern, Atlanta; southwestern, Dallas; midwestern, +Wichita; western, Los Angeles. + +These regional headquarters come directly under CUSA's Dallas +home headquarters. Each State within the region also has its CUSA +headquarters. In each case the headquarters is located in the capital +of each State. + +The State headquarters come directly under the regional headquarters +in which they are located. Each State in turn is broken down into +districts with several counties comprising a district. + +Most States are broken down into four or five districts. These +district headquarters come directly under the State headquarters and +the breakdowns go along as I have mentioned, and it gets smaller and +smaller as the areas get smaller. + +Both AMBUS and CUSA will have staffs in each of the regional State +district and city headquarters. These will be full-time salaried +employees. + +How does CUSA expect to gain its goals? CUSA is convinced it can induce +all other conservative organizations to join it, especially if CUSA has +induced a large number, that more and more will want to jump on its +bandwagon. + +For those organizations that refuse to join, CUSA will bring pressures +to bear to end their resistance. + +CUSA will also work closely with conservatives in the Republican and +Democratic parties. + +Among CUSA's members are some of the finest salesmen around, men who +know how to convince, how to sell, how to persuade: CUSA intends +to work toward monopolization of the money available for rightwing +organizations, thus forcing any organizations to come into the CUSA +fold. + +CUSA will use any method, so long as it is legal and honorable, to +attain its goal. A timetable has been set up to guide CUSA's actions, +when each project has to be completed, and places these projects in +proper timetable sequence. + +What will happen to CUSA after it reaches its goals? CUSA shall +continue to aid the conservative cause and keep our Government +conservative. So long as there is a U.S.A. there shall be a CUSA. + +Can I make a career of CUSA? Most definitely. CUSA and AMBUS are big +business. Think of CUSA as being the same as a political party like the +Democratic or Republican. Even if it isn't actually a third party, it +shall function as one. However, if you desire and have the necessary +qualifications, CUSA will even run an individual for a political office +if it feels you can win. + +AMBUS needs good business minds and CUSA needs aggressive political +minds. + +Above all, CUSA-AMBUS needs salesmen, public speakers, writers, +debaters, analysts. Men who think like men of action and act like men +of thought. + +But CUSA also needs background men, men willing to stay out of the +public eye and work quietly to do the planning, thinking, creating, +formalizing, and other things in a great cause. + +CUSA-AMBUS has established regular wage scales along the line of the +civil service, GS-4 to GS-18. + +Just what is a conservative, anyway? A conservative is a person who +looks at a man or a woman as an individual and respects him or her as +a unique human being rather than just a face in the crowd; a member +of the mass who believes in individual initiative above collective +charity, yet accepts charity where the individual cannot provide +for himself; who believes the Government should be supported by the +people, not the people supported by the Government; who believes +Government should be restricted to those areas of concern outlined in +the Constitution of the United States of America, leaving the citizen +free to pursue life, liberty and happiness without the overburdens +of excessive taxation that restrict such pursuits; who believes that +every effort should be made by individuals to provide for themselves +first and when that can't be done, help by local, State, or private +charitable organizations rather than by Federal Government aid +comprised of general taxation; who believes that the Federal Government +should not compete with private enterprise or interfere with the rights +of the States as outlined in the Constitution; who believes that the +best Government is the Government which governs least; who believes +that the best interests of the American people should be served by its +Government first before the peoples of other countries, yet believes we +Americans must help the needy peoples of other countries; who believes +the best interests of the U.S.A. should first be served by our Federal +Government before the needs of other nations are looked into, yet that +we should aid needy nations where aid is justified and deserved, and in +the best interests of our country; who believes that the American form +of republican government, a government of the people, for the people, +by the people, with rule by law and constitution, is the only way of +government and way of life for Americans; who believes that although +a government and system of law and rule and economics isn't perfect, +it is the best one ever attempted by mankind in its long history; who +believes that private enterprise and capitalism is the whole basis of +our way of life and the reason of our way of life--and the reason our +way of life is so richly endowed; who believes that communism is the +greatest threat to the existence and freedom of America and must be +completely defeated; who believes there can be no peace without victory +over communism; who believes that the true revolutionary political +system and the true revolution of mankind is the American democracy and +democratic and political system; that the enslavement of man embodied +in communism is as old as mankind itself, and therefore there is +nothing revolutionary about it, even though it has a modern name and +foundation and is certainly no good, indeed fatal, to mankind. + +Is CUSA identified with any other organization or society? CUSA is +associated with no organization or group, be it political, economic, +social, fraternal, or religious. CUSA is committed to none, either. + +I can interject a footnote of my own at this point. At council sessions +we decided to use whatever vehicles were necessary in the way of other +organizations to get CUSA off the ground and at the same time keep the +name CUSA secret among ourselves, as it was our organization, you might +say; no one of the other organizations that we became involved with +knew anything about the existence of CUSA or what we had planned to do +with it. They did not know, the individuals that we were concerned with +did not know, that in many cases, as a matter of fact, we were using +them merely as a vehicle to further the interest of CUSA. + +Just who does CUSA hope to elect President? + +I want to reiterate that this was prepared in late 1961 or very early +1962. + +CUSA considers Senator Barry Goldwater (Republican, Arizona) as +Mr. Conservative, U.S.A., and wholeheartedly endorses him for the +Presidency, although CUSA is not committed to Mr. Goldwater in any way. +However, it is felt that he is by far the most outstanding conservative +politician and spokesman in the country. + +How does CUSA feel about the so-called radical rightwing? CUSA has +proof that many so-called radical organizations are not really +radical or at least as radical as the enemies or opposition of these +organizations would have the public believe. + +CUSA loathes extremism of the right, typified by the American Nazi +Party, as much as it does the extremism of the left, exemplified by the +Communist Party in the U.S.A. + +CUSA does not believe, however, that an American can be too radical or +extreme in his love or patriotism for his country. + +CUSA endorses Americanism, love of country, and patriotism, even if it +does not always agree with what some citizens believe is wrong with +our country, who is to blame for our faults and our solution to our +problems. + +CUSA has faith in and believes in many rightwing organizations and +their endeavors, although it does not always agree with everything they +say or do, the words or actions of their leaders. + +On the other hand, CUSA does not condemn a patriot who, in the heat +of anger or frustration, says things which are irresponsible and not +honestly meant. On the other hand, CUSA cannot subscribe to continued +irresponsibility on the part of organizations, its leaders or +membership. + +This is one reason, for example, recently in Dallas, we decided not to +become, at least as far as we knew, to become involved with anybody +associated or doing business with General Walker, as an example. We +made it a point to try to stay clear of that. + +How does CUSA feel about communism? CUSA intends to do everything +it can to destroy communism. CUSA is against any philosophy, any +organization, any group, any individual which threatens the freedom, +way of life, or congressional government of the United States. + +CUSA is against any tyranny, whatever its skin or title; against +anything indecent, unlawful, or harmful to man. + +Can anyone join CUSA? Any citizen of the United States who believes in +what CUSA is trying to do and who is not a demagog or dishonest, may +join CUSA regardless of race, religion, creed, or ethnic origin. CUSA +does not believe that patriotism is contingent upon skin, color, or +religion or family background. + +Let me say again that this was prepared in 1961, and in its essence has +been followed through to the--up until the 22d of November 1963, and +this, I think, would give some reasons or give you several answers as +to why the ad was placed, why it read as it did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That completes the statement? + +Mr. WEISSMAN. That completes my statement. + +Mr. EISENBERG. OK; then we will stand adjourned. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WARREN ALLEN REYNOLDS + +The testimony of Warren Allen Reynolds was taken at 3:35 p.m., on July +22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an +attorney on the staff of the President's Commission to investigate the +assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your +testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by +President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony, you +are entitled to have an attorney present at this hearing. You are +also entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled +to exercise whatever rights and privileges, as far as not answering +questions are concerned, as are afforded to you under the Constitution +and laws of the United States. I assume that you do not wish to have an +attorney present, since you don't have one here. Most of the witnesses +do not have. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Warren Allen Reynolds. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. 8707 Mosswood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, Mr. Reynolds? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. June 22, 1935. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; Reynolds Motor Co. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of company is that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. It is a used-car lot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is operated by you and by your brother; is that +correct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. It is operated by my brother, and I am an employee there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not an owner of the corporation? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are employed by your brother? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us briefly what your educational +background is? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. High school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from high school here in Dallas? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which school? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Forest Avenue High School. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is this Reynolds Motor Co. located? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. 500 East Jefferson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How far is that from the corner of 10th and Patton? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. One block. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at the used-car lot on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at about, say, after the hour of 12 +o'clock noon in the afternoon? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you saw; will you, please? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. OK; our office is up high where I can have a pretty +good view of what was going on. I heard the shots and, when I heard +the shots, I went out on this front porch which is, like I say, high, +and I saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, +swinging it just like he was running. He turned the corner of Patton +and Jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, +walking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I really have no idea, to be honest with you. I would say +four or five or six. I just would have no idea. I heard one, and then I +heard a succession of some more, and I didn't see the officer get shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Very good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to that time, you were questioned by the +Dallas Police Department, were you not? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department never talked to you about +the man that you saw going down the street? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Now, they talked to me much later, you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. OK; let me put it this way: When is the first time that +anybody from any law-enforcement agency, and I mean by that, the FBI, +Secret Service, Dallas Police Department, Dallas County sheriff's +office; you pick it. When is the first time that they ever talked to +you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. January 21. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the first time they ever talked to you about what +you saw on that day? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you never in any way identified this man in the police +department or any other authority, either in November or in December of +1963; is that correct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I sure didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it can be in no way said that you "fingered" the man +who was running down the street, and identified him as the man who was +going around and putting the gun in his pocket? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. It can be said I didn't talk to the authorities. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything about it to anybody else? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify this man in your own mind? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did identify him as Lee Harvey Oswald in your own +mind? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no question about it? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show +you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you +if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of +November as you have already told us. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You later identified that man as Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. In my mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mind, that is what I mean. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw his picture in the newspaper and on +television? Is that right? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; unless you have somebody that looks an awful lot +like him there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you an exhibit that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit +No. 453-C and ask you if that is the same man, in your opinion? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were in no way, if I understand it correctly then, +properly identified as anyone who had told the authorities that this +man that was going down the street was the same man as Lee Harvey +Oswald, is that correct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, yes and no. When it happened, and after I seen--and +you probably know what I did--after I saw the man on the corner of +Patton and Jefferson, I followed him up the street behind the service +station and lost him. I went back there and looked up and down the +alley and didn't see him, and looked through the cars and still didn't +see him. + +Then the police got there, and they took my name. While they were +taking my name, some television camera got me, and I was on television, +I am sure nationwide. Then some man that I worked with wanted to be big +time, I guess, so he called some radio station and told them what I had +done, and they recorded that and ran it over and over and over again +over the radio station. And other than that, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, what was it that they said you had done? All you +had done was try to follow this man and he got away from you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. And he got away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went back and you looked around for him around +the car lot in the area and you weren't able to find him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I looked through the parking lot for him after. See, when +he went behind the service station, I was right across the street, +and when he ducked behind, I ran across the street and asked this man +which way he went, and they told me the man had gone to the back. And I +ran back there and looked up and down the alley right then and didn't +see him, and I looked under the cars, and I assumed that he was still +hiding there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the parking lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Even to this day I assume that he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was this parking lot located now? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. It would be at the back of the Texaco station that is on +the corner of Crawford and Jefferson where they found his coat. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They found his coat in the parking lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. They found his coat there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that he had apparently gone through the parking lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And gone down the alley or something back to Jefferson +Street? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. When the police got there, and they were all there, +I was trying to assure them that he was still there close. This was all +a bunch of confusion. They didn't know what was going on. And they got +word that he was down at a library which was about 3 blocks down the +street on the opposite side of the street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Down Jefferson? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Down Jefferson. And every one of them left to go there. +So when they left, well, I did too, and I didn't know this man had shot +a policeman. I wouldn't probably be near as brave if I had known that. +The next time, I guarantee, I won't be as brave. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; I can't say that I blame you, although we don't know +there is any connection. But we would certainly like to find it, if +there is. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. There is no connection that you can prove now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that a little bit at a time. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Okay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you were on television, what was shown is that you +were talking to the policeman? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. They were taking my name. No name was shown, was +mentioned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They were just taking down your name? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Just my name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When it was told on the radio about your involvement in +it, was it also made clear that you had not, in fact, directed--let me +ask the question this way. Was it ever stated either on the television +or the radio that you had directed the police to the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Not the direction. In the general direction, but not to +the theatre. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were looking for this man who later turned +out to be Oswald, in this parking lot which was some distance from the +Texas Theatre at that point? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw Oswald continue on down the street--on +down Jefferson or go in the Texas Theatre, and you never told the +police that he had gone in that direction, did you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I told the police he was going in that direction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was going--you told the police he went into the +parking lot, or what did you tell him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That he was going west. I told them that he was going +west, and I had assumed that he just cut through the parking lot and +kept going the general direction he was going in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't gotten to Jefferson by the time you had +seen him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. He was about almost half a block before he +got to Jefferson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he was heading toward Jefferson? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; he was heading toward Jefferson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after he got to Jefferson? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. When he got to Jefferson, that is when I followed +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he went which way? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Went down Jefferson, and then he went behind the station, +and that is when I lost him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He went around behind the station, and there was a +parking lot back there, is that right? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went back in the parking lot and you were looking for +him there, but you never saw him again after he ducked off Jefferson +into the parking lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Just on television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then according to the information that I have, on January +23, 1964, you were shot in the head by a bullet from a 22 caliber +rifle, is that correct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; right there [pointing to right temple]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the right side of your head? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; and it went to here [pointing to left ear]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances in which that +happened? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I know this man was waiting for 3-1/2 hours in a basement +where I work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In a car lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. In a car lot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the car lot? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. At the car lot, the Johnny Reynolds Co. And when I went +down to turn off the lights in this basement where he had taken the +light globe out of the room, I went in there more or less in the dark +to turn off the light. It is a switchboard, and when I walked up to it +and turned two switches, this man couldn't hardly have been over a foot +from me with the rifle, and shot me. + +When he shot me, I ran upstairs. I went around to the right about 20 +feet and got this towel to, of course, stop the blood, and when I +turned around to go call the police, I had assumed all the time that I +had been electrocuted for some silly reason, never dreaming I had been +shot. But when I saw the man run off, I figured right then I must have +been shot, so I ran on in and called the police. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see the man run off? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. When I ran upstairs and ran around to the right to get +this towel, and he came up out of the basement. I saw him and two more +people saw him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You then got the towel. Did you call the police? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I was able to call the police. Then I laid down just +for a few minutes, and the ambulance got there and carried me to the +hospital, and by some miracle, I survived, very much a miracle. The +police got the call at 9:19 p.m. in the evening of January 23. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now were you able to identify the individual who ran up +out of the basement? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea who it was? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of fellow did he look like? Did you get a +physical description of him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; it was just a blur to me. It was just a blur, but the +people that saw him said he was around 5 foot 4, weight around 130 or +140 pounds, and was either Spanish or Cuban or Indian or something like +that; not Negro. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a Negro, but he was of a foreign extraction or +foreign appearing, or dark colored? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; dark colored, the way they described him. He had a +rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea as to why somebody might have wanted +to take a shot at you, why did they? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no proof. I would say it would be fair to think +that somebody shot me on account of they thought I knew something or +had some connection with Lee Oswald. It was definitely not people that +I would know of, and it hadn't been business. I am sure it wasn't in +business form. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do in the car lot? Are you engaged actually +in selling and trading automobiles? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; generally everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of any reason why one of your customers +wanted to take a shot at you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anybody else around the company that might +have been having trouble with anybody else that maybe you got shot by +mistake, or something like that? Is that possible? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. We ruled that out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You considered that possibility? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I have considered everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police conduct an investigation of this? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of this shooting? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, they came out with a suspect, didn't they? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. They came out with one, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that individual before he was picked up in +connection with this investigation? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you know him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I had known him for about 6 or 7 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of yours? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to know him? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Just in business. Our business with him was bad business. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In what sense? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, he was a troublemaker. But at no time did I think +he was the one that shot me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form an opinion on the question of whether +this was the man who shot you? In fact, we are talking about a man by +the name of Darrell Wayne Garner. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That was just my personal opinion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't able to see the man who shot you to say +whether it was Garner or whether it wasn't? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that Garner had been in the car lot on +January 20, 1964, trying to sell you an automobile, particularly a +1957 Oldsmobile for which he didn't have a title? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Not that I know of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your brother? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother is Johnny Reynolds? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He lives at 622 West Five Mile Parkway, is that correct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to know that on January 23 he +apparently told the Dallas Police Department that Garner had been in +the carlot on January 20 and tried to trade a 1957 Oldsmobile for which +he did not have a title, and became extremely upset when he, Johnny +Reynolds, wouldn't purchase the automobile from Garner? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I had to keep in mind that it is possible that that had +happened and I just didn't, I mean I have been through an awful lot +these 6 months, and it is possible that I have just missed it, but I +would say I would be a little bit surprised. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of person is Garner? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, to describe him as best I can, I heard that his +mother had $10 hidden one night and he wanted it and she wouldn't tell +him where it was, and he held a knife to her throat threatening to kill +her unless she did. He is just a complete troublemaker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he lives? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I heard he was in Las Vegas. In fact, I parked my car +at his father-in-law's. He runs a little parking lot right there down +the street, and it so happened I pulled into that parking lot when I +came here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you haven't seen him around recently? You don't know +where he is? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, Garner was released from the Dallas Police +Department after they conducted an investigation? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Into the possibility he might have been involved in the +shooting of you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any basis for your belief that the shot +at you was somehow connected with the assassination, other than pure +speculation or surmise on your part? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea as to who it might be other than the +fact, as you have previously explained before, it might be that since +your were associated in some way with Oswald's apprehension in the +Texas Theatre, that somebody wanted to get you for that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. A lot of people thought that I followed him all the way +to the Texas Theatre and pointed him out in the theatre. A lot of +people, just rumors, thought that, and a lot of people still think it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But in fact, there isn't any fact that you can point to +or tell me about that would connect up the assassination in any way +with the shooting of you on January 23? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I can't think of anything that could be a fact unless we +just found the man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For the purpose of our investigation, I mean if there +were any connection between your shooting on January 23 and Oswald's +arrest for the assassination, we want to know about it. That is +perfectly clear, is it not? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you if you have any facts that would tie it +up. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no facts. I just have my own beliefs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you do believe that there is some relation, do you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Nancy J. Mooney? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of her? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What have you heard? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I heard that she was with Garner the night that I got +shot. I heard that she took a lie detector test that helped free him. I +heard that a few days later she was caught fighting and they put her in +jail, and she hung herself. I heard that she formerly worked for Jack +Ruby as a stripper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told you that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I read it in Bob Considine's article. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only source of your information concerning +Nancy J. Mooney? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. The police told me that she had hung herself and that she +was the one that was with Garner. Everybody calls him "Dago." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police department tell you that she had worked +for Jack Ruby? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The only source of information that you have for that is +the article that Bob Considine wrote about this whole thing? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anything about Nancy J. Mooney, or do +you know anything about her other than that which you read in Bob +Considine's newspaper article? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I don't. Well, I know one thing, she was 16, and her +age, that is just what I have heard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. From the police department. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that she also used the name Betty MacDonald? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I didn't know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My information is also that she is 24, not 16. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Twenty-four? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that she tried to commit suicide prior +to the time she hung herself in the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or that she had four children that had been taken away +from her because of her conduct? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I see nothing in that whole story that Considine wrote +that would really come to me--be true. + +I mean, it is true in one sense, and it is fair story, but I don't see +any connection there, let's say. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Considine was trying to create an impression that some +girl had worked for Jack Ruby and was connected with Garner, and hung +herself in the police department? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you believe there is any connection in that respect? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you considered, when you thought about this problem, +that there are other people that actually went down to the police +station and viewed Oswald in lineups, and have testified in Washington +before this Commission, and received international publicity in +connection with the identification of Oswald as the murderer of Tippit +and that so far at any rate they have not been attacked in any way such +as you were? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you suggest to me why you were picked out to be shot +for this reason and not these other people? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. The ones that I know, I am the only aggressor in the +whole bunch. I am the only one that actually did something more than +just look. I actually did something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But that is the only distinction you can see between +yourself and those other people? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this question of the possible +relationship between your shooting and the assassination, with General +Walker? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say to him and what did he say to you about +this matter, if you remember. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Oh, I said to him basically the same thing that I have +said to you, and he said it could be and he thinks that it's strange +that I was shot. I think anybody would think it strange. But of course, +if you have ever talked to him, he wouldn't say yes or no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does General Walker know of any facts, so far as you +know, that would relate your shooting to the assassination? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has never expressed a firm opinion to you one way or +the other as to whether there was in fact, any connection between the +two, has he? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Let me just let him answer that when he talks to you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he is going to talk to us? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to him since we have invited him to come over and +talk to us? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you talked to General Walker? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Around noon today. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to him on the telephone? Or in person? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Telephone; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him your appearance before the +Commission here? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the general subject of your +conversation? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I just don't want to answer that, really. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Preceding your conversation at noon today, when was the +last time you talked to him before that, do you remember, approximately? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. About a week ago. Maybe 2 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you talked to him about this question +altogether? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no idea; five or six. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, General Walker sent a telegram to the +Commission suggesting that we take your testimony, did he not? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that he did? Did he tell you that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. May I go off the record? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. + +I think I have asked you all the questions I can think of, Mr. +Reynolds, at this point. But I do want to say this to you. If you +can think of anything else that you want the Commission to know in +connection with this whole thing, I want you to feel free to say what +it is right now. Or if you think there are any other facts that relate +to this that we haven't brought out. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I don't know of any. I think it should be investigated +what happened to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department did conduct an investigation +of the attack on you. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. But their investigation didn't go too much past Garner. +I mean they questioned a lot of people, but not anything of any +importance. They have a little old bullet. I believe that is the only +clue that they have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you think we +ought to know and I haven't already asked you about, we can terminate +the deposition at this point. + +Mr. REYNOLDS. I would like to say something that might be important. +About 3 weeks after I got out of the hospital, which would be around +the 20th of February, my little 10-year-old daughter--somebody tried to +pick her up, tried to get her in a car. + +Now, again, whether that has any connection or not, I don't know, but +it did happen, and it never had happened before nor after. But they +even offered her money. She was smart enough to run and get away. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any other indication that anybody has been +following you or that anybody is watching you or anything like that? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Someone unscrewed my light globe one night on the front +porch of my house, and someone definitely did it. + +Whether it was a jokester or kid, but I have a lamp over the light. +They had to take three screws loose to get to my light globe. They took +those off and unscrewed my light, and that is for sure. Now, that was +around the 20th of February, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was after you had gotten out of the hospital? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that would lead you to think +anybody has been looking for you or looking after you? + +Mr. REYNOLDS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Reynolds. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PRISCILLA MARY POST JOHNSON + +The testimony of Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, was taken at 10:25 a.m., +on July 25, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by +Messrs. W. David Slawson and Richard M. Mosk, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. + + +Mr. SLAWSON. I will swear you in if you will rise? Do you swear to tell +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Miss JOHNSON. I do. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, would you please state your full name and +address? + +Miss JOHNSON. My full name is Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, 48 Brattle +Street, Cambridge, Mass. + +Mr. SLAWSON. And would you state for the record your occupation or +activities now and also what they were in 1959 when you saw Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Miss JOHNSON. In 1959 I was a Moscow correspondent for the North +American Newspaper Alliance, and now I am a freelance writer on Soviet +affairs. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Have you been given a copy of the Executive order and the +joint resolution authorizing the creation of this Commission? + +Miss JOHNSON. I have. + +Mr. SLAWSON. And an opportunity to read them? + +Miss JOHNSON. I have. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson has been asked to testify this morning +because she in the course of her duties as a newspaper correspondent +in 1959 interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald on at least one occasion while +he was in Moscow, just after he had announced to the American Embassy +that he wanted to renounce his American citizenship and become a Soviet +citizen. She is going to describe to the best of her recollection, +with the help of her notes taken at the time, what went on during that +interview. Miss Johnson, first I think we will put in as exhibits the +various notes you have taken and articles you have written since that +time, about your interview with Mr. Oswald. I present you a copy, +marked Johnson Exhibit No. 1, of the notes you have said were taken at +that time, and I wonder if you would acknowledge that that is a true +copy. + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes; it is. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 1 was marked for +identification.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. I present this as Exhibit No. 1, introduce it in evidence +as Exhibit No. 1. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 1 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I have marked this as Exhibit No. 2. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 2 was marked for +identification.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. It purports to be a true copy of the article you wrote of +your interview with Mr. Oswald, and submitted on November 18, 1959. + +Miss JOHNSON. That is right. I submitted it to the Soviet censor on +November 18. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I submit this in evidence and mark it as Exhibit No. 2. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 2 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. MOSK. Miss Johnson, was anything censored? + +Miss JOHNSON. No. It would show on that. Nothing was censored. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I now show you a document marked Exhibit No. 3 which +purports to be a true copy of an article you wrote for the Boston Globe. + +Miss JOHNSON. I wrote it for the North American Newspaper Alliance. +That just happens to be one place that it appeared. It probably +appeared in other places too. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 3 was marked for +identification.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Then I will say your article---- + +Miss JOHNSON. For the North American Newspaper Alliance. + +Mr. SLAWSON. As it appeared in the---- + +Miss JOHNSON. As it appeared in the Boston Globe. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I believe that was on November 24, 1963? + +Miss JOHNSON. Sunday. November 24. It was filed on November 22. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Except for possible deletions of your complete article as +it was submitted, is that a true copy of your article? + +Miss JOHNSON. A true copy of my article. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I present this in evidence as Exhibit No. 3. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 3 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. I now have a document marked Exhibit No. 4 which is an +article from the--a copy of an article from the Christian Science +Monitor of November 25, 1963. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 4 was marked for +identification.) + +Miss JOHNSON. The interview was given November 23, and that is a true +copy of the interview as published in the Monitor. + +Mr. SLAWSON. For the record, Miss Johnson, that is an interview of you +by a correspondent working for the Christian Science Monitor; is that +correct? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I then introduce it in evidence as Exhibit No. 4. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 4 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I have here what purports to be a true copy +of a statement you gave to a representative of the U.S. Department of +State on December 5, 1963, and it has been marked Priscilla Johnson +Exhibit No. 5. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 5 was marked for +identification.) + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes; that is okay. That is a copy. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I then introduce in evidence this Exhibit No. 5. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 5 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Finally, I have here a document marked Priscilla Johnson +Exhibit No. 6, which purports to be a true copy of an article written +by you as published in Harper's magazine. + +Miss JOHNSON. April 1964. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Right; in the April 1964 issue. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 6 was marked for +identification.) + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. SLAWSON. That is a true copy? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I introduce as evidence, present this as Exhibit No. 6. + +(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 6 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, to begin the deposition, I would like you to +state, with the help of your notes or articles at any time you want to +refer to them, exactly when and where and how many times you saw Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Miss JOHNSON. May I have the calendar. I saw him, Lee Harvey Oswald, +on two occasions. First of all I had been at the American Embassy in +Moscow, and Mr. McVickar, the consul, had told me that a would-be +defector was staying at my hotel, that he had shown a reluctance to +talk with officials of the Embassy or with other correspondents, but +knowing my interest in kind of human interest stories, he thought that +I might want to see this man. This was on an afternoon in November, and +I think it must have been Monday, November 16, 1959, that Mr. McVickar +advised me to see Mr. Oswald. So I stopped by Mr. Oswald's room, which +was the floor below my own room in the Metropole Hotel. He lived on the +second floor. I asked him for an interview, and he agreed to come to my +room in the hotel that evening at an hour he named. I forgot what hour +it was--8 or 9. So the second occasion on which I saw him was when he +actually came that evening, and he stayed until the early hours of the +morning, although I don't remember what hour. So far as I know, those +were the only two occasions on which I saw him. + +Mr. SLAWSON. He was in the same hotel you were staying in? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. Could I interpolate a question here? + +Mr. SLAWSON. Certainly. + +Miss JOHNSON. Maybe it is out of line, but do you know whether he did +stay at that hotel the rest of the time or did he go and leave? You see +when I went back they had said he left. Had he actually gone to another +hotel or did he remain in that hotel all the time? + +Mr. SLAWSON. I believe that he was staying in the Hotel Metropole at +the time you saw him, and I think he stayed there---- + +Miss JOHNSON. The rest of the time? + +Mr. SLAWSON. The rest of the time. He had previously been in, I think, +the Hotel Berlin, but he had moved to the Metropole before you saw him. + +Miss JOHNSON. And they did move him out of the Berlin? + +Mr. SLAWSON. That is right. + +Miss JOHNSON. He stayed in the Metropole? + +Mr. SLAWSON. Stayed in the Metropole. + +Miss JOHNSON. So I was informed incorrectly when I was told he had gone +by the people at the hotel? + +Mr. SLAWSON. Do you remember when you were informed that he had gone? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. I think that it was Thursday, the 19th. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Could you state some of the details of that, how that came +about that you were so informed? + +Miss JOHNSON. Sure. Well, I wrote the story about him. I must have +filed it on the 18th, but I don't think it was in connection with the +story but with rather the fact that I had been told by him that he +thought he would leave the hotel at the end of the week. So as soon +as I had written the story and wasn't too busy in other ways, I went +to the hotel. The woman who sat on his floor, the second floor, and I +think it was the 19th, a Thursday, I asked if Mr. Oswald was there, +because I wanted to catch him before he left. I expected he would leave +the 20th. And because I kind of wanted to keep in contact with him, for +his sake. And the woman who was sitting on the second floor--I don't +know what you call her--who gave the keys out, just threw up her hands +and said, "He is gone." So I asked her when he had gone, and she said +she didn't know. So I assumed I had been informed correctly, and didn't +try to get in touch with him again. And he had told me that he would +let me know before he left for good, and he didn't either. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Let us call a recess for a minute here, so that I can look +for some records on Oswald's stay at the Hotel Metropole. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, in connection with your statement that you +had returned to see Oswald and were told by a woman employee of the +hotel on the second floor that he had left at a time which she did not +know, I have here a copy of a letter Oswald wrote his brother Robert +Oswald dated November 26, 1959 (Commission Exhibit No. 295). At the +bottom of the letter he gives his address as "Hotel Metropole, Room +201, Moscow," with the marking, "(New Room)." + +Miss JOHNSON. His room when I saw him was, I think it was room 225. It +was down a corridor to the right. My room was 319, on the next floor. +You turned just a little to the left to get to it. His was about 225 or +something like that. So he had probably been moved to a cheaper room. +My room would probably have had the same rent as his--$3 a day--but +later his was maybe a little bit less. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I see. And would the woman employee of the hotel who told +you that Mr. Oswald had gone have had charge only of the old corridor +and not the corridor with room 201 in it? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; I think she would have had charge of his new room +too, but he would have entered it possibly from the other side of the +landing. I rather forget where the 01 was, but he might have entered it +rather than from her desk turning right and then going down a corridor +and then turning left. He might have taken his key from her and gone +off to the left from her desk and from the elevator. She would have +had charge of his room, but she might have been on duty for the first +time since he moved, and only been aware that he had left--she might +not have been trying to mislead me. It might have been her first day on +duty since he switched his room, and she might have seen he wasn't in +225 and not realized that he was on the same floor but in another room. + +I think the key thing is they probably gave him a very inexpensive +room, since they were paying or since he was very poor. They perhaps +accommodated him in allowing him to switch rooms. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You mentioned a minute ago that he might have taken +his key from her. You mean by that that ordinarily--or rather, +frequently--a hotel guest would leave his key with the woman on his +floor, but that it was possible to carry the key with you so that you +would not have to pick it up from her? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; customarily you pick it up from her when you go to +your room and you leave it with her when you leave your room. It is +simply that she would have had a book in which she had written down the +room number of every guest, and I think each morning changes would be +recorded there. My guess is that she rather than consciously misleading +me--although she could have been told to say he was out, was gone--that +there is a very good chance that she simply had not taken in that he +was still there and in another room. + +He would have left his key though, and customarily she would have +always asked him for the key when he left. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did Oswald say something to you which would have led you +to believe that he was interested in getting a less expensive room at +the hotel? + +Miss JOHNSON. He struck me as notably reticent about his finances, +about his financial situation. He told me, truthfully or otherwise; +that he had been there for 10 days on Intourist. He said he was paying +the standard room and food rate, and said "I want to make it clear +they are not sponsoring me." I must have asked him about his financial +situation in some detail, because I thought it would give a clue as to +how they were handling him. If they had allowed him to go from the $30 +a day rate, that is the rate if you come Intourist which he said he was +on, if they allowed him to go from $30 to a lesser sum, since mine was +$3, that would indicate that they had an interest in him and they were +seeking to help him, whether he knew it or not. + +And he was defensive. He bristled on the point, and I assume that there +was more of an exchange of words than I took notes of, and that there +was something there. I just didn't know what it was, and I couldn't get +it out of him. + +But when you say he switched from 225 to 201, 225 was an outside room, +the kind that foreigners have, and it would probably be bugged, and it +would be for foreign guests coming in on Intourist. I don't remember +room 201, but the chances are it was an inside room. It might have been +very small. It might or might not have had a bath attached to it, and +the rate for it could have been as low as $1.50 a day. And they could +have been either accommodating him because of their interest in him, or +because they were simply responding to his financial situation while +pending a decision on his request to stay. + +Mr. SLAWSON. While we are on this subject--how much he was paying for +his hotel room and his finances generally--I am not clear whether you +were able to get some kind of indication out of him whether he was +paying the $30 a day or simply the lower, something like $3 a day. + +Miss JOHNSON. You see he said he had been there since 10 days--perhaps +what he said was since being there for 10 days on Intourist at $30 +a day "I have been paying the standard room and food rate." That is +probably how I should read my own notes. + +"I want to make it clear they are not sponsoring me." Your question is? + +Mr. SLAWSON. I am trying to establish what your impression was at the +time of how much he was paying for that hotel room. + +Miss JOHNSON. At the time I was very unclear what he was paying. I +think now he must have been paying $30 for the 10 days after his +arrival in October, and $3 a day after that until he left room 225. +What he was paying when he moved into room 201 I don't know. + +Mr. MOSK. That was $30 a day the first 10 days? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes, $300 for the first 10 days. Probably after that $3 a +day, and after that I don't know. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Are meals included in that $30 a day? + +Miss JOHNSON. Meals are included, but they wouldn't have been included +once he went off it. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I realize you can only do this very approximately but if +one were eating fairly inexpensively as Oswald probably did---- + +Miss JOHNSON. And as I did. + +Mr. SLAWSON. But on the other hand he probably did not know much about +the city of Moscow, and so could not hunt out places that might be +inexpensive. But how much per day do you think he could get along on +for meals? + +Miss JOHNSON. Perhaps I could just tell you from my own experience. +I had a one-burner stove and I bought some food at the Embassy +commissary, some from the hotel, and some in the stores around, and +my total living expenses probably didn't exceed $50 a week, and my +room would have been $21, and taxis would have been a little bit. So +probably I could have done it on $15, and he without the stove and +without the use of the commissary, but having probably modest tastes, +he could have done it for somewhere between $10 and $25 a week foodwise. + +He did tell me that he had only been on one expedition by himself to +this children's store where he got some food at the buffet, and if that +is an indication that he was taking all his meals at the Metropole, +then it would have cost him $25 to $30 a week for food at least. + +Mr. MOSK. He generally didn't eat breakfast, or he generally ate very +little for breakfast. Would this make a difference? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. MOSK. It might reduce it? + +Miss JOHNSON. Because breakfast, coffee alone was very cheap. We had +old rubles then, and I think it was--the figure in my mind is 2-1/2 +old rubles, which is 25 cents, for coffee in the room, and they didn't +charge you anything for room service. That would have been cheap, +and soup was very nourishing and that was cheap. I think he knew his +Intourist guide pretty well, and she may have taken him home and given +him food, or shown him cheap places to eat, so that when he said his +only expedition himself, that could mean that he took literally himself +but it could be he went other places with her, inexpensively. So he +could have done pretty well. He could have kept it pretty low. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I don't think that we established clearly +before when, or rather what day it was, when you spoke to John McVickar +and later spoke to Lee Harvey Oswald and had your interview with him. + +Miss JOHNSON. I believe I spoke to John McVickar either on Friday, +November 13, or Monday, November 16. My recollection is that it was +Monday, the 16th, and that on coming home from the Embassy, coming to +the Metropole, I went straight to Oswald's room, and therefore that +would have placed my original conversation with McVickar on the 16th, +my interview with Oswald probably on the 16th, my writing of the story +and my second conversation with McVickar on the 17th, and my filing +of the story on the 18th. But I could have seen Oswald as late as the +17th; Tuesday, the 17th. I could have seen Oswald as late as Tuesday, +the 17th. My interview was the 16th or the 17th. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Fine. Miss Johnson, I have here a copy of Commission +Exhibit No. 911, which is a memorandum for the files dated November +17, 1959, written by Mr. John A. McVickar of the American Embassy +in Moscow. This is the same John McVickar which you and I have been +discussing and to whom you spoke about Lee Harvey Oswald some time just +before you saw Mr. Oswald. + +I hand you a copy of Exhibit No. 911 and would like you to take some +time to read it and comment on your opinion of its accuracy, and make +any corrections you like. It purports to record a discussion that you +had with Mr. McVickar about Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes; firstly he says that I told him that I had seen +Oswald Sunday, May 15. He would have meant here Sunday, November 15. My +recollection is that it was a Monday night that I spoke with Oswald, +and it would therefore be Monday, November 16, not May. + +Mr. MOSK. 1959? + +Miss JOHNSON. 1959. Yes; I was struck by Oswald's reserve, and that +comes out in the memo. I had forgotten, but I recollect, and it is not +in my notes but I recollect that it is true that he said he had never +talked so long about himself to anybody, that about his use of words +struck me very much in conversation, that he sometimes pronounced a +particular word correctly and later pronounced it incorrectly, and that +simple words he sometimes mispronounced and hard ones he got right. + +Mr. MOSK. He was speaking in English? + +Miss JOHNSON. Oh, yes; his emphasis on legality, I had the impression +that unconsciously he wasn't 100-percent behind what he was doing, +that he wanted to get out of it and he left a loophole and that the +scapegoat was the Embassy. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I would like to ask a question on that. You think then +that he may have at least unconsciously had reservations right at that +time that he was not doing the right thing? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes; and I think this is implicit in the interview and +it corresponds with my recollection. It says here, "it was her opinion +that he might consciously or not have been trying to leave a loophole +for himself." + +I felt that in making such a scapegoat of the Embassy and of Mr. +Snyder, he was leaving himself a reason not to go back to the Embassy, +and hence not to really renounce his citizenship, and that impressed me +even then, and I think that didn't come out in my story and it doesn't +come out in my notes, but it does correspond with my recollection. + +I felt he was using his annoyance at the Embassy for other reasons. It +was a pretext, although I didn't think it was conscious. And I did bore +in on whether the Embassy had given him two versions, that is, whether +they had said they were too busy, or whether there was legal grounds +that they couldn't allow him to renounce citizenship until he had +assurance of Soviet citizenship. + +I was just interested in resolving the discrepancies, because I wanted +to clarify the nature of the loophole he was leaving himself, rather +really than to put the Embassy on the spot. And also I wanted to get +the Embassy's role straight because I didn't know how fully in my story +to put his annoyance at Snyder, the consul. I wanted to be clear on +what he was doing, before writing about his annoyance with Snyder. + +Mr. MOSK. Do you think, Miss Johnson, that he had any knowledge of the +law of expatriation? + +Miss JOHNSON. My recollection of him was that he was very legally +minded. He showed me his letters from the Embassy, his exchange of +letters from the Embassy, and that is in the notes, that he claimed +they were acting illegally. He showed me the text of these letters +and asked me what I thought of them. He said that he had been told on +Saturday, October 31, that is a Saturday, that they needed time to get +the papers together. + +Mr. MOSK. But do you think that he had ever read a book of statutes or +did he give you that impression, that somebody had told him about the +law or that he had read the law? + +Miss JOHNSON. He claimed that they were acting illegally, and I am not +at all sure that he didn't also indicate that he had a right, that he +knew he had a right. I am not sure that he didn't say that they had +told him at the Embassy that they wanted some assurance that he had +Soviet citizenship, but actually I believe that this was more what +I gathered from talking to Mr. Snyder and Mr. McVickar, that they +actually wanted to give him time to think. + +Somewhere I got the idea that he had also been told that they wanted +assurance that he had Soviet citizenship, before letting him renounce +American citizenship. Where I got the impression, I think it was from +him, but I am not sure. Yes; my guess about him is that he would feel +that he knew the law. Whether he would have seen it or been told it by +somebody that he thought knew the law, he would have informed himself +or thought he was informed about his legal rights. He seemed very stuck +on the importance of legality, legalism. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I am going to now back up a bit and ask you +some questions about the general atmosphere in Moscow, quite apart from +Lee Harvey Oswald. I make reference here to Exhibit No. 5, which we +introduced just a minute ago. On the first page of that exhibit, which +is your statement to the Department of State, you mention that most of +the defectors who came to Moscow while you were a correspondent there +came because of personal troubles they were having at home, rather than +reasons of ideology. + +You also bring up the fact that, rather your belief that, the Russians +had wanted one or two defectors from the U.S. exhibition of 1959 to +counter the negative propaganda they had been suffering from the +frequent defections of East bloc persons to the West. I wonder if you +would comment about both those points? First, if you could give us a +description of approximately how many American defectors you either +knew or had knowledge of at that time? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, I heard about most of those who came through, +though I didn't necessarily interview them. There had been one called +Webster--Richard Webster, I think--from the fair, and he had had a job +in Ohio. He worked at the fair. I don't know what he did. At the end +of the fair he asked to stay. That was, say, September or so of 1959. +We had defectors on the brain right then in Moscow, all of us, because +there had been a great deal of travel. The result was that a lot of +tourists were there; there were an unusually large number. That is to +say there had been three defectors. And Webster, now, when you did +go into it, it developed that he wasn't too happy with his wife and +he was interested in a waitress at the Hotel Ukraine. There had been +another one named Petrulli--Nicholas Petrulli. I have forgotten the +circumstances, but again they were personal, and I think he changed his +mind. I think my colleague, Mr. Korengold, supported him, really, while +he was thinking it over and deciding not to do it. + +That is as far as I can remember. Those were better known cases that I +didn't bother with because I couldn't compete with the agencies. And +the Oswald case I did see because Mr. McVickar said he was refusing to +talk to journalists. So I thought that it might be an exclusive, for +one thing, and he was right in my hotel, for another. But then, once +I got talking to him, I realized right away that he was different. At +least I found him interesting at the time. Afterward I thought he was +very interesting. + +I don't remember the Petrulli case; it was probably after the Oswald +case, and then there were a couple named Block--Morris Block and Mrs. +Block. I one day encountered Mrs. Block on the third floor of my hotel, +sitting talking with the woman who gave out the keys. She was quite +a forthcoming lady who talked far more about herself than she should +have, since they couldn't have wanted any publicity right then about +themselves. So I knew about the Blocks, too. + +Mr. MOSK. They also came back? + +Miss JOHNSON. They did come back this year, lately. But I didn't know +too much about the Blocks. There was something else about the Blocks. +Maybe they had some connection with the Soviet Union. Maybe he had +been there before. There was some reason about the Blocks. Anyway, I +couldn't get to interview them. That was the crux of the matter. So +that Oswald was the only--and there was something that made me think +the Blocks were not pure ideological, that they had some connections +with Russia as such, although I may be quite mistaken. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You mean possibly some business or personal connection +that would give them a tie? + +Miss JOHNSON. Right. + +Mr. SLAWSON. That would be different, quite apart from the ideology of +Communist Russia? + +Miss JOHNSON. I had the feeling that perhaps Mr. Block had been in the +Soviet Union before, perhaps in the service during war or that they +were of Russian ancestry, something of that kind, which took away from +any ideological features. + +Here Oswald was of an age that made him different right away. He was +only 20, and I had never heard of anybody of that age in the first +place, or that generation, taking an ideological interest to the point +where he would defect. His age made him extraordinary. + +Somebody of his generation reminded me right away of the 1930's, and I +lived in the hotel where I heard stories about the kind of defectors +who came in the 1930's; that is, they had been ideological. They had +come for reasons of race or sex; women desirous of emancipation, the +American women; Negroes desirous of thinking that here is a country +where Negroes were treated equally; people of leftist views; and among +the press corps I was aware that most of the Western press corps or +much of it were fellow traveling or Communist, and I read quite a bit +about them. + +Mr. MOSK. This is during the thirties? + +Mr. SLAWSON. During the 1930's? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. Malcolm Muggeridge, Eugene Lyons, Louis Fischer. And +I would gather these tales, because I was interested in them. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Do you want to add something to what you have previously +said? + +Miss JOHNSON. The ones we have are Malcolm Muggeridge, Eugene Lyons, +Louis Fischer, Walter Duranty. These were famous cases of people +who had a great interest in communism, and the Soviet Union in some +ways was the promised land to them. Mr. Lyons later titled a book +"Assignment in Utopia." Our press corps was not at all like that. We +were mostly there because Moscow was a great place to make a name and +a career, and we ranged from very interested, like me, to downright +disenchanted, you know. We were all pretty anti and skeptical, and we +were there because it was good for our careers rather than because we +were interested in communism or because we thought it was the promised +land, and that was always striking to me, because I often heard stories +about the thirtys, and I really thought it sounded very exciting +then. And he was the one person who seemed to have nineteen-thirtyish +reasons, unemployment in the United States, economic difficulty, racial +inequalities, interest in communism. So I thought sometime I would like +to write an article about how the kind of newspaper people and the kind +of defectors who really came now reflected what happened to the Soviet +Union compared to the thirtys, going back to Muggeridge's memoirs, +Lyons, Fischer's memoirs, Duranty's memoirs, and what other people had +said about Duranty to show what happened to the Soviet Union itself. It +didn't attract people now for ideological reasons. + +It was a bourgeois country like any other, and if it attracted people +from the West it was because they wanted to make it their career; it +had become a career for foreigners; or because they were personal +malcontents. + +They weren't getting along with their wives. It was the strangest kind +of reason. Oswald was the exception that proved the rule. And I had +made notes about him in the interim, when I thought of him, because of +this. He was the exception who proved the rule because he purported to +be acting for ideological reasons. + +Whenever I thought about him I thought: What is behind these professed +reasons? They are really emotional reasons in his case, too, and I +don't understand, although it is not obvious like a wife he is leaving, +they are still emotional reasons, and I don't know what is behind his +professed ideological reasons. And I can't guess. So he was the pin +really for the piece, and I couldn't guess them. If I had known he +was back in the States--I had thought about him, it seems to me, as +recently as 3 weeks before the assassination, and wondered, and the way +that the thought used to come to me was, "I wonder what ever happened +to that little Lee Oswald?" And had I known he was back--I thought he +would have been disenchanted, trapped in Russia, unable to get out--if +I had known he was back I probably would have tried to see him, write +him, go to see him. And if I had been able to figure out his reasons +and what happened to him, maybe I could have written that piece. + +Mr. MOSK. You had no indication that people could not leave the Soviet +Union? + +Miss JOHNSON. Oh, yes; I did. I had plenty of indication that they +couldn't leave, and I didn't assume for a second that he had ever left +or gotten out, and I wanted, if I could, to help him, warn him subtly +that he was going to be trapped. That is why I spent so long talking +to him. But I assumed that my room was wired, and I couldn't be obvious +about it, and I tried to do it by talking to him about economics. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Before we get into the actual interview you had with Mr. +Oswald, Miss Johnson, the other comment on the first page of Exhibit +No. 5 which you made was, and I quote: "The Russians had wanted one or +two defectors from the U.S. exhibition of 1959 to counter the negative +propaganda they had been suffering from the more or less frequent +defections of East-bloc persons to the West." Could you first identify +the exhibition you are referring to, and then give the basis for your +statement of what the Russians wanted? + +Miss JOHNSON. Right. I am speaking of the U.S. exhibition at Sokolniki +Park in Moscow that had been opened by Vice President Nixon in July of +1959, which ran for 6 weeks, which brought a great many Americans to +Moscow for periods, fairly long periods of time, in the capacity of +employees of the fair, setting up pavilions, setting up exhibits, some +guides. And I didn't know this, but I had the impression that they had +encouraged Webster to defect. + +I may be quite mistaken about that. Webster was an employee of +the fair, and I thought perhaps they wanted one. That was just an +assumption. Oswald, however, I again bored in quite a bit in my talk +with him as to whether they were encouraging him, and he said they were +neither encouraging or discouraging. He was very anxious as to whether +they were going to let him stay, and this did strike me as a little +unusual. I thought they would encourage it. And I didn't know whether +he was just a very anxious person, hence anxious, or whether they were +keeping him on tenterhooks, not for tactical reasons at all but because +of genuine doubts about having him. My only conclusion could be--it was +at the time--that Nikita Khrushchev just had been to see Eisenhower; +that they were not encouraging defections because of the political +atmosphere. I didn't realize that it might be anything personal about +Oswald. I assumed that it was the atmosphere. + +Mr. SLAWSON. When you first approached Oswald to ask him for an +interview--could you describe that? + +Miss JOHNSON. I knocked on his door, expecting to be let in. But I +wasn't let in. He came out. He came to the door and I stayed in the +hall. He stayed in the doorway as I recall it, and I asked him if he +would let me talk to him; expected he would say no, from what Mr. +McVickar had told me. But he said quite quickly yes, he would come, and +he said he would come to my room. He didn't invite me to his, and he +named an hour for that evening when he would come, and he did come that +evening just at the time he said, and he stayed. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Could you see into his room to see whether he was alone at +that time? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; I had the impression he was alone, but I didn't see +that anyone was there. Had somebody been sitting in his room, I think +I could have seen them. My guess is that his bed would have been out +of sight, but that the chairs in which anybody would have been sitting +with him might have been visible. But he may have had the door open +sufficiently little or at such an angle that I couldn't have seen had +he been alone. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did you know at the time that Miss Aline Mosby, a +newspaper reporter, I believe, for the Associated Press at that time---- + +Miss JOHNSON. For the United Press International. + +Mr. SLAWSON. United Press--had spoken to Oswald several days earlier? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; I had been told he wasn't talking to people, and I +hoped that he hadn't talked to anyone else. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did you ever learn from Oswald that he had spoken to Miss +Mosby earlier? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; I never heard from anyone until after November +the 22d, 1963, although Mr. McVickar had said that I could ask Mr. +Korengold about him. That was a tip that perhaps he had talked to +somebody at UPI, but I didn't want to tip the UPI that I was on to it +because I thought that would reinvigorate their efforts. So I never did +speak to anybody except Mr. McVickar. + +Mr. SLAWSON. While we are back on Mr. McVickar, I don't think we +established for the record absolutely clearly whether there was +anything in Exhibit No. 911 besides the date and the day which you felt +should be corrected? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; not at all. There is a postscript at the bottom +which is dated November 19. So far as I recall, this doesn't reflect +another conversation. It simply reflects an afterthought on the part of +Mr. McVickar, or conceivably a second conversation between me and Mr. +McVickar. He may have asked me more questions, and this may reflect a +little additional. + +Mr. SLAWSON. But it does not reflect a second conversation between you +and Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct? + +Miss JOHNSON. No. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I asked you if that was correct? + +Miss JOHNSON. It is correct. It does not reflect a second conversation +with Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Now then, we can get back to your interview with Lee +Harvey Oswald that evening. I have some questions here, but I want +you to feel free to interject any comments of your own at any time. +Of course we have as exhibits many of your previous statements and +articles reflecting your thinking about this before coming here today, +so we can both, I think, confine ourselves to elaborations or possible +corrections or discussions around the points that you have already set +down in the exhibits. The first thing I would like to bring up is a +point you touched upon briefly already in the exhibits, that Oswald +seemed to be greatly concerned with economics, and that you weren't, +and that consequently a great deal of the time in the interview was +taken up you might say with noncommunicative thought, or speech rather. +I wonder if you would define what you mean by economics, and elaborate +on that a little bit? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, since I liked Mr. Oswald, and since Mr. McVickar +had pointed out to me that there was a narrow line between my duty as a +correspondent and duty as an American, I hoped to establish some kind +of communication with him, although I was really trying to write a +story about him. I went outside my duty in the sense that I did try to +establish some kind of communication. I rather quickly perceived that +the best way to do this was to follow his lead and discuss economics. +That is what interested him more than anything. He wasn't interested +in talking about politics. He hadn't seen enough of Soviet society to +discuss it very concretely, nor was I in a position to point out to him +too much about its shortcomings, because I was a correspondent there, +because my room wasn't a really private place for conversation, and so +I tried really to point out its shortcomings in economic terms which +seemed to be the surest way of reaching him, and it was the subject on +which he had the most interest. + +My notes therefore don't really reflect a great deal of that part of +the conversation, because it meant nothing to me storywise at the time. + +It wasn't what I was going to write about. And I wasn't too interested +in it really. I was just trying to talk with him. And so when I talked +to him, what I said wasn't recorded in the notes, and the gist of his +reply was--of his replies were--that is about the exploitation of +the worker. I tried to point out to him that in the stage of primary +accumulation any society has to take more from the workers. They +have to be paid less than they really create. So there is poverty +and injustice everywhere. It was by way of trying to say to him that +things were not so good in the Soviet Union if he just would look, +because I wanted him to think before he did it. I assumed his act was +irrevocable and I was very sorry for him. So all this was couched in +economic language, which takes up time, and in which I wasn't really +too interested. I did feel that when he left that if I only understood +economics more--had only taken more interest in it when I studied it, +I had only studied it a bit more--that I could have answered him, +talked with him in terms that he could really respect, and that it +might have caused him to think more about his action and might even +have caused him to hesitate, and might have built up his respect for me +sufficiently that I could become someone whom he would have come back +to talk to and could have been some help to him. + +And I felt that I had failed him in the sense that I could not talk +to him in the one language that he really wanted to talk in and was +interested in. I did as much as I could along those lines, but I felt +that it had been inadequate in the situation in my own desire to help +him. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You used the term "economics." Do you mean by that, +economics in the sense of a Marxist versus Capitalist discussion, +terms like you used, "primary accumulation," "exploitation," and so on? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes, a little better than exploitation, more in primary +accumulation, and comparing the two systems. If I had been good at +comparing the two systems and using economic verbiage--I guess that +what I am saying is that if I had had long words about economics, been +able to throw them around with some authority, he would have respected +me. He did respect words, long words, language, and if I had seemed to +have a key to some occult science that he didn't know about but was +interested in, that this would have compelled his respect and might +have brought him back. But I had taken a course in Soviet economics at +Harvard where they had waived the requirement that you had studied the +American economic system, and I had done all right in the course, but +that really was where my economic training began and ended, and I just +barely sustained my interest through the course. + +I regreted very much after that conversation not having ever really +studied economics formally, at least not knowing the terms. + +I am so uninterested in it that if somebody tells me the words I forget +them. It was that bad with me. This was the only real occasion where I +was very sorry. + +Mr. SLAWSON. In Commission Exhibit No. 911, which is John McVickar's +memorandum to files about his conversation with you, he quotes you +as saying, "Miss Johnson remarked that although he used long words +and seemed in some ways well-read, he often used words incorrectly as +though he had learned them from a dictionary." + +Was that in reference to these economic discussions you had with Oswald? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. I think really he didn't use long words too +much about economics. I felt if I could have, I could have made an +impression. Words were important to him. And he was not qualified, mind +you, for a technical discussion of economics. + +It wasn't that he was qualified for it. If I had been, I felt I would +have had a value to him. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I wish you would elaborate on this: What kind of knowledge +you felt Lee Oswald had on economics, and his general ability to engage +in abstract argument and discussion. + +Miss JOHNSON. He liked to create the pretense, the impression that he +was attracted to abstract discussion and was capable of engaging in +it, and was drawn to it. But it was like pricking a balloon. I had +the feeling that if you really did engage him on this ground, you +very quickly would discover that he didn't have the capacity for a +logical sustained argument about an abstract point on economics or on +noneconomic, political matters or any matter, philosophical. Actually +the conversation kept coming back to him, and this was not only my +desire for an interview. It was the way he led it. He really talked +about himself the whole time. + +Whatever he was talking about was really Lee Oswald. He seemed to me +to have really zero capacity for a sustained abstract discussion on +economics or any other subject, and I didn't think he knew anything +about economics. + +In fact, if I had been a little smarter I would have just used the +economic words that I could have remembered, compelled his respect and +he wouldn't have known that I didn't know anything. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You said that you did not get into much political +discussion with him. + +Miss JOHNSON. No, we didn't. Partly I couldn't engage him directly on +the Soviet Union because I had a poor status there as a correspondent. +I worked for the weakest of the American agencies. I was always in +danger of being expelled with my visa expiring. Even then I was only on +a 1 month visa, and at that only because of the spirit of Camp David. I +had just barely gotten back in the country. + +I was just there on sufferance, and I really couldn't show my hand +politically, tell him anything I thought politically. He also didn't +seem interested in a pointed political discussion about either society. +He seemed to be able or willing to discuss in generalizations rather +than in direct terms, a comparison of the two societies or anything +like this. The point where I felt I could engage him was on economics, +and here we did go in for some comparisons of the two societies. That +was all. But politics we hardly discussed, except when he brought it +up. And he didn't bring it up in terms of people at all. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I wonder if you would search your memory +with the help of your notes and make any comments you could on what +contacts Lee Oswald had had with Soviet officials before you saw him, +any remarks he made or things you could read between the lines, and so +on. + +Miss JOHNSON. I was looking for contact between him and the secret +police, and I wanted to find out if there had been such contact, and +if so, how much and was he aware of it. And I came away impressed only +with the fact that he was secretive, and not at all certain what his +contacts had been, but assuming that there had been some, whether or +not he was aware of it. + +He was very reticent as to who he had seen, what agencies they +represented. I asked him whether he had told Intourist of his +intention, and his answer, which is on the record somewhere, I asked +him if they were encouraging him, and he said they treat it like a +legal formality. They don't encourage and don't discourage you. + +"They do of course warn you that it is not easy to be accepted as a +citizen of the Soviet Union." They were investigating the possibility +of his studying. + +I assumed that the police had told him he wasn't to see any of us, and +that they would tell him when he left the hotel at the end of the week +not to tell any one before he left. I asked him if Intourist knew about +his intentions and he refused to answer. + +He said he had had an interview with an official of the Soviet +Government a few days later. I assume that means after his arrival. But +"official of the Soviet Government" meant nothing and I didn't know +what agency that official represented. + +Also I had the impression, in fact he said, he hoped that his +experience as a radar operator would make him more desirable to them. +That was the only thing that really showed any lack of integrity in +a way about him, a negative thing. That is, he felt he had something +he could give them, something that would hurt his country in a way, +or could, and that was the one thing that was quite negative, that he +was holding out some kind of bait. That also indicated his extreme +naivete, because they have plenty of radar operators, and I doubted +that anything in that realm would be of use to them, although perhaps +he knew codes and things. + +I didn't know anything about that. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Could you elaborate a little bit on that radar point. Had +you been informed by the American Embassy at the time that he had told +Richard Snyder that he had already volunteered to the Soviet officials +that he had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps, and would give +the Russian Government any secrets he had possessed? + +Miss JOHNSON. I had no idea that he had told Snyder that, but he did +tell me--I got the impression, I am not sure that it is in the notes +or not, I certainly got the impression that he was using his radar +training as a come-on to them, hoped that that would make him of some +value to them, and I---- + +Mr. SLAWSON. This was something then that he must have volunteered to +you, because you would not have known to ask about it? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, again I am not very military minded, and I couldn't +have cared less, you know. But somehow along the line, if it is not in +my notes then it is a memory, then it is one of the things I didn't +write--well, one thing is you know I tend to write what I thought I +might use in the story. But I wasn't going to write a particularly +negative story about him. I wasn't going to write that he was using it +as a come-on so I might not have transcribed it just simply for that +reason, that it wasn't a part of my story. + +But it definitely was an impression that he--and it was from him, +certainly not from the Embassy, that he was using that as a come-on, +and I sure didn't like that. But it didn't occur to me he might have +military secrets. I just felt, well hell, he didn't have much as a +radar operator that they need, although even there I didn't know. + +Maybe there was some little twist in our radar technique that he might +know. It showed a lack of integrity in his personality, and that I +remembered. What he might or might not have to offer them I didn't know. + +About the other point, police interest, I assumed the police would +be the first people to be interested, and that whether he knew it or +not, he had talked to somebody from the police, that he was getting a +favorable room rate because of this interest. That is what I was after +the whole time. But I was struck only by his secretiveness in answer to +this, and I couldn't make out whether he had something to hide, whether +he didn't know really what the situation was, or whether he was simply +a very secretive person. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he tell you that he had this information which he +was, you might say, holding out as bait to the Soviets, or that he +had already given to the Soviet Government whatever expertise or +information he might have had as a radar operator? + +Miss JOHNSON. I think he told me--could you repeat your question? + +Mr. SLAWSON. Well, I will put it in a different way. I wonder whether +your memory is that Oswald was telling you that he had this information +which he had not yet given to the Soviet Government, and hoped to use +it as a means of convincing them to take him, or whether he had already +given it to them? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; he didn't tell me that he had any specific +information, that he offered it, that he had told them, or that he +would tell them. It was not that explicit. It was something like +if his experience as a radar operator would be of any use to them, +perhaps they would let him work as a radar operator. It was a little +more pointed than that, because I realized that he was going to make +available his radar experience, and that he did want to use it as a +come-on. + +It was a tiny bit, a little bit more pointed than that, but it was more +in that category. If anything he learned as a radar operator in the +Marines would be useful to them, he would give it to them, and he hoped +to continue his training, something like that. + +But it is not in my notes. It is memory, and it is the most negative +recollection of him I had. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he make any comments to you about having been +interviewed by any Soviet newspaper reporters or radio reporters or +anything of that type? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, of course that is an obvious question I ought to +have asked him, since a visiting foreigner very quickly does get that +kind of attention, but I didn't ask him. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You did, I think, according to the statements you have +made in these exhibits, ask him whether he had had any contacts with +American Communists or other Communists before he came to the Soviet +Union? + +Miss JOHNSON. I wasn't as suspicious about this as I had been on the +Soviet police angle, but he awakened my suspicions by his reticence. He +seemed to have something to hide, and once again I didn't know whether +he had something to hide or whether he was just very secretive, because +I asked him what books he had read, and he wouldn't say. Yet he was +certainly trying to give me the impression that he was a book-learned +boy, and this comes about page 11 of my notes. We were talking about +books, and we were talking about his contact with American Socialists +or Communists about the same time. + +So perhaps the way that the conversation led from one to the other gave +me the impression that he wasn't naming books because he didn't want +to hurt authors by suggesting that they had had anything to do--he was +taking full responsibility--that they had had anything to do with his +defection. But you would think he would have mentioned books because he +was giving the impression that he was a boy who paid a lot of attention +and he really read books. + +Then Socialists and Communists, I wasn't too suspicious although I +should have been. How did he get there? It wasn't easy at all for him +to do. I was more impressed, awed by it, than I was inquisitive about +where he might have been coached. + +But he awakened me to the point that I should be inquisitive because of +the very fact that he eluded, naming names, specified that he had no +contacts with American Communists, going out of his way to stress it. I +am sure that this part of our conversation was quite a bit longer than +came out in my notes. Again you know I had no idea that he was going to +ever be at all important. But it was he who put the emphasis on lack +of contacts with American Communists. He said American Socialists were +to be shunned by anybody with an interest in progressive ideology. I +probably brought them up rather than the Communists first, just as his +interest in Socialist literature. + +He answered, "Well, they were to be shunned." This was an emphatic +reply to what was probably a very vague, general, unemphatic question. +And he called them "a dormant flag-waving organization." + +So that woke me up and I asked him what about American Communists, +and he said--he was very emphatic here and again probably at more +length than was in the notes--that only through reading literature and +observing, but he wouldn't name what literature, American Communists +"(I never saw an American Communist)" he said, and I put that in +parentheses because I was that uninterested, really. I didn't make it +anything but a parenthetical observation, but only through reading did +he conclude it was best. In other words it was he who had tried to +emphasize that there had not been people involved. + +Retrospectively I see that this was important, that there may have been +people involved. + +Mr. SLAWSON. You say retrospectively you see that it was important. Do +you mean by that that you see now it was very important to him that he +establish to you that he had come only on his own? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, I saw then that it was important to him to +establish this to me. My story reflects whatever importance I gave it +at the time. But if I knew about him then a tenth of what I know now, +I would have tried to pin him down even more on it, that he might have +had coaching. + +It is also the sort of thing that comes out more clearly when +you look at your notes and you think about a person afterwards, +just-how-did-he-get-here kind of a thing. + +How does a boy like this who doesn't know his way around Moscow find +his way here? But at the time I was talking to him, I had less interest +really than in any help he may have had on the Soviet side. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Trying to divorce what you now know from what you knew +then, did he go into any detail at all about his life before he came to +Russia, his life in the Marine Corps particularly? + +Miss JOHNSON. The only details there were about his experience abroad. +He said literally nothing about his experience in the Marine Corps in +the United States except that he was studying Russian then. He did +speak about his experience in the Marine Corps abroad in Japan, in +the Philippines, and he indicated that he hated to be part of it, you +know, "oppressing power." He said he had been part of an invasion of +Indonesia in March 1958, that there was a Communist-inspired social +turnover, that they had to sit off the coast in ships with enough +ammunition to intervene. He was told that they might have had to go in +in Suez in 1956. + +He had been in Japan and the Philippines, and he hated to participate +in what he viewed as American imperialism, but details of his life in +the Marine Corps he didn't go into at all. + +Mr. SLAWSON. At that time did you yourself speak a fair amount of +Russian? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Were you able to judge his facility in that language? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; because our conversation was totally in English. It +was he who volunteered about his linguistic competence, and I think +that he said that while the Berlitz method had helped him learn to read +and write, and I queried "write" because writing is even harder than +speaking, it hadn't taught him to speak. And he indicated considerable +helplessness in the language. There are a number of things not in the +notes, such as perhaps this, about the language, there was more than is +in the notes. + +His helplessness about the city, the fact that he had only been on one +walk by himself is not in my notes, but it is in my story. There are a +few things like that that weren't in the notes, but that came across +very clearly. I had the feeling that he felt quite helpless in Russian, +not that he hadn't studied it but he simply didn't find the study was +useful in his day-to-day getting around the city. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Your article quotes Oswald as saying that he used Berlitz +methods in learning the language. Does your memory have anything to add +to that as to what exactly he might have meant? + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes. This was another point where he struck me as really +rather elusive about an innocent enough subject. I see on page 3, +he said, "I started learning Russian a year ago along with my other +preparations." + +Well, his saying "along with my other preparations" took my interest +at the time. What were they? Whether I tried to find out more about +what they were and failed and therefore that is not in the notes, but +he threw it out and he then didn't really deliver as far as detailing +them. He said, "I was able to teach myself to read and write from +Berlitz. I still have trouble speaking." + +So I said, "Well, how did you teach yourself to read and write from +Berlitz? Did you just get a textbook or did you go into some city +nearby for lessons at a school?" And he wouldn't answer, and that +struck me as one hell of a--I mean a strange thing to be elusive about. +Why, learning a language is just something you can tell somebody, so I +thought. + +So I said, "Practice or a teacher? Did you have a teacher or did you +just do it from practice?" And he wouldn't say. And then that got me +sufficiently curious that I asked him on what money he had come to the +Soviet Union. That was my next question. He did have a way of a little +bit piquing your curiosity and then failing to deliver. + +He liked to play cat and mouse with your curiosity. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Can you go into and describe what kind of assurances +Oswald said he had been given at that time about his ability to stay +indefinitely in the Soviet Union, or lack of assurances? + +Miss JOHNSON. This was a point on which his anxiety was patent, and he +said almost at the beginning of the interview, "They have confirmed the +fact that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union, be forced to leave +even if the Supreme Soviet refuses my request for Soviet citizenship." + +This came up repeatedly in the conversation, that he was anxious, that +he had been very anxious that he would be forced to go--what was your +question exactly again? + +Mr. SLAWSON. I think you are already addressing yourself to it. I am +interested in what Oswald told you about how sure he was at that time +that he would be permitted to stay in the Soviet Union. + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, he had by that time been told that he wouldn't have +to leave, and as it had obviously been very recently that he had been +told. It was obviously also an enormous relief to him but he hadn't +quite recovered from the anxiety he had felt before the assurance, +because it kept coming up again and again. In fact, he even---- + +Mr. SLAWSON. Could you state for the record what kept coming up again +and again? I mean, what did he tell you he had been told? + +Miss JOHNSON. The fact that he could stay in the Soviet Union as a +resident alien even if he did not receive Soviet citizenship, that +he wouldn't have to leave the country. It came up almost as a leit +motif of this conversation, his anxiety about staying, and his recent +reassurance by them that he could remain as a resident alien had not +altogether quelled the anxiety which was still alive, even though the +assurance was there. + +He was holding on to it and repeating it, you know, reiterating it as +though it gave him something to hold on to. In fact, he did give this +as a reason for his talking to me, that he no longer was afraid that by +talking to a foreigner he would be compromising his ability to stay. In +other words, all the time I was also curious really as to just what he +was. Was he a publicity seeker? Was he doing it for that reason? And so +he said he wouldn't have talked, that he would have given no statement +to the press, which was a rather pretentious way I guess of describing +his utterances up to that time, if the Embassy hadn't already released +it, and he wouldn't have said anything to anyone if they hadn't +released it. + +This was another reason for his being mad at the Embassy. Then he went +on to say as another reason for talking--he was already inconsistent +there--he would like to give his side of the story and give the people +of the United States something to think about. + +And then on top of that, that having been assured "I would not have to +return to the United States I assumed it would be safe for me to give +my side of the story," and at the time I underlined the word "safe." +Why did he think it would be unsafe, and "my side of the story"? He +is assuming that the Embassy is giving out a negative story about +him. He was paranoid. I mean he assumed that they were saying nasty +things about him and he wanted to set the record straight. This told me +something about him already at the beginning of the interview, that he +really was a little bit paranoid. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I have intentionally asked you of your impressions on this +point, without giving you some other information that we have, and I +now want to give that information to you and see whether in the light +of this, what is your interpretation of Oswald's attitude at that time. + +His historic diary, which is Commission Exhibit No. 24, has an entry +that on November 15 he interviewed Aline Mosby. That is incorrect, +probably a day late. It was probably the 14th or the 13th. On November +16, which he places as the day after he interviewed her, he has the +following entry: + +"A Russian official comes to my room, asks how I am, notifies me I can +remain in U.S.S.R. 'til some solution is found with what to do with me. +It is comforting news for me." + +Miss JOHNSON. That was the 16th. + +Mr. SLAWSON. But I say, do not take the dates correctly except that one +date comes after another, because he also placed the interview with +Mosby the 15th, which we know must have been at least as early as the +14th, and possibly as early as the 13th. + +Miss JOHNSON. In other words--yes; but that might help account for the +fullness. Either he is lying; i.e., really he is misled, or not lying +but confused about his reason for talking to me, and I think he was. + +Mr. SLAWSON. But I think that the significance of the entry is that the +promise that he could stay was very distinctly qualified. + +Miss JOHNSON. "Until some solution----" + +Mr. SLAWSON. "Is found what to do with me." + +Miss JOHNSON. That is interesting: "until some solution." The way he +put it to me was, and he put it more than once, it is in the notes, +"even if they refuse that, I won't have to leave." + +I imagine that his talking to me for so long, however, could be partly +because he did feel the heat was off him in some way. That might be one +reason. Another thing is that leads me to date my own interview the +17th, because for some reason I have the feeling that that information +has been conveyed to him on the day before I talked to him. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I don't think this is a basis for your dating your +interview on the 17th, because I think he has everything moved up a day +here. He puts the Mosby interview on the 15th which we know was on the +14th, so he probably puts the Russian officials coming to his room on +the 16th when it probably occurred on the 15th. + +Miss JOHNSON. That would be a Sunday. But Soviet officials do do things +on Sundays. They definitely do. But even so, it is more likely that +that happened on the 14th, Mosby on the 13th. That is possible, too. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. + +Miss JOHNSON. So they had just simply said until--in other words, he +is inexact for all his legalism. Either he is confused and inexact, or +he was misleading purposely. He may have misunderstood the official, +thought the official was promising more than he was. + +Mr. SLAWSON. It could be, except that this of course is his diary +entry, so he must have known what he was writing there, unless he wrote +it down much later. In other words, it is possible that he made the +entry in the diary at a much later time when he then realized that the +promise had been qualified, and was under the impression when he spoke +to you that he had received an unconditional promise. But the reason +I brought this up was whether with the insight that he may have known +when he spoke to you, that he had not quite received the unconditional +promise he purported to have received, does this give you any further +insight on him? I don't want you to just speculate here. + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, whether he viewed publicity as actually perhaps +helping his case, or whether enjoying the sense of importance that +publicity gave him, he was rationalizing it by thinking that he was +manipulating the situation to his advantage by having a little more +publicity. + +This is the only thing I wonder. Or possibly it was simply relief. He +did use the word "safe," that he felt it would be safe. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I think we have about got out all on that point we can. +Could you elaborate a little more on Oswald's attitude toward the +Embassy's reluctance to permit him to renounce his citizenship, on what +he felt the Embassy was doing here, and what your impression was what +the Embassy was doing? + +Miss JOHNSON. My impression from talking to John McVickar was that the +Embassy had tried to give him a cooling off period, to be sure he knew +what he was doing, but that it had also written him, informed him in +writing that he could renounce his citizenship and he had a perfect +right to come in and do so. The Embassy's behavior had been correct, +and on the side it was trying to be humane, giving him time to think +out what he was doing. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he show you the letter the Embassy had written him? + +Miss JOHNSON. He showed me two letters, and I think he asked me +something about them. I was very amused, because the Embassy was his +scapegoat, and he did keep bringing it up. But this contrasted with +really the correctness of the letters that he showed me from them, and +it contrasted with the rather kindly attitude that Mr. McVickar had. +And then on top of that he kept saying he shouldn't be too mad at them, +but he indicated that he was very very mad at them indeed. + +He said November 1 he had written a letter of protest to the Ambassador +protesting the way Snyder had carried out his duties, and had received +a letter back, and he then gave me, showed me the letter. But my +impression is that he showed me two letters. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection a little. I am now +on page 6 of your exhibit No. 5, in which you quote from a letter from +the State Department which he showed you. + +Miss JOHNSON. This is Mr. Thompson's letter. He did show it to me. I +remember now that he showed me the letter. + +Mr. SLAWSON. A letter from Mr. Thompson? + +Miss JOHNSON. From Ambassador Thompson. Well, I am not sure. He said he +wrote a letter of protest to the U.S. Ambassador, and he received this +letter back. But it may have been that the letter was signed by Mr. +Snyder. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. Do you think that your recollection of two letters +may be that one he wrote and the other he received, or do you +distinctly remember that he received two which he showed you? + +Miss JOHNSON. I thought he showed me two things, but the only one I +wrote anything about was the Embassy's reply, and either my memory +has miscarried and he only showed me one letter, or I simply don't +recollect what the other one was. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Is it correct that the Embassy reply you are referring to +is the one that is quoted on page 6? + +Miss JOHNSON. Right. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Of your exhibit No. 5? + +Miss JOHNSON. Right. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he show you any communications he had received from +his family or anybody else? + +Miss JOHNSON. No. He told me that--again there is a little more here +than is in the notes but it is partly a matter of impression. He was +avoiding hearing from them, and they called him, and he said it was to +ask him to come back, and he wouldn't answer. How did he know they were +asking him to come back if he didn't answer? He was full of those kinds +of contradictions, but that he was avoiding them. As far as I recollect +he didn't show me anything from his family. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he tell you why he was avoiding communications with +his family? + +Miss JOHNSON. No. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he---- + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, maybe he felt his resolve was shaky. I felt his +resolve was shaky, and maybe he felt so too, and he was afraid if he +talked to them they would talk him out of it. + +Mr. SLAWSON. In one of your exhibits you comment on his reply to one +of your questions, that if he was so adamant on wanting to renounce +his American citizenship, he could do so by going back to the Embassy, +and that he had been so informed in the letter. His reply to that, +according to your exhibits, was that they would simply give him the +same runaround again. Do you have anything to add to that? + +Miss JOHNSON. Well, it has come up. It is in the notes several times +here, and I may not catch it each time. But I think I have already +spoken for the record my impression that he was really not consistent +about the Embassy, or I might say just putting it a little more +strongly and editorially, he was not quite honest, because he claimed +he was so mad he wouldn't go back, yet he was so firm in his resolve as +a great big man, that he was going to give up his citizenship, you know. + +But I pointed out to him that this seemed to me to be pique, boyish +pique. Whether I actually said it, you know, I probably didn't quite, +but that is what I thought. He was indulging himself. If he was really +so resolved to give up his citizenship, then why let a little thing +like annoyance over his October the 31st interview stand in the way of +doing this, which he felt was an important principle and act? And I did +point out to him the discrepancies in a gentler way than I honestly +thought. The answers in my notes reflect his response to this, not the +way that I put it to him, that he wouldn't go back because of this and +that. + +He did show me the letter, but my impression is that he wanted to know +whether I thought that the letter was proper treatment. Showing it +to me was to me an indication of his very legal approach, legalistic +approach to things, and it seemed to me of course nothing exceptional +about the letter. You see there he knew what he could do, and he was +in light of that refusing to go to the Embassy. That seemed to me +very immature, and from the standpoint of his stated principles, very +inconsistent. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I just have one final question here. I would like to bring +together---- + +Miss JOHNSON. Excuse me, could I add something there? + +Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. + +Miss JOHNSON. And that really was one more thing that led me to think +that he was less than certain about his attempt to defect. Well, +leaving himself this loophole was it seemed to me important, it seemed +important at the time, and he knew he was doing it, because I pointed +it out to him. He knew he was doing it, and he got out of it by +whatever it was he said to me. I can't isolate all the comments in the +notes, but they are all there. He got out of it, but he knew he was +doing it. + +Mr. SLAWSON. But you felt that all these comments then were more +or less excuses made up in his own mind, either consciously or +unconsciously, that he was--excuses for not going back to the Embassy +to make this final step of dissolving his citizenship? + +Miss JOHNSON. And that behind what appeared to me to be boyish pique +lay something else. He was leaving himself a way out, and I was fully +aware of it at the time. + +Mr. SLAWSON. We previously have discussed how much he probably was +paying for his hotel room at various times, and for his meals. I bring +to your attention one of your statements in the exhibits, that he said +he had been living on Intourist vouchers for 10 days, and we have +already gone into what 10 days probably meant. Did he make any other +comments that would relate to how much money his attempt to defect was +costing him? + +Miss JOHNSON. Finance was certainly something I talked to him about, +and it was something he was notably elusive about, and again he said +he was paying the standard rate. "I want to make it clear they are not +sponsoring me." Naturally I wanted to know on what money he got there, +and it was in response to this that he told me the itinerary by which +he came, by which he said he came, that is from New Orleans to Le +Havre, to Helsinki. He gave me his route. + +Whether it was the true route I don't know, but he gave me what he said +was the route, and the method of transport. He said he left from New +Orleans September 19. I wasn't absolutely sure that was the date he +gave me, on a Friday by ship. Actually the 19th was a Saturday. And +he might have left on the 18th. That it took him 12 days to get to Le +Havre, that he booked a flight to Helsinki but you couldn't fly to +Helsinki from Le Havre. You would have to fly from Paris. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Actually he flew from London. He went from Le Havre to +London and then Helsinki. + +Miss JOHNSON. By the same ship? + +Mr. SLAWSON. No; by airplane I believe. Anyway he disembarked on the +ship at Le Havre, as he told you, then went from there to London I +believe by airplane, although I am not certain. But then he went by +airplane from London to Helsinki. + +Miss JOHNSON. Yes; actually he got his visa in London probably. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Well, I do know some of these facts, but I would like you +to go on the best of your recollection. + +Miss JOHNSON. He said nothing about London at all. I never was sure how +the hell he got to Helsinki, but he said he went by train from Helsinki +to Moscow, and he repeated that for 10 days he had been on those +vouchers. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Did he indicate to you anything about how he got his visa? + +Miss JOHNSON. No; not at all. I may well have asked him too. A question +and a nonreply, though, are not recorded in my notes, but I may well +have asked him. On the other hand I think I would have remembered if he +had said anything. If he just evaded the way he evaded a lot, I might +not have put it down, because evasion was really quite characteristic +of him. But of course I was curious where he got it, and how. And +I do have $30 written down here as the rate. You know there was a +businessman's rate of $12 a day at that time, and also the $30 rate I +am telling you is as of that time because it is now $35. But I do have +$30 written down, so I assumed that he specified that he was there at +the $30 rate those 10 days, not the $12. No; he said nothing about a +visa, and of course I was curious. + +Mr. SLAWSON. I have no more specific questions, Miss Johnson. If you +have anything at all to add, or any further comments you want to make, +please go ahead and do so. + +Miss JOHNSON. No; I don't. + +Mr. SLAWSON. Thank you very much for coming here. + +Miss JOHNSON. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ERIC ROGERS + +The testimony of Eric Rogers was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old +Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by +Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Eric Rogers, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified +as follows: + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers, I am an attorney on the staff of the +President's Commission. I think I met you one day. + +Mr. ROGERS. I remember you; yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to ask you a few questions about Oswald. I +am questioning you under authority granted to me by the Commission +under Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint +resolution of Congress, No. 137. + +You are entitled to have an attorney if you want to and you don't have +to answer any questions if you feel that they are incriminating. + +Mr. ROGERS. Well, I can't answer what I don't know. I will tell you +just what I told them, you see. That's all I saw. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers, am I correct in understanding that you lived +at 4907 Magazine Street during the period last summer when---- + +Mr. ROGERS. I did; a few months. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move there? + +Mr. ROGERS. It was around in the--in July, around July. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there? + +Mr. ROGERS. He was there for a short period of time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You lived right next door to Oswald? + +Mr. ROGERS. My apartment was in the front and my window was right +next--near his apartment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You met Oswald and came to know him? Did you ever meet +him? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; I never met him. He didn't bid the time to anyone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him or anything? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know what his name was? + +Mr. ROGERS. Just by mail coming in the box on the front. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to his wife? + +Mr. ROGERS. She spoke Russian. She did bid the time of day, that's all, +but he didn't. He wouldn't bid the time to no one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever have any arguments that you know of? + +Mr. ROGERS. Some spats, but in Russian, looked like. You know what I +mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Russian and you couldn't understand what they +were saying? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald have any visitors at his +apartment? + +Mr. ROGERS. He had no one. Had some kind of a dark fellow asked where +he lived. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be a Cuban? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes; Spanish type of person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that in August, do you remember? + +Mr. ROGERS. Around that time. I believe it was around that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you remember anybody else that visited Oswald at +his apartment? + +Mr. ROGERS. Probably at the time they had this--you know--Fair Play +for Cuba, something like that. I think they were radio interviewers, +I think. Looked like local people. Didn't look like--heard him saying +something about wanting to play on radio. That's all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any other ones? + +Mr. ROGERS. Not that I know of unless I was at work. I wasn't there all +the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was in the hospital part of this time, is that +correct? + +Mr. ROGERS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work at that time, sir? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; I wasn't working at that time. See, Mr. Liebeler, I am +on pension, you see. I am only allowed to make so much a year because +of the pension, you see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Did you ever see Oswald sitting on the front porch? + +Mr. ROGERS. Oh, yes; with books, reading. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read a lot? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any rifle or firearms of any type in his +possession at that time? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; I never. We did see one time some--the mailman brought +a big package in. I wouldn't say what it was, of course. I guess they +checked that through the mail. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? + +Mr. ROGERS. It was in the summer, some time before he left, somewhere +around that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald's apartment had a little porch in the front? + +Mr. ROGERS. Screened porch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It had blinds in it, too, that you could let down, did it +not? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been possible for him to have sat in +that porch and you couldn't see him very well from the street? + +Mr. ROGERS. He wouldn't discuss anything on the porch. He would go in +the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been possible to sit in that porch and drop +the blinds so that people couldn't see you? + +Mr. ROGERS. It could be possible. I don't know. I never--I seen him +sitting down there and go in and out, coming in and out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We talked to you previously out at the apartment, and +my recollection is that you told us that some time in September, I +believe, that a station wagon came and picked up Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. ROGERS. That was the time he left town. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. ROGERS. The station wagon was visible. I called my wife. I said +"Well, he must be leaving." They were packing all the things. Probably +left the next night or sometime like I told you, the following night +after. Had the two things in his hand and goggles on like he was +running out of there. I don't know what he was doing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about those goggles. Were they something like +sunglasses? Describe them. + +Mr. ROGERS. I don't know. I couldn't say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see what license plates the station wagon had on +it? + +Mr. ROGERS. No, Mr. Liebeler, I couldn't tell you on that. Kind of a +gray station wagon. He was putting the packing, everything in that +himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know when the station wagon left? + +Mr. ROGERS. Well, I told my wife--she said she might have left early in +the morning before we got up, with the lady. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that she might have left with the lady? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. Then he left that night or late afternoon. Went out in +a hurry. Left all the lights on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in the station wagon? Was there another lady? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the station wagon leave? + +Mr. ROGERS. We didn't see it leave, but it wasn't there when he left. +There was nobody else evidently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald at all after the station wagon left? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; I didn't see him until that night. He slipped out of +there. He was going out to catch the bus across the street. The bus +stop is right across the street from us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did see Oswald come out of the apartment in the +evening? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. We was sitting on the porch at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the +ladies in the station wagon? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was +the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the evening? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He ran across the street and got on the bus? + +Mr. ROGERS. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get on the bus at the bus stop? + +Mr. ROGERS. Bus stop on the corner right opposite. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the center of the city? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the bags that he had in his hand when he went +out? + +Mr. ROGERS. My wife seen some of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing pictures to witness). Let me show you some +pictures and see if these look like it. + +Mr. ROGERS (indicating). This middle one, I know that ain't the type +there. That's not the type. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture of a +bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you +if that looks like the bag. + +Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like one of the bags? + +Mr. ROGERS. That looks to me like it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). Now I show you a picture +which we will mark Rogers Exhibit No. 1, showing two views of a bag. +Does it look like the one Oswald had? + +Mr. ROGERS. You mean--he had two of them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many did he have? + +Mr. ROGERS. He had two of them in my estimation, each one in one hand. +They looked like these here to me, to my knowledge. I mean, yes. I +don't think it was this type [indicating]. I would say this type +[indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are pointing to No. A-1, which is a picture of +Commission Exhibit No. 126 and do you think he had two bags that looked +like "Commission Exhibit No. 126." Did he carry both in one hand? + +Mr. ROGERS. One in each hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to +Rogers Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. ROGERS. No, no. It was kind of daylight. You could see. You know +what I mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you sure that he didn't have one like Rogers +Exhibit No. 1? Is it a different size? + +Mr. ROGERS. It was--they both look like the same size, and they were +well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't +know what he had in them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So in your estimation, he had two bags like Exhibit 126? + +Mr. ROGERS. If I am not mistaken, they are the two bags that my wife +and I identified when they came over to the house, somebody from +Oklahoma. He was transferred down here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. An FBI agent? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They actually brought the bags over? + +Mr. ROGERS. They had the pictures like this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show you pictures like these two that I have got +here? + +Mr. ROGERS. Sure did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They had bags like Exhibit 126? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. This is the type. That's the green type of looking +luggage. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say again that he did not have a bag that looked like +Rogers Exhibit No. 1? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald leave as far as you can tell on the same +day that the station wagon left, or on the next day? + +Mr. ROGERS. Well, they packed that night and, yes; they left on the +same day, the following evening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They packed the station wagon on one day and the next day +you looked out and the station wagon was gone? + +Mr. ROGERS. He left that following evening. I figured he was moving. I +don't know. If he was moving, he was supposed to tell the landlord. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to the landlord about it? + +Mr. ROGERS. No; but she knew about it. He didn't talk to her. He didn't +talk to nobody. He would give you the money and wouldn't say nothing. +He was quiet himself, that's all. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I am going to show you a +picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if +you recognize anybody in that picture. + +Mr. ROGERS. Wait. Let me get my glasses on. I can see better this way. +[Examining picture.] No, Mr. Liebeler, I don't think. I don't think. +No; I don't think I know any one in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that +has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize +any individual that is in that picture. + +Mr. ROGERS. Well, maybe he did identify him, but I never saw this man. +No. That's when this happened? Mr. Garner did, but I didn't. No, I--if +he did come around, I wasn't there. If I did, I would tell you, you +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that +has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask you if you recognize +that man. + +Mr. ROGERS. No. I seen plenty people, but I don't know him either. If I +did, I would tell you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers. + +Mr. ROGERS. Under oath, I tell you just exactly what I tell you, the +same thing. As far as the boy is concerned, you know, he never spoke to +anybody. Go in and out, eat and clean. Didn't nobody knew his business. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He kept pretty much to himself? + +Mr. ROGERS. Yes. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES LEHRER + +The testimony of James Lehrer was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. LEHRER. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the +Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of +Congress, No. 137. Under the Commission's rules governing the taking of +testimony, you are entitled to 3 days' notice and to have an attorney +here if you want to, and you are entitled to the usual privileges and +rights concerning self incrimination and that sort of thing as far as +answering my questions are concerned. I know that you have not had 3 +days' notice of this, but I understand that you are here voluntarily +and that you are prepared to proceed without an attorney; is that +correct? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please state your name. + +Mr. LEHRER. James Lehrer [spelling], L-e-h-r-e-r. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? + +Mr. LEHRER. May 19, 1934, Wichita, Kans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. LEHRER. Dallas; 3709 West Beverly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline your educational background for us, +please? + +Mr. LEHRER. High school, graduate of Victoria College, University of +Missouri. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in at the university? + +Mr. LEHRER. Journalism. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed by the Dallas Times Herald? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked with them? + +Mr. LEHRER. Nearly 3 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your job over there? + +Mr. LEHRER. I am a reporter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you cover a specific beat? + +Mr. LEHRER. I cover the Federal beat, labor, and politics--some +politics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do before you went to work with the Dallas +Times Herald? + +Mr. LEHRER. I was with the Dallas Morning News about 2 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before that? + +Mr. LEHRER. I was in the Marine Corps. I went there directly from +school into the service. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to work for the Dallas Morning News? + +Mr. LEHRER. I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went to work for the Dallas Times Herald and you +are employed by them now? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have received information that you were in the office +of the Dallas Times Herald on the morning of November 28, 1963; is that +correct? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you got there and what you did +that morning and what you saw? + +Mr. LEHRER. Well, it was Thanksgiving and I got there about 7 or 7:30, +something like that, and I don't remember specifically any stories +that I worked on on that day. It was just a routine day, not a routine +day--a holiday is not routine, because you don't work the whole day on +a holiday, so I only worked until around noon that day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got to the office about 7 o'clock? + +Mr. LEHRER. About 7 or 7:30--something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Hunter Schmidt, Jr.? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is he also employed as a reporter by the Dallas Times +Herald? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he was at that time? + +Mr. LEHRER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him in the office that morning? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the fact that a story appeared in +the Dallas Times Herald on this day concerning a gunshop in Irving, +Tex., at which Oswald was supposed to have had some work done on a +rifle? + +Mr. LEHRER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of how that story came into the office of +the newspaper? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes; in a general way. The desk, or the city desk, which +consists of the city editor and the assistant city editor or the +rewrite staff--somewhere they got a tip that there was a fellow in +Irving who had mounted the sight or knew something about it. It was +given to Hunter to check out. I happened to be sitting over there. I +do not normally work physically on the city desk, but all of us had +been working on the assassination aspects and it had been a lot of my +responsibility in particular, because so much of it was on my beat at +that time, and somebody said they got this guy and they gave it to +Hunter to check out and I was sitting right next to Hunter and when he +checked it out--in other words--when he called. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do--do you remember? + +Mr. LEHRER. Well, he just--he was talking to somebody on the telephone +and he was given the checkout and he had the man's name before he +called and he called somebody on the phone and I was doing something +myself--I wasn't writing a story, but I was sitting there and he was +talking to this guy, talking to somebody on the telephone, let's put it +that way, and when he got through he said something about, "Yeah--this +is it; that's right." + +Or, it was words to that effect, and then I looked at his notes, you +know, and said, "That's a hell of a story," or something like that, and +about that time somebody said, "Don't talk about it, write it." So he +gave it to, I think it was--I'm not sure about this, but I think it was +in a general story of the assassination developments of that day, which +we were running every day, and I think a rewrite man may have taken the +notes and written the story. I don't recall seeing Hunter write the +story. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the man that Schmidt was talking +to? + +Mr. LEHRER. I can only assume it was Ryder. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What leads you to that assumption? + +Mr. LEHRER. Well, it was just circumstantially--I believe it was. I +mean, he was given this name and the information that this man is +supposed to have mounted the sight on Oswald's rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the name he was given was Dial Ryder; is that right? + +Mr. LEHRER. That's right; that's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he was told to check that story? + +Mr. LEHRER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he proceeded to do it? + +Mr. LEHRER. He proceeded to do it. He dialed a number and got +somebody on the line and started talking and when he got through, +he said, "That's right." I looked at his notes--I don't have a +specific recollection of what the notes said, but I remember that he +had some quotes there, I mean, he had some information in the notes +that verified the story, and at that time--one of the reasons I was +interested in it--I was working on the story we finally ran the next +day on the FBI looking for where Oswald might have possibly test +fired this rifle, so that was one of the reasons I was particularly +interested in it, because I wasn't coordinating our assassination +coverage, but I was vitally involved in it, I would say, at that time, +and I was working on this, and I think he gave the notes to a rewrite +man. I'm not sure, but I don't know what happened after that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you have the specific recollection that +Schmidt engaged in a conversation over the telephone for some period of +time at a time when he was supposed to be checking out this story of +the gunsmith in Irving? + +Mr. LEHRER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After this conversation was over, he indicated to you +that the story checked out? + +Mr. LEHRER. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently that day the story, in fact, appeared in the +newspaper, indicating that there was evidence to show that Oswald had +taken his rifle to this particular gunshop. + +Mr. LEHRER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this situation with Schmidt recently? + +Mr. LEHRER. No; actually, I talked to him about it briefly this morning. + +He was somewhat--he didn't recall who was sitting next to him and I +told him I had, because I didn't think there was any problem, and +I just mentioned that. Now, the FBI--one thing--as far as that's +concerned--and as far as the fact that somebody might think that Hunter +and I got together on this--the day the FBI got this, and apparently +it was sent down by the Commission who said, "Check this out"--that +Ryder apparently--there was some question about it--and the FBI came +up there and a guy by the name of--well, there were two agents from +Oklahoma City who were working a special on the assassination at that +time--just the assassination story. It was Petrakis and some other +guy--I don't remember the other guy's name, but they came up and talked +to Ken Smart. You see, there was no byline on the story and they said, +"Who wrote the story?" and Smart apparently said he didn't know and +they went back and looked in the files and that indicated who wrote +it and so Ken came over to me and showed me the story with Petrakis +and this other guy there, and he said, "Did you write the story?" And +I said, "No, Hunter Schmidt wrote the story"; that's how they found +out Hunter even wrote it--where he got the information was when I told +him and so then we talked about this thing briefly, you know, and Ken +said, "Apparently Ryder is saying that he didn't talk to anybody at +the time," and I told Smart and Petrakis and this other fellow here +that I was sitting right next to the fellow and that he was talking to +somebody and I assumed it was Ryder and then I hadn't even mentioned it +to Hunter, because Hunter was not in the office that day and Petrakis +finally got ahold of him at home on the phone, I believe, or talked to +him later and Hunter didn't even know until this morning. + +As I say, then Hunter told me that--it was you, I believe, that told +him that there was a witness who could verify that there was such a +conversation and he said, "Who is that, what are you talking about?" +And he said, "Why didn't you tell me before?" I said I didn't think +there would be any problem--I just mentioned it to Martha Jo in passing +here one day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say this morning Schmidt told you he had been over +here last night and he had been questioned? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the details of his experience last night? + +Mr. LEHRER. A little bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Ryder had been in here? + +Mr. LEHRER. Yes; that Ryder was here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact and indicating for the record, +the way the information came most recently to my attention, that you +had overheard this, because Mrs. Martha Jo Stroud, an assistant U.S. +attorney in this office, told me that you had come over here after we +had asked Schmidt to come over and testify. + +Mr. LEHRER. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you mentioned to her in passing that you thought +probably we wanted Schmidt to come over so we could ask him about this +newspaper story that was written in connection with the Irving Sports +Shop; isn't that right? + +Mr. LEHRER. Well, specifically, when Martha Jo called Hunter and told +him that somebody from the Warren Commission wanted to talk to him on a +certain day, Hunter came over to me and said, "Somebody from Washington +is coming in," and you know, I didn't know that anybody was coming in. +You know, you are unannounced on your trips here and this is part of my +responsibility to cover Warren Commission people when they come and I +try to do it, and I said--we discussed, "Maybe they want to talk to you +about this deal, because the FBI had talked to you before," and so the +next day when I was down talking to Martha Jo, we were talking about +it and I indicated to her this was probably what it was. I told her +what it was probably about and I said there was no problem--I was just +sitting there and just sitting there very casually. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt in your mind whatsoever that +Schmidt actually talked to Ryder that morning, do you? + +Mr. LEHRER. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are aware of the fact, of course, that Ryder denies +talking to this man? + +Mr. LEHRER. That's what I understand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no information that would suggest any reason +why Ryder would deny this? + +Mr. LEHRER. I can't think of any reason unless he denies the +information, if he just denies the technicality that he didn't talk +to a newspaperman or didn't talk to Schmidt specifically, that's one +thing; if he's denying the whole bit, that's conceivable. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; he doesn't deny the whole bit, he just denies that he +was the one that gave that story out. + +Mr. LEHRER. I see; I don't know what it could be in that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any reason why Schmidt might be lying +about it? + +Mr. LEHRER. No; he had nothing to gain by it. It was just a story, and +my goodness, we were working--I mean--there were a multitude of stories +and a multitude of checking out and we were deluged just like everybody +was with rumors and things of this and that and he would have no reason +to write something that wasn't true. The fact is, he didn't even have +his name on it, so he didn't have anything to gain by it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. + +Mr. LEHRER. Thank you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your cooperation. + +Mr. LEHRER. All right. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF BARDWELL D. ODUM + +The following affidavit was executed by Bardwell D. Odum on July 10, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Bardwell D. Odum, having first been duly sworn, depose as follows: + +I am presently a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, +U.S. Department of Justice, and have been employed in such a capacity +since June 15, 1942. + +On November 23, 1963, while acting officially in my capacity as a +Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I obtained a +photograph of an unknown individual, furnished to the Federal Bureau +of Investigation by the Central Intelligence Agency, and proceeded to +the Executive Inn, a motel, at Dallas, Texas, where Marina Oswald was +staying. + +In view of the source of this picture, and, in order to remove all +background data which might possibly have disclosed the location where +the picture was taken, I trimmed off the background. The straight cuts +made were more quickly done than a complete trimming of the silhouette +and I considered them as effective for the desired purpose. + +I desired to show this photograph to Marina Oswald in an attempt to +identify the individual portrayed in the photograph and to determine if +he was an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +It was raining and almost dark. I went to the door of Marina Oswald's +room and knocked, identifying myself. Marguerite Oswald opened the door +slightly and, upon being informed that I wished to speak to Marina +Oswald, told me that Marina Oswald was completely exhausted and could +not be interviewed. Marguerite Oswald did not admit me to the motel +room. I told her I desired to show a photograph to Marina Oswald, and +Marguerite Oswald again said that Marina was completely exhausted and +could not be interviewed due to that fact. I then showed Marguerite +Oswald the photograph in question. She looked at it briefly and stated +that she had never seen this individual. I then departed the Executive +Inn. The conversation with Marguerite Oswald and the exhibition of the +photograph took place while I was standing outside the door to the room +and Marguerite Oswald was standing inside with the door slightly ajar. + +Attached hereto are two photographic copies of the front and back of a +photograph.[G] I have examined these copies and they are exact copies +of the photograph of the unknown individual which I showed to Mrs. +Marguerite Oswald on November 23, 1963. + +Signed this 10th day of July 1964. + + (S) Bardwell D. Odum, + BARDWELL D. ODUM. + + [G] The photograph referred to in the above affidavit of + Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum appears in the exhibit + volumes as Odum Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES R. MALLEY + +The following affidavit was executed by James R. Malley on July 14, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +I, James R. Malley, Inspector, Federal Bureau of Investigation, +Department of Justice, being first duly sworn, depose as follows: + +In accordance with a request by Mr. Howard P. Willens, a member of the +staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President +Kennedy, I transmitted to the Commission on February 11, 1964, a copy +of a photograph of an unidentified man which was made available to the +Federal Bureau of Investigation by the Central Intelligence Agency. + +Prior to transmitting the aforementioned copy of this photograph to +the President's Commission, I used a scissors and trimmed from the +photograph all background which surrounded the head, shoulders and arms +of the unidentified individual. I did this, inasmuch as the Central +Intelligence Agency had previously advised that it had no objection to +this Bureau furnishing a copy of this photograph to the President's +Commission with all background eliminated. + +I have examined a copy of Commission Exhibit 237, which is attached,[H] +and it appears such exhibit was made from the copy of the photograph +of the unidentified individual which I cropped and transmitted to Mr. +Willens on February 11, 1964. + +To my knowledge, the identity of the unknown individual depicted in the +copy of the photograph which I transmitted to Mr. Willens on February +11, 1964, has not been established. + +I have reviewed records of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in this +particular matter and such records disclose that a duplicate copy +of this same photograph was cropped in a different shape to remove +background by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum of the Dallas Office of +the Federal Bureau of Investigation and was then exhibited to Mrs. +Marguerite Oswald by Special Agent Odum on November 23, 1963. + +Signed this 14th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. + + (S) James R. Malley, + JAMES R. MALLEY. + + [H] The photograph referred to in the above affidavit of + Inspector James R. Malley is identical to Commission + Exhibit No. 237 and appears in the exhibit volumes. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD HELMS + +The following affidavit was executed by Richard Helms on August 7, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF VIRGINIA, + _County of Fairfax, ss_: + +Richard Helms, being duly sworn says: + +1. I am the Deputy Director for Plans of the Central Intelligence +Agency. + +2. I base this affidavit on my personal knowledge of the affairs of +the Central Intelligence Agency and on detailed inquiries of those +officers and employees within my supervision who would have knowledge +about any photographs furnished by that Agency to the Federal Bureau of +Investigation. + +3. I have personally examined the photograph which has been marked +Commission Exhibit No. 237, a copy of which is attached to the +affidavit of Inspector James R. Malley, dated July 14, 1964, and the +photograph attached to the affidavit of Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum +dated July 10, 1964. + +4. Those photographs are partial copies of a photograph furnished by +the Central Intelligence Agency to the Federal Bureau of Investigation +on November 22, 1963. They are referred to as partial only because, on +information and belief, Odum and Malley personally trimmed or cropped +their copies of the photograph to exclude the background against which +the individual portrayed in these photographs is depicted in the +original photograph. + +5. The figure portrayed in those photographs is the same individual +portrayed in the original photograph. + +6. The original photograph was taken outside of the continental United +States sometime during the period July 1, 1963 to November 23, 1963. + +Signed this 7th day of August 1964. + + (S) Richard Helms. + RICHARD HELMS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF PETER MEGARGEE BROWN + +The following affidavit was executed by Peter Megargee Brown on May 13, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF NEW YORK, + _County of New York, ss_: + +Peter Megargee Brown, being duly sworn, says: + +I am a member of the firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft, counsel +for the Community Service Society and am familiar with the papers and +records in the possession of the Society relating to Lee Harvey Oswald. + +This firm has caused a search of the files of Community Service Society +under my supervision which reveals one file entitled "Marguerite +Claverie Oswald #219055". The foregoing file is now in the possession +of the deponent. To the best of my knowledge this file contains the +only papers relating to Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession or control +of the Community Service Society. Accordingly under my supervision +photostatic copies have been made of this entire file, such copies +being attached to this affidavit. + +In information and belief the attached photostatic copies[I] are of the +entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Lee Harvey Oswald +in the possession and control of the Community Service Society or its +counsel. + +Signed this 13th day of May 1964. + + (S) Peter Megargee Brown, + PETER MEGARGEE BROWN. + + [I] The attached photostatic copies referred to in the above + affidavit appear in the exhibit volumes as Brown Exhibit + No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF GARY TAYLOR + +The following affidavit was executed by Gary Taylor on August 4, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Gary Taylor, 3948 Orlando Court, Apartment 111, Dallas, Tex., being +sworn, say: + +1. As I testified in my deposition, I went with Lee Harvey Oswald on or +about November 4, 1962, to a gasoline service station in Fort Worth, +Texas, where Oswald rented a U-Haul trailer which we were to use and +did use in transporting Oswald's household goods and paraphernalia from +Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to the Oswalds' Elsbeth Street apartment +in Dallas. + +2. The rental charge for the trailer was about $5.00 and was paid by +Oswald. I made the cash deposit to secure the return of the trailer. I +returned the trailer that afternoon and picked up the deposit. + +Signed this 4th day of August 1964. + + (S) Gary E. Taylor, + GARY E. TAYLOR. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF FRANCIS L. MARTELLO + +The following affidavit was executed by Francis L. Martello on July 31, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +I, Lt. Francis L. Martello, Police Headquarters, 2700 Tulane Avenue, +New Orleans, La., being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +1. I am a Lieutenant in the New Orleans Police Department. + +2. When a suspect is arrested, an arrest report is filled out. The +notations concerning the height and the weight of the suspect are the +figures supplied by him. + +3. When a suspect is booked, he is fingerprinted, photographed, weighed +and measured. Thus, the weight figure on the Bureau of Identification +Card would be the result of an actual weigh-in. + +Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at New Orleans, La. + + (S) Francis L. Martello, + Lieutenant FRANCIS L. MARTELLO. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN CORPORON + +The following affidavit was executed by John Corporon on July 29, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +John Corporon, being duly sworn, says: + +1. My name is John Corporon. I am and have been since at least August +1, 1963, head of the news department of WDSU-TV and radio, New Orleans. + +2. As such I am familiar with the programs broadcast over both WDSU-TV +and WDSU radio. + +3. Mr. William Stuckey has never had any TV or radio show known as +"Latin American Focus" on that station or, to the best of my knowledge, +any other radio or TV station. + +4. In August of 1963 Mr. Stuckey had a radio program called "Latin +Listening Post" which was broadcast some of the time over WDSU radio. + +5. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared briefly on Stuckey's radio program known +as "Latin Listening Post" on August 17, 1963. + +6. To the best of my knowledge Oswald never appeared on any other TV +or radio program in connection with Mr. Stuckey or any other program +either over radio or television in the City of New Orleans with the +exception of a radio program known as "Conversation Carte Blanche" on +which Oswald appeared on August 21, 1963 and on a brief TV news program +following the broadcast of "Conversation Carte Blanche" on that date. + +Signed this 29th day of July 1964. + + (S) John R. Corporon, + JOHN CORPORON. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. J. U. ALLEN + +The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. J. U. Allen on June 12, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF MISSISSIPPI, + _County of Claiborne, ss_: + +Mrs. J. U. Allen, Port Gibson, Claiborne County, State of Louisiana, +being duly sworn, says: + +1. I am secretary of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, a boys military academy +at Port Gibson, Mississippi, and I am in charge and custody of its +books and records. + +2. I have examined the records and files of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy +for the years 1945 through 1948, both inclusive, which are kept in the +regular and usual course of business under my supervision. It appears +from those records that John Edward Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, half +brothers and sons of Marguerite Oswald (and for a portion of the period +1945 through 1948 was Mrs. Edwin A. Ekdahl), entered Chamberlain-Hunt +Academy in September 1945, on transfer from Davy Crockett School in +Dallas, Texas. They continued as students during the school years +1945-1946, 1946-1947, and 1947-1948. Said records show that John Edward +Pic was transferred to Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, +Texas, in September 1948. The records do not show the school to which +Robert Lee Oswald was transferred at the end of the academic year +1947-1948. + +3. The Exhibits marked Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 1 to +4[J] are Verifax copies of the records of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy +respecting the attendance of John Edward Pic and Robert Lee Oswald as +students at said Academy. Said Exhibits were prepared under my personal +supervision and direction. + +4. Included in the files of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy are various +items of correspondence. Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 5 to +15 are true and correct Verifax & Thermofax copies of said items of +correspondence. The Verifax copies were prepared under my personal +supervision and direction. + +Signed this 12th day of June 1964. + + (S) Mrs. J. U. Allen, + Mrs. J. U. ALLEN. + + [J] Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 1-15 were + subsequently relabeled Allen Exhibits Nos. 1-15, + respectively. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF LILLIAN MURRET + +The following affidavit was executed by Lillian Murret on June 3, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +Lillian Murret, being duly sworn, says: + +1. Affiant is the sister of Marguerite Claverie Oswald. + +2. In the month of May 1945, Marguerite Claverie Oswald sent affiant a +snapshot photograph of herself and her husband, Edwin A. Ekdahl, taken +on their marriage day, May 5, 1945. + +3. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is the original of the aforesaid +snapshot photograph. Affiant recalls the physical appearances of her +sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald and of her newly wed husband Edwin +A. Ekdahl as of the year 1945. The lady pictured in the snapshot +photograph, which is Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1, is affiant's sister +Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The gentleman pictured in the photograph +(Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1) is Edwin A. Ekdahl, the husband of +Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The photograph is in each instance an +accurate and true photographic representation of Mr. and Mrs. Edwin A. +Ekdahl as they looked and appeared in May of 1945. + +4. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1, when received by affiant in May +1945, bore on the reverse side the inscription or endorsement: "May +5th--Happy Though Married." Affiant is familiar with the handwriting +of her sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The aforesaid longhand +inscription on the reverse side of Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is in +the handwriting of affiant's sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald. + +5. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is in the same condition now as it was +when received by affiant in May of 1945. + +Signed this 3d day of June 1964. + + (S) Mrs. Lillian Murret, + LILLIAN MURRET. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN W. BURCHAM + +The following affidavit was executed by John W. Burcham on June 19, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Travis, ss_: + +I, John W. Burcham, sometimes referred to as Jack W. Bucham, being duly +sworn, say: + +1. I am a resident of Austin, Texas, and am Chief of Unemployment +Insurance of the Texas Employment Commission at Austin, Texas. + +2. Burcham Exhibit No. 1, consisting of 63 pages, is a photostatic +copy of my report of November 26, 1963, respecting the interstate +unemployment compensation claim of Lee Harvey Oswald and of the various +claimant payment records and documents described in said report. + +3. Burcham Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3 have been personally examined by +me. From my knowledge of procedures and operations of the Insurance +Department of the Texas Employment Commission, Burcham Exhibit No. 2 +appears to me to be the copy of the Form B-12 mailed to L. H. Oswald +by the Texas Employment Commission on April 16, 1963, and Burcham +Exhibit No. 3 appears to be the document mailed by the Texas Employment +Commission along with the final payment mailed to L. H. Oswald +notifying him this was his last payment. + +Signed this 19th day of June 1964. + + (S) John W. Burcham, + JOHN W. BURCHAM. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF EMMETT CHARLES BARBE, JR. + +The following affidavit was executed by Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr., on +June 15, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr. of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn, says: + +1. I am employed by William B. Reily Company, Inc., as Maintenance +Foreman. The William B. Reily Company plant is located at 640 Magazine +Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. I have been employed by that Company +for five years. During the year 1963 I was serving as Maintenance +Foreman. + +2. William B. Reily Company is engaged in the roasting, grinding, +canning, bagging, and sale of coffee. In its roasting, grinding, +canning, and bagging operations a great deal of machinery consisting +of chains, conveyer belts, motors, blowers, automatic hoppers, +grinders, etc., distributed over some five floors of the premises is +employed in said operations. Said machinery must be kept well greased +and oiled. This work required the full time of one man. + +3. Lee Harvey Oswald became employed by William B. Reily Company, +Inc. as a greaser and oiler maintenance man on May 10, 1963. His +employment terminated on July 19, 1963. During the latter portion of +his employment, I served as his immediate supervisor. As his supervisor +I was aware of Oswald's performance or lack thereof of his duties. + +4. There were occasions from time to time when I was unable to locate +Oswald in and about the premises and learned that he was in the habit +of absenting himself from the premises without leave and visiting a +service station establishment adjacent to the Reily Coffee Company +known as Alba's Crescent City Garage. Furthermore, Oswald had become +quite indifferent to the performance of his duties. I spoke with him +from time to time about his absences and his indifferences, all to +no avail. Ultimately I recommended to my superiors that Oswald be +discharged. My request was granted and he was discharged on July 19, +1963. + +Signed this 15th day of June 1964. + + (S) Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr. + EMMETT CHARLES BARBE, Jr. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HILDA L. SMITH + +The following affidavit was executed by Hilda L. Smith on June 15, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +I, Hilda L. Smith, 1205 St. Charles, Apartment 813, New Orleans, La., +being first duly sworn, depose and say: + +1. That I was employed by the Louisiana Labor Department, Division of +Employment Security, Employment Service, and Unemployment Compensation, +630 Camp Street, New Orleans 12, Louisiana, on April 29 and April 30, +1963. + +2. I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald when he applied for his initial +Interstate Claim. + +3. I recall that when I interviewed him, he was very evasive. He was +very abrupt and I considered him unusual. I only saw him this one time +since others handled his Continued Interstate Claim. + +4. The signature appearing on the attached Interstate Claim, labelled +Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 2 is my signature.[K] + +Signed this 15th day of June 1964. + + (S) Hilda L. Smith, + HILDA L. SMITH. + + [K] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 2 was + subsequently relabeled as Smith Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF J. RACHAL + +The following affidavit was executed by J. Rachal on June 22, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +J. Rachal, of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn says: + +1. My name is J. Rachal. I am now and have for a number of years +past been employed by the Louisiana Department of Labor, Division of +Employment Security, Professional Unit. + +2. In my capacity as Placement Interviewer in the Professional Unit +of the Louisiana State Employment Security Division of the Louisiana +Department of Labor, I had occasion to become acquainted with one Lee +Harvey Oswald. I recall his being in my office and at my desk on April +26, 1963, which was his initial visit. + +3. At that time Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit number 1[L] was +filled out, in part by Mr. Oswald and in part by me. Said Exhibit +number 1 is the Registration Card so made out by Lee Harvey Oswald and +myself, recording Oswald's registration as an unemployed worker who had +come from Texas and was seeking employment in New Orleans. + +4. The hand-printing, with the exception of the block entitled "Skills, +Knowledge, Abilities, and Experience," and the notations in the block +entitled "Special information and employment counseling statement," and +the letters "RIF" in the upper right-hand corner of the inside face +of Exhibit number 1, is that of the applicant, Lee Harvey Oswald. The +writing other than that of Lee Harvey Oswald is that of affiant. The +signature appearing at the foot of the inside face of Exhibit number 1 +is that of affiant. Exhibit number 1 is part of the books and records +of the aforesaid Division of Employment Security of the Louisiana +Department of Labor, kept in the usual and regular course of business. + +5. Exhibit number 1 reflects that Lee Harvey Oswald first called at +the Unemployment Division on April 26, 1963, and at that time was +interviewed by me and supplied the personal data and prior employment +and experience facts recited on Exhibit No. 1. + +6. Upon noting that Oswald had listed Photographer as one of his +skills, I telephonically contacted the George Reppel Studio, 5220 +Elysian Fields, to determine if they needed the services of a +photographer. Upon learning that they could employ the services of a +photographer, I directed Oswald to report to that company for possible +employment, and I recorded that reference on the reverse side of +Exhibit number 1. A few days later I recontacted the studio and learned +that Oswald had not appeared there. + +7. Exhibit number 1 also reflects the fact that on April 29, 1963, +Oswald again reported to the Unemployment Compensation Office at 630 +Camp Street, which is the claims office, and filed an interstate claim +against the State of Texas for unemployment compensation. This was a +reactivation of his claim. I had learned from my earlier interview that +Oswald had therefore been employed for relatively short periods of time +at Fort Worth, Texas, and Dallas, Texas. The letters "RIF" appearing +in the upper right-hand corner of Exhibit number 1 are an abbreviation +for the words "Reduction in Force." The presence of those letters on +Exhibit number 1 means that Oswald advised me that the reason for +his termination of employment at Jaggars, Chiles, Stovall of Dallas, +Texas, was a reduction in force, a prerequisite to a valid claim for +unemployment compensation. + +8. I recall that Oswald was neatly dressed with a suit, dress shirt, +and tie on the occasion of our initial interview. On July 22, 1963, he +was more casually dressed. + +9. Oswald returned after the April 29, 1963, visit to our office on +July 22, 1963. Between the April 29 and July 22 dates, the application +card had been green-lined in the right hand column either because the +applicant had not come in in four weeks or his claim had been cancelled +or terminated sometime during that period. Sometime subsequent to July +22, 1963, Oswald's application card was again green-lined for one of +the two reasons above stated. This application card is marked Exhibit +number 1. + +10. I recall that Oswald returned some time, either late in July or +the forepart of August 1963, seeking employment assistance. In the +meantime, the incident involving the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had +come to my attention. I had seen Oswald on a television broadcast +showing him distributing Fair Play for Cuba handbills. There was +reference in the broadcast to his having lived in Russia, marrying +a Russian girl, and returning to this country. I discussed the +matter with my supervisor, Miss Hope Kristofferson. As a result, it +was determined that we should not undertake to furnish employment +references for him. This was the last contact I had with Mr. Oswald. + +11. Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit numbers 10 and 11[M] are also +records of the Division of Employment Security of the Department of +Labor of Louisiana in New Orleans. The forms themselves are identical +with Exhibit number 1, and the recorded information is substantially +identical with the information set forth in Exhibit number 1. Exhibits +numbers 10 and 11 were prepared in another section of my Division and +reflect the fact that on May 28, 1963, Oswald was referred to Commerce +Pictures Company of New Orleans for possible employment as a developer, +and the initials "NR" appearing in green crayon on the reverse side of +Exhibit number 10 reflect the fact that Oswald did not report to the +Commerce Picture Company. Serial number 259 appearing under the heading +"Remarks" on the same line on which the green crayoned letters "NR" +appear means that the unemployed person failed to respond and that his +unemployment compensation would be delayed one week to make further +determination of the applicant's status. + +12. Inasmuch as Oswald was an interstate claimant and the libel was +against the State of Texas, his weekly appearances for the purposes +of keeping his interstate claim alive were furnished to the Texas +Employment Commission in Austin, Texas, and they in turn would issue an +unemployment check which would be mailed directly to Oswald. Oswald's +weekly appearances at our office were recorded on Form 1-B-2. + +Signed this 22d day of June 1964. + + (S) John Russell Rachal, + J. RACHAL. + + [L] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 1 was + subsequently relabeled Rachal Exhibit No. 1. + + [M] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 10 and 11 + were subsequently relabeled Rachal Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3, + respectively. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF BOBB HUNLEY + +The following affidavit was executed by Bobb Hunley on June 16, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +I, Bobb Hunley, employed by the Louisiana Labor Department, Division of +Employment Security, Employment Service, and Unemployment Compensation, +630 Camp Street, New Orleans 12, La., being first duly sworn, depose +and say: + +1. That I recall handling Lee Harvey Oswald's Interstate Claims at the +Division of Employment Security office. + +2. Generally there is a line of claimants with their IB-2 forms which +they have previously filled out. I sign them and fill in blanks four +through eight. + +3. I recall nothing unusual about Lee Harvey Oswald. He usually wore a +T-shirt and light windbreaker. + +4. We do not check to see if the claimant has contacted the places +listed in item 14 of the IB-2 form. Thus, I have no knowledge of +whether Oswald contacted the employers he listed. + +5. The signatures appearing on the attached Interstate Claims, labelled +as Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9, and +the Interstate Request for Recommendation of Monetary Determination, +Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit Nos. 3 and 6 are my signatures.[N] + +Signed this 16th day of June 1964. + + (S) Bobb W. Hunley, + BOBB HUNLEY. + + [N] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 4-9 were + subsequently relabeled Hunley Exhibits Nos. 1-7, + respectively. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT J. CREEL + +The following affidavit was executed by Robert J. Creel on June 26, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF LOUISIANA, + _Parish of Orleans, ss_: + +Robert J. Creel, of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn, says: + +1. My name is Robert J. Creel. I am employed by the State of Louisiana, +Department of Labor, Division of Employment Security, Employment +Service and Unemployment Compensation, 630 Camp Street, New Orleans, +Louisiana, and have been so employed since prior to the year 1962. + +2. I am familiar with the records and documents maintained by said +Division of Employment Security. + +3. The several Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 12 through +19,[O] both inclusive, which have been submitted to me and which I have +examined are either original or exact copies of records of the State +of Louisiana, Department of Labor, Division of Employment Security, +Unemployment Insurance Service, maintained by it in the usual and +regular course of business. Said exhibits relate to the interstate +claim of Lee Harvey Oswald against the State of Texas, and record the +investigation and disposition of said claim by the State of Louisiana +and the State of Texas. + +Signed this 26th day of June, 1964. + + (S) Robert J. Creel, + ROBERT J. CREEL. + + [O] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 12-19 + were subsequently relabeled Creel Exhibits Nos. 1-8, + respectively. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM + +The following affidavit was executed by Helen P. Cunningham on June 11, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +Mrs. Helen P. Cunningham, being duly sworn, says: + +1. I am in the employ of the Texas Employment Commission as an +Employment Counselor. As appears from my deposition I had occasion in +my official capacity to counsel with Lee Harvey Oswald. I am familiar +with the official books and records of the Texas Employment Commission +maintained at its Dallas, Texas, office. Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 is +the original copy of the Counseling Record Card which was prepared in +the course of and in connection with the counseling service rendered by +me. + +2. All of the handwriting appearing on both sides of the Counseling +Record Card is in my hand and consists of entries made by me at the +time I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald on October 9 and 10, 1962. The +entries under the portion of the exhibit entitled "Counselor's Notes" +reflect that Oswald was referred on October 10, 1962, for a position +at Harrell and Huntington, architects, for a position as messenger at +$1.50 an hour, and thereafter to Jaggars Printing for a position as +photo-printing trainee at $1.35 an hour. The entry "10-15-62" on the +face of the Counseling Record Card reflects the fact that Oswald had +obtained employment at Jaggars Printing and that the case was closed +successfully. + +3. On the face of the card is reflected the fact that Mr. Don +Brooks, Counselor in the Industrial Division of the Texas Employment +Commission, interviewed Oswald previous to October 9, 10 and 11, 1962. + +4. As it appears from the entries in my hand on the reverse side of +Cunningham Exhibit No. 4, I recorded the fact that I obtained Oswald's +"General Aptitude Test" battery results from the Fort Worth office of +the Texas Employment Commission. I concluded after examining the GATB +obtained from the Fort Worth office and after interviewing Oswald that +because he was in great financial need for immediate employment, that +I should classify him for clerical work and I noted on the face of the +card the proper clerical code, being 1-X 4.9. I also recorded the fact +that on October 11, 1962, Oswald was referred to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall +Printing Company as a photo-print trainee and that Oswald was +enthusiastic about the possibility of his being employed. I also +recorded the fact that Oswald reported on October 15, 1962, that he had +obtained the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall position and that he was pleased. + +5. In my counseling with Oswald and as appears from my entry under the +heading "Other Plans" Oswald told me that he hoped to develop through a +work-study program at Dallas College or Arlington State qualification +for responsible junior executive employment but that this must be +delayed because of his and his family's immediate financial needs and +responsibilities. + +6. The notation "D. Brooks" appearing on the face of Cunningham Exhibit +No. 4 refers to Don Brooks, who is identified above; my signature +appears to the right of the notation of Mr. Brooks' name. I wrote "D. +Brooks" name on the face of Cunningham Exhibit No. 4. + +7. Cunningham Exhibits 1-A, 2-A and 3-A are, respectively, originals of +Cunningham Exhibits 1, 2 and 3. + +8. The green-ink entry on the facing side of Cunningham Exhibit No. +1-A, "10-30-62", means that on that date it was confirmed that Oswald +was employed. The succeeding entry being "4-8-63" records the fact that +Oswald came to the Commission on that date, seeking employment; he +having lost his position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. The succeeding +entry "4-12-63" records the fact that Oswald visited the Commission +offices in further pursuit of employment. The succeeding entry, which +is in green crayon, "5-8-63" when considered with the entry dated +"5-3-63" in the referral section of the exhibit, records the fact that +on that day Oswald was mailed a call-in card for possible referral to +Texas Power and Light Company for a position as meter reader but failed +to respond. The next entry on the face of Cunningham Exhibit No. 1-A +which is "Ri-10-3-63" records the fact that his case was reactivated as +of that date and the final entry "10-17-63" in green crayon records the +closing of his case due to his having obtained employment. This entry +is related to the final entry in the referral section of Cunningham +Exhibit No. 1-A which recites under the heading "Remarks" that at 10:30 +a.m. on October 16, 1963, it was ascertained by Robert L. Adams that +Oswald had obtained employment. + +Signed this 11th day of June 1964. + + (S) Helen P. Cunningham, + HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF THEODORE FRANK GANGL + +The following affidavit was executed by Theodore Frank Gangl on June +16, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Theodore Frank Gangl, 7903 Mohawk Drive, Dallas, Tex., being duly +sworn, depose and say: + +1. That I am Plant Superintendent for the Padgett Printing Corporation, +1313 North Industrial, Dallas, Texas. + +2. On October 4, 1963, I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald, who had applied +for employment in response to an advertisement the Padgett Printing +Corporation placed in the local newspaper. We were seeking a typesetter +in the composing room. + +3. Oswald was well dressed and neat. He made a favorable impression on +the foreman of the department to whom I introduced Oswald. Since Oswald +had worked in a trade plant I was interested in him as a possible +employee. + +4. Oswald filled out the application. Padgett Printing Corporation +Exhibit No. 1[P] is a photostatic copy of the original application +which was filled in during the course of my interview with Oswald. The +original application was prepared and maintained among the records of +Padgett Printing Corporation in the usual and regular course of its +business. The exhibit is a copy of the application as it was when it +was completed by me on or about October 4, 1963. It is entirely in +Oswald's handwriting except for my initials in the blank, "Interviewed +by", the date, the word "over", and the handwriting on the reverse +side, all of which are in my handwriting. + +5. Oswald said he could be reached at the Irving, Texas, phone number +he listed on the application, and he suggested particular periods of +the week he would most likely be available to respond to a telephone +call. + +6. Shortly after the interview, I called Mr. Stovall at +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, where Oswald had previously worked. Mr. +Stovall was not there, so I spoke with somebody who had worked with +Oswald there. He implied that Oswald's fellow employees did not like +him because he was propagandizing and had been seen reading a foreign +newspaper. + +7. I later talked with Mr. Robert Stovall, who is a friend of mine, and +he said Oswald could not get along there and he could not adapt himself +to the type of work assigned to him. + +8. As a result of this conversation I wrote the comments that appear on +the back of the application and decided that we would not hire him. + +9. I called Oswald at the Irving, Texas, telephone number he had +written on the application and told him that we had hired somebody with +better qualifications. + +Signed this 16th day of June 1964. + + (S) Theo. F. Gangl, + THEODORE F. GANGL. + + [P] Padgett Printing Corp. Exhibit No. 1 was subsequently + relabeled Gangl Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF GENE GRAVES + +The following affidavit was executed by Gene Graves on June 16, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Tarrent, ss_: + +My name is Gene Graves and I am employed as a secretary with the Leslie +Welding Co., Inc., 200 E-North Vacek, Fort Worth, Tex. + +I certify that the attached copies[Q] of time cards of Lee Harvey +Oswald are true and correct. + +Signed this 16th day of June 1964. + + (S) Gene Graves, + GENE GRAVES. + + [Q] These attachments were subsequently relabeled Graves + Exhibit No. 1. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT L. ADAMS + +The following affidavit was executed by Robert L. Adams on August 4, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Robert L. Adams, being duly sworn, say: + +1. I am now, and during all of the year 1963 was an employee of the +Texas Employment Commission as an employment interviewer. As appears +from my deposition, I had occasion, during the month of October, 1963, +to refer Lee Harvey Oswald to several employment opportunities that had +come to the attention of the Texas Employment Commission. + +2. I am familiar with the official books and records of the Texas +Employment Commission maintained at its Dallas, Texas, office. +Cunningham Exhibit 1-A is the original of the Texas Employment +Commission employment, application, counseling, and referral card or +record, familiarly known as an "E-13," respecting Lee Harvey Oswald. +It was prepared and maintained in the usual course of the business +and services rendered by the Texas Employment Commission. The entries +thereon are true and correct. + +3. Cunningham Exhibit 1-A is a single-fold card. The last three +lines of entries on the lower portion of the inside (when folded) of +Cunningham Exhibit 1-A are in my hand. All of those entries were made +by me. + +4. At the time that my deposition was taken, I did not have before me +either Cunningham Exhibit 1-A or a copy or duplicate thereof. However, +since that time I have had an opportunity to examine Cunningham Exhibit +1-A. This has served to refresh my recollection of my contacts with Lee +Harvey Oswald and the job employment opportunity references which I +made for him on October 7, 9, and 15, 1963. + +5. As appears from the last three sets of entries in my hand on the +lower portion of the inside pages of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A: + +(a) On October 7, 1963, the Texas Employment Commission had on hand +an order from the Solid State Electronics Company of Texas for a +sales clerk at an indicated compensation of $350 per month, for +permanent employment, for which they desired the Commission to refer an +applicant. On that day I called BL3-1628, which is the telephone number +in Irving, Texas, that appears on the face of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A. I +was told that Oswald was not in. I left a message with the person who +answered, requesting that Mr. Oswald contact me. The entry "Left MSG to +call under the column headed "Remarks" is my notation of the fact that +I made the telephone call and left the message on October 7, as I have +just stated. Oswald contacted me the next day either by telephone or +in person in the Commission offices. My present recollection does not +serve me to say which. I had in the meantime contacted the prospective +employer and discussed with him the matter of Oswald's qualifications +for the position they had in mind. As a result of that conversation, +I had received authority to send Oswald for an interview. Since I had +authority to refer Oswald, I did not call the prospective employer +again, but sent Oswald directly. Accordingly, the word "Direct," which +I wrote in the column headed "Remarks," records that fact. Later that +day I personally checked with Solid State Electronics Company of Texas +and was advised that Oswald had followed through on my job reference, +had been interviewed, but had not been hired. The initials "NH" that +appear under the column headed "Results" mean "Not Hired." I made that +entry when I learned that Oswald had responded to the job opportunity +but had not been hired. + +(b) On October 9, 1963, I referred Oswald on a clerk trainee job +opportunity at $1.25 an hour with the Burton-Dixie Company of +Dallas. I made this reference directly, that is, while he was in the +Texas Employment Commission offices. Later that day I checked with +Burton-Dixie Company and learned that Oswald had responded to the +reference but had not been hired. The word "Direct" appearing under +the column headed "Remarks" is my recording of the fact that I referred +Oswald directly to the employer on this order. + +(c) On October 15, 1963, I was advised by Mr. Roy of Trans Texas +Airways that the company was contemplating expansion and that he would +need possibly as many as twelve or fourteen ramp agents, as they +are called by the airlines industry; we call them baggage or cargo +handlers. He advised me of the minimum qualifications and asked me to +send out job applicants who met them. He advised that the salary was +$310 per month and that the employment was permanent. Oswald was one of +the possible applicants whom I referred for interview on this order. +My best recollection is that on that day I called the BL3-1628 Irving, +Texas, telephone number listed on the face of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A. +I learned from the person who answered the phone that Oswald was not +there. I left a message with that person that Oswald should contact +me at the Commission. My further recollection is that the following +morning at 10:30 o'clock I again called the BL3-1628 Irving, Texas, +number and learned from the person who answered that Oswald was not +there and that he had in the meantime obtained employment and was +working. I thereupon made the entry, appearing in the column headed +"Remarks," which reads: "Working 10:30 A 10-16 RLA," in order to record +the information I had received as a result of my telephone call. On the +following day, October 17, 1963, I "green dated" the face of Cunningham +Exhibit 1-A. This means, as appears from the face of Cunningham Exhibit +1-A, that I entered in green crayon the date October 17, 1963, which is +our way of recording the fact that the applicant is no longer available +for employment. The initials "NR" appearing under the column headed +"Results" mean "Non-report" or, in other words, that the man referred +on the job application did not report. I included that designation +under the column headed "Results" as a result of the information I +received when I made the foregoing telephone call at 10:30 in the +morning of October 16, 1963. Inasmuch as I did not talk with Oswald +either by telephone or in person in connection with this job order, I +do not know whether he was ever advised of this referral, but under the +circumstances I do not see how he could have been. + +Signed this 4th day of August 1964. + + (S) Robert L Adams, + ROBERT L. ADAMS. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF IVAN D. LEE + +The following affidavit was executed by Ivan D. Lee on June 1, 1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + STATE OF TEXAS, + _County of Dallas, ss_: + +I, Ivan D. Lee, being duly sworn, depose as follows: + +In my performance of duties as a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation, I was assigned to take photographs of the rear of Major +Edwin A. Walker's residence at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, +Texas. + +On February 1, 1964, accompanied by Special Agent W. James Wood, I +proceeded to the alley area located behind the residence of Major +General Walker and took photographs from an automobile of the Federal +Bureau of Investigation proceeding slowly through the alleyway. These +photographs were taken at approximately 10:00 a.m. on February 1, 1964. +At approximately 10:30 a.m., I returned to the area on foot and took +two photographs, looking south by southwest down the alleyway behind +Major General Walker's residence toward Avondale Street, Dallas. After +returning to the Bureau automobile, we proceeded through the alley +once again at approximately 10:45 a.m. and took another photograph +of the rear of the residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker. At +approximately 11:15 a.m. another trip was made through the alley and +another photograph was taken of the rear of the residence of Major +General Edwin A. Walker. + +Photographs numbered on the back as DL 36[R] depict rear views of the +residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker, and is the same residence +as depicted in Commission exhibit number 5 and marked as FBI inventory +number 369. Photographs numbered as DL 35[S] depict the alleyway +looking south by southwest from the Church of Jesus Christ Latter +Day Saints parking lot which is located adjacent to and north of the +property of Major General Edwin A. Walker. In the left hand side of the +photographs of the alleyway, a driveway is noted, which is the driveway +leading to the back of Major General Edwin A. Walker's residence. + +I used a Federal Bureau of Investigation owned 35 millimeter Robot +camera in taking the above photographs. + +Signed this 1st day of June 1964, at Dallas, Tex. + + (S) Ivan D. Lee, + IVAN D. LEE. + + [R] This photograph was labeled Ivan Lee Exhibit A. + + [S] This photograph was labeled Ivan Lee Exhibit B. + + + + +AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES D. CROWLEY + +The following affidavit was executed by James D. Crowley on June 12, +1964. + + + AFFIDAVIT + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE ASSASSINATION OF + PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: + +James D. Crowley, being duly sworn, deposes and says: + +On August 13, 1961, he was duly appointed an officer in the Department +of State, as a specialist in intelligence matters; that he has +continued to serve in that capacity since that time, and that he has +personal knowledge of the matters related in this affidavit: + +1. I am one of the officers in the Department of State responsible for +disseminating throughout the Department various reports, memoranda +and documents which are received from other United States Government +agencies. + +2. The first time I remember learning of Oswald's existence was when I +received copies of a telegraphic message, dated October 10, 1963, from +the Central Intelligence Agency, which contained information pertaining +to his current activities. I requested that a search of the Office +of Security records be made on October 11, 1963, to determine if the +Department had received any information previously. Based on a quick +review of the Office of Security file on Oswald, I disseminated copies +of the Central Intelligence Agency message to the various offices +within the Department which were interested in receiving this type of +material. + +3. I also briefly reviewed Oswald's Office of Security file on November +14, 1963. Although I am not certain, I believe the impetus for this +review was either my receipt of a Federal Bureau of Investigation +report dated October 31, 1963 on Lee Harvey Oswald or my receipt +of a Federal Bureau of Investigation report dated October 25, 1963 +on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--New Orleans Division. Both of +these reports were received in the Intelligence Processing Section on +November 8, 1963. + +4. In both instances, I reviewed the Office of Security file in a +routine manner and had it returned to the Office of Security File Room +the same day in which it was charged to me. + +Signed this 12th day of June 1964. + + (S) James D. Crowley, + JAMES D. CROWLEY. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +In the source for this Volume, the name "De Mohrenschildt" sometimes +is printed in quoted material or Affidavits as "de Mohrenschildt" +or "deMohrenschildt", and all variations have been retained here. +In another Volume, which contained testimony from Mr. and Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt, "De" always was capitalized and was a separate word. + +Footnotes have been repositioned to immediately follow the Affidavits +or other information that reference them. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +The Preface and Contents refer to "Mrs. J. V. Allen" but the name in her +Affidavit is "Mrs. J. U. Allen". None of these were changed here. + +Page 67: "enclosed is an envelope" probably should be "in". + +Page 70: "Mr. Pic. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34." is a +misprint for "Mr. Jenner." + +Page 94: "merely to with the argument" probably should be "to win". + +Page 212: "Out Intourist Guide's name" was printed that way. + +Page 282: "ribbons in here hair" was printed that way. + +Page 288: "I wasn't in her being down there at the time." was printed +that way. + +Page 301: "The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken" was +misprinted with the initial "A" instead of "D"; changed here for +consistency with other instances. + +Page 373: "put an Americano came too" possibly should be "name". + +Page 437: "from a 22 caliber rifle" was printed without a period +before "22". + +Page 439: "carlot" was printed that way. + +Page 473: "Jack W. Bucham" was printed with that way, not as "Burcham". + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings +Vol. XI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44011 *** |