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diff --git a/44010.txt b/44010.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 9fdb398..0000000 --- a/44010.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,41776 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. -X (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 21, 2013 [EBook #44010] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V10 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's Note: Stylized "U" and "V" are denoted as =U= and =V=. -Italics are represented by _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ X - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume X: -Everett D. Glover, who became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald -following his return to Texas in 1962; Carlos Bringuier, Francis L. -Martello, Charles Hall Steele, Jr., Charles Hall Steele, Sr., Philip -Geraci III, Vance Blalock, Vincent T. Lee, Arnold Samuel Johnson, James -J. Tormey, Farrell Dobbs, and John J. Abt, who testified concerning -Oswald's political activities and associations; Helen P. Cunningham, -R. L. Adams, Donald E. Brooks, Irving Statman, Tommy Bargas, Robert L. -Stovall, John G. Graef, Dennis Hyman Ofstein, and Charles Joseph Le -Blanc, who testified concerning Oswald's employment history; Adrian -Thomas Alba, who was acquainted with Oswald in New Orleans in 1963; -Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias, Sr., Mr. -and Mrs. Jesse J. Garner, Richard Leroy Hulen, Colin Barnhorst, and -Mr. and Mrs. Arthur Carl Johnson, who testified concerning Oswald's -various residences; and Clifton M. Shasteen, Leonard Edwin Hutchison, -Frank Pizzo, Albert Guy Bogard, Floyd Guy Davis, Virginia Louise -Davis, Malcolm Howard Price, Jr., Garland Glenwill Slack, Dr. Homer -Wood, Sterling Charles Wood, Theresa Wood, Glenn Emmett Smith, W. W. -Semingsen, and Laurance R. Wilcox, who testified concerning contacts -they believed they had with Oswald under varying circumstances. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Everett D. Glover. 1 - Carlos Bringuier 32 - Francis L. Martello. 51 - Charles Hall Steele, Jr 62 - Charles Hall Steele, Sr 71 - Philip Geraci III 74 - Vance Blalock 81 - Vincent T. Lee 86 - Arnold Samuel Johnson 95 - James J. Tormey 107 - Farrell Dobbs 109 - John J. Abt 116 - Helen P. Cunningham 117 - R. L. Adams 136 - Donald E. Brooks 143 - Irving Statman 149 - Tommy Bargas 160 - Robert L. Stovall 167 - John G. Graef 174 - Dennis Hyman Ofstein 194 - Charles Joseph Le Blanc 213 - Adrian Thomas Alba 219 - Chester Allen Riggs, Jr 229 - Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias 231 - M. F. Tobias, Sr 251 - Mrs. Jesse Garner 264 - Jesse J. Garner 276 - Richard Leroy Hulen 277 - Colin Barnhorst 284 - Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson 292 - A. C. Johnson 301 - Clifton M. Shasteen 309 - Leonard Edwin Hutchison 327 - Frank Pizzo 340 - Albert Guy Bogard 352 - Floyd Guy Davis 356 - Virginia Louise Davis 363 - Malcolm Howard Price, Jr 369 - Garland Glenwill Slack 378 - Homer Wood 385 - Sterling Charles Wood 390 - Theresa Wood 398 - Glenn Emmett Smith 399 - W. W. Semingsen 405 - Laurance R. Wilcox 414 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Page - Commission Exhibit No. 427 183 - Bringuier Exhibit No.: - 1 42 - 2 41 - 3 44 - 4 46 - Cunningham Exhibit No.: - 1 119 - 1-A 119 - 2 121 - 2-A 121 - 3 156 - 3-A 156 - Dobbs Exhibit No.: - 1 109 - 2 109 - 3 109 - 4 109 - 5 109 - 6 111 - 7 110 - 8 112 - 9 110 - 10 110 - 11 112 - 12 113 - 13 114 - Garner Exhibit No. 1 49 - Hulen Exhibit No.: - 1 280 - 2 282 - 3 284 - 4 284 - 5 284 - 6 284 - 7 284 - 8 289 - 9 290 - 10 290 - 11 290 - 12 291 - 13 291 - 14 291 - 15 291 - Johnson (Arnold) Exhibit No.: - 1 97 - 2 99 - 3 99 - 4 100 - 4-A 101 - 5 101 - 5-A 103 - 6 101 - 7 103 - Johnson (Gladys) Exhibit A 294 - Lee Exhibit No.: - 1 87 - 2 88 - 3 88 - 3-A 88 - 4 88 - 5 88 - 6 90 - 7 91 - 8-A 91 - 8-B 91 - 8-C 91 - 9 91 - Pizzo Exhibit No.: - 453-A 350 - 453-B 350 - 453-C 350 - Semingsen Exhibit No.: - 3001 406 - 5118 406 - 5119 407 - 5120 407 - 5121 407 - Tobias (Mrs. Mahlon F.) Exhibit No. 1 233 - Tobias (Mahlon F., Sr.) Exhibit No. 2 253 - Tormey Exhibit No.: - 1 107 - 2 107 - Wilcox Exhibit No.: - 3002 415 - 3003 416 - 3004 416 - 3005 417 - 3006 417 - 3007 422 - 3008 423 - 3009 423 - 3010 423 - 3011 423 - 3012 423 - 3013 423 - 3014 423 - 3015 423 - 3016 424 - 3017 424 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EVERETT D. GLOVER - -The testimony of Everett D. Glover was taken at 11 a.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, would you stand? Do you promise to tell the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in response to my -questions in the taking now of your deposition? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, you have received, I think, sometime last week -a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, advising -you we desire to take your testimony by deposition. - -Mr. GLOVER. Advising me that you wanted to take my testimony. I don't -know whether it was specifically deposition, but yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the Commission has been established to investigate and -report all the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy and any participation by Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald -and others in that tragic event. - -We understand that you had some acquaintance with the Oswalds as well -as people in the community who, in turn, had an acquaintance with -the Oswald's, and that you also had an acquaintance with George De -Mohrenschildt, naming him in particular, although there are others I -will probably examine you about. But it is in those general areas that -I will proceed. - -Now you are at liberty to have counsel present should you so desire, -and since you don't appear to have anybody with you, I assume you do -not wish any counsel? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Your name is Everett D. Glover? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you reside in Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is your present residence? - -Mr. GLOVER. My present residence is 9838 Webbs Chapel Road, Dallas, 20. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided there, sir? - -Mr. GLOVER. Since January 1, of this year, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside immediately prior to that? - -Mr. GLOVER. 5723 Southwestern Boulevard. I forget the zone in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. How long had you resided there? - -Mr. GLOVER. Sometime around April 20, of 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. I will have to keep going back. Where did you live prior to -that? - -Mr. GLOVER. I lived at 4449 Potomac in Dallas also. It is in University -Park. - -Mr. JENNER. For what span of time? - -Mr. GLOVER. Span of time there, I don't have the figures right in my -mind, but approximately 2 years there. - -Mr. JENNER. That would take you back to sometime in 1961? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. We'd have to check these to be sure, this is -approximately. - -Mr. JENNER. That is sufficient. I will ask you this general question. -Over how long have you resided in Dallas or the Dallas area? - -Mr. GLOVER. Since 1955. June 2, 1955, I took a position with Socony -Mobil Oil Co. and came here to work on that day. I have lived here -since that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you married? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am married; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am married for the second time at the present -time. My former wife and a son by my former marriage are living in -Pennsylvania. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what country are you a native? - -Mr. GLOVER. United States. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born in the United States? - -Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How old are you? - -Mr. GLOVER. 47 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you born in the United States? - -Mr. GLOVER. I was born in Worcester, Mass. I resided in Millbury, -Mass., but I was actually born in the city of Worcester. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about your education, please. Elementary school and -high school and if you went beyond high school. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I went to college at North Clark University in -Worcester, Mass., and I later went to the University of Wisconsin. -I completed a master's degree there and a great deal of work on a -doctor's degree. - -Mr. JENNER. So you have a bachelor of arts degree? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And master's degree and you have completed a good deal of -work on a Ph. D.? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You were first married when? - -Mr. GLOVER. 1940. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then? - -Mr. GLOVER. At that time I was residing in Worcester, Mass. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your wife's maiden name? - -Mr. GLOVER. The name was Mary Elizabeth Butler. - -Mr. JENNER. She was a resident of Worcester, was she? - -Mr. GLOVER. She was a resident of Worcester. - -Mr. JENNER. And was a native-born American? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have by that marriage? - -Mr. GLOVER. I have one. - -Mr. JENNER. He is with his mother, is he? - -Mr. GLOVER. He is with his mother now in Pennsylvania; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That marriage was terminated in divorce when? - -Mr. GLOVER. In Texas last year, 1963, in June, I believe it was, the -29th. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, had you been separated from your wife prior to -that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had been separated. - -Mr. JENNER. When did the separation occur? - -Mr. GLOVER. The separation occurred on approximately September 1 of -1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then? - -Mr. GLOVER. I was residing at 4449 Potomac. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your wife leave this vicinity then? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she left this vicinity then. - -Mr. JENNER. And returned to where or went to where? - -Mr. GLOVER. She didn't return. The circumstances of her leaving were -that my son is very interested avocationally in ice skating, and he had -earned enough money selling the Times Herald, the local newspaper, to -take him for 1 summer's ice skating, and it so happened that he ended -up in Hershey, Pa., which has a teacher or pro who is very good, and -the circumstances just happened that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Indoor arena rink? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he stayed there for the summer and he wanted to stay -there beyond that time very badly. He wanted to continue his ice -skating under some such situation as he had there, and my wife and I -had not gotten along too well, and it seemed like a natural time to -make a separation, so she left and went to Pennsylvania during this -time at approximately the end of the summer and stayed there, and I -filed for a divorce. - -Again I am not sure of the actual date, but approximately December 1 -of that year, 1962. And the divorce was granted in the summer in 1963, -approximately June 29, of 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remarried when? - -Mr. GLOVER. I remarried August the 26th of this same year, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And remained in the same quarters, did you? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I moved about April 20 to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard -after having sold the house at 4449 Potomac, which I owned, and made -the divorce settlement. - -Then I moved to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard where I rented a house with -two colleagues of mine where I worked, who were all unattached, since -I had to move from 4449 Potomac. One moved in on December 1, 1962, and -another one on January 1, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Now when you and your wife separated, that is when she went -to Pennsylvania, Hershey, Pa., with her son for this period, did anyone -join you in your quarters as roommates or persons living with you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, these are the people I just referred to. One man, -Richard L. Pierce, who works with me in the same section of my -laboratory, joined me December 1, of 1962, and the second man, Volkmar -Schmidt, who came from Germany and worked with the company as a -geologist, came to live with me approximately January 1. - -It was an arrangement we tried out to see if there would be mutual -satisfaction. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a German derivation? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. What is yours? - -Mr. GLOVER. My background on that respect, my derivation would be -English on both sides. I know on the Glover side it is English and goes -back down to the 1700, but I don't know the other side very well. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What is your occupation, profession, business or -avocation? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, occupation is as a chemist working with the geology -group in the exploration section of Socony Mobil Oil Co., Field -Research Laboratory here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Your master's degree was in what? - -Mr. GLOVER. It was in soil science. - -Mr. JENNER. Involved chemistry? - -Mr. GLOVER. Involved chemistry of fine grain material such as soil, -sediments, and so forth. - -This is the reason that I am working where I am, because of the kind -of work I do, in the geology section. It is not soil per se, but using -techniques in dealing with problems similar to soil problems. - -Mr. JENNER. And in turn, related to the discovery or production or -recovery of oil? - -Mr. GLOVER. It is related particularly to the exploration for oil. That -is the study of the mechanical constituents of rocks in which the oil -is found. - -I would say involving research work in order to find some more easily -recognized signs of oil. That is the long term objective. - -Mr. JENNER. I would say this to you, sir. It is common that witnesses -can, especially in this type of examination where the witness sits -across the desk from a questioner, to drop his voice. So to the extent -that you can recall it, you won't do it all the time, keep your voice -up. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a Mr. George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. When and under what circumstances did you first become -acquainted with Mr. George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. Again this is connected with my ice skating activities -which I didn't mention. I mentioned my son's. - -One of my avocations is ice skating. I do not know the exact time, -but sometime in the period, I would say 1956 to 1959, when I have -been ice skating, I met Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on the ice rink skating -by herself. She skated a considerable time, maybe, probably, part of -a year, and then later she brought Mr. De Mohrenschildt there, and -that is the first acquaintance I had with them. This was a casual -acquaintance. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. This is the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she then married to Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. I have no way of knowing. I wouldn't have thought of this -particularly except in conversation with the FBI. By their reaction, -what he said, apparently there was some question about this, but I -wouldn't have known that myself. I assumed she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, in order that we are certain we have the same lady in -mind, did you learn what her first name was? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The name she wanted to be called was "Jon," the French -J-e-a-n-n-e. - -I didn't see it written down, but she insisted on her being called -"Jon," the French. - -Mr. JENNER. By American, it is Jeanne? - -Mr. GLOVER. Jeanne, right. - -Mr. JENNER. When you talk about ice skating, you mean figure skating? - -Mr. GLOVER. Figure skating; right. - -Mr. JENNER. This relationship, at least for a time, was relatively -casual? - -Mr. GLOVER. It was very casual. In fact, they did not seem very much -interested in other people. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance ripen eventually into a friendship, -or at least a closer relationship than that you have indicated? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, there are two phases of my acquaintance with them. -The first phase ended when they didn't come to the skating rink any -more, and I cannot recall when this was. But if it were necessary to -find out, I could possibly find out more in detail, because they joined -the Dallas Figure Skating Club which I belonged to, and it was after I -had belonged to that organization a year or so that they left. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me for the moment your best recollection as -to when the first period of time to which you have reference ended? - -Mr. GLOVER. Ended? - -Mr. JENNER. That is, the casual acquaintance. - -Mr. GLOVER. I really honestly don't know when that was. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can get at it this way. What is your present -recollection as to the intervening span in which you had either little -or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts? How long did that run? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know when I met them--I think I know when I met -them again. This was in connection with playing tennis. And that must -have been in the spring, I believe, of 1962, sometime in that period. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your former wife were still living together at that -time? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes, that's right; my former wife was still in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the intervening period when you had a -little or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts covered as much as a -couple of years? - -Mr. GLOVER. I would say that is what I think, but I could check this -point if necessary. - -Mr. JENNER. We will let you know as to whether we want you to do that. - -That acquaintance was then renewed under what circumstances? - -Mr. GLOVER. I went to a party at a friend's house one night. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is the friend? - -Mr. GLOVER. The man's name is Lauriston C. Marshall. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a new name to me. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, he is called Larry, but his name, I am quite sure, -was---- - -Mr. JENNER. L-a-u-r-i-s-t-o-n C. M-a-r-s-h-a-l-l? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. GLOVER. He lived in Garland here. - -Mr. JENNER. Garland, Tex.? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. This is not where I met the De Mohrenschildts, but -that is the connection. I was at his house and I met Sam Ballen. And -something was said about playing tennis, and it turns out that he likes -to play tennis and I also like to play tennis. I hadn't played very -much since I had been in Dallas, but I always wanted to play more than -I had a chance to, and he said, "How about tomorrow morning?" and I -agreed, okay. - -So when I went to play tennis the next morning, it turned out that the -other two people involved in this match of four people, doubles, was -the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. You played doubles in tennis with him the next morning, -Sunday morning? - -Mr. GLOVER. This sounds right. I believe it was a Saturday night party, -and I was playing Sunday morning. I believe that is what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And your friendship with the De Mohrenschildts blossomed? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, we played tennis an awful lot more. That was the -basis. - -Mr. JENNER. You say the double, the lady who played tennis with you on -that initial occasion, was the same lady who had accompanied Mr. De -Mohrenschildt earlier on the ice rink? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me, please, and I want you to tell me in your -own words. I will try not to interrupt you, or at least I will keep it -to a minimum, what you learned about George De Mohrenschildt first? - -Mr. GLOVER. You mean what I learned about him from my complete -acquaintance with him? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GLOVER. What he was like and so forth? - -Mr. JENNER. What he was like, what you learned from him, if you can -indicate information you received directly from him as to his travels, -if any, as to his work, as to any associations he had. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, it is pretty hard to produce some order out of it, -because I never got a complete picture. But he had apparently, and I -believe this to be true, had come back from a trip to South America. I -mean to Mexico where he had walked from the north edge of Mexico down -to Central America, to Panama. - -Mr. JENNER. Your information in this respect was obtained directly from -him? - -Mr. GLOVER. Directly from him and also by films which he had showing -his trip, and also the fact that he apparently corresponded with Sam -Ballen during the time that he had been down there, and that was -mentioned, the fact that he had corresponded. - -Mr. JENNER. Who mentioned it, Ballen or De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure about that, sir, but from one or the -other people, I am sure I got the distinct impression that they -corresponded. - -He sent letters to Sam Ballen during the time he was there, so I do -believe, and I have no reason not to believe, that he made such a trip, -seeing the film. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw the film? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You also talked to Mr. De Mohrenschildt, or he with you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had conversations with him about his trip to Mexico, -and he told you about it? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit the film? - -Mr. GLOVER. He exhibited the film. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt the lady called Jeanne and who -preferred to be called "Jon" (Jeanne)? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she present when the film was shown? - -Mr. GLOVER. She was present. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also had conversation with her? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she confirm, as well as Mr. De Mohrenschildt, their -trip, walking trip into Mexico? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the De Mohrenschildts, either of -them having any--having met any officials with the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GLOVER. During that trip? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GLOVER. No, sir; not that I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Not at all? - -Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no impression on that score, then? - -Mr. GLOVER. I cannot remember any such thing was said. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then, it is your impression that this was a -walking pleasure trip, a vacation, that sort of thing in which he and -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt traveled from the border--that would be the north -border of Mexico down as far as Panama? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes, but I would amend your statement a little bit. You -said pleasure trip. It was in a sense, the way I understood the reason -for this was, that De Mohrenschildt had a son and daughter by his, -according to him, I believe, last marriage. The son had died of cystic -fibrosis, and I had the impression that he was very much attached to -his son, and this was one of the reasons that he sort of threw up -everything. I had been given to believe he was in the oil consulting -business. - -Mr. JENNER. You were given to believe that De Mohrenschildt was in the -oil consulting business? - -Mr. GLOVER. Previous to that and after that time, too, and that he had -thrown everything up and done this. He said that he and someone else -started to make this trip at a much earlier time. I am not sure what -time it was, but it was a long time. Seems to me he said they tried to -drive a Model "T" Ford and hadn't been successful. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be quite a long time ago? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. That might be older than De Mohrenschildt is. I don't -know when he came here, really, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. GLOVER. But anyway, maybe it is a Model "A" Ford. I really am not -sure about that point. It doesn't sound right, a Model "T" Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. A Model "T," say that is my error, and the Model "A"---- - -Mr. GLOVER. Model "A" came in 1927 and 1928. - -Mr. JENNER. 1927, 1928, and 1929. I was about a junior in college then. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I am a little bit younger than that. I was 10 years -old in 1927, but I distinctly remember the Model "T's." I am not sure, -but the important thing as far as my recollection was, he said he -wanted to take this trip and started to take it with another fellow and -he didn't get very far, but then he this time did take the trip and the -feeling I had was the motivation was--he had been completely broken -up by his son dying and he wanted to do this a long time ago, he went -ahead and did it. - -And his wife wanted to do it with him and they did it. - -Mr. JENNER. So the impression you obtained from the conversation you -heard overall was that the trip was not motivated by any objective or -plan to have any contact with any persons connected with the Soviet -Union, or representing the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get any such impression. - -One other thing, I did get the impression, he mentioned specifically -that he had some business along the way, which was looking at old -mining areas. - -Now I got the impression, although it was a hazy one, that he was -actually being paid by some private concern to look at old mining areas -as he passed through there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you have any impression of any other trips -that Mr. De Mohrenschildt made outside of this country? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. He told me that after the war he was on a, I don't -know whether he was connected--somehow he said with a State Department -venture which he was doing something with regard to advising in oil -matters in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. And that he had gone to Yugoslavia? - -Mr. GLOVER. He had gone to Yugoslavia, he told me that. He described -the living there when he was there, drinking lots of wine in Yugoslavia -with women and so forth, and it wasn't very descriptive, but from what -he said, I got a very distinct impression he had been there, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression that he was married at that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. I did. In fact, the impression I have, and I am not -sure exactly where it all comes from, when I first met Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt, she was alone, and her husband was never with her, and -she was not very cordial at all. - -You saw someone skating around and you'd just say a word and she was -not particularly cordial. - -And even later, I am not sure exactly the amount of time, but maybe a -season of skating, he appeared. - -And I assumed afterwards, I am not sure what basis I had, that this was -the time that he was away in Yugoslavia, and he came back. And I think -they referred to that afterwards, as if that were the case. - -Mr. JENNER. In this early period was anything else said to you -affirmatively that Jeanne or "Jon" De Mohrenschildt was his wife at -that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. When I come to think of it, I don't know of any specific -instance where there was a big point made of them being married, but I -assumed, since they were living together, and I just assumed that. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know they were living together? - -Mr. GLOVER. At what time? - -Mr. JENNER. The earlier period. - -Mr. GLOVER. The earlier period, no. The later period I didn't live too -far away from them. I would go to their house and have a glass of beer -after the tennis match, and later I went to their house quite often. - -Mr. JENNER. The tennis match was the second period? - -Mr. GLOVER. The first period I don't have any proof whatsoever except -it seemed to me they were giving the same name. - -Mr. JENNER. They were? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. Now that could be checked with the Dallas -Figure Skating Club where they were members. I assumed they were -husband and wife. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to George De Mohrenschildt's past in -connection with whether he had been married more than once? - -Mr. GLOVER. He said he had been married four times, including this. - -Mr. JENNER. Including the marriage to Jeanne or Jon? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So he had had three marriages prior to this time? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is what he said. He used to talk about that quite -often, make remarks to the fact that he had been married four times. - -Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a son who died. Did he say anything -about having any other children? - -Mr. GLOVER. A daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. A daughter? - -Mr. GLOVER. Same wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about whether she was alive or dead? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he talked quite a bit about her. - -Mr. JENNER. As being alive or dead? - -Mr. GLOVER. As being alive. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion eventually in which there was a -discussion in which he indicated that she had been--she had become -deceased? - -Mr. GLOVER. No. He never indicated anything to me that she had become -deceased. He talked quite a bit about her and was still talking about -custody of the daughter who was remaining with the mother, who was -trying to prevent any possible change in custody. That was right up to -the last I knew him. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether at any time you stated to the FBI -that he had two children and they had both died? - -Mr. GLOVER. I stated that he had two children? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GLOVER. And they had both died? - -Mr. JENNER. Did die, yes. - -Mr. GLOVER. I did not state such. - -Mr. JENNER. Had two children by the marriage to Wynne Sharples. - -Mr. GLOVER. The last name Sharples is correct, and I remember the -nickname "Deedee" of the woman who he said he was married to by whom he -had two children. - -I did not say to the FBI that he had two children who died. I have -said he had two children one of which died who apparently had cystic -fibrosis. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, did he mention any other relative of his? - -Mr. GLOVER. I was asked this question by the FBI, and I believe he -mentioned--I know he mentioned a brother--a brother who taught school, -and I believe it is Dartmouth, N.H., and I think he taught history. - -Anyhow, he taught some subject or related subject on liberal arts, but -I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. He did mention Dartmouth? - -Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Could have--could he have mentioned Princeton instead of -Dartmouth? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't think so, because I remember it being in that area -up in the upper New England States, somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of Jeanne or "Jon's" background? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The impression I got of her background was that -she was of White Russian stock and came through China where she was -married, and then came to this country. That is the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. That she had come from Russia and gone to China? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't know whether anyone said White Russia, but -whether they said that or not, I got the impression that she had come -originally from Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything about--perhaps I'd better so pursue -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had come through China? - -Mr. GLOVER. She lived in China and was brought up there as a young -girl, married, presumably, a Chinese man, and then came to this -country. That is the story I got, and apparently from what she said, he -did not adjust. - -Mr. JENNER. She came here with her husband? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that he was a Chinese? - -Mr. GLOVER. I had that impression. - -Mr. JENNER. After they arrived here, the husband did not adjust well? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right, and it led to their breakup. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were then divorced? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or at least broke up, as far as you know? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. And that her marriage to George De Mohrenschildt was her -second marriage? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had any -business or occupation herself? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes, I did. She had worked some time during--at the time -that I first met her, she worked as a designer of clothes. - -Mr. JENNER. For what company? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't know what company, but she worked here in Dallas -at the time. I believe at the time she joined the Figure Skating Club, -someone learned that. I don't think she told me particularly, but -someone, that she did this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation on the subject with her -which served to confirm the report that you had obtained from someone -else? That is, that she worked as a designer here in Dallas. - -Mr. GLOVER. I cannot recall at the time of the first meeting with her, -but at a later time, from things that were said, I am quite sure that -she referred to that time when she worked, yes, here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your general impression of her. What kind of person -was and is she? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, the most obvious thing about her that I can recall -was her very, very great desire to help and dominate people, to help -solve their problems, is the thing that always impressed me about her. - -She had one daughter, which I haven't mentioned, apparently by this -previous marriage, who grew up and who I met one time when she was -passing through. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, passing through Dallas? - -Mr. GLOVER. With her husband. That was during the later period. - -Mr. JENNER. She was married and lived somewhere else in this country? - -Mr. GLOVER. All I know is that daughter and husband came from a Mexican -trip and were going to Alaska. - -And she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she -had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to -sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs. - -She tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at -which time, as one would say, I told her off, told her that I had my -own ideas about what I wanted to do about the situation and was not -interested in hers at all. But that is the most outstanding impression -I have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange -things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of her, please. - -Mr. GLOVER. Physically, I am depending somewhat on some pictures she -showed. According to her, when she showed pictures in the album. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't mean--are you relating to the pictures to describe -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; well, I will just leave that out, if you prefer. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical -shape. - -Mr. JENNER. About how old? - -Mr. GLOVER. She looked like she was about 40 years old. She was -accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. We played -tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was -beginning to get quite a lot of fat. - -Mr. JENNER. What about coloration? - -Mr. GLOVER. Color of hair was brown, medium brown. I don't remember -people's eyes very well. It sort of seems to me like they were blue. I -am not sure. Her height was medium height. - -Mr. JENNER. Medium for a woman and medium for a man differ--what would -you say, five two, or five three or five five? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not very conscious. I would say five five or five six, -maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall -you are? - -The REPORTER. I am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about -five five with heels. - -Mr. JENNER. Having observed the reporter, what is your present -recollection about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's height. Is she taller or -shorter? - -Mr. GLOVER. I would say her height without her heels or anything was at -least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six -which I said, or possibly taller than that. I am not very sure. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was inclined to be on the heavy side? - -Mr. GLOVER. Slightly. She was getting heavy. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you say she weighed, offhand? - -Mr. GLOVER. She talked about that when we were playing tennis. I can't -remember. I really don't know. Maybe, I would say, 110 to 120, or so. - -Mr. JENNER. She was five five and she weighed 110 pounds? She would be -awfully thin. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, she must have weighed more than that. I am not very -conscious about that. - -(Comments off the record.) - -Mr. GLOVER. Maybe she would be 130 or so. Maybe she weighed a little -bit more than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt speak to you of his background? - -Mr. GLOVER. He spoke somewhat of it. I didn't get a very clear picture -of the exact tracings of his background. I got a picture of him having -been born in Sweden. He said he came from Sweden. And having lived in -Russia for a short time, and then having left there. And the next thing -I remember him saying was that he fought with the Polish National Army -sometime in the Second World War, and had left the army. Now I am not -quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when Hitler -invaded, or some other time. I am not sure. It must have been then, I -guess, but that is the hazy impression I have of that part of it. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time of the invasion of Poland by Hitler, which was -roughly September of 1939, De Mohrenschildt then left Poland? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, he left the Polish Army at the same time. I really -don't know for sure when that was. I didn't think very much about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say he came directly to this country at that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not have any impression of him saying he came directly -here, no. The next thing I remember about his telling his background -was that he came here to this country. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Texas? - -Mr. GLOVER. First he came to New York, according to his story. And I -remember one comment he made about that. He was wined and dined and -passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine, -but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. And the next -period I remember is that he was at the University of Texas, and I -assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are not so sure about that? You have the impression -that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I assumed that he had had at least some school -knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in -general. - -Mr. JENNER. He did say that he attended the university in this State? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he said he attended the University of Texas, I am -quite sure. At least I got that impression. I am not sure of his exact -words. He talked about being a student, so I guess I just assumed that. -I don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time -student. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe George De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. GLOVER. He is a heavy set rather Mr. Atlas type. - -Mr. JENNER. Atlas or Adonis? - -Mr. GLOVER. I notice that he is still around, Mr. Atlas. Very healthy -looking specimen. Tall and heavy set. Little bit clumsy in his -movements. - -Mr. JENNER. A big man, in other words? - -Mr. GLOVER. Big man, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And handsome? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, that is a matter of what you call handsome. - -Mr. JENNER. You described him in that respect. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think he was a, he might be called handsome by -somebody. I would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen. - -Mr. JENNER. Color of hair? - -Mr. GLOVER. Hair was some kind of brown. - -Mr. JENNER. Had a good crop of hair? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his personality? - -Mr. GLOVER. He was a very great mixture of things. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it. - -Mr. GLOVER. He was a very cynical sort of person. He was a Bohemian -sort of person. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but -what do you mean by "Bohemian type of person"? - -Mr. GLOVER. I mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way he -wanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very -much about what anyone said. - -He wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. He wanted to dress -the way he wanted to. He was not very conforming in his physical -dress or in his appearance or anything else. But the main thing that -impressed me most about him was his immaturity. He acted like a fellow -who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world -and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which -occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and -wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. He is sort of a -revolution inside of him. It never stops. He was sort of a rebel. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies -and had never grown up? - -Mr. GLOVER. I would say that he was very much so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In your time and my time, we talked about "Joe College." Is -that expression familiar to you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he that kind of a person, breezy? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; very much so. Very outspoken. His language sometimes -wasn't very nice. He said anything he wanted to say. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. Talked about himself a great deal and what his -accomplishments were and so forth? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he did. He was somewhat of a braggart. He did, like -many, many people, he embroidered things. I had the feeling one could -never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. He was like a -lot of people, he embroidered things. Not so much a braggart exactly as -just one who just talked a lot about everything. I think, yes; he was -sort of a braggart in a way. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you say were his attitudes and his -relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies? - -Mr. GLOVER. Female sex? - -Mr. JENNER. Overall attitude. - -Mr. GLOVER. His overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex, -seemingly, the female sex. He used to talk about every female he saw -go by. He would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female -he saw going down the street. And his attitude toward males, as far as -I know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that -subject. - -Mr. JENNER. But he showed considerable interest in ladies? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of -a preoccupation thing with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was -in their presence? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. He would act -very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. I don't -know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. I never saw any evidence -of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me your present overall impression of George -De Mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered -things he said. And also from his political opinions, which he gave out -from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you give the circumstances and your--first give -me your overall impression as to his political views. And I mean -political in the sense of, first, I mean political in the sense of the -views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in -particular, I mean as against any political party. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, he said--the main thing there is his cynical attitude -towards things. I don't think he respected any kind of authority. I -think that he is sort of apolitical. He sort of resented having to -conform very much. But his political views, as far as our system versus -communism, for instance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. He made -remarks which suggested that he didn't like the way the Communists were -treated. Very pointed remarks, sometimes. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't like the way the Communists were treated? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he didn't like the treatment that some Communists were -given. I can give you an example. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean in this country or in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I was thinking of outside this country. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. GLOVER. So I would say that the whole question---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that respect which gave you that -impression? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I remember that at the time of Castro and Cuba, when -the incident occurred of removing the Russian missiles---- - -Mr. JENNER. Missile sites? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was very much upset about this, and he was very -angry at Kennedy for doing what he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say, as best you can give us in substance? I -know you can't remember the words, but in substance, what he said. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, the substance of what he said, he didn't like what -Kennedy was doing at all. And the reason he gave, as far as I can -remember, was the possible involvement in a nuclear war. - -Mr. JENNER. You seek to imply that De Mohrenschildt was opposed to what -Kennedy was doing, not because of dislike for Castro, but rather that -he feared we would be, those actions might involve us in a nuclear war? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, in this particular point, yes. He also remarked, -which shows that he had sympathy with Castro--it is not possible for me -to separate those exactly, but in this particular thing, I remember one -time being very, very excited about the missile business in Cuba, and -this business came up that that would lead us into a nuclear war. In -other words, he was suggesting that he was sympathetic with Castro, at -least I thought so--well, Castro is all right, he can't do any harm, he -is just a little guy, and this is the general impression I got. Again, -those may not be the exact expressions that he may have used. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me an example that he was sympathetic with -what Castro represented? - -Mr. GLOVER. He certainly never, in my acquaintance with him, tried to -make out a case for the Communist system against our system. It was -just sort of his shouting off about this thing I just described. And -also I remember one very distinctly, which I told the FBI. One time -there was a cartoon in the newspaper which pictured Khrushchev with the -face of a pig, a caricature, and George was very, very indignant about -them doing that. And I said to George, well, he does look like a pig. -And after all, the caricature has been around since the days of the -famous Frenchman---- - -Mr. JENNER. Lautrec? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; it isn't Lautrec. It's Daumier. I don't know, but that -is what I was thinking, and he does look like one. And so he showed on -this point that he resented something very much about this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever get into any political discussions with De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. There is not very much I remember, because as I say, there -was never any real discussion about such issues, that amounted to -anything, but there were occasions when he seemed to agree to what I -consider a reasonable view. - -For instance, things in Russia at the present time. I recall one -instance once before that there was a discussion--whether it came from -a remark of a public figure in the press or somebody else who may have -been present, but there was a discussion about the fact that under the -Khrushchev regime things had loosened up somewhat in Russia. Whoever -was responsible for it, I think it was a public figure at the time who -was talking, said that it was very true, things had loosened up in -Russia, but how does the Russian feel about this. The answer was that -the Russians didn't feel that it is necessarily going to stay that way -very long. I remember talking about this in the presence of George and -he seemed to be quite agreeable on this idea. - -Mr. JENNER. When is the last time you saw De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. I saw him sometime in the early part of May, I believe. I -moved into my house at 5723 Southwestern about the 20th of April, and I -had taken all his furniture which he had, looking for a place to store, -and we three fellows were needing furniture, because I sent all my -furniture to my former wife, all the good furniture, so he was going to -let us use the furniture for as long as we wanted, to save him storage -fees and help us out. We moved it over, and then he finally, on leaving -to go to Haiti, before he was going, he dropped by the house sometime -in the day he departed, I think it was in the last few days of May, -first week or two---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. 1963, right. He came by the house looking for something -which had been stored in some of the boxes, and they were loaded with -their trailer and cargo to load on the boat in Florida where they going -to take off from. They were sending goods by boat and flying themselves. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you have seen him? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is the last time I have seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you heard from him at any time? - -Mr. GLOVER. Have I heard from him? - -Mr. JENNER. What has been the extent of that contact, first? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, he wrote to me and his wife wrote to me telling about -how things were going in Haiti, and I have replied very little to him. -I have replied, I don't know how many times, maybe once when they first -went down there, and I replied after January 1, when I moved. I shipped -most of his furniture to a storage, keeping some back that I can still -use in the new house, and I wrote to him telling him, I told him I -didn't need the furniture, and I haven't corresponded with him very -much. - -Mr. JENNER. In that correspondence he--has he given you any information -as to what they are doing in Haiti? Did you have any information before -they left for Haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going -to do? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I have the information from talking very much about -his Haiti venture, and the impression I got was somewhat hazy, but the -first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for -chemicals and minerals. - -Mr. JENNER. For what? - -Mr. GLOVER. Minerals of economic value. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do -this work, or was it independent? - -Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that he was the one who was running -the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman -that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing -this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set -up business ventures. That is what the other part involved, and I had -the impression that this all tied together. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a -joint venture of some kind? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really -running the show, and I also had the impression, which he didn't -emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was -any money needed. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us your knowledge and also your impression of the De -Mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in Dallas? - -Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that they didn't have very much money, -because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting -business had gone down pretty much. This was about the time when the -companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts, -and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in -getting any oil consultant jobs. This was the impression I got from him -and he didn't do very much, except I got the impression that he might -have owned some leases, and he---- - -Mr. JENNER. Oil leases? - -Mr. GLOVER. Oil leases. And he talked about one particular one where -there was litigation about it. And I got the impression that he didn't -have very much money, except possibly some money coming in from the -oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. They didn't have anything -but very simple food, simple clothes. They hadn't bought anything new. -They had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they -did, however, have a nice car. But they didn't spend a lot of money and -didn't seem to have a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say they attempted to live frugally? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say they attempted to live frugally. - -Mr. JENNER. Speaking there about attire, in this connection, as -evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall -mentioning to the FBI their tennis clothing and from time to time -other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being -appropriate? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all -the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which -the lower half was sort of Bikini like. And George just wore a pair -of shorts. That is accepted attire for a man tennis player. We used -to go to the Dallas Athletic Country Club east of the city to play, -sometimes, because Sam Ballen had a membership, and she was told it is -against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about Sam Ballen. Who is he? - -Mr. GLOVER. Sam Ballen, I met him in the way I told you, and he told -me that he had been in the stock market business in New York, and came -here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library -for oil well logs. These are the records of the physical measurements -made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this. -I have known him for the past 2 years--I met him actually when I told -you; at Lauriston Marshall's house sometime in 1962, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Ballen a friend of Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GLOVER. Ballen is a friend of the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they were closely acquainted? - -Mr. GLOVER. Fairly well, yes; closely acquainted. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you play tennis together with Mr. Ballen and the De -Mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? Did you continue to have this -acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have -testified? - -Mr. GLOVER. Very much so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions thereafter--social events, parties, -visits in the home, and what not, that Sam Ballen participated? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were occasions, although the main association -was that we played tennis together. We made a very good team. We have -about the same degree of skill at it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he reside here in Dallas? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he does. - -Mr. JENNER. He still stays--lives here? - -Mr. GLOVER. As far as I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of a company with which he is associated? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not know the name offhand. - -Mr. JENNER. And that his name is spelled B-a-l-l-e-n, and his first -name is Samuel? - -Mr. GLOVER. I just call him Sam. I don't know whether his name is -Samuel or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about the De Mohrenschildts' views -toward religion? - -Mr. GLOVER. They are very much against religion, I am quite sure. They -don't think very much of organized religion at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information more definite than that? Are -they atheistic, are they just--don't have any feeling one way or the -other? - -Mr. GLOVER. Be hard for me to say. I would think probably that -atheistic would be more the correct term, but I don't recall specific -remarks that they made. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any -political affiliation of the De Mohrenschildts together or separate? - -Mr. GLOVER. Any kind of affiliation? - -Mr. JENNER. Political or otherwise. - -Mr. GLOVER. Political or otherwise. Well, business, he belongs to the -Petroleum Club. He talks about being down there. And I don't know of -any other organizations. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that, -because of his son. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a charity organization? - -Mr. GLOVER. A charity organization. And they were very active in this, -because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very -active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get -money for this purpose. I don't know of any other organizations. I -remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at -the--I don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for -retarded children over in the Cedar Springs area, which it seems that -a Mexican-American organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to -go to that. I don't know if they were members or not. I think that was -sort of a Mexican-American, I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any -political organizations? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not have any impression that he belonged to any. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they express what their politics were? That is, say, as -between being Republican or Democrat? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall anything very strong on that subject. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you, during your time here in Dallas, become acquainted -with Marina and Lee Oswald? - -Mr. GLOVER. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state when it was that you first became -acquainted with either or both of them. - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to give a specific time. I met Marina first -at the home of George De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred -and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting -was held, about that? That is, whether this came all of a sudden -without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion -with the De Mohrenschildts prior to that time. Just tell me the whole -circumstances leading up to the moment you met Marina. - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to state a specific time, but of course it -was somewhere, I am not really able to say whether it was sometime in -December, or in January, or sometime in that time, or in the first part. - -Mr. JENNER. What year? - -Mr. GLOVER. This would be the year 1962-63. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you -separated. Was that in December of 1962, did you say? - -Mr. GLOVER. No, we separated before September 1, 1962. I am not able -to say when she (Marina) came to the De Mohrenschildts. Marina came -to the De Mohrenschildts several times. The first time I met her and -subsequent times, she was also there. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been--has there been any conversation about the -Oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met -Marina? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure about this, but I would think, yes; -they had mentioned her. - -Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts had mentioned her? - -Mr. GLOVER. Had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but -I really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before -I came over there. I rather think they mentioned she was coming there -previous to my meeting her. - -Mr. JENNER. What did they say about her in advance of the meeting? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, they told about, this is as far as I remember, that -they told about her coming over here with Oswald and, as far as I -remember the impression I got from De Mohrenschildt--it might not have -been entirely from him, it may have come later--Oswald had gone to -Russia to live and had become a citizen. That is the impression I got. -And that he had decided he didn't like Russia and he came back here and -brought his Russian-born wife with him, and were living in Fort Worth, -and they were having trouble getting along, the Oswalds were. - -Mr. JENNER. Getting along with each other? - -Mr. GLOVER. Getting along with each other. - -Mr. JENNER. You remember that distinctly? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I remember that very distinctly, because they were -trying to find a place for Marina to stay. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned all this through conversations with the De -Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And either or both of them told you that the Oswalds were -not getting along? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that they were seeking what for them? - -Mr. GLOVER. They were seeking a place particularly for Marina to stay. -She had a baby. And seeking a place for her to stay where she could -just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with -her, Lee Oswald didn't get along, and I am not sure whether he had lost -his job or something. It was suggested it was financial difficulties, -the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place -for her where she could live. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of the De Mohrenschildts speak Russian? - -Mr. GLOVER. So far as I know, both of them spoke Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; spoke Russian, what I assumed to be Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your command, if any, of the Russian language? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know "Da," but I know very little about it. I have -started to study Russian in connection with scientific work, because it -is very valuable to be able to speak Russian, and I have always wanted -to learn to speak Russian, but somehow I never got to do this. It is -very slight, actually, and they both, as far as I know, spoke Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that -you met Marina on this first occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure again as to all the details, but I -believe that it was this way. That they told about her and that, I came -over there one night when she was there. I might have been invited to -dinner when she was there, or I might have just come over when she was -there, and they called me during the day and said, "Glover, come over -and meet this woman." - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that either George or Jeanne called -you and asked you to come over to their home to meet Marina? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am quite sure that he invited me to come over there, -because that is usually the way. They were always inviting me to come -over. - -Mr. JENNER. And your impression, this was an evening or during the -daytime? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come -and stay for a day. It might be in the evening or it might have been on -a weekend during the daytime. My impression was, it was in the evening. - -Mr. JENNER. But your impression also was that this time that she had -been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm just asking you what your impression was at that time. - -Mr. GLOVER. At that time that I first saw her? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the De -Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. GLOVER. My impression was that she probably had, but I really -couldn't be sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything said that evening indicating how she had reached -the De Mohrenschildt's home? - -Mr. GLOVER. You mean just physically brought there? - -Mr. JENNER. Had they, the De Mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? Had -she gotten there by bus herself? Had she gotten a cab, or how did she -get there? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember specifically how she had been brought -there. - -Mr. JENNER. That subject was not raised so as to give you the -impression one way or the other, is that correct? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, I -am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, I -had the impression that she was living in Fort Worth at the time, and -I know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time, -I volunteered, since I had a car, to take her down to the bus station -with the De Mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to Fort Worth, -and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we -took her over to Fort Worth. But I am not sure whether that was this -time or another time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then in that connection that -there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or -that she was capable of doing so? - -Mr. GLOVER. That she was capable, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she knew enough about bus travel between Fort Worth -and Dallas and the location of the De Mohrenschildt home so that she, -unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, at least go to the Fort Worth bus. I'm not sure about -whether they would pick her up or what. That is the impression I got -from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to -leave by bus. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present? Yourself, Marina, and the two De -Mohrenschildts on this occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you can recall? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so, but I could not be a hundred percent -sure. I believe that is the way it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Have the De Mohrenschildts said anything to you about how -they had become acquainted with the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. They had not said anything specifically, but again, I had -the impression that because they were Russian speaking and knew some -of the other people around the area who were Russian speaking, they -learned from people they knew in Fort Worth of this Russian girl who -was here in this country. - -Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did they say about their interest in her -beyond, let's say, pure curiosity? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is really the extent of what they ever said, that -they were curious, and also trying to help her out. This was right in -character with Jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such -situations. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she a generous person in that respect? - -Mr. GLOVER. I think you would call it generous although you have to -realize this is a double-edged sword. People sometimes do things in -order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do -things out of the goodness of their heart, and I think it was one of -the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. Maybe this -is my male bias coming into it. - -Mr. JENNER. But in any event, they were, on the surface at least, -cordial, and seeking to help her? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you detect that that was an active and not merely a -passive effort on their part? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I felt it was an active thing. - -Mr. JENNER. They were pursuing it with some vigor? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's take George in particular. Was it characteristic of -him? Was he a generous man and wanted to help others? - -Mr. GLOVER. Much less so, I would say, than Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I -rather would attribute it to her. Maybe it is my male bias coming out, -blaming it on Jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he -went along with this too, and there were several other people I met -there who they were trying to be good to. I think they were trying -to do this to help. And shortly after my former wife left and I was -by myself, I think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do -something to help me out. - -Mr. JENNER. You met her on this occasion. How many additional occasions -were there? - -Mr. GLOVER. I can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she -came several times to the De Mohrenschildt house. - -Mr. JENNER. Alone? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she came several times alone, and I would say two or -three times I saw her there. - -Mr. JENNER. And each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even -more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not -accompanied on any of those occasions by Lee Oswald? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the length of this visit that you had on the first -occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not really sure of the time, but the impression I had, -it was in the evening, and again I am not sure which one of the times, -but the impression I had, it was in the evening that I was over there, -either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. Well, we took, -maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around 9 o'clock -or something like this, to get a bus to Fort Worth. Whether this was -the first time, I really can't be sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she and her husband were living -together at that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was my impression. I am not really sure now whether -anything was said to the contrary on that or not. My impression was -that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the -impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her -husband? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I think this is subsequent to this first time I met -her. Whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay -with someone here in the Dallas area. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know the name? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not remember the name of the people, but they had -arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as I recall, a -fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name Elena Hall trigger your recollection? - -Mr. GLOVER. Elena Hall? - -Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall ever having heard that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r? - -Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be very sure about that. They might have -mentioned a name, but I do not recall. They mentioned the names of -quite a number of people to me, and I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Marina on this first -occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent -person caught up in the situation. Although I have very little to -go on, and I could not communicate with her, only through the De -Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak any English on that occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. She spoke practically none. No English. She understood a -little bit that people said in English. - -Mr. JENNER. But she did not speak it? - -Mr. GLOVER. She couldn't speak English. It was very difficult for me to -get any real good impression from her. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was quite young? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was quite young. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's say this is February of 1963, did you say that was, -or March? - -Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime in the first part of the year. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was probably in January. That would be my best -recollection. It was during that time. It might have been later than -that. I am hazy. The only thing I have to go by is, I learned later -after discussion of the visit of Oswald and his wife to our house, I -learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place -in the latter part of February. - -Now I did not recall, I just talked with the other people who lived -in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. And -other people present recalled this, so this is how I figured the whole -business. And I know I met Marina previous to that time. - -I know I was away for a week in February when I went on a business trip -to Pennsylvania, and so I assume it was somewhere in January, but I -really do not remember. - -Again, if I had to recall those events, I might be able to. I can -remember some of the events, but I am not very sure about it. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you meet Marina after this occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, again, I am not sure at all about those occasions. -She would come and stay at the house, and if I came in from playing -tennis with George, she might have been there. This may have happened -two or three times. - -Mr. JENNER. There came an occasion, did there not, in which you met Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; when I met Lee Oswald the first time, was at their -house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany the De Mohrenschildts on that occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that and how did that arise, and what was the -circumstance? - -Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I can remember about this, is again to fix -this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, Oswald and -his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late February, -so it must have been previous to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the date February 22, 1963, refresh your recollection -as to the occasion they came to your home? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think I remember in the conversation with the FBI -they mentioned a date about Washington's Birthday. - -Mr. JENNER. It is not Lincoln's? - -Mr. GLOVER. I think it was Washington's Birthday, but I don't remember -dates, so I had no actual recollection of the specific date. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is Washington's Birthday. [Checking calendar.] - -Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it -was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. - -Mr. JENNER. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday. - -Mr. GLOVER. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous -to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time. - -Mr. JENNER. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you -set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was -unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There might have been some additional occasions when you -saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your -first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald? - -Mr. GLOVER. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two -Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people--I was included--to -their house. - -Mr. JENNER. About when was this? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and -his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a -week before that. - -Mr. JENNER. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several -times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner, -when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was -present. I am sure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald -and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt. - -Mr. JENNER. He was then living with you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I -have just a poor impression as to whether---- - -Mr. JENNER. What about Pierce? - -Mr. GLOVER. Pierce was not there, I know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen? - -Mr. GLOVER. He was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know Fredricksen? - -Mr. GLOVER. You are talking about the first meeting? I know -Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works -also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were -additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their -names? - -Mr. GLOVER. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and -I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that -well. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a large party? - -Mr. GLOVER. There were quite a number of people for the small -apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people. - -Mr. JENNER. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more -people in addition to these you have named? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely -wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Richmond? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called -him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is -Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He -may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been -there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party? - -Mr. GLOVER. Sort of a dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression -of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did -anything impress you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of -things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly -well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair -of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were -dressed up. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though this was in February 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was -informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was -also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more. -Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to -some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember -what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they -were different people than a lot of other people. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be true of each of them? - -Mr. GLOVER. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't -remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little -girl with a baby over on the bed sofa. - -Mr. JENNER. She brought the child with her? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again, -I am not a hundred percent sure. - -Mr. JENNER. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with -her? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe she always had her child with her. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had -the child with her? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion? - -Mr. GLOVER. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very -little. - -Mr. JENNER. English or Russian? - -Mr. GLOVER. No, I don't remember whether there was any conversation in -Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any -myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked -with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked -English. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language? - -Mr. GLOVER. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen -and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a -course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory, -a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take, -but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who -continued. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and -Pierce? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the--I am quite -sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the -teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas -who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe -he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was -teaching on the side. - -Mr. JENNER. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not? - -Mr. GLOVER. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he -is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife -does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't -recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen -ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think, -was related to a woman who--I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons -later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil -company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do -not remember. - -Mr. JENNER. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis? - -Mr. GLOVER. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite -sure--I can't remember whether it was Voshinin--it is not the Voshinin -that teaches at SMU. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a different one? - -Mr. GLOVER. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU. - -Mr. JENNER. Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial -meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, the story from the beginning that the De -Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't -talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me. - -In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't -believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did -and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I -mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow -was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily -possible for a person to do this, that this made sense. - -In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The -thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where -I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what -he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known -by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he -were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he -would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the -FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written -to me quite recently. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. GLOVER. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been -checked by the FBI---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have it? - -Mr. GLOVER. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated -in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't -remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter, -but words to the effect that they passed on him, or he was harmless, -or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from -their point of view. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made -an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald was all right? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by -your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not -in my words. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of -his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated -specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about -Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was -acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact -way he put it. It is in the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that -subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time -when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting -her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect, -that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they -didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he -checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect. - -Mr. JENNER. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently -you made a mistake. Do you recall that? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In this connection, what do you mean by that? - -Mr. GLOVER. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of -assuming that a man in his situation--of assuming that, because this -man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had -brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would -know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I -felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI -thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake -when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed -that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this -conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22, -1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them? - -Mr. GLOVER. I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls -or had any contact with them? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion -that you met him? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't -really talk to him very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education, -or lack of it? - -Mr. GLOVER. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had -a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life. - -Mr. JENNER. Very much in his life in the way of material things? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Or very much in the way of an education? - -Mr. GLOVER. Material, educational, and spiritual. - -Mr. JENNER. Spiritual or education or material? - -Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that -down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does -not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him -very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting -at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from -that total rather than any detailed thing he said. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what -your impression of Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I -am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I -am trying to fix a cutoff period. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first -place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was -not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not -satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when -he came back, so he was very maladjusted. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the -impression that he was generally a maladjusted person? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude -that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and -political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person -of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for -travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you -moved? - -Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a -capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal -word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He -obviously didn't get along with his wife. He was very---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in -her presence? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the -description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a -very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed -things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This -includes his relationship to other people, like his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring -out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts -said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the -Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived -in regard to that. They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say -community, I mean a circle of people. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence -of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De -Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they -didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into -the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And -he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the -picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. And such people who -cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are -not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife. - -This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De -Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the -Oswalds being antagonistic to each other. - -Mr. JENNER. Now this first occasion then was an evening at the De -Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior -notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and -met them? - -Mr. GLOVER. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew in advance? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe they said when they called that these people were -going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that -struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening? - -Mr. GLOVER. I'm not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Or at least a language that was not English? - -Mr. GLOVER. I really couldn't be sure on that point. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I -believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that at your home? - -Mr. GLOVER. That was at my home. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing, -and who was there. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this -first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar -Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and -we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow, -like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an -unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my -experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the -fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also -said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of -that. Who made the statement to you? - -Mr. GLOVER. One of the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle -remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it -several times? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In talking to you about the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. They did say collectively--I mean--they did say -affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse -to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the -English language? - -Mr. GLOVER. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now. - -Mr. GLOVER. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an -acquaintance of mine---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine? - -Mr. GLOVER. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the -Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had -members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I -remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56, -I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the -Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing -some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more -than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with -the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs -around the town. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known him prior to this time? - -Mr. GLOVER. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the -church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe -she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church. -Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I -remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing -group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the -singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this kind of a madrigal group? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the -membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead about your party. - -Mr. GLOVER. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few -occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking -with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party, -at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was -going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she -was trying to brush up on the Russian, on--or maybe I am just thinking -she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really -know--I think at that time I was aware of the fact she had majored in -Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's -wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her, -and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be -interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said -she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent -that you knew about them at that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am sure I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or -knowledge of the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was -brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as -Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about -the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At -the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, -Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak Russian? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty -MacDonald? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a -hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us, -that were living together. I am sure he was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were -separated? - -Mr. GLOVER. I was. - -Mr. JENNER. As of that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited -him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her -because of the Russian. - -Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the -situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he -said he would come and he came. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen? - -Mr. GLOVER. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression -at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had -taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school -and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive -he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian -and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him. - -I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I -talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement. - -Mr. JENNER. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as -to who attended your party? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I don't call it a party. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop -in? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were -going somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the discussion take place--were there any discussions -during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his -political views? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were discussions. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about them. - -Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may -be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, -but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned -this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall -impression--he was apparently a Marxist. - -Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words -himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce -or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what -a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their -style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else -present said he was a Marxist---- - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any, -between Marxism and Communism? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called -Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist -theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't -like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him. - -Mr. JENNER. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure -up to those theories? - -Mr. GLOVER. Apparently so. - -Mr. JENNER. His so-called ideals? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, he had--what he had come back to here in -America didn't measure up to what he---- - -Mr. GLOVER. Apparently. He said so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on -this occasion? - -Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the -impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he -said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all -to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't -think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in -the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American -system measured up to his ideals. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in -Russia? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there was considerable. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some -kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I -don't remember really too many strong impressions. - -The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were -the--was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia -after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was -the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or -conversation with his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. That occurred at this meeting at your house? - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe so, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call -them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that -arranged? - -Mr. GLOVER. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived. -By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and -they were living in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De -Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone -number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone -number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the -house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he -would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De -Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address -and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to -throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses, -I copied it down in my address book. I just in--I just had a feeling I -ought to record this. - -Mr. JENNER. He lived on Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. GLOVER. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I -remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the -photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a -printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come -over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over -and pick him up. My wife remembers that I was down at the ice rink -skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald -or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an -automobile and operate an automobile? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not recall anything said about that. - -Mr. JENNER. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this -party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be -a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being -associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful -that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering -for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some -other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a -gathering. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event. -Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he -expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your -impression of the man. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said -specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did -not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is -partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the -impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type -of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope, -but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something -like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it -was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their -experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction -certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize -the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it. - -And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember -specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good -impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with -things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was -going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I -remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't -remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the--it might have -been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to -woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night -or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on -another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought -out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have -been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone. - -An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of -the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were--who -were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50 -years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was -the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the -treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there -were Cubans. - -Mr. JENNER. It seems what? - -Mr. GLOVER. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans -who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being -indoctrinated. - -Mr. JENNER. This is while they were in Russia? - -Mr. GLOVER. This is while they were in Russia, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of -some Cubans being in Russia? - -Mr. GLOVER. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume -this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them? - -Mr. GLOVER. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having -actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the -treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it -didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did -talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they -were really treated well. - -Mr. JENNER. The Cubans were? - -Mr. GLOVER. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything -they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the -Cubans, as it were, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the -Cubans? - -Mr. GLOVER. I could not remember any specific view about them, but -I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were -there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that -the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in -all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making -statements, but he would give the impression that these people must -have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians. -Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated -very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about -his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to -conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now -recall? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at -the moment. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife -very much. - -Mr. JENNER. When she talked to Marina, in what language did she speak? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't -believe Marina was able to converse in English. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she translate for Marina? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I believe she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald translate for her? - -Mr. GLOVER. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that -he did. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in a house or in an apartment? - -Mr. GLOVER. It was in a house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather -together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature, -were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general -vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and -interplay? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only -person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she -was the only woman. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and -leave right away? - -Mr. GLOVER. They stayed a very brief time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody -other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina, -is that a fair statement? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the -beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9 -o'clock and stayed a short while and left. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of -that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it -was about the system, he didn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a -corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in -communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site -anywhere? So far, that is a fairly general statement? - -Mr. GLOVER. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want -to elaborate on in that connection? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was -essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated, -what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the -answer. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to why, if you had an -impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English? -And if so, what was that impression? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting -to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual -situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of -the two is much, is very much the dominating person. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple? - -Mr. GLOVER. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I -heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could -get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I -assumed she was staying with him. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently, -as to whether he was a stable person? - -Mr. GLOVER. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly -well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was -very candid, but I felt---- - -Mr. JENNER. You did not think he was very candid? - -Mr. GLOVER. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that -whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had -the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would -go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I -did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the -impression of him being violent, which later came out, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who -was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of -life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that -point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly -of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had -another job--I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got -a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got -a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he -was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person -lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that -connection, or did you acquire? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he -discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He -apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in -spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in -this--in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I -am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of -hindsight. - -Mr. JENNER. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to -get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man. - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression -of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what -he wanted at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of -knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man -whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he -really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity -since, what his regions of reaching and desires were? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person -in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he -had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he -probably never would discover what he was going to live by--of course I -didn't keep contact with him after this meeting--and, consequently, had -no further chance to observe him. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to talk about that in a moment. - -Mr. GLOVER. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the -world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his -lot in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he -would rationalize to avoid self-analysis? - -Mr. GLOVER. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the -time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because -I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an -interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about -something by somebody who might have some status in society where he -didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly -bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and -unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment. - -Mr. JENNER. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you -recall, concerning the United States? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about -the system not being a satisfactory one. - -Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy mentioned? - -Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or -supporting any particular political causes? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not say anything about that at all. - -Mr. JENNER. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might -or could be or was--might be or could be or was a person given to -violence? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to -violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife, -apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think -that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say, -but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or -something like this. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds? - -Mr. GLOVER. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this -because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house -where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it -was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure. -It was nothing of significance that existed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time -subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence -of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in -early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess -it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a -record player which they had loaned me. - -Mr. JENNER. From the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. GLOVER. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and -Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts) -wanted to give the record player to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and -I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob -Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us -and left it off at Marina's place. - -Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up -before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up -by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was -wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was -going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but -apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a -house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door -in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat -of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the -name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was the first---- - -Mr. JENNER. Neely Street? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because -it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, this was an apartment building or home -different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. So I gave her the record player. - -Mr. JENNER. Gave it to her? - -Mr. GLOVER. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; he was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know he was not there? - -Mr. GLOVER. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure -about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there, -because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over -there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had -the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to -explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression -he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had -with Marina? - -Mr. GLOVER. That was the last time I saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time -thereafter? - -Mr. GLOVER. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after -that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not -sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record -player--I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her -that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and -that she--first of all, the events after that went like this. - -The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and -had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the -Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that -Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and -also left to go to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in the spring of 1963? - -Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at -this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in -New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to -New Orleans? - -Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I -do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think -I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having -heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house -until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and -had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over -and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought -the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but -I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you -from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his -remarks about what you have testified: - -"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child, -we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told -us he was completely harmless?" - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was -quoting what he said. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to -Marina? - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record -player, that she had gone to New Orleans. - -Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than -that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems -it must have been after I was married and I was still living on -Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had -records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for -Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and -what to do with them? - -And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember -talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me -and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time -Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me -that, I am not sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming -back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his -job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time I believe---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was coming back to live or was visiting? - -Mr. GLOVER. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was -coming back here. - -Mr. JENNER. Lost his job in New Orleans? - -Mr. GLOVER. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the -last I heard of them until the event of November 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Glover, that has -occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you -think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the -assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I -have questioned you, and--or anything else that you think might help -the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths -with respect to that tragic event? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value -to add. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may, -if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to -you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of -waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege -of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and -sign it. And you also have the privilege of waiving that right. Do you -have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment? - -Mr. GLOVER. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I -don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a -technicality. Maybe I should ask someone. - -Mr. JENNER. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you -wish to, if you prefer--that you read your deposition over it will be -available to you next week, should you so desire. - -Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I think I would like to read it. - -Mr. JENNER. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will -call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript -will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call -them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the -deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections -or additions. - -Mr. GLOVER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With this I have no further questions. I have only -this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and -inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your -personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing -personal on my part. - -Mr. GLOVER. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a -question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what -I know about such a situation. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, that is where we are at the moment. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CARLOS BRINGUIER - -The testimony of Carlos Bringuier was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Carlos Bringuier, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses, -including you, by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and -joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week, stating that I -would contact you in connection with the taking of your testimony. I -understand that he sent with his letter a copy of the Executive order -and resolution to which I have just referred as well as a copy of -the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of -testimony of witnesses. - -Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I received it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you received copies of the documents that I have -referred to? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. I received. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in learning from you, Mr. -Bringuier, about the contact that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald while -he was present in New Orleans in the summer and early fall of 1963. -Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, will you -state your full name for the record. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Carlos Bringuier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. Bringuier? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me one moment. May I explain to you? In Cuba -we use a long name with a lot of middle names. Do you want the whole -middle name too? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; I think that is enough. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. It is enough? O.K. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I live in 501 Adele Street, Apartment F. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Here in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I was born in Havana, June 22, 1934. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Havana? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was living in Havana until May 4, 1960. I left -Havana to Guatemala and Argentina, and I came to the States in February -8, 1961. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You came then to New Orleans, is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That day I arrived to Miami, Florida, and I was in Miami -for 10 days, and I came to New Orleans in February 18, 1961. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been here in New Orleans ever since? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Cuban national, is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I am a salesman, retail clothing store with the -name of Casa Roca, 107 Decatur Street. I am a salesman and manager of -the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been so employed? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I started to work in that store in October 1, 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you been employed here in New Orleans prior to that -time? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I was working for 1 year in Ward's Discount -House, 708 Canal Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You worked there as a salesman also? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. As a salesman also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your educational background? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was attorney in Cuba and assistant secretary for -the criminal court in Havana. I got my degree in 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your degree in what field? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Law. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In law? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you then were trained as a lawyer in Cuba---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Castro came to power? Is that -correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you actually practice law in Cuba? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Not actually, no. I didn't practice law, because I was -working, as I told you, in the criminal court, and in Havana, in Cuba, -when you was employee of the criminal court, you could not practice law. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become a member of the bar in Cuba or do some -act that is similar of becoming a member of the bar here in the United -States? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I didn't do any act to become here in United States -member of bar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in Cuba? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. In Cuba, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were a member of the bar in Cuba? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you have been active in the -Anti-Castro Movement here in New Orleans. Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you left Cuba because -of your feeling against the Castro regime and your opposition to that -regime? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. I did not believe in it, I did not -agree with the Communist regime in Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As a result, you left Cuba and came to the United States? -Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has your family joined you here in the United States? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, when I went to Argentina, I went with my wife and -the three kids at that moment, and after I came to the United States -alone, and 2 months later they met me here in the States. I want to -explain that I am not in the States as a Cuban refugee but as an -immigrant, as a resident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And as an immigrant from Cuba, or from some other---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. From Cuba [producing document]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have shown me an identification card from the -Department of Immigration and Naturalization, indicating that you were -admitted to the United States as an immigrant on February 8, 1961. Is -that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -(Document returned to witness.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct in understanding, am I not, that you have -been involved to one degree or another in Anti-Castro activities here -in New Orleans since your arrival? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; soon after I arrived here to New Orleans, -I founded a Newsletter for the Cubans with the name of Crusada. -That was my first work here in New Orleans. After that I joined, -at the beginning of 1962, the New Orleans Delegation of the Cuban -Revolutionary Council, and I was working as Secretary of Publicity and -Propaganda here in New Orleans for the Cuban Anti-Castro. That was, -I believe, June or July--June 1962. After that, I resigned, and in -July 1962 I was designated New Orleans delegate of the Cuban Student -Directorate, and I am in that position from that time to now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when that was and the circumstances of the event. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the first day that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald was on -August 5, 1963, but before we go deeper in this matter about Oswald, I -think that I would like to explain to you two things that I think will -facilitate the Commission to understand my feeling at that moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is perfectly all right. Go ahead. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. And you see, in August 24, 1962, my organization, -the Cuban Student Directorate, carry on a shelling of Havana, and -a few days later when person from the FBI contacted me here in New -Orleans--his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking -to me in the Thompson Cafeteria. At that moment I was the only one -from the Cuban Student Directorate here in the city, and he was asking -to me about my activities here in the city, and when I told him that -I was the only one, he didn't believe that, and he advised me--and I -quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are -doing here." My answer to him was, "Well, you will have to infiltrate -myself, because I am the only one." And I want to put this out, because -after the assassination of Mr. Kennedy, when I was interviewed, I told -something that some part of the press or some persons now are trying to -use to tell that maybe Oswald was a man from the FBI or the CIA. I will -go into that later on. - -After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting -that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the -FBI, because I already was told by one of the FBI agent that they will -try to infiltrate my organization. - -Next thing is this: On August 2, 1963, I receive in my store--I have -over there the office of the delegation too, the visit of two Cubans, -who told me that they had already desert from one Anti-Castro training -camp that was across Lake Pontchartrain here in New Orleans. Until that -moment I did not know nothing about that Anti-Castro training camp -here in the city, and they told me that that Anti-Castro training camp -was a branch of the Christian Democratic Movement--that is another -Anti-Castro organization--and they told me that they had the fear -inside the training camp that there was a Castro agent inside that -training camp. - -A few days before, too, the police found here in New Orleans about 1 -mile from that training camp a big lot of ammunition and weapons and -all those things, and when Oswald came to me on August 5 I had inside -myself the feeling, well, maybe this is from the FBI, or maybe this is -a Communist, because the FBI already had told me that maybe they will -infiltrate my organization, but that feeling--I only had that feeling -on August 5, because 4 days later I was convinced that Oswald was not -an FBI agent and that he was a Pro-Castro agent. - -When I told that to the press after the assassination, I saw in some -magazines that I was not sure if he was an FBI or not, and that is not -the truth, because on August 9, 3 months before the assassination, I -was sure that he was a Pro-Castro and not an FBI. I want to have that -clear. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you -on August 5---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were suspicious of him on two different counts? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator -working for the FBI? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de -Brueys had said to you---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. A year ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Almost a year prior to that time? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were also concerned about the possibility that Oswald -might have been a Communist or a Castro agent of some sort, who was -trying to infiltrate your organization on behalf of that group? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Now that day, on August 5, I was talking -in the store with one young American--the name of him is Philip -Geraci--and 5 minutes later Mr. Oswald came inside the store. He -start to look around, several articles, and he show interest in my -conversation with Geraci. I was explaining to Geraci that our fight -is a fight of Cubans and that he was too young, that if he want to -distribute literature against Castro, I would give him the literature -but not admit him to the fight. - -At that moment also he start to agree with I, Oswald start to agree -with my point of view and he show real interest in the fight against -Castro. He told me that he was against Castro and that he was against -communism. He told me--he asked me first for some English literature -against Castro, and I gave him some copies of the Cuban report printed -by the Cuban Student Directorate. - -After that, Oswald told me that he had been in the Marine Corps and -that he had training in guerrilla warfare and that he was willing to -train Cubans to fight against Castro. Even more, he told me that he was -willing to go himself to fight against Castro. That was on August 5. - -I turned down his offer. I told him that I don't have nothing to do -with military activities, that my only duties here in New Orleans are -propaganda and information and not military activities. That was my -answer to him. - -He insisted, and he told me that he will bring to me next day one book -as a present, as a gift to me, to train Cubans to fight against Castro. - -Before he left---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Geraci present throughout this entire conversation? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Geraci present throughout this entire -conversation that you had with Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so, yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Mr. Blalock there? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Who? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. Do you remember him? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there was another young boy. What was his name did -you say? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I could not tell you, because I don't remember the name -of the other boy who was there, but I think that I saw him just one -time in my life. Geraci was with another person over there, another -young boy, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention during this conversation that he could -easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain -around the railroad track? Do you remember him mentioning something -like that? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you see; I do not exactly remember all the -details, because we were talking for about--I believe about 1 hour, -something like that, and at that moment I didn't know what was going to -happen and I didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was -being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this -that I am telling to you. Maybe he mentioned that. I could not tell -to you that he mentioned that, because I am not--I don't remember. He -could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience -that he had in guerrilla warfare in the Marine Corps. - -Before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered -me money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he offer you? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I don't know. As soon as he put the hand in the -pocket and he told me, "Well, at least let me contribute to your group -with some money," at that moment I didn't have the permit from the -city hall here in New Orleans to collect money in the city, and I told -him that I could not accept his money, and I told him that if he want -to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the -headquarters in Miami, because they had the authorization over there -in Miami, and I gave him the number of the post office box of the -organization in Miami. - -And after that, I left the store, because I had to go to the bank -to make the deposit, and Oswald was in the store talking to my -brother-in-law--that is my partner in the store--Rolando Pelaez. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that P-e-l-a-e-z? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Oswald was talking to him for about half -an hour, and later on when I came back from the bank I asked to my -brother-in-law, "Well, what do you think about this guy who was here?" - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you his name was Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; he told me that his name was Lee Oswald, and he -told me one address in Magazine Street, but I didn't remember at -that moment the number, and when I asked to my brother-in-law that, -he told me that Oswald looked like really a smart person and really -interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother -a good impression, and I told my brother that I could not trust him, -because--I didn't know what was inside of me, but I had some feeling -that I could not trust him. I told that to my brother that day. Next -day, on August 6, Oswald came back to the store, but I was not in the -store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a Guidebook -for Marines for me with the name "L. H. Oswald" in the top of the first -page. When I came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the -Guidebook for Marines. I was looking in the Guidebook for Marines. I -found interest in it and I keep it, and later--I forgot about that -just for 3 days more--on August 9 I was coming back to the store at 2 -o'clock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of Celso -Hernandez came to me and told me that in Canal Street there was a young -man carrying a sign telling "Viva Fidel" in Spanish, and some other -thing about Cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in English, and the -only thing that he understood was the "Viva Fidel" in Spanish. He told -me that he was blaming the person in Spanish, but that the person maybe -didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let -me know what was going on over there. - -At that moment was in the store another Cuban with the name of Miguel -Cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that I have in the store -in color. The sign is the Statue of Liberty with a knife in the back, -and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the Soviet -Union, and it said, "Danger. Only 90 Miles from the United States Cuba -Lies in Chains." We pick up the sign and we went to Canal Street to -find the guy. - -We were walking all Canal Street to Rampart Street, but we could not -find him. We were asking to different people in the street, but nobody -saw him, nobody told us, Yes, I saw him, or, He went to this side. I -decided to get a Canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the -Canal streetcar until about the 2700 block of Canal Street, and we came -back in the Canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment. - -I went back to the store, but just 3 or 4 minutes later one of my two -friends, Miguel Cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was -another time in Canal Street and that Celso was watching him over there. - -I went over there with the sign another time, and I was surprised when -I recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said, -"Viva Fidel" and "Hands off Cuba," was Lee Harvey Oswald. Until that -moment I only knew Oswald as a guy who was offering his service to -train Cubans, and when I saw that he was with a sign defending Fidel -Castro and praising Fidel Castro, I became angry. That was in the 700 -block of Canal Street just in front of the store where I was working my -first year here in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the International Trade Mart? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; Ward Discount House. He make another appearance in -the International Trade Mart, later, and I will go into that, too. - -When I saw that was Oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised, -but just for a few seconds. Immediately he smiled to me and he offered -the hand to shake hands with me. I became more angry and I start to -tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was -doing that, because he had just came to me 4 days ago offering me his -service and that he was a Castro agent, and I start to blame him in the -street. - -That was a Friday around 3 o'clock at this moment, and many people -start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. I start -to explain to the people what Oswald did to me, because I wanted to -move the American people against him, not to take the fight for myself -as a Cuban but to move the American people to fight him, and I told -them that that was a Castro agent, that he was a pro-Communist, and -that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in Cuba, -kill them and send their children to the execution wall. Those were my -phrases at the moment. - -The people in the street became angry and they started to shout to him, -"Traitor! Communist! Go to Cuba! Kill him!" and some other phrases that -I do not know if I could tell in the record. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean they cursed at him, they swore at him? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, some bad phrases, bad words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. And at that moment, one of the Americans push him by one -arm. One policeman came. When policeman came to me and asked me to keep -walking and to let Oswald distribute his literature that he was handing -out--he was handing out yellow leaflets of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, New Orleans Chapter--and I told to the policeman that I was -Cuban, I explained to him what Oswald did to me, and I told him that I -don't know if was against the law, but that I will not leave that place -until Oswald left and that I will make some trouble. - -The policeman left, I believe going to some place to call the -headquarters, and at one moment my friend Celso took the literature -from Oswald, the yellow sheets, and broke it and threw it on the air. -There were a lot of yellow sheets flying. And I was more angry, and I -went near Oswald to hit him. I took my glasses off and I went near to -him to hit him, but when he sensed my intention, he put his arm down as -an X, like this here (demonstrating). - -Mr. LIEBELER. He crossed his arms in front of him? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, put his face and told me, "O.K. Carlos, -if you want to hit me, hit me." - -At that moment, that made me to reaction that he was trying to appear -as a martyr if I will hit him, and I decide not to hit him, and just a -few seconds later arrive two police cars, and one of the policeman over -there was Lieutenant Gaillot, G-a-i-l-l-o-t. They put Oswald and my two -friends in one of the police cars, and I went with Lieutenant Gaillot -in the other police car to the First District of Police here in New -Orleans. - -When we were in the First District of Police, we were in the same room, -one small room over there, and some of the policemen start to question -Oswald if he was a Communist, what he was doing that, and all those -things, and Oswald at that moment--that was in front of myself--was -really cold blood. He was answering the questions that he would like -to answer, and he was not nervous, he was not out of control, he was -confident in himself at that moment over there. - -One of the questions that they asked to him was about his organization, -the Fair Play for Cuba, and I saw him showing some papers that--I -believe they were the credentials of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, -that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is a national organization, and -when he told that, he was so kind of proud that it was not a small -group but a national group all over the United States, and they asked -of him the name of the members. No. Excuse me. Before they asked him if -he has any office. He told them no, that there were--they were holding -the meetings in different house, different homes, different members -of the organization one night in one house, another night in another -house, but in front of me he didn't told nothing about any office. When -they asked him about the name of the members, he answered that he could -not tell the name of the members in front of myself, because he will -not like to let me know who were the ones who were helping him here in -the city, and at that moment the police came out of the room and that -was the last time that I saw him that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police keep you in jail too? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, yes. I had to put--they took my fingerprints and -my picture, and I have to put $25 bond that night with my two friends -too, and I don't know, but after the assassination I heard that Oswald -didn't put the $25 bond, that somebody went to the First District and -make--I believe you call that an affidavit or something like that, and -he will appear in court and he will not have to put the $25. He didn't -put the $25 bond. That is what I heard. I didn't saw that. I am not -sure of that. Next time that I saw him---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in court later? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; later. That was August 12. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on Monday. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you pleaded not guilty to the offense that you were -charged with? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right; that is right. And he plead guilty. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there in court? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him in court? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is what you were just about to tell me? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. In August 12, we appear in the second municipal court in -New Orleans. I came first with my friends, and there were some other -Cubans over there, and I saw when Oswald came inside the court. I saw -him. He went directly to sit down in the middle of the seat of the -colored people. See, here in the court you have two sides, one for the -white people and one for the colored people, and he walked directly -inside of the colored people and he sat directly among them in the -middle, and that made me to be angry too, because I saw that he was -trying to win the colored people for his side. When he will appear in -the court, he will defend Fidel Castro, he will defend the Fair Play -for Cuba, and the colored people will feel good for him, and that is a -tremendous work of propaganda for his cause. That is one of the things -that made me to think that he was a really smart guy and not a nut. - -When the judge call us, he plead guilty, I plead not guilty, and -my friends plead not guilty. I brought the Marines guidebook, the -guidebook for Marines, and I explain to the judge that the incident was -originated when Oswald tried to infiltrate the organization and that if -he will not do that, I will not have any fight with him in the street, -and I showed to him the guidebook for Marines with the name of Oswald -on the top of the first page, and the judge dismisses the charges -against us and fined him $10. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fined Oswald $10? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Ten dollars, that is right. In the court was at that -moment one cameraman from WDSU, and he make--he did an interview to -Oswald after the trial and he took some movies of ourselves, and later -I receive one phone call from Bill Stuckey. I had talk to Stuckey the -day of the trial in the morning. I met him in the bank and I explained -to him what was going on in the second municipal court, and he was the -one who send the reporter over there to the trial. I am not sure if -was the same day or next day of the trial Stuckey called me asking for -Oswald's address. I get the affidavit from the court dissertation, and -I give to him the address in dissertation, and I asked him why he was -looking for that. He told me that he was going to make an interview -to Oswald. I disagreed with him at that moment, I told him that I was -thinking that it was not good to let a Communist go to radio station -and tell all his lies, because there are many people who understand -what was happening in Cuba, but there are many people who do not know -exactly what is happening in Cuba. Stuckey offered me to make another -interview to me next Saturday in his program, but I didn't agree with -that neither, and I asked him to arrange a radio debate, because in -that way we could tell our point of view at the same moment in the same -place. - -On August 16 another friend of mine left to me a message in the store -that Oswald was another time handing out pro-Castro propaganda for the -Fair Play for Cuba Committee, this time in front of the International -Trade Mart here in New Orleans. - -I wasn't in the store at that moment, and when I came back and I -received the message, I went to the International Trade Mart, but I -could not find Oswald, he had already left, and I was talking later on -with my friend, and the information that I received was that he was -over there with two other persons. Later I saw the picture of those two -persons, and they have a Latin aspect. I do not know if they are Latin -Americans or not, but at least there is one who is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did somebody show you pictures of these individuals? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who did? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The Secret Service tried to see if I know them, if I -could identify them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you a picture, -which has previously been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit 453-A," and I ask -you if that is one of the pictures or a picture like the one the -Secret Service showed to you. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you another -picture, which has previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-B." - -Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] See this guy, see this Japanese? He -is from the Kasuga Co. here in New Orleans. He had the office in -International Trade Mart. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you pointed to the person standing immediately behind -and to Oswald's right with his hands up behind his head? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. [Demonstrating.] That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is on Exhibit 453-A. Now do you recognize the -person with the "X" over his head? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; that was Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now there is a person standing to Oswald's left wearing a -white shirt and facing the same direction that Oswald was facing, and -I will indicate that person with a pen mark on the picture. [Marking -photograph.] I have drawn an arrow pointing to the person to which I -refer, and I ask you if you recognize that person. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't recognize him. I believe that this is one of -the pictures that I saw before, but I don't recognize him. For me, he -looked like as a Latin American. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now in the far foreground of this picture, there is a -man who has been marked with a green mark, just one mark, and we are -referring at this point to Exhibit 453-A. Do you recognize that person? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that another one of the individuals to which you -referred as having a Latin-type complexion, or is it not? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir. I believe--no; this is not the one that I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have one other picture here of this scene which has not -previously been marked, and I will show that picture to you and ask -you if you can identify anybody in that picture with the exception of -Oswald, of course. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The only one that I could recognize here is Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he is the person with the "Hands Off Cuba"? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba" leaflets in his hand, the first one in -front, just in the middle of the picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking photograph.] I have marked the picture I just -referred to as "Exhibit No. 1" to your deposition. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Do you want that I sign the picture? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Would you initial the picture for identification -purposes? - -(The witness complied.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. You want that I sign these too? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No. We have identified those as Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and -453-B, and you have noted that they are---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that there were two different -people that appeared to you to be Latin people. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Sure. This one that I see here [indicating], this is the -one looked like to me a Latin, but, if I am not wrong, somebody showed -me another picture where is another guy distributing the leaflets. I -believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a Secret Service man or an FBI -agent? Do you know? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I think that was a Secret Service man. Maybe I am wrong. -I saw those days a lot of pictures; but--let me tell you something -else: If my opinion is not wrong, if I am not mistaken this moment, I -think that the other man was maybe in some kind of Bermuda shorts or -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any pictures in my possession showing that. -The Commission has requested the actual film, the TV film itself, to be -delivered to it, and they will examine it, and if such a person does -appear in the films, I will send you a picture of it. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And I will also speak to the Secret Service about it and -see if we can find such a picture. According to the Secret Service, one -of these gentlemen has been identified as Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Jr. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. He was working in the Pap's Super Market here in New -Orleans. I believe so, that he was working over there. There was one -Cuban who, when saw his face in the television, called me to tell me -that, and I called the Secret Service and let them know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Steele will be in the office here this afternoon, so -we will have an opportunity to determine if it is the same man that was -marked with the arrow in Pizzo Exhibit 453-A or not. - -So you went over to the International Trade Mart on this day in an -attempt to find Oswald, but you were not successful? Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. After that my friend showed to me -one of the leaflets that Oswald was handing out in front of the -International Trade Mart, the yellow leaflets, and I found something -interesting at this point. There was a difference among the leaflets -that he was handing out on August 16 in the International Trade Mart -and the leaflets that he was handing out on Canal Street on August 9. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The leaflet he was handing out on Canal Street August 9 -didn't have his name of Oswald, at least the ones that I saw. They have -the name A. J. Hidell, and one post office box here in New Orleans and -the address, and the leaflets that he was handing out on August 16 have -the name L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Street. In the yellow leaflets -he was offering free literature and lectures, and he was asking to -the people to join the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, and at the end he said, "Everyone welcome." My friend asked -to me if I think that it would be good that he will go to Oswald's -house posing as a pro-Castro and try to get as much information as -possible from Oswald. I told him yes; and that night he went to -Oswald's house with the leaflets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What day was this now? Do you remember? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. August 16. I believe so. I think that. I am sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the same day that---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That he was distributing the leaflets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The second time? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The second time. The first time was a Friday, August 9, -and the second time--I think that was another Friday, August 16. - -My friend went to Oswald's house and he was talking to Oswald for about -1 hour inside his house, in the porch of the house, and there was when -we found that Oswald had some connection with Russia, or something like -that, because the daughter came to the porch and Oswald spoke to her -in Russian, and my friend heard that language and he asked Oswald if -that was Russian, and Oswald told him yes, that he was attending Tulane -University and that he was studying language, that that was the reason -why he speak Russian. He give to my friend an application to become a -member of the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. - -After the assassination my friend turned [over] to the Secret Service -one copy of the application. I have here one, one copy [producing -document]. This is a photocopy. My friend keep the original. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; that is the only one that I have. He has the -original. If you want to keep that, for me it is no trouble, because -always I could take more copies. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Your friend still has the original? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The original; that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's mark this one as "Exhibit 2" to your -deposition. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we asked Mr. Bringuier to -initial a picture which we discussed before on the record, and -that picture, which is a picture of a street scene in front of -the International Trade Mart has been marked "Exhibit 1" to Mr. -Bringuier's deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964. We -shall now mark as "Exhibit 2" to that deposition a photocopy of an -application to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans, La., -which Mr. Bringuier says is a copy of an application which was given -to a friend of his whose name we have agreed not to indicate on the -record, given by Lee Oswald on or about August 16, 1963. Is that -correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 2 and I ask you to do the -same, if you would. - -[The witness complied.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please go ahead. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. At that conversation Oswald was defending Fidel Castro, -and he advised to my friend that the United States don't have the right -to invade or to overthrow any other government, and that if the United -States will do that to Cuba, he will fight defending Castro, because -Castro was right. - -I gave the copy of the transcription of the conversation with my friend -to the Secret Service the days after the Kennedy assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the day that you and your friend discussed this -after your friend returned from Oswald's and you made a recording of -that conversation? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Not a recording, not a recording exactly; but when my -friend came back from Oswald's house, he told me what happened over -there and he was trying to contact some authority to let him go deeper -inside the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; my friend was trying to contact some authorities, -because he didn't want to be involved in that matter without the -knowledge of the U.S. Government. We also discussed this conversation -in front of Ed Butler. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Ed Butler, Edward Butler, for the Information Council of -the Americas, the day or 2 days previous to the debate when my friend -and myself went to Butler's office, and my friend was explaining to -Butler all the conversation and the point of view of Oswald, and the -matter that Oswald spoke in Russian, and at that moment my friend -had found that Oswald had been in Russia and that he was married to -one Russian girl. We gave all that information to Butler and he was -trying to contact some person, somebody in Washington, to get more the -background of Oswald before the debate. - -After that, the last day that I saw Oswald was August 21, the day of -the debate. I went to WDSU radio about 5:30, 30 minutes before the time -of the debate. When I went to the lobby, there were already there--Bill -Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald. I shake hands with Stuckey. Stuckey -indicate to me that Oswald was there. Oswald stand up and came to me -and shake hands with me. I was talking to Stuckey for a few minutes, -and after that Stuckey left the lobby and went inside the WDSU radio -station to check--I believe that was to check in what room we will have -the debate. I was talking to Oswald that day before the debate started. -I was trying to be as friendly to him as I could. I really believe -that the best thing that I could do is to get one Communist out of the -Communist Party and put him to work against communism, because he know -what communism mean, and I told to Oswald that I don't have nothing -against him in the personal way, just in the ideologic way. I told him -that for me it was impossible to see one American being a Communist, -because communism is trying to destroy the United States, and that if -any moment when he will be at bed he will start to think that he can -do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself, he -could come to me, because I would receive him, because I repeat to him -I didn't have nothing against him in the personal way. He smiled to me. -He told me--he answered me that he was in the right side, the correct -side, and that I was in the wrong side, and that he was doing his best. -That were his words at that moment. - -Before we went inside the room of the debate, he saw my guidebook for -Marines that I was carrying with me, because I did not know what will -happen in the debate and I will have to have that weapon with me to -destroy him personally as a traitor if he doing something wrong in the -debate. When he saw the guidebook for Marines, he smiled to me, and he -told me, "Well, listen, Carlos, don't try to do an invasion with that -guidebook for Marines, because that is an old one and that will be a -failure." That was his joke in that moment. - -After that we went to the debate, and I think that you have the whole -history of the debate, you have the transcription and everything, [so] -that I don't have to go inside that, because that is subjective, not -objective. You have the objective, and that is the debate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. We do have a transcript and we listened to -it on the tape last night over at the television station too. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. And there is something that I want to show you too. -I told to you about the training camp that were across the Lake -Pontchartrain. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. [Producing newspaper.] At the beginning of August in the -Diario Las Americas from Miami for September 4---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. For September 4, 1963? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. [Indicating photograph.] This is the spy -who was inside the training camp. The Christian Democratic Movement -turned him over to the FBI, and the FBI was questioning him in Miami. -The Christian Democratic Movement found a letter, according to this -information, from this guy directed to Carlos Lechuga, former Cuban -Ambassador to Mexico and now Cuban Ambassador to the United Nations -in New York. In that letter the spy, Fernando Fernandez, was warning -Lechuga that they have to be alert from that date to August 8, and the -day that Oswald came trying to infiltrate my organization was on August -5. This sounds for me strange in all this matter. - -[Indicating.] Here is another interview from Fernandez here 3 days -later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a copy of the same newspaper but for -the date of September 6, 1963, on the front page of which---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] Here. "Fernando Fernandez is in favor of -coexistence with the Communist regime of Castro." That is the title in -Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. You -say that Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga in Mexico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lechuga is a member of the Castro government? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is now Ambassador to the United Nations? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. In New York; right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fernandez is the person who was the Castro spy who had -infiltrated the training camp in Louisiana? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. For the Christian Democratic Movement here in Louisiana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the Christian Democratic Movement is--what? -Pro-Castro? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Anti-Castro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is an anti-Castro organization? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; they were training Cubans over here to make a -commando action against Castro, but they find out that there was a -Castro spy inside the training camp, and they went back to Miami with -the people and with him, and they turn him over to the FBI. I think -that after that the leader for the Christian Democratic Movement--or -that the FBI didn't found nothing, because was not against the law -to spy inside an anti-Castro organization. It was against the law -to spy inside the U.S. Government but not inside the anti-Castro -organization. And my feeling--and this is the question that I am asking -myself--in New Orleans we are about 900 miles from Miami. In Miami -is where the headquarters of all the anti-Castro groups. I could not -find any reason for Oswald to come to me and offer me his service to -train Cubans in guerrilla warfare at the same moment when there was a -secret anti-Castro training camp in New Orleans and a Castro spy was -inside that training camp. That for me is--because, if he was willing -to infiltrate one active organization, he will go directly to Miami -and he will offer his service over there in Miami, but not in New -Orleans where it is not publicly known that there was something going -on at that moment. I believe that that was the only time here in New -Orleans that there was something like that, and it was a coincidence. -And there is another coincidence too for me, and that is that when -Oswald left the city he went to Mexico, and the letter from Fernandez -that was intercepted here was to Mexico too, and Oswald visit the -Cuban consulate in Mexico, and the Fernandez letter was to the Cuban -Ambassador to Mexico. For me, that is a big doubt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, after the debate, the same night of the debate, -I went to the radio station here in New Orleans and the local papers -and the United Press International office, and I gave a press release. -If you want a copy, I could give you a copy. I gave a copy to the -Secret Service. - -The most interesting thing is the four things that I asked to the -Secret Service of New Orleans. I think that this is the second -one where I said, "Write to your Congressman asking for a full -investigation of Mr. Lee H. Oswald, a confessed Marxist" [producing -document]. And that was 3 months before the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I have the original of that. You can have that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked a copy of the press release distributed to -the various communications media here in New Orleans, on August 16, -1963---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No, August 21. - -Mr. LIEBELER. August 21, 1963? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. August 21, the night of the debate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I mark it as "Exhibit No. 3" to your deposition, and I -have initialed it. Would you initial it? - -[The witness complied.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go over some of this testimony that you have just -given to see if I understand. Mr. Fernandez wrote to Mr. Lechuga a -letter in which Fernandez said that we--meaning the Castro people? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Must be on guard up until August 8? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. August 8, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that Oswald had come to your store or -offices on August 5, 1963? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald came to you offering to assist in the military -training of Cubans? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, there was, in fact, a training camp near -New Orleans---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For the training of people for military action against -Castro? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was not public knowledge at that time? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are tying this up in your mind by considering the -possibility that Oswald was, in fact, a Castro agent? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did know about the existence of this training camp, -because Mr. Fernandez had already himself infiltrated that training -camp? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that Fernandez had told Oswald about the existence of -this camp and had asked Oswald himself to try to infiltrate that camp -for your organization? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the only thing that I don't believe is that -Fernandez had told directly to Oswald. What I believe is that Fernandez -had informed some people outside the United States, and these people -had informed Oswald and had gave to Oswald the order to try to -infiltrate the Cuban group here in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Fernandez was, on this theory, aware of that and -was aware of approximately the time Oswald would make this attempt, -and, therefore, indicated to Lechuga that there would be some danger of -Oswald being discovered as an attempted infiltrator? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg pardon? I don't understand the words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand, part of the hypothesis here, the theory, -relates to the fact that Fernandez said to Lechuga, "We must be -careful, or we will be in danger,"--up until about August 8. Now does -that statement have anything to do with Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, what I think is this: He send that letter to -Lechuga, and on August 5 Oswald came to me offering his service to -train Cubans, all in the same period of time. Something that never was -happening here in New Orleans, that there was a secret anti-Castro -training camp, and the chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -trying to join the Cuban group here in New Orleans. Those are the -facts. I don't want to tell something that I am not sure about. I just -want to show you that tremendous coincidence or that connection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now it doesn't seem likely, does it, that Oswald would -go around handing out literature in the streets like he did if he was -actually attempting to infiltrate the anti-Castro movement? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Remember that that was after I turned down his offer -and after I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military -activities and that here there is nothing, and that I turned down -completely him. He didn't went openly to do that before the attempt to -infiltrate the training camp; he went openly to do that after he was -turned down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conceivable association between -anybody in the pro-Castro movement and Oswald that could have acted as -a source of information to Oswald--conducted the orders to him? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have any way of obtaining information of that -sort as a result of your anti-Castro activities and contacts? If there -were such a person as this, do you think you would be likely to know -about it? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Beg your pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. If there were such a person, that is to say, some agent -of the Castro movement who had been working with Oswald, do you think -that you would have had access to that information or you would have -been likely to find out about it? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, that is a hard question, because here in the -city you have a lot of persons. There are some who are pro-Castro, -there are many who are anti-Castro. Even among the Cubans you could -have some Castro agents here in the city and you could not have control -of everybody. - -But there is something else: The owner of the Havana Bar--the Havana -Bar is located in 117 Decatur Street, just two door or three door from -my store--the owner of the Havana Bar is a Cuban, and he and one of -the employees over there, gave the information to me after Kennedy's -assassination--not before--that Oswald went to the Havana Bar one time. -He asked for some lemonade. He was with one Mexican at that moment, -and when Oswald was drinking the lemonade, he start to say that, sure, -the owner of that place had to be a Cuban capitalistic, and that he -argue about the price of the lemonade. He was telling that that was -too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, Oswald feel -bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk -to vomit outside on the sidewalk. These persons here from the Havana -Bar told me that the guy, the Mexican, who was with Oswald, was the -same one that one time the FBI told them that if they will see him, -call them immediately because that was a pro-Communist. I remember -that was between August 15 and August 30 was that period of time. I -could not locate that because I start to find out all these things -after the Kennedy assassination, not before, because before I did not -found any connection. They did not told nothing of this before to me. -Between the 15th and the 30th the brother of the owner of the Havana -Bar came to my store asking me to call the FBI, because he already saw -one automobile passing by the street with two Mexicans, one of them the -one who had been with Oswald in the bar, and he told me that the FBI, -one agent from the FBI, had been in the bar and told them that if they -will see those two guy to call them. This person, the brother of the -owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate -of the automobile, but he didn't get from what State. I called the FBI, -because this person don't know to speak English. That was the reason -why he came to me. I talked to the person in the FBI. I explained what -was going on, but looked like this person on the telephone didn't know -nothing about that matter and he took the--I believe that he took the -notes of what I was telling to him, and that was all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen, before the assassination or after? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I called before the assassination, but I didn't know -that that was any connection with Oswald, because they didn't told me -at the Havana Bar that one of them was the one that was with Oswald in -the Havana Bar, and even more they didn't told me Oswald had been in -the Havana Bar. After I learn that Oswald was one day over there with -one Mexican, the brother of the owner told me, "Yes. You remember those -two Mexicans? One of them was the one who was with Oswald in the bar." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell me approximately when you called the FBI about -this. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, that was between the 15th of August and the 30th -of August, because that was when the owner of the Havana Bar was on -vacation. The brother was the one who was at the front of the business -at that moment, and we figure that the owner of the Havana Bar went on -vacation from August 15 to August 30 and that had to happen in that -period of time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, some time between August 15 and -August 30 the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told you that he -had seen a man that had been formerly identified to him by the FBI, and -the FBI had asked this man, the brother of the owner of the bar, to -notify them if he saw this man? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he had seen this man together with another man -driving in an automobile somewhere here in New Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. But the question is this: The FBI was according to the -information that the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told me, -the FBI was looking for both men, not for one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For both of them? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. For both of them, but just one of them was in the Havana -Bar with Oswald, not both. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the brother of the owner of the -Havana Bar? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Ruperto Pena, and the one who saw Oswald in the -bar--that was the one who served the lemonade to him--Evaristo -Rodriguez. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you report this to the FBI when you talked to them -after the assassination? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. After the assassination? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I report this to the Secret Service. I believe so. -[Producing document.] I have here a copy of the letter that I send -to the headquarters on November 27, 1963, informing here to the -headquarters the information that I gave to the Secret Service about -the man who was working in the Pap's Supermarket, that he was going to -Delgado Trades School, I believe with the name of Charles, and I have -here that I gave to the Secret Service this information during that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. May I see that? - -[Document exhibited to counsel.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Spanish? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have given me a draft of a document entitled "Open -Letter to People of New Orleans," which I have marked "Exhibit No. 4" -to your deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964, and I -have initialed it in the lower right hand corner. Would you initial it, -please? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. [Complying.] And you agree to send me back the original? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I will take this and have a copy made, and I will -send the original back to you. I have your address on my copy here of -Mr. Rankin's letter, which is 107 Decatur Street, New Orleans, La. Is -that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. That is my store. You can send the mail -to there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Correct. Now "Exhibit No. 4," as I understand it, is a -draft of a letter that you proposed to distribute here in New Orleans -some time after the debate that you had with Oswald on August 21, 1963. -Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It, in fact, was never distributed because you---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I went to the city hall, and they informed me--I think -the person that informed me--maybe I am wrong--is Mr. Diboll--I had -that name here wrote on the back--and he gave to me the information -that it had to be 3-1/2 by 5-1/2 and this was not possible to -distribute in that size, and I decided not to distribute. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you prepared this some time during August in 1963? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was done prior to the assassination? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Do you have any information from Oswald -going to Cuba? - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean--has it ever appeared that Oswald actually went -to Cuba? Not as far as I know. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well [producing magazine], there is here in this -magazine--this is Bohemia International--this is printed in -Venezuela--February 2, 1964--there is an article by Dr. Herminio -Portell-Vila. He is a professor of history of Cuba, Dr. Herminio -Portell-Vila, and an old diplomat from Cuba. I think he is living in -Washington, D.C. And he said here [exhibiting page] that in one speech -from Castro on November 27, 1963, in the University of Havana, Castro -said--and I quote: "The first time that Oswald was in Cuba"--and that -immediately he cut the speech, he changed and he talked of something -else. Maybe you have a record of that speech delivered from Castro in -the University of Havana and you could check if Castro said that 5 days -after the assassination or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what kind of magazine is this Bohemia International? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Bohemia was the biggest weekly magazine in Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the Castro regime? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. And during the Castro regime they were -defending Castro a lot of time, but in 1960 the director, the editor, -went into exile, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he now publishes this magazine from Venezuela? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. He was publishing that from New York -about one year, I believe, sir, and then at a later date moved to -Venezuela, but that is circulating here inside the United States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to an issue of that magazine of -February 2, 1964, and to an article that begins on page 16. What is the -title of the article? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Disfraz. That is mask, costume. That says "change of---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Change of costume? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this is an article about Lee Oswald and the Fair Play -for Cuba Committee. Is that correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the caption under the picture of Lee Oswald, as it -appears on page 17, reads what in English? Would you translate that for -us? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. "When Castro in his speech of November 27, 1963, at the -University of Havana said literally that 'the first time that Oswald -was in Cuba,' he went out of his tongue, that is literally, under the -influence of cognac--Peralta, that is a brand of cognac--'he told -something that is really important.'" - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what it says? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is what it says here, and if you want to take the -name of the person who wrote it---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The article was written by---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know if you have a copy of---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to put that on the record, that story you -told me just a minute ago? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Last January I went to Miami, Fla., where I was -talking to Dr. Emilio Nunez-Portuondo, former Cuban Ambassador to the -United Nations, and he told me that just after the assassination of -President Kennedy he received a request from one of the biggest Mexican -newspapers asking him for some public declarations of opinion about -the assassination. He sent that day a letter with his press release -inside, addressed to one friend of him who is living in Mexico City and -his friend deliver that press release to the Mexico City newspaper in -Mexico. In that release, Mr. Nunez-Portuondo blamed Fidel Castro as the -"intellectual murderer of President Kennedy." - -Dr. Portuondo told me that the same day that that information appear -in the paper, his friend suffer an attempt to be kidnaped. There went -about eight men to this man house, and when they were trying to put him -inside one automobile, at the same moment pass a reporter--I believe -that was from the AP--and when the reporter saw what was going on, -he start to ask for help. At that moment the police came and started -to question the eight men, and, according to Nunez-Portuondo, they -identified themselves as members of the Secret Service of the Mexican -Government, and Mr. Portuondo's friend was beaten so hard that he had -to go to a hospital for 4 days with a broken leg, just because he -was the one who deliver Nunez-Portuondo's statement to the Mexican -newspaper blaming Fidel Castro for the murder of President Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go back briefly to the letter from Fernandez to -Lechuga which you indicated had been intercepted. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What letter is this and who intercepted it? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I believe that that letter was intercepted here in -New Orleans when Fernandez was sending the letter to Mexico. I didn't -have too much contact with that deal, because that was for another -organization, not my organization, and I didn't want to be involved, in -that that maybe was against the law. I always try to be out of---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean this letter was intercepted by some other Cuban -organization? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; for the same organization who had the training camp. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was intercepted while it was in the U.S. mails? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so. I think that he gave that letter to somebody -to drop in the mail, and that somebody that was suspicious about him, -they opened the letter and they found what the letter was telling. I -don't know what they do with the letter. I don't know nothing else. I -know about what is said in the paper. I know that they dismantle all -the training camp here in New Orleans. They went back to Miami. I paid -the trip for two of them to go back to Miami. Excuse me. I did not pay -the trip, I collect some monies among some Cubans, and we paid the -trip. I don't want to set something on the record that is not---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does it say something about the letter in these newspaper -stories that you have referred me to? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does it refer to the letter in these newspaper stories? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, is covering the whole history about it -[producing newspaper]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These newspaper stories are, as we have indicated, in -the Diario Las Americas, issues of September 4, 1963, and September 6, -1963. Do you have copies of these or do you want to keep these? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I think they are the only ones we have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I will tell something else to you: This -information--they are taking this information from the Miami Herald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring now---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That was the one who interview Fernando Fernandez, the -Miami Herald made an interview to Fernando Fernandez. I already asked -to some person in Miami to send me the Miami Herald, from September 3 -to September 10 to try to get all the information directly from the -Miami Herald but at this moment I only have the Spanish publication -over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Fernandez is now? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't know where he is. He was telling in that -interview that he was willing to go to Cuba, to go back to Cuba. I -don't know whether he is in Cuba now or not. Excuse me. Did you check -any other trip from Oswald to Mexico previously to the trip 3 weeks -before the assassination? Because I think that you have to know sure -that Mr. Stuckey, Bill Stuckey, made another interview to Oswald, and -he had the tape of that interview. I have one tape of that interview. -I think that that interview was made on August 17, 1963, and at that -interview Oswald said, answering to one question, that he had been in -Mexico, and in all the magazines that I am reading they are talking -about Oswald was born in New Orleans, he went to New York, he came -back to New Orleans, he went to the Marines, he went to Russia, he -came back, he he went to Dallas, he came to New Orleans back, he went -to Mexico 3 weeks before the assassination, but I don't read in any -newspaper or any magazine talking about some other trip from Oswald to -Mexico, and if you have that tape, in Oswald's own voice, he admitted -that he had been to Mexico before August 17. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, Mr. Stuckey will be here this afternoon. We will -ask him about that. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back briefly to this story of Mr. Pena telling you -that he had seen Oswald in the Havana Bar with this other Mexican, did -the FBI ever talk to Mr. Pena about this? Do you know? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know. I know that the owner of the Havana Bar, -in my opinion, is a good person, but he says that always when he talk -to the FBI in the bar or something like that, that he lose customers, -because, you see, to those bars sometime there are people, customers, -who don't like to see FBI around there, and he says that always he lose -customers when the FBI start to go over there, and sometime he become -angry and sometime he don't want to talk about. I am sure that the -brother, Ruperto--I am sure that he will tell everything that he knows. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to whether the report that -Ruperto made about Oswald being in the bar was an accurate report? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the question is this: Was not only Ruperto told -me that Oswald went to Havana Bar. The one who told me that was -Evaristo Rodriguez, and I never saw Evaristo Rodriguez telling lies or -never--Evaristo is quiet person, he is young, married, but he is quiet. -He is not an extrovert, that is, not a---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wouldn't be likely to make this story up? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't believe so. - -(At this point, Mr. Jenner entered the room to obtain photographs, and -there ensued an off the record discussion about the photographs.) - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I remember that when somebody--I believe that was the -Secret Service--showed to me the other picture that I tell you, that -they were--they had already identified one and they were trying to -identify the other one. I am sure that there were two, and no doubt -about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't recognize any of the---- - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Individuals in the pictures that we showed you -previously, Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B, and Exhibit No. 1 to your -own deposition? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only person you recognized in those pictures was Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right, and the guy I showed you, -the one from Kasuga, the Japanese. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] Now I show you -Exhibit No. 1 to the affidavit of Jesse Garner, and I ask you if you -recognize the individual in that picture. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And who is that? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the picture look like that is Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it shows him handing out a leaflet? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Reading off "Hands Off Cuba," does it not? Does that -leaflet look similar to the leaflet you saw Oswald handing out? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognize that man obviously as Oswald, don't you? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point, -but if you have anything else that you want to add, why, you can go -right ahead and do it. You have done most of the testifying without my -help and you have done very well. - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you. I don't know if you had already the -information that the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in Miami -gave to the press on January 31 about Jack Ruby's second trip to Cuba -in 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with it offhand. What is it? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you could check the name and the date of the -newspaper. It is the same "Diario Las Americas" from Miami, February 1, -1964, information from the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in -Miami telling that Jack Ruby went to Cuba at the end of 1962 through -Mexico, and he was in Cuba until the beginning of 1963. After that I -talked to them by long-distance telephone, long-distance call, and they -informed me that they already have turned over to the FBI all the proof -about this trip from Ruby going to Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the person that you spoke to in Miami? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. The person to whom I spoke in Miami, his name is Joaquin -Martinez de Pinillos. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he indicated that the information concerning Ruby's -trip had already been given to the FBI? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. To the FBI. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think we should -know about at this moment? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Back on the record. Going back briefly to the time at -which you and Oswald and your other friends were arrested and taken -to the police station here in New Orleans on August 9, 1963, were you -interviewed at the police station by any agent of the FBI? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there were two plain-clothing agents that -identified (themselves) as a member of the FBI, I believe, and they -were questioning us on the generalities of Oswald and all, and when -I was explaining to them and all, they had some kind of confusion -sometime because they didn't know if we were Communists, and I had to -explain to them three or four times that we were not the Communists and -that Oswald was the one that was doing that in favor of Castro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they interviewed Oswald? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. I think. I thought that they interviewed Oswald, but not -in front of me. They were talking to him in front of me, but when they -were ready to interview Oswald, they moved to other place to interview -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had to point out to them several times that it was -Oswald who was the Castro provocateur, so to say, and not you? Is that -correct? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; because they were asking to us in one way -as if we were Communists or pro-Castro, and I had to explain to them -in three or four different times that we were Cubans but we were not -pro-Castro and that we were the ones in the fight against Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this time, Mr. Bringuier. -If you can't think of anything else that you want to add now--can you -think of anything else? - -Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for spending the time that -you have with us and for cooperating with us the way you have. You have -been very helpful. On behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you -very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS L. MARTELLO - -The testimony of Francis L. Martello was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Francis L. Martello, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963 -and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week advising you that -we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, -and that enclosed with the letter were copies of Executive Order No. -11130, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, as well as a copy of -the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking -of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The general area of our inquiry of you, Lieutenant -Martello, relates to the information received by the Commission that -you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald some time in August of 1963 after he -had been arrested by the New Orleans Police Department as a result of -his activities in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. -Before I get into the details of that testimony, however, would you -please state your full name for the record? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Francis L. Martello, lieutenant, New Orleans Police -Department. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence, sir? - -Mr. MARTELLO. 7921 Maple Street, New Orleans, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police -Department? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Fifteen years and nine months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. MARTELLO. In New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have resided in New Orleans basically all of your -life? Is that right? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What assignments have you had with the New Orleans Police -Department generally over the period that you have been---- - -Mr. MARTELLO. For 6 years I was assigned to patrol, precincts, and -districts. For the next 6 years I was assigned as an instructor at -the New Orleans Police Academy. For the following 2 years I was the -deputy commander of the Intelligence Division of the New Orleans Police -Department, and since that time I have been a platoon commander in the -First District Police Station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in August of 1963 when you heard or -heard of or became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. He was arrested on Canal Street on -a Friday, the Friday prior to my interview, and upon coming to work on -Saturday morning, as a routine matter I checked the arrest records, -noted the charge, observed some placards marked as evidence, saw that -they were signed by the Fair Play for Cuba [Committee], and decided to -interview the person who I later found out was Lee Harvey Oswald, the -subject who was arrested. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently interview Oswald? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this a part of an official investigation conducted by -the New Orleans Police Department? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; it was. It was to ascertain primarily that all -parties, all of us law enforcement agencies, that would be interested -would be notified; also to ascertain if the various agencies within our -department were notified, and also to obtain any information that would -be of value to the Department concerning any future demonstrations that -this person or persons affiliated with him may perform in the city, so -that we would be prepared for such eventualities. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you interviewed Oswald, were you acting as -platoon commander of the first district? - -Mr. MARTELLO. At that time I was the deputy commander of the first -district, which was a position whereby I was to assist the captain in -all phases of police work involving the first district area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the first district of the New Orleans Police -Department was the district in which this difficulty in which Oswald -was involved occurred? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have various headquarters of the New Orleans -Police Department broken down by district? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have a station house for the first district and -for other districts? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald confined in the stationhouse for the first -district at that time? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. He was confined in the first -district, which is located at 501 North Rampart Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any notes of your interview with Oswald at -the time you interviewed him? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I did. I made a personal history background -investigation, which is a common practice and when dealing with any -person affiliated with any organization that demonstrates in the -city, and also to attempt to ascertain their ideologies and find out -in what area they would most likely demonstrate, on what side of the -fence, so to speak, as we call it, and see whether or not they were -potential agitators or troublemakers. This would assist the department -in planning for future demonstrations by these persons if they so -demonstrated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you interviewed Oswald and made these notes, -it is my understanding that while you did not prepare a memorandum -on your interview at that time, you subsequently, that is, after the -assassination, on the basis of the notes you did make at the time you -interviewed Oswald, you prepared a memorandum setting forth the results -of your interview with Oswald. Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you did interview him? - -Mr. MARTELLO. [referring to notes]. I interviewed Oswald at 10 a.m. on -Saturday, August 10, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been the day following his arrest? Is -that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. August 9 would have been a Friday? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; that is correct. The day of his arrest was on -Friday, August 9, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I also understand that you provided a copy of the -memorandum that you did prepare to the FBI? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Originally--wait--originally I was contacted by the U.S. -Secret Service on the morning after the assassination of the President -at approximately 3 o'clock in the morning, and I was interviewed -concerning what information I had developed at the time of the -interview. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which agent of the Secret Service did -talk to you? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; I remember something like Querie. No; I believe it -was Mr. Vial, V-i-a-l, who originally spoke to me, and since that time -there were numerous phone calls to my home and at work with various -members of the U.S. Secret Service who spoke to me concerning the -interview that I had with Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also turn over to the Secret Service or to the -FBI the pamphlets and other materials that had been found in Oswald's -possession at the time of his arrest? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. I turned that information over to -the Secret Service. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you subsequently prepared the memorandum to which we -have already referred, and you provided a copy of that memorandum to -the Secret Service or to the FBI? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting document to witness.] I want to show you a -copy of your memorandum, and I will ask you if you yourself have a copy -of your memorandum with you. - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of your memorandum and ask you -to examine it and tell me whether or not that is a copy of your -memorandum. I show you a copy in the form of a report of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation, and I call your attention to the fact that it -is the report of Special Agent John L. Quigley, which indicates that on -November 29, 1963, Agent Quigley did interview you, and he set forth in -the memorandum, starting at the bottom of page 1, what purports to be -the text of the memorandum which you prepared concerning your interview -of Oswald. Would you examine that portion of your report and tell me -whether or not that is or appears to you to be a correct copy of the -memorandum that you prepared? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this point we will physically incorporate into the -record the memorandum of Lieutenant Martello, the report to which -Lieutenant Martello and I have been referring. I provide the reporter -with a copy for that purpose. - -(The report referred to by counsel is here made part of the record:) - -"About 10 a.m. on Saturday, August 10, 1963, I observed a placard -and handbills which had been placed into evidence against an accused -person. This placard contained information concerning the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee. I determined that a subject by the name of LEE HARVEY -OSWALD was arrested on Friday, August 9, 1963 when he was passing out -handbills on Canal Street and was carrying this placard about his -person. - -"Prior to being assigned to the First District, I had worked with the -Intelligence Unit for two years and since I was generally familiar -with various groups and organizations that demonstrate or picket in -the city, I decided I would question this individual to see if I could -develop any information which would be of value and to ascertain if all -interested parties had been notified. - -"I requested the doorman to bring LEE HARVEY OSWALD into the interview -room. I then took the material which was to be used as evidence into -this room. At the same time I reviewed the arrest record on OSWALD and -determined that while he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba literature -on the street he became involved in a disturbance with CELSO MACARIO -HERNANDEZ, CARLOS JOSE BRINGUIER and MIGUEL MARIANO CRUZ. - -"When OSWALD was brought into the office, I introduced myself to him as -Lieutenant FRANCIS L. MARTELLO and I was in uniform at the time. - -"I asked OSWALD if he had any identification papers. At this time -OSWALD produced his wallet. Upon my request, he removed the papers and -I examined them. He had in his wallet a number of miscellaneous papers, -cards and identification items. The only ones that I felt were of any -significance were the following, which I made note of: - -"1. Social Security Card bearing #433-54-3937 in the name of LEE HARVEY -OSWALD. - -"2. Selective Service draft card in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD -bearing #41-114-395-32, classification--4A. (I do not know what draft -board was registered with.) - -"3. Card bearing name LEE HARVEY OSWALD reflecting he was a member of -the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; address listed as 799 Broadway, New -York 3, New York; telephone #ORegon 4-8295, headquarters for Fair Play -for Cuba Committee. Card was signed by V. T. LEE, Executive Secretary; -card issued 5/28/63. - -"4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee in name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter -President, issued June 6, 1963. - -"The notes of my interview reflect that OSWALD gave his date of birth -as October 18, 1938 at New Orleans, Louisiana; that he served three -years in the U.S. Marine Corps and stated he was honorably discharged -on July 17, 1959 from Santa Ana, California. His wife's name was -MARINO _PROSSA_, a white female, age 21. OSWALD stated he had one -daughter, JUNE LEE OSWALD, white female, 17 months of age, and he had -been residing at 4907 Magazine Street with his wife and daughter for -the past four months. OSWALD said that since 1959 he resided at 4709 -Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, Texas and had also lived in Arlington, -Texas. OSWALD said his mother's name was MARGARET OSWALD, his father, -ROBERT LEE OSWALD, being deceased. He told me he had two brothers, -ROBERT OSWALD, living in Fort Worth, Texas, and JOHN OSWALD, Arlington, -Texas. He also stated he lived somewhere on Exchange Place in New -Orleans but could not remember the address, and that he had attended -Beauregard Junior High School and Warren Easton High School, both in -New Orleans, and that he attended Riegeala West Elementary School in -Fort Worth, Texas. OSWALD told me he had moved to New Orleans from Fort -Worth about four months ago. - -"When questioned about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, OSWALD stated -that he had been a member for three months. I asked how he had become -affiliated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and he stated he -became interested in that Committee in Los Angeles, California in 1958 -while in the U.S. Marine Corps. The facts as to just how he first -became interested in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee while in the -Marine Corps are vague, however I recall that he said he had obtained -some Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature and had gotten into some -difficulty in the Marine Corps for having this literature. - -"OSWALD was asked how many members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -were in the New Orleans Chapter and he stated there were 35. I asked -him to identify the members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New -Orleans and he refused to give names of the members or any identifying -data regarding them. OSWALD was asked why he refused and he said that -this was a minority group holding unpopular views at this time and -it would not be beneficial to them if he gave their names. OSWALD -was asked approximately how many people attended meetings of the -New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and he said -approximately five attended the meetings, which were held once a month. -He was asked where and he said at various places in the city. He was -asked specifically at what addresses or locations were the meetings -held and stated that the meetings were held on Pine Street. He was -asked at whose residence the meetings were held and he refused to give -any further information. It should be noted at this time during prior -investigation conducted, while I was a member of the Intelligence Unit, -information was developed that Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature -was found in the 1000 block of Pine Street, New Orleans, which was -near the residence of Dr. LEONARD REISSMAN, a professor at Tulane -University. This investigation was conducted by me. - -"As I remember, Dr. REISSMAN was reported to be a member of the New -Orleans Council of Peaceful Alternatives which is a 'ban the bomb' -group recently established in the city and had conducted meetings and -two or three demonstrations in the city. Knowing that Dr. REISSMAN was -reportedly a member of the New Orleans Council of Peaceful Alternatives -I thought there might be a tie between this organization and the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee. - -"When OSWALD stated that meetings of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -had been held on Pine Street, the name of Dr. REISSMAN came to mind. -I asked OSWALD if he knew Dr. REISSMAN or if he held meetings at Dr. -REISSMAN's house. OSWALD did not give me a direct answer to this -question, however I gathered from the expression on his face and what -appeared to be an immediate nervous reaction that there was possibly a -connection between Dr. REISSMAN and OSWALD; this, however, is purely an -assumption on my own part and I have nothing on which to base this. I -also asked OSWALD if he knew a Dr. FORREST E. LA VIOLETTE, a professor -at Tulane University. I asked him this question because I remembered -that LA VIOLETTE allegedly had possession of Fair Play for Cuba -literature during the year 1962. I cannot remember any further details -about this nor do I have any information that he is or was connected -with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. OSWALD became -very evasive in his answers and would not divulge any information -concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, where the group met, or -the identities of the members. - -"OSWALD was then asked what religion he practiced and he stated he was -a Lutheran and also that he was presently unemployed but had worked -at William B. Reily Coffee Company, New Orleans, about three months, -working on heavy machinery and earned $60 per week. He worked from May -to July 17, 1963 at that company. He further stated that he had worked -for Jax Brewery approximately 1-1/2 months ago. - -"I asked him again about the members of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee in New Orleans and why the information was such a big secret; -that if had nothing to hide, he would give me the information. OSWALD -said one of the members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New -Orleans was named 'John' and that this individual went to Tulane -University. He refused to give any more information concerning the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. - -"Since he did not appear to be particularly receptive at this time, the -interview was concluded and he was returned to the cell block. Prior to -entering the cell block, OSWALD was again allowed to use the telephone. - -"Several hours later after OSWALD was interviewed by a Special Agent of -the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a white female came to the station -and identified herself as Mrs. _MURAT_, who stated she was a relative -of OSWALD and lived on France Street. She stated she wanted to know the -charge against OSWALD and I told her, explaining to her the procedure -whereby OSWALD could be released. She became very reluctant to become -involved in the release of OSWALD as she stated since he was involved -with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, she did not want to get mixed -up with it in any way. I spoke to her concerning OSWALD's background -and she stated OSWALD had a hard time coming up insofar as his family -life was concerned and she felt that this had a direct bearing on his -actions and that he had gone to Russia and stayed over there for a few -years; he married while in Russia and came back to the United States -with his wife. She stated OSWALD did not allow anything but Russian to -be spoken in his home. She was asked why he did not allow English to be -spoken and she related she had spoken to OSWALD'S wife about this and -she said this was his desire. She further stated she had asked OSWALD'S -wife if she liked America and the wife answered 'Yes I do' but said -her husband (OSWALD) did not like America. I did not question her any -further. - -"After Mrs. _MURAT_ left, I decided to further question OSWALD and had -him again brought out of the cell to me. I then asked if he had given -me all of the needed information about his background and he said he -had. I asked him if he lived in Russia and he stated that somebody -had told me this. He then admitted he had lived in Russia for 2-1/2 -years, going there by 'slow boat to Europe.' I asked him how he got -over there and he related he left Fort Worth, Texas, stayed in New -Orleans a few days and then took the 'slow boat to Europe.' He took a -tour of Europe and wound up in Russia. He lived in Moscow and Minsk, -Russia and told me he lived there from October, 1959 to July, 1962. I -asked him if his wife was Russian and he said yes. He said her true -name was MARINO _PROSSA_ and that it was an abbreviation of her name, -MARINO PROSSAKAYA; he said she was an alien M-1. I then asked him if -he was a communist and he said he was not. I asked him if he was a -socialist and he said 'guilty.' We then spoke at length concerning the -philosophies of communism, socialism and America. He said he was in -full accord with the book, Das Kapital, which book was written by KARL -MARX. I know that this book condemns the American way of government in -entirety. I asked him if he thought that the communist way of life was -better than the American way of life and he replied there was not true -communism in Russia. He said that Marx was a socialist and although -communism is attributed to MARX, that MARX was not a communist but a -socialist. He stated this was the reason he did not consider himself -to be a communist. I asked him what his opinion was of the form of -communism in Russia since he had lived there for two years and he -replied 'It stunk.' He said they have 'fat stinking politicians over -there just like we have over here' and that they do not follow the -great concepts of KARL MARX, that the leaders have everything and the -people are still poor and depressed. I asked OSWALD why he would not -allow members of his family to learn English as this would be required -to educate his children and communicate with people. He stated the -reason why he did this was because he hated America and he did not want -them to become 'Americanized' and that his plans were to go back to -Russia. He stated he had already applied to the State Department for -a visa to go back by using the excuse that his wife was a Russian. I -asked him what he thought about President JOHN F. KENNEDY and NIKITA -KHRUSHCHEV. He said he thought they got along very well together. I -then asked him if he had to place allegiance or make a decision between -Russia or America, which he would choose and he said 'I would place -my allegiance at the foot of democracy.' I then asked him if he would -consider himself a 'student of the world,' explaining that I meant by -this a person who attempts to find a Utopia on earth and that he said -he could be classified as such an individual. I asked him if he had any -religious convictions and whether he believed in God since KARL MARX -did not believe in God. I was trying to find out if he was an atheist. -His answer to me was that he was christened as a Lutheran but that -he has not followed any religion since youth. I asked him if he was -an agnostic and he said he could be classified 'as a Marxist in his -beliefs.' I then spoke to him about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -again and asked him if he knew that CASTRO had admitted that he was -a Marxist-Leninist and he said he did. He was then asked if he truly -believed CASTRO was really interested in the welfare of the Cuban -people and he replied that he was not going to discuss the merits and -demerits of CASTRO but was primarily concerned with the poor people -of Cuba and that if this country would have good relations with the -poor people of Cuba and quit worrying about CASTRO, that was his main -concern; he stated this was the reason he was interested in the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee. - -"OSWALD was then returned to the cell block. - -"I then took my notes, along with several copies of the literature of -OSWALD, and placed them in a file folder, in the file cabinet. - -"The day after the assassination of President JOHN F. KENNEDY, Mr. -ADRIAN G. VIAL, U.S. Secret Service, who had spoken to me earlier -at about 3 a.m. Saturday morning, November 23, 1963, wherein he had -obtained information regarding my interview with OSWALD, came to the -First District Station on Saturday, November 23, 1963 at about 3 p.m. -and told me the Secret Service was conducting an official investigation -regarding the assassination of the President of the United States. At -the outset of the interview I got out the original file folder on LEE -HARVEY OSWALD, opened it and gave Mr. VIAL all of the literature I had -obtained from OSWALD, which consisted of some pamphlets, leaflets and -booklets put out by the Fair Play for Cuba Committee headquarters. Upon -going through these pamphlets I discovered a photograph of LEE HARVEY -OSWALD which appeared to be a passport photograph, and a small piece of -white paper containing handwritten notes on same. This photograph and -paper had inadvertently become misplaced with the literature during the -interview I had with OSWALD. This piece of paper, which was folded over -twice and was about 2" by 3" in size, contained some English writing -and some writing which appeared to me to be in a foreign language which -I could not identify. Before I gave this paper to Mr. VIAL, I made a -copy of the information, which is as follows: [See Commission Exhibit -No. 827.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion during the time that you -interviewed Oswald as to whether or not he was telling you the truth -about the matters that you questioned him about and reported in your -memorandum? - -Mr. MARTELLO. He did give me the impression that--in the majority of -the interview--that it was the truth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically--off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your report you indicated that Oswald told you that -he had become interested in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Los -Angeles, Calif., in 1958 while in the U.S. Marine Corps. Is that -correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he was telling you the -truth about that particular aspect of the interview, or do you have any -recollection as to that specific aspect of it? - -Mr. MARTELLO. I wouldn't know exactly, to my recollection, whether or -not he was being truthful in that particular area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the next paragraph--go ahead--are you through? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the next paragraph of your report, you indicate that -Oswald told you that there were about 35 members of the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee here in New Orleans. Did you have any reason to question -that statement? - -Mr. MARTELLO. I didn't believe it was a true statement because of the -fact that there was very little activity, to my knowledge, of the -Fair Play for Cuba Committee in the city of New Orleans, and since -it was such a new organization, or which appeared to me to be a new -organization in the city, it didn't seem likely there would be 35 -members in the community. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever become aware of the existence of any other -member of the group in New Orleans---- - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than Oswald? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No; other than information that had been developed that -there were some possible connections. However, there was no basis in -fact that any other person, to my knowledge, was a member of the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee. This particular man, Oswald, was the first -person that I have come in contact with that I knew for a fact stated -he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is not only the first person you came in contact with -who indicated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, but -he is the only one that you ever saw or heard of in the city of New -Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After this affair with Oswald, as far as you know, there -was no other activity by the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New -Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. The only other activity that I could recall was a passing -out of leaflets. Again this was by Oswald, and that was the only other -time I have known of any activities by this group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You know that Oswald appeared on a radio program -broadcast over WDSU and appeared briefly on a television broadcast over -the same station in connection with his activities? - -Mr. MARTELLO. I have read an account in the local newspaper to that -effect. However, I did not hear the radio broadcast or see the TV -program. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that account in the paper before or after the -assassination? Do you remember? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That was before the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your report refers to a professor at Tulane University -by the name of Dr. Leonard Reissman. Did the department, to your -knowledge, conduct any investigation of Dr. Reissman in an attempt to -associate him with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or to determine -whether or not he was associated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -here in New Orleans? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any personal knowledge of the background of -Dr. Reissman, other than as set forth in your memorandum? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what he teaches at Tulane University? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Further on in your report there is a reference to another -professor at Tulane by the name of La Violette, and you indicate on -that you had some recollection that this professor allegedly had -possession of Fair Play for Cuba literature in 1962. Do you remember -any of the details of that? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any investigation conducted of this particular -professor in an attempt to determine whether he was associated with -Oswald in any way? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he himself -knew either of these two professors or any other professor at Tulane -University, or had ever had anything to do with them or with other -professors? - -Mr. MARTELLO. He did not indicate by name, but there was a meeting -place on Pine Street, the 1000 block of Pine Street in New Orleans, -where there were meetings held. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is meetings of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of meetings? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Just meetings by other groups. There was no indication of -any names, but I had asked him if he held his meetings on Pine Street, -and he reflected--only in gesture--that there was some, or appeared to -be some, connection between the two, but it is mere speculation upon my -part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate one way or the other, directly or -indirectly, that this was the case? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From your memorandum it appears that Oswald told you that -he had worked for the Jax Brewery about 1-1/2 months prior to the time -of the interview. Did you make any check with the Jax Brewing Co. to -determine whether or not this was a true statement? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are unable to state at this time whether it is true -or false that Oswald worked at the Jax Brewery? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. I am unable to state that as a fact. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also indicate that you terminated your interview with -Oswald, and he was permitted to use the telephone, apparently as a -result of which a Mrs. Murat--spelled M-u-r-a-t in the memorandum, but -I believe it is correctly spelled M-u-r-r-e-t---- - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Appeared at the station. Did you personally talk to this -woman who came to the station? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you set forth in your memorandum the statements made -by Mrs. Murret and the position that she took with regard to this whole -thing, and that is a correct summary of the events that occurred with -regard to Mrs. Murret, is it not? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of this woman's feelings -about Oswald or her attitude toward this whole event? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I did. She gave me the impression that she -wanted to help him and she didn't want to become involved, due to the -affiliation, as he stated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba, -and she was leery on becoming involved in obtaining his release. I -explained to her the release procedure whereby, if she desired to -assist him in being released from jail by parole or bond and she didn't -want to become involved in the release procedure--but she did give -me the impression that she was interested in him, as a relative, I -imagine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she subsequently did involve -herself in Oswald's release? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not know if she did become involved in his -release. I don't think she did, because during the second interview -with Lee Harvey Oswald I allowed him to use the telephone in the -captain's office where he called someone, some male, white male, or -some male. I don't know who he spoke to, but obviously his attempt to -get any assistance from Mrs. Murret was unsuccessful. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Murret also told you that Oswald had at one time -been in the Soviet Union, did she not? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you subsequently questioned Oswald concerning -this matter, did you? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in your memorandum you indicate that you had asked -Oswald what his opinion was of the form of communism in Russia, and he -replied that it stunk? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That did in fact occur? Is that right? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you any other attitudes that he -had toward the Soviet Union, or did he particularize or go into more -detail as to why he was dissatisfied with his stay in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Other than what I have in the memorandum where he stated -that the people were still poor and depressed and that the present form -of communism was not what it should be, the ideals, as he stated, were -not in fact the true conditions in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now your memorandum also indicates that you asked Oswald -why he would not permit members of his family to learn the English -language, and the memorandum indicates that Oswald said the reason why -he did not so permit them was because he hated America and he did not -want his family to become Americanized since he planned to go back to -Russia. Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald did tell you that, did he not? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have down here a statement, on the one hand, that -as far as Oswald is concerned the system in Russia, to use his word, -"stunk," and, on the other hand, he said that he hated America and -had indicated a desire to return to Russia. Do you remember how he -presented these ideas, and did he seem to be equally convinced as to -both these propositions, or did he display any emotion concerning -either one of these propositions, or just what was his general attitude? - -Mr. MARTELLO. His general attitude was, he stated that he believed in a -socialistic form of government and that in choosing between America and -Russia, he gave me the impression that he would choose the lesser of -the two evils, in his opinion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate which, in his opinion, was the lesser of -the two evils? - -Mr. MARTELLO. From the way he spoke, the impression I received, it -appeared to me that he felt that Russia was the lesser of the two evils. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express this idea with great forcefulness, or just -sort of a "pox on both your houses" fashion, that really it was just -too ridiculous, and that sort of thing? - -Mr. MARTELLO. With a nonchalant attitude. He was a very cool speaker. I -don't know too much of his formal education. I read an account in the -newspaper about it, but from the way he spoke, it was quite obvious -that he had done a heck of a lot of reading in his lifetime, and his -approach was academic, more or less theories but with no aggressiveness -or emotional outbursts in any way, shape, or form. It was just a very -calm conversation we had, and there was no emotion involved whatsoever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any hesitancy about expressing these ideas to -you as a member of the police department? - -Mr. MARTELLO. None whatsoever, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be bothered by you or afraid of you, or -anything like that? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; none whatsoever. I generally try to establish a -rapport with any group that would demonstrate in the city, which was -one of the objectives I had with Oswald. If in the future he would -demonstrate, why, I could speak to him. It is a lot easier when you -know somebody than when you don't, and they may comply with a request -rather than the ultimates of the law. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, your memorandum also indicates that you asked Oswald -what he thought about President Kennedy and Premier Khrushchev, and -the memorandum also indicates that Oswald said that he thought they -got along very well together. What was his attitude when he made that -remark? Tell us as much as you can remember of the background of that -aspect of your conversation. - -Mr. MARTELLO. The reason I asked that question was again to get his -feelings on where his loyalty would rest between America and Russia, -and it was just another way of asking the same question. He gave me -the impression that he seemed to favor President Kennedy more than he -did Khrushchev in his statement. This is unusual, and I couldn't quite -understand his reason for this reaction, as all of his thoughts seemed -to go into the direction of the Socialist or Russian way of life, but -he showed in his manner of speaking that he liked the President, the -impression I got, or, if he didn't like him, of the two he disliked, -he disliked the President the least. He is a very peculiar type of an -individual, which is typical of quite a few of the many demonstrators -that I have handled during the period of 2 years while in the -Intelligence Division. They seemed to be trying to find themselves or -something. I am not expert in the field or anything, not trying to go -out of my bounds, but quite a few of them, after lengthy interviews you -find that they have some peculiarities about their thinking that does -not follow logically with their movements or their action. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this attitude that Oswald demonstrated toward the -President is an example of that sort of thing? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't seem to fit in with the rest of his statements? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Didn't seem to fit in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more specifically or in any more -detail just what the conversation concerning Kennedy was? - -Mr. MARTELLO. It would only be vaguely at this time, but it was in -the general areas of leadership of the President in comparison to the -leadership of Khrushchev, how each was leading the various countries, -and again an analogy or comparison of the two forms of government, -which one he thought was running it the best, but we didn't go into -this at any great length. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your recollection is quite clear that, in spite of -the fact that Oswald demonstrated a general inclination to favor the -Soviet Union and its institutions, he did in spite of that indicate a -preference for President Kennedy as opposed to Premier Khrushchev? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he in no way demonstrated any animosity or ill -feelings toward President Kennedy? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; he did not. At no time during the interview with -Oswald did he demonstrate any type of aggressiveness in any way, shape, -or form, other than his demonstration on Canal Street with the picket -sign. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider whether Oswald was prone to violence or -was a violent kind of person? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not, for the simple reason that when he -had made the friendship of the people with the anti-Castro groups in -the city and offered them assistance, and when they saw him on Canal -Street with pro-Castro signs they became insulting and abusive to the -point of becoming violent toward him, and he never reacted to the -action that was being directed toward him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These anti-Castro characters attempted to provoke Oswald -into some kind of physical conflict, did they not, as a matter of fact? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't respond? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually learn what became of this case, how it -was disposed of in court? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; the next day, the following Monday. The -following Monday I went to court, Municipal Court, and I heard the -evidence in the case. He was charged--all of them were charged with -creating a scene, which is a typical municipal charge used in minor -disturbances. It expedites everything much nicer, and there was -no--there wasn't any detailed information given other than what he was -charged with. The judge found him guilty and gave him, I believe, $10 -or 10 days, or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald pleaded guilty or not -guilty? - -Mr. MARTELLO. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Cubans who were involved in it were released without -any fine or any punishment, were they not? - -Mr. MARTELLO. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to discuss this thing with -Oswald after the case had been disposed of? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. That was all there was to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason that you didn't regard Oswald -as a violent kind of person, other than the one that you mentioned -concerning his failure to respond to the provocation of the Cubans? - -Mr. MARTELLO. He did not impress me at the time I interviewed him as a -violent person by any of the responses to questions, by observing his -physical makeup. Not in any way, shape, or form did he appear to me -as being violent in any way. He displayed very little emotion and was -completely unconcerned and aloof. Off the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested -in connection with the assassination, were you surprised? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I was, I was very much surprised. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us---- - -Mr. MARTELLO. Because he did not give me the impression of being a -violent individual. He was a very passive type of an individual. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have had experience with other pickets here in -New Orleans on several questions, and have you run into people who -demonstrated a passivity in the face of provocation before? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be this kind of person? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; he did, with one extension of the incident with -the Cubans. Although he was passive in his demonstration, he seemed -to have set them up, so to speak, to create an incident, but when the -incident occurred he remained absolutely peaceful and gentle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just didn't think at the time you heard that Oswald -had been arrested in connection with the assassination that he would -have been capable of performing that act? Or did you have an opinion on -that question? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Well, as far as being capable of an act, I guess -everybody is capable of an act, but as far as ever dreaming or thinking -that Oswald would do what it is alleged that he has done, I would bet -my head on a chopping block that he wouldn't do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just wouldn't have been able to predict that this guy -would have done something like that? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And such an act would appear to you to be entirely -inconsistent with the attitude demonstrated to you while you knew him -here in New Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Absolutely correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate in your memorandum that you went through -your notes and the other materials that were collected at the time -Oswald was arrested, and you found a photograph of Oswald and a small -piece of white paper containing certain handwritten notes, which is -attached to the report that we have. There is a photostatic copy of -a sheet of paper with handwritten notes, and I ask you whether or not -that is a photostatic copy of the paper that you found in the material -you have just described? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the original of this was taken from Oswald at the -time of his arrest? Is that correct? - -Mr. MARTELLO. It wasn't actually taken from him. Due to the amount -of material he had in his possession, and upon Oswald taking various -credentials and identification cards out, it was left--it was -inadvertently picked up with the literature, and I put it in a file -folder and it remained there. I thought no more of it. He had already -been interviewed by the intelligence division of our department. It -was just by coincidence that I kept the notes. Normally I would have -discarded them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You turned the original of the paper that was kept over -to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you not? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I turned the original paper over to the United -States Secret Service along with the pamphlets, all of the pamphlets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the Secret Service still has that -material? - -Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you become involved in any other questioning -of Oswald or investigation of Oswald, or did you become involved in -anything else having anything to do with Oswald back in August of 1963 -other than what we have already talked about? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not see him but one more time, and that -was when he went to court, and that was the last time I saw him. The -only times I spoke to him was the times that we had mentioned during -the interview. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any time when Oswald may have been -interviewed by other officers or personnel of the police department? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I was not. I understand that he was interviewed -at the time of his arrest by members of the intelligence division of -the New Orleans Police Department. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you interview any of the Cubans that were arrested at -the same time Oswald was arrested? - -Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not. I believe the Cubans were paroled. -That is it, they were paroled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did the New Orleans Police -Department, to your knowledge, engage in any investigation concerning -Oswald or his prior activities in New Orleans? - -Mr. MARTELLO. Not to my knowledge, sir. They may have, but at that time -I was in the First District, assigned to the First District, and I -wouldn't know if they had conducted any further investigations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything that you think the Commission -ought to know about that is within your knowledge, that I haven't asked -you about or we haven't covered so far? If you can I would like to have -you indicate it so that we could have the benefit of it. - -Mr. MARTELLO. I think you did a very good job on me. I don't think -there are any questions that haven't been answered. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, I have no other questions at this point. -I do want to thank you, Lieutenant Martello, for the cooperation you -have shown to us, and on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you -very sincerely for your coming here and giving the testimony that you -have given. Thank you very much. - -Mr. MARTELLO. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES HALL STEELE, JR. - -The testimony of Charles Hall Steele, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, -at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Charles Hall Steele, Jr., 1488 Madrid Street, New Orleans, La., after -first being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Hall Steele, Jr., is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your address is 1488 Madrid Street here in New Orleans? - -Mr. STEELE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that spelled S-T-E-E-L-E? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., attorney on the legal staff on -the President's Commission, investigating the facts and circumstances -surrounding the assassination last November of President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, general -counsel for the Commission? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter were Senate Joint Resolution -137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the -assassination of the late President; is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. -Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties. -That was enclosed also in the letter? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take -testimony, both before the Commission and also by way of deposition, -such as in this instance. You received that also? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have appeared here voluntarily today, is that -right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From those papers that you received, did you become aware -of the purpose for the existence of the President's Commission, that -it is enjoined by legislation to investigate the circumstances and all -the facts relating to the assassination of President John Fitzgerald -Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, and the subsequent death and -murder of Lee Harvey Oswald on the 24th of November 1963? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. We of the legal staff are questioning various people, -sometimes before the Commission and sometimes in private depositions, -such as this one, who in the ordinary course of their lifetime touched -the life of Lee Harvey Oswald, or someone in his family, the facts of -which might help the Commission in its ultimate determination of this -tragedy, and we understand that you are one of those who came into -contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time he lived in New Orleans; -is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. First, are you a native born American? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mr. STEELE. In New Orleans; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your father likewise is a native born American, is that -right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In Louisiana? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother? - -Mr. STEELE. From New Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. How old are you? - -Mr. STEELE. Twenty. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a student? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, that's hard to say. I haven't graduated or got my -diploma yet from Delgado. However, I finished a course up there, and -they let me out. - -Mr. JENNER. Delgado--is that a trade school? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you working part time or what? - -Mr. STEELE. I was working part time and going to school. I was working -after school, and then after they let me out I started to work full -time. However, right now, I am waiting to go into the service. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a young lady by the name of Charlene Stouff? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she a friend of yours? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you accompanied her to the -employment service office? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. STEELE. As to the date I couldn't say, but that's the date they -took films of me passing out leaflets. - -Mr. JENNER. On Canal Street? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, not on Canal Street; it was in front of the Trade -Mart Building. - -Mr. JENNER. What street is the Trade Mart Building on? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I don't know the street offhand. I know where it is. -I have been there many times for different things; it's down the street -from Canal Street, just one block. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you have been there many times? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; buying wholesale stuff for my father, and all. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become involved in that passing out literature -business? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, she had to take this test for the school board -building. - -Mr. JENNER. She did? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Charlene Stouff? - -Mr. STEELE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. For what purpose did she have to take this test? - -Mr. STEELE. Applying for a job. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a job? - -Mr. STEELE. Secretary of some sort; I don't know exactly what job that -was to be. - -Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied her? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, she asked me if I would drive her down there, and I -drove her down. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the U.S. Employment Service? - -Mr. STEELE. I couldn't say. It's the one on Canal Street, approximately -in the 500 block, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed; tell me all about it, what happened, -and everything. - -Mr. STEELE. To tell you the truth, I never thought any more about it -until Mr. Rice came to see me, but I was just sitting around there -and had about an hour to kill more or less. I was there a good while -waiting for her. - -Mr. JENNER. You were waiting for her to take the test? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened? - -Mr. STEELE. This gentleman came up and introduced himself to me. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he look like? - -Mr. STEELE. It was Oswald, he turned out to be. He introduced himself -and asked me if I would like to make a couple of dollars. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he introduce himself as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I couldn't tell you that. I presume he did, but -that's only presumption on my part. I don't remember names too well; -just faces, and that's about all, so then after he asked me if I would -like to make some money, I asked him, "Doing what?" and he said, -"Passing out these leaflets in front of the Trade Mart Building," -and I said, "About how long will it take?" and he said, "About 15 or -20 minutes at the most." I figured $2 for 20 minutes, and I am going -on vacation next week, that could come in handy, and so I said, "All -right," that I would go over there and do it, and so in the meantime -Charlene had come back. She had finished her test, and she had to go -back to the school board building to see some guy that she saw before -about the job, so I brought her over to that gentleman, and then I -went back over to the Trade Mart Building, where he and another fellow -came up, and he handed me these leaflets, so I just started passing -them out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you look at them before you started passing them out? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I didn't look at them. I have walked down Canal Street -myself a lot of times, and somebody has handed me a leaflet like that, -and I just take it, and most of the time I just throw it in the nearest -trash can; I don't read them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sign, or was anybody carrying a sign there? - -Mr. STEELE. No; but these pictures that Mr. Rice showed me, the FBI -agent, I saw myself on those, and there was a gentleman in the rear who -was also passing out leaflets, and I never saw him at the time I was -there, but he's in the pictures. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he look like, this man who was there also passing -out leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I shouldn't say this, I guess, but he was sort of -Cuban looking, like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Olive skinned, do you mean? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; olive skinned, but he was back in the rear, passing -out leaflets, and I never did even see him. - -Mr. JENNER. And this man, Oswald, who asked you to pass out the -leaflets for 15 or 20 minutes, was he also passing out the leaflets at -the same time? - -Mr. STEELE. I never noticed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice whether he was there, or whether he remained -there after he gave you these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Oh, he was there. In fact, he had leaflets in his hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was passing them out? - -Mr. STEELE. I guess so, but, I mean, to say that he was just standing -there passing them out, I didn't pay any attention to that. I was just -trying to get mine passed out and get my $2 and leave. I didn't even -look at him after a few minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you more or less walk up and down in front of the -building passing out these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. More or less. I figured the sooner I got rid of them the -sooner I could leave, so that's all I was interested in doing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody talk to you about it, or say what the purpose -of this was? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody protest that you were passing out leaflets of -which they disapproved? - -Mr. STEELE. Nobody. As a matter of fact, I didn't have any trouble -getting rid of them. The people just sort of grabbed them as they -passed by. It was just something free, you know, and I guess there's -always a feeling that when you get something free you might as well -take it. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you go into the unemployment office -with your girl friend? - -Mr. STEELE. Before 12, possibly 11 or 11:30; I don't remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the conversation with your girl friend when -you told her that you were going to pass out these leaflets in front of -this building? - -Mr. STEELE. No; she was just saying she had to go back to the school -board building to see this guy. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her as to whether she -would accompany you? - -Mr. STEELE. Accompany me where? - -Mr. JENNER. Accompany you to where you were going to pass out these -leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you drive her somewhere before you went back to pass -out these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. To the school board building. - -Mr. JENNER. The Orleans parish school board? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return there and pick her up? - -Mr. STEELE. I returned there, but I didn't pick her up. I don't know -what happened, but I missed her somehow. - -Mr. JENNER. You say Lee Oswald told you it would take 15 or 20 minutes -to pass out these leaflets. What time did you get back to pass them out -after you had taken your girl friend to the school board building? - -Mr. STEELE. I don't know what time it was, but I figure I was in front -of the Trade Mart Building about 15 minutes--12 or 15 minutes; I think -it was about 25 after 12, maybe 20 minutes after, when I got there. It -only takes a few minutes to get from the school board building down to -the Trade Mart. I had to be to work for 2 o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. You had to go to work that afternoon, that this happened? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; I had to be at work at 2 o'clock that afternoon. -Later on that night she called me and told me that my picture was on -television. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see her before she came to see you about your -picture being on television? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I saw her later. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw her later that night? - -Mr. STEELE. I don't think any more that night; I think it was the next -day. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about passing out -these leaflets. - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her and what did she say to you? - -Mr. STEELE. She told me that I was in trouble, that there was some kind -of a deal on television about passing out these leaflets or something, -and from what she had read before, it sounded like communism, or -something. Now, I had taken a course in high school on that, so I knew -a little bit about that, so I thought I had better tell my boss about -it, which I did. - -Mr. JENNER. You told your boss about it? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; after I had that talk with her, when she told me I was -in trouble. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what time it was she called you and told -you about this being on television? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I know it was after 6 o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. That same day, when this occurred? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; it was that same night. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you told your boss about it? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That same night? - -Mr. STEELE. That same night. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was your boss? - -Mr. STEELE. Henry Muller. - -Mr. JENNER. Henry Muller? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I think it was Alfred Muller. - -Mr. JENNER. Alfred Muller? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, I think that's Henry's brother. - -Mr. JENNER. What did your girl friend say when you had this discussion -with her, to the effect that this literature might be communistic, or -whatever it was she said? Was she alarmed? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, she was pretty excited, but we never really discussed -it. I just told her I didn't know a thing about it, that I just made $2 -by passing these leaflets out, but I didn't know what it was all about. - -Mr. JENNER. But she did think you were in trouble? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, from what she saw on television, she thought I was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction? - -Mr. STEELE. I got a little scared and worried, and so I called the FBI -and told them about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You called the FBI right away? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some pictures being taken during that time -you were passing out this literature? - -Mr. STEELE. At the time, when I noticed the cameras, that's when I -looked down at the leaflets to see what I was passing out. - -Mr. JENNER. That's when you really took an interest in these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. That's when I looked at one of them and saw what it -was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go and call the TV station? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; I called three of them. One of them didn't know -anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you call the TV stations? - -Mr. STEELE. To get my picture off of the television. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you told your father in the meantime? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I called him, but they were out to dinner. They had -gone to Camp Leroy Johnson, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any trouble during the time you were passing out -these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nobody tried to interfere with your passing them out? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nobody was arrested? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The police didn't come? - -Mr. STEELE. No. I think you are talking about a different occasion now. -I didn't know anything about that at the time, not until I was in the -Federal Building, and they said something about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You say somebody else was helping pass out these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it somebody that walked up with Oswald? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But when you arrived on the scene, he was not there, is -that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Do you mean Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and this man that walked up with him. - -Mr. STEELE. No; I waited for him. - -Mr. JENNER. For Oswald? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; I waited for him maybe a minute, or a few seconds--I -don't know how long it was, but it wasn't long. - -Mr. JENNER. And then he came? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And somebody was accompanying him? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know that man? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to you? - -Mr. STEELE. He was introduced to me, but I don't remember him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually look at these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; after a few minutes. When I saw the cameras, I got -suspicious then and looked at one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have two supplies of these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances. About how many had you given out -at the time you quit? - -Mr. STEELE. I had given out one supply and had gone back, and he had -handed me some more, and at that time I seen the cameras, and that's -when I looked to see what I was passing out. - -Mr. JENNER. Looked at these leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; at the leaflets. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, and then what happened? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, it didn't sound right to me. I don't remember exactly -what it said, but it said something about keeping hands off of Cuba, or -something like that, and it just didn't sound right, and I knew that we -were on bad terms with Cuba. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? - -Mr. STEELE. I told Oswald that I didn't want any more to do with it, -and I wasn't going to pass out any more leaflets, and he said, "Well, -all right," and he gave me the $2, and I left. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't pursue it any further? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But he went ahead and gave you the $2; is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; and then I walked off. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any leaflets left when you left the scene? - -Mr. STEELE. No. I got rid of the ones I had left. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you threw the -remainder of the leaflets in a trash can there at the scene? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; I threw what I had left in the trash can. I mean, when -I left there, I didn't have any with me. - -Mr. JENNER. You threw the remaining leaflets away that you had? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir; I threw them in the trash can around there some -place, but after leaving that spot, you know. I mean, the can wasn't -right there where I was passing them out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald about whether -these leaflets were or were not communistic in nature? - -Mr. STEELE. I did ask him if they were communistic, and he said they -were not. He said they were from an organization affiliated with Tulane -University, or something to that effect, of somehow being connected -with Tulane. I believe I had asked him something about the leaflets -before, and he told me about them being connected with Tulane--some -connection there. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I do -remember him telling me about that, you know, the other time I asked -him, and so then I told him I didn't want any more to do with it, and -he gave me the $2. - -Mr. JENNER. He did persist in your continuing to pass them out? - -Mr. STEELE. No; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he deny they had any connection with communism, in so -many words? - -Mr. STEELE. He denied that; yes, sir. He didn't really say what it was -for. - -Mr. JENNER. He just said it was from an organization connected with -Tulane University? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But that didn't reassure you, did it? - -Mr. STEELE. No: it didn't. It made me stop and wonder though if it was -or wasn't, but then I didn't think any more about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Anyhow, you didn't want any more to do with it once you saw -the cameras, did you? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. And you got your $2, which was the price agreed on, and you -left, is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. This man that came along with Oswald, have you ever seen -him since then? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen him before that time? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between Oswald and the man he -brought along with him that you might have overheard? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the connection between them, if -any? - -Mr. STEELE. The same as mine. He was getting them out of this -unemployment place, just like he did me. - -Mr. JENNER. When you first went into this unemployment place, did you -notice Oswald in there at that time? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first notice him? - -Mr. STEELE. When he came up to me and asked me if I wanted to make a -couple of dollars. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that, when you first noticed him--when he -approached you, and what he said. First, how was he dressed, if you -remember? - -Mr. STEELE. He had on a white shirt and tie and black pants, and he had -a little briefcase with him, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Probably containing a supply of these leaflets, do you -think? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But he had a little briefcase that you saw, is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; he had a briefcase with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of the name Hidell--A. J. Hidell? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never heard of him? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What did the FBI say to you after you talked to them? - -Mr. STEELE. That night? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STEELE. They told me they couldn't do anything about keeping my -picture off of television, and that the best thing for me to do would -be to call the stations and tell them about it, and ask them to keep my -picture off. - -Mr. JENNER. All right now; have you told me everything you know about -this incident? - -Mr. STEELE. As far as I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. And everything as far as your participation in this is -concerned? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever contact you again to pass out any more -leaflets? - -Mr. STEELE. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anyone ever contact you on his behalf and ask you to -pass out leaflets at all? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm going to show you some pictures that are marked Pizzo -Exhibits Nos. 453-A and 453-B, and Exhibit No. 1, Deposition, Carlos -Bringuier, April 7, 1964. Disregarding the various arrows and marks, -because they will serve only to confuse you, do you see the man known -as Lee Harvey Oswald on any of those pictures? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; in all three. - -Mr. JENNER. All three? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Point to the one on your left, which is 453-A, which is -Oswald? - -(The witness has pointed to the figure of a man over whose head there -is a green cross.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the second picture, which is 453-B, do you see him on -that one? - -(The witness points to a man over whose head there is a green vertical -stripe.) - -Mr. JENNER. And do you see him on the third picture, which is the one -identified as Exhibit No. 1? Point to him. - -(Let the record show that the witness has indicated by pointing the -figure of the man identified as Lee Harvey Oswald.) - -Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" on his body, if you will. - -(Let the record show that the witness has put a red "X" mark on the -body of the man known to be Lee Harvey Oswald, and that he is the same -man shown in each picture, and so identified by the witness.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, taking a look at 453-A, you see there is an arrow over -the head of a man to the left of the man over whose head you put the -green cross? - -Mr. STEELE. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. You see that arrow over the head of the man to the left of -the man with the green cross over his head? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize this man over the head of whom there is an -arrow? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he there the day that you were passing out this -literature? - -Mr. STEELE. Not that I could see at the time, but from previous -pictures that I have seen, he apparently was though. - -Mr. JENNER. Previous pictures that you have seen from whom? - -Mr. STEELE. The FBI and the Secret Service. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you shown on any of these pictures now? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are? - -Mr. STEELE. Oh, am I shown? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you see yourself on any of these pictures? - -Mr. STEELE. No, I don't; not on these. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you see anybody else on those pictures that you now -recognize as having been present on the first occasion, on the occasion -when you were there, other than Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. STEELE. That I remember; no. - -Mr. JENNER. No one else? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no incident on the day that you passed out this -literature? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And the police didn't come? - -Mr. STEELE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that, August 16? - -Mr. STEELE. I can't give the date on that; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in August though, wasn't it? - -Mr. STEELE. It was in August all right, but I don't remember the exact -date. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that some people were taking pictures? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remember your girl friend calling you that evening -and saying you were on television? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; she came over. - -Mr. JENNER. She came over to your place? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. I remember now; she came over. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you then? - -Mr. STEELE. I was at work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI then? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the FBI said what? - -Mr. STEELE. I had asked them about getting my picture off of -television, and they said they couldn't do anything about it, that -there was nothing wrong with it--that it was news. - -Mr. JENNER. They couldn't interfere with the news media? - -Mr. STEELE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what they told you? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call the television stations? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you tell them? - -Mr. STEELE. I asked them if they would take my picture off of the -television screen. I told them who I was, and I told them about it, -that I was the gentleman that had passed out the literature, and I told -them that my father was with the sheriff's office, and it wouldn't be -too good with him, and at the time didn't know what I was passing out, -until I had seen the cameras, and then looked at them, and they said, -"Well, all right then," and it never came on television anymore, until -the President's death. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe this man who came along with Oswald. - -Mr. STEELE. Right now I haven't the slightest idea what he looked like. -I think, as I recall, he was about Oswald's height. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald was 5 foot 9. You say he was the same height, or -taller, or what? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, he wasn't shorter. He was either the same height or -slightly taller. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that -when you were interviewed by special agents of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation on the 24th of November, 1963, that you told them that he -was aged 19 or 20 years, that he was about 6 feet tall, slender built, -dark hair, and olive complexion? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the way you recall him? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes; he was slender built and about my complexion. - -Mr. JENNER. You have dark skin? - -Mr. STEELE. Caucasian, dark. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you say he weighed? - -Mr. STEELE. About 170, 175, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall are you? - -Mr. STEELE. Six feet. - -Mr. JENNER. Would this man have been about your height? - -Mr. STEELE. I guess so, but it didn't seem like he was quite as tall as -I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was more slender than you? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed? - -Mr. STEELE. Sport shirt, as far as I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. White or colored, or what? - -Mr. STEELE. I don't even remember the man right now, to tell you the -truth. I just have a very vague recollection of what he looked like. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are sure he was slender built? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the right, if you wish to exercise it, of -reading over your deposition and signing it, or you may waive that -right and let the court reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will -be forwarded direct to Washington. What do you prefer to do? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, I will do what you consider best. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you are willing to waive the necessity of reading -your deposition and signing it then? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurred that you -haven't told me about, or that I haven't asked you about, that would be -of assistance to the Commission? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in voluntarily and -testifying. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES HALL STEELE, SR. - -The testimony of Charles Hall Steele, Sr., was taken on April 7, 1964, -at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Charles Hall Steele, Sr., 1488 Madrid Street, New Orleans, La., after -first being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Sr., is that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have seen the letter received by your son from Mr. -Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, have you not? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have read it? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also read the documents that were enclosed with -that letter? - -Mr. STEELE. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, those documents, Mr. Steele, consist of Senate -Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to -investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the -Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing -that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and a copy of -the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the -Commission and also by deposition, as in this case. - -The Commission is directed to investigate all the facts and -circumstances surrounding or bearing upon the assassination of our -late President Kennedy. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the various -members of the legal staff of the Commission, and we are here today -taking depositions of witnesses who may have in some way touched the -lives of the Oswald family during their residence here in New Orleans. - -You have told us that you have some concern about your boy in this -matter, and you have also told me of your position in this community -both as a family man and a public official. I think it will be proper, -due to the circumstances of your situation, to put a statement from you -into the record of these proceedings before the Commission, and so, -with your permission, I will ask you some questions at this time. - -Mr. STEELE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are a native-born American here, and your wife is -a native-born American, and all your children were born here, is that -right? - -Mr. STEELE. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In and around this area? - -Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are how old now, sir? - -Mr. STEELE. I am 44, but I will be 45 the 15th of August, this -year--1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any children in addition to Charles Hall, Jr.? - -Mr. STEELE. I have a daughter Jacqueline; she's a twin to Charles, and -I have one boy Gerald, who is aged 13. - -Mr. JENNER. Jacqueline, what is she doing? - -Mr. STEELE. She is at Mercy Hospital, a student nurse. She will -graduate in August. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about yourself, Mr. Steele? - -Mr. STEELE. I am a deputy sheriff, attached to the Civil District -Court, and an officer of the court. I own a small business known as the -Liberty Coffee and Household Co. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a service man, are you? - -Mr. STEELE. 23 years on active National Guard status, subject to 24 -hours' notice. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in World War II? - -Mr. STEELE. I was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that service? - -Mr. STEELE. I was inducted right here in 1941, June or July; I don't -remember exactly, and I went on duty with the AFRTC, at Fort Knox, Ky. -That's the Air Force Replacement Training Center, at Fort Knox, and -then I was transferred to the 5th Armored Division, and that division -was sent to England, but I didn't go with them. I was in the cadre that -was sent to the Tank Destroyer Battalion at Camp Forest, Tenn., and we -pulled winter maneuvers, after which they found that our unit was not -ready to go overseas, so we were disbanded and I was then sent to the -631st Tank Destroyer Battalion at Camp Shelby, where I was a sergeant, -and then I was sent to the 773d Tank Destroyer Battalion, and I finally -ended up after 2 years in Charleston, S.C., in charge of a G.U. -ward, so I spent two lovely years living off of Uncle Sam, and I was -discharged as a staff sergeant, and then I went to Fort Sill, Okla., -in 1949, after being commissioned in the National Guard in 1948, and -received my field commission in artillery, and I have stepped my way -up to where I am now a major, general staff, assistant G-4. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; now tell me about your boy. Had he ever been in -trouble before this thing occurred? - -Mr. STEELE. He never had a police record, or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you Catholic? - -Mr. STEELE. My family is; I am not. I am Presbyterian, but the children -are Catholic. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I take it your boy has never been in any serious -trouble? - -Mr. STEELE. He had better not be. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard his story, didn't you, Mr. Steele, about what -happened on this occasion? - -Mr. STEELE. I started that story off with him from the minute he hit -that front door, and I have been right with him on down through the -FBI, the Secret Service, and everybody, right on through, and this is -the only time that he has ever been questioned outside of my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he is your son, and I know you have his welfare in -mind all the time, and there is a possibility that fathers might become -prejudiced in matters of this kind, but knowing him as you do and being -his father, and knowing his weaknesses and so forth, do you think now -that he is telling the truth about this? - -Mr. STEELE. Well, let me put it this way. In my experience, being a -battery commander and handling 60 to 70 men at one time, and I have -been in court, and with my experience and all that, I have honestly -tried to trick him, using the same tactics that you might say the best -attorneys would use, and I feel that he is honestly telling the truth. -I feel he has told that story over and over again in exactly the same -way, so that's the only conclusion I can come to. In my own mind, I am -positive he didn't know what he was doing at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. You gave him a good cross examination, in other words, is -that right? - -Mr. STEELE. Believe me, because I was under a nervous tension over -this, I'll tell you. I was just promoted in August, to my present -position, and actually I am not a State officer; I am a Federal -officer, and at the same time I had been in the middle of a campaign, -running for the democratic nomination for committeeman, and I am a -member of the pledged electors' group, and I advocate that I as a -Democrat am pledged to the choice of the Democratic Party, and I just -couldn't stand by and let something like this come up and take that all -away from me, so I certainly did cross-examine him, and I got to the -bottom of it, and I'm satisfied that he was not at fault. He had a weak -moment in which he saw a chance to make a couple of bucks, but other -than that, he didn't have the slightest idea of what he was doing. I'm -satisfied of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else that you would like to add to what -you have said, Mr. Steele? - -Mr. STEELE. No; I think that's about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege, if you wish, to read and -sign your deposition, or you may waive that, and the reporter will -transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to -Washington. What is your preference on that? - -Mr. STEELE. I will waive it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Steele; thank you for coming in and -testifying voluntarily. I wanted your background in the record, in view -of the fact that your boy did have personal contact with Oswald and -particularly because of your position in the community, I wanted your -background in the record. Thank you very much. - -Mr. STEELE. I think I can promise you that he is not going to get into -any more trouble. We had that out over and over, and I don't think he -will be passing out any more leaflets. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we all believe that, Mr. Steele; well, thank you -again for giving your statement. It will be of help to the Commission -in evaluating the testimony of your son, by showing his family -background, and so forth. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PHILIP GERACI III - -The testimony of Philip Geraci III, accompanied by his mother, was -taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and -Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -(Reporter's Note: The witness, Philip Geraci, was accompanied into the -hearing room by his mother.) - -Philip Geraci, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Lee Rankin wrote you a letter last week in which -he told you that I would contact you, did he not? - -Mr. GERACI. A letter? No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not receive a letter from Mr. Rankin? - -Mrs. GERACI. Would you please give us one. We would like to have it to -keep. - -Mr. GERACI. Somebody said they sent one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't receive it? - -Mr. GERACI. No. - -Mrs. GERACI. We did not receive it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I think in point of fact that is right. I think that -the decision to take your testimony was made subsequent to the time -that the letters were sent out to other witnesses. Now you are---- - -Mrs. GERACI. May I make a statement before we go any further? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that Mrs. Geraci is in the -hearing room at her request to assist her son and give moral support. - -Mrs. GERACI. And we want no publicity at all, please. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have already given to the reporters the names of some -of the witnesses who came in, but we have already been advised that -you did not want any publicity at this point, and we did not give your -name to the newspaper reporter or make any statement about Philip's -appearance here. - -Mr. GERACI. Does that mean I can't tell anyone about it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you can settle among yourselves. - -Mr. GERACI. I told everybody I went to a doctor's appointment this -evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Handing documents to witness] Now I want to give you a -copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress and of the Executive order -that I have just referred to, and also of the Rules of Practice adopted -by the Commission concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. -Those rules provide that technically you are entitled to 3 days' notice -before you appear to have your testimony taken, but you are entitled to -waive that notice, and I assume that, since you are here, you would be -willing to waive it with regard to the testimony. Is that right, Philip? - -Mr. GERACI. I don't know. - -Mrs. GERACI. Yes. Well, they did not notify us 3 days ahead of time, -but that is all right. We are here. They called yesterday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated that you are willing to go ahead with -the testimony instead of waiting for the 3 days' notice? - -(Mrs. Geraci nodded assent.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Philip, would you state your full name for the record, -please? - -Mr. GERACI. Philip Geraci, the Third. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. GERACI. 2201 Green Acres Road. - -Mr. LIEBELER. New Orleans? - -Mr. GERACI. Metairie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. GERACI. February 21, 1948. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are now about 16 years old or 17 years old? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. Well, I am 16. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. GERACI. East Jefferson High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are--what?--a junior there now, or a senior? - -Mr. GERACI. No, sophomore, 10th grade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 10th grade. Do you know a man by the name of Carlos -Bringuier? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet him? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, this was summer, last summer, some place around the -beginning of it, and--you want me to tell you everything about it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GERACI. Well, I was down there with a friend. [Addressing mother.] -Do you think I should give his name? - -(Mrs. Geraci nodded assent.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please do. You were down where? - -Mr. GERACI. Down there in New Orleans, I mean on Canal Street. We had -to go to some radio shop. It was Bill Dwyer. That is a friend. And we -were down there and we wanted to go in radio shops and everything, so I -saw--going down there I saw, looking to the side, that they had a sign -saying "Casa Roca," and I took Spanish in school, so I was interested, -and I went in there and--well, he was a little reluctant, but we went -anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was a little reluctant? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, a little bit. He didn't get mixed up in this or -anything. And then, well, when we were in there, we looked around a -little at everything, then I asked the man there--I didn't know it was -Carlos Bringuier then--I asked him was he a Cuban. He said yes, he -was an exile, and everything, you know. I asked him a few things, I -guess--I don't know exactly what--you know, just a little conversation -like. Then I ask him was there anything that I as an American could do. -He said, well, he didn't know, to come back later. You know, he acted -as though maybe--like--just like he just didn't want me to help or -something like that, I guess, so we left and went home, and that was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when did you see him again, if you did? You did see -him again, didn't you? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. GERACI. I don't remember when. I remember I saw him a few times, I -couldn't exactly say how many, but I went back another time when I was -in town, I stopped off and saw him, and I saw him another time. Then -I think it was about the fourth time that I was there that I saw Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get to that, did you ever raise any money -for Carlos' activities? - -Mr. GERACI. Not until the third time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened? - -Mr. GERACI. No; wait. Come to think of it, I think it was about the -fifth time that I saw Oswald; something like that. I remember I went -back--it was about the third time--after asking him--I asked him, "Do -you think it is possible to raise donations?" And he said, "Well, yes; -it is possible." And he showed me these little yellow slips, sort of -like yellow, and they were like receipts if you paid, and he said I -could get them--you know--if I wanted to, I could, you know, go, and -he could give them to me, and go and get donations and give the people -this receipt and bring the money back to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So did you take some of the receipts? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you get some money? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you gave it to Carlos? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; it was about $10. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned that money over to him? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is it correct that on the day that you came into the -Casa Roca to give this money to Carlos that you met Lee Oswald? - -Mr. GERACI. I don't know if I turned in the money or not. No; I don't -think I turned in money, but I couldn't be sure. I remember I went -there, and that is the time the last guy, Vance Blalock, came along -with me. It was his first time and everything. And we went in there--I -might have turned it in, I am not too sure. Maybe I did; maybe I -didn't. I can't remember too much, but I was in there anyway talking to -him and that is when I met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is when you met Oswald? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; you want me to tell all that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; tell me all the circumstances of how Oswald---- - -Mr. GERACI. Everything I know? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Met you and everything you know about it, what the -conversation was, who was there. - -Mr. GERACI. Well, we were--Vance and me went in there, Vance and I, -we went into there, I introduced Vance to Carlos, and Carlos started -talking to him about, you know, freedom and all that, democracy and -everything. Then later on while we were talking, Lee Oswald came in, -you know, while we were talking, and he came in a little while later. -He was by himself and he seemed a little nervous. I remember he was -dressed just like in that picture there shows. [Indicating photograph.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a picture here on the table? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir; well he was dressed something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which has previously been marked as Exhibit 1 to the -affidavit of Jesse J. Garner. I show you that picture. [Exhibiting -photograph to witness.] You say Lee was dressed something like that -when you met him? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; you know, he had on a tie and a shirt, short sleeved -shirt, and sort of like dress pants. I don't know the color of them, -but they were sort of like dress pants, just about as much as this. -[Indicating photograph.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that individual in the picture as being -the man that you saw in the store that day? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, tell you the truth, when I first heard about it in -the papers and on the TV, I didn't recognize him. See, I forgot that I -met this guy over there, you know, I forgot about it, and I thought I -didn't meet him. It wasn't until the FBI man came to my house and he -showed me a picture of him when he was first under arrest, and he got -arrested in August, the 4th I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He showed you a picture that had been taken of Lee when -he had been under arrest here in New Orleans? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; it was one of those things with three things, showing -him from the front, the side, and his face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then recognize the man in the picture that they -showed you as being the man that you met in the store that day? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, you see, I didn't exactly recognize him maybe, but -anyway I was pretty sure it was him though. He said--he showed me that -and said, "Do you ever remember an ex-marine--and then I remembered -there was a guy who was dressed something like that who was an -ex-marine who came in, and he did have a funny name, you know, like -Lee. It's a little unusual, it's kind of rare, and I remembered the -last name was a little hard, so it just fits that that was him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now what kind of conversations did you have with this -fellow or what did you talk about? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, first---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it now, there were this marine, Lee -Oswald, and Carlos, and Vance Blalock and yourself. Is that right? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, while we were talking, this man came up. He was in -a big truck, some big truck. I never looked at it closely. He came up -and stopped, and the man rushed in, and he was wearing--well, he was -wearing one of these--like a cap like you see them wearing over in -England. I don't know what kind it is, but anyway it is the kind that -truckdrivers wear, I guess, and he looked kind of Spanish. Maybe he -was a Cuban exile. He was kind of fat, and he came in and showed Carlos -this broken radio that he had, so Carlos left and he started fixing the -radio and left us to talk to ourselves, Lee and me and my friend. Well, -he is the only other person I know that came in. I don't know if he -knew what was going on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now tell us the conversation that you and Lee and Vance -and Carlos had, the best you can recall it. - -Mr. GERACI. Well, Carlos and me and Vance were kind of talking among -ourselves, and he came in and said, "Excuse me," and, you know, he -acted a little nervous and things like that. He asked, "Is this the -Cuban headquarters, Cuban exile headquarters?" And, "Are you a Cuban -exile?" You know, the way I acted when I first went in there. Just -asked him a few questions, was he a Cuban exile, and Carlos said yes. -He asked him some questions like was he connected with the Cosa Nostra, -La Cosi Nostra. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked that? - -Mr. GERACI. Oswald; he asked that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of Carlos? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; and Carlos said no, he wasn't. Oswald then asked where -was his headquarters--in Miami? And Carlos said yes; and he said--let's -see--and then Oswald asked, said something like, "It is kind of -exciting meeting someone"--I don't know if he said exciting--but he -expressed something like that. He said, you know, he expressed wonder -or something like that at meeting somebody who was a real Cuban exile, -you know, someone who is really trying to do something to help free -Cuba and all that. He didn't really say much. In the papers they said -he tried to join and all that. That must have been later, because this -was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't do that when you were there? - -Mr. GERACI. No. This was his first visit. As far as I can make out, it -must have been, and he asked a few questions like that. Carlos just -answered real simply and all that, he didn't go into any big speeches, -you know, with them, like he did for me and Vance, just answered his -questions simply. Then when the man came in with the broken radio, -Carlos left, and that left Oswald, me, and Vance by ourselves. - -Then, well, we asked--you know, we were a little interested in -guerrilla warfare ourselves and things like that, and he said, well, -he was an ex-marine, said he was in the Marines once. He said he -learned a little bit about that stuff, and he said a few things about -guerrilla warfare I remember, like he said the way to derail a train -was to wrap chain around the ties of the track and then lock it with -a padlock and the train would derail. He said the thing he liked best -of all was learning how to blow up the Huey P. Long Bridge. He said -you put explosive at each end on the banks and blow it up, and that -leaves the one column standing. And he said how to make a homemade -gun and how to make gunpowder, homemade gunpowder. He just went into -those real simply. He didn't really, you know, tell us how to do it or -anything, just said like if you want to make a homemade gun, you know, -do something like--you know, the thing you pull back [demonstrating] -and it goes forward, like on one of the pinball machines. He just said -something like that. He didn't really go into detail or anything. We -didn't ask him. And by this time Carlos came back from the other guy, -and came back, and he was listening, and, well, that is about all. - -Oh, there was one important thing. Oswald said something like that he -had a military manual from when he was in the Marines, and he said he -would give it to me, and I said, "That is all right. You don't have -to. You can give it to Carlos." He said, "Well, OK, he will give it to -Carlos next time he comes." - -And after that--well, everybody left. That is as far as I can make out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember---- - -Mr. GERACI. And he said he was going to come back later and give Carlos -this military manual from when he was in the Marines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And was he going to give this to Carlos for Carlos' -benefit, or was he---- - -Mr. GERACI. For Carlos' benefit, I guess, Carlos' or the Cuban exiles'. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about training guerrillas -to oppose Castro? - -Mr. GERACI. No. He didn't say anything about being an expert rifle -shooter, never said anything about going to Russia or joining or -training or anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there a conversation concerning the training of -anti-Castro troops or guerrillas to oppose Castro? - -Mr. GERACI. No; that must have been later, maybe when he came back some -other time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now were you present at all times while Oswald was there? - -Mr. GERACI. We got there before he did and we left at the same time he -did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, there wouldn't have been any -opportunity for Oswald and Carlos to talk among themselves where you -wouldn't have heard what they said? - -Mr. GERACI. That is right; because we were there all the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no recollection that Oswald told Carlos that -he wanted to help train anti-Castro guerrillas to fight against Castro? - -Mr. GERACI. None at all; none that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Now what was Oswald going to bring this marine -book back for? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, I guess to give to Carlos to help him out or -something. First he was going to give it to me and Vance. I guess he -wanted us to blow up the bridge or something. I don't know. We said no; -and so he said, "OK, I will give it to Carlos," you know, because after -all Carlos--I guess he could use it better than we could, you know, -blow up bridges in Cuba or something, and I guess he was just going to -give it to him so he could learn some stuff from it. I wouldn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you left the store did you try to follow Oswald -at all? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, we had some thought about it. When he left, he was -going to go down--he crossed Canal Street and he was--he kept on going -that way, I think on St. Charles or Claiborne--way down there near the -end--which one is closer to the river? St. Charles? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with New Orleans, so I get them mixed -up. - -Mr. GERACI. It must have been St. Charles he went down, and Vance said, -"Hey, let's follow him, see where he lives." He told us where he lived, -but the way he told us the address---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know what it was? - -Mr. GERACI. When the FBI man came by my house that day, he asked me, -and I could just barely remember it. I remember it was to the left of -Canal Street. It was Magazine Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Magazine Street? What number? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, I remembered the number a little. I couldn't remember -it altogether, but I remember---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he had told you the number? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes; and I could--I had a few--I mean I had a little -recollection about what it was, like it was a big number sort of like -and had two zeros in it or something. I don't even remember. It seemed -that his number did have that. We decided--we thought maybe we can -follow him for fun, but we decided no, we had better not, you know, -because it was not good or anything, so we just went up Canal Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald said anything about having -been in Florida? - -Mr. GERACI. In Florida? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GERACI. I am not too sure about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember one way or the other whether---- - -Mr. GERACI. The only thing I remember about Florida is when he asked -was headquarters down there. He could have, but I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever see Oswald after that? - -Mr. GERACI. No; that was the last time; first and last. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Carlos? Did you see him after that? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. That time when we found out that it was Oswald -who killed him, well, then I went there, you know, to get things -straightened out and talk with Carlos a little about him, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went back and talked with Carlos, about this meeting -with Oswald, after the assassination? Is that right? - -Mr. GERACI. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you saw Carlos between the time -that you met Oswald and the assassination? - -Mr. GERACI. Carlos? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GERACI. Not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you met -Oswald? Was it July or August? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, last time the FBI man came, I estimated around late -July. I couldn't remember now, so I will just stick with late July. -That seems to stick pretty good. Vance said the same thing himself when -the FBI man questioned him, so I am pretty sure it was between late -July--middle July to late July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about Oswald when you met him? - -Mr. GERACI. When I met him? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. What did you think of him? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, when he went in there, I noticed he was a little -nervous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did he show his nervousness? Do you remember? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, the way he talked, you know. Well, you know, the way -he talked I guess, kind of, you know, searching around for words and -all that, and I remember he leaned on the table, and I remember reading -once that, you know, if you exert some physical exertion, it kind of -helps you tend to calm down or something like that. Anyway, I could -tell by the way he was leaning on the table that maybe he was nervous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this nervousness, did you form any other -opinion about it? - -Mr. GERACI. Not particularly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be an intelligent person? - -Mr. GERACI. Intelligent person? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GERACI. Sort of. He didn't appear stupid or anything like that. He -seemed OK, you know. He didn't seem like a Communist. Seemed like he -just wanted to, you know, help out too, sort of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald was arrested by -the New Orleans Police Department for distributing Fair Play for Cuba -Committee leaflets? - -Mr. GERACI. I didn't know that until after he killed Kennedy and it was -in the papers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear it? - -Mr. GERACI. On the radio? - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the radio or television. - -Mr. GERACI. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you have now told us everything that you can -remember about this meeting you had with Oswald and Carlos? Is there -anything else that you can think of? - -Mr. GERACI. No. There might be one thing. Carlos, when he talked to me -and Vance and my friend, Bill Dwyer, the first time, you know, he made -speeches and all that. When he met him--I don't know--seemed like maybe -he didn't want him or something. I am not too sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Carlos didn't seem to open up to Oswald? - -Mr. GERACI. That is right. He opened up enough, you know, but he didn't -give him any speeches or anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything else that occurred, we would -like to have you tell us. - -Mr. GERACI. OK. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't, I don't have any other questions. - -Mr. GERACI. He did seem like--I guess he did seem like the type who was -a little antisocial. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be too friendly? - -Mr. GERACI. No. He seemed friendly. I mean, he seemed friendly, you -know, but he--maybe like he didn't have enough experience with people, -sort of. He seemed friendly though. That is one thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions. - -Mrs. GERACI. Do you have a record of me reporting Carlos to the FBI? Do -you have that in the record anywhere where I found out--he told me he -was going to collect money for Cuba, but I didn't know he was giving -out these little tickets as he called them, and then when I found out -he had collected $10 and brought it down and I saw the receipts and he -had more tickets, we forbade him to go down there, and Carlos called -the house to try to get him a--what is it--a license or permit to go -from house to house and collect money. - -Mr. GERACI. He never called me. - -Mrs. GERACI. He did call me. - -Mr. GERACI. He called you? Carlos? - -Mrs. GERACI. I spoke with him on the phone. - -Mr. GERACI. That is because I told him--when I collected, a man told me -to do something like that, that I needed a license, so I went and told -Carlos, "You have to get a license." He said, "Don't collect any more -until I get one." Then he went to city hall and got some stuff he had -to fill out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This wasn't Oswald who told you you couldn't collect? - -Mr. GERACI. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't have anything to do with this? - -Mr. GERACI. No; this was before I knew Oswald. This is a man works some -place--who works in a cleaner's, I remember. I went there and he said -I had to get a license to do that, so I called Carlos on the phone and -told him. - -Mrs. GERACI. Then when Carlos called the house, I realized he was still -involved in this. - -Mr. GERACI. I told you I was. - -Mrs. GERACI. I put my foot down and told him he couldn't do it any -more, and I called the FBI. - -Mr. GERACI. And the Better Business Bureau. - -Mrs. GERACI. They told me to call the Better Business Bureau, but the -man at the FBI told me he couldn't give out any information as to -whether this was a Communist organization or not, and the headquarters -were in Miami, and the best thing to do would be not to let him get -involved in it any more. Then I called the Better Business Bureau, and -they were supposed to check with Miami, but I never did get a report -back from him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this before or after you met Oswald? - -Mr. GERACI. This was before. - -Mrs. GERACI. But he has the receipt at home with the date on it. When -he gave Carlos money, Carlos gave him a receipt. - -Mr. GERACI. I remember Carlos making out a check to give the money to -Miami too. When I gave him the money, he put the money in his bank and -made out a check to the headquarters. - -Mrs. GERACI. We met Carlos just now in the hall, and he told me the -best thing Philip could do would be listen to his parents and be a -good student. Right now that would be the way he could help combat -communism. And I told him I thought he was too young to get involved -in things like this, selling tickets for Cuba and all this stuff. Last -year he was only 15 and too young to be involved in all that mess. The -man at the FBI told me that an organization could be all right today -and next week it would be Communist-controlled and how was I to know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who you talked to at the FBI? - -Mrs. GERACI. Gee, I may have his name at home with these slips of paper -that I took from him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is not really important. I just wondered if you -remembered. - -Mrs. GERACI. Well, I wanted his name cleared for getting mixed up with -Carlos, because I didn't know from beans about Carlos. He could be a -Communist. I don't know who is and who isn't. When I found out he met -Oswald, I nearly died. The week this happened he was camping with the -Boy Scouts and gone Friday, Saturday, and Sunday when the stuff was on -TV. - -Mr. GERACI. I was in school when he got shot. - -Mrs. GERACI. But you were in camp, but you didn't see a lot of the -funeral and all that stuff showing Oswald's picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become aware that Oswald was the fellow -you met? Did Vance talk to you about it? Do you remember? - -Mr. GERACI. The first time was when the FBI agent came to my house -and asked did I see an ex-marine and showed a picture and all that. I -didn't even know it before that. It was just then that I realized. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI man tell you how he---- - -Mr. GERACI. Got my name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted him, why did he come to your house? Did he -tell you? - -Mr. GERACI. Well, he said he couldn't tell me that. I asked him, and he -said, well, he couldn't tell me. Of course, I guess it might have been -because we--my mother called, you know, about this Cuban business--they -got my name on their list or something, I guess, and when they found -out that he tried to join that group, that must have been where it came -from. That is what I think. - -Mrs. GERACI. They probably had a list of people who were collecting -money for the organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. OK, I don't have any more questions. I do want to thank -you very much for coming in and being as cooperative as you have, and, -on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much. - -Mr. GERACI. OK. - -Mrs. GERACI. You are welcome, so long as we don't have any publicity. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you never can guarantee. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF VANCE BLALOCK - -The testimony of Vance Blalock, accompanied by his parents, was taken -on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti -Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel -of the President's Commission. - - -Vance Blalock, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand, Vance, -that Mr. Lee Rankin, who is general counsel of the Commission, wrote -you a letter last week---- - -Mr. BLALOCK. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And told you that I would be in touch with you concerning -the taking of your testimony. I understand that Mr. Rankin enclosed -with that letter a copy of the Executive order and of the resolution of -Congress to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules -of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of the -testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that letter and those documents? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire very briefly of you concerning an -event which occurred some time in the summer of 1963 here in New -Orleans. We understand that you were present at a meeting, a chance -meeting, between Lee Harvey Oswald and Carlos Bringuier. Before we get -into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for -the record. - -Mr. BLALOCK. Vance Douglas Blalock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that your mother and father are here -in the room with us. How old are you, Vance? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I am 16. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Lake Charles, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live now? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Metairie, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Less than a year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. BLALOCK. East Jefferson High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What grade are you in at East Jefferson High School? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Tenth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I have met him once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did it happen that you met him? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I went downtown with my friend, Philip Geraci. We went to -a store to return funds that Philip had collected for the organization -this man had had, and while I was there I met Carlos. That is how I met -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with these funds that were -collected by your friend Geraci? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was entirely his operation? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where you went that day with Philip? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; we went to Decatur Street, I believe it is. I am -not sure. The store is the Casa Roca. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What organization was it that Bringuier was running? Do -you know? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I couldn't say the Spanish name. The American name of it -is the Cuban Student Revolutionary Organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Last part of the summer. I couldn't---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Late July or early August would it be, or some time in -August of 1963? - -Mr. BLALOCK. August would be the closest I could get. I don't remember -the exact date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me the conversation that you and Philip had with -Bringuier when you went into the store. - -Mr. BLALOCK. Oh, we entered the store and Philip introduced me to -Carlos, and I told him--I saw the funds Philip had collected for -him, and I told him I was curious about what it was for, and then he -explained for me how the organization worked and told me he received -the funds from people in New Orleans and sent it to Florida, and that -was his total business, and he explained that Communism was where the -kids are supposed to tell everything on their parents, to obey the -State and not their parents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Present at this conversation were just you and Philip and -Carlos? Is that right? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No; there was another man--must have worked at the store. -He was present. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know what his name was? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now while you were there in the store, did you notice -anybody else present? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Well, a man from a moving company or some trucking company -came in. He had a radio that needed to be fixed, a broken radio, and -Lee Harvey Oswald came in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, the things -that happened as far as Oswald was concerned. - -Mr. BLALOCK. He walked up to us and leaned against the desk and -listened to the conversation. Then he started asking questions about -the organization, and we were talking about guerrilla warfare, just in -case the country got in war how young students could help, something in -that nature, and then he started--then Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, asked -Carlos Bringuier all about the organization and what part it played in -the main movement in Florida. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they say anything else? Was there more to the -conversation? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Let's see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man who walked up introduce himself by name? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I believe so, but I don't remember what name he gave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now convinced that he was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir. I know his face. I recognized his face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember that he mentioned the name Lee -Harvey Oswald at that time? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about having been a Marine? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; he did, and he explained that he took training -in guerrilla warfare, and he told us how to blow up bridges, derail -trains, make zip guns, make homemade gunpowder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you about this in detail? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He told us how to blow up the Huey P. Long Bridge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us just what he told you about that. I know you -can't remember the exact words, but you can remember the substance of -the conversation. We want you to tell us about it. - -Mr. BLALOCK. He told us to put powder charges at each end of the bridge -from the foundation to where the foundation meets the suspension part, -and to blow that part up and the center part of the bridge would -collapse. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk about any other aspect of guerrilla warfare -that you can remember? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He said that if you don't have the materials you need -always available, you had to do without stuff. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give any specific example of that? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Gunpowder, high explosives. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how to do without gunpowder in these -activities? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He told us how to derail a train without gunpowder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He said put a chain around the railroad track and lock it -to the track with a lock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then when the train hit the chain it would derail the -train? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that he knew how to make gunpowder? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; he told us the formula, and I--saltpeter and -nitrate--some formula--I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about guns? - -Mr. BLALOCK. About zip guns, how to make them out of tubing and a -plunger. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say something to the effect that he knew all about -guns? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No; he told us he had a manual that explained all about -guns, a Marine manual, and that he had training in guns, trained with -guns. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that he said? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Not right offhand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to Bringuier about helping Bringuier in -this organization, or just what was the general context of this -conversation? Was this just a general discussion of guerrilla warfare, -or did it relate to the activities of Bringuier's anti-Castro -organization? What can you remember? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He just asked him about the anti-Castro organization -and asked him to explain it to him, and he said he was interested -in finding out how it operated. He didn't say he wanted to join it: -He just said he was interested in it. Oh, and Bringuier gave him -literature, a Cuban newspaper and leaflets or booklets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of politics? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any mention of President Kennedy? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. I couldn't say for sure there was no mention of -President Kennedy. I don't think there was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think of Oswald? - -Mr. BLALOCK. He seemed like a very intelligent man to me, well spoken, -looked well dressed, well groomed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think anything else about him, or is that about -it? - -Mr. BLALOCK. That is the impression that I got right at the moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about Florida? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Just mentioned the Cuban anti-Castro organization there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I don't remember exactly, but I think he said he had been -there and he had looked into it. I couldn't say for sure on that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the organization? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. No, I don't recall any name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed about this subject by -an FBI agent? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; I do, during the Christmas holidays. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I don't. All I know is a Lieutenant or something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember his name if I mentioned -it to you? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I might, or my mother might. She was present. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother was present when you were interviewed by the -FBI? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that the -report that I have of the interview that you had with the FBI agent -indicates that the man's name was Kevin J. Herrigan? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Herrigan? No. No; I don't remember that name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agent about Oswald's -remark concerning having been to Florida? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I don't remember what I told the FBI agent. I -don't remember anything about Oswald saying--only that I think he said -he had been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the report that I have here says that you seemed -to remember Oswald mentioning something about having recently visited -something called the Casa Nostra, C-a-s-a N-o-s-t-r-a. Do you remember -saying anything about that to the FBI man? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; I remember mentioning the organization, but I -couldn't remember the name. That organization was mentioned in the -conversation with Carlos Bringuier and Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that it was Oswald who mentioned it? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I don't remember which one mentioned it first. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it was mentioned as being a Cuban organization in -Florida? Is that your recollection? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; I think that is the name they mentioned. It -could be something similar. I know I got this Mafia name mixed up with -a Cuban organization name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you know that that name that I just mentioned, Casa -Nostra, is very similar to the Cosa Nostra. Do you think you may have -been confused at the time you talked with him? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Well, I meant the Cuban organization. I may have said the -Mafia, the Cosa Nostra. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You may have used that name? - -Mr. BLALOCK. But I meant the Cuban---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You meant some Anti-Castro Cuban organization? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the best you can recall, Oswald didn't say that he had -recently visited someone in the Cosa Nostra? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall sort of vaguely that Oswald did say -that he had been in Florida and he had visited an Anti-Castro Cuban -organization there? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about this incident in the -store that day when Oswald came in? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Oh, he said he lived on Magazine Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give his exact address to you? Do you remember? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I don't believe he gave his exact address, but I couldn't -say for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about whether he was working or not, -whether he had a job? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I don't remember if he said anything about his job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his background? Did he say -he was from New Orleans or anything about that? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I don't remember anything about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that happened? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Philip Geraci and I started following him home after we -both left the store. Oswald, Philip and I both left the store about -the same time. We started to follow Oswald to his house just out of -curiosity, and I recollect that Oswald said he would give us his Marine -manual if we ever came back, if we contacted him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That he would give you the Marine manual if you saw each -other at the store again? - -Mr. BLALOCK. At the store or just saw each other, if we would contact -him and get it, we could have it. If he saw us again, he would give it -to us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue to follow him home? Did you -just walk out and walk down the street with him, or did you sort of -shadow him or---- - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. We walked out the door. We both started different -directions, and Philip and I said, "Why don't we follow him and get the -Marine manual now, nothing else to do." We started to go to the corner, -and we didn't see him, so we went on our way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the Marine manual? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Bringuier again after that? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Carlos again until just today---- - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw him come out of this room and leave the -building? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you and Philip good friends? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I wouldn't say real close friends, but we are friends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about this incident or talk about Oswald at -all after this time but prior to the assassination? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir; I don't believe we did. We talked about the Cuban -Student Organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that Oswald was subsequently -arrested here in New Orleans in connection with his activity on behalf -of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No; I didn't know about that until after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear Oswald debate Carlos on the radio -program---- - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or you didn't see Oswald on television? - -Mr. BLALOCK. No, sir. I might have. I just don't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Philip say anything about having seen these things? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Not to me he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you never had any real discussions, as far as you -remember, with Philip about Oswald until the time of the assassination? -Is that correct? - -Mr. BLALOCK. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You must have talked to Philip about Oswald after the -assassination. - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recall to each other and discuss with each other -the meeting that you had with Oswald in the store on Decatur Street at -that time? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I think I was the one that recognized him. I called it to -Philip's attention, and the next day at school he said, "Yes, that is -the man we met at the store." I recognized Oswald late one night when -I was just about going to bed. I told my Daddy, "I went uptown and met -that man up there." - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was shortly after the assassination? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes; during the time they didn't have any shows but the -funeral and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] Let me show you a -picture that has been marked as Exhibit 1 to the affidavit of Jesse -J. Garner taken at New Orleans, April 6, 1964, and I ask you if you -recognize the individual portrayed in that picture. - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; I recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recognize him as the man you met in the store -that day? - -Mr. BLALOCK. Yes, sir; Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else now about your contact -with Oswald, or can you think of anything else that you know about him -that I haven't asked you about and you think the Commission should know -about? - -Mr. BLALOCK. I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions. If you can't think -of anything else, we will terminate the deposition. On behalf of the -Commission, I want to thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF VINCENT T. LEE - -The testimony of Vincent T. Lee was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 17, -1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Messrs. -J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Vincent T. Lee was accompanied -by his attorney, Stanley Faulkner. - - -Vincent T. Lee, having duly affirmed, was examined and testified as -follows: - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lee, this deposition is being taken by the Commission -under the authority of Executive Order No. 11130 and joint resolution -of the Congress No. 137. My name is J. Lee Rankin. I am general counsel -for the Commission. Mr. Liebeler is associated with me in this work. -You have a right to have a copy of your testimony if you wish to pay -for it and you may ask the reporters to make such arrangements. - -During the examination you have a right to have counsel, which you have -here, and counsel may object to any of the questions. At the close of -the examination by myself, if counsel wishes to ask you questions to -clarify or make clear any particular part of your testimony or correct -it, if you wish to call anything to his attention, why, he is free to -do that. - -Where do you live, Mr. Lee? - -Mr. LEE. 37-1/2 St. Mark's Place, New York City. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to 3 -days' notice, and I assume since you are here you are willing to waive -that and go ahead with the deposition. - -Mr. LEE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an official connection with the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee? - -Mr. LEE. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee is no longer a functioning -organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you at one time have such a connection? - -Mr. LEE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. During what period? - -Mr. LEE. From the year of 1963--yes, last year. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was it closed up? - -Mr. LEE. Officially the office went out of existence December 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. In 1963? - -Mr. LEE. December 1963. Eviction notice was served and the office was -closed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have some communications with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LEE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you made a search of your files for all communications -that you had with him? - -Mr. LEE. Upon being communicated with by the Federal agents, from the -Federal Bureau of Investigation, at their behest I made an exhausting -search throughout the whole Fair Play offices for any and all -communications which were there, and finding certain communications -I turned them over to the Federal agents, particularly Federal Agent -Kennedy, in early December 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you make that search? - -Mr. LEE. Within a day or two after being contacted by the Federal -agents. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the approximate date of that contact? - -Mr. LEE. I believe it was the first week of December. - -Mr. RANKIN. 1963? - -Mr. LEE. 1963, yes. I am not positive. I am pretty sure it was -somewhere around that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that search made by you personally? - -Mr. LEE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it a thorough and complete search? - -Mr. LEE. Well, I went through every scrap of paper down to the last -little scrap behind the desk and under radiators and in cabinets and in -drawers and under desk blotters and every possible conceivable place -any piece of paper might have been stored or fallen to and laid down or -anything else. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you are satisfied---- - -Mr. LEE. As far as I know I went through every--to the best of my -knowledge I went through everything I could find and everything that I -found I turned over to the agents afterwards, after having copies made. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you or anybody on behalf of your committee have any -oral communications with Lee Harvey Oswald that you know of? - -Mr. LEE. To my knowledge there was never any such communication. I -can't ever remember ever having such communication myself. I don't know -that anybody else did. Nobody that I have known has ever mentioned such -a thing to me. - -(Document marked Lee Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is a letter -that you or your committee received from Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LEE. This looks very much like such a letter, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive it near the date that it bears? - -Mr. LEE. There is not a date--it is not dated. This particular letter -is not dated. Evidently here on the bottom is a notation which is made. -This letter requests that the organization send some literature which -the organization had published and there is a notation on the bottom -which says the material was sent. It says "Sent 4/19/63," which I -assume was quite some time ago. I can remember when people wrote in, we -had many, many communications from many parts of the country, and when -they asked for something we would send it to them and we would mark the -thing "Sent so and so," so we would know the communication had been -answered and what had been done about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that notation "Sent 4/19/63" and also -the circling of the "50" was done by you? - -Mr. LEE. This is doubtful because at that time, let's see, at that -time I was not in the New York office. I was out on a national tour, -I believe I was on the west coast at that time. We have had other -people coming in to volunteer to, you know, wrap packages and address -envelopes and things like that, come in for an hour or two, and go on -about their business, whatever it is, and evidently somebody else did -this because at that time I was on the west coast. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you be able to tell whether or not the letter, -Exhibit 1, was dated or sent to you, rather than dated, somewhere -around the time that this "Sent" recording was made? - -Mr. LEE. I have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. I believe -there might have been an envelope which--some of the letters had -envelopes. I don't know whether this particular one did or not. I think -this is one of the first communications we would have, and it goes -back to the end of April 1963, and to the best of my knowledge all my -experience has been that these things, just so much of this was done; -it was an automatic thing that was sent or replied, a certain date, -which meant within that period of time, a week or so, sometimes it was -slow, sometimes it was done the same day, sometimes it was done, you -know, several days later, but within a week, around that area I would -imagine is when that thing was replied. - -(Lee Exhibits Nos. 2 to 5 marked.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lee, in accordance with the practice on these exhibits, -when these exhibits are examined, the counsel doing the examining -initials them, and also the witness. Would you be kind enough to do it -under my initials. - -Mr. LEE. Well, I would like to know what my--I would like to understand -what my signature would imply. - -Mr. RANKIN. It only implies that this exhibit was presented to you at -the time, so there won't be any question about it. - -Mr. LEE. Yes. Where should I initial it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Just under mine, so it doesn't show anything except that -fact. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Lee, of this -Exhibit 1 coming to your own attention at any time, other than when you -went to search the files and find out what you had? - -Mr. LEE. No; I don't have. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 2 and ask you to examine that and see if -you recall if your committee or you received it on or about or near the -date that it bears. - -Mr. LEE. This looks precisely like such a communication received. - -Mr. RANKIN. You will notice that it bears the date May 26 at the top. - -Mr. LEE. Yes; and I have every reason to believe that it would be an -accurate---- - -Mr. RANKIN. And you are quite sure that you received Exhibit 1 before -you received Exhibit 2? - -Mr. LEE. Well, like I say, you see, this one here was, I believe--I -believe this probably arrived--I have every reason to believe that this -arrived particularly during the weeks that I was away from the office, -before this one. - -Mr. RANKIN. This one---- - -Mr. LEE. And in piecing the thing together to the best of my own -knowledge over a period of time like this and by using this to jog my -recollection, this one here would have come to my attention after this -one. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say this one here---- - -Mr. LEE. This one dated--Exhibit No. 2, dated May 26, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Came to you after Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. LEE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about the information that was in -Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. LEE. Well, I cannot be sure what I did, because I have no--I never -bothered to keep records on these details. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. - -Mr. LEE. But I had a general policy which I pursued, when somebody -addressed a communication which I received, I would write to them, -trying to present them with the information they requested or the -material which they requested in whatever way I thought best at the -time for the particular case, whatever it was. Like I said, not having -saved--not having made any copies of any of these things, I can't be -sure of what I did. I really don't know what I would have said, but I -always made it a policy to try and reply to these communications. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lee, I hand you Exhibit No. 3, which purports to be -a photocopy of a purported reply that you have made to Lee Harvey -Oswald's letter of May 26, Exhibit No. 3, purporting to be a letter of -May 29. Do you recall having sent that? - -Mr. LEE. Yes. It's dated May 29. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEE. This is a copy--this must be a copy of a letter--this looks -like my signature here, and I don't actually recall this--did I miss -something?--Oh, I see. I don't actually recall writing the letter, -but it looks like something which I might have written at the time in -response to the previous inquiry. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEE. But I can't say that I remember sitting down and writing it. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will try to secure the original and submit it to you for -your approval in substitution for this copy. - -Mr. LEE. Well, I am not actually questioning it. I am saying I can't -really remember. Actually, I have thought about this. I haven't a real -recollection of sitting down and writing, you know, letters to that -particular person. Like I said, I was answering as many communications -myself as possible to many, many inquiries which came into the office, -so it is hard for me to pick out such and such a person a year later, -even if something had happened in between to make the name prominent, -to go back then. The name wouldn't mean too much to me at that time -that I had written. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when you referred to his getting a post office box as a -must, what did you mean by that? - -Mr. LEE. Well, this is a recommendation which was made, an -organizational recommendation which had been made a long time before -I myself had gone into a position with the organization. Because -of the nature of the organization, people would come and go. They -would support it and then drop out, and sometimes they would move, -and if somebody--naturally most of the thing was just a small, -little local activity. People didn't maintain business offices for -such an organization, and if a person would move or drop out of the -organization and the activities, the communications between the -national office and the local area would get all tangled up because -we didn't know where the mail would be returned, where we would -write, whereas if there was a post office box, if one person in the -organization dropped out who was receiving mail, then the mail would -still be delivered to a post office box, where the other officials of -the chapter, if it still existed, would still have access to the mail -and be able to reply to communications from the national organization -concerning the activities of the organization. The purpose of the post -office box was purely to facilitate communications between areas and -maintain them on a permanent basis. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 3-A and see if you recall seeing the -original of which that appears to be a photocopy. It is dated May 22, -1963. - -Mr. LEE. It looks very much like a formal notice that I may have sent. -I mean, I was accustomed to sending many such communications, and that -looks very much like something I would have sent. Did I sign the other -one? - -Mr. RANKIN. No. I hand you Exhibit No. 4, which I don't find to be -dated, either, but it does show an address in New Orleans which helps -to make it possible for us to fix the general period. Do you recall -having seen that before? - -Mr. LEE. Yes. This was another one of the communications which were -sent to me. Obviously, not through recollection of having seen the -letters but piecing these things together, I conclude that this was -one of the letters which were sent after I had entered into direct -communications with this person, because he no longer addresses -it "Dear Sirs." Evidently he has received communications from us, -so he addresses us by name. I would say that evidently that was a -communication sent to me which I received. - -Mr. RANKIN. You will note it has four pages as a part of the letter and -has a membership blank for---- - -Mr. LEE. Yes. My recollection on this is that in previous letters--for -a moment I would like to go over this and make sure I don't get the -letters confused one with the other. This--yes, yes. This evidently -is a letter which was sent in reply, after I had--he had in one letter -asked for information about the possibilities of doing--setting up a -chapter, for which I had sent him the rules and regulations regarding -the functioning of our organization and copies of our constitution and -bylaws and things like that. This evidently is a letter which he wrote -in which he replies that he had gone ahead and acted on his own without -any authorization from the organization, and if I recall correctly this -was also a letter which was received by myself in my capacity, not -having any great happiness at somebody going off on their own and doing -something against the rules of the organization, under the name of the -organization, which is obviously what was done, because this set up -himself--this thing reads, "New Orleans Chapter, Member Branch." There -was no such thing, because he had just received--just previous to this -he had received the regulations, and my letter would give an indication -of what would be necessary to set up a chapter, which would certainly -consist of more than one person operating on his own, and this, if I -recall correctly, was such a letter which I received. - -Naturally, anybody in an organization position such as I was in any -other organization, you would always be interested in expanding and -getting your ideas across and reaching more people, and when somebody -writes to you and says they would like to help you, your immediate -response is, "Well, wonderful. Here is a new contact in a new part -of the hinterlands and, gee, I hope this works out." And then, when -somebody goes off like this, violating all the rules that you send -him, it comes as quite a disappointment, because you have had hopes. -Obviously this man was not operating in an official capacity for the -organization. As he states, he went off with his own innovations and -everything else. - -Mr. RANKIN. You will note that he refers in the letter to this throw -sheet. - -Mr. LEE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the fact that he has established a charter in violation -of your instructions. - -Mr. LEE. Yes. I certainly do. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he also refers to his membership blank. - -Mr. LEE. Yes, which is another complete violation. It has no---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Apparently both of those were enclosed with a letter, were -they? - -Mr. LEE. Evidently, yes. To the best of my recollection, they would be. -As I say, all of these details--I can't be positive of every little -thing, because it's been such a time and so much has transpired in -between. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit No. 5 is apparently a letter of August 1 from Lee -Harvey Oswald. Do you recall that? - -Mr. LEE. There was a couple of letters here. I don't know whether it -was these two, Exhibits 4 and 5, but it's hard for me to determine, -they came so close together. They came, you know, almost on top of -each other, to the best of my recollection, that I don't know which -one--only by studying the text can you halfway determine which came -first. I remember vaguely receiving these communications in this order. - -You see here, another case where I mentioned, and I would recommend -not trying to get an office to start off with, particularly the--what -was being espoused by our organization wouldn't be the most popular -thing in the area of New Orleans, Louisiana, and I would automatically, -myself, personally, from my own experience, would say to anybody, "You -know, you better be way ahead before you start something like that," -and certainly he has gone ahead against all of that recommendation from -everybody else. But to the best of my recollection, these letters were -very close together, about the same time, the same issue. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was one of the letters, Exhibit No. 5, that you -supplied the FBI at the time? - -Mr. LEE. Yes. - -(Document marked Lee Exhibit No. 6.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Your Exhibit No. 6, which apparently is composed of a -letter and an affidavit in regard to a charge against Lee Harvey -Oswald, and a clipping in regard to the disposition of that charge, do -you recall that correspondence and the attachments? - -Mr. LEE. Yes, I have a recollection of this. I don't think the -clipping--as a matter of fact, I seem to remember that this clipping -was not attached to a piece of paper, though. I think this may have -been attached since I submitted it. That is the only difference I can -see. - -Mr. RANKIN. Apparently since you furnished the letter, Exhibit 6, and -the copy of the charge against Lee Harvey Oswald and the clipping, the -clipping has been stapled to a piece of paper? - -Mr. LEE. Yes. The reason I say that is simply because I never -paper-clip things; I always rubber cement them. - -(Document marked Lee Exhibit No. 7.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 7, which consists of two pages of a -letter dated August 17, and an envelope attached by a clip, and ask -you if that exhibit in that form was one you received from Lee Harvey -Oswald and furnished to the Bureau as you described? - -Mr. LEE. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Throughout this period of time you had no oral or personal -telephone conversations with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you? - -Mr. LEE. To the best of my knowledge, to the very best of my knowledge, -I can't ever remember speaking to this person. The only communications -I can recall or having heard of him was through these series of -letters, and I have subsequently seen photographs, and as a matter of -fact I was another one of the millions of TV witnesses, and I don't -recall ever having seen the man or having heard his voice. The only -thing I ever had at all, that I can ever remember, are purely these -communications. He is a complete stranger to me outside of this, and -even within the framework of this he wasn't very much more than a -stranger. - -(Documents marked Lee Exhibits Nos. 8A through 8C.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibits 8A, B and C, respectively, which appear -to be change of address cards. - -Mr. LEE. Yes, these are post office cards. I have a recollection of -receiving these. Of course we always got scads of these too, but this -was a very normal thing. Usually people send these in with changes of -address, people who subscribe to our publications and things. Do you -want me to initial those? - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you initial those? - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Lee Exhibit No. 9.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if you recall having seen -that before? - -Mr. LEE. It seems like there should be a letter to go with it. I -believe that each of the things that I turned in, where it was -available, there was an envelope with the letter. I don't recall that I -turned in any isolated envelope that wasn't with a letter. - -Mr. FAULKNER. This has a postmark, New Orleans, 4 Aug. 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. I might ask you, Mr. Lee, if that envelope, Exhibit 9, -might be connected with the Exhibit 5. - -Mr. LEE. Well, now, it's possible. The letter is dated August 1, and -the thing is postmarked PM, August 4. I assume--it looks very much like -it would fit in there, the envelope and paper match up, and there is no -difference in the ink, the pen used, from what I can see. I do remember -specifically that when I turned over the material to the Federal agents -I did--I don't recall at any time having a loose envelope, it was with -one of the letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is apparently closer to any of the letters timewise. - -Mr. LEE. It is very likely that it goes with this letter, and from my -own experience there is a date discrepancy of a couple of days there, -but I have carried a letter around in my pocket for a couple of days, -too, and I can very well assume that somebody else would do the same. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the back of Exhibit 7 there is a penciled number. Does -that have anything to do with your organization? - -Mr. LEE. I haven't the faintest idea what this thing is, sir. There is -one on here too. I have never seen this before. It is certainly not my -hand on these things, and I very much--in fact I am pretty positive -that this material has been added to these letters since I turned these -things into the Federal agents. It is probably a filing code number or -something or other used by the Federal agents. - -Mr. RANKIN. The FBI, yes. - -Mr. LEE. It is not in my hand, and it certainly doesn't look like--in -fact I remember when I made copies of these things I was looking at -both sides of the papers to make sure that I had a complete copy when I -made the copy of these letters for my own personal file on the issue, -and these things were not on. I am sure that these things were not on -them when I turned them in. - -Mr. RANKIN. By "these things" you mean those pencil marks on the back? - -Mr. LEE. The penciled digits on the back of the letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Such as on Exhibit 7 that I just referred you to, the mark -"62-109060-1845"? - -Mr. LEE. Yes, those things must have been added after I turned them in. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lee, I asked you about the circling of the figure 50 -and the notation "Sent 4/19/63" on Exhibit 1. As I recall, you said you -were out traveling over the country at that time, and you knew you were -not in the office so as to send that literature. Do you have any idea -what 50 copies were sent? - -Mr. LEE. Well, this is back in April of 1963, and he asks, I quote, -"I now ask for 40 or 50," and the circle is around 50, and this, the -normal procedure had always been to note it. When the circle was made -around the 50, I just assume, and I very much believe, that it was -50 items that were sent. Now, we have printed various leaflets, and -this is what was sent, these leaflets, such as, you know, calling for -the end of hostile relations, and so forth, between the Government -of the United States and the Government of Cuba, which we used for -distribution at various public affairs and public places. - -Mr. RANKIN. We had information from the Bureau that you had said that -notation was by you and that you sent the material. Is that incorrect? - -Mr. LEE. Well, I can't see how it could possibly be when I wasn't in -the area at the time. The 19th of April I was somewhere on the west -coast, I was somewhere between Los Angeles and Seattle, Washington. -I arrived on the west coast, I believe, on April the 1st or 2d of -1963, and I didn't return until the first week of May of 1963, and the -last point of departure to New York was from, I believe, the City of -Chicago. I was out on the west coast and the west and midwest during -that period of time, and I wasn't there. Now, I assume that at some -point along the line in my communications I had sent this gentleman -some material, which we always had in stock. This was part of our -activity, to print up leaflets and pamphlets and translations of -various things and provide them to the general public. - -But this particular item, assuming that all these dates are correct, -I can't possibly have sent it. But the point is that I would -authorize--to me it was a standard policy that if anybody asked for -anything that we had, we would give it to them, and that is the best I -can say. But as for myself, at that particular date, I was not in the -New York area. I was very far away at that particular time. In fact I -was definitely on the west coast of the United States at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. So if they recorded that you said that, there was some -error? - -Mr. LEE. There was an error somewhere. Maybe they got confused in the -conversation over maybe something else, some other communication that I -mentioned, that I had felt that I had replied to, communications, and -sent him stuff like the constitution and bylaws. Maybe that might have -got confused. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any connection with you or your organization or -anyone from your organization that you know of with the acts of Lee -Harvey Oswald in connection with the assassination of the President? - -Mr. LEE. With myself or organizationally, to the best of my knowledge, -no; nor have I heard or know of any other person related to the -organization in any way. Definitely there would be no connection -between the act--acts of Lee Harvey Oswald. Whether or not he did -anything in relation to the assassination, I don't know. As I -understood, this is what is trying to be determined, and so forth, -with this hearing. But whether he did or did not in relation, we had -no--nothing to do with this. In fact I would feel very free to say -that this particular act by anybody would be the worst possible thing -that we could conceive of. Our idea was certainly not to engage in any -activities of violence or illegal actions of any kind. We try very -much to maintain a character of nonviolent participation in community -affairs. In fact we have organizationally held, in which I directed and -participated, demonstrations in which we made a very firm commitment to -peaceful assembly and demonstration, and even when attacked physically -did not respond to the attack but withheld and conducted ourselves -peacefully and legally. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald a member of your organization? - -Mr. LEE. I have no record of this. You see, we never kept a membership -file. We never at any time maintained a membership file. If somebody -asked to join the organization, we made out a membership card for them -and the card was sent to the person, but there was no duplicate and -there was no special recording of it; it was just a simple formality, -and we just sent them the card. And so there is no way that I can tell -for sure that he was or he wasn't, because we never did maintain a file -in this direction. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything about his being a member, as far as -your recollection? - -Mr. LEE. I am not sure on that score. I mean I don't know. It is -entirely possible. It is entirely possible. But I can't say that I -recall, you know, filling out a card for him. It is entirely possible. -I may very well have. But as far as saying absolutely I remember, -no, I don't, I can't say that, because I really don't remember, but -I will say it is entirely possible. In fact I would assume from the -communications--I would assume from the communications which were -conducted with this gentleman that it is very likely that he asked to -join, and our membership was the type of thing where it was open to -anybody who asked to become a member, was given membership. We had no -restrictions on membership. In fact we had one of the policy statements -of the organization, its constitution and bylaws, was that it was open -to all regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin or -political opinion. It was open to anybody, anybody at all could join, -and from the communications, since I was writing to him in connection -with--he was asking if he could start a chapter, well, I can't -conceive of my writing to a nonmember in the direction of starting a -chapter. It is very--I assume that he must have at some point along -the line asked to join as a member and met the simple requirements of -sending in a membership fee, which was really a subscription to any -of our publications, and I assume that he must have been, otherwise -I can't quite conceive of my having written to him about membership, -starting a chapter, replying to such a question without having--the -letters--evidently there would have been some communication saying, -well, "You can't do it unless you join," and from the letters you -showed me, which I assume are correct, he must have already at some -point in the communications decided to join the organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to the first paragraph, Mr. Lee, of -Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. LEE. Oh, yes; sure, here it is, "I am requesting formal membership -in your organizations." Well, evidently at this point, at the end of -May, 1963, he requested formal--I don't--let's see, is there a note in -here of having sent him--well, anyhow, assuming that accompanying this -letter there was---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Let me call your attention to Exhibit 3, and there is in -the first paragraph there---- - -Mr. LEE. Oh, yes; evidently he did join, yes. I assumed that it was so, -because I can't conceive of having written him about a chapter unless -he had joined. One doesn't organizationally ask people to help the -organization who are not members. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any combination, conspiracy or common action -of any kind that worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his -acts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. LEE. I have no knowledge of any such thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any members of Fair Play for Cuba Committee -in New Orleans that were working with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection -with anything he did there for the committee? - -Mr. LEE. No; I have no recollection of any such thing. In fact all I -can recall is that the man communicated I think to me that somehow in -these letters that he had nobody and that he was completely alone, -and that in fact I think one of the letters mentioned how he was out -somewhere all alone and that he had no--nobody at all, nobody working -with him or through him or for him or around him or anything else. -He gave me the impression that he was completely isolated in his -community, which became obvious to me from his actions which would -certainly isolate him in his community. I could see very well how he -would be. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 7 and the paragraph in -which he says he was working with three people in the demonstration. He -doesn't purport to say they are members. - -Mr. LEE. Demonstration of three. I wonder if he was one of the three, -or who it was. Somewhere in some of these letters, I don't know -where--I could check back--I got the indication that he had no support -and that he was completely isolated. Now, what this business of the -three people is, I have no idea. He doesn't seem to mention anything -more about this, and I don't even know whether he was one of the three -or whether there were three besides him or what. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 5, in which he refers -to the fact that he was attacked during one of the demonstrations, -and then the following page of that Exhibit 5, that robbed him of any -associates. - -Mr. LEE. "... the support I had, leaving me alone." Yes, I guess this -is what I had in mind, "This incident robbed me of what support I had, -leaving me alone." Now, what support he had, I don't know. - -If I recall correctly, at this incident which he mentions here, he had -sent me the things from his court, the arrest things, and the only -people that are mentioned in that are Oswald and the people who he -claims attacked him, and that is the only people, evidently, according -to the court records and the police, you know, who the police brought -charges on. There didn't seem to be anybody involved but this Lee -Harvey Oswald and the Cuban exiles who he became involved in a fracas -with down there. So I don't know how much validity--I really don't know -how much validity there is in these other people existing, whether they -did or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any members of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee in Dallas? - -Mr. LEE. As I said, I never kept a membership file and I don't recall -who is a member and who wouldn't be a member. I know we received many -communications requesting literature of various types and things like -that from all over the country, and I don't know of any state of the -union which has not been sent some material at some time during the -3-1/2-year history of the organization. I would assume that somewhere, -at some time, in Texas some people wrote in and received something, -some communication, but as far as doing anything particularly about -Dallas, no. The only thing I know about Dallas is what I read in the -papers, which doesn't tell me too much. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that same situation about whether there were any -members of the committee in New Orleans would be true, would it? - -Mr. LEE. Well, it is like I say. As for membership, this is an almost -impossible situation in view of the fact that we didn't conduct a -membership file or a duplicate membership card system and we just -had mailing lists. In fact the mailing lists--even the mailing lists -wouldn't tell very much, if anything, and that was just a case, anybody -who thought somebody should receive a communication gave the name of -somebody, in fact for now deceased Governor Lehman was on that list, -Senators and Congressmen were placed on the mailing list, everybody -and his brother who we thought should be--well, we thought some reason -should receive the material which we sent out, we just sent material. -It could be anybody. And like I say, stuff went to all over the -country, just automatically, just did large mailings to every place -we could think of, dream of or hope for in any of our activities of -mailing. - -But as far as particularly--there was never an active organization of -the committee in these areas. We have had in the past--there was in -existence in the committee a series of chapters, committee chapters, -in various parts of the country, but there were never any chapters or -active participation on a local level, to my knowledge, in either Texas -or Louisiana at any time during the entire history of the organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there any information, evidence or knowledge that you -haven't given us that would bear upon this assassination of President -Kennedy, that might help the Commission? - -Mr. LEE. No, sir; I have no information whatsoever. I have more than -personal, more than just curiosity, and I hope very much to know the -truth about this incident and hope very much that the truth is known, -particularly for my own personal reasons, as well as any other reasons, -because having been practically a victim of very serious slander in -this direction, both by individuals and by elements of the press and -various periodicals, I have very serious concern about developing -the truth. I have been threatened. People have tried to break into -my home, somehow connecting myself and my organizational activities, -quite falsely, with the assassination--I would like to see the truth -come up, because I am quite sure that any investigation will show that -this was not true, that I didn't have any part of this. I am as much -interested and probably more interested in my own way in having the -facts presented than many of the average people on the street. I have a -personal involvement in this. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is all. - -Mr. Faulkner, do you have anything? - -Mr. FAULKNER. I was just going to ask Mr. Lee one question with regard -to Exhibit No. 1, where the date in the lower right-hand corner appears -reading, "Sent 4/19/63" in his handwriting. - -Mr. LEE. Well, you see, the thing is, I don't think it is, because I -don't see how I could have written that if I wasn't there. That's the -whole thing. But it could be--like I said, that office was an open -door. Everybody used to come and go, and people would come in and say, -"I've got twenty minutes"--a kid from school, some kid would come in -and say, "I've got 20 minutes between classes. Can I do something to -help you?" And somebody would say, "Yes, wrap that package", and they -would be off 20 minutes later. So it could be anybody in the world. -Or perhaps the only possibility is when I returned, perhaps somebody -mentioned that it was taken care of, and I wrote it after my return. -But certainly not at that time, because I wasn't even present. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it satisfactory, Mr. Lee, if we finally obtain the -originals from the Bureau and send them to you of these Exhibits 3 and -3-A, which purport to be copies or photocopies of your correspondence, -and on your verification substitute those for those copies? - -Mr. FAULKNER. If---- - -Mr. LEE. If you find it's necessary. Actually, as I say, I would assume -these very much--I mean, this looks very much like what I would expect -a duplicate, a duplication of the stationery which I used to look like. -I mean, just, you know, like I say, I assume---- - -Mr. FAULKNER. We would be satisfied. - -Mr. LEE. (Continuing.) I would be satisfied to make this---- - -Mr. FAULKNER. If you are satisfied when you see the original, compare -it with this, and if you are satisfied that they correspond, there is -no reason to call Mr. Lee. - -Mr. LEE. No; I am quite agreeable to verification. - -Mr. RANKIN. Fine. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD SAMUEL JOHNSON - -The testimony of Arnold Samuel Johnson was taken at 9:30 a.m., on -April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., -by Messrs. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel, and Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. Arnold Samuel -Johnson was accompanied by his attorney, John J. Abt. - - -Arnold Samuel Johnson, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you give the reporter your name and address. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Arnold Samuel Johnson. My home address is 56 Seventh -Avenue, New York City. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Johnson, my name is J. Lee Rankin. I am general counsel -for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy. - -We are here to take your testimony with regard to that matter, and we -have certain rules and procedures that the Commission has set up to be -followed in connection with the hearings and testimony that is taken -for the consideration of the Commission. Mr. Liebeler is here as my -assistant, and he is one of the several counsel of the Commission. - -The Commission acts in accordance with an Executive order of President -Johnson, No. 11130, and a Joint Resolution of the Congress No. 137. - -Under the rules you have a right to a 3-day notice of this examination. -I understand you are appearing voluntarily and do not require that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are also entitled to have counsel, and I understand Mr. -Abt is acting as your counsel in connection with this proceeding. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. You also have a right to have a copy of the testimony made -available to you. However, it is at your own expense. We just tell the -reporter that you can get it if you pay for it. - -Your counsel has a right to make objections during the proceedings and -also at the close of the examination on behalf of the Commission to ask -you such questions as he may care to, that may clarify anything that -you say that he thinks either you desire to have clarified or he thinks -in his good judgment should be either clarified or elaborated upon or -require further questions from him to make clear what he thinks your -testimony is. - -Are there any questions which you have in regard to it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Perfectly all right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Johnson, can you identify for us the position you -occupied at the time you received some communications from Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I was the director of the information and lecture -bureau of the Communist Party. - -Mr. RANKIN. I may ask you some questions trying to cover things which I -ordinarily would, and you wait for your counsel. Is it possible for you -to tell us whether you continue to occupy that position now? Is that -any problem? - -Mr. ABT. I think not. I think there is no problem. - -Mr. JOHNSON. No problem. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to do with the subscription list of -the Worker? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Immediately, I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you know, then, whether Lee Harvey Oswald was a -subscriber to the Worker, of your own knowledge? - -Mr. ABT. Just say of your own knowledge, whether you actually know it -or don't. - -Mr. JOHNSON. I mean, not of my own knowledge; no. That's the point, I -would say. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the fact that he was a subscriber come to your -attention at some time, through hearsay or otherwise? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Through hearsay only. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that from him or someone else? - -Mr. JOHNSON. From him in one of the letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you supply some correspondence that you had with Lee -Harvey Oswald to someone in connection with the consideration of the -assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I supplied all of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when was that that you did supply that information? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In the first week of December. - -Mr. RANKIN. What year? - -Mr. JOHNSON. 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to supply that information? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I supplied it in the office of John Abt to the -representative of the FBI at the time, in the presence of my attorney, -John Abt, and it was supplied to the FBI agent who came, and I assume -was conducting the investigation on behalf of the Commission at the -time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you supplied that material to this FBI agent, -did you make any search of files to determine what information, -correspondence or records you had in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. Very extensive. We went through every bit of the -office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that yourself or have it done under your -supervision and direction? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I did it myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. How large a search was that? I would like to establish how -complete, if I can. - -Mr. JOHNSON. I will admit the files are not exactly in an organized -fashion. It's--it was material in which there were a lot of other -letters and things like that. So I went through these files several -times. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yourself? - -Mr. JOHNSON. All the files, back and forth. - -Mr. RANKIN. You did that yourself? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And those were all the files that you could find that might -show any correspondence between---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Communist Party and Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that would be the complete file, everything, all the -correspondence. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when did you make this search? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Frankly, I started right after the assassination was -announced. As soon as that name appeared, I started to make a search. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you do this? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Somehow the name struck my memory. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you supply the information to the FBI agent that -was investigating? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, because I felt dutybound to cooperate in the full with -the Government in any investigation of this assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was ever a -member of the Communist Party of the United States of America? - -Mr. JOHNSON. To my knowledge, he was never such, and I would know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think you would know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes; I would, I am sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you an exhibit that has been marked---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit No. 1 on the examination of Arnold Johnson, April -17, 1964. It has been our practice for the examining attorney and for -the witness to initial the exhibit for purposes of identification so -there is no confusion. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Johnson, would you be kind enough to initial the -exhibit under my initials so we both certify one of the exhibits -offered. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes (witness complies). - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine that Exhibit No. 1 on your examination and -determine whether you have seen that before? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when did you receive it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In late June or early July--I believe June--of 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you receive it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In my office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it in substantially the same form that it was when you -received it, except for some notations by you on it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that there are some notations by you on that -Exhibit 1? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; there are. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about those, please? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The notations are "Send catalog and limited supply." - -Mr. RANKIN. What does that mean? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is in reference to a request for literature, and I -stated to send a limited supply, I mean, which means usually a copy of -one, a single copy of several pieces at the particular time. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. And what does the catalog reference mean? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The catalog is a---- - -Mr. RANKIN. A listing of your supplies and literature? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It is a listing of literature, which is a rather old -catalog, to tell the truth about it, of the International Publishers, -which usually is included in--which includes many other pieces of -literature that if the person was interested they could purchase. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain the other notation? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The other notation is "lit sent," which means that the -literature was sent. - -Mr. RANKIN. That notation was made by you too? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is my writing too. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the double line? - -Mr. JOHNSON. This double line refers to this particular point of -literature, and I made that double line. That is all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does this Exhibit 1, as you received it, consist of two -handwritten pages apparently written by Lee Harvey Oswald on or before -the date they bear, together with a single printed sheet about "Hands -off Cuba"? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. In the letter he refers to the leaflet "like the one -enclosed," and that accompanied the letter. It is also true on the -leaflet he refers to the term "free literature." - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of just what literature you -sent? - -Mr. JOHNSON. At the time when I turned this over I included copies of -what I would assume would have been the literature at the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is when you turned it over to the FBI? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I turned over copies of the literature at the same -time. That would be the normal thing for that particular period. I -think I could think through carefully---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Would that be four or five pieces? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Possibly more than that; about seven or eight. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you briefly describe about what they were for the -record? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they would be those pieces of literature which -somehow state what was being distributed around that time from our -offices, and I know it included a pamphlet "End The Cold War" by Gus -Hall; it included a pamphlet on the McCarran Act. I think it would have -included at that time another pamphlet on "Peaceful Co-existence." Then -the pamphlet that we usually sent by Elizabeth Flynn, something of the -history of the Communist Party, "Horizons of the Future." I am guessing -now, to tell the truth about it, from here on. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the reference in this Exhibit 1 to honorary -membership cards in the Fair Play For Cuba? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I know the reference is there; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether or not the cards were enclosed or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I really don't remember that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any oral communications with Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. None whatsoever. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any oral communications with anybody on -his behalf? - -Mr. JOHNSON. None whatsoever. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall doing anything about the honorary membership -cards, giving them to Mr. Hall and Mr. Davis, or anything like that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. That is where I don't really recall about them. If I -would have done that, then I am sure that I would have remembered it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall doing anything else about the letter, Exhibit -1, and the printed sheet attached to it beyond what you have described? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I replied to it. - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 2.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 2 on your examination and ask you -if you will identify that by stating whether or not you have seen that -copy and the original of that copy at some time. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. This is my reply to the letter we have just been -discussing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you prepare that reply? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you send it on or about the date it bears to Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly initial it. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. What did you mean in Exhibit 2 by the statement -that "We do not have any organizational ties with the committee"? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is in reference to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. And there are no organizational ties between the Communist -Party and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; and since he was writing -on that subject, I wanted to make it clear that there is no such -relationship existing, so that literature that was being sent was not -being sent from the viewpoint of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee as -such, or anything like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. By "organizational ties" did you mean to distinguish -between that kind of a tie and some other kind of a tie; is that what -you were trying to do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In the sense--well, in this sense, that while not being -responsible for what that committee may do, if there were activities -being done by a committee which would have our sympathy, well, there -would be that kind of relationship; but that is not any--not where we -would assume responsibility for it, nor could we indicate what its -policy would be, or anything like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are trying to distinguish between some official -relationship and mere sympathy? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that it? You did recognize a sympathy or desire to -encourage the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, I take it, then? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That and other similar committees, whatever they may be, -but not exclusively that. - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 3.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you if you recall having -received that from Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that one of the letters that you delivered to the FBI at -the time you described? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive it on or about the date it bears? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I think so. I mean within those days; not on the day but -afterward. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall receiving the honorary membership card of -esteem that he says he is sending to you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Somehow I do not; at least I never kept it, and it wasn't -attached to the letter at all when I found it in the files, or anything -like that. I do not recall that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you kindly initial Exhibit 3 too, please. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the second paragraph of Exhibit No. -3 to a clipping. Do you recall that at all? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I recall a clipping that had something to do with either a -distribution of literature or a--and I think that was it. I am not too -sure whether it also had something about an arrest or some altercation -that he had been in. I did not keep it. I did not regard it as of any -particular significance. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall destroying it or do you know what happened to -the clipping? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, things like that I would just very likely throw in -the wastebasket; that's all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether or not you responded to the Exhibit -No. 3? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I responded to that together with other letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. At some later date? - -Mr. JOHNSON. At a later date. - -Mr. RANKIN. There is a request in Exhibit 3 for additional information -or literature. Do you recall whether you sent any additional---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't recall exactly, but I would rather imagine not, -and for a very simple reason: If I would have, I would have made a -notation on here, "Literature sent." - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. I hand you what has been marked Johnson Exhibit No. -4 and ask you if you recall receiving that. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when compared with the date it bears? Do you remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Within just a few days after that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please initial that below my initials. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 4 in the same condition as it was when you -received it, except the notations on it that---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it one of the papers that you supplied the FBI at the -time that you referred to? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And does it consist of three pages, handwritten? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Right. Three full pages; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is dated August 28, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us about the notations that you put on -Exhibit 4? Describe first each one as you tell about it. - -Mr. JOHNSON. The notations that I put on? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. JOHNSON. This one, "Fair Play is a broader comm." I put that simply -as a point to be emphasized in my reply. The two lines on page 2---- - -Mr. RANKIN. The top of the page? - -Mr. JOHNSON. At the top of the page--as a point to consider in making -my reply. Those are the only notations that I've got on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, there is another notation in ink, "Arnold, please -reply," with the capital letter E, apparently. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who put that on? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Elizabeth Gurley Flynn. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is she? - -Mr. ABT. Mr. Rankin, I have advised Mr. Johnson respectfully to decline -to give any further information on this subject. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you meant by that notation, that is, -"broader comm."? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is a committee which -is inclusive of people of varied political viewpoints and backgrounds, -and it is not what we term a--a more limited committee, which would -have people more closely associated with us, but rather includes -people who vigorously disagree with us, and in this sense is a broader -committee. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is, it might consist of people who were sympathetic -with the Communist movement and also those who were in support of the -Cuban movement but not necessarily with the Communist movement? Is that -what you are saying? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; and who may even be vigorously opposed to the -Communist movement. - -Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference to Lee Oswald trying to dissolve his -United States citizenship. Had you known of that before you received -this letter? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this Exhibit 4 with anyone else at the time -you prepared your answer? - -Mr. JOHNSON. When Elizabeth gave it to me, just that she indicated that -I should answer it. There was really no discussion of what the answer -would be. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you give him an answer as to whether he should remain -in the background, i.e., underground? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that in your letter? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In my letter; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. There is on the last or third page, Mr. Johnson, a -notation, "Arnold," with a line above and below that. Do you know whose -handwriting that is? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Elizabeth Flynn's. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 4-A and ask you if that is a reply that -you prepared to Exhibit 4. - -Mr. JOHNSON. It is, but it is also to a further letter (indicating). - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Johnson Exhibit No. 6, dated September 1, 1963, -apparently in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald and consisting of -a part of one page in handwriting. Is that the other letter that you -referred to, that Exhibit 4-A is a response to? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive Exhibit 6 on or about the date it bears? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Shortly after; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same form? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It is. - -Mr. RANKIN. So by Exhibit 4-A you tried to answer both Exhibit 4 and -Exhibit 6? Is that what you mean? - -Mr. JOHNSON. And the one previous to that, too. There were three -letters that come in under this. - -Mr. RANKIN. By these three, you are referring to Exhibit 3---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. 3, 4, and 6. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you initial those two as I have done, Mr. Johnson. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 4-A, you speak about finding some way to get in -touch with Mr. Oswald in Baltimore. Can you tell us what you meant by -that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. In his letter of September 1, he refers that he is going -to come to the Baltimore-Washington area and asked for information -about how to reach somebody. It is not my practice to refer them to -people until a person comes into an area, and if there is any reason -to refer them to a person, then I do so under those circumstances. -Thus, this is a simple form of simply--of just saying that when such -a circumstance arises we can make a contact, that is, look him up -wherever he is at the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you received the letter, Exhibit 4, with regard -to Lee Harvey Oswald's trying to dissolve his American citizenship -while he was in the Soviet Union, did you make any inquiry to try to -determine whether he had taken such action? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Nothing further than was in the letter itself. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you said that it is often advisable for some people to -remain in the background, not underground. What did you mean by that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Very simply that as an American citizen, whatever he -is doing should always be aboveground; that a person remains in the -background within any organizational activities, that he does not push -himself forward in whatever he is doing. - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 5.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 5 and ask you whether that letter -dated August 31, 1963, consisting of two pages and an envelope, was one -of the pieces of correspondence you turned over to the FBI at the time -you described? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you seen that Exhibit 5 at some time prior to the time -you turned it over? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes; just within a couple of days before, I think it -was. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is addressed to a Mr. or M. Bert. I guess Mr. Bert. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Bert. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us who that is? - -Mr. JOHNSON. He is the managing editor of the Worker. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did that Exhibit 5 come to your attention? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I inquired specifically of the Worker as to whether there -was any other correspondence when I was assembling the material to turn -over, and I insisted upon a search of files, in an easy way, "Please -look through the files and see if there is anything." - -Mr. RANKIN. Who did you make that inquiry of? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I made that actually to Mr. Jackson. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us who Mr. Jackson is, enough so that we can -know how he may be acting or he may have the authority to search the -files? - -Mr. JOHNSON. He is the editor of the Worker. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was done shortly before you turned over the other -papers and this to the FBI? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any basis for believing that when you made such -a request it would be carried out? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us enough about that so we would know what -reason you would have to believe that it would be carried out? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the relationship would be one, which was very -normal; the editorial policy of the Worker in relationship to the -assassination; and insistence upon cooperation in any fashion to -determine anything related to it that would be helpful in the work -of the Commission or Government agencies involved. There was no -resistance, and there was immediately a willingness and desire to do -so; that is all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask that there be a complete search for anything -that would show any correspondence? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Or contact with Lee Harvey Oswald by either the Communist -Party in the United States or the Worker? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you satisfied that that search was full and complete? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I am. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that whatever you turned over to the FBI was all that -either of those organizations had in their possession? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further conversation with Mr. Bert in -regard to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Only in the sense of asking whether he was sure that there -was no other communications, and I think that was really all. I mean I -didn't ask him what his reactions were or anything like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you did not discuss the correspondence in the sense of -what it contained? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I think I did discuss this, I asked him whether -there was any reply to it, and he said, no; that he did not reply. -And I asked him specifically as to whether--"Are you sure?" because I -wondered if there was anything further, and he said he was very sure -about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you initial that too, please, Mr. Johnson. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the Mr. Weinstock that is referred to in this -Exhibit 5? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us who he is or was at that time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. He was at that time the managing--the business manager of -the Worker. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us where he is now? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Right at the moment he is out of town. He had a heart -illness some time back. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is he somewhat disabled? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Well, he is not working at all now, and I--he was in -town a few days ago seeing doctors, and I told him about this request. -I asked him specifically whether he knew anything about--anything -further about this letter, and so forth. He did not recall a thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him whether he had any other contacts with Lee -Harvey Oswald except the one that is referred to in that letter? - -Mr. JOHNSON. He did not recall it. I asked him that. I also made a -search of his back files and found nothing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry as to whether he knew anything -else about Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I inquired, I asked him that--this was all on the -telephone--and he said, no. And he went to this thing out in the -country some place, just to sort of recover from this illness. - -Mr. RANKIN. And there is a Mr. Tormey that is referred to in that -letter. Do you know him too? - -Mr. ABT. Mr. Tormey is here, and he is prepared to testify. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what position he occupied about that time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. About that time he was the executive secretary of the -Hall-Davis Defense Committee. - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 5A.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Johnson, I hand you Exhibit 5A, which I was informed -was one of the works of Lee Harvey Oswald that you turned over to the -FBI at the same time. Do you recall having seen that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not that was one of the pieces of -Lee Harvey Oswald's purported works that he had sent to Mr. Weinstock? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Whether he had sent it to Mr. Weinstock or whether he had -sent it to Mr. Bert, I don't know. I got it at the same time as I got -the letter from Mr. Bert. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you do believe that it was sent to one or the other? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It was sent to one or the other. It could have been either -one. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you understand that it was purportedly something -that Lee Harvey Oswald claimed to have made up himself? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not Mr. Weinstock wrote any letter -back to Lee Harvey Oswald about that or other material that he had sent -in? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Not of my own knowledge, other than there is a reference -to it in that letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; and you have already testified that you asked Mr. -Weinstock about it, and he did not recall any answer; is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. I notice with Exhibit 5, the envelope shows considerable -difficulty in reaching the addressee. - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how it happened to get to Mr. Bert? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the address is wrong in that on the envelope it is -26 West 23d Street, and the proper address would have been 23 West 26th -Street. That is the first mistake. Therefore it was apparently turned -back, and then the post office made the correction. - -(Witness initials Exhibit No. 5A.) - -(Document marked Johnson Exhibit No. 7.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 7, which is a letter from Lee Harvey -Oswald, with the envelope. Do you recall having received that and -turning that over to the FBI? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the time you referred to? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether you received it near the date that -shows on the envelope? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I know when I received it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Oh, you do recall? - -Mr. JOHNSON. And it was not near the date. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. When was it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The envelope has a postmark of the 1st of November. I -received it on the 29th of November. That is the day after Thanksgiving. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were probably surprised to receive---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. I was. This was after the assassination date by a week. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that letter? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You did not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You remember receiving it personally rather than someone in -your office at that time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It was brought in by the mail carrier in the normal--in -the afternoon, and then was delivered to me within the office, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you place your initials under mine? - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason for the delay in the letter? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I really do not. That's an unusual delay. I could readily -see a delay occurring after the 22d, but to have a delay from the 1st -to that date seems to me to be beyond all normal procedure. Even when -mails are held and checked during a thing like that, they wouldn't -stand so long. I cannot understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any examination at the time to determine -whether Exhibit 7 had been opened by anyone before you received it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; except that the envelope has the unusual line on the -back which indicates that there was possibly an opening and return. But -that could also be the way it was folded or something like that. But -you can see the line here [indicating]. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. You see that. It looks that to me, anyway, as if this was -the line where it had been opened and then put back. Then if you look -at the envelope itself, as an airmail envelope, normally this part -would be turned down, and instead it's open like this. Now, it's true -that, folded that way, it fits in only when it is this way, but then -this line should not have been here. There is something odd about the -whole letter as far as the delivery itself is concerned. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you make a pen line on the place on the back that you -find that unusual marking, please. - -Mr. JOHNSON. (Witness complies.) I will admit I was very much surprised -when I received that letter. I was bound to look at it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss it with anyone at the time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I guess I just made comments all over the place about -getting a letter from him at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any question about whether Exhibit 7 was -prepared and sent by Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I never studied his handwriting too carefully. There are -several things that looked a little bit odd about it. It's a little -hard to say. For instance, you have a different kind of ink in two -places here. It seems that way to me. But that's pretty hard to say -with modern pens. The way he signs his name and the way--that could be -a problem, because he didn't always sign it the same--or he has "Mr. A. -Johnston" up here, and it starts "Mr. Johnson" up here. I don't know -what all the confusing elements are, but I would just as soon leave -that to someone who is more--who is a handwriting expert, and I am not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have a conversation---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. It may be worthwhile to check it with a handwriting expert -on that. - -Mr. RANKIN. A conversation with V. T. Lee or any others in regard to -the Fair Play for Cuba matter and Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. At no time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any conversation with anyone about the effect -of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald and his connection with the -Fair Play for Cuba effort in New Orleans on the Communist Party? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Will you state that again? - -Mr. RANKIN. Read the question, please. - -(Question read.) - -Mr. JOHNSON. Not in that sense, no. Not in relationship to Fair Play -for Cuba et cetera. - -Mr. RANKIN. In some other sense, did you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, normally, just within our own--among our own people, -I would naturally discuss it and say that somebody could try to make a -false charge against us in some fashion, and that we of necessity would -have to react quickly to it so as to make clear that he was never a -member of the Communist Party, never associated with us in any fashion -of a political or organizational character. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not any -members of the Communist Party of the United States were involved in -any conspiracy with Lee Harvey Oswald about the assassination? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, I would say very definitely that they were not. There -was never any such relationships at all. There was nobody that I know -of who had any contact whatsoever, and I think I would have known. - -Mr. RANKIN. By nobody, do you mean---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. No Communist of any character, at any time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you made sufficient inquiry or have sufficient -knowledge so you were satisfied that that would be true? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. There was no relationships whatsoever. I would -say definitely I would know if any Communist would have had any -conversation, and I know of none, no communication or conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. By any conversation, you mean with regard to the -assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any contacts with the---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's so flagrantly against anything about the Communist -viewpoint that it's---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that, Mr. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Communists just do not believe in assassination as a -method of social change, and---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean that as far as the Communist Party of the United -States is concerned? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Definitely. - -Mr. RANKIN. Or generally? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Definitely and generally. I mean that very specifically. -It has nothing to do with it. We would say that anybody who harbors -such a thought is not only not a Communist but an anti-Communist -basically. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you extend that to cover the activities of various -groups in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. JOHNSON. As far as assassination is concerned, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I thought there was information that they had people -connected with the government who were engaged in trying to understand -and be able to use methods of assassination. - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that's true? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, no. That's not true. That's dissident groups, groups -like that, not Communist groups. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that is a part presently of the Soviet -Union---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. Definitely not. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it is any part of the plans of the -Communist Party of the United States? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I know that a thousand percent. We have for years made it -a point if anybody has such viewpoints they cannot ever be a member of -the party. They are expelled et cetera. We specifically speak against -any acts of terrorism or individual violence et cetera. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any contact with Columbia Broadcasting System -in regard to news matters relating to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's what I was referring to before, that as soon -as--yes, on the--I was trying to say the date, on the 23d, the day -after the assassination, I called and issued a statement to all the -news media in which I made it clear that Lee Harvey Oswald was not -associated with us in any way and so forth, and they carried this on -the radio or on television, I think one of them did. But it was also -carried on the front page of the New York Times and through other -papers. That was called in to all the stations, not just to Columbia. -There was a seven-sentence statement. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever say that Lee Harvey Oswald was not given -citizenship in the Soviet Union because they considered him a Fascist, -or words to that effect? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't recall that. I don't recall that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that your belief? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I never got involved in the reason, as I recall, as to why -he was not given citizenship there. I assumed they had good reasons. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see any writings or communications or anything -to indicate that he had a Fascist philosophy? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The only feature within that would be, within one of these -letters, when he refers to the fact that he attended the Walker meeting -down there in Dallas; another reported story of his volunteering to be -on both sides as far as Cuba was concerned, and then the further point, -and this is a matter of political orientation maybe as to why he was in -contact with Senator Tower instead of Senator Yarborough; that is just -pure speculation, it doesn't mean very much. - -Mr. RANKIN. Most of his expressions in his correspondence that you -produced indicated an interest and sympathy with the Communist Party -rather than any Fascist group, didn't they? - -Mr. JOHNSON. But the main point would be that this act is so -contradictory to anything in the Communist viewpoint, and that would be -the essential test, that any person who has that kind of a mentality -could just as well be covering up in communications, and that would -be one of the difficulties of it; but the act itself, you see, would -be an act, that kind of act of terrorism based upon the climate and -everything there which would have been an act from a Fascist-minded -person instead of from a Communist-minded person. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any evidence or know of any evidence to -indicate that this assassination was a rightist or extreme right plot -of any kind, conspiracy? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Not of evidence in that sense, no. If you draw conclusions -from the materials that were being circulated in Dallas, that ad in the -newspaper that morning, and the various communications of people, of -the added hate atmosphere, the warnings that were made of that hatred, -that was all of a rightist character. - -Mr. RANKIN. But that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was any plot -or conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy, would it? Or does it to -you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I would rather think not. I mean I would rather -think that nobody would proceed from any of this to the point of -assassination. And there it is a matter I think where a person may have -an opinion and not necessarily have evidence that could substantiate -the opinion. - -Mr. RANKIN. Or you could speculate easily? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is speculation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whether it was a rightist plot or there was a leftist plot? - -Mr. JOHNSON. If there was a plot, it was only a rightist plot. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you say that because you consider the act of -assassination to accomplish political ends is not within the Communist -Party philosophy; is that right? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That is basically true. The second basic point would be -the attitude of the Communist towards President Kennedy was one of high -regard and respect, even though sharply differing on many things, but -it was always that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Johnson, do you have any other papers or knowledge -bearing upon the assassination of President Kennedy that you haven't -related here? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Abt. Do you have anything? - -Mr. ABT. I have nothing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Abt, may we ask you to be so kind as to be sworn and -act as a witness for a brief moment? - -Mr. ABT. Surely. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES J. TORMEY - -The testimony of James J. Tormey was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 17, -1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Messrs. -J. Lee Rankin, general counsel and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. James J. Tormey was accompanied -by his attorney, John J. Abt. - - -James J. Tormey, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. RANKIN. Give the reporter your name and your address. - -Mr. TORMEY. James J. Tormey, T-o-r-m-e-y, 215 Willoughby Avenue, -Brooklyn, N.Y. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Tormey, you received some correspondence from Lee -Harvey Oswald, did you? - -Mr. TORMEY. I received--a letter was referred to me from him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who referred the letter to you? - -Mr. TORMEY. I don't know who it was, but apparently the letter which -is addressed on the upper right-hand side to 23 West 26th Street was -referred, and I don't remember who referred it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what your position was at the time you -received this referral? - -Mr. TORMEY. Yes; I was the executive secretary of the Hall-Davis -Defense Committee. - -(Objects marked Tormey Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Tormey, will you examine Exhibit No. 1 on the -deposition that you are giving today, which consists of several -placard-type pieces of material, together with some plastic pieces, and -tell us whether or not you have seen those before? - -Mr. TORMEY. I have seen them before. - -Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 1, I did not fully describe as I asked you to -examine it. It also includes a little note purportedly from Lee Harvey -Oswald, addressed to "Dear Sirs," with an address, 23 West 25th Street, -apparently, New York. - -Mr. TORMEY. I imagine that is 26th Street. I am not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-six; yes. And that was a part of the Exhibit 1 that -included these other materials that I have described, was it, when you -received it? - -Mr. TORMEY. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you received Exhibit 1 with those various materials -and that note on yellow paper, what did you do? - -Mr. TORMEY. Well, after reading it over I answered to the person who -signed the letter, stating that I would put it on file, expressing -appreciation for sending them, that I would put it on file in the event -that we would have any occasion to use his services. - -(Document marked Tormey Exhibit No. 2.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if that is a carbon -copy of the answer that you prepared and sent. - -Mr. TORMEY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Under our practice, the examining attorney is asked to -initial the exhibit, and the witness too, so it will be established -that we both---- - -Mr. TORMEY. Examined it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Examined it; yes. Would you kindly do that? - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. And kindly do the same for Exhibit 2. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Tormey, we have initialed Exhibit No. 1 on the back -of one of the placards, which appear to be the same, reading "The Gus -Hall-Benjamin Davis Defense Committee," below that the words "End -McCarranism" in large letters, and there are two of those, apparently -identical; and then two plastic sheets, with the same legend on each of -them, one of them apparently a negative and the other a positive, and -then the little note headed "Dear Sirs" and signed "Lee H. Oswald," and -message on the back, instructions, and so forth; is that correct? - -Mr. TORMEY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any other communications with Lee Harvey -Oswald except Exhibits 1 and 2? - -Mr. TORMEY. I have no recollection of any. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any search of your files to determine whether -or not there is anything else that you have? - -Mr. TORMEY. I did, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you do that? - -Mr. TORMEY. Well, it was--it would be sometime in the latter part of -November or the early part of December of 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make that search? - -Mr. TORMEY. Well, I had been told that a letter had been received from -me by him, and I decided to conduct a routine check. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of that search? Will you tell us so we -can know how complete it was? - -Mr. TORMEY. Yes; well, first I kept copies of all communications that I -had with anyone. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. TORMEY. So I would assume in advance that there was a copy, and I -asked the person who was managing the office at the time that I was -there to look into the files to see if it were possible that such a -communication did exist. I found that copy of communication. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the person that you asked to make that search a person -under your control and direction? - -Mr. TORMEY. At the time I was with Hall and Davis. - -Mr. RANKIN. But at the time you requested this search, this person was -not under your control and direction, I take it? - -Mr. TORMEY. Well, not control and direction. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. But there was a sufficient relationship so that you -are satisfied that the search was made, and it was a thorough search? - -Mr. TORMEY. I am perfectly satisfied. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you are able to assure us that there is nothing else -so far as you know in regard to any communication of any type with Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. TORMEY. I give that assurance. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any effort in regard to any conspiracy or -common action between any people associated with this Gus Hall-Benjamin -J. Davis Defense Committee that were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald in -the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. TORMEY. I have no such knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any information that would cause you to believe -that there was any such association? - -Mr. TORMEY. No; I have not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever use any of the material in Exhibit 1 in -connection with your work on the committee? - -Mr. TORMEY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other knowledge in regard to the -assassination of President Kennedy that you have not related to us? - -Mr. TORMEY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FARRELL DOBBS - -The testimony of Farrell Dobbs was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 17, -1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Messrs. -J. Lee Rankin, general counsel and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Farrell Dobbs was accompanied by -his attorney, Rowland Watts. - - -Farrell Dobbs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. RANKIN. In this examination, Mr. Dobbs, we are proceeding in -accordance with the procedures that the Commission has set out and by -reason of the Executive order of President Johnson No. 11130 and the -joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -The examination will be done by myself, J. Lee Rankin, general counsel -for the Commission. Mr. Liebeler is associated with me in that regard. - -You are entitled to a 3-day notice of this examination. I assume, since -you are willing to come here, you are willing to waive that 3-day -notice and proceed with the hearing at this time; is that right? - -Mr. DOBBS. That's right. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are also entitled to have your counsel here, as you -have, and during the examination, if he has any objection to any -questions or wants to have a recess so that he may talk with you, of -course, he may. At the close of your testimony, if there is something -that he would like to examine you about so as to clarify anything that -you said or give you an opportunity to correct or to change it, that is -provided for, too. Do you have any questions before we start? - -Mr. WATTS. Mr. Rankin, I think that it should show on the record -that this is a voluntary appearance, that Mr. Dobbs volunteered what -information he had and offered to come if you chose to have him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; we wish to have that on the record. - -Did you produce the information that was requested of you? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes; I turned it over to Mr. Watts, and he forwarded it to -you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have from the Militant files the 4-month -introductory subscription blank stamped September 17, 1962? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes; we offer it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 1. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the 4-month renewal blank stamped May 28, 1963? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes; we offer that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mark that Exhibit 2, please. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 2.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the Addressograph plate for Lee H. Oswald? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes; we offer that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mark that Exhibit 3, please. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 3.) - -Mr. RANKIN. And from the Pioneer Publishers' files--I failed to ask you -for the change of address notice postmarked June 12, 1963, and November -12, 1963. Do you have those? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes; I offer them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mark those Exhibits 4 and 5 respectively. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have from the Pioneer Publishers' files an order -for the Teachings of Leon Trotsky and a cash memo dated May 8, 1962, -indicating that 25 cents had been received? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes; we have that, and with them is a carbon copy of a -letter from Pioneer Publishers, dated September 28, 1963, and a -canceled envelope postmarked January 2, I believe, 1963, to Pioneer -Publishers from Lee Oswald, and we offer all of those. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mr. WATTS. In addition, from Pioneer Publishers, we have a letter from -Lee Oswald with a date January 1, the year not identified, ordering -"The Coming American Revolution," "The End of the Comintern," and "The -1948 Manifesto of the Fourth Internationale," indicating that 35 -cents is enclosed and requesting the English words of the song "The -Internationale," and attached is a receipt or a cash memo of Pioneer -Publishers, indicating that 35 cents was received. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mark that No. 7. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 7.) - -Mr. WATTS. We also have a carbon copy of a letter dated April 26, 1963, -to Mr. Oswald, setting forth the English words of The Internationale. I -believe that is all we have from Pioneer Publishers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any document from the files of the Socialist -Workers Party? - -Mr. WATTS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe those, please? - -Mr. WATTS. We have a letter dated August 12, 1962, signed Lee H. Oswald -to the Socialist Workers Party, asking for information concerning the -nature of the party and expressing an interest in finding out all he -can about the program. We have a coupon dated as having been received -October 31, 1962, signed Lee H. Oswald, indicating that he would like -to join the Socialist Workers Party, and we have a carbon copy of a -letter dated August 23, 1962, apparently in answer to the first letter, -thanking Mr. Oswald for his request for information and indicating that -a pamphlet concerning the Socialist Workers Party was being enclosed -and inviting further inquiry if he had any more questions. - -Mr. RANKIN. The last material you have described, Mr. Watts will be -marked Dobbs' No. 9. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 9.) - -Mr. WATTS. We have, in addition, a letter dated September 1, 1963, -signed Lee H. Oswald. Attached to it is what appears to be its envelope -from New Orleans, postmarked August 31, 1963. This letter requests -information concerning SWP representatives in the Washington-Baltimore -area and states that Mr. Oswald expects to be moving into that area in -October. That is all I have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. The last letter and envelope are marked Dobbs' -Exhibit No. 10. - -(Marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 10.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dobbs, do you have some occupation at the present time? - -Mr. DOBBS. I am secretary of the Socialist Workers Party. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you been in that position for some time? - -Mr. DOBBS. Since 1953. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have some correspondence with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DOBBS. We have nothing in our files other than what we have turned -over to you. I might add that I feel certain that we would have -responded to his--the coupon that he sent indicating a desire to join -the party. It's not surprising we wouldn't have kept a file copy, -because our interest in cases of this kind is an established thing. It -is our policy not to take anybody into membership in the party unless -we have a branch of the party in the area where they are resident. In -such case we would--we would have replied to him to that effect. We -would have suggested to him that he interest himself in the circulation -of The Militant and Socialist literature and would have expressed a -desire for continued fraternal contact with him on that basis. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall having seen Dobbs' No. 1 at some time? - -Mr. DOBBS. I recall that only in the sense that I assisted in the -search of the files after November 22 to find everything we could. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to the Commission what happened at that -time, what you did? Did you do something to try to find out if there -was any contact or communication between your organization and Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. I received a telephone call from one of the newspaper -reporters asking me if Oswald had ever been a subscribed to The -Militant. I told him not to my knowledge. I then, however, went and -checked the files, discovered he had been, and with that I decided to -check every file that I could, and find whatever information was in the -files, and get it together. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when did you do that? - -Mr. DOBBS. This would have been done, I believe, about Monday following -the assassination. I think it was on Monday morning I received the -call. - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a search was made at that time; can you -describe that for the Commission, please? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. We went through all the files that we had, and, well, I -guess that is about all I can say. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who do you mean by "we." - -Mr. DOBBS. Myself and members of the organization who work as my -voluntary office assistants, and I cooperated with the people in charge -of The Militant business office, and the Pioneer Publishing business -office. - -Mr. RANKIN. And how complete was that search? - -Mr. DOBBS. We made it as thorough as we could, to our best knowledge. -We have given you everything we had in the files. - -Mr. RANKIN. As a result of that search, you discovered Dobbs' No. 1, -did you? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is a subscription for the 4 months' introductory -subscription of The Militant---- - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. By Lee Harvey Oswald, or Lee H. Oswald? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is a practice in taking these depositions, Mr. Dobbs, -for the counsel that is examining to initial whatever exhibits are -presented, and also for the witness, so that it can be recognized as -official. - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 2.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time also discover Dobbs' No. 2? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what is that? - -Mr. DOBBS. It is a renewal of the trial subscription, and it is stamped -May 28, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you kindly initial that too? - -(Witness complies.) - -(Addressograph plate marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 3.) - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please initial that? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 4.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall at that time discovering Dobbs' No. 4? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is that? - -Mr. DOBBS. It is a notification of change of address sent by Lee H. -Oswald and stamped "Received" on June 17, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please initial that? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes (witness complies). - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 5.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Then did you discover at that time Dobbs' No. 5? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is also a change-of-address notice? - -Mr. DOBBS. It is a change of address notice from Lee H. Oswald stamped -"Received" November 14, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Changing the address from New Orleans back to Dallas? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you kindly initial that? - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 6.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall receiving Dobbs' No. 6? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What does that consist of? - -Mr. DOBBS. A cash receipt for 25 cents received from Oswald. - -Mr. WATTS. Correction, Mr. Rankin. It is not really a cash receipt; it -is a cash office memo. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. Is that correct? - -Mr. DOBBS. That is correct, yes, under date of August 31, 1962. And the -second item is an order blank requesting a book, The Teachings of Leon -Trotsky, signed by Lee H. Oswald, stamped "Received" August 28, 1962. -A third item is a letter under date of September 29, 1962, to Lee H. -Oswald from Pioneer Publishers, acknowledging receipt of the order and -indicating that the book ordered is out of print and that he will be -given a 25-cent credit on the money he sent in. - -Mr. RANKIN. The last item is the envelope? - -Mr. DOBBS. The last item is an envelope postmarked Dallas, Tex., -either January 2 or January 21, it is difficult to discern, 1963, with -Oswald's name in the upper left-hand corner. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly initial that? - -Mr. DOBBS. Each separately. - -Mr. RANKIN. No, just the first one. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle any part of the transactions involved in -Dobbs' No. 6 yourself? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, not personally. - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 7.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine Dobbs' No. 7 and tell us what it is, -please? - -Mr. DOBBS. An office cash memo acknowledging 35 cents received from L. -H. Oswald, dated January 11, 1963, and a letter to Pioneer Publishers -from Lee H. Oswald under date of January 1, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you initial that, please, Mr. Dobbs? - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 8.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine Watts' No. 8 and tell us what that is. - -Mr. DOBBS. It is a letter to Lee H. Oswald from Pioneer Publishers -under date of April 26, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you initial that? - -(Witness complies.) - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 9.) - -Mr. RANKIN. And Dobbs' No. 9, tell us what that is, please. - -Mr. DOBBS. A coupon signed "Lee H. Oswald," received under date of -October 31, 1962, in which he indicates, by placing a check in an -appropriate place, that he would like to join the Socialist Workers -Party. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is what you have referred to in your prior testimony -when you said that you would have responded to it in the way you have -described if you knew that there was no organization in that locality? - -Mr. DOBBS. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there a Socialist Workers Party organization in the -Dallas area at that time? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, no; there was not. - -Mr. RANKIN. You haven't discovered any copy of a communication to Lee -Harvey Oswald along the lines that you have described, have you? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you know it is a standard practice, and that is the way -you would have responded? - -Mr. DOBBS. That is correct. - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 11.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dobbs, we have what has been marked as Dobbs' No. 11, -which purports to be a copy, photocopy, of a carbon of your response as -of November 5, 1962, to Mr. Oswald's letter. Will you examine that and -see whether or not it is? - -Mr. RANKIN. I would like to correct the record to show that this is a -typewritten copy of the original, apparently not the carbon. - -Mr. WATTS. Clarify that. You are saying that it is a typewritten copy -of the original of the letter---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Purportedly. - -Mr. WATTS. Purportedly received by Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you first respond, Mr. Dobbs, to whether or not -this Dobbs' No. 11 appears to be a typewritten copy of a letter that -you wrote to Lee Harvey Oswald in response to his inquiry about the -Socialist Workers Party? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes, it appears to be the type of letter I would have -written. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you understand that we are going to secure the original -and submit it to you to see if it is in fact the letter that you did -write, and if you find that it is, then it will be offered as a part of -this deposition? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you initial now Dobbs' No. 9, please? - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. WATTS. Mr. Rankin, in his responding he did not get past that -coupon. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Will you describe the balance of Dobbs' No. 9? I -understand you completed with the coupon but not the other two pieces. - -Mr. DOBBS. The second item is a letter from Lee H. Oswald, addressed -apparently to the Socialist Workers Party and marked "Received" under -date of August 13, 1962, in which he requests information about the -nature of the party and its policies. The third is a letter to Lee H. -Oswald from the Socialist Workers Party under date of August 23, 1962, -indicating that a pamphlet is being enclosed for him entitled "The -Socialist Workers Party--What It Is, What It Stands For." - -Mr. RANKIN. I asked you whether or not the Socialist Workers Party had -any organization in Dallas. What is the fact in regard to Fort Worth -and New Orleans at that time? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, we had no organization anywhere in that area. - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 10.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine Dobbs' No. 10 and tell us what that -exhibit consists of. - -Mr. DOBBS. A letter signed "Lee H. Oswald" to the Socialist Workers -Party, dated September 1, 1963, stating that he would like to know -if he could get in direct contact with SWP representatives in the -Washington, D.C.-Baltimore area. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please initial that? - -Mr. DOBBS. Right on the envelope? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is right. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I notice that Dobbs' No. 9 refers to a Sherry Finer signed -on the letter, copy of which is dated August 23, 1962. - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is Sherry Finer? - -Mr. DOBBS. She is one of the volunteer assistants that helps me -occasionally with office work. - -Mr. RANKIN. And No. 11 is a typewritten copy of the original, -purportedly an answer to Lee Harvey Oswald that we have already -referred to, and you have said you thought it would be the type of -letter at least that you would write in answer? - -Mr. DOBBS. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And we have said that we would get the original and submit -it to you for your examination. If you find that the original is the -original of Dobbs' No. 11 when it is submitted to you, will you then -initial it and return it to us so we can make it a part of the record -here? - -Mr. DOBBS. I will do so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 12.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Dobbs' No. 12 and ask you if you know anything -about the person Bob Chester that purportedly signed the original of -that letter. - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is that Bob Chester? - -Mr. DOBBS. It is an associate of mine, works in collaboration with me, -a day volunteer here in the party office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the blowups, reversal and -reproduction work that he refers to there? - -Mr. DOBBS. I can only assume that he would have written about---- - -Mr. WATTS. Excuse me. You should answer what you know, Farrell; and if -you want to express an opinion, it is all right, but make it very clear -whether or not you have any knowledge. - -Mr. DOBBS. Would you ask me the question again; perhaps I did not -understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. I am interested in your knowledge about that material that -is referred to in the letter, the blowups and reproductions and the -other things that are referred to in the first paragraph. - -Mr. DOBBS. So far as I can perceive, it refers to a technical process. -I wouldn't know anything beyond that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know whether there was anything of that kind; -at least you did not find it when you made the search? - -Mr. DOBBS. I have no indication of such information in our search. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chester is still with your organization? - -Mr. DOBBS. He is. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't recall this Exhibit No. 12 or the original or -copies or anything of that kind? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. You did not find it when you made your search? - -Mr. DOBBS. That's right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly make a search to see if there is such a -letter and such materials in your files? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes; we will look for that. - -Mr. WATTS. Mr. Rankin, you are requesting Mr. Dobbs to make a further -search to see if he can find the letter and reproductions referred to; -is that correct? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, both; and if he does find them, to forward them to us -so they can be incorporated after they are initialed as a part of the -record in this deposition. - -(Document marked Dobbs' Exhibit No. 13.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dobbs, do you recall seeing Dobbs' No. 13? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the signature? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes; that would have been one of my associates that helps me -in volunteer office work. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you recognize the stationery, I suppose? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes; that appears to be on our letterhead. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you made a search of the files, you did not find any -letter like Dobbs' No. 13? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any information as to whether or not such a -letter was sent? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, no. I would assume, in view of the fact that it does -appear to be an official party letterhead, that the letter would have -been sent, but we would not have kept a file copy of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. And you do recognize the signature? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly initial that, please. - -Mr. DOBBS. (Witness complies.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of any other correspondence or -communications of any kind? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. With Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DOBBS. I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. You will note that Dobbs' No. 13 refers to a communication -from Lee Harvey Oswald of March 24, presumably 1963. Do you recall ever -having seen that? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not, and obviously it was not in our files or we -would have included it in the material we turned over to you. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you are making further search for this last item, -would you kindly make another search to see if you do have any copy of -Dobbs' No. 13 and also the letter from Lee Harvey Oswald of March 24? - -Mr. DOBBS. That's referred to here? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. We will make a recheck. - -Mr. RANKIN. We should also like that clipping that is referred to as -being enclosed with Mr. Oswald's letter, if you find it. - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I was not quite clear, Mr. Dobbs, about your response in -regard to that. Is that the type of letter you would not expect to have -a copy of in the files? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Because it is a general form that is followed? Is that the -reason? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. The reason--I can explain to you, however, our basic -procedure in matters of this kind. We receive quite a few inquiries, -and we have more or less an established policy of reply along the -lines I have indicated to you, so we do not keep an accumulation of -the--all the letters received and all the replies sent. As I told -you, our office work is done essentially by volunteer help. We are a -small organization with meager resources, and we have to adjust our -proceedings accordingly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any knowledge of any collaboration, association -or combination of any of the people in the Socialist Workers Party, -Pioneer Publishers, or The Militant, with Lee Harvey Oswald and his -action in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. DOBBS. None whatever. So far as I know, nobody in any of the -categories mentioned by you ever knew anything about him other than the -written material that we have made available to you. - -Mr. RANKIN. With your position in connection with these organizations, -would you have such material? Would such information be available to -you if it existed? - -Mr. DOBBS. Yes. If anybody in the organization would know, I would -know. I am the central executive officer of the party. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that no one had such an association with -Lee Harvey Oswald from those organizations? - -Mr. DOBBS. Absolutely so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any other communications, either orally or -in writing, between any of those organizations and Lee Harvey Oswald, -other than what has been produced here? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have some information, Mr. Dobbs, that when Lee Harvey -Oswald was about 16 years of age, he communicated with the Socialist -Party of America and the Socialist Call. I would like to know whether -or not those have any relationship with the organizations that I have -just described that you have some connection with? - -Mr. DOBBS. No, sir; it is an entirely different organization. Our -organization didn't come into being until 1938. - -Mr. RANKIN. And these organizations, the Socialist Call and the -Socialist Party of America, were not predecessors of your organization? - -Mr. DOBBS. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Or associated in any way? - -Mr. DOBBS. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any knowledge of any conspiracy or association -with Lee Harvey Oswald by anybody with regard to whatever he did in -connection with the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; I do not, and I would add that it's a matter of historic -record, long established, that our organization's philosophy is opposed -to individual acts of political terrorism. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any additional information beyond what you have -supplied here that might be of assistance to the Commission in regard -to the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. DOBBS. No; we do not. We have sought voluntarily to provide you -everything we have in the spirit of giving you whatever cooperation we -could, and we have given you all the information we had. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that includes anything, either oral or in writing? - -Mr. DOBBS. Correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Dobbs. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. ABT - -The testimony of John J. Abt was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 17, 1964, -at the U.S. courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Messrs. J. Lee -Rankin, general counsel, and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of -the President's Commission. - - -John Abt, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as -follows: - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you state your name? - -Mr. ABT. John J. Abt. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. ABT. 444 Central Park West, New York City. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are a practicing attorney in the city of New York? - -Mr. ABT. I am. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been practicing law? - -Mr. ABT. A long time, Mr. Rankin, since 1927. You do the mathematics. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have been informed, I am sure, that Lee Harvey Oswald, -after his arrest, tried to reach you to request that you act as his -counsel. I don't know how you were informed, but I have seen it in the -newspapers. When did it first come to your attention? - -Mr. ABT. May I tell you the story, Mr. Rankin? Perhaps that is the -simplest way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. ABT. On Friday evening, the 22d, my wife and I left the city to -spend the weekend at a little cabin we have up in the Connecticut -woods. Sometime on Saturday, several people phoned me to say that they -had heard on the radio that Oswald had asked that I represent him, -and then shortly after that the press--both the press, radio, and TV -reporters began to call me up there. I may say we have a radio but we -have no TV there. And in the interim I turned on the radio and heard -the same report. - -I informed them--and these calls kept on all day and night Saturday -and again Sunday morning--I informed all of the reporters with whom -I spoke that I had received no request either from Oswald or from -anyone on his behalf to represent him, and hence I was in no position -to give any definitive answer to any such proposal if, as and when it -came. I told them, however, that if I were requested to represent him, -I felt that it would probably be difficult, if not impossible, for -me to do so because of my commitments to other clients. I never had -any communication, either directly from Oswald or from anyone on his -behalf, and all of my information about the whole matter to this day -came from what the press told me in those telephone conversations and -what I subsequently read in the newspapers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Abt, did you learn that Lee Harvey Oswald was -interested in having you represent him apparently because of some prior -connection of yours with the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mr. ABT. No. My assumption was, and it is pure assumption, that he -read about some of my representation in the press, and, therefore, it -occurred to him that I might be a good man to represent him, but that -is pure assumption on my part. I have no direct knowledge of the whole -matter. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all that you know about it? - -Mr. ABT. Yes. I may say that I have had no prior contact with Oswald, -knew nothing about him, did not know the name, and this request came as -something entirely new and surprising to me when it came. - -Mr. RANKIN. None of your clients had ever communicated to you about him -prior to that time you heard about it over the radio? - -Mr. ABT. No; I had no recollection of even having heard the name, his -name, before that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mr. ABT. Right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM - -The testimony of Mrs. Helen P. Cunningham was taken at 5:20 p.m., on -April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. -Jenner, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. -Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state your full name? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Helen P. Cunningham. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you rise and be sworn. Mrs. Cunningham, in your -testimony that you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission. The President's Commission was -created by U.S. Senate Joint Resolution 137. That Commission under that -legislation is appointed to investigate the assassination of our late -President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. The President of the United States, -Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, did act pursuant to that legislation and under -Executive Order 11130, he appointed the Commission and brought it into -legal existence. Its duties, as I have indicated, are to investigate -the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and -in the course of that work, which has now been going on for some time, -we find many people, especially people here in Dallas, who had some -kind of contact in the normal and usual and regular course of business, -most of them, whether State agents or otherwise, with Lee Harvey Oswald -and some of them with his wife, Marina. We understand from others of -your fellow employees of the Commission that you had some contact with -Lee Harvey Oswald and I would like to ask you some questions about that. - -Am I right in my assumption that you did have some contact with him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was in your capacity, in the due course of your work -with the Texas Employment Commission, that office being located here in -Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside, Mrs. Cunningham? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. 1046 North Winnetka. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. What is your definition of "native"--born here, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, say--born or lived most of your life in Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; my speech indicates that I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. I detected that. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I was born in St. Louis, Mo., and resided in Missouri -in various portions of it. - -If my voice is low, young lady, if it doesn't come to you, well please -call my attention to it. - -We came to Dallas in 1951 and we have resided here since then. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you been employed by or associated with the -Texas Employment Commission? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Since August of 1957, if I am remembering my dates -properly. - -Mr. JENNER. And your duties with the Commission, say, the last 3 years -have been what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. As an employment counselor. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain what that is, please? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. We are a small group of workers that are set into our -operation, who are given more time to deal with applicants, who for one -reason or another had difficulty in finding jobs or in holding jobs, -and we used the best techniques that are available to us to be helpful, -primarily to the applicant, but also preparing him for what he finds in -the labor market, and what working conditions are, and what employers' -requirements are. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me, in general, how does the Texas Employment -Commission function? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. As a quasi-Federal-State operation under the U.S. -Department of Labor and you undoubtedly know that there is a Bureau of -Employment Security office here. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the Federal Bureau? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or agency? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; which represents the U.S. Department of -Labor and serves a region in which we are. I am by my paycheck an -employee of the State of Texas, however. It works, in general, however, -as all the public employment offices do, in the 50 different States. -Now, do you want more detail than that, or was that helpful. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, probably, that is sufficient, with a little -supplementation. Let me put to you a couple of hypotheticals. Someone -comes into this State who has had no connection with any employment -in the State of Texas and that hypothetical person comes to the Texas -Employment Commission and said he is seeking employment--does the -Texas Employment Commission do anything, or would it do anything about -seeking employment for him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Certainly. We have, you know, what is commonly known -as a clearance procedure, which is an interchange of orders and -applicants among the States and it is an interlocked operation among -States. - -Mr. JENNER. And that particular person, I take it from what you say, -you would inquire of him as to his past employment? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the other States, and would seek the information from -the other States by way of confirmation, or would you go that far? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we generally accept the applicant's statement -as to what his previous employment is, and in general, the employer -checks references if he is considering hiring that individual. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the second hypothetical I would like to put to you--I -anticipate the answer is obvious--he is employed by someone in Texas, -let's say, in this county, that employment terminates, he then comes -to the Texas Employment Commission, I take it you would undertake upon -review of his record and make it a necessary recording of that record; -to also seek to obtain him employment if he sought it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. We are a public agency and our doors are -open to the public. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it coordinated in anyway with unemployment compensation? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us how that operates? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, you know the legislation better than I do, -because I am assuming that your profession is a lawyer? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am a lawyer, but don't presume I know anything. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, I would hate to be talking to the table -[laughing]. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham, the person who reads the record may not be -a lawyer. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I see. - -Mr. JENNER. And may not understand this and my purpose is to record how -the Commission functions. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The original legislation established the employment -service and the unemployment compensation program under one law, -and until about 1 year ago in Dallas, applicants for unemployment -compensation applied at usually the same office for recording their -availability for work and making a claim for unemployment compensation, -as where the employment services were housed in the last year in -this particular area, and it is not true throughout all the public -employment service offices--not even in this district. We have split -out the employment services from the unemployment services, but -there is a coordination between the offices and in the procedures on -unemployment compensation, I know the general law and the necessity for -being able and available for work, while being a claimant, and I make -no pretense of knowing the up-to-date details of that. - -Mr. JENNER. No; I wasn't seeking that. I just wanted the general -picture of how they are coordinated. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And you see, one of the necessities for a person -filing a claim for unemployment compensation is that he be registered -in a public employment office. - -Mr. JENNER. And be available? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Be available and be able to work. Those are basic -requirements and I think those are the same throughout the States. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in the performance of your duties, your particular -function with the Texas Employment Commission, did you have occasion to -counsel, talk with, or examine a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that please, ma'am. If you need any of these -records to refresh your recollection, please use them, and as you -refer to them, would you hesitate so I can identify the exhibit to -which you make reference? You may use those documents to refresh your -recollection. You did have a direct contact with Lee Harvey Oswald -and I would like to have you give me the time, when it commenced, and -relate it to us. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. As Mr. Statman has probably told you, a photostat of -the counseling record is not here. The record I am now looking at is -the application form. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, it is the form that I described in the record, -the top line of which reads, "Describe your longest and most important -jobs, including Military Service. Begin with your most recent job." It -is also the application form called E-13. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it is E-13. - -Mr. JENNER. We will mark it Cunningham Exhibit No. 1. Now, I take it -you were at the Texas Employment Commission and Mr. Oswald came in; is -that correct? [The original of Cunningham Exhibit No. 1 is in evidence -as Cunningham Exhibit No. 1-A.] - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. I'm on the record. I got a call from an -acquaintance of mine, as I recall it, it was from Mr. Teofil Meller, -M-e-l-l-e-r (spelling). - -Mr. JENNER. That is T-e-o-f-i-l M-e-l-l-e-r (spelling)? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. You can be right--I was recalling it with an "H" in -it, but I believe that's the way he does spell it--asking me if I would -see Lee Harvey Oswald or Lee Oswald, as it was known, as they were -giving assistance to his wife and infant child, and they were saying, -"If you can help him, it will help the family and relieve us of this -burden." - -Mr. JENNER. You understood, then, from Mr. Meller, that the wife, at -least, was residing with him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. At or had previously resided there for a brief time. I -can't be certain of that. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, that the Mellers were under obligation to -assist or they had volunteered to assist? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Volunteered to assist. - -Mr. JENNER. They had volunteered to assist the Oswalds or at least Mrs. -Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Meller say anything to you at this time as to who -Mrs. Oswald was and who Mr. Oswald was? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. As I recall, he said that Oswald was a Fort Worth boy -who had lived in Russia and had married a Russian girl, and it was she -who was in their residence and it was their offspring. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, they had a child and the child was the offspring -of this marriage? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I cannot be certain whether I gave an appointment at -that time or not, or simply said, "Well, ask him to come in and see -me"; that would be normal procedure, or usually we look up any records -that we may already have, you see, sir, and if you will excuse me, I -will see what I have on some little scratch notes here when Mr. Odum of -the FBI called me from the district office. - -Mr. JENNER. You use anything you wish to refresh your recollection. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. All right, sir. I am uncertain whether the 10-9-62 -dating on this application form is my handwriting or not. I know that -the 10-10-62 is. - -Mr. JENNER. That's October 10, 1962? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--that is my dating of the application card -and I would suspect that that was the first day on which I saw him, but -I could have seen him on the 9th. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Part of the application appears to be in Lee Harvey -Oswald's own handwriting or printing. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this application filled out in your presence? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That, I cannot recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it filled out as part of your interview that you then -conducted? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That would depend whether I saw him on the 9th and the -10th, also, and I cannot be sure of that at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it indicate that the form at least was commenced to be -filled out on the 9th, and that in any event, most of the information -thereon was recorded on the 9th and the 10th of October 1962? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Or thereabout, because our practice is--if we have a -current date that we did not redate every day--the individual is in--on -the application form, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it indicate at least reasonable certainty in your own -mind that he was in your own office on the 10th day of October 1962? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; and that I talked with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The greater part of the information concerning his -reputation and training is in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would indicate that you obtained that from him -when you interviewed him on the 10th of October 1962? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it also indicates that I used one of our -counseling tools, an interest checklist. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain what that is. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. It is a form which asks for quick decisions about a -person's interests, like or dislike or question about sample jobs or -work and it is the relationship of the individual's interest to groups -of jobs. It would further indicate that on the 10th of October in 1962, -I learned from him that he had taken our general aptitude test battery -in the Fort Worth office. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your general aptitude test battery is something -distinct from the short form of test you just a moment ago mentioned, -is it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; it is a correlated tool--the interest check -list delves into interest. The general aptitude tests battery is a -measure of aptitude. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you tell me what the results of the inquiries as -to the interests tests were? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is no indication on this form, and I would not -have detailed recollection of it, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any kind of recollection, detailed or otherwise? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. To tell you the truth, unless I saw it--I saw I.C.L. -here--I would have been uncertain whether I used this counseling tool. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham, this is Mr. Robert Davis of the attorney -general's office of the State of Texas. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much for coming today, Mrs. Cunningham. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of the subject of his interest -tests? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I recall that there was some in the writing area. - -Mr. JENNER. This was an aptitude, a particular aptitude? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Interest, sir; I am speaking of. - -Mr. JENNER. He had an interest in doing some writing? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your inquiries of him on that subject, how -did you probe him in that connection? He had an interest, but the fact -that somebody says he has an interest in doing something, that isn't -sufficient for you, is it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; but usually I use the aptitude test results -along with the interests check list, and I could well have said -something--"Yes, you have the capabilities for writing, but this is in -a job area where you are not likely to get a job quickly," and I did -not probe, as you are saying, as to what he wrote about or anything of -that kind, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did not undertake a probing to determine whether -it was merely an interest to go on to determine whether there was an -aptitude coupled with it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The aptitude test indicates that there is some because -the verbal score is high and the clerical score is high, but my concern -was primarily to meet this family's need. - -Mr. JENNER. The immediate need? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The immediate need for income, and the young man's -apparent need for employment, and in the counseling service, I -attempt to do two things. First of all, to help young people to find -a vocational choice which may not be an immediate thing that they can -get into, but then, secondly, basically--applicants come to us for a -job and I use the interest check list and the general aptitude test -battery in working toward both purposes, and if the job can be in line -with their vocational choice--fine and good--but if it is an immediate -need for employment, then the emphasis is toward what can you get with -immediacy? What is available? Where are your qualifications as of today -likely to be used in the present labor market? - -And, basically, that is what I did with Oswald, because as he was -presented to me, that was the immediate thing--was at least to get this -young man into work where he could support a family and himself, and I -didn't even--I would at--I would say--attempt a vocational choice with -him nor give that much time to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Also, the test results can be used in exploring what are the most -likely possibilities and can be helpful to our placement staff in -knowing at least where this individual has the potential for serving an -employer well, and that's what some of these indications at the lower -part concerning the test data indicates. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please interpret that for me? What the tests -indicate? - -Now, you are interpreting here the tests made by the Fort Worth -District office, are you? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you obtained those results by communicating with the -Fort Worth office? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Either on or prior to October 10, 1962? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Subsequent to 10-10-62. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you got those results, what did you find in -interpreting them? - -You see, the reader of this transcript will look at these forms and see -nothing but figures. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What do they mean? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Have you identified this form? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; the form you now hold in your left hand, which -I have marked as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2, we have identified as -"Individual Aptitude Profile" and we have read into the record the -figures sequentially occurring at the bottom, beginning with figure 109 -and ending with 126. [The original of Cunningham Exhibit No. 2 is in -evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2-A.] - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Have you used this data here at all? - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Statman said you would be better able to interpret than -he, and he suggested that when you testified that I ask you to do that. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Very well, sir. To the right of the form we were just -speaking of---- - -Mr. JENNER. In the vertical column? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under the headings "OAP". - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Occupational Aptitude Pattern--the numbers of the -patterns which are circled are the ones in which the applicant has made -the minimum scores or above, and are indicative of strength for various -patterns of occupations. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, various patterns--aptitudes for various occupations? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. You will see that if I copied correctly, the -entries on the face of the application card are those which are circled -on the test record, and are the ones that he had potential in those -patterns--"Jobs for occupational patterns." - -Mr. JENNER. And in which did he have potential and which were indicated -as deficiencies or weaknesses, if any? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Of the 23 patterns, then being used by the employment -service, there were only three in which he did not meet the minimum -requirements. - -Mr. JENNER. And those three? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Or 4, 1, 3, 5, and 20. - -Mr. JENNER. You have just called off numbers that are encircled on the -exhibit "Individual Aptitude Profile"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; they are struck off. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are stricken off for what reason? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Because the applicant's scores did not meet the -minimum standards to qualify for those occupational aptitude patterns. - -Mr. JENNER. What occupational aptitude patterns are indicated by the -numbers you have read which in turn were stricken off on that exhibit? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry, sir; I cannot at this point answer that -because we are using a new manual with new occupational patterns and -there are a number of the detailed jobs in these patterns, and I could -not even expect to carry the whole matter in my head. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. If you like--I shall talk a little about this. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, before you go to the bottom line, there are numbered -aptitude patterns that are encircled. That means that the applicant had -the minimum aptitude for each of those that are encircled? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Since you were not able to tell me what the aptitudes were -in which there was an indicated deficiency by the striking of the -number, I assume you are not able to tell me what the aptitudes were -that are encircled, in which he did score in them. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Not in detail. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do some interpreting? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you do so? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Perhaps I should talk about the next two columns to -the right here. - -Mr. JENNER. You are still talking about the same exhibit? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--note that the date on this is 10-11-62. - -Mr. JENNER. That's October 11, 1962. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And these are three specific tests which are set into -the testing program in the Dallas clerical and sales office. Comparing -the standards of those specific tests with the report as given from the -Fort Worth office, I chose three of them--the B-400, which is a general -clerical--a general office clerk is the designation of it; by BX-1002, -and a B-493. - -If my recollection serves me properly at the time of this interview, -the B-493 was aptitude for entering drafting. The BX-1002 is an -experimental test for claims examiners in the insurance industry. On -each of these three specifics, he scored high. - -Mr. JENNER. What led you to select those, as to this man? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Basically, it's usually done in relation to his -interests, and because of jobs available in this labor market or -possibly available. For instance, the Clerk General office cuts across -all industry, and strength in it can be used in a number of industries, -and in a number of work situations. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. We have a lot of insurance and insurance firms here. -The claims examiner is not usually a beginning job, but it is some -indication that a young person can start in the clerical field and -perhaps move in this direction in the insurance industry. - -I would assume that there was a relationship to some discussion of -this experience and training in the Military Corps in the electronics -and radar that suggests the drafting or because I knew of some -possibilities in that area. - -I see nothing in what I have recorded about the high school training -which would so indicate that. - -Mr. JENNER. All of these records that have been placed before you, -being three in number, do you interpret them indicating anything other -than--I do not mean to be deprecatory here, that this man had about a -high school education. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Sir, I accepted his statement that at some time and -some place, usually when the young man is in the armed services, he -had taken the high school equivalency test and had passed it. There -is nothing from the aptitude scores that would lead me to believe -otherwise. In fact, there are some things in it that would tend to say -that he could do college work. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicate that, please--what leads you to say that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, the "G" score, which is a general ability and -not an IQ score, is above 100. We have certain standards that we carry -in the back of our head that that says--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It says--yes--what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. College capabilities. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Other factors being equal, of course. The verbal is -quite high--this is one of the learning tools, exact knowledge of words -and word meanings. - -Mr. JENNER. And his score in that connection was? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. 127. - -Mr. JENNER. You say this is quite high--what is an average? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. We are told that about 50 percent of the people -who take this test score 100 and below, and the other 50 percent of -necessity 100 and above--the break point is. We are warned against, -however, looking at any one of these items and considering it alone, -except as we were talking of possibility for college training -altogether. - -Mr. JENNER. His score in the first category you have mentioned was what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. 109. - -Mr. JENNER. That is close to the minimum? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain that. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. You said "the minimum"? - -Mr. JENNER. The minimum necessary--is there a minimum standard? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. A necessary for what, of course, is the immediate -question. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to decide, for example, "Well, this man does -have capability for college study." - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have not reviewed these figures that are in our -manuals recently, but if I recall correctly, 100 is thought sufficient -to do a junior college or possibly in some--a 4-year course; that about -125 is required on the "G" score for professional schools, and 110 is -quite good for finishing a 4-year college. As you see, this score is -close to that, and we consider the test only about 15 percent of the -total in making decisions about vocation and it is not the biggest -factor. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record a minute. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Cunningham, -off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I think we had better be on the record on this. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. None of our tests are personality tests. - -Mr. JENNER. You see, I want you to tell me what these are, and if I -misinterpret them, I want you to correct me. It is important that we -know what testing was done and that we don't misinterpret it ourselves. - -Now, is any of this a personality test? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; none whatsoever. It is aptitude--it is an -interest checklist and I am an employment counselor only, and that -is why you got part of the answers from me a while ago, was that I -was limiting it to that segment of counseling which presumably is my -specialty, and for which I am paid by the Texas Employment Commission. - -In general, I would say that the tests indicate potential for quite -a broad number of jobs--certainly in the semiskilled and skilled -occupations. - -Mr. JENNER. Would these be a potential with training? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Certainly I have indicated the areas in the -clerical field by the tests that I selected and most of the drafting -jobs, of course, are semiprofessional. I did not apparently think that -these others were important at the time or I would have given other -classifications. - -Mr. JENNER. Other classification tests? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I'm sorry--I am throwing you on terminology. -This indicates where the application is held. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you mean by "this"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The words "Routine Clerical Work--1-X4.9" is a -classification of the application in the area where the application -will be held by the placement interviewers for referral on jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. This represents an entry based on your judgment in -interviewing? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is your personal entry and your handwriting? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what does that job classification mean and what degree -of aptitude, if any, does it indicate? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. On the entry level. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the entry level? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Into routine clerical work--it covers a lot of jobs -and a lot of work circumstances. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I ask you this--there is a surface inconsistency -between that particular classification you gave him and your testimony -with respect to his capabilities to do college work. I say there is a -surface inconsistency, would you explain that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. To enter professional jobs, usually the -employers require more training or experience in the area of the -profession. The availability in this labor market of clerical jobs -to a newcomer into the labor market area is very much greater and, -therefore, the job opportunities for this young man in a clerical entry -job would be much brighter than in an entry for a professional job. - -Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, then, in that classification as dictated by -your knowledge of the available labor market, this was an area which -at the time seemed to afford greater opportunity for placement of this -young man immediately. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the information related to you by Mr. -Meller, that there was dire need for financial assistance here. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other aptitudes you recorded on his ability you -thought to do college work--those are not inconsistent with the -classification you gave when you considered the whole problem that was -facing you at the immediate time. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Then I was talking about the potential only for the -future, he had not even started college--a college training, by the -record as I was giving it, sir, and because there is nothing as -presented in the work history when I first worked with him which would -indicate that he had ever worked at a professional or semiprofessional -level that would give strength to a professional classification, and -remembering, too, that the aptitude test is really only about 15 -percent of the decision as to where this individual shall seek as of -this time in this place---- - -Mr. JENNER. The other factors being for one instance--one, the ready -labor market, and two, the immediate need, if there is an absolute -immediate need, and what other factors? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Previous work experience--a good work record within -the present labor market can be a big factor. Any employer, as you -well know, would much prefer to pick up the phone and call for a -reference than to write to Podunk and maybe get a communication and -maybe not, and they don't know really what that firm is or with whom he -is communicating, and I would say in general, and this is a personal -judgment, that the incoming person to a labor market has to take the -lower pay, the less desirable job, until he gets a work record in the -community, unless he is highly qualified and in one of the shortage -occupations. - -Mr. JENNER. And from your visit with this young man, he had not much of -a work record, do I fairly state that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The work record when he came to me was limited in -length of time as indicated on the application. It was mixed, as far -as occupation was concerned in the semiskilled, in the sales, in the -clerical. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, he had a semimixed work record involving one or -more of the three major groups you have now mentioned. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "Yes"--when you nod your head, we can't get -it on the record. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I thought I had said it was broken and limited, so, -"Yes" is the answer. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, you go right ahead, you are doing fine. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Please note that in the work record there is an -entry subsequent to when he was counseled, and that is in the -semiprofessional or professional, if anyone would look at it. - -Mr. JENNER. You say "subsequent," does that mean a later time or -subsequently during the course of the interview you had with him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; at a later time. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. As indicated on the record it is 4 months to July of -1963 in photography. - -Mr. JENNER. And he had the experience for that length of time somewhere? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. It indicates that it was in New Orleans with William -B. Reily Co. - -Mr. JENNER. And he reported that as having been experienced in what -connection? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Looking at the subsequent dating of the application -card, it would appear that this was recorded in October 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that is important and I am interested in that. In -October 1963, which was a year subsequent to your interview, which had -commenced at least on October 10, 1962, does it appear from those forms -that he again returned to the Dallas office to make a work application? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you again counsel with or see him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. I did not know until after the President's -assassination that he had recontacted the office after these October -1962 interviews of which we have been talking. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a record on any one of those exhibits of the -number of applications that he made and when those applications were -made in the sense of his personal appearance for the application? You -have mentioned one, that is your own, that was generated by Mr. Meller? -Do your initials appear there, or do you just happen to recall that? Is -there something on the form in the way of your initials or signature -that indicates to you that you did that? - -There appears on the reverse side of the form, E-13, (Cunningham -Exhibit No. 1) in the handwriting, the word "Cunningham." Is that in -your handwriting? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There appears above it, and also is a signature--are you -familiar with that signature? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. It is of a counselor, at least presently a counselor, -in the industrial office. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the Texas Employment Commission? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Of the Texas Employment Commission in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any significance in the fact that his name appears -above yours or yours below his? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us about it. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. This brings to mind that in seeking the records for -this applicant, because--I guess the Mellers must have said "He has -already been down to the Texas Employment Commission office and has not -gotten a job," then, I started trying to find the records, so I did -not duplicate, and I am uncertain whether this is the record that Mr. -Brooks transmitted to our office or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Brooks? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The counselor in the industrial office. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are in what office here in Dallas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Clerical and sales. - -Mr. JENNER. So that your counseling and your examination is directed -primarily to clerical and sales? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Sir, I would not agree fully with that. We take the -public as it comes to our door and it is entirely possible for me to -have an applicant arrive where I could decide that he was better served -in another office and would transmit records and suggest that the -applicant call at that office. In the Dallas organization we have our -offices organized around occupations basically, and in our particular -building, as you may have been told, we have a professional office and -the clerical and sales office. We also have an industrial office. - -Mr. JENNER. In the same building? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; at 1206 Ross Street, and this original -application card could have come from there to our files. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the fact that your signature appears under Mr. -Brooks' signature indicative of that likelihood? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; by location it would be. These comments that -are above Mr. Brooks' are in my writing. - -Mr. JENNER. They are? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And those comments are under the classification headed -or entitled, "Applicant's characteristics--well groomed and spoken. -Business suit. Alert replies. Expresses self extremely well." That's in -your handwriting? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you made that record after you had interviewed Mr. -Oswald? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Perhaps after at least the second interview when I had -had the tests results. Usually, I try to hold it until I more or less -synchronize the information that I get. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, that records your reaction of him at that -time? After you had the interview or interviews with him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, above that, under the heading, "Conditions affecting -employment," there appears--would you read each line, and as you read -it, is that in your handwriting? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; "bus transportation." - -Mr. JENNER. Bus transportation meant what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That he did not have a car and driver's license, and -so consequently, he would have to use public transportation in seeking -a job. - -Mr. JENNER. You interest me; you say he did not have an automobile or -driver's license. Did you make inquiry on that subject--did he have a -driver's license? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The front of the card--there are entries above the -word "car--no" the license that we usually use here is a driver's -license; then the word "none" is in front of it. Now, I didn't know who -made these entries. They could have been made by Oswald or they could -have been made by Mr. Brooks, if this is a photostat of the card which -Mr. Brooks first worked with. Can you see that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I see what it is. That's what Mr. Statman said in his -testimony and in any event, from examining the card and your interview, -it was your impression on that day that he did not have a driver's -license? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall you made a specific inquiry on the -subject? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; what is on the card would tend to indicate -that I took it as it was recorded and that I did ask whether he had to -use the bus to get to and from work--to--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the next line in your handwriting reads---- - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "Wife and child" and in parenthesis "8 months" which -indicates the information I was given about the age of the child as of -that date. - -Mr. JENNER. The child was 8 months old? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entries about which I am now -examining you? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. In October 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time this child was more than 8 months old? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I could have recorded it wrong. I could have been -informed wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me see--I will withdraw that--I may be wrong. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I don't even know enough to check on it. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what you recorded, in any event? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you would have received that information from him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next line? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "Outstanding verbal and clerical potential." That -comes from what I was seeing on the test scores. It is to alert the -placement worker of where the counselor finds his greatest potential to -be through the testing. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Next line. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "Financial position necessitates immediate employment." - -Mr. JENNER. And that in turn affected what I might describe as being -your immediate classification of him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And has a bearing on that--is there another line in your -hand? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is it? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "Brother--junior executive, Acme Brick" and the second -line entry---- - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been information you received from him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. "Brother--Staff Sgt. Air Force." - -Mr. JENNER. Does that indicate to you two separate brothers? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is information that he afforded you? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -The next entry is "10-10-62." - -Mr. JENNER. All right, that is 8 days later? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. It sounds like to me the first day I saw the boy, or -the second day. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "HPC" for my initials, and a "B" with a circle in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry--I'm not certain as to why that "B" was -recorded there. We do use or did use, an A, B, C, D, E, F, for the -kinds of problem and it could have been that, but I am unsure of what -that entry means. - -Mr. JENNER. What were your A-B-C problems? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. This gentleman is going to ask me to remember the -whole manual this afternoon. - -"A" is little or no work experience, and entry into the labor force -basically, with no vocational choice. - -"B" is an entry into the labor force or relatively so, or re-entry with -a questionable choice. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean questionable choice in what sense? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That the applicant says, "I want to be a lawyer," -and you say, "Are you ready, what training do you have, what is the -indication?" - -Mr. JENNER. Your questionable choice, therefore, is a question on your -part as to his capability to attain that which he desires? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Which is an expressed desire, but you see, sir, I do -not have my basic counseling record among these papers and this is part -of the reason that I am uncertain here. If I had the comparable and -complete record, I could better answer the present question. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have no definite recollection of what the boy asked -for, as far as an occupation is concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. He wanted work immediately, you were also attempting to -determine what he was seeking ultimately and your judgment of his -capabilities to accomplish that which he sought ultimately; am I -correct? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--but I again remind you that I did not attempt -with Oswald the full counseling service, because I placed emphasis on -the immediate with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's important to me. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, I'm sure it is. - -Mr. JENNER. What is "C"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "C" is expressed change of occupation for a variety of -reasons. - -Mr. JENNER. A desire to change whatever occupation he had been pursuing? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And in that case it is presumed that the person is -fully qualified in an occupation from his work experience. - -Mr. JENNER. If a counselor reached the conclusion that he was not -qualified or needed further training or you had any question about it -as to the other occupation or the change of occupation the applicant -desired, would you then classify him under "B" rather than "C"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; because as a counselor, I am -applicant-and-individual oriented, and I guess as a counselor also, I -work under the philosophy that the individual has some choices of his -own and the best that I can do is give him information, use what tools -and what knowledge I have gotten out of training and experience to -help him to make the best choices, but the decisions basically are the -applicant's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say there was a "D" classification? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; there is a "D". - -Mr. JENNER. What is that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry, I cannot bring it to mind at the moment. -There is an "E" and an "F" and a "G". - -The "F" is emotional problems, which were not apparent in this young -man to me in the few times that I saw him. He was well contained, well -spoken, and did not give any information, as I recall, except what I -referred to. - -As I see his mother on television, this interviewee seems to me, and I -have to use that verb, that there is a certain same kind of firmness in -the individual there, and certain capabilities there, and to use words -well. - -Mr. JENNER. On the part of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you notice any personality quirks or qualities or -attributes in Marguerite Oswald as you observed her on television and -her son, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is a driving in the woman that I did not see -in the son. There is a strident of voice in the mother as she comes -through to me on television that was not in the son. He was very -self-contained. - -I didn't probe for information because I was trying to meet the -immediate need and to deal with the employment problem, only, sir, and -then we also have workload and time pressures on us, as you well know -in any job there are that. - -We have applicants who are waiting to be interviewed and I guess now, -with hindsight, I'm sorry that I didn't--but that's hindsight. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have capabilities in that area? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have capabilities in the area of inquiry into -personality--when I said "capabilities"--first, do you have any -training in that area? You necessarily have some experience, I am -sure--formal training, let me put it that way. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm going to get into your overall training in a little bit. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I hesitate to say this, because the pressures are -with us in the Texas Employment Commission, to do a limited job on the -vocational employment thing, because that is our emphasis and that is -as right, but I have to say that I think a life is a unit and that -you can't take a slice out of it and look at it alone and be very -effective, nor that a human being can cut away from all his past, nor -his associates, nor the other things that are affecting him and so I -try to approach an individual, when time permits and when it seems like -it might be effective in his vocational life, to get some information -about other parts of his life. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I got you off on this because I asked you -what the "B" in the circle meant--may we go back to that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I thought I had answered completely. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you have, but as I say, I got you off on it when we -reached that point--I interrupted you. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The entries on the application form, E-13 (Cunningham -Exhibit No. 1) below "do not write below this line"--none are in my -handwriting and they are not counseling records. They are referral -placement records. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, does the recording there indicate a reference of a job -to the applicant and the result of that reference--what happened after -the reference was made? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The record is not absolutely complete, but in -general--yes--and some line entries--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that form necessarily indicate if the applicant -refused the position as distinguished from the possibility, for -example, that the employer, when he interviewed the applicant, -concluded that he did not wish to employ him? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is some indication of each, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, taking those entries, would you comment on each of -them in that respect, taking them seriatically and tell us about it. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. On the first line entry, in the column headed "Call" -there is a dash. That indicates to me that the applicant was not called -in, that he was in the office and referred to the placement section. On -the same line, under the word "referred" there is a date--10-8, which -is struck through, and above that is written "10-10" and then under the -heading, "Employer or agency," I am reading the entry there, "Harrel -and Harrington, architects;" under job title or purpose, the word -"Messenger"; under the abbreviation for duration, the letter "P" which -indicates a permanent job; under "pay", I am reading $1.50. - -Mr. JENNER. Per hour? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The hour is not indicated--that is inferred. There -is no entry under "results". On the same line under "remarks" are the -initials "LL". - -Mr. JENNER. Whose initials are those? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Placement worker who was with us formerly, whose name -is Louise Latham. - -Mr. JENNER. She was with you until yesterday? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, I knew it has been an off again and on again -situation--so you are more current than I about even in my own agency. - -Shall I begin on the next line? - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as far as that reference is concerned, there is -nothing recorded as to what the result of that reference was? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. After having seen it, my recollection -was that the boy was not hired. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the decision of the employer? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; and that is the information that would have -come through me, either from talking to the placement worker or to -Oswald on a second interview, you see? - -Mr. JENNER. The cause for that doesn't appear--of course, it may be -that when he got there the job was filled or anyone of a number of -reasons? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Since it is a blank entry, the applicant could not -have reported, or the employer had rejected him, or he had seen other -applicants and chose from them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's go to the next line. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under the column "Call"--10-26-62. - -Mr. JENNER. That indicates what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That he was called by telephone message, because there -is a "TM" above the date. - -Mr. JENNER. That means "telephone message"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think that I am correct that that is the meaning -there. Under the "referred"--NRO. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No referral offered. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That in trying to fill an order of an employer, the -placement interviewer called in a given number of applicants, in -trying to find one who would meet his specifications after reviewing -application cards (referring to Form E-13; Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), -and I would read it that the applicant replied that he came to the -placement worker, that in the discussion the placement worker made the -decision not to refer him. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a recording there of what the prospective -reference would have been? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--employer agency: The Dallas Transit. - -Mr. JENNER. For what position? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Messenger, and I cannot read something in parentheses -after that--"permanent duration"--I judge it to be $175 a month. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is nothing in the result column. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose initials? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry, I cannot distinguish them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. However, there is the date--10-30, and I can't read -what is above the date--10-30. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that on the same line? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me see if I can read it--could that first word be -"working" and then there is some initial following 10-30, the first of -which appears to be "W", the next is "T", and the next is "F". - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I wouldn't risk a guess at either one of those, sir, -because I am not acquainted with this handwriting and it is not mine. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go to the next line, please. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The next line--there is a dash under the word "Call", -"referred"--there is a date 10-12, there are no other entries on that -line. - -Mr. JENNER. So, what does that mean to you? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it can mean a number of things. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is no indication on the front of the card to -indicate that the applicant was in the office at that time. It can be -that someone started an entry and never completed it, and I am sorry, I -just don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay, let's get to the next line. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under "called"--the change of the year is indicated by -1963 having been written. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's---- - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under that is May 3 and the letter "M" which indicates -a call in by mail. We use a form. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that mean the applicant called in? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That means the agency called him in by mail? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, just as the 10-26-62 "TM" meant telephone message. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is no entry under "referred". Under -"Employer--Agency" is Texas Power & Light Co. The job title or -purpose is "Meter reader." The duration is permanent, the pay is -$250. A runover item in the "Results" column is an E-19. That is one -of our form numbers which the employment service uses to inform the -unemployment compensation office that an applicant who is a claimant -was called but did not report or did not accept--or at any rate appears -not to be available for referral to jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it be that there was no response to the mail notice? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; it does mean that because there is no entry -in the referred column, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under the remarks are the letters "NR" which means -"nonreport"--just what you were asking, and there is a repetition, if I -am reading it correctly, of E-19, which is the same entry we just spoke -of and the date---- - -Mr. JENNER. One, which is a similar entry meaning the same thing as the -previous one? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Which is a duplicate entry--E-19? - -Mr. JENNER. I wanted to make clear that you weren't merely reading the -same entry you read before. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; on the same line is written the date 5-8-63, -which is 5 days subsequent to when the card was mailed, wasn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. What was the date--May 8, 1963? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And then in parentheses are written the words -"Moved--left no address" and there are two initials there that I cannot -decipher. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't think I need to ask you to interpret that. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there another line? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under the word "Called" is 10-7-63--TM, indicating a -telephone message under the column headed "Referred" is 10-8-63. - -Employer-agency--I read--"Solid State Electric; job title or -purpose--sales clerk; duration--permanent; pay--$350 a month; under -"Results"--"NH"--meaning, "Not hired." - -Under "Remarks" is printed the word "direct," which I interpret to mean -that our staff member did not make an appointment for the applicant but -asked him to go directly to see the employer. - -Mr. JENNER. The "not hired" entry indicates what to you as to whether -the employer rejected the applicant or whether the applicant declined -their employment or any other reason. What did that indicate to you in -this area? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Ordinarily it means that the employer rejected the -applicant and I am seeing that there was an erasure in this "NH" which -looks as if it could have been "ARJ". - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That means "Applicant rejected job," and frequently -these kind of changes are usual happenings with us because we can -always call an employer and check too quickly and he will say one -thing, or if you talk to another person in staff they will say, "No; -we didn't hire him." Can you see how that would happen, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that combination with the erasure leads you to -interpret that, that while there was initially a report that the -applicant refused the job, on a further check it was ascertained that -he was not hired, meaning that the prospective employer did not hire -the applicant, rather than that the applicant rejected the position? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there another entry? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think I got into the column under "Remarks" and had -explained the word "Direct" before. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry--I cannot read the entry under the word -"Direct." I can read the initials "RLA", who is our Mr. Robert Adams. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the man I examined this morning? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That means that Robert Adams handled that particular item? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; and that he saw the applicant on that day -and gave the referral. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. In the next line under the word "Called" is a -dash, which indicates that the applicant was not called in, but -probably appeared at the office and was routed back to the placement -interviewer, and the date is the next day--10-9-63; "Employer agency is -Burton-Dixie"; job title or purpose is "Clerk Trainee"; the duration -is permanent; the pay is $1.25, the results are "NH", which means "not -hired." - -Under "Remarks" is "direct" and the initials RLA which is our Mr. Bob -Adams. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under "Called"--10-15, with a "T," which means -that he was called by telephone, under "Referred" is 10-15, -which would indicate that he reported the same day, and under -"Employer-agency--Trans-Texas"; under "Job Title or Purpose--cargo -handler"; under "Duration" is "P"--under "Pay" is $310. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a month? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; "result" is "NR". - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "Nonreport." - -Mr. JENNER. That in turn means what? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That the applicant accepted the referral, led the -placement interviewer to assume that he would see the employer, -and that when the placement interviewer checked with the employer, -he reported to him that the applicant had not reported. Under -"Remarks"--working--I think it is 10:30 a.m., 10-16. There is no -indication of where working. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any initials there? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "RLA." - -Mr. JENNER. That's the same Mr. Adams? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That would indicate that when that reference was made, it -was found that Mr. Oswald was already working somewhere else? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; it would indicate that Mr. Adams very likely -checked the following day in some fashion or it could be that Oswald -called Mr. Adams and reported that he was working. - -Mr. JENNER. This reference was made on what day, according to that -record? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Are you using the word "reference" as we use the word -"referral," sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. 10-15. - -Mr. JENNER. And then there is an indication that Mr. Adams made a check -on that reference the following day or the same day? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I am uncertain which it is referring to, whether he -left the entry there--let me go back--"NR" that he called the employer -on the 16th and recorded the "NR," or whether there was a conversation -between him and Oswald on 16th, from where he got the information he -was working--I do not know whether he ever worked at Trans-Texas from -this. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this complete the entries under that section of the -form? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of Lee Harvey Oswald, as you -recall him, doing your best to transport yourself back to the time that -you had contact with him. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Self-contained, able, perhaps not giving any more -information than he was asked for, entirely presentable as far as -grooming and appearance was concerned; there was nothing at all that -I recall that was argumentative in my contacts with him. The general -appearance was of, and what these records indicate to me, was of a -young applicant with capability, not any sound or extensive work -experience, the longest period of the training and experience was in -the Marine Corps---- - -Mr. JENNER. And a limited education? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. A limited education, but he had done something about -it before he came to me or he wouldn't have a high school equivalency -certificate, if he did have. At least, I had no reason to question -that he did not have, after I got the test results from the Fort Worth -office. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham, would you tell me, please, your education -qualifications for the work you are doing and your experience -qualifications and what brought you into this field? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have a master's degree from the University of -Missouri, which was granted in 1938. It is a B.S. in educational and -vocational guidance. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a master's--and you have a B.S.--did you say? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have the B.S. and the master's subsequent to it and -I have a B.S. in education from Southeast Missouri College in 1928, -which you see comes before this master's work. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have taken some subsequent courses at night classes -as I could at a variety of universities, St. Louis University, -Washington University, in St. Louis, at SMU--a summer subsequent to the -master's at the University of Minnesota. - -Mr. JENNER. All in what areas? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The B.S. was education. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in 1928? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And at Southeast Missouri, did you say? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; Cape Girardeau. And my undergraduate majors are -math and science, I guess I've got one in English, too, that I picked -up. - -Mr. JENNER. You graduated from college, then what did you do--there's -10 years there I wanted to cover. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I taught school and went to school some summers, I did -some social work during the depression days in the Southeast Missouri -area. - -Mr. JENNER. I remember them--I was practicing law then. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. You should have been down where they have good land -and poor people, down in the Boot Heel of Missouri. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Wood River country? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. In the Boot Heel of Missouri where the Mississippi and -Ohio come together. - -Mr. JENNER. I was down in the area where the Mississippi and Ohio come -together forming the tip of Illinois--down at Little Egypt. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. In Cairo? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, in Cairo. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And part of the time I was a housewife. In 1938 I went -to Jefferson City where my husband was employed--this was Jefferson -City, Mo. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the State capital? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I was with the Missouri Employment Commission -and I worked in the central office there and he was a teacher in the -public schools of the city and I went from there to the St. Louis -metropolitan office in the spring of 1940, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the OPA? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No; that was the War Manpower Commission--really -during the war period. You know, we moved from State to Federal and -then back to State--it was much easier going in than coming out--with -the stroke of a pen--we were in. - -I moved with that agency, I guess, from interviewer to labor market -analyst for that metropolitan area and then I taught awhile. There may -have been a period where I was not employed, because Mr. Cunningham and -I have had heavy family responsibilities on the other end of life from -1940 to the death of his mother this past Christmas at 89, the same as -Churchill, and in 1951, we came down here. - -I have basically worked for A. Harris as an accounting clerk. In 1957 I -had qualified under the Texas law and had taken the examinations, and -in August 1957--I was employed by the Texas Employment Commission as an -interviewer of some variety. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been at it ever since? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham, does anything occur to you that you think -might be helpful to the Commission in these areas about which I have -inquired of you which, due to my lack of knowledge of the facts or -for any other reason I have not brought out, that you would like to -volunteer and which you regard as pertinent to our investigation? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I've never really been into the investigation--of -course, have never been into any kind which was of such grave -importance as this, sir. I couldn't really make a judgment of what -would be important to you. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to try to make a judgment as to -what would be important--all I said, is there anything you think is -pertinent? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I would like to say this: As I said to the -gentlemen from the FBI who called me. - -I have not been close to the Mellers recently. You see, this -acquaintance came through our both working for A. Harris. - -Mr. JENNER. For whom? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. A. Harris & Co. - -Mr. JENNER. What business is A. Harris? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. A retail trade--it is now Sanger-Harris, one of the -major department stores here, but I have no reason to believe otherwise -that the Mellers were good citizens and very grateful for American -democracy. - -I rather suspect that the records show that I was a sponsor of Mr. -Meller for his citizenship, and I think, having been one made me value -my own greater, because I came down and sat in the courtroom and saw -what it meant to incoming people. - -I also recounted to him that one time when we were playing tennis--Mr. -Meller came to the court, and he said, "I have a letter I want to -show you," in a state of excitement, and I said, "You have?" And he -got it out and it was from the U.S. Department of State, saying "You -registered as an alien" at such and such address. "We have a request -from Australia of a sister or a woman who purports to be your sister, -and she is asking for your address. Do we have your permission to give -it to her?" - -And then Teofil said, "Nowhere else in the world would any Government -be this considerate of me. I am only an alien." - -Now, I haven't seen him because our paths haven't crossed very much -in the recent years, but I think that that incident sticks with me -because, again, I'm a stick in the mud--I have been in Missouri and I -have been to Texas, and I just have to get some experience by reading -and by studying and by talking with people, and other experiences, -but when I worked at A. Harris, I talked with some of the displaced -people who had been through World War II and through the horrors of -that period and it was a broadening of my own experience. There was -some gaining of some firsthand knowledge of the Jewish people and -their history. I read some in the area. I helped them a bit with their -use of English in the trade and they were all apologetic to me for -involving me, you see, and I said--well, I just accepted the boy as -another applicant. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the normal course, as far as you were concerned? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you saw nothing that would lead you to believe it was -other than the normal course as far as the Mellers were concerned and -they were activated by charity in their hearts and desire to help out? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That's right, and out of their own suffering. It is my -observation that people who have suffered and who have helped to share, -tend to do it a little more, probably, than those who have never known -what it is to starve. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall a conversation of whether the subject -of Mr. Oswald's loss of these positions arose, and whether he said -anything on that subject? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Which positions, please, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. You interviewed him 10-10--he had been employed prior -thereto by Leslie Welding Co., I think? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Doing sheet metal work, he says, "Made ventilators, cut -sheet metal--4 months"? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That is a Fort Worth employer, is it not, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. All I am seeking to do is to stimulate your -recollection--if you have one--as to whether the subject ever arose -in which he said he was having difficulty obtaining a position or -retaining, either way, and whether he made any comments in that area? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; the entry which is on the application card in -"Reason for leaving" is "Laid off." I do not know whose handwriting it -is in, and I did not delve into that. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't delve into that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir--that says, "Dallas" doesn't it--10-62. I was -thinking it was a Fort Worth employer--I did not go into that, as I -recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it was a Fort Worth employer, as a matter of fact. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know--why it seemed to stick in my head that -that Leslie Welding was Fort Worth, whether he told me he had worked -briefly in Fort Worth or how it got there. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no entries in any of those papers to refer to the -fact that he had been in Russia and that he returned from Russia with -his Russian wife--why is that? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think that in the kind of job we are in, sir; we -never know who is sitting beside us. We are, as I say, a public agency -and there is a certain amount of information that is supplied us by -the applicant, and ours is not an investigative procedure. There is -a certain amount of information that one accepts and works from, and -I think that I would not have thought this a pertinent entry on this -employment. - -He was back in the United States. I would work on the assumption that -the Federal Government would know why he was back and had given him -permission to be back. Sometimes, with noncitizens, we ask for some -kind of an emigration card or a visa and make that kind of an inquiry. -This young man came to me, presented as an American citizen, the record -indicated that; he had served in our Armed Forces and I guess that I -would also add, rightly or wrongly, that in my judgment this could have -blocked his getting employment here and if the employer learned it by -questioning him when he was an applicant, he would make use of the -information as he saw fit. - -Basically, I try to assume that the other guy is telling me the truth -and unless it is apparent that some things don't stack up, I don't -probe and say, "Now, what were you doing between so and so and so," -or if there is a big gap which could indicate a prison sentence or -hospitalization or what have you, I would probe there. If he has his -dates befuddled, I may work with him to help him to recall or suggest -to him that maybe some home work--he ought to write all this down so -that when he is filling an application form out for work so that he can -get it accurate. - -As you well know, this is not too cosmopolitan an area, with people -with a lot of backgrounds in it, and you see "Oswald" is not again -a name that would indicate anything but an American background--the -appearance of the American, his speech, and so I just give those two -basic reasons. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to whether he spoke Russian with -a view in mind possibly of recording that as a job qualification? - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I did not. If he had been apparently a -Russian citizen or of Russian derivation, I could well have done it, -as I enter Spanish, or Polish, or German, and I would not think that -Russian would be very helpful because all of this background doesn't -say--translator--or again any of the rare jobs or professional, does -it, and that in our classification is professional work. - -Mr. JENNER. I can think of nothing else that has stimulated me to -inquire further of you. I appreciate very much your coming over and -this has been a helpful interview and at some inconvenience to you, I -appreciate. You have been very helpful and very cooperative. Now, you -may read your deposition, make any corrections in it you wish, sign it -and Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime next week. If you will call -Mr. Barefoot Sanders' office and speak with his secretary, she will let -you know when it is ready to be read. - -Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Let me make a note as to when and where. - -Mr. JENNER. All right--she will have it for you, and thank you again -very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF R. L. ADAMS - -The testimony of R. L. Adams was taken at 1:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, Assistant -Attorney General of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Adams, would you rise and be sworn, please? - -Mr. ADAMS. Surely. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in the testimony which you are about -to give on deposition that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. ADAMS. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the -members of the legal staff on the President's Commission, which, as -I believe you know, was authorized to be created by Senate Joint -Resolution 137, and President Johnson added to that legislative -authority by an Executive Order 11130 appointing the Commission and -fixed its powers and duties. In general its duties are directed towards -investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the -tragic event of November 22, 1963, the assassination of President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy. - -This has brought us as members of the staff and the Commission itself -to inquire into a rather wide range of circumstances, including running -down a lot of things that have arisen by way of rumor and otherwise, to -sort out the wheat from the chaff. - -One of the people towards whom our particular inquiries have been -directed is Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have testimony from a host of -people who had some contact with him during his lifetime. - -The particular assignment of our division, Mr. Liebeler and I and -others helping us, is of Mr. Oswald's life from the day he came on this -earth until his death on the 24th of November 1963. - -If I may ask you some questions--I understand you had some contact with -him or in your official capacity in the Texas Employment Commission, -you in turn have people under your supervision and direction at least -who had contact with him? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. R. L. Adams of the Texas Employment Commission, -and is that located at 1025 Elm Street? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. If you would, would you state your official position with -the Texas Employment Commission, please? - -Mr. ADAMS. I am employed as a placement interviewer. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have persons under your supervision and -direction? - -Mr. ADAMS. No; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what is the Texas Employment Commission? - -Mr. ADAMS. The Texas Employment Commission is the Texas version of -the Federal-State Employment Service. As such, it is operated and -jointly federal-state funded, and seeks to assist those people who are -unemployed primarily through finding employment for them and in the -event that we are unable to do so, to provide them with unemployment -compensation for such time as they may be eligible. - -Mr. JENNER. I happen to be an Illinoian myself. I practice law in -Chicago--it's tied in with the Unemployment Compensation Commission? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And those who had suffered unemployment seek the assistance -of the Texas Employment Commission to obtain for them new employment? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How does that operate, do you--do the employers register -with you or they call you up--I would like to have you give me a normal -operation so that we can compare that background on normalcy against -what might have occurred with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. ADAMS. Normally, employers in all categories of business and -industry will use many avenues to obtain suitable employees. One -of them, hopefully used by most of them, is the Texas Employment -Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. I said to you that my impression from the depositions we -have taken is that your commission does have and is held in reasonably -high regard by employers and the ones I have interviewed have indicated -that they may resort to the commission rather frequently. - -Mr. ADAMS. I am delighted to hear it. It is a selling job--this is not -your main thing, but because it is a State-Federal organization, it -has been subjected to a lot of unpleasant publicity which was formerly -known as the Texas Unemployment Commission, which did nothing to -enhance it. - -I worked on the street for a while calling on businesses and more -often than not I ran into people who were very dissatisfied with the -commission because of previous poor service, or alleged poor service, -and in the time that I have been with the commission, 2 years, I think -we have striven to improve the quality of service, both to employers -and to applicants and so employers do call us. Some of them have -standing orders with us. Some of them use us once and they don't get -what they want and that's the last we hear from them, but by the same -token we hope that all people unemployed would come to us in the course -of their efforts to find jobs. I think many people mistakenly assume -that TEC exists to find them jobs. This is not true. TEC exists to help -them find jobs and in the course of their job seeking, they, I suspect -75 percent of them, will register with TEC and with other agencies. - -Mr. JENNER. Other like agencies or private employment agencies? - -Mr. ADAMS. Private agencies and, of course, we have the continuing -battle of the public versus private activities. - -Mr. JENNER. The scope of employment, that is the work, is of great -variety, is it, the jobs that are being served? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; all the way from laborers up through doctors of -philosophy in varying fields. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you ever seek, for example, let's use a hypothetical -day--you mention a doctor of philosophy--let's say he had a Ph. D. in -geology, and he came to the commission. You do not have at the moment, -let us say, with respect to this hypothetical Ph. D., an inquiry from a -prospective employer. Do you mean that the TEC would in that kind of an -incident--a man of quite high education, would you seek a position for -him by calling possible employers? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; we would do this and we refer to it either as job -development or the projection of a highly qualified applicant to -selected employers who might be in need of such a man. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you become employed by or connected with the TEC, -as you call it? - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, I retired from the United States Air Force in January -of 1960, and attempted to be a salesman for about a year and thereby -losing my hat and shirt, and I decided I had misused the talents that I -had mastered in the service and returned to Government service. - -Mr. JENNER. That was when? - -Mr. ADAMS. I joined TEC on March 9, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, I am a Chicagoan. - -Mr. JENNER. You are--so am I. I think I mentioned that. How old are you? - -Mr. ADAMS. I am 47, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when in your position with TEC you -had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and give all the circumstances as you -now recall, in the chronology that you recall? - -Mr. ADAMS. I can't, except that my memory was refreshed by my office -manager subsequent to the events of November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. Having refreshed your recollection, do you now have a -recollection? - -Mr. ADAMS. Vaguely. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, give us your best recollection--your best present -recollection of this event and relate it. - -Mr. ADAMS. At the time that I--in September, beginning the second -week in September of 1963, I was brought in from employment service -representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to -gain some experience on a placement desk. - -After I had been there, well, when November the 22d rolled around and a -couple of months--when this happened, the following Monday morning when -I came to work, I said, "I'll bet that boy is in my files." - -I went to check and I couldn't find any record of it and the office -manager said, "What are you looking for?" And I said, "You know what I -am looking for." And he said, "I've found it." - -Mr. JENNER. Who is the office manager? - -Mr. ADAMS. Mr. A. K. Sayre [spelling] S-a-y-r-e. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he still with the TEC? - -Mr. ADAMS. He is still the office manager--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, then, is there a lady there by the name of -Louise Latham? - -Mr. ADAMS. She resigned from the Texas Employment Commission effective -yesterday, but she lives in the local area. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mrs. Louise Latham? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that -I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas -Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he -said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about -it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he -said, "No, you didn't." And I said, "Then my only recollection about -him was he was a nonentity, just another applicant who was neither -outstanding or, I mean--inadequate." - -Mr. JENNER. He made no impression on you? - -Mr. ADAMS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of records are kept with respect to job -applicants, those who are seeking positions, and they are placed or not -placed, what kind of record would I expect to find if I looked? - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, there are several--one a Lindex strip is at the -receptionist which purportedly has a listing of all of the applicants -who are currently registered with our office. Then, for each applicant -there are one or more application cards covering a primary code, an -occupational code which is that code in which we feel he is best -qualified, the additional cards being for secondary codes for other -jobs for which he might be qualified for or which he may have -performed in the past, so that there would be one or more application -cards, a Lindex strip, and the counseling records if the individual had -been counseled. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, assuming Mrs. Latham assisted Lee Oswald in obtaining -a position, a record of some kind--some kind of a recordation of that -fact would be made? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, on the application--on the individual's application -card, the face gives essential information as to names, address, -telephone number, birthdate, height, weight, education, the job code to -which he has been assigned, the high school from which he graduated, -the college which he attended and/or which he graduated, special -skills which he may possess in the use of business machines, and any -hobbies which might be job oriented, such as skin diving and things of -that sort, and the back side shows the jobs the individual has held, -beginning with the most recent and going back to the most significant -job he has held. - -Inside the folded card, one-half of the upper half is for comments -concerning availability of public or private transportation, the -minimum salary the individual is willing to accept, any restrictions or -qualifications the individual may place on employment. - -The other half of the upper portion indicates whether or not the -individual has been counseled. It may include pertinent information -such as the individual has been under psychiatric care, has a Police -record, anything which might be necessary in discussing this individual -intelligently with an employer. - -The bottom half lists the referrals or attempted referrals of this -individual for employment. - -Each time an attempt is made to contact the individual, an entry will -be made indicating the date when the contact is attempted, the method, -that is, whether by telephone, by telephone message or by mail, the -date on which he was referred, if he was referred, or if he was not -referred, whether he refused the job or whether he was found not -qualified; if he was referred, whether or not he was hired; if he was a -claimant, whether or not--if he rejected the job--that information was -sent to the claims office indicating that he had rejected employment or -rejected an offer of employment, anything pertaining to this particular -job offer is shown on a given line or lines, as it might be. - -Mr. JENNER. And are they now in the possession of TEC, records of that -character relating to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. ADAMS. I don't know from my own knowledge, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would Mr. Sayre know that? - -Mr. ADAMS. It is my belief that these records are in the hands of the -FBI or Secret Service, but he would know. - -Mr. JENNER. Were photostatic copies made, do you know? - -Mr. ADAMS. That, I don't know, sir. Apparently, I did talk to him on -the phone several times, because the card indicates that I had done so -and I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall when you were interviewed by Mr. Odum -of the FBI on the 27th of November 1963? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time you appeared to have a recollection of a -telephone call from Oswald on October 8, in response to a message of -your own of October 7, 1963. Do you recall that incident? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I couldn't say that I positively do. If the record -says I did, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, I take it, that a record of the transaction was made? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If it occurred? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have no recollection independent of that record? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, sir--if I might clarify that, sir, by saying that in -the case of an applicant with whom one has repeated dealings, whether -good or bad, these would stick. Otherwise, one talks to anywhere to -10 to 30 applicants a day, day in and day out, personally and by -telephone and with the exception of those applicants with whom I have -had extensive dealings either because they are problem cases or because -they are really outstanding good applicants, I don't remember that. If -confronted by one, I could be able to say, "Yes; I have talked to that -man," but otherwise I couldn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You apparently indicated to Mr. Odum, a reference on your -part on October 8, to Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas, do you -recall referring him to the Solid State Electronics Co. on or about the -8th of October 1963? - -Mr. ADAMS. I can recall having had that order because it was unusual -in the sense that I had not dealt with an order of that type before -from a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts who wanted an -individual who had had some knowledge of electronics or electronics -parts. Presumably, if I referred to--Mr. Oswald, it was because his -military or civilian background indicated he had had training in this -field. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any more about that incident? - -Mr. ADAMS. No; I can't say I do, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the nature of the job was? - -Mr. ADAMS. As best I can recall, it was where--it was loosely what we -called a parts counterman. - -Mr. JENNER. Parts counterman? - -Mr. ADAMS. A sales clerk. - -Mr. JENNER. A sales clerk? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; in sales. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the salary was? - -Mr. ADAMS. It seems to me it was quite good for the Dallas area. I -would guess it was in the neighborhood of in excess of $75 a week, it -seems. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that that reference was made to Oswald then by -telephone rather than his coming into your office? - -Mr. ADAMS. My policy as a placement interviewer, sir, is this: If I -have once met an applicant and then there is not a long lapse until -such time as I have an opening to discuss with him, or on which to -refer him, I will refer him by telephone if I think he is otherwise -qualified. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his coming into the office the 8th or the 9th -of October? - -Mr. ADAMS. I couldn't honestly say that I do; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would this registration card have some entry in that -respect, if he came in? - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, possibly. The policy in our office is that each month -an individual should be contacted either by phone or in person. If a -person is contacted more than once, either by phone or in person, only -the initial date for that month is shown. It is repetitive and takes up -a lot of unnecessary space. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Burton-Dixie Co. awaken or refresh your recollection -in this connection? - -Mr. ADAMS. Only to the extent that they are one of the employers with -whom I have dealt. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes? - -Mr. ADAMS. And, in making these referrals, I have found in my short -time with the Commission that it is not too wise to be bound entirely -by the employer's stated requirements. I can best explain this by -saying that as recently as yesterday I referred a young man on an order -which I had had for a week and on which I had made prior referrals of -individuals who, in my opinion, were at least as well-qualified and -certainly made a better appearance and yet this last individual was -the man who was hired. So, when I first determined this, I decided -that I would not certainly make wholesale referrals without regard to -the employer's requirements, but on the other hand, in any case where -I thought the individual was such that the employer might see in him -something that I did not see, I wouldn't take a chance. I would refer -him if I felt he met any or many of the employer's basic requirements. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any incidents of any others in the agency who -sought to assist Oswald, of which you have any knowledge? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; subsequent to these incidents, I am aware that -other people in the Commission had talked to Mr. Oswald prior to -November 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. But what you have stated is the extent of your contact with -him? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, and am I correct, that he was not employed or -hired by the Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas on your reference? - -Mr. ADAMS. To the best of my knowledge he was not hired on any of the -jobs to which I referred him. - -Mr. JENNER. And does the name Trans-Texas stimulate your recollection -as to any possible reference? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November, -Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Roy? - -Mr. ADAMS. He is not the station manager, he is the--I really don't -know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are -more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. -Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and -he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are -called by the airline industry--we call them baggage, cargo handlers, -and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out -those who met the qualifications. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out? - -Mr. ADAMS. If the record indicates, he was. - -Mr. JENNER. But here again you have no recollection beyond what the -record shows? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to salary, for example, as -compared with that that you mentioned--you mentioned some kind of a -figure, with respect to Solid State Electronics Co? - -Mr. ADAMS. I think that the going rate of Trans-Texas then was $210 a -month plus overtime. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald report on that reference? - -Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that he -did not, and that he became employed by the Texas State Book Depository -on the 16th of October 1963? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The incident to which you refer occurred the latter part of -October or the first part of November, that is with Trans-Texas? - -Mr. ADAMS. As best I recall it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to talk to Mr. Sayre--what is the telephone -number over there? - -Mr. ADAMS. It is Riverside 7-2071. - -The unfortunate thing about it, as I said, about being a placement -interviewer is that unless there is something outstanding about the -individual or something appears in the record it is just another -applicant. - -Mr. JENNER. You interview a good many people every day, day after day, -and unless something strikes you out of the ordinary with respect to a -particular job applicant or unemployed person, that makes it stand out -in your mind, you are unable to sort out or recall specifically? - -Mr. ADAMS. Right. I could rattle off the names of half a dozen -applicants who are ex-convicts, alcoholics, or either recovered from -psychiatric treatment or who are presently undergoing psychiatric -treatment, or when I look at their record I see consistent "No hire" or -"Failed to accept employment," but these people will stick with me, but -if I recall, Mr. Oswald had not been registered too long or, beginning -with my contact--my contact with him renewed his relationship with our -placement office. In other words, as I try to visualize his card, I -don't see a whole card full of entries--just a few up at the top. - -Mr. JENNER. There is one card for each job applicant? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; at least. - -Mr. JENNER. And if he has been back and forth a couple, of times there -might be more than one card? - -Mr. ADAMS. If he was coded. For instance, suppose he said, "I have been -a truck driver for 2 years." I will say, "Fine, you get an additional -code for truck driving," which is a 7 code, and this card, we would -either send with him to the industrial office for placing in their -files, or we would send it--he might say, "I will accept labor work," -and we would say, "Fine, we will send a card up to Forrest Avenue or -to Irving," whichever is the closest to where he lives or to Dallas -West. - -Or, he might say, "I have a degree in Economics," and we would say, -"Good, we will give you an "0" code and send it upstairs to the -professional office." So, conceivably, depending on the individual, he -could have a half a dozen cards. - -In addition, if he had been job counseled, they would have a counseling -record. - -Fortunately, or unfortunately, the employment commission, the Texas -Employment Commission, and presumably, the other 49 states, is not -in position to do any checking on people. The only way we get any -information, derogatory information, is either through the individual's -disclosing it voluntarily, or through an employer saying, "I sent this -man down for a truth verification test, and he busted it," and then we -would say, "Would you mind telling us what the information was, so that -we may not use this against the individual and try to find out what his -problem is and see if we can't help him with it." He might say, "No; I -don't care to do that," and then we would say, "Does it involve felony -or is it a matter of personality, or what?" And they might say, "There -is something odd about his personality," and we would say, "Thank you." - -This is the only way we get any information and, of course, it -sometimes backfires unfortunately. Employers will assume mistakenly -that anybody we send is as pure as the driven snow, and they may or may -not be. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think of anything else at this time that might be -helpful to the Commission in this connection--what I am anxious to get -is the history of this man at the Texas Employment Commission. - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; I believe Mrs. Helen Cunningham counseled him. I -believed she counseled Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Commission? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes. Mr. Sayre is also her boss. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can get both of them over here this afternoon and -take their deposition. - -Mr. ADAMS. It is my personal opinion that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald is -more to be pitied than censored, because if she had only taken the kid -to the psychiatrist when they asked her to--of course, this might still -have happened, but then again it might not. - -Mr. JENNER. And, of course, in a situation like this, Mr. Adams, there -are all kinds of "ifs": if somebody had done this, if only this had -been done. - -Mr. ADAMS. Well, even the little contact that I had with him, I -thought--was there something there I should have noticed and if I start -letting this get on my back, I will start examining every applicant who -comes in--he may be a potential fiend, "I'll have to watch you," and -pretty soon I'll be talking to myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are always subject to the accusation of being a -meddler. It is pretty hard to say just where the scope of your probing -should go--a reasonable amount of probing should go and where you have -to hold down the gate. - -Mr. ADAMS. The first I knew about it was when it came out in the paper -that he had been a claimant. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; for unemployment compensation? - -Mr. ADAMS. Right, from this district or Fort Worth, I don't know which -one exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have an office over in Fort Worth? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an office similar to this one, that is, that -aids persons to obtain employment? - -Mr. ADAMS. Yes; the State is divided into districts. The Dallas -district is unique in that it encompasses only Dallas County. Out in -West Texas, I guess, the districts encompass maybe 20 or 30 counties. - -Mr. JENNER. But Fort Worth's district--who is the general manager there? - -Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir. I have heard his name, but I can't recall -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the telephone number? - -Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I sure don't. Whenever we have dealings with them -at my level it is simply paperwork. You send a notice to them that we -have these jobs available and employers ask us to start signing out -from Dallas to find--to try to find someone, we'll say, in a 50-mile -radius, or in a 100-mile radius, as the case may be--it's all done by -paper, you see. I'm sure Mr. Sayre would know the people to contact -with them. - -Whenever we do uncover any derogatory information, well, anything -which leads us to believe that the applicant is not--does not appear -to be the type of person that we should refer, we have no way--we are -precluded from making any written comment. I would just say, "See Adams -before it is turned over." - -Mr. JENNER. And that means if an occasion arises to refer this man -or he makes an inquiry subsequently, then anybody reading the card -realizes that there might be something derogatory or at least something -special, and they should come to you and talk to you about it? - -Mr. ADAMS. That's right; for instance, an employer will report that -he thinks an individual is a sex deviate or something of that sort. -Now, in the naivete of the Texas Employment Commission, I have made -an entry, "Employer reports that this individual appears to have -undesirable traits of character," and they say, "Oh, you can't put that -in." - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(At this point Counsel Jenner conversed by telephone to Mr. Sayre of -the Texas Employment office.) - -Mr. JENNER. He said he turned over those records to the district office -and he is going to run them down for me this afternoon and call me back. - -Mr. ADAMS. I remember reading the paper that on account of his having -applied for unemployment compensation, he made a trip to Corpus and -then to Mexico and came back--it was none of my business and I never -did pursue it with the Commission, but if he had nothing to draw on, he -would certainly have applied for his unemployment compensation and it -would have been recorded, whether here, Corpus Christi, or Fort Worth -or where--the Lord only knows--I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all that occurs to me, sir, and I appreciate your -coming in and your help. - -Mr. ADAMS. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you people think you are not more helpful, -to use your expression, when, as a fact you are. - -Mr. ADAMS. I hope so. - -Mr. JENNER. It's hard to tell from your vantage point whether you are -or aren't, but the fact you appear here and tell us what you know is -always helpful. I appreciate it very much. - -Mr. ADAMS. I know it is like the intelligence business in the service, -you take all the little pieces and piece them together, and you make a -picture. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition and to sign it, if -you see fit, and you also have the right to waive that privilege if you -wish. - -Mr. ADAMS. I would like to see it and I will sign it. - -Mr. JENNER. We will have it ready toward the end of this week or early -next week, and if you will call the U.S. attorney, Barefoot Sanders, he -will know whether it is ready for you to read and sign. Thank you very -much, sir. - -Mr. ADAMS. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DONALD E. BROOKS - -The testimony of Donald E. Brooks was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. David W. Belin, -Albert B. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, Mr. Brooks. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. BROOKS. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Brooks, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the -legal staff of the Warren Commission. - -The Warren Commission was appointed pursuant to Joint Resolution 137, -which authorizes the Commission to investigate the circumstances -surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald -Kennedy, on November 22, 1963, and then President Johnson, pursuant to -that resolution and Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and -outlined its powers and duties and authorities. - -We have a legal staff authorized by the Commission to come here, and -other places in the nation, and make inquiry of persons who had some -direct connection, or indirect, or whatnot, with the events, and also -those who did, or might have had, some contact with one Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the performance of their official duties or otherwise, -which we think might be relevant or pertinent to the inquiry we are -making. It is my understanding that you had such a contact. Do you -reside here in Dallas? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your address? - -Mr. BROOKS. 2836 Dyer. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native Texan? - -Mr. BROOKS. No; I was born in Wichita, Kans. - -Mr. JENNER. You came here when? - -Mr. BROOKS. When I was about 4 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. But since, you have been a resident in and about Dallas? - -Mr. BROOKS. I have been a resident of Dallas since 1935. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a married man? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Have a family? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I have two children. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, profession, and with -whom are you associated? - -Mr. BROOKS. Associated with the Texas Employment Commission, and I am -an employment counselor. - -Mr. JENNER. Employment counselor? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you held that position? - -Mr. BROOKS. About a year. It will be 2 years in July, actually, in this -position. - -Mr. JENNER. So you became one in July of 1962? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At the Dallas office? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I have been in the Dallas office. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you function in any particular division of the Dallas -office of the Texas Employment Commission? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; counseling department in the industrial office. - -Mr. JENNER. In the industrial office? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now there are counseling departments, are there not, and -divisions or offices other than the industrial? - -Mr. BROOKS. There are people assigned to be employment counselors in -the other offices. - -Mr. JENNER. In the course of that employment, did the occasion arise in -which you met officially a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; he was referred to me by the placement division. - -Mr. JENNER. Now give us the circumstances, first, so that someone -reading the transcript will be able to comprehend the circumstances -under which this young man was referred to you. - -Mr. BROOKS. As I remember it, he was referred to me because he had -shown reluctance to accept employment in the industrial field, and -therefore, this is one of the reasons they send a man to the counseling -division, and this is how he came to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Came to your division? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then that the Texas Employment Commission--let's -use a hypothetical now at the moment: Assume there has been an -applicant for employment. There appear to be positions open in the -industrial field. The applicant indicates some reluctance to accept, -to seek, at least, employment in the industrial field, but mentions -preference for some other field. The fact that there is a reference to -you does not necessarily mean, does it, that the applicant is one who -is inclined to "gold brick" and is not really looking for a job? - -Mr. BROOKS. Nothing in conference like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what the industrial field is? - -Mr. BROOKS. The industrial field, of course, is primarily jobs with -factories, actually. That includes skilled and semiskilled jobs, and -also in our industrial office, truck driving and service station work -is also included in this field. But primarily it is an office where the -factory employer calls in for factory laborers, whether they be skilled -or unskilled. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now, yesterday Mr. Adams, Mr. Statman, and Mrs. -Cunningham provided some records from the Texas Employment Commission, -and I notice that on one of them appears your name, Don Brooks, and -that is what is referred to generally as an applicant card. - -Mr. BROOKS. E-13. - -Mr. JENNER. E-13 (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), and that the other -witnesses generally refer to that as an E-13 card? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you please examine that E-13 card, particularly -the inside face which bears your signature. By the way, does that bear -your signature? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; that is my signature. - -Mr. JENNER. It says interviewer. Where it says interviewer, there is a -signature on the card opposite the word interviewer, and that signature -in longhand is Don Brooks, and that is the witness' signature. There -appears below that signature, the word "Cunningham." She was in -yesterday. That is a fellow counselor, also? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; in the clerical and professional office. - -Mr. JENNER. Professional and clerical? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you explain to us the coincidence of each of you having -signed that form? - -Mr. BROOKS. Probably because this card was transferred over to the -other office, actually. - -Mr. JENNER. From your office back over to Mrs. Cunningham? - -Mr. BROOKS. And she signed below because--I wouldn't swear to this but -evidently she made some more comments in here. - -Mr. JENNER. When an interview is held, do you interviewers make -notations on this card? - -Mr. BROOKS. What sort of notations? - -Mr. JENNER. The sort of notations that appear on the card now? - -Mr. BROOKS. Sure. We give applicant's characteristics usually, and then -if there is any special information, we put it in on condition that it -might affect employment. - -Mr. JENNER. Is any of that writing that appears above your signature -yours? - -Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I can't see any of my writing. - -Mr. JENNER. Now examine--examining the bottom half of that application -(Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), is there any writing of yours on it? - -Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I don't recognize any of my writing on this at -all in this section, where we send them out on the job. This is where -usually the placement interviewer sends them on. - -Mr. JENNER. You are not a placement interviewer? - -Mr. BROOKS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a counselor. So that on the inside of the card when -folded, there is nothing in your handwriting on that card other than -your signature, is that correct? - -Mr. BROOKS. That is all I see, sir. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you turn the exhibit over. Would that be the top -portion when folded that you are now looking at? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is the face. - -Mr. JENNER. Now on the face, which is the bottom half of the exhibit, -is there any handwriting of yours? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I see some. Looks like up in the left corner: I -see high school, 8 years in the area. Service dates also. Also a date -over here, 10-9-62. - -Mr. JENNER. 10-9-62? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that indicate? - -Mr. BROOKS. That means that he was in on that date, October 9, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you interviewed him? - -Mr. BROOKS. Me; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. These notations that you have now identified, was that -information he furnished you on that occasion? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is usually the primary interview. First day, -actually. - -Mr. JENNER. Now does this refresh your recollection as to what occurred -after the interview of October 9, as to whether you had further contact -with him, for example? - -Mr. BROOKS. This evidently--I wouldn't want to swear to this. - -Mr. JENNER. You aren't certain? Go ahead, but you say you aren't -certain? - -Mr. BROOKS. I know that he was referred to me, and that is all. I was -the one that changed his occupation code. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that? - -Mr. BROOKS. We assign an occupational code to our applicants, and these -occupational codes refer to specific work, whether it is a trainee job -or a semiskilled job or skilled job. And he had a previous code, I -don't know what it is now, but this 1-X4.9. - -Mr. JENNER. Now that is written in whose handwriting? - -Mr. BROOKS. That is not my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. That looks like Mrs. Cunningham's. I think I can tell you -that is Mrs. Cunningham's writing. That was an assignment of code made -by whom? - -Mr. BROOKS. I don't recognize her number. It was made by someone else -other than me, actually. I had thought I gave him a code number but -that is not my handwriting there. I am not sure about what code, I know -I put him in the other office, which was our clerical. - -Mr. JENNER. After interviewing him you determined he should be -classified in the clerical? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; because he was interested. - -Mr. JENNER. And not classified in the industrial division? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this was because of interests, primarily? - -Mr. JENNER. Whose interests, his? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; his interests. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you determine his interests after you had examined -him and your judgment as to where best he might be able to obtain -employment, having in mind those interests? - -Mr. BROOKS. Was not in the industrial office; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express an aversion to factory work? - -Mr. BROOKS. I can't tell you the words, but I got this general -impression, as far as I remember; yes, sir; and he did not want to -do factory work. Of course, we try to place an individual where he -wants--will be exposed to his job. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of who put on that same side -of the folded card, the face, "Lee Oswald, 2515 West Fifth Street, -Irving, Tex."? - -Mr. BROOKS. Right here, this Lee Oswald is, as far as I can tell, -my handwriting, his name. 2515 West Fifth Street is someone else's -handwriting. Just like Irving, Tex. Blackburn 3-1628 is somebody else's -handwriting. 433-54-3937. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the social security number? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; as far as I can determine. This carbon makes it -a little difficult. And the service date, and this where it says -none, referring to driver's license. And car, no. Those two are my -handwriting, I am sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I stop you there. The word "none," opposite or to the -left of the word, "license," before which there also appears a square, -directing your attention to that, is that "none," in your handwriting? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that signify? - -Mr. BROOKS. That he didn't have a driver's license. - -Mr. JENNER. That he didn't have a driver's license? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a square that you make normally? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. This is of importance especially in the industrial -office because a lot of times a person working in a factory office -might be required to sub in as perhaps a driver of machinery, and we -always ask--pay attention to this, not because of Texas, but because of -commercial operator's license. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me inquire of you a little further on that. Does your -inquiry go beyond asking whether he has a driver's license? That is, do -you go on and ask whether he is able to operate a motor vehicle? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. Well, not necessarily. I mean, if he doesn't have -a driver's license, he is not supposed to be driving, actually. - -Mr. JENNER. But he could get one the next day, couldn't he? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. Sometimes I have gone further and asked, are you able -to drive a car. I have done this on occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of whether you did that on -this occasion? - -Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I might have and I might not have. I wouldn't want -to swear that I did either one. - -Mr. JENNER. But your entry does indicate for certain that he did not -have a driver's license, and you made inquiry on that subject? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go on. Maybe there is something else that you -have written there to stimulate me to ask you something. - -Mr. BROOKS. We have not covered my handwriting. Unfortunately, my -handwriting is pretty easy to see. I write big. Now this--I am on the -back of the card now. Now this Leslie Welding Co. in Dallas, 4 months, -10-62, $1.25 an hour, sheet metal worker, mild ventilators, is in my -handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that something he told you? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, was this form E-13, made up in your office or -made up in some other office? - -Mr. BROOKS. The original must have been made up in my office. That is -usually the procedure, actually. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you made inquiry of the Fort Worth -office as to whether they had what you call this ATB? - -Mr. BROOKS. This is something--oh, you mean, test records? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I didn't, I am sure of this. The other office, -Mrs. Cunningham, might have, but I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a Mrs. Louise Latham? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. She works for the commission. She works in C&S. I am -not too familiar. I believe she is a placement interviewer. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice on the bottom below your signature the last two -lines appear the initials RLA. Is that probably Mr. Adams, the RLA? - -Mr. BROOKS. It might be and might not be. I am not too familiar with -the person. I know who is over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about this young man? - -Mr. BROOKS. No; I wouldn't want to say. The only thing I recall vaguely -now--at the time when I was asked, I was surprised that I had taken -his application. I had not remembered it at the time, actually. I -had vaguely remembered the name Oswald, but then--when I saw about -it, I remembered that vaguely he was somebody referred to me from -the placement, actually, and he didn't want, evidently did not want -industrial work and he had an interest in clerical, and I gave him a -clerical code, although the code number is not in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the classification you gave him? - -Mr. BROOKS. I think that is the one I gave him. I am not certain, but I -think that is the one I gave him; yes. I mean, to say anything further, -I would have to perhaps look in the E-41. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting are the entries appearing on the -back of the card in the squares relating to summary of other work -experience. Shoe salesman, 4 months, New Orleans, La. General office -work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961. - -Mr. BROOKS. This is my handwriting. Shoe salesman, 4 months, Louisiana, -central office. General--excuse me, 1 year, New Orleans, 1961. That is -my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he supply that information? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; probably on the initial interview. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall conversing with him or going back into his -history when he was in the service or was married and where he had been? - -Mr. BROOKS. I would not want to say if I did. I usually do. But, of -course, I inquired evidently about the service or I have--I wouldn't -have put the service date. - -Mr. JENNER. Those service dates, where are they? - -Mr. BROOKS. They are on the front of the card here; right here. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Under the heading "Entry on Active Service," -October 23, 1956. "Released from Active Service," September 11, 1959. - -But you do recall, or you wouldn't have made the entry "General office -work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961"? - -Mr. BROOKS. That is my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. That was made in the usual regular course of your business -and in having an interview with this man? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is right. I put those dates there. - -Mr. JENNER. The back of the card, which is Exhibit E-13 (Cunningham -Exhibit No. 1), when we look at that address, that is, Lee Oswald, 2515 -West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., that appears to have been written over -something that had been erased first. - -Mr. BROOKS. This is probably due to the fact that he probably moved. - -Mr. JENNER. Moved? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. We have to keep, we try to keep up our address -dates as current as possible, because if we don't, there was no way to -get in contact with the applicant. - -Mr. JENNER. I see another entry of 10-9-62, and then Mrs. Cunningham of -10-10-62, and then an entry or series of entries in October 1963. - -Would I be correct in supposing that when you interviewed him on the -9th of October 1962, and put in whatever address he had at that time, -and then later on in October 1963, when he was again interviewed, he -had a new address, and the old address was erased and the new address -put in? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is the way it usually happens. - -Mr. JENNER. I will have to get the original to bring out that latent -address. Mr. Brooks, you have been very helpful to us. - -Mr. BROOKS. I wish I could remember more, actually. - -Mr. JENNER. You have added to our fund of knowledge, so don't you be -regretful. There are one or two things here that neither Mr. Statman -nor Mr. Adams nor Mrs. Cunningham could enlighten us about and you have -done so, so you have been helpful and I appreciate it. - -I know you are anxious to be more helpful as we all are, but all we can -do is get the basic facts. - -Mr. BROOKS. I want to be certain if I say something. But I wish I could -remember more about the applicant Oswald, himself, but it is hard to -do, actually. - -I was surprised actually at the time, of course, when they had told -me I had taken his application. Actually, I didn't remember it at the -time, but I thought about it. - -And the Marine Corps probably brought in back a little, and like -everyone else, I read the papers a lot. - -But I can't remember anything specific about him, just general things. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Brooks, you have a right to read over your -deposition if you so desire. And you have a right to sign it if you so -desire. And you also have a right to waive that if you wish. It is your -choice, one way or the other. If you desire to read it and sign it---- - -Mr. BROOKS. Did you want me to sign it? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, it would be more convenient for -us to have the reporter certify the accuracy in transcribing and just -send it to Washington so we don't have to go to the trouble of calling -you in and asking you to read it, but it is your option. - -Mr. BROOKS. No; if you don't want me to, I won't. - -Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon be relieved of it, but I don't want to -press you on it. - -Mr. BROOKS. To the best of my knowledge, that is all I remember. I -could have been confused about some issues, but I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you waive the signing of the -deposition? - -Mr. BROOKS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything hereafter, there will be members -of the legal staff here next week, and if they are not, call Barefoot -Sanders and he will relay the information to us. Thanks for coming -over. We appreciate it. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF IRVING STATMAN - -The testimony of Irving Statman was taken at 4:20 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Statman, would you rise and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that in the deposition you are about to give, you -will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. STATMAN. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the Warren -Commission. The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution to -provide a body to investigate the assassination of our late President, -John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and pursuant to that legislation, the -President, Lyndon B. Johnson, appointed the Commission under Executive -Order 11130, and we of the staff are enjoined by the Commission -and the Commission itself to inquire into all the circumstances, -especially that we find pertinent data, regarding Lee Harvey Oswald, to -investigate his life and a good many people, you included, either in an -official capacity or friends with other people who touched his life in -some fashion or other. - -Your employment is what? - -Mr. STATMAN. The assistant district director of the Dallas district of -the Texas Employment Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. And just tell us generally what your duties are in that -respect? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, we have the unemployment compensation of this and -the placement office, and research and statistical branch, and an -office in Garland and in Grand Prairie. They are separate entities and -it is my duty to assist the district director in any functions there -are, and to assist in any problems that there are in any of the offices. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any office of the Commission in Fort Worth? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. We are the Dallas district. Now, also, he was -registered in the Fort Worth district too. - -Mr. JENNER. He was? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; but our connection with him was in actually three -capacities--number one, as an applicant for a job, and as an applicant -for a job, we had him counseled. In other words, if there are any -reasons to believe that employment might be difficult for a person to -obtain due to, maybe inexperience or due to change in occupation or -some problem, we have a counseling setup that will counsel this person -to the point where we feel we can help place him. - -In other words, now, we are not equipped to give him psychological -counseling or give him home therapy. Our job is placement counseling -and we are trying to counsel them to the point where we can facilitate -placing him onto a job and counseling duties then are through. - -He was also referred to the counselor due to some apparent counseling -needs, and he also filed a claim for unemployment insurance, so those -are the three areas that he touched in the Dallas district. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned of those three areas--his touching those areas -from books, records and documents of the Commission? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, that's true. When this FBI man came in, and I can't -think of his name--I've got his card, but I probably cleaned my nails -with it, but anyway, he came in and asked for a copy of, or the actual -documents, and we told him that we had a certain amount of documents -here and there were others in Austin, due to that interstate claim -situation, and so we gave him all of our records, and also he contacted -an FBI agent in Austin, and our Austin State office gave him some -records. - -Now, in preparing these records, then, I saw the documents that we had -on him. Now, what I have with me here is a copy of his application card. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I describe that on the record first? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; I think it is an E-13, let me make sure what this -number is, and--it is his application card. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, Mr. Statman has handed me a form -entitled--what? - -Mr. STATMAN. It's an E-13--it's an E-13 application. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have handed me two sheets. - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, this represents the front. - -Mr. JENNER. The top sheet I have is the front of the card and the -second sheet is the inside or reverse side? - -Mr. STATMAN. No; the inside--this is a folded affair and, let me me -fold it for you properly. In other words, this is the way the card -would look. - -Mr. JENNER. It's a foldover card. - -Mr. STATMAN. Right--like this. Now, this is an exact replica. - -Mr. JENNER. It is letter size when opened fully, and it is folded in -half. - -The bottom of the top sheet reads, "Application card E-13" (1261) and -for purposes of identification of the record what would be the back of -the card when folded, but which is the top of the sheet as I hold it -in my hand, it reads, "Describe your longest and most important jobs, -including Military Service, beginning with your most recent job." - -The second sheet which would form the reverse side of the card, -portions of which I have read and which in turn would be the inside -of the card when folded, has no form number on it, but it reads at -the top, "Do not write below this line," and then in the next line in -printing. "Conditions affecting employment," in the left-hand side, and -"Handicap description," on the right-hand side. - -Mr. STATMAN. Do you want me to interpret on that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. [The Exhibit is Cunningham Exhibit No. 1.] Now, -this card--I will turn it now back to the front or top of the folded -card. Will you state for the record what this is and does it relate to -Lee Oswald, first? - -Mr. STATMAN. This is his application card. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, folding it in half, so that I understand it, as -folded in half--what now is facing us with the form number at the -bottom, would be top of the folded card. [The original card, of which -Cunningham Exhibit No. 1 is a copy, is in evidence as Cunningham -Exhibit No. 1-A.] - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That means that Lee Oswald had a contact with the Texas -Employment Commission and this is a record made. - -Mr. STATMAN. On 10-9-62. This card indicates that he came in. - -Mr. JENNER. That he came in on the 9th of October 1962? - -Mr. STATMAN. That was his first contact with us. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is done, then, in the normal course of this sort -of thing, when an applicant comes in for the first time? - -Mr. STATMAN. The first is--this card is filled out, and the number one -thing is to get the pertinent facts, and do you want me to give what we -have on him? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STATMAN. We have his name and his address. - -Mr. JENNER. And what address is that? - -Mr. STATMAN. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and a telephone -number that indicates an Irving number--BL-3-1628, social security -number was given--433-54-3937. Now, under this is his military service -to ascertain if he is a veteran, because veterans get preference. In -other words, I don't know if you need to know that, but that pink card -indicates a veteran, and by law we are to give veterans preference, and -the information here is to again ascertain if he is to get veterans -preference. In this he listed the entry of his service date--10-23-56, -and he was released from active service 9-11-59. - -Then, underneath--another category, "If needed for work, do you have--" -and it indicates "License, trucks, uniforms, car, tools," and he stated -that he had none of these. In other words, some companies before they -will hire you, like a mechanic has to have his own tools and some don't. - -Mr. JENNER. He answered he had none of those; is that correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes--none. Now, he gave his educational background--do you -want to go into that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STATMAN. He stated that he went to Arlington Heights, Fort Worth, 2 -years, 5/56 and in that---- - -Mr. JENNER. What is 5/56? - -Mr. STATMAN. Apparently, that is when he left school--I don't know--I'm -guessing at that. - -Mr. JENNER. But that card does indicate that he told the interviewing -official of the Commission that he attended Arlington Heights High -School in Fort Worth for 2 years, terminating in May 1956. - -Mr. STATMAN. I think you can figure out, if that would be the -start--let me see--in 1956, how old would he have been--he would have -been 17 years old, so it seems more plausible that he left in 1956 than -he started, wouldn't it to you? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STATMAN. All right. He indicated courses that he took--2 years -English, 1 year general math, 1 year algebra, 1 year general science. - -Now, he indicates he has gotten a high school equivalency. That could -have been obtained either through taking a G.E.D.---- - -Mr. JENNER. What is that? - -Mr. STATMAN. General education--something--anyway, you can take a test -here and they will give you what is know as a high school equivalency, -or he might have obtained that in the Army or in the Marine Corps, but -this is tantamount to having a high school education without completing -the 4 years. - -Mr. JENNER. But indicating he did not complete 4 years? - -Mr. STATMAN. Not 4 years formal education. He is, as the name -indicates, it is an equivalent--it's a certification that the man has -an equivalency of a high school education. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STATMAN. Then, he had 2-1/2 months of electronic fundamentals, -2-1/2 months radar operator. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he have some dates? - -Mr. STATMAN. That's 1957--that was prior to when he was in the Marine -Corps. Now, I can't tell you whether those dates run concurrently or -not. - -He might have had a training first and then the radar operation next. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, in whose handwriting or hand printing is that -document? - -Mr. STATMAN. I can't be sure--some of these are self applicants. In -other words, they take it themselves, and others are prepared by the -interviewer. Now, this Don Brooks could tell you. Here is his signature. - -Mr. JENNER. Here is whose signature? - -Mr. STATMAN. Lee Harvey Oswald's. This is on a different document. - -Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a minute. - -Mr. STATMAN. I would guess that Don Brooks did this, because it is -fairly consistent, I mean, you don't see a change of handwriting. -Usually the applicant, if he is making the application will show a -different handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Don Brooks still employed by the Commission? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. Usually, if the applicant makes the application and -the interviewer completes it, you can see a change in the handwritings -and you don't here. Again, I am guessing that this was prepared by Don -Brooks. - -Now, up on the top is identifying information. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this is up on top of the exhibit as folded in half? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes, adjacent to the identifying information--there is a -block--marital status, widow, single, and divorced, and he has checked -"Marital status." Underneath that is a block for number of dependents, -and he has indicated that he has two dependents. - -Mr. JENNER. That would indicate a wife and child? - -Mr. STATMAN. Not necessarily--it would just indicate he has two -dependents. I couldn't say he had a wife and child--knowing a little -bit about him you could say that. - -Birthday 10-15-39. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that 10-15 or 10-18-39? - -Mr. STATMAN. I'm sorry, you are right, it is 10-18-39. Height 5 feet 9 -inches, weight, 150 pounds, education--he has listed high school with -an asterisk, and the asterisk indicates he has a high school equivalent -as opposed to 4 years formal education. - -Now, in the block showing his test results, which refer to this general -aptitude test battery and which I have a document on that, and if you -want to wait, we will come to that later. - -Mr. JENNER. I do want to go into it and we will hold that off. - -Mr. STATMAN. That indicates--no, let's do go into this. In the general -aptitude battery--you have certain cutoff scores, and these scores -indicate a propensity or an aptitude in the certain occupational areas, -which are totaled by numbers. - -Now, the aptitudes that he has proficiency in or propensity in has been -indicated in the test results. - -Mr. JENNER. And those in turn you will discuss in connection with -another document? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, you've got Helen Cunningham, who is a counselor and -she can give you a lot better information on that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, on the front in the date column--we do not always -indicate when an individual is in, only when we see his card might -become inactive, we will put it, so this doesn't necessarily mean that -these are the only times he has been in, but this does indicate, as we -previously stated, that he originally came in 10-9-62, he was in on -10-10-62, and he was in on 4-8-63, he was in on 4-12-63, he was in on -10-3-63. This R.I. indicates a reinterview. That means that he has been -previously registered and we are reinterviewing him to bring his card -up to date. - -Mr. JENNER. And the R.I. appears to the left of the entry--October 8, -1963; correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir. - -Now, there is just one more bit of information on this. Is your wife -employed--and he indicated "no". - -Now, we are turning this document on the back. - -Mr. JENNER. That is--it would be the back when folded? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, this is the information on the back--this is -the job history, the chronological job history, including military -service, and we are starting chronologically backwards, with the latest -job first. - -On this is indicated that he worked for Leslie Welding Co., length of -job--4 months; date ended--10/62; rate of pay, $1.25; the duties--he -has sheet metal works, and I think it says, "Made ventilators and cut -sheet metal." - -Mr. JENNER. That's correct. - -Mr. STATMAN. Okay. The next job chronologically was [reading] the -William B. Rilly Co. Do you want that address? - -Mr. JENNER. If you please. - -Mr. STATMAN (reading). 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La. This Rilly -is R-i-l-l-y (spelling), William B. Rilly, and this was typographical -and that was the nature of the business; length of job--4 months; date -ended--7/63; rate of pay--$1.50. - -As far as job descriptions, he just said "Photography." - -Now, the reason for leaving on both of these jobs was, "laid off." - -Then, he gives the U.S. Marine Corps, radar--April--2 years--1959. That -was his discharge. - -Then, also, we have a summary of other work history. But this is a work -history that might be pertinent, but he hasn't spent too much time on. - -Let's go back up on the fold, under "identifying information," and -there is an occupational title and a code. The occupational title -listed, "Routine clerical work." The code is 1X49. - -This "X" indicates that he has not had any experience, and this type -of work is an entry work. In other words, it is work that he might be -interested in and proficient in if he could get training in it. In -other words, they deemed that he was not really qualified for anything, -and when you have somebody without any apparent qualifications you try -to determine some sort of entry job. - -Mr. JENNER. Therefore, I conclude--do I correctly--that from this, -the interviewer concluded this man had no particular skills or -qualifications. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; this interviewer ascertained that this individual did -not have a definitive type occupation, so he was sent to the counselor -and after the counselor counseled and tested Oswald, then it was -ascertained that this area of work would probably be the most conducive -for him. - -You see, that's why he was sent to the counselor, because the -interviewer could not make a definitive description or a judgment on -his work. That's where our counselor comes in. - -Now, we are on the back. Under "miscellaneous" we had--shoe salesman, -4 months, New Orleans, La.; general office work--1 year, New Orleans, -La., 1961. - -That concludes the information on the back. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we turn to the inside. - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. On the inside are his "conditions affecting -employment?" That would be anything that in any way could, as the -statement says, affect employment adversely or benignly. On this is -first listed, "Bus transportation." It indicates that if a job required -a car, he couldn't go. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I am interested in that--that is a normal inquiry -made, is it, of persons seeking employment? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; because there are certain geographical areas in -Dallas that are not accessible by bus transportation, so when we get -an order in this area we know that the applicant has to have his own -transportation or he wouldn't be readily available for the job. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it mean not only that he does not have an automobile -to drive, but that he is unable to drive one, even if one is furnished? - -Mr. STATMAN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It means only that he does not have that type of -transportation available? - -Mr. STATMAN. No; this bus transportation means only that in the event -that he would get a job, he would have to get to the job by bus -transportation. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STATMAN. There is no indication that he can't get a car at a later -date? - -Mr. JENNER. There is no indication by that in what I am interested, of -whether he is able or not able to drive an automobile. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; it just describes the motor transportation that he -would have to employ in commuting to his work. - -Now, the next remark is "Outstanding verbal and clerical work." Now, -that was taken off of the G.A.T.B., which we will get into in a minute. - -In other words, it indicated that he had a great aptitude for -vocabulary and also for clerical type work. This is ascertained off of -his tests. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STATMAN. The next is "financial position necessitates immediate -employment." - -In other words, that would indicate that even though he might be -qualified for a certain level of work, financially exigencies would -force him into taking the first thing that came along. - -Mr. JENNER. The important thing then was to get a job right away? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And after he has gotten it, he might be able to entertain -getting some other job? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right--in other words, I might be a civil engineer, but -I've just come into town and I will wash dishes until I can get enough -money to get my immediate needs taken care of so I can hunt for a job. - -Underneath here, "Brother, junior executive, Acme Brick Co.; -brother--Staff Sergeant, Air Force," and the initials of the -interviewer that talked to him--it is 10-10-62 and it has H.P.C., which -is Helen P. Cunningham. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the lady I am about to interview? - -Mr. STATMAN. That's right. Now, as I say, this document was prepared by -two people, by Don Brooks, acting as the initial application taker, and -by Helen Cunningham in her capacity as a counselor. - -"Applicant's characteristics," this is just a word picture of the -interviewer's or counselor's idea on this applicant. We use that -in order to, when we are looking through to call in somebody for -jobs, you can kind get an idea of what impression they have made on -our personnel. Now, their impression was "well groomed and business -suit"--something. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it reads, "Well groomed and spoken, business suit, -alert replies--expressed self extremely well." - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, I don't know; it's either Don Brook's or Helen -Cunningham's, so Helen can verify that. Now, the lower half of this -inside card indicates any placement action we have taken with this -person. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, we referred him on 10/10 to Harrel Huntington--I -can't read this. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me give it a try--H-a-r-r-e-l [spelling] and -H-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n [spelling]. - -Mr. STATMAN. You are better at that; you must have had hieroglyphics in -school. The job was a messenger job. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it looks like they are architects--that Harrel and -Harrington--it looks like Exchange "Exch"; is that correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. That's probably where the job was--at Exchange Park, -the job was messenger at $1.50 an hour, and no indication of what -disposition was made. They should have posted probably "not hired" in -there and then they called him in about a job for Dallas Transit as -messenger and no referral was offered. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean? - -Mr. STATMAN. That means that after he got there, either the job was -filled or they decided that maybe he wasn't qualified for it. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that? - -Mr. STATMAN. He was called in 10-26-62 by telephone message, so -apparently they talked to him on the phone and decided not to refer -him. Then a call-in card was sent to him--this was a message card by -mail 5-3-63. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be May 3, 1963? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. Now, he didn't respond to this, so we issued an E-19, -which inactivated his card. In other words, after 3 working days, if he -doesn't respond, we deem this person not available. Then, a telephone -message on 10-7-63 was sent and then on 10-8-63 he was referred to -Solid State Electronics. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it indicate the kind of job? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; as a sales clerk and it paid $350 a month and he -was not hired. On 10-9-63 he was referred to Burton-Dixie as a clerk -trainee at $1.25 an hour. He was not hired. On 10-15 he was called -on the phone and referred direct on the same day to Trans-Texas as a -cargo handler, and he did not report. In other words, he just didn't -show up, and then they have a notation here that looks like--it says, -"Working 10-16 R.L.A." In other words, Robert Adams in some manner of -fashion---- - -Mr. JENNER. Ascertained that he was working? - -Mr. STATMAN. Ascertained or received word that he was working. Now, our -next document--let's take the easiest one--E-40(A) (961), which is the -test record card, and that indicates the different types of tests we -give. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that on a 2-sided card? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It does not fold? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir; I'm sorry; it's like this. - -Mr. JENNER. It is 2-sided but just one sheet? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right, and then on the front is also the individual---- - -Mr. JENNER. It is half the size of a letter-size sheet of paper? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right; it is the information on the individual aptitude -profile. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, may I identify it a little further for the -record? It is marked as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2. [The original of -Cunningham Exhibit No. 2 is in evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2-A.] - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; start it this way [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Looking at the face of the card at the top there -is a blank for "name," which is not filled in. At the bottom of the -card, an aptitude score appears the figures sequentially: 109, 127, 99, -97, 117, 120, 97, 116, 127. - -Mr. STATMAN. Those indicate his scores in his tests. - -Mr. JENNER. On the face of the card appears in bold face caps -"Individual aptitude profile." - -Mr. STATMAN. Okay. Now, again, as I say, a complete battery of tests is -given to make up this G.A.T.B., which stands for General Aptitude Test -Batteries. - -Now, certain parts of these tests when converted, give you scores in -general intelligence, verbal, numbers, special conception, perception, -clerical, motor coordination, finger dexterity, and manual dexterity. - -Now, by a combination of some of these parts of tests, it will give -you an occupational aptitude in certain areas, which are numbered and -circled. - -Now, these occupational aptitudes or proficiencies are circled, and -these are used---- - -Mr. JENNER. The ones that are circled are what? - -Mr. STATMAN. Are the ones he has some proficiency in. In other words, -"2" means he had some writing ability. Now, I'm not that conversant -with these cards. - -Mr. JENNER. Will Mrs. Cunningham know that? - -Mr. STATMAN. She will know and she can tell you, and also he has taken -some other tests--a B-400 and a B-49. - -Mr. JENNER. What are those? - -Mr. STATMAN. I think they are clerical; you better ask her for sure. -I'm fairly sure they are clerical. Now, that's all this is. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that bottom line there that I read before? - -Mr. STATMAN. Those are the scores he made in these different parts. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. STATMAN. In other words, you see, he made 109 in general -intelligence, 127 in verbal; you remember she indicated he did good on -verbal and you remember she did indicate that he did good on clerical. - -Now, they have a cut-off sheet with certain numbers and you run this -down, let's say, in order to be good in occupational pattern "2," you -have to have 100 on your G, and 100 on your P, and 100 on your F, which -he did. - -Let's say, to be good--he missed five. Let's say you have to have -a 100, 100, and 100. He only has 99 on this and 97 on this, so he -wouldn't pass this pattern. So, actually, the different cut-off scores -would indicate which patterns you pass, and the patterns you pass -indicate an aptitude or propensity in certain occupational patterns. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham will be able to give us that? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; I have been away from this a while, but they go into -automobile mechanics and maybe clerical, and the first one is literary, -art, design, and so forth and so on. As you go down, it takes less -proficiency or less mental acuity to pass a test. - -Mr. JENNER. While I am thinking about it, who is in charge of the Fort -Worth office. I can call on there tomorrow? - -Mr. STATMAN. Krizan, he is the District Director, K-r-i-z-a-n -[spelling]. That is his last name. Wayland is his first name. Now we -might have the same thing in Fort Worth that we are doing here. I think -we had some dealings with him in Fort Worth. - -Now, along with this should be his counseling card, which would -indicate the type of counseling and any responses. I can't find that; I -don't know--I know the FBI man has it. We might not have made a picture -of it or it might have gotten lost, but again, Helen remembers enough -about it to give you the pertinent details of it. Ask her about the -E-41 or the counseling card. All right, now, here is where it gets a -little complicated. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we are going to a third document? - -Mr. STATMAN. The third document is---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a card also? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; this a card. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a folded card? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; it folds. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a letter-size sheet. It is marked Cunningham Exhibit -No. 3. Would you put the two sheets in the position they would be in -with the card? [The original card, of which Cunningham Exhibit No. 3 is -a copy, is in evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 3-A.] - -Mr. STATMAN. I'm trying to. This isn't one of our normal documents, as -I said, this is an interstate document. You know, there is a different -address on the test-record card than on the application card and you -may want to bring that out. - -Mr. JENNER. I do want to bring that out; the address on the aptitude -test card, I see, is 3519 Fairmount in Dallas. - -Mr. STATMAN. Okay. I'm sorry; I should have mentioned that to you -before. - -Mr. JENNER. Opposite the word "comments" on the face of the card---- - -Mr. STATMAN. That's G.A.T.B. in Fort Worth, June 1962, so that -indicates that he had had this complete G.A.T.B. given in Fort Worth in -1962, and maybe in order not to be redundant, they might have sent and -gotten; yes, in fact, I know they did because you see--you don't have -any indication here of the make-up, so these scores and patterns were -obtained from the Fort Worth office. - -Mr. JENNER. The date, October 10, 1962, appearing on the reverse of the -card lettered "individual aptitude tests" would, I take it, in view -of what you have now said, be the date on which the information was -obtained from the Fort Worth office? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, no; the G.A.T.B. in Fort Worth, June 1962--that's -when he took it. - -Mr. JENNER. There is another date below that. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; you see, all this dealings has been in 1963, hasn't -it? This 1962 would probably indicate the Fort Worth action, wouldn't -it? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I was trying to attempt to do was bring it out. - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, everything else we have done is in 1963, so we would -have to ascertain here or assume that this 10-10-62 was the date that -the G.A.T.B. was administered to him in Fort Worth. No; that couldn't -be right either, because June wouldn't be 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. He came to this country on June 12, 1962. - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, maybe this is a mistake and it should have been -10-10-63. That would be more than likely the dates, wouldn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. Possibly. - -Mr. STATMAN. You see, everything else we have on the application -that indicates 10-10-63, wouldn't it? In other words, we have had no -dealings with him back in 1962, have we? - -Mr. JENNER. Not in the Dallas office. - -Mr. STATMAN. No, no; again, I guess you would have to postulate that -that should be 10-10-63. In other words, on 10-10-63, they recorded -this information from the Fort Worth records. - -Mr. JENNER. Taking you back to the previous exhibit, I direct your -attention to a date of 10-10-62, appearing---- - -Mr. STATMAN. No; you are right--okay--they contacted Fort Worth on -10-10-62, and received this information from them. - -Mr. JENNER. This aptitude information from them? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. In other words, the test was not administered in -the Dallas office, it was administered in Fort Worth. Have I got you -confused, finally? - -Mr. JENNER. No; you don't have me confused; you are doing splendidly. -You are very helpful. - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, this document [Cunningham Exhibit No. 3] is a claim -document, B-3(a). - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, may I have this described a little more for the -record? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, I want you to note that there is an original date on -there indicating a New Orleans address and then a Dallas address. - -Mr. JENNER. You are going to explain that--all I'm going to do at the -moment is to identify the document for the record. - -Mr. STATMAN. It is a B-3(a), Cunningham Exhibit No. 3. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a document in typing opposite the printed -designation--the name is "L. H. Oswald" and to the right of that in -printing is "SS Number," which I take it is his social security number? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. It is 433-54-3937. In longhand above that line, I have just -read, appears P.O. Box 30061. - -Mr. STATMAN. All right--now, to go on with that and also in longhand is -the Irving address, 2515 West Fifth, Irving. - -Mr. JENNER. I see there are some strike-outs. - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, the original document was typed giving L. H. -Oswald, 757 France Street, New Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it French? - -Mr. STATMAN. France--it looks like France. - -Mr. JENNER. French, F-r-e-n-c-h [spelling]. - -Mr. STATMAN. It looks like "a" to me. - -Mr. JENNER. F-r-a-n-c-e [spelling]. We'll let Mr. Davis look at it. - -Mr. DAVIS. I think it is French, F-r-e-n-c-h [spelling]. It's French in -the writing. - -Mr. STATMAN. I'm talking about the typing now--the typing is "a." - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, the typing is "a," but it looks like the writing is -French. - -Mr. STATMAN. I was just talking about the typing. I'm just discussing -the typing with you now. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay, it is 757 France Street in typing. Following that -is French Street, stricken out, that is in longhand, and above the -strike-out is 2515 West Fifth, in longhand, and below that is "Irving, -Texas." - -Mr. STATMAN. The reason I am making a differentiation between that, is -that the typing of it was done in New Orleans because that is where -this document was originally issued. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was it originally issued in New Orleans? - -Mr. STATMAN. Because he was in New Orleans filing an interstate claim -against Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. The interstate claim being a claim of an applicant who has -been residing in a State other than Texas and he is making a claim -against the State of Texas. - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, it is a claim where a person has earned his wages -in one State and is filing in another State against the State in which -he has earned his wage credits. So, he has earned his wage credits in -Texas. He was filing in New Orleans against the State of Texas. That's -where this original document was made. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it appear from this document as to when that claim was -filed in New Orleans? - -Mr. STATMAN. I am just trying to figure out something here--the initial -claim in New Orleans was filed on 4-29-63. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the 29th day of May, 1963, when he filed the claim -in New Orleans? - -Mr. STATMAN. Then, in Texas on 5-8-63 it was determined that he was -entitled to $33.00 a week. - -Mr. JENNER. On 5-8-63 or 6-8-63--he filed a claim May 29. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; 4-29-63. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh; 4-29-63--the date of filing the claim was April 29, -1963, and action was taken on that claim by the Texas Employment -Commission on---- - -Mr. STATMAN. They made a monetary determination on it on 5-8-63. - -Mr. JENNER. On what date? - -Mr. STATMAN. On May 8, 1963. In other words, what they do is check his -wage credits, and then ascertain how much weekly amount he is entitled -to; that is, the weekly benefit amount, and how much total amounts he -is entitled to. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the total? - -Mr. STATMAN. The weekly benefit amount was $33 a week, a total of $369; -in other words, he could draw for about 11 weeks. His BYE that's the -Benefit Year Ends on 5-28-64. All that means is that the claim is in -force to this date. - -Mr. JENNER. He would receive that amount of money per week until that -date? - -Mr. STATMAN. No; until he received a total of $369, but he had that -whole year to draw that money. Let's say he went to work for 6 months -and let's say he drew 10 checks--that would be $330, and then he went -to work for 6 months; well, between the 6 months and this 4-28-64, he -would still be entitled to draw, if he were unemployed, $69 more. - -Now, for some reason or other, he was filing in New Orleans--on these -dates, and that is indicated by the I-B-2, that means he is filing an -interstate correspondence. This information is sent to Texas and Texas -posts it on its card. Do you want all these dates that he filed? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they are on the record. - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But what I do want to know is--he filed claims when in New -Orleans on the dates listed. - -Mr. STATMAN. Up until this point. - -Mr. JENNER. He filed those up to and including line 11, is that correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So, that would mean he filed claims on 11 separate -occasions? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes; in New Orleans. That is indicated by the I-B-1 and -I-B-2 symbols, indicating that that is an interstate claim. In other -words, he is residing in one State and filing against another. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, for the record, those 11 claims--the first is on -May 7, 1963, and the 11th is on September 17, 1963, am I correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, the last two claims, if you will notice---- - -Mr. JENNER. Those are on lines what? - -Mr. STATMAN. Lines 13 and 14, so he filed through line 12. - -Mr. JENNER. Through line 12 rather than through line 11? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And line 12, the date is September 24, 1963? - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, on the last two dates that he filed a claim--10-3-63 -and 10-10-63, the symbol changes to C.C., which indicates "Continued -Claim," which in turn indicates that it is an intrastate claim. In -other words, he is now filing in Texas against Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, if he had not exhausted his interstate claim, that is -the amount due him, and he returned to Dallas---- - -Mr. STATMAN. He didn't exhaust his interstate claim--you know, once you -set up a claim, that's all the money you get, regardless of which State -you are in. He just happened to return to the State in which he had -earned his wage credits, so his claim reverted from an interstate claim -to an intrastate only due to geographical location, not due to any -monetary consideration. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, the explanation is--although the classifications -changed from interstate to intrastate, it was the same claim. - -Mr. STATMAN. Right--it was the same claim, it's just a matter of -changing geographical locations. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the claimant? - -Mr. STATMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Back to the State of Texas? - -Mr. STATMAN. Back to the State of Texas. You see, he could have started -his claim in Texas and moved to New Orleans and that would have gone -from an intrastate claim to an interstate claim. I had trouble with -that FBI man on that. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, I mean, it can be confusing, because each State -has their own set of regulations, and actually, we have an interstate -unit in Austin that pays claims from people outside of Texas who are -filing against Texas, and we also have interstate claims the other way. -We have people who have earned their wage credits in New York and are -living here in Dallas, so, when they file a claim, they are filing an -interstate claim against New York. You see, what has happened, this -originated--this interstate claim filed against Texas, and when he -returned to Texas it became an intrastate. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that cover that side of the card? - -Mr. STATMAN. That covers everything. So, according to this, it would -indicate that he filed, now, you notice he had no signatures here. We -have these individuals, when they come to our office, sign their names -once, because they sign their individual cards, and we want to compare -their each weekly signature with a card here to make sure that the -person who is signing this claim for unemployment insurance is the one -that filed the card. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose signature appears on the inside of the card when -folded? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right; you see, here we had not his signature because he -was in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "here" you are referring to lines 1 -through 12, isn't that correct? - -Mr. STATMAN. 1 through 13. In other words, in the space for remarks, 1 -through 13, his signature does not appear. - -Mr. JENNER. If he were here in Texas when those claims were made, his -signature would appear on each of those lines? - -Mr. STATMAN. No; just one time. - -Mr. JENNER. At the top--meaning line 1? - -Mr. STATMAN. No; at different offices--some offices make them sign it -every time he goes in. Again, it's redundant. Actually, all you want -is a true signature to compare the continued claim card he signs each -week, to make sure this individual's signature checks. Then, when he -came in on 10-10-63 he signed this card in our office, to establish a -signature for us to be able to check future documents with. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, and to pay him any balance due on his claim, or -had it been paid out by that time? - -Mr. STATMAN. Well, he drew, actually, I can't tell you how much money -he drew, because of a lot of times an individual might file for his -unemployment and for some reason or another he might be ineligible so -he won't get any money. These records do not indicate the amount of -money he has collected. You will have to get that out of Austin--the -chief of the insurance claims. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis is an expert at that and anyhow it is his home -town. Is that right, Mr. Davis? - -Mr. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. STATMAN. In other words, I could go in and file for my unemployment -and they might have phoned me for a job Wednesday and I said, "My wife -is working and I have got to stay here with my kids," and I wasn't able -and available for work that week. So, even though I filed for a claim -that week, I would be ineligible, so just the mere signing of these -cards would not indicate the payment to an individual. - -Mr. JENNER. You have been extremely helpful. - -Mr. STATMAN. I hope so. I hope I didn't confuse you too much. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't confuse us at all. - -Mr. STATMAN. Now, do you want to keep all of those records? - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; very much so. I offer the three documents in -evidence as Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, and 3, respectively. [The -original copies of the cards marked Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, and -3 are in evidence as Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1-A, 2-A, and 3-A.] - -Mr. STATMAN. Okay, I guess that's all right--I don't know. Actually, -our records are supposed to be confidential and we are supposed to have -a court order before we release them, but I will just leave them with -you and if I get in trouble I'll come to see you. - -Mr. JENNER. If you get in any trouble about them, we will see that they -are returned and we will make copies for you, but, of course, you can -see they are hard to duplicate. - -Mr. STATMAN. Are you going to be in town for a few days? - -Mr. JENNER. I'll be in town tomorrow and I'll be back next week. There -will be members of the legal staff here all the time. - -Mr. STATMAN. Fine. All right, I'm just going to leave these with you. -If something comes up I might have to solicit your aid. - -Mr. JENNER. You've got a certified record of the fact you left them -here. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; I don't mean that. I might should not have released -these to you without authorization from Austin, but if that comes up, -you look like a pretty good lawyer and you might be able to bring us -out of it. - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; if you get locked up, we will spring you out. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis is from the Texas attorney general's office. - -Mr. STATMAN. I'm not trying to be negative about this, but you know, -when you deal with the State, sometimes if you don't follow the -protocol there is difficulty. - -Mr. DAVIS. If you have any question on it I would be glad to talk with -them and tell them that we have made a formal request of you to leave -them with us. - -Mr. STATMAN. All right, fine. Is that all? - -Mr. JENNER. That's all. Thank you very much. If you want to read this -over, you may. - -Mr. STATMAN. No; that's all right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you waive signature too? - -Mr. STATMAN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much. You have been very helpful. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. - -Mr. STATMAN. All right, I'm glad I could help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF TOMMY BARGAS - -The testimony of Tommy Bargas was taken at 11:35 a.m., on March 30, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, do you swear that in the deposition I am about -to take of you that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. BARGAS. Tommy Bargas, B-a-r-g-a-s [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. And where do you live? - -Mr. BARGAS. 301 East Drew, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, did you receive recently a letter from Mr. -Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the letter asking you if you would appear and permit -your deposition to be taken, with which was enclosed copies of -Executive Order 11130, creating the Commission, and of Senate Joint -Resolution 137, authorizing the President to appoint and create the -Commission, and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission -for the questioning of witnesses by members of the staff of the -Commission? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the counsel on the legal -staff of the Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis is here, who is a special -assistant attorney general of the State of Texas, and is cooperating -with us and we with him and the attorney general, in the investigation -that the State of Texas is carrying on. Now, you appear voluntarily? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Commission, as you know, from these papers enclosed -is investigating the tragedy of the assassination of President John -F. Kennedy, and many people have had some contact with various -circumstances and incidents involving persons who may or could have -been involved in turn in that assassination, and we have information -that you had some contact with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald, and -we would like to inquire of you about that contact. You live in Fort -Worth--how long have you resided in Fort Worth? - -Mr. BARGAS. I have lived in Fort Worth all my life. - -Mr. JENNER. All of your life? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a native Texan? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And born and reared in Texas? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you, during his lifetime, come to know a man by -the name of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BARGAS. I only knew him when he went to work for Louv-R-Pak Weather -Co. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did have a contact--you came to know him? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. At some contact you came to know him, whatever the case -might be? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you been employed by Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. I been employed with them ever since 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that include the year 1962? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom were you employed during the year prior thereto? - -Mr. BARGAS. Louv-R-Pak. - -Mr. JENNER. L-o-u-v-R-P-a-k [spelling]. I take it, then, that somewhere -along the line a company known as Louv-R-Pak merged into or associated -with Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you, as an employee of Louv-R-Pak then became -automatically an employee of Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Louv-R-Pak a division of the Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And tell us, at least in general, what is the business of -Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. Leslie Welding Co. manufactures louvers and ventilators for -attics, houses--commercial and residential. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the business of Louv-R-Pak? - -Mr. BARGAS. Louv-R-Pak is the same line. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the same line? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I use the present tense when I refer to Leslie Welding Co., -that is, what is its business--was that that you have described its -business in 1962? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And thereafter as well, to the present time? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me, if you will, your particular connection with -first--Louv-R-Pak and then Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, I was at Louv-R-Pak just a regular employee, and -then in Leslie Welding, after it was purchased by Leslie Welding -Co.--Louv-R-Pak was--then, after a short time I became foreman down -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Foreman in the Louv-R-Pak division of the Leslie Welding -Co.? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of work was under your supervision and direction -as a foreman? - -Mr. BARGAS. As a foreman it was total supervision of the plant. In -other words--assign men to their jobs and see that they carried them -out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do any hiring of people? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And discharging of people? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that the making of these louvers involves welding -and sheet metal work? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of work is that--is that forming, and cutting and -stripping and punching? - -Mr. BARGAS. Spot welding and resistance welding was all they use. - -Mr. JENNER. Spot welding and resistance welding? - -Mr. BARGAS. Resistance welding and spot welding is the same thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the sheet metal come in size or do you have to form it -in some fashion? - -Mr. BARGAS. We have to form it in various different sizes to -specifications called for. - -Mr. JENNER. And then, the louvers are spot welded and placed--they are -moved up and down in various directions, are they? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Leslie Welding Co. have any plants other than in Fort -Worth? - -Mr. BARGAS. It has one in Atlanta, Ga. - -Mr. JENNER. Is its home office located here or in Atlanta, Ga.? - -Mr. BARGAS. No, sir; it is located in Chicago. - -Mr. JENNER. In Chicago proper or some suburb of Chicago? - -Mr. BARGAS. In a suburb. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Melrose Park or Franklin Park? - -Mr. BARGAS. Franklin Park. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been up there? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any production facilities there at Franklin Park? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That's near O'Hare Field? - -Mr. BARGAS. It is near to O'Hare Field. - -Mr. JENNER. And, near Mannheim Road--I think Mannheim Road bisects -Franklin Park, doesn't it? - -Mr. BARGAS. I'm not too familiar with it, but I did travel on Mannheim -Road. I remember that, but I'm not too familiar with the area. - -Mr. JENNER. Did someone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald ever work for -Leslie Welding Co. here in Fort Worth? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that? - -Mr. BARGAS. In what manner? In what respect? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hire him, for example? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, he came down--we called in for men at the Texas -employment office and they sent him down and naturally he was -interviewed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do the calling in? - -Mr. BARGAS. I don't do the calling in, no. - -Mr. JENNER. You told somebody working for you or under your direction -to call the Texas Employment Agency? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, the secretary called. - -Mr. JENNER. At your direction, however? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you tell her you wanted in the way of an -employee? - -Mr. BARGAS. I wanted a suitable employee that we could train that had -some sheet metal experience, that we could train--that was willing to -learn, starting at a low grade. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this? - -Mr. BARGAS. I do not know exactly the date. - -Mr. JENNER. I have a date in my notes of July 17, 1962, does that -approximate it? - -Mr. BARGAS. That's approximately right. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in 1962? - -Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was in July sometime? - -Mr. BARGAS. Sometime in July. - -Mr. JENNER. Along about the middle of July? Is that correct? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes; somewhere around in there. - -Mr. JENNER. In response to this message that had been transmitted to -the Texas State Employment Agency, somebody by the name of Lee Oswald -came to your place of business, to the factory, and you had made it -clear through your secretary, who called on your behalf, that you were -seeking somebody who was going to start at the bottom, to be trained, -that if he had some sheet metal experience that would be fine? - -Mr. BARGAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. But, whoever this employee or prospective employee would -be, would start at a low rate and it would be contemplated that he -would be trained? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Lee Oswald came on the scene--do you recall your -meeting with him? - -Mr. BARGAS. No--not very distinctly--no. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you relatively frequently have occasion to seek new -employees? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This was not out of the ordinary? - -Mr. BARGAS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was just in the regular course of business? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And neither the nature of the employment, nor the man -himself in either respect--was there anything unusual or particular -about it? - -Mr. BARGAS. No--none whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that meeting, to the extent you can -recall it. - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, it's pretty hard because I meet so many people that's -come in and out. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--it may be important to us, Mr. Bargas, -that your recollection is exactly what it is, that this employment was -just the usual, ordinary sort of thing and that he didn't impress you -greatly--don't you be embarrassed at all--all we want to find out from -you is what your personal recollection is and what you remember, that's -all. - -It may be just as important to us that you remember very little, -because it was not extraordinary, as your remembering something -particular about it. Give us what you now recall took place. - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, the only thing that I remember taking place was him -coming into the plant. - -Mr. JENNER. And he came to see you--or he was directed to you? - -Mr. BARGAS. He was directed to me, and he came in and I gave him an -application to fill out and we talked and I gave him instructions of -what I expected of the men when he came to be employed there. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us as best you can now recall that -conversation--what you told him--what did you expect, what did you say -to him that you expected? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, I have three basic rules that I go by--one, is that I -expect a man to be there on time and I expect him, when he punches in -in the morning to be prepared to work, and if he is going to be absent -for any reason at all, I expect him to call in in the morning before -10 o'clock which is one of our company rules, and then I went along -stating what he would be doing, where he would be working---- - -Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us what you said to him, in substance. - -Mr. BARGAS. What I said to him in substance probably was--I usually -tell them, "You will be working in this department," and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Which department? - -Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department. - -Mr. JENNER. The turbine department? - -Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department, and that's another ventilator which -we make, and this ventilator requires a little cutting to do with the -shears, and he told me that he had had sheet metal experience while he -was in the service. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. BARGAS. And so---- - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of cutting--you say with the shears--is it a -power-operated shears? - -Mr. BARGAS. A power-operated shears. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. BARGAS. And then after that, I put him to work. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to stick to that beginning a little -bit--do you recall what inquiries you made of him as to his immediate -history, that is, did you inquire of him as to past positions, if any, -he had held? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When you talked with him, I take it from your answer that -you did inquire of him as to what sheet metal work experience he had -had, if any? - -Mr. BARGAS. If any. - -Mr. JENNER. And his response was--what did he say? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, he said he had had some when he was in the service -and that's all, and he didn't give no full detail as to what he was -doing or how he was doing it. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire? - -Mr. BARGAS. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, at that stage of the game it was your -impression or your thought, since this was to be a low hourly rated -employee, that you would soon find out if he had any experience? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you intended to train him in any event? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have any recollection of his appearance on that -occasion, how he was attired with respect to cleanliness, did he have a -suit coat on, a jacket, or a T-shirt, or if you have no recollection, -then just say you don't? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This was just an employment in the ordinary course of -business that you do frequently? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And nothing with respect to this man impressed you or now -stands out? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. At this initial interview? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him as to where he lived? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. As to whether he had a telephone or not? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he married--did he have a family? - -Mr. BARGAS. The only thing--he was married but he never stated--he -never said what nationality his wife was or anything like that. As a -matter of fact, he never--we never communicated that much. In other -words, we didn't talk--we didn't communicate between each other that -much. - -Once or twice I tried to talk with him, you know, we usually try to -find out how the employees are getting along, whether they like their -jobs they are working at and if not, then we try to place them in a -different position, and I make them satisfactory and that way I feel -that a man can put out more. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. - -Mr. BARGAS. And so, I tried to talk to him once or twice and all I -would get "yes", "no" and that was it, and as long as I gave him the -job he went and done it as everybody else in the plant, so I didn't -have no grudge on him or nothing at all. I assigned him a job and he -done it and I was satisfied. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a somewhat uncommunicative person? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But this did not interfere with his work? - -Mr. BARGAS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, even though he was -uncommunicative, he was doing his work and he wasn't causing any -trouble, so as far as his personality was concerned, you let that pass? - -Mr. BARGAS. It was satisfactory with me. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of an employee was he, or what is your impression -and present recollection? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, as much as I can remember of the short time he was -there, it was a very short time he was there--he was a good employee. I -imagine if he pursued that trade, he might have come out to be a pretty -good sheet metal man--I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But at least that's your impression? - -Mr. BARGAS. That's my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it he did not volunteer anything with respect to his -past or his family or his current activities outside the plant? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What were his relations, if any, with respect to other -employees? - -Mr. BARGAS. None whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that that he kept to himself? - -Mr. BARGAS. Totally. - -Mr. JENNER. Totally--what about lunch times--employees usually get -together at lunch time? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, everybody used to get together over there except -himself. He would take his lunch and move over to the side there and -eat his lunch by himself and he didn't talk to nobody about nothing, so -nobody ever even messed with him, I mean as far as that's concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to whether he was -indifferent to his work, happy with his work--what impression do you -have as to his reaction to his work? - -Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing stands out? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether he ever sought to -be particularly industrious or tried to impress you? - -Mr. BARGAS. No; the only thing I can remember--he just done his -job--that's all. - -Mr. JENNER. He was prompt, was he, in the mornings? - -Mr. BARGAS. As far as I can remember he was there every day. - -Mr. JENNER. And he had a good attendance record, as far as you can -recall? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of anybody employed at the -plant with whom Oswald did or might have associated after work hours or -on weekends? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And as far as you observed, during the days of employment, -he kept pretty much to himself anyhow? - -Mr. BARGAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything with respect to his -temperament--was he quick tempered, was there any incident that -occurred that would give you a basis for an opinion? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did he work there, to the best of your -recollection? - -Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, -somewhere right along in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he -worked until on or about October 8th 1962? - -Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th? - -Mr. BARGAS. It is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the -course of September when his employment was terminated? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of -his employment? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during -working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours. - -Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time? - -Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't -give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to -leave or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day? - -Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not -mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it -was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in -and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried -to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may -have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, -and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said -then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the -same thing." - -In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's -all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or -something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's -what the other guys would say. - -Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he -wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said -he was up there in Irving somewhere--I don't remember the address or -exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it. I never -had seen him since then and the last time I heard of him was when his -name sounded off on the radio. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you then? - -Mr. BARGAS. I was there at the plant. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in the afternoon of November 22d? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. BARGAS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you heard his name broadcast on the radio? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that awakened your memory? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, it come to me--in other words--the name right -there, it rang a bell--in other words, because I remember some of the -names--in other words, when they say them, I can more or less remember -them, and then I even said to myself, well, I wasn't too sure of it -then, you know, because there are so many Oswalds, so when I got home -that afternoon, I was watching the television and there they came with -a flash picture of him and I remembered him. - -Mr. JENNER. On the television? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the flash picture you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald who had -been an employee under your supervision and direction? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes--he was the one that had been employed there. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized him? - -Mr. BARGAS. I recognized him. - -Mr. JENNER. And, did that excite you to look at other television -showings to confirm your recollection that the man under arrest by the -Dallas City Police was Lee Harvey Oswald, a former employee of Leslie -Welding Company? - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, I followed the whole thing pretty well. I mean--it -wasn't that I was interested in knowing whether I knew the man, because -it didn't impress me very much of having known the man that done the -deed that he did, but I did follow it pretty close and as I said, as I -followed him more and more, I remembered him more and more. - -Mr. JENNER. During the period of his employment, that was approximately -a couple of months or a little more--more or less--did he evidence any -disposition toward physical violence, quick temper, arguments with -fellow employees, or anything of that nature? - -Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, -inclusive, and ask you to examine those photographs and tell me if -the man depicted on those photographs, in your opinion, bears any -resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BARGAS. [Examining exhibits referred to.] None of them. - -Mr. JENNER. He does not? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his skills, did he do a reasonably satisfactory -job? - -Mr. BARGAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, I think that's about all the questions I have. -I would like to ask you, however, this general question as to whether -anything has occurred to you, any incident or anything else that has -come to your mind that you think might be helpful to the Commission in -its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. BARGAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You are privileged to read your deposition, if -you wish to, and to sign it, if you wish to. It isn't required and you -may waive it if you see fit--that is--forego it. - -Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime during the week if you want to -call in to Mr. Sanders' office, the United States Attorney's office, -and come in and read it, you have a right to have a copy of your -deposition if you wish to purchase one, and Miss Oliver will be quite -willing to sell you one at whatever her rates are. - -Do you have any preferences in this connection? - -Mr. BARGAS. I would like to have one of those depositions--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you call into Mr. Sanders and he will put you in touch -with Miss Oliver and you can make arrangements with her for a copy, and -I appreciate your coming in and regret any inconvenience to you, but -you have been helpful to us. - -Mr. BARGAS. Well, I'm glad I have. As far as I know--I don't know--as -much as I knew about the man, I don't think I can tell you enough--as -much as I thought I knew the man. If I had known anything like that -about the man, he would have never been employed there. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, so say we all. - -Mr. BARGAS. But it's just one of those things. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. - -Mr. BARGAS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. STOVALL - -The testimony of Robert L. Stovall was taken at 3:30 p.m., on March 30, -1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, would you please rise and be sworn. Do you -swear in your testimony that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Robert L. Stovall? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] S-t-o-v-a-l-l? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are president of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, 523 Browder, -here in Dallas, is that right? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, my name is [spelling] J-e-n-n-e-r, Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission -appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. You -received from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, a -letter in which he enclosed, three documents--Joint Resolution 137 -authorizing the creation of the Commission, Executive Order 11130 of -President Johnson, creating the Commission, and then the Rules of -Procedure of the Commission itself. - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily in an effort to assist the -Commission in its work? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. We are investigating as you notice in those papers all the -possible pertinent facts and circumstances surrounding that horrible -event, to see if we can enlighten the citizenry of the country and at -least get all of the facts recorded, and in the main, as a matter of -fact, get rid of a lot of rumors that keep cropping up here and there, -and since Lee Oswald was employed by your company, we would like to -make some inquiries of your company, if we may. - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas, Texas? - -Mr. STOVALL. Dallas; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way? - -Mr. STOVALL. Forty-three. - -Mr. JENNER. And is this your company--is it a corporation or a -partnership? - -Mr. STOVALL. It is a corporation. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you the principal shareholder? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you organize the company? - -Mr. STOVALL. No; this is the second generation of the company. The -original founders disposed of their holdings about 3-1/2 years ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Disposed of them to you and your family? - -Mr. STOVALL. And several of our employees. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been with the company how long? - -Mr. STOVALL. Twenty-five years. - -Mr. JENNER. That has been, I gather then, considering your age--your -entire business career has been spent with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, except while I was in the Navy and I worked summers -while I was going to college. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you attend the university, by the way? - -Mr. STOVALL. I went to Texas Tech and SMU. I attended SMU at night and -worked in the day. - -Mr. JENNER. What does your company do? - -Mr. STOVALL. We are in the typographic services. We serve advertising -agencies, advertising departments, and the graphic arts industry as a -middle supplier for type services. We also produce newspaper mats for -duplication throughout the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you do any work for any federal agency? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any -kind? - -Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not, but we do on -occasion. We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, -although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of -Defense as a single unit. - -Mr. JENNER. Without disclosing any secrets in that connection or -classifications, what is the nature of that work? - -Mr. STOVALL. Generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting -and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and -figures. We have no correlation of what they refer to. - -Mr. JENNER. It's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land -areas or what? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; and some foreign areas, too. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, other than continental United States? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any of this work done in the department or area to -which Lee Oswald had access while he was employed by your company? - -Mr. STOVALL. Not in the department at all. Whatever secret work we -might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been -cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view -this. - -Mr. JENNER. So, anything that is classified is done only by employees -of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate Federal agency? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is -concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work? - -Mr. STOVALL. This is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that your company is at pains to see that no one other -than those who are cleared have access to it? - -Mr. STOVALL. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was true while he was working for you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. In fact, at such times as we have any secret work -going, even at the point of being rude, we see that no one has access -to any of this material. I won't say--rude--but we strictly enforce it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you make it pretty firm, which is right? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you do any lithography work? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you do any printing of advertisements, papers, -newspapers, periodicals? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You set type, of course? - -Mr. STOVALL. We set type. The only printing we do is a proving process, -and that should we do an ad, let's say some of the Savings Bond -Committee and ship one hundred mats, we would also ship one hundred -proofs. - -Mr. JENNER. You pull off proofs but your presses are proof presses, and -that's all? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right; we have no printing presses in this regard. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you do a lot of camera work? - -Mr. STOVALL. Considerable; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is commercial camera work? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right; it isn't even photography. It is only the part of -reducing and enlarging printed material that we set in our type shop. -It has to be re-sized and we also make screen veloxes. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain for the record what that is. - -Mr. STOVALL. A velox is a photographic print that has been screened -by a dot press to separate the tone values in order that a camera can -shoot them in black and white or in any group of colors, but it breaks -it down into minute units that a camera will recognize. - -Mr. JENNER. That's like half tones for newspaper printing? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you do any plate work other than the mats? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the term "microdot printing" or lithographing familiar -to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Lithography is--microdot printing is not. - -Mr. JENNER. And you don't do any work of that nature and character? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than the preparation of or use of dot work as you -have already described it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You personally have no familiarity with microdot reduction -of some image? - -Mr. STOVALL. No; we have no equipment and I have no experience in that. -I am familiar with the microfilm as to the advantages of it from the -standpoint of storage and so forth, but as to participating in any -microfilming operation, we don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any microdot in printing? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. For example, taking a 24 by 24 printed sheet and microdot -reducing it to less than the area of a postage stamp. - -Mr. STOVALL. There are several specialty houses here and this is all -done by Recordak and it is a specialty with them and they have the -equipment. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have none and you have never done it? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which Lee Harvey -Oswald was employed by your company? - -Mr. STOVALL. I know the circumstances only from the statement made -by John Graef, the fellow you interviewed this morning. He made the -interview himself. We were in the market for a trainee to learn this -simple photoprint process. He has had a connection with the Employment -Commission and the State Employment Commission for a quite a few years -in that we use their services. That's what they are for. - -Mr. JENNER. You personally had nothing to do with Oswald's initial -employment? - -Mr. STOVALL. No. - -Mr JENNER. That was Mr. Graef? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is the head of that department. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of his progress or lack of it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes--through their information. - -Mr. JENNER. Through reports from Mr. Graef? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he kept you advised from time to time? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of Oswald's progress or lack -of it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And were there any incidents that came to your attention -with respect to Oswald's relations with other employees? - -Mr. STOVALL. Not that I personally know of--on occasion one or two -fellows would mention that they didn't have any real liking for him -because he was such an oddball, but as far as I'm concerned, I never -spoke to the fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him in and about the premises, however? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I have seen him in and about the premises. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise in which the subject of his -conversation or his talking about Russia arose or was reported to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Only after he left our employ was any mention made of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. STOVALL. He sought employment at another company here in town, a -printing company. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of that company? - -Mr. STOVALL. Padgett Printing Co.--Padgett Printing and Lithographing -Co., and the superintendent over there called me and he gave us as a -reference. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know the superintendent's name? - -Mr. STOVALL. Ted Gangel. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you spell it, please? - -Mr. JENNER. G-a-n-g-e-l [spelling], or G-a-n-g-l--I won't be sure. - -Mr. JENNER. They are here in Dallas? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes--he's their superintendent. He called me and asked me -and I told him I did not know, but I would check, so I asked John Graef -and they said this fellow was kind of an oddball, and he was kinda -peculiar sometimes and that he had had some knowledge of the Russian -language, which--this is all I knew, so I told Ted, I said, "Ted, I -don't know, this guy may be a damn Communist. I can't tell you. If I -was you, I wouldn't hire him." So, he didn't, but he did come out of -the Marines and supposedly he had a discharge that was satisfactory but -I did not ever see this discharge. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in connection with your inquiries at that -time about his having had a Russian language newspaper around your -place of employment? - -Mr. STOVALL. One of the fellows mentioned that he thought he might -have, but in further discussion he was unable to pinpoint whether he -was positive of this or whether he just thought it was. This fellow -Ofstein--I think he made mention of it, the fact that he thought he -might have seen one. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he said not only did he see it, but that he read it. -He had some command of the Russian language himself. He was a student -at the Service Language School in Monterey, Calif., when he was in the -service. - -Mr. STOVALL. Actually, when I was talking to this fellow Padgett, I was -really just shooting off my mouth, but it seemed the way it turned out, -that maybe there was a little bit of founding to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that came to your attention about his -discharge from the Marines? - -Mr. STOVALL. No; I really didn't know any particulars on it until this -incident happened. - -Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. STOVALL. No, previous to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it ever come to your attention of Oswald having any -contact with any of your employees subsequent to the termination of his -employment? - -Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. I have here Commission Exhibit 427, which purports to -be the original of an employee identification questionnaire of your -company, with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, and would you look at it, -please? - -Mr. STOVALL. (Examining instrument referred to.) - -Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar in fact with what it purports to be? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; this is the employment card that we had on him. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is part of your original books and records of your -company, kept in the usual and regular course of business? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right--this was picked up by the Secret Service and -somewhere I have a receipt from them, well, there is a negative--I -destroyed the positive. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are showing me a receipt and if I could read -backwards, I would be able to read this. - -Mr. STOVALL. If you have a mirror, you can look at it and read it. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Stovall, off -the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to tell me whose handwriting that is in the -extreme upper right-hand corner of Exhibit 427? - -Mr. STOVALL. That is one of the personnel--in our bookkeeping and -payroll department, and I could not tell you who it would be, but it -would be one of three people. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is an entry by an employee of your company made in -the usual and regular course of business, is it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it records the date of termination of Oswald's -employment? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. The sixth day of April 1963? - -Mr. STOVALL. He was given notice the latter part of March, and our -company's procedure is to give a fellow a week or 10 days notice prior -to the termination. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his termination prospectively or otherwise discussed -with you prior to it? - -Mr. STOVALL. Oh, probably it was--I would not say for sure whether it -was or wasn't. I'm pretty much of a dog around there when things don't -go right I'm the one that has to do all the yelling, and if a guy -doesn't produce, I say, "Let's do something," and from this basis I -feel the responsibility to say that I probably had something to do with -this termination, not as an individual, but only on his performance as -far as the work standards were concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. What was this man's skill to the extent that you recall, in -these areas in which you sought to train him? - -Mr. STOVALL. He had no skill. He had no training whatsoever. You see, -we employed him only as a trainee and I think we probably started him -at $1.25 or $1.35, or something like that, and automatically we give -a youngster a 10- or 15-cent raise quarterly, but within 6 months, if -they have shown no aptitude, we give up on them and have a parting of -the ways. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is what happened here? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; because we give them a raise doesn't mean that the -person is competent, it means that it is just a system of employment we -have when we start someone on minimum, or generally a 90-day basis, and -we give them a nickel or dime, and then within a maximum of 6 months, -if they have shown no aptitude, we just have to terminate them. - -Mr. JENNER. That's in fairness to them as well as to your company? - -Mr. STOVALL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You also turned over to the Secret Service the application -for employment that Oswald made with Padgett Printing Co.? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. I do not have that receipt with Padgett. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you come to have that, by the way? - -Mr. STOVALL. The Secret Service on Saturday--I made contact with -them--Mr. DePrato--this is his signature and I don't recall the other -gentleman's name, and in our discussion, I mentioned the fact that I -thought this fellow had sought employment with another company, but I -didn't know what disposition had been made of it, and they asked would -I call there, so while they were in my office I called, but there was -no one there and I knew this fellow and I called his home and he is an -astronomer as a hobby and he was giving a lecture to some students, -so I made a contact with the person who was on the phone out here at -the Astronomy Auditorium at the Fair, and he called me and I asked -him could I get hold of this application for the Secret Service and -he said "Yes," he would get it and bring it by, and in the meantime -these fellows had gone somewhere else and I told them I would meet them -Sunday in my office, so I did and gave it to them. The reason I had -it--they asked me to secure it for them. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did? - -Mr. STOVALL. And I did. - -Mr. JENNER. The expression "microdots" does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. No; we have never gotten any microfilming processes -whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, your able employee, Mr. Graef, has given me -a good deal of detail and has been very helpful and likewise you have -been. Is there anything that I have failed to bring out here because I -don't know about it or haven't been stimulated to do so that you think -might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation? - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe so. There was such a short period of time -this fellow worked for us and he was a constant source of irritation -because of his lack of productive ability, that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please? - -Mr. STOVALL. We would ask him to reduce a line to 4 inches in width, -that happened to be 6, and he might make it 4-1/4 or 3-7/8, and this -was a loss in labor and materials both, and it had to be redone. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this occur with greater frequency than you -thought--than your people thought was permissible, having in mind the -progress which you would expect of him or a man in his position to have -attained? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes; that's true. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his relations with others in the company--other -employees--how did he get along, or did that come to your attention? - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't think anyone liked him or disliked him either -one. He was just one of those people you don't know. If you don't know -a guy, you can't know if you don't like him. That's probably the main -reason we don't like him. Someone made mention in one instance that he -bumped them in a dark room, which is a walkway area, and if a guy's -bent over a tray and somebody else is coming by--he will get bumped, -and it depends on who is doing the bumping, whether you get upset about -it or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it can be done without taking offense to one another? - -Mr. STOVALL. There's nothing at all wrong in it. There's no pain at all -in saying "Excuse me." - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and apparently he was not inclined to do that. - -Mr. STOVALL. It seems that that's so--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had an impression as to whether he was an outgoing -person or a reserved person--keeping to himself? - -Mr. STOVALL. I think he must have been reserved, because the fellows -who worked right with him, no one seems to have had any particular -conversation with him. One guy invited him to go to church and he had -such an unpleasant reception to it that that was the end of that. - -Mr. JENNER. What incident was that--tell us about that. - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, the fellow asked him what his religion was, and he -asked him if he would like to go to church and I don't know what he -said, but that was the end of that. - -Mr. JENNER. He made it pretty clear he didn't want to go? - -Mr. STOVALL. It seems that's the way it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And he didn't want to be bothered by anyone? - -Mr. STOVALL. He didn't want to discuss it either. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; does anything else occur to you? - -Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of--the fellow had a good record of being -on the job, I mean, he didn't have any absenteeism. - -Mr. JENNER. He was prompt and worked every day and had little in the -way of absenteeism? - -Mr. STOVALL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef said that he sought overtime employment; do you -recall that? - -Mr. STOVALL. Only by his statements that he made it known that he was -available to work on Saturday and he simply had a wife and kid and -needed the money and I'm sure that he did, as far as that goes, because -of the rate of pay he was working, living in these times, it didn't go -very far. - -Mr. JENNER. Your overall impression is that he was an industrious -person? - -Mr. STOVALL. He was inefficient--I wouldn't say he was industrious--if -he would have maybe applied himself at least--he was inept in this -particular craft. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We appreciate this very much. Now, you have the -right to read your deposition, and make any corrections in it you wish -and to sign it. - -Miss Oliver ought to have it ready sometime this week, if you wish to -do that. You may obtain a copy if you wish by arrangement with her and -she charges 35 cents a page. - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, is it part of your procedure that I sign your copy? - -Mr. JENNER. No; you may waive it. - -Mr. STOVALL. I don't have any use for it. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have any use for it and you don't care to come -back and read it for purposes of correction, at least your curiosity -might bring you to read it sometime--other than that you have no desire -to come back? - -Mr. STOVALL. I suppose it is for the corporation--I should put it with -our papers. That is my only reason for wanting it. That--the same as we -are keeping these. - -Mr. JENNER. You have two employees here--Mr. Graef and Mr. Ofstein--do -you want her to write all three depositions or just your own? - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, is the writing she does--is this the only reason it -is for us? - -Mr. JENNER. No; we have it written up for ourselves and that is why you -can obtain a copy at 35 cents a page. - -Mr. STOVALL. If there is some means of getting a copy of it--the only -reason I was wanting it is for the record. I don't care anything about -it otherwise--I suppose it might be of use. If this is out of order or -anything, as far as I am concerned--that's all right. - -Mr. JENNER. It's nothing out of order at all--all she does is for the -small price of 35 cents a page is just a matter of preparing an extra -copy, so, you go ahead and prepare a set, then, and I would suggest -that you deliver it under seal to Mr. Stovall. Do you want all three or -just your own? - -Mr. STOVALL. If you don't mind I would just put the others in there, -too. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I understand; some people under the circumstances you -are in do obtain copies, so that they can keep them in the corporate -records. - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's from the standpoint of corporate records of all -the interviews and questions and so forth that we have been through on -this--we have nothing other than three receipts and somewhere down the -line in the years to come I would like to have it. - -Mr. JENNER. You will find along the line in these depositions that they -have covered everything that has been covered before and some more. We -are able to probe a little more than those boys. They knew what they -were after but they didn't have all the information that we have now. - -Mr. STOVALL. Well, the men whom I have been in contact with have been -nothing but nice. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; the Secret Service men are always nice. - -Mr. STOVALL. They are gentlemen of the first degree. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I can certify to that--they are very fine and very -helpful, and greatly grieved over this as everybody else is. - -That's all and thank you very much for coming. - -Mr. STOVALL. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. GRAEF - -The testimony of John G. Graef was taken at 9:20 a.m., on March 30, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, please, Mr. Graef? - -Mr. GRAEF. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. GRAEF. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member -of the legal staff of the Commission appointed to investigate the -assassination of President Kennedy, our President, and I think Mr. -Rankin of the Commission sent you, or you have received from Mr. -Rankin, a letter together with copies of the Senate Joint Resolution -137, creating the Commission, authorizing its creation, and President -Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing -its power and also a copy of the procedural regulations adopted by the -Commission with respect to the taking of testimony. - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you appear here voluntarily? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you know from those documents, -is appointed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy, and particularly any facts and -circumstances respecting the involvement of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that -tragic event, and seeks to gain information from those who had some -touch with his life, and we understand you had some connection with -him with respect to an early employment, in 1962, by Mr. Oswald, in -your company--Jaggars, J-a-g-g-a-r-s [spelling], Chiles, C-h-i-l-e-s -[spelling], Stovall, S-t-o-v-a-l-l [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Graef, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Our information is that Lee Oswald was an employee of -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in October 1962; is that correct? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you lived at 522 Browder, B-r-o-w-d-e-r [spelling]? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; that is the address of the firm--Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. - -Mr. JENNER. You reside where? - -Mr. GRAEF. At 7304 Turtle Creek. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. GRAEF. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been a resident here in Dallas for about how -long? - -Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 18 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family, I assume? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been employed or associated with -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. GRAEF. About 10 or 11 years; perhaps a little longer. - -Mr. JENNER. Since your earlier answer that Oswald was employed at -one time in October 1962, by this company, do you have knowledge or -reasonably direct information as to the circumstances leading up to his -employment, and what kind of an employee he was? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you, in your own words, just tell us about it? - -Mr. GRAEF. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, as best you can, so I can get -the whole story of the matter. - -Mr. GRAEF. Fine. About that time--it was, I believe, October, I don't -have any written information in front of me that I recall---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is 1962? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can. - -In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we -found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the -Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone -having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our -photographic department. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as -best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her? - -Mr. GRAEF. I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham. - -Mr. JENNER. What your normal practice is in that respect? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, particularly what you did on this occasion? - -Mr. GRAEF. Being the director of the photographic department for some -time, on numerous occasions it has been necessary for me to call and -ask the Texas Employment and other sources for help in the normal -turnover of employees that come up in any business. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you tell me something about those normal sources, -because we may wish to look to them and see if we can find anybody else -who had any possible contact with this man? - -Mr. GRAEF. Surely. I can't name other employment agencies, but I will -say, private employment agencies who occasionally have called us and -told us that they had someone they thought had ability along our line, -but this hadn't been as successful to us as the Texas Employment -Commission. They seem to have a bigger repertoire of personnel needing -jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a public agency? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. State or local? - -Mr. GRAEF. State; it is a State agency. - -Mr. JENNER. It is here in Dallas? - -Mr. GRAEF. It is here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. The office you called? - -Mr. GRAEF. The office I called--that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume it has offices in other cities in Texas? - -Mr. GRAEF. I believe so; so I called--but to reiterate--mainly our best -source of employees has been the Texas Employment Commission. They have -a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing -with them--they have various departments and in the course of dealing -with them, I became familiar with one person. - -Our particular photographic department is not one that we find -experienced personnel readily, and the work we do is, I would say, -quite different in various ways from ordinary photography, as most -people know it. I will enlarge on that slightly by saying we do many, -many things with letters. For example, we can take a straight line of -type and we can curve it or bend it or twist it or put it in a circle, -for example, and so, rather than just taking pictures of people as -ordinary photographers do, this work which we perform for advertising -agencies and artists in this area is a matter of training, learning -first to use the equipment we have which takes some time, and then the -differences in the material that we use. - -For example, the characteristics of photographic paper, the -characteristics of chemicals that we use, and it is only after learning -and becoming familiar with the equipment and the materials that then -you find out whether an employee will produce the work properly, on -time, and well, and so, it is usually some time before an employee -develops into or either becomes the kind of employee you want. - -In other words, after this training period, and you have spent time -with him teaching him the equipment and the material, perhaps at this -late date, many months by now may have gone by--perhaps he can't--he -isn't careful enough in the job--he begins producing, but perhaps we -will say he doesn't work as hard as you would like, so quite often we -spend a great deal of time teaching someone, only to find out after -some months have passed that he isn't a desirable employee, but is just -one of those things. - -We must, of course, in order to find out if they will do the job, -go through the process of teaching him the equipment and about the -materials, so I've gone into this because it will help later on in -explaining the termination of Lee Oswald with us, but because of these -various facts that I have mentioned, I became familiar with one person -in particular down at the employment office, the Texas Employment -Commission--the agency. - -I, of course, had never met this person, but through phone -conversations I explained after many times what I needed, the type -person I was looking for--perhaps with an artistic background, perhaps -with photographic experience somewhere, in the Army or elsewhere, and I -told her the various attributes that I thought a person should have in -order to make a success of our work. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you try to reconstruct this now--just assume you are -on the telephone now. - -Mr. GRAEF. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. And carry yourself back out there to a year and a half ago? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'll try to do that. So, I called this person -repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over -several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the -type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her -name was Louise Latham. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Texas Employment Agency, do -you know? - -Mr. GRAEF. I don't know--I really don't know--a very charming person -over the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. And, had you put in this call, let's say--how long before -she sent, if she did, Lee Harvey Oswald over to see you--when did you -start out to seek this employee, is what I am getting at? - -Mr. GRAEF. Let me refer to this employee questionnaire. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that have an exhibit number on it? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes, No. 427. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 427. - -Mr. GRAEF. Now, it says here he was employed October 12, 1962, so I -would say probably 2 weeks prior to that time, roughly about the 1st of -October was when I placed the call. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether anybody other than or in addition to -Lee Oswald had been sent you before he came? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't remember the sequence--whether Lee was first or -whether Lee was last. As I recall, there were about two or three--all -of them young men, average young men--Lee Oswald was average. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you have in your files--what do you call that that is -marked "Commission Exhibit 427"? - -Mr. GRAEF. I am holding in my hand this same Commission Exhibit No. -427, and it's an employee identification questionnaire of our firm -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you have had a card, would it still be retained in -your files for the other people you might have interviewed? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. No--I wouldn't. Normally, when the Texas Employment -Commission sends someone over for an interview, I meet them and we sit -down, of course, and discuss their past history, employment history, -and the various personal histories of that person. The Texas Employment -Commission sends a card over from them, telling who the bearer is and -it also has a space on it that says "Was this employee hired?", which -you will mail back to them and "Not hired," and the reason why you -didn't hire them, and in every case, as I recall, the people whom I did -not hire, I would just mark it in the appropriate space and drop it in -the mail and it is returned to them. - -So, of these two or three young men who came to me after--at this -period, about October 1, Lee was one of them and seemed to me to be the -most serious and a shade--I'm searching for the right word--when I say -"serious" and just a shade more determined, perhaps--he seemed like he -had had a slight edge on the other one or two fellows that came there, -and I thought--well---- - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that you personally did the interviewing of all -of these? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Including Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. I had talked with this Mrs. Louise Latham, -it's Mrs.--also--each time she would call. Of course, I would notify -her that I could use another employee and perhaps 3 or 4 days would go -by until she saw, knowing these various things that I needed--she would -call me and say, "I believe I have a young man who looks like a pretty -good prospect," and so I would say, "Thank you." And she would send him -over. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now recited all of the things you indicated to her -in connection with this particular employment or in employment need? - -Mr. GRAEF. I---- - -Mr. JENNER. As to what you were looking for. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Right. - -Mr. GRAEF. So, Lee came over and I met him in the outer office. He -handed me the employment card from the Texas Employment Commission. -This, as I remember, just has a name and address and who sent him, and -then was he hired or was he not hired. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall how he looked--how he was attired, for -example, on that occasion--that's a pretty big order? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes--my memory fails me a little here, but it seems to me -he wore a suit, a dark gray suit, modestly dressed and he was very -businesslike and likeable. - -Mr. JENNER. You say your recollection doesn't serve you well as to his -attire on this particular occasion? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. It could be that he did not have a suit--gray? A collar, or -otherwise? - -Mr. GRAEF. It could have been, yes, but that's just an impression that -hits my mind, but I could very easily be wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. Could he have had a white T-shirt and one of these -lightweight zipper jackets on? - -Mr. GRAEF. No--no, definitely not. - -Mr. JENNER. Definitely not? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection that he had a suit coat on? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes, his appearance was as most young men would appear in -applying for a job--tend to look nice and he made a nice appearance. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. GRAEF. So, he came in---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he have a tie? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He did have a tie? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'm pretty certain he had a tie. - -Mr. JENNER. He gave you a reasonably fair impression? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. At first blush? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--he came in and I met him in the outer -office, and we sat down in the outer office. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you had never seen this man before? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever heard of him before? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the course of that interview -which triggered any thought in your mind that you might have, or could -have heard about him before? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. As an individual? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He remained throughout a complete stranger except to the -extent of your questioning, which elicited some knowledge of him? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's right. He was at that time a complete stranger. I -had never seen him before or heard of him before. He was just another -applicant for a job, is what it amounted to. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mr. GRAEF. So, we sat down and he gave me the card and he told me -his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and we went through the normal job -interview that we give most young men. I know--I don't, of course, -remember--because of the time it has been, the exact extent of our -whole conversation, but I do remember various phases of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Reconstruct it to the extent that you can and avoid to -the extent you can assumption--that something must have happened and -finally give us, to the best of your ability, what you do recall, even -though you don't recall it on the button, so to speak. - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, certain parts of it I remember almost word for word, -and then, of course, other, I think less important parts, I have -forgotten completely. I do remember that--I believe that Mrs. Latham in -the Texas Employment Agency--at the time that she called me, she said -that he had recently been discharged from the Marines. - -When he came in, I found this--that I was just slightly embarrassed -that I had forgotten it, and among the other duties, of course--these -things will happen, and when he sat down and introduced himself as Lee -Harvey Oswald, I asked him where his last position was, and he said, -"The Marines," and I recovered slightly, remembering that I had already -been told this and, to cover up my embarrassment slightly, I laughed -and I said, "Oh, yes." - -I said, "Honorably discharged, of course," as a joke, and he said, "Oh, -yes," and we went on with other facts of the interview. I remember -him--I don't believe he gave me an address. I think he said it was just -temporary where he was staying, or something to that effect. I also -believe at the time he told me he had a wife and a child or a child -coming. I don't remember exactly about that, because I, of course--any -employer is looking for someone dependable and a family man offers -perhaps a little more dependability, needing a position, than a single -person. - -So, that I think is about--I think I did ask him where--when he -mentioned the Marines, where he had served, and I believe he told -me Korea, and I didn't go into it any further. I felt reasonably -sure because he had come through the Texas Employment Commission--I -didn't even think of checking on his honorable discharge--honorable -or dishonorable or questionable discharge. I somehow had just assumed -being through a State agency, that they perhaps had a much larger -file on him, that my going into various details would just be going -over--plowing up ground again, so I just figured--I never even thought -about checking into his discharge or when he had been discharged. -I think he had been discharged sometime prior to this--I don't at -the moment remember exactly when he got out of the Marines or was -discharged, but the impression that was left with me and I suppose he -told this to Mrs. Latham--was that it had been a very recent thing, -because I recall that that's what she told me, and that's what he told -me when he came to me--when I asked him. - -Mr. JENNER. That it had been very recent? - -Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes; it had been very recent, because when I asked him -about his last employment he said, "The Marines," he had just gotten -out of the Marines, and then I recovered, you know, and said, "Oh, -yes," because Louise Latham had already told me this. At any rate, he -seemed the applicant with the best chance of success that had been sent -over. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you go back a little bit? - -Mr. GRAEF. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. What inquiries did you make of him with respect to your -qualifications for this position--his prior experience, if any? - -Mr. GRAEF. None--none. I assumed that--now, he was sent over, if I -remember right--I was also told by this Mrs. Latham, something about -that he had perhaps some photographic experience in the Marines or -there was some--there was some quality there that helped. And I believe -it was that he had had a little bit of photograph experience in the -Marines that might be helpful. In other words, he was a little familiar -with the processing of film and so forth and, of course, this would add -a little weight to his becoming a successful employee. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your recital up to this moment that you are -primarily interested at this point, having in mind the nature of the -business, that this man would embrace ultimately what you were looking -more for--let's say--general character, whether he seemed like a man -who was going to be in this community a while? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether he was sincerely interested in obtaining -employment that you expected to rely upon your teaching--I mean your -company--under your supervision and direction--the teaching and -training of this man for the position which you ultimately would seek -to fill. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; very well put. - -Mr. JENNER. And it might even have been that if this man had no -photographic experience whatsoever, but seemed--well, let's say clean -cut and eager and intelligent, just out of the Marines and seeking to -obtain employment and settle down, that that might have been sufficient -qualifications for you? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes--if, of course, there was no one with any better promise -that came along. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GRAEF. There have been several times when we have needed someone, -when they would send two or three people over, and it was necessary -for us to pick someone who had practically no experience in this work -because you don't find anyone who is experienced in the type work we -do. It is a very highly specialized trade. - -The best you can hope to find is perhaps, and I'll tell you as I told -this Mrs. Latham, the person that stands the best chance of success is -perhaps someone who is industrious, willing to work, and not afraid -of work, who perhaps has some artistic ability, because the area is -opaquing of negatives with brushes and so forth, and possibly has some -photographic experience, where they may know about paper and at least -there will be some processes that they may have already learned or -become familiar with and we won't have to begin from the very beginning. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about photographic paper? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For example, some young man who has had an abiding interest -in amateur photography, in developing his own film---- - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct, and so you see he would become familiar with -quite a few things in his hobby that he would know about when he came -to work for us. We wouldn't have to start from the very beginning and -say, "Now, this is film, and this is paper," and the difference between -the two and start from the very beginning. So, to explain a little bit -about why I didn't make any inquiries, I didn't frankly feel that any -were necessary. - -The fact that he had--that the employment agency had said--told -me--that he had recently been discharged from the Marines, or had -gotten out of the Marines, and the fact that he had backed up that -statement immediately when he came over and said that he had been -recently discharged from the Marines, and I asked him if he had been -honorably discharged, more as a joke, and he said "Yes," he had. To me, -what background was there to check into? Was I going to go through his -commanding officer or his sergeant, for example? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it was a half truth--he had been honorably discharged -and then dishonorably discharged. - -Mr. GRAEF. I wish I had--but the whole thing, of course, seemed so on -the level that I just hoped that he would be a person that could fill -the job. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this interview in the ordinary course of business? - -Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And having in mind the particular position you desired -to train the man for whom you were looking, and having in mind the -work--the background of work of the Texas Employment Agency, you -made, I take it, the inquiries you would normally make under the -circumstances? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There was nothing extraordinary about this? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Out of the ordinary pattern? - -Mr. GRAEF. No--he came in for this interview sometime in the morning, -10:30 or 11:00, and we perhaps talked for 15 minutes. Of course, I took -down his name and whatever information I could get on a piece of paper, -just for my own record, as I did with the other two or three boys that -had come previously or after him, and finally there was no one else, -and so then I had to make a decision, and, of course, I think I threw -this piece of paper away because they were just personal notes that -I had made about the interview, so that I could look back and remind -myself who was who. So, I believe, in fact I am very certain that Lee -called me back--I told him--at the time I interviewed him, I thought I -knew that he had the best chance of the other fellows of doing the job, -and usually I call them and would tell them that they are hired, but I -think in this case that there was no phone and that when I asked him -could I call him and let him know whether he had been hired or whether -he had not been hired--he said, "No, there is no phone" where I could -call him, and I said, "Well, I'll be making a decision perhaps tomorrow -and if you would care to call, I can let you know then." - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't that excite any wonder on your part that there was -no telephone at which he could be reached? - -Mr. GRAEF. No, not really. It's surprising how many of the young men -are in transit or moving--in many, many cases the people that have -applied for the job--it may just be circumstantial, but the people -that have applied for work with me don't have phones. They may have a -neighbor somewhere who they might give, but usually that's reluctant -because the neighbor doesn't want to be bothered and many, many of -them won't have phones, and many, many of them have very temporary -addresses. I mean, it may be a room somewhere where they are residing -for 2 or 3 or 4 days and they are in the process of finding some -other place to live, so this didn't excite any curiosity at all on my -part. The fact that he had again said he had been discharged recently -from the Marines--it seemed entirely plausible that he was trying to -find--he said he had a wife and either a baby--like I say, I don't -remember whether the baby was coming or already here--I think she was -here at that time. I think he said he had a wife and baby. I could -easily see how he would be looking or could have been looking for a few -weeks for better quarters and would not have a phone and would not have -a permanent address. So, this didn't excite any particular curiosity on -my part and I was intent, of course, on finding a dependable employee. -That was my main concern, so, I at this interview felt that he had the -best chance of making a go of this than the other applicants and so I -told him, "I'll be deciding definitely in a day or two. Call me back," -which he did and I said, "Okay, come on in to work." - -Mr. JENNER. So that you were not looking for any special skill. If -the gentleman whom you were interviewing had it, that would be a plus -factor? - -Mr. GRAEF. Correct--correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him the extent, if any, of -his skills with respect to photography and his experience in that -connection, if any? - -Mr. GRAEF. I don't recall; no. I believe I may have--because this would -be one of the normal things I would do in an interview. I think that he -exhibited enough, as I recall--I think he exhibited enough knowledge -that there again--about photography, that there was no curiosity raised -on my part that he didn't know about it. - -I'm almost certain that I generally just asked him one or two things -about it and he answered them satisfactorily, or I would have, because -that's the usual thing--I asked them about these things--artistic -ability, any photographic experience, are you handy with your -hands--they work with their hands a good deal, and all these things -combined, would combine to make a topnotch man provided he worked. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GRAEF. Provided he was industrious and wanted to do a good job. -We'll say he wasn't lazy--at the same time--so the various qualities -I'm looking for in our type of work, in our department, are pretty hard -to find all of them in one man. So, Lee came to work for us--I don't -remember the exact salary; but it was about, oh, somewhere, I think -about $1.35 or $1.50 an hour; somewhere in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that for a 40-hour week? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 427 again, would you -identify the handwriting and block printing on this Exhibit 427, if you -can? - -There appears the word "terminated" with the date 4-6-63, which I -assume is April 6, 1963? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that notation; do you know? - -Mr. GRAEF. I don't know; I don't know. Now, this is my handwriting--the -date employed--October 12, 1962. I am almost positive that this is -Lee's block printing. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"? - -Mr. GRAEF. "Lee Harvey Oswald," and the various data on this card--the -social security number and the phone number. - -Mr. JENNER. In view of your testimony, I'd like to ask you about that. -Now, there is a phone number there--is that LA-1-0692? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In view of what you said that he responded to your inquiry -that he didn't have a phone number, how do you account for how that -phone number got into the blocks there? - -Mr. GRAEF. Into this box here--at the time that I interviewed him, it -was probably--then, I--after this card was written, he may have been -employed here at our place, oh, perhaps a week or two before this card -was brought in to him to sign. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. GRAEF. In other words, I think because of the busy way the -department runs, sometimes days will elapse before we get around to -getting one of these to him and getting his social security number -and so forth. In other words, he came to work and some days may have -elapsed from the time, for example, that we had the interviews, there -may have been some days passed before he actually came to work. Now, at -this time, when I took this information down on my notes, my personal -notes of the interview, there was no phone number, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GRAEF. Now, at the time I didn't notice this at all, but at the -time that this was written, of course--here the phone number is, so -he obviously had a phone number at this time, but he didn't, as I -remember, he didn't, because I didn't call him--I don't believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recognize the handwriting in which that phone -number and the social security number are? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty sure that that is Lee's printing. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, to the left under the heading "Name in full," and -above that is Lee Harvey Oswald, you have testified to that, and the -next line is "Present address." - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There appears immediately above those printed words "3519 -Fairmount," and that is lined out. Do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mr. GRAEF. The "3519 Fairmount," I am certain is Lee's also. - -Mr. JENNER. And above that is 602 Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; now, I don't recognize that handwriting. Now, this card -would ordinarily be kept in the front office; it would not be in my -possession, and so for some reason this is probably one of the office -personnel who wrote this and crossed that--Lee's writing--out and wrote -in this at the top for some reason or other. - -Mr. JENNER. Wrote in 602 Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the next line there appears the word "permanent home -address," and above that is P.O. Box 2915. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know that handwriting? - -Mr. GRAEF. I don't know that handwriting; I don't recognize that. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall his having advised you that he had a post -office box? - -Mr. GRAEF. No--no. - -Mr. JENNER. You were about to refer to a figure number, "Number of -dependents." - -There appears to have been a "2" written in there, and an overlay on -top of that is a "3"? - -Mr. GRAEF. The "3" is mine. Now, I don't know why--I can almost -remember writing that "3" but whether he changed his mind and wanted -it put "3"--that sometimes happens with income tax the way it is--that -may have happened because he first was going to take two dependents and -then decided to change it to a "3"--it was probably about the time that -this was brought in. It looks like my "3" but I'm not sure about it. -I've looked at it and it looks like a "3" that I might make over it, -but I can't recall. I thought I might help a little there but I don't -think I can. Whether he wrote down "2" on the number of dependents and -then decided--when the card was in my possession, when I was going -to turn it into the front office to make it "3", and then I changed -it--that may have happened, but I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it is obviously either a different handwriting or -certainly a different instrument. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a different signature. - -Mr. GRAEF. I was just comparing the pen I used to--used up here and -this may be pencil. No, I believe it is a ballpoint pen. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that card is signed "Lee Harvey Oswald." Do you recall -whether the card was signed in your presence? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; it may not have been. In other words, generally, we hand -this card to an employee and he fills out the whole card and then I -would take it and turn it up to the front office, so I could have been -back in the department working when he filled the whole thing out and -signed it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 427 part of the books and -records of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall kept in the usual and regular course -of business? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And prepared in part by you and the remaining part under -your general supervision and direction? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I would say. In other words, I turned the card over to -the employee and asked him to fill it out with the information it has -on the card. He returns it to me and I turn it into the front office. - -Mr. JENNER. And this particular card, with respect to Lee Harvey -Oswald, to the best of your recollection was made and thereafter -maintained among other books, files, and records and documents of -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as they ordinarily are? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. There is nothing unusual, extraordinary or out of line? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. With respect to the manner in which and the circumstances -under which Commission Exhibit 427 came into existence and was -maintained? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, -is this card now in the same condition it was as of the date of -termination of employment of Lee Harvey Oswald, except for the pencil -notation in the extreme bottom right hand portion of the card on its -face and in which appeared in an encirclement, the letter "D" and the -figure "11"? - -Mr. GRAEF. To the best of my knowledge, it is. I haven't seen the card -since I turned it into the office at the time that he was employed, -so the handwriting that says, "Terminated," there, and that date--I -haven't seen--I mean whether the card has been altered or not I don't -know, because, of course, I didn't see it at any time after that date. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean after the date terminated 4-6-63? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; after "terminated" was written there. I haven't -actually seen the card since the time that he was employed, roughly, -since he wrote the card out and handed it to me and I turned it into -the front office. To the best of my recollection that's the last time I -have seen that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall that this card, at least to the extent -of the name, Lee Harvey Oswald, in block printing and your handwriting -of the date October 12, 1962--that was filled out to that extent at -least in your presence? - -Mr. GRAEF. Mainly, yes. I mean, I may have been in the department and -doing some other tasks, but he sat down and filled it out. I gave it -to him and he sat down somewhere and filled it out and I may have been -moving around somewhere. I didn't actually watch him write it out -word for word and line for line. The reason this October 12 is in my -handwriting--ordinarily the employee fills that out. - -Mr. JENNER. That appears opposite the printed words, "Date Employed"? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; ordinarily, the employee will go ahead and fill that -date in also, but he had forgotten to and this was probably filled out -a few days after he was employed. - -Mr. JENNER. But that is in your handwriting? - -Mr. GRAEF. But that is in my handwriting. I vaguely recall that he had -not filled that in and I said something, "I'll save you the trouble," -and then I wrote that in. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Commission -Exhibit No. 427, the employee identification questionnaire of -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. which has now been identified. - -How long have you been employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 11 or 12--I've almost forgotten--it seems it -was either 1952 or 1953, I came with them. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this an old Dallas firm? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By reputation, how long has it been around here? - -Mr. GRAEF. I believe about since 1922. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this company do any lithography? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general, apart from your particular interests -and work in the company, what in general does the company do? - -Mr. GRAEF. We set type. We have an enormous inventory of all kinds of -type faces, all designs, for example, scripts--roman letters, sans -serif faces--an enormous repertoire of styles from which advertising -agencies and artists can choose to make up advertisements for headlines -or body copy. This basically is our biggest function. We don't do any -printing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you make mats? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it's a rather complete service. We can take an -advertisement from the very beginning and actually carry it all the -way through to the end, to the point where we mail the mats to the -newspapers for insertion, but we don't do any printing as such, of any -kind. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just tell me in a few words something about yourself? - -Mr. GRAEF. Oh, golly--I was born in Chicago, Ill. - -Mr. JENNER. So was I. - -Mr. GRAEF. I went to Lane Tech. - -Mr. JENNER. I went to Lindblom High School, and that's where I -practiced law and have done for 30 years. - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, I haven't been back there for quite some time. I left -there about 1940, after graduating from high school, took commercial -art at Lane Tech, and I went down to Tennessee and worked at the -Kingsport Press designing book covers and also the Holston ordnance -works, and during the very beginning of the war, this was the last--the -Second World War--then I was drafted into the service and served as an -airborne engineer for 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Army? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I spent 2 years overseas and came back to Kingsport, -Tenn., and then the wife and I decided to head west, and while I was -away, she had written various chambers of commerce around the country -and the Dallas Chamber of Commerce did the best job, so we decided to -take a short vacation here and see if I could find work, which I did, -and which we did and I did, and this was in 1946, so we have been here -ever since. - -Mr. JENNER. You were each native born Americans? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -And honorably discharged--period. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this man is employed--carry on. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he regular in his arrival at work? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were his work habits in that connection satisfactory? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I would say he was very punctual in his arrival to -work. He began working under me and I began the process of teaching him -how to use our equipment. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he worked directly with you or under you or -under your supervision and direction? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--that's correct. He was with me a great part -of the time. Of course, there are various times when I couldn't be -with him, but for the better part of the first 3 or 4 months of his -employment--he worked for us approximately 6 months. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you taught him and how you attempted to train -him and in what, and give me also, when you are doing that, his skills -and aptitudes, as you recall them at the beginning? - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, as I have explained, the most we hope for in a -person is that perhaps any past skills they have will help them in -learning our work, but basically our work is so different that there -is no experienced help, and everyone who comes into the department is -automatically a trainee. - -Mr. JENNER. And he fell into that category? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. All our cameras are different from the -ordinary cameras you find in commercial printing shops or printing -establishments. - -Mr. JENNER. Are these portable cameras or fixed cameras? - -Mr. GRAEF. No, fixed cameras--dark room cameras. - -Mr. JENNER. When I used the expression "fixed," I had in my own mind -that they would be these large-size cameras, fixed in the sense that -they would be adjacent to a wall or a bench or a table. - -Mr. GRAEF. Or the floor? - -Mr. JENNER. Or the floor. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And be so heavy as not to be portable or so firmly secured -as not to be removable? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate their size? - -Mr. GRAEF. I would say approximately 8 feet long total length, with 6 -or 7 feet of the front of the camera projecting through a wall, which -on the outside of that wall have the exposure lights to light whatever -you are going to shoot. Then, the back of the camera sticks through -the wall in the darkroom and on the back of the camera, of course, you -place your light-sensitive film and make your exposure this way. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you use light-sensitive film plates? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; ordinary commercial Litho film or Ortho film that are -generally available from large companies. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicate the size of the frames? - -Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 20 by 24 inches. The difference in these -cameras--they are commonly known as modification cameras. As I said -previously, you could take a line of type and twist it or curve it -or stretch it out of proportion. As they are different compared with -ordinary cameras that are used in most places throughout the country -in that they do not have any scales on them. Ordinarily you measure -a piece of copy and you set the cameras on a certain number, and for -example, the same size--if you wanted to make the same size shot, you -would set your copy board on No. 1, and you would set your film carrier -on No. 1, put your film in and make your exposure, and you get a same -size shot, but our cameras have no scales and you have to find visually -and manually your sizes, everything is flexible on the camera. The -boards move---- - -Mr. JENNER. What boards? - -Mr. GRAEF. The copy boards can twist. The film carrier can twist. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "twist" do you mean twist the image? - -Mr. GRAEF. On its axis--actually twist on its axis. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean "twist" as distinguished from "turn"? - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, let me say "turn"--then. Can turn on its axis. The -lens camera can be shifted up or down or to the right or left. There -are various devices that are supplied with the camera, consisting of -prisms through which you can make distortions, various other forms -which can be used to make various complicated bends and waves in type -or illustrations, or what have you. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the bends or waves--when you say bends or waves in -type, you mean you do not bend or twist the copy itself--that is, the -thing to be photographed, but by use of prisms and other distortion -devices, the image implanted on the film is a twist or distortion of -the copy or photograph? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; except we do both. - -Mr. JENNER. You do straight photographing as well as distortion -photography? - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, many times, we will take the actual copy and twist -it. Anything goes to get the final results, whatever has to be done, -for example if we want to make a curved shot of a label, a flat -two-dimensional label, a printed label, and we wanted to curve that -label, we might take an empty tin can and paste that on the tin can and -tip the tin can so that the lens looking at it would pickup the curve. -We would tilt the can to such a degree that the lens in its position -would pickup this curve of the label, and, of course, we would make an -exposure, so anything goes in camera modification. - -You start with the fundamentals of learning film and paper; the -characteristics of them--we have many grades of paper, many contrasts -of paper; we have several different varieties of film; the time -developing these various papers--all of these have to be learned by -an applicant before he can go on to beginning the camera, so it is a -progression of a trade that takes time. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this include color work? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; all black and white. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, all black and white? - -Mr. GRAEF. All black and white. We shoot color copy occasionally, but -we don't do color work. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, when I say color work, I intended two -things--first, color film and secondly, colored ultimate product. - -Mr. GRAEF. Colored film, no; we do not develop colored film and -we don't shoot colored film. We might, in black and white, make a -two-color a set of two-color negatives or something, for example, we -might shoot part of a label and furnish a negative that would print the -black on something and we might furnish an additional negative that -would register with the first, that would print a color. For example, -a colored border around the black copy and we would furnish these two -negatives to a customer and he might print it in two colors, choosing -whatever colors he wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; he could use whatever ink he wished to employ on the -mat? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, do you sometimes use lead slugs? - -Mr. GRAEF. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, the customer would make a lead slug from the mat -and then print it? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. Or, have a plate made, for example, in offset printing -from our negatives--he could burn in plates and which would run two -colors. He could burn his black plate and he could burn his red plate, -for example. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I got you to digress a little bit from telling -us your teaching of Mr. Oswald from his gradual development or -undevelopment? - -Mr. GRAEF. Of course, Oswald was not the first one that has come into -our department, because his wasn't an unusual case. He was just another -employee among many whom I have trained during these years--through -these years. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there others you were training at this time? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Of substantially like experience? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. There were others in various stages of training, but -none who was starting from the very beginning, we'll say, so, of -course, even though he had had--he said he had had experience in -photography, we started from the very beginning because the papers that -you ordinarily use in amateur photography are somewhat different from -the papers that we use in our work. The film that you would use in -amateur photography is different than the film that we use in our work, -so we start from the beginning in every case and this was the situation -with Lee Oswald. - -I began--we'll say for the first 3 or 4 days--he probably followed me -around just to see what went on, learned how to make a print on the -contact frame the way that our customers require, and became familiar -with the routine of the department and little by little he was allowed -to do various things to begin his training. - -This period is rather indistinct because all this was going on--it -isn't a case of being able to devote all of one's time to a training, -at the same time that he was being trained, there was other work that -had to be produced, so he didn't receive--the full benefit, shall I -say, of all of my time. I would say rather, he received just the time -that I could allow him, which I always wanted to give him more time but -never seemed to find that time, so little by little, as I say, this -period is very indistinct, but little by little he learned to handle -the various papers and the films and then we began teaching him how to -work the modification cameras beginning with straight shooting. - -In other words--normal sizing of flax copy and also how to build jobs. -Each man is more or less an integrated supply of the work. The normal -thing in our department is for a man to pick up a job or jobs, go back -and shoot them, develop them, print them, dry them, bring them back up, -cut them out, and bring them back up to the front of the department. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "print them," you mean make prints from the -negatives? - -Mr. GRAEF. Make prints from the negatives on photographic paper, bring -them back up to the front, reorganize them with their proper job -tickets, and then take those finished jobs up to the front delivery -desk. So, Lee began straight shooting--normal enlargement and reduction -of straight copy. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean by straight copy--do you distinguish that -from the--from distortion photographing? - -Mr. GRAEF. Distortion work; yes. Now, the time that it took to bring -him up to this point may have been 2 or 3 months, at any rate. It was -at this time that we began, or he began to make a few mistakes on -sizing. He would take a job back and it might be that his orders were -to make it 4 inches wide and when the final print came up it might be -4-1/4 inches wide or 4-1/8 inches wide and this would have to be done -over. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as much a difference as one-eighth of an inch on -sizing as against an order for, let's say, exactly 4 inches or for -one-eighth of an inch, as the case might be, would make that particular -work unusable? - -Mr. GRAEF. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. This has to be exactitude? - -Mr. GRAEF. Right. This didn't mean that every job was wrong, but -little by little as the days passed and we got into--we'll say--into -the fourth and fifth month of his employment, more and more he was -being relied upon to produce this exact work and there were too many -times--it was his mistakes were above normal--he was making too many -mistakes. Of course, we helped him as much as we could to do a better -job. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression along about this area that the -errors were ones of lack of skill, or do you have a recollection now of -any attributing on your part of those errors to lack of interest, lack -of industry, dissatisfaction with the position--would you give me your -impression in this connection, please? - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, my impression of his mistakes were somehow that he -just couldn't manage to avoid them. It wasn't that he lacked industry -or didn't try. Whenever he was asked to do a job over, he would do it -willingly for me, with no--he would be more perturbed at himself that -he had made an error, so I think he just couldn't--he somehow couldn't -manage to handle work that was that exact. It wasn't that he wasn't -trying or didn't work hard to do the job, but somehow he just couldn't -make it, and now, like I said, it wasn't every job that this happened, -but it was too frequent to allow. There were too many times that these -things had to be made over and they added to the final reason for -dismissing him. - -Mr. JENNER. You carry on--I want this in your own words without -prompting on my part. - -Mr. GRAEF. Sure. Now, this was approximately the fourth month that he -began to be given the responsibility for making these jobs, and it -began to become evident then that he was making these mistakes. We -kept, of course, trying to train him--now, by this time he was working -under other people, and many times he was going through the processes -of doing these jobs by himself and carrying the whole job through as I -have outlined previously. - -Mr. JENNER. This work didn't, I take it, require his creating any -copies? - -Mr. GRAEF. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare copy--I'm talking about you personally? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; very, very seldom. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a department in which advertising copy is -prepared? - -Mr. GRAEF. If you mean by that--like pasting up advertisements? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I mean preparing them. - -Mr. GRAEF. Actually working on layouts and ideas to be used--creative -ideas and things like that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; the body of copy. - -Mr. GRAEF. No; we do for our own firm create small ads and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am getting at, he never reached the point which he -had to do any creating of copy in the sense that I am talking about, -which would then lead you to have some experience with him as to his -use of grammar? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or his skills along those lines? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; now, in the course of his carrying these jobs through -and back in the darkroom, I began to hear vague rumors of friction -between him and the other employees. The nature of our business is such -that we are under pressure a good deal of the time to meet deadlines. - -Mr. JENNER. Time pressures? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; in the interest of teamwork and getting a job out, we -try to tend to overlook things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Things like what? - -Mr. GRAEF. Flareups of temper or an ugly word or something like that -that someone who may be under particular pressure at the time, and -someone says the wrong thing--it might set them off a little bit, so -I began to hear rumors of some of these things happening with Lee, -but it has happened with other fellows also, but little by little, -I mean other fellows who have had these flareups--I have had them -myself--something will happen that will just be the straw that broke -the camel's back, and you will spout off, you know, but this began -happening--I began to hear rumors--I began, and of course, sometimes -the boss is the last to know, and I began hearing that--or began -noticing--that very few people liked him. He was very difficult to -get along with. Other people that worked with him, with whom I had -conversations and Lee's name came up or something came up about Lee, -they wouldn't speak kindly toward him, to say the very least, and -something might have happened between them and Lee that they hadn't -mentioned it to anyone--some word that had been said in an unfriendly -way, that they just overlooked or passed off, but it didn't leave -a good impression with them from then on. Lee was not one to make -friends. I never had any words with him at all. He never countered any -order that I gave him, he always did what I told him to do the way I -told him to do it. It might have been wrong sometimes, but he never was -antagonistic. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, he might not have been able to carry out -your directions, but he tried to do so? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's so. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't mean your directions to him might have been -wrong? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; he was not belligerent to me. Anything that I told him -to do, he did, or tried to do to the best of his ability. - -Mr. JENNER. But you began having the impression, with the increased -intensity, that he was not getting along with employees at his level? - -Mr. GRAEF. Right. I was a witness to one of these flareups which I -had, up to this time, taken not lightly, but passed it off as one -of those things that happen in our department quite frequently, but -I was quite close to one of Lee's flareups. I don't know who was -responsible--whether it was Lee or one of the other workers, so at the -time I couldn't actually reprimand anyone, so I didn't, but tried to -pacify and laugh the whole thing off and make some remark that "Well, -we are all under pressure. Let's get down and let's get on with the -job." Something to that effect. - -Then, the two people went their separate ways but it was quite a -flareup, a sudden flareup of temper--a quick chip on the shoulder thing -that I don't know--I have a hard time understanding people that lose -their temper so quickly. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the impression you had of him? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; at that time--from that time on I did have that -impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was this more an impression you gained from several -incidents rather than one isolated incident? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; of course, I have to take into account the evidence of -all the other people--some of the things that they said and the way -they didn't get along with him and then I saw the way he acted at this -particular time, and I had never been particularly close enough to the -boy so that I knew his personality. He was strictly a worker who was -training and he did the job, or tried to do the job, and so I wasn't -very close to his personality at all until this particular incident. -It was only when he began--after, we'll say, he got out from under my -wing as a trainer and began up to that time--he was following me around -and was doing what I told him and there was very little chance for him -to be alone with anyone and we didn't have any friction for about the -first 2 or 3 months that he was employed, but he then began to be given -the responsibility of doing these jobs himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Himself and with others? - -Mr. GRAEF. And with others. - -Mr. JENNER. But not under your very immediate supervision? - -Mr. GRAEF. Not under my immediate supervision; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this call for him, then, to work and cooperate with -others? - -Mr. GRAEF. Right - -Mr. JENNER. And this was really the first time---- - -Mr. GRAEF. Then, we'll say his personality began to come out. In -the moving around the darkroom, the way you have to be congenial, -cooperative in turning the light on and off as the various stages of -the work progress, you may be developing film and someone may be coming -out of one of our rooms and need the light on and there has to be a -certain amount of give and take in these relationships and it began to -become evident--some of the passages--passageways through our darkroom -aren't particularly wide and everyone has learned to manage. You -can't--you can pass one another, but not without each of you sort of -squeezing by a little bit as you go, and it began to be evident that he -wasn't congenial or cooperative in working with the rest of the people -and moving about the darkroom and so forth. - -Let me see, there was an incident about a Russian newspaper deal--I -was working at my desk one time and I looked over and it was probably -a slack time in our business, and I looked over and Lee was reading a -newspaper, and I could see--it was from a distance of about 8 to 10 -feet, I suppose, something like that, and it was just far enough away -that I could see it was not a usual newspaper, and I asked him what he -was reading, and he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "A what?" And -he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "Let's see it, and he brought -it over and I said something like "What is the action on this?" And -he said, "I studied Russian in Korea." This fit in with his previous -statement when we employed him about being in Korea, when he was a -marine, and he said, "I like to keep up--keep in practice being able -to read the Russian language and study it or something to that effect, -and I said, "Well, Lee, I wouldn't bring anything like that down here -again, because some people might not take kindly to your reading -anything like that." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him the source of this newspaper? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether it was printed in Russia or whether he had -subscribed to it? - -Mr. GRAEF. It seems to me it was the "Crocodile." Now, it might not -have been, but it just seems to me at the time that it was, but, of -course, that too didn't seem particularly odd to me because a great -many people in the country are studying that language these days and -the fact that he had been a marine and been in Korea, according to the -report, it seemed reasonably plausible that he would have learned that -language, or studied it and to me, certainly, of course, I know how -people are and that there might be some--he might be making trouble for -himself by causing suspicion and so forth, by having that newspaper or -at least running around with it, flaunting it, we'll say. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this occur with respect to his period of -employment--this incident? - -Mr. GRAEF. I can't really say for sure, but it must have been about the -fourth or fifth month that he was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a factor in his ultimate discharge? - -Mr. GRAEF. Let me say that didn't help. Taken with the other--his -personality, his not being able to do the job the way he should--when -I say, "His personality," I mean the friction between the other -employees. I didn't--it didn't actually weigh heavily, but it didn't -do his case any good, let's put it that way. I didn't fire him -specifically because he had the newspaper in his hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I put words in your mouth that he was discharged? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; he was discharged. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss this with him? - -Mr. GRAEF. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that, please? - -Mr. GRAEF. His record, as all this has brought out was--adding up to -where he was not a desirable employee. His relationships with other -employees had reached the point where no one that I know of was -really friendly or liked him. His work as we progressed into the more -intricate details of our production, didn't improve and it began to be -evident after all the training that we had given up to this point that -now that he was in a position where he should be able to produce jobs, -actually he was not able to do so, and after a reasonable---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any thought in your mind as to his ability -ultimately to be able to do so? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I reached the opinion that he would not have--he would -never be the kind of an employee that I was looking for, giving him -every chance, you can make a mistake on one job or two jobs, and you -always feel like you must--"Let's try it one more time," and this was -my thought, because after all, there had been several months passed -where we had brought him up to this point and I feel we gave him every -chance or tried to give him every chance to make a success, and still -he was falling down and making these mistakes--sizing errors--and -camerawork. - -When he had to make these things over, he would be mad at himself. He -would go back and shoot it again, but it is obvious that he was taking -twice as long when these things happened to produce one job because he -was having to do the whole thing over again to get it right, that it -couldn't be tolerated for much longer. - -About this time, I think it was in April, we had a fluctuation in -business--it dropped and I thought, "Well, this is the time to let Lee -Harvey Oswald--to let him go," so I called him back into the darkroom -one day and I said, "Lee, business is"---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say this conversation took place in the darkroom, -was the room dark? - -Mr. GRAEF. There were dim red lights. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you call him back in the darkroom rather than some -other place? - -Mr. GRAEF. At the time it was the--I didn't want to embarrass the boy. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a private talk? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Out of the presence of anyone other than yourself and -Oswald? - -Mr. GRAEF. Out of the presence of anyone else--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was one of the reasons for your calling him back -there? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't have a private office. My desk is with the -other people in the production of work, and I don't have any private -facilities where I can talk to someone, and back in the corner of the -darkroom, it is illuminated by red lights. - -Mr. JENNER. Are these infrared lights? Is that what you mean? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; they are just red neon lights that provide dim -illumination, but at this particular spot in the darkroom, I can see -when anyone is within 15 or 20 feet of me, and, of course, I could -lower my voice and not embarrass him when I released him, so I said, -"Lee, come on back, I would like to talk to you." So, we went back, and -I said, "Lee, I think this is as good a time as any to cut it short." -I said, "Business is pretty slow at this time, but the point is that -you haven't been turning the work out like you should. There has been -friction with other people," and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say when you said that? - -Mr. GRAEF. Nothing. And I said, "This is, I think, the best time to -just make a break of it." I believe I gave him a few days, and I said, -"Feel free, of course, to make any calls of the Texas Employment -Commission where you came from originally," and I told him, "I think -you tried to do the work, but I just don't think that you have the -qualities for doing the work that we need." - -And, there was no outburst on his part. He took this the whole time -looking at the floor, I believe, and after I was through, he said, -"Well, thank you." And he turned around and walked off. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion in your career to discharge other -employees? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And recalling the reaction of other employees, could you -tell us your present view or opinion as to your experience--comparing -your experience with the discharge of Lee Harvey Oswald with the -discharge of other employees--was it usual and normal? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I think it was just about the usual. He might have been -perhaps a shade more quiet. There were no questions asked about why I -thought he wasn't qualified. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was aware of it? - -Mr. GRAEF. I think he was aware of it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. No outbursts of any kind? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything said about what might happen if he sought -references in any future employment? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I told him--I volunteered the information. I said, -"Lee, if there is another job that you find, I'll be glad to give -you a recommendation, a good recommendation," because--I told him, -"I think you have tried," and I think he had. It would have been, of -course, with reservations--any new employer that had called me for a -recommendation, I would have had to say something about his relations -with other employees. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would have been somewhat negative? - -Mr. GRAEF. That's correct; but he did try to become a worker. It wasn't -that he wasn't industrious--he was not lazy. He, to the best of his -ability, tried but the ability was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it then from your recital that his discharge -was for the reasons you have given and not because of any past history -that you discovered with respect to him? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And, throughout all of this employment, you had no -information with regard to his past history other than you have related -to us? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do any highly secret work of -any character or highly confidential work? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes, yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map -Service. We do a certain type of work for the Engineers, I believe, but -I couldn't be sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in your department or under your supervision or -direction? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention any scuttlebutt among -employees as to any past history of his? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; I think if it had, I would have in fact--I am very -positive I would have investigated that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of the reports to you, which you have detailed to -me, include anything with regard to any political theories or arguments -or positions that he took as with respect to other employees? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; none. None that came to my attention. There was never -any political conversations that I heard about him or between him, or -that I heard him talking with the people or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I have no more questions. I would like to put, -however, the general question that I do put in all these depositions. -Is there anything that might occur to you that I have not stimulated -to ask you but that you think--any incident that occurred or any -circumstance that you think might possibly be of help to the Commission -in their investigation of this man and of the overall incident we are -investigating? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; I really don't think so. Of course, the whole thing is -just a tragic, unbelievable thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. GRAEF. That you rub shoulders with someone who did such a thing is -just fantastic. - -Mr. JENNER. If he did it? - -Mr. GRAEF. It's just unbelievable--it's still hard to believe that you -were in such close contact with anyone that took part in the events. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything in my off-the-record discussion -we have had, and there have been substantially none, that took place -during that interlude that I have failed to bring out? - -Mr. GRAEF. I might add this--I'll let you repeat that question in a -moment. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. GRAEF. This thought occurred--I was trying to think a moment ago -what I was going to do, because there was something that I wanted to -make mention of for what it's worth, is that at this point during his -employment with us, he was very anxious for overtime work. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this the 4- or 5-month period you are talking about now? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's correct, which if I may assume, he needed the -money. It was invariably Friday afternoon--and Saturday, of course, is -an overtime day to us and quite frequently we run Saturday and Saturday -work we do at time and a half, which comes into play, and in fact, -invariably Friday afternoon he would volunteer and ask if we needed him -the next day. Then, unfortunately, of course, as I have mentioned, his -work didn't come up to the quality that we needed so it was very, very -seldom that we ever brought him in unless we were in a real bad--had an -urgent work that absolutely had to go, but he desperately wanted to be -called in on Saturday for overtime work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his -ability to operate an automobile arose? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; as far as I know, he never had one. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was no occasion in his work when he might have -been called upon to drive an automobile? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you have no impression--I gather--as to whether he -could or could not drive an automobile or how well he might do so? - -Mr. GRAEF. No. The only impression that I have is that he rode the bus -almost everywhere. - -I know--I'm pretty sure he did not have a car and he used to ride the -bus. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, -and ask you to examine those and tell me if the man who is depicted in -those photographs bears any similarity or likeness to the man you knew -as Lee Harvey Oswald? You might spread them out and it would give you a -better view. - -Mr. GRAEF. Very slight; but to anyone who knew Lee, they would -immediately say "No." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him attired in the fashion that the man -shown on those photographs is attired? - -Mr. GRAEF. No; I don't think I ever did. Now, toward the end of his -employment, most of the time he used to wear a white T-shirt to work. I -think he might have had a dark jacket over it. - -Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket--lightweight? - -Mr. GRAEF. Something perhaps--but it was rather dark, I think, but not -like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there in any discussion we have had possibly off the -record which you regard as inconsistent with any testimony you have -given here, and if so, what? - -Mr. GRAEF. Like what, for example? Now, when you say "inconsistent with -any testimony," what do you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, that you might have said off the record -that you were uncertain as to whether--when you first interviewed him -he was, in fact, with a suit coat with a shirt and tie, whereas, when I -asked you on the record you were pretty firm about that sort of thing? - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty firm. No, no; all of this testimony that I -have given you is factual and true. - -Mr. JENNER. There is nothing you have said on the record that is -inconsistent with anything you have said off the record? - -Mr. GRAEF. No--it hasn't been--anything that I have said has been an -opinion or formulations--it has just been--it is just strictly as I -remember it. - -Mr. JENNER. And to your best recollection, I have brought everything -that was said off the record that is pertinent here and have got it on -the record. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions? - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, sir. - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, you are certainly welcome. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition, if you wish to, -or you may waive it. You have that right, and you may waive it if you -wish. The reporter will let you know one way or the other. - -Mr. GRAEF. What is the machinations of getting a copy? - -Mr. JENNER. When Miss Oliver has prepared a copy, you may call in and -find out from Mr. Sanders and come down and read it, as you see fit and -sign it. - -Mr. GRAEF. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, you may waive that. If you wish a copy of your -testimony, you may obtain by arrangement with Miss Oliver. She will -furnish you one at whatever her usual prices are. - -Mr. GRAEF. I think--I don't see any need for it--for signing it. There -it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, as these reports reached you from your -employees, arousing your attention to the fact that some friction -had arisen and was continuing as between him and other employees, -what, if anything, did you do to acquaint yourself better with those -circumstances and in that connection, tell us whether you talked with -others, whether you talked with Lee--in general, just what did you do -in that connection? - -Mr. GRAEF. The rumors of these flareups, we'll say, I heard about them -going back--we'll say, to some 3 months. He was employed with us for a -total of 6 months. For about the first 3 months he was in training and -it was only after this 3 months' period that he began to be in a close -association with the other employees, so about this time, we'll say, -the friction began between him and the other employees. - -Now, several weeks went past--I'm sure--when these things came to pass -and when I heard about them, and this flareup that I witnessed, and I -don't know who was to blame, whether it was Lee or whether it was the -other fellow. I happened to be on the other side of the darkroom at the -time and the two people were both, as I recall, trying to develop film -in the same pan, and one was getting in the way of the other one, and -ordinarily there is no--we don't have any trouble about this. All the -jobs are rush, and you just make allowances and move over a little bit -and both of you get in there together. - -This, I think, is what caused this particular thing, but Lee was quick -to--he had a chip on his shoulder, and he made--who spoke first, I -really don't recall, but somebody said something about, "How about -moving over a little bit?" And the other fellow said, "What do you -mean, I have been here first," and one thing led to another, but it -was over just about as quickly as it began, so this was the first time -that this became evident, but as I said, couldn't actually lay it as it -being Lee's fault. Now, these rumors come to me quite frequently. In -the whole department we may have 18 or 20 people. - -Mr. JENNER. How many people work under you? - -Mr. GRAEF. Directly under me, the day shift is seven or eight, and we -have a few on the night shift also. We work quite close to this other -department--which does photographic work also, and we have a sink on -our side for camera work and then there is a developing sink back to -back, at which this other department develops their work. - -Mr. JENNER. What do they do? - -Mr. GRAEF. Setting type photographically. So, out of these many -people, some of them are more prone to carry tales and others, of -course, and you have to weigh the evidence, we'll say, and some of the -people that had come to me during this time and just mentioned, or -we'll say, scuttlebutt that went around about Lee being hard to get -along with, where, in fact, some of the people are hard to get along -with themselves, so you just had to more or less try to get along -with everyone. We all have to do that and it wasn't until this scene -happened that I saw how Lee's temper worked, but the--the overwhelming -mass of evidence--everyone it seemed no one liked him. - -Mr. JENNER. He had no friends? - -Mr. GRAEF. No friends. - -Mr. JENNER. And he didn't appear to you to seek to cultivate any? - -Mr. GRAEF. By this time, you see, this 6 months had elapsed and at this -time work was suffering and he at this time--it was definite that he -had no friends. Everyone couldn't be wrong, and so all of this evidence -weighed against the decision to keep him on as an employee. - -Mr. JENNER. It culminated in his discharge. - -Mr. GRAEF. In his dismissal? - -Mr. JENNER. All right, I guess that's about it. Thank you. - -Mr. GRAEF. Well, I hope I have been of whatever help I have been. - -Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to inconvenience you in this matter. - -Mr. GRAEF. If I can be of further assistance, please call me and I will -be glad to do what I can. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DENNIS HYMAN OFSTEIN - -The testimony of Dennis Hyman Ofstein was taken at 2 p.m., on March 30, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., counsel for the Commission, and -this is Miss Oliver. Would you rise and be sworn? - -Do you promise on this deposition which I am about to take of you to -tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Dennis Hyman Ofstein [spelling] -D-e-n-n-i-s H-y-m-a-n O-f-s-t-e-i-n. Is that correct? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ofstein, you received, did you, a letter from Mr. -Rankin? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which were -enclosed three documents, a copy of Executive Order 11130 creating the -Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is an order of the President of the United States, -Lyndon B. Johnson. - -There is a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the -creation of the Commission and a copy of the rules of procedure of the -Commission which we adopt. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have learned, from those documents, -is investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy, and to give particular attention to -Lee Harvey Oswald and anybody who had any contact with him during his -lifetime. It is our information that you had some contact with him, or -with people who had contact with him. The Commission is interested in -that contact, and I would like to ask you questions about it, if I may. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Very well, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. First, tell me a little bit about yourself. Are you a -former serviceman? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what branch of service did you serve? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was in the Army, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did you go in and when were you discharged? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I went in in August, I believe, in 1957, and I was -discharged November 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. That was an honorable discharge, I assume? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you reside in Dallas or Fort Worth? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your home town? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time; I was born in St. -Louis and I have lived in Florida for the most part of my life. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you a married man? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in Dallas? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Approximately 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. That would take us back into 1961--in any event? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what has been the nature of your business, occupation, -employment, profession or vocation? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. For the past 2 years I have been with -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman. - -Mr. JENNER. As a cameraman? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your work immediately prior to that, by whom were -you employed? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was working for Sinclair Refining Co. at a local service -station. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald at any -time during his lifetime? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, and in your own words tell the -circumstances under which that acquaintance arose. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well; it was when he became employed by -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman trainee and he was in the same -department I was and due to the fact that I had worked there and knew -a little bit about the job, I was--as well as everyone else down -there--expected to help him and more or less--not supervise, but kind -of keep my eye on him and help him along. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I am 24. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born in 1940? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. 1939, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 1939, and Mr. Oswald's birth date was October 18, 1939, -you--so you were the same age? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were already employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall when -Lee Oswald came there, were you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection as to when that was? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems like it was October or November 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. I have his employment card here--October 12, 1962--does -that sort of square with your recollection? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; roughly. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when you -became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are still employed by them? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were initially a trainee as well as Oswald? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And how did you become employed there? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered -with the Texas Employment Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the -Commission? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any -recollection? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas -Employment Commission? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--go ahead. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent there---- - -Mr. JENNER. And with whom did you talk when you came there? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was there early for the appointment and I talked to -Leonard Calverly, who was the daytime foreman in the camera department, -and he showed me around the place, and he talked to me and told me the -final decision would be up to Mr. Graef. - -Mr. JENNER. That's G-r-a-e-f [spelling]? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He is head of what? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He is a supervisor in charge of the camera department, -and I talked with him at approximately 9 o'clock and he seemed -satisfied--he would give me a try as a trainee, and wanted to know when -I could come to work, and I told him that morning and I went to work -immediately. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any experience in the use of cameras? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not in the same type of camera--no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What experience had you had in camera work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It had been strictly pleasure photography with smaller -cameras. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you done any developing work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had had some darkroom experience? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Very much? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not a whole lot--no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen inquire of you as to your -experience in that direction? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Both of them? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall--I know that Mr. Graef did. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of photography work does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall -do? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It's strictly commercial--advertising type of photography. -We make posters and poster effects and different types of effects -for different advertising media--newspaper, magazines, and so -forth--billboards. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of cameras are employed? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not sure of the brand names we have. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm thinking more of the size, weight, whether they are -portable or aren't portable, or whether they are fixed or aren't fixed. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. They are fixed, they move on a track to determine the size -of the copy that is photographed, and they have fixed mounted lenses in -the walls. - -Mr. JENNER. And you move from one lens to another, is that the way? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; you mount the copy to be photographed on the -board and you move that board, and the board that you put your film -on--to get it different sizes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the character of the training? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Mainly they start you out with doing small jobs--just -normal--what we call straight shots. It amounts to getting a size and -photographing it and developing it, opaquing the negatives, and making -nice clean prints, and then as you progress you do more difficult type -work. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what lithography is, lithographing? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I have heard the term--that's all. - -Mr. JENNER. Making metal plates? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or reproductions? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any lithographic work done by that company? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain--I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do they do any printing themselves? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that kind of work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. They have the photosetter machine which does the printing -on film usually for a transfer to some other surface. They have hot -metal, they have linotype and monotype, and, of course, they have -reprint presses. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were trained to do what? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Strictly camera work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your work extend beyond the taking of the photographic -imprint on a film? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; we were taught also to set filmotype, which is a -process of writing out on a sheet of paper from a film negative that's -already been put into a roll and making words and sentences and so on -and photographing that, also, distortion of negatives and different -types of copy. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you do to the distortion work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they have different processes--they have what they -call perspective, which entails turning the copy board and the film -mounting board at different angles from each other to make one end -look smaller going off at a distance, and they have what is known as -stretches and squats, which entails putting mirrors before the copy -board to make a character or letter taller or smaller and doing circles. - -Mr. JENNER. They would have a magnifying or contracting mirror? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and circles which is done with a circle device -using a film positive to curve a straight line around and, of course, -they have their different reproduction effects, such as the screens and -the halftones. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether this company has done any confidential -or secret work for any agency of the United States? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't know the nature of the classification. I do know -that they do work for the U.S. Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in any of that work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Only during strike--approximately 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald did? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir--I'm sure he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that work confined to those in the plant who are -particularly skilled or trained to do that particular kind of work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald at the time his employment there was -terminated reached that degree of skill? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that is handled by a different department -altogether. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long had you been employed there when Lee Harvey -came with the company? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was hired in March, 2 years ago, 1962--I would say -approximately 9 months. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when he came--about approximately when? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. October 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with him when he became employed? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any social contact with him during all the -period of his employment? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with him because of the employment you -had and the work you were doing and the work he was doing? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become sufficiently acquainted with him that -you either sought to visit him or invite him to visit you, or did an -occasion arise ultimately in which you thought your acquaintance was -sufficient or your interest in him or his wife or both of them was -sufficient that you sought to have some social contact? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. On the day that his employment terminated, I told him -that I hoped he found another job and we would have to get together -sometime, being he was married and I was, and I believe it was -approximately a week later when I wrote a letter to him inviting him -and his wife to come and visit us some Saturday evening and have social -activities. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any response to that letter? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; none whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. From the day his employment terminated to the present, have -you seen him in person? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From that day until the present, had you had any contact at -all with him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; only my attempt at inviting him and his wife to -the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that circumstance? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you know where to write him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He gave me his address--post office box. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the number? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I have it with me. - -Mr. JENNER. You made a note of it, I take it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I wrote it down. - -Mr. JENNER. And you still have it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe so--yes, sir; Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give you a telephone number? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, do you know about Oswald's ability to -operate a motor vehicle? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. None whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your acquaintance reach the point at which he talked -with you some of his past history? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's start back to the time he became employed in October -1962, and you start in your own words and tell us your acquaintance -with him, how that acquaintance ripened, if it did ripen, the nature of -your work with him at the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall plant. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, after he became employed, we worked more or less -side by side while he was training and everything, and the contact I -had with him--it was necessary to teach him how to operate the cameras -and how to opaque negatives and make clean prints and just the general -work around there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right at that point--what was his skill and -acquaintance in that connection when he first started? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he seemed to take a great interest in it as far as -skill went--it was, I would say, at the beginning approximately the -same as anyone else's would have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Little or none? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Little or none; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He did improve somewhat, as far as I could see, but never -turned out extreme quality work such as is required to leave the plant, -and, of course, that is what caused the termination of his employment. -It must have been about January of 1963, that--of course--at the time, -he was having trouble getting along with people. He wasn't the outgoing -type who tried to make friends. You had to more or less stick with him -and be with him constantly to even talk to him freely. He would shove -his way in places, he wouldn't wait his turn at certain machines, and -the reason I got along with him as well as I did, possibly, is because -I am outgoing and I try to get along with everybody, and I believe that -their own disposition is theirs. If I don't like it, I don't exactly -have to put up with it, but I feel that there are people who don't like -me for things I do, so I overlooked most of his bad traits and things -that most of the other fellows got upset about and mad about. And, -we talked occasionally and he wanted to know at one point if it was -possible to make an enlargement of a normal negative there such as is -taken in a small camera and I told him, "Yes," and showed him how to do -it, and he had one picture that he wanted to enlarge. It showed a river -of some sort, with a fairly nice looking building in the background, -and I asked him if that was in Japan because he had been stationed in -Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. He told you he had? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and he said, "No, it wasn't in Japan," but he -wouldn't elaborate on it, and I found out later that it was in Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. How much later did you find that out? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Possibly the latter part of February, or the middle part -of February 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you find that out? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He came down with some Russian literature one day. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian literature--what was the form of this literature? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper, I believe, at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. English or Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Printed in Russian hieroglyphics? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, it was a Russian language publication? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; published in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he show it to you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He didn't exactly show it to me, but it was in plain view. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you look at it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about it that would tend to -identify it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely clearly--it was possibly a copy of the -Soviet White Russian, I believe is what the title of it is, but I -noticed that there--we had a conversation about the paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anybody present in addition to yourself and Oswald? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the substance of the conversation, first? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he saw me looking at the paper and he wanted to know -if I understood anything that was written there, as I had written down -a couple of characters and I told him I read a little and understood a -little, and therefore I asked him if he could read the paper, and he -said, "Yes," he understood Russian very well, and that was possibly the -thing that brought our friendship or acquaintanceship closer to being a -friendship than anyone else's down there. - -Mr. JENNER. You discovered a common interest other than your work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where had you learned to decipher Russian characters? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I learned this while I was in the service. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you stationed? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was stationed in Germany for the active part of my tour. -I was stationed in California for my training and at the various and -sundry other little towns for basic training and temporary status. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take any work in the language school out in -California at Monterey? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that came about? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, when I went in the service I was interested in -radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my -recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly -with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training -I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status -while the agency determined what type training I should have, and I was -given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three -languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I was sent to -Monterey to study. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long were you at Monterey? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. One year. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that entire year spent in the study of the Russian -language? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I assume, with an entire year's study at that special -school of Monterey, you acquired a facility with the language, did you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not as well as I should have; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And why was that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was a little on the young side then and I was -interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to -town and the availability of recreation there deterred my studies. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You acquired some facility in reading Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And some facility in speaking Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this conversational Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What about writing Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; all that was covered. - -Mr. JENNER. And at the end of the 1 year what happened? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent to an oversea duty station in Germany and -completed my tour there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your study of the Russian language at -anytime from the time you left Monterey until the present? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--you told him you could handle -a few characters? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you then tell him about your study of the Russian -language when you were in the Army? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he asked me where I had learned it and I told him -I had picked it up during the time I was in the service, as well as the -German language, which I picked up while I was stationed in Germany, -and I asked him where he had learned to read Russian and he wouldn't -elaborate on it at first, and after a period of time--I don't know how -long--he did admit to me that he had been in the Soviet Union and my -assumption was possibly that he had worked as an agent of the United -States at the first. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you, if he ever did, as to where he -acquired his knowledge of and facility with the Russian language? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He never did elaborate on whether he learned it in the -Soviet Union or before or just how he had picked it up. - -Mr. JENNER. He was uncommunicative on that subject? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. More or less; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him directly? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to converse with him in Russian or he with -you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. We said a few words in Russian to each other--I would -more or less ask him or tell him, "Good morning" and ask him how he -was feeling or some other things like that, and he would respond and -usually make a criticism on my ability to speak the language. - -Mr. JENNER. He would make criticism--was that a friendly criticism on -his part? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It wasn't ridicule? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. And he seemed very happy of the fact that I was able to -speak a little Russian, and he seemed to enjoy that more than any of -the other things down there. - -Mr. JENNER. With regard to your facility with the language, did you -have a greater facility to understand it when spoken by someone else -than you did with reading it or speaking it yourself? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he speak to you in Russian from time to time? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. From time to time--very seldom. - -Mr. JENNER. You say he asked you to help him make an enlargement of a -print or of a film? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a print and he wanted a negative on it, so I -got him a continuous tone negative, which is the type required for -reproduction. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us what you mean by that--somebody has a -positive print? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's what he had? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And it showed a river and a nice building in the background? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he wanted it enlarged? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I shot a negative of it from a masking film, which is the -type film required to reproduce a photograph such as is used by most -people of children or their houses or their cars, and showed him how to -put it in the enlarger and blow it up and the type of paper to use, the -different contrasts of paper, and he made the enlargement of the print. -It was a pretty rough print--it had been torn at one time. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean his print had been torn? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a photograph or a postcard, or was it something that -you were under the impression he had taken? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Himself? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. With a camera--what I would call a Brownie camera? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. After I showed him how to do that, he experimented with it -a little bit and got what he thought was possibly the best reproduction -he could have gotten of it, and several times thereafter he made -enlargements of pictures that he had while he was in the service, -pictures that he said were taken in Japan, showing snow on the ground -in bivouac areas and so on with himself in several of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any more pictures of Russia, taken in Russia? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not that I noticed. If he had any, he didn't show them. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did not have the facility himself to make these -enlargements, you had to show him how to do it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. About what period of time was this with respect to when he -started working and when his employment was terminated? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I would just make a guess that it was about 1 month after -he started, because he seemed interested in whether the company would -allow him to reproduce his own pictures, and I told him that while they -didn't sanction that sort of thing, that people do it now and then. -They do it occasionally and end up reproducing a couple of pictures -that wasn't anything out of the way. - -Mr. JENNER. He did reach a point where he told you something of his -background? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His past history? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that he was in the Marine Corps and that -after he disclosed that he had been in the Soviet Union, he told me -that that had been after his tour of service with the Marines, and -again he wouldn't elaborate on how he was there or why he was there, -and as I say, at that time I presumed he was possibly with the U.S. -Government or on a scholarship basis or some other basis and just -didn't want to talk about it, so I didn't pursue it any further, and I -discarded this idea after I learned that he had a Russian wife. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that develop? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. That must have been about the middle or the latter part of -February of 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He brought it up one day when we were speaking of the -Russian language and I was talking to him about it--or we were talking -together, I should say, about the Soviet Union, and he was telling me -various things about their way of life over there and he mentioned that -he had married a Russian girl, a White Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you tell us now what he said about what his life over -there and his reactions to it--what did he say in that whole area in -substance? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, the main thing--he dwelled on their difference of -life--mainly to do with their food and the habits of the people and the -military installations and the disbursement of the military units. - -He mentioned that they used caviar over there on bread the way we use -butter, because of the lack of butter and dairy products, and how you -would find things like loaves of bread on the tables in the cafes and -restaurants the way we would find salt and pepper over here. He also -mentioned about the Russian guards. At this time he disclosed that the -building in the photograph was some military headquarters and that the -guards stationed there were armed with weapons and ammunition and had -orders to shoot any trespassers or anyone trying to enter the building -without permission. - -He also mentioned about the disbursement of the military units, saying -that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry -divisions and various units the way we do in the United States, that -they would have all of their aircraft in one geographical location and -their tanks in another geographical location, and their infantry in -another, and he mentioned that in Minsk he never saw a vapor trail, -indicating the lack of aircraft in the area. He also said about the -Russian people that they were sentimental or serious people and -somewhat simple, that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; I just wondered if you misspoke--you said they -were sentimental and serious, did you intend both of those words? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was more or less searching for the right words. I -remember he said they were simple and more or less serious minded. They -were more mindful of world events than he thought the American people -were, but that they didn't have the war hysteria, as he called it, that -the people in the United States did. - -He said whenever you saw any indication in the Russian newspapers of -war, that the Soviet people thought it was relatively close because of -the lack of publication about it, such as at the Lebanon crisis and he -mentioned that he had been in Moscow, I believe, and a couple of other -cities other than Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he name any others besides Moscow and Minsk, did he -name any others? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He possibly did, but I don't recall what they would have -been. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that he did mention some others, -though you cannot recall the names; or, are you uncertain that he did -mention any others at all that he had been in? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not extremely certain at all; it's possible that he -did. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; when you were speaking freely without any -prompting on my part, you mentioned Minsk and Moscow and others--now -that I have pressed you a little, what is your present recollection on -that score now? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. That he had mentioned them, but exactly what they were, -whether they were large towns or whether they were small towns--I don't -recall--whether he just visited them or had some purpose in being -there, he never did mention that at all. - -He mentioned that he was in Moscow for the May Day parade at one time -and that the Soviets made a big show of power of their latest tanks -and planes and so forth, and I asked him at one time about his freedom -of movement, and he said that he had complete freedom of movement over -there, that the MVD, I believe it was, had inquired of his neighbors -about him and had talked to him on one occasion or two, but that they -didn't put any holds on him or restrict him from any areas or anything -like that, and I believe it was about this time that he mentioned he -had married the White Russian girl. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about where the Russian girl he married -was? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to where she was? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. My impression was that he was living with her--that he had -her here in the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. But he didn't say anything that would lead you now to think -or recall the statement on his part that she was with him in the United -States, or is that an assumption on your part? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he did mention it. He mentioned that he had gotten -several books from the library at times to take home for him and his -wife to read. - -Mr. JENNER. In his discussions of life in Russia, to the extent you can -relate them, did he ever voice any political doctrine or theory? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression as to how he regarded his life -in Russia? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he didn't think it was the type of life that he -wanted to lead. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he expand on that to any extent? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that the people there were poor, they worked -and made just about enough to buy their clothes and their food; that -the only ones who had enough money to buy anything else, any of the -luxuries in life, were those who were Communist Party officials or high -ranking members in the party, and I asked him at one time if he were a -Communist and he said, "No." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he voice any criticism of the Communist Party -members--did he make any negative remarks? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No; only that he didn't think that he would enjoy the -Communist way of life. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views to you with respect to his -reaction to the Government of the United States? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No; he mentioned the last day he was with -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall--I asked him what he was going to do, where he -would go to work, and he said he didn't know. He liked the type of work -at the company and that he would like to stay with this type of work -and he would look around and if he didn't find anything else he could -always go back to the Soviet Union, and sort of laughed about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that comment of his with respect to returning -to the Soviet Union was jocular? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was sort of a flippant remark--"If I don't get -a job here, I can go someplace else," and I mentioned at the time to -him of a couple other shops around town that did that kind of work and -suggested that he go see them. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his response, if any, to that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he might give them a try. - -Mr. JENNER. This was at the tail end of his employment with this -company? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; this was the last day. - -Mr. JENNER. How did he appear that day or react to the news which he -received that his employment was being terminated? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed like he was calm, just like any other day except -that he told me this was his last day with the company and more or less -like it was just the end of the job and he was going to try to find -another one. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything of whether he had been let out or -whether he had quit? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He just said he had been relieved from his duties as -cameraman. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express any resentment in that connection? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When he first came with the company, how did he get along -with his fellow employees? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not very well--just enough to talk to the people who were -working alongside of him to learn what he had to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did those conditions or relations improve as the months -went along? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; they worsened. - -Mr. JENNER. They worsened? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they worsen before this Russian language newspaper -turned up, or did they really begin to worsen when the Russian language -newspaper turned up? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. They worsened before this. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him every day that he worked? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you worked? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had some interest in him as a person? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for the difficulties he had with -respect to fellow employees, and why did those relationships worsen? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, we work in a rather tight area. There is little room -to move around in the darkroom, just about enough room for a man to -stand by the developing trays and allow one person to squeeze behind -him and get by, and he would make it a habit of just bursting through -there head-on with no regard to who was in the room if anyone was -there, and also we were required to get proofs of the work we had done -on a Bruning machine, which is somewhat like a Thermofax--it works on -the same principle of making a proof of it or a copy of it. - -Mr. JENNER. I tried a patent case against the Bruning Co., so I know -what their machines are. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. But the other department with which we shared the Bruning -machine requires a little more delicate work with the machine, as their -proofs are proofread. Ours are just for further use in case a job comes -back and we need to know what was on the job. He would burst in there -and if someone else was on it, didn't make him any difference, he would -go ahead and put his work through and, of course, this made people mad -about it. - -Mr. JENNER. How would you describe all this, that he was inconsiderate? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And selfish and aggressive with respect to himself and -impatient with the rights of others? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I think he thought he had the right of way in any -case, either that or he was just in a hurry to get through, and through -his hurrying be made no regard for anyone else's well-being or anyone -else's jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I never heard him ask anyone to go to lunch with him, or -no one, including myself, that I recall, asked him to go to lunch. I -believe I might have asked him at one time and he always ate alone. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he eat with you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though you asked him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; not a bit. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe I did; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he declined? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And at least he didn't accept the invitation? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice in particular, since you mentioned this -without my prompting, that he did eat all by himself? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I noticed that he didn't eat with anyone in the shop. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not a friendly person, then? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He wasn't an outgoing person. I thought he could be -friendly if, as with the Russian language incident--there was something -in common, something that he would take an interest in. - -Mr. JENNER. But he made no effort to develop things in common with -others; is that right? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had an attitude of -resentment toward anybody or anything or his lot in life? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely or exactly resentment. I would say he didn't -get along with people and that several people had words with him at -times about the way he barged around the plant, and one of the fellows -back in the photosetter department almost got in a fight with him one -day, and I believe it was Mr. Graef that stepped in and broke it up -before it got started, but he was also offered rides by Mr. Graef, and -I offered him a ride a couple of times either to his home or wherever -he wanted to catch a bus, and I know that he always declined my offer -of a ride. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in -the evening when he would leave he would say, "I am going up to the -post office to pick up my mail," and a couple of times I would offer to -give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my way and I have -to come in this direction anyway to Live Oak before I turn, which is -only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would -walk. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the subject matter of his experience with firearms ever -arise? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in which he indicated -or in which there was discussion of his ability in the use of firearms? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems that he said while he was in the Marines that he -qualified as a marksman. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is that rating; do you know? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain in the Marines--it differs from the Army, -I am sure. - -Mr. JENNER. What is a marksman in the Army, what level of skill is that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. If I remember correctly, marksman is just barely -qualifying, and "expert," of course, is the top you can go. - -Mr. JENNER. I have read about snipers--are they "experts", is that -their classification? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain, but I'm sure they have to be fairly handy -with a weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is a little uncertain in this area, is it -not? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, with respect to what Oswald might or did say to -you on the subject? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I know he said he qualified and I'm almost certain that he -said as a marksman. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your discussion go beyond that, did he elaborate on it -in other words? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's about the only instance in your recollection in -which there was a discussion on the subject? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his industry, his promptness, his attendance? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed to usually arrive on time and expressed a -desire to work overtime if he was needed, except during the week at -times there were periods when he said he had to go to school and he -would leave with some books, I believe they were typing books from the -library, and he mentioned that he was going to Crozier Tech at night, -and I believe this was one night a week or two at the most. Other than -that, he was there every day, the best I recall, and he did work one -Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have difficulty obtaining Saturday work from the -company? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they go on an experience and seniority basis as to -overtime. The people with more seniority have a choice as to whether -they want to work or not and usually they do. - -Mr. JENNER. To make that extra money? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And also, does skill have anything to do with it--you -mentioned experience--you meant to include in that experience--his -skill for the level of attainment? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he had not reached the point at which all of these -factors combined enabled him to command or be reasonably fortunate in -respect to having overtime work? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Had your skills reached the point at which you had overtime -work on Saturday when you sought it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his aptitudes with respect to the work for which -he was being trained? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He always strived to try to do good. It seemed like he was -fast, but I noticed that quite a few of his jobs that he did perform -did come back within a normal working day. - -Mr. JENNER. More than the normal? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. There are errors always made, I suppose, by everybody? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But your impression is that his percentage of error was -above average? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that in and among your fellow -workers and with Mr. Graef? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was battered around for quite awhile--exactly how -long, I don't know. About the way that he was turning out a lot of -work, because it had to be redone, therefore wasting company materials. - -Mr. JENNER. And time? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and they had decided, I believe, it must have -been a month before they finally let him go--to dismiss him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the general scuttlebutt around the place? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That he was reaching the end of his employment? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did ever the occasion arise when you learned anything with -respect to whether he was ever able to operate an automobile or ever -owned one or got in one to drive it? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; every time I saw him on the street coming down -this way after work he was walking. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever bring any of these books to work--books as -distinguished from newspapers? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall if he did or not, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a Russian newspaper that elicited this discussion -between you as to the use of the Russian language, or was it a book? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper. - -Mr. JENNER. Not a book? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you tell him where you had learned Russian? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just said while I was in the service I had -picked it up. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time ever say or did you ever get the -impression that he had studied Russian while he was in the service? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression was what in that connection? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, that he could either have learned it while in the -Soviet Union or at a school. - -Mr. JENNER. At a private school? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; private or public school. - -Mr. JENNER. But not while he was in the service? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he never led me to believe that. - -Mr. JENNER. The information he gave you with respect to the disposition -of military units in Russia--that information was of the character you -have already related--that the tanks were in one area? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other types of equipment in another, and did he -tell you where these various units were? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. The best I recall, he mentioned that, as I say, that he -never saw a vapor trail of a plane around Minsk, and he mentioned the -location of the tanks, but I am not sure whether he mentioned whether -it was north or south. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. In the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. In relating this to you, was it in terms of his having seen -these units? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. That was the impression I got, though he never directly -said so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--after you learned that he was -married to a Russian woman--did he say anything to you about how he had -met her and courted her or any of the circumstances with respect to his -marrying her? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was just that he had married a Russian citizen? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And brought her to this country? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his military career? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he had served in the Marines and that he had -served in Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his discharge from the Marines? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way when you first met this man, had you ever heard -of him before or anything about him to your then recollection? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did he say about the military dispositions? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he felt it was a rather poor way to distribute the -military because of the fact that support needed by one type of unit, -such as the infantry, needs tanks--took such a long delay because they -had to move it from another segment of the country and that he thought -this was a rather poor situation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about the location of the--these -units--were they widely disbursed, that is, let's take a tank unit--did -you get the impression that the tank unit would be located far away -from Minsk or near Minsk? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he said the tanks were in the north and I'm not -familiar whether Minsk is in the north of Russia or not? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression they were not in Minsk, however? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say, if anything, about units that were located -in and about Minsk? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. The only thing he mentioned along that line was the -military headquarters and to the best of my recollection, it was a -secret police. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the--is that what you mean by the secret -police, the NVD? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, that they had a headquarters there in Minsk? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comment about the MVD? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that they had inquired about him several times and -that they didn't follow him around. He said they were somewhat like our -own Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever make any comparison that was, you thought, an -attempt at being invidious with respect to the FBI as against the MVD? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he just said that their operations were somewhat -similar in checking out people they wanted to check on. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that, did he ever say anything about the FBI? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his observations that regarded, -for example, an area in which he could see jet contrails, whether he -would also find nearby, or even at a distance, any other military units? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said if he saw tank treads of tanks, that -he wouldn't see aircraft or infantry units nearby, and that if he -saw contrails, it was the same as the infantry units, that they just -wouldn't intermingle them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about what had led him to make -these observations? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, as I said earlier that he had never seen any -contrails, he said, in the Minsk area and that he had been in Moscow -and I presumed he had seen the type units that were stationed at Minsk -and possibly at Moscow. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any work done at Jaggars-Chile-Stovall with the -use of microdot? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what a microdot is? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. That was explained to me by Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He asked me one day if I knew the term "microdot", and I -told him, "no", I wasn't familiar with it and he told me that that was -the method of taking a large area of type or a picture and reducing -it down to an extremely small size for condensing and for purposes, -such as where you had a lot of type to photograph to confine them into -a small area, and he said that that is the way spies sometimes sent -messages and pictures of diagrams and so on, was to take a microdot -photograph of it and place it under a stamp and send it. I presumed -that he had either read this in a book or had some knowledge of it from -somewhere, but where, I didn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this conversation occur with respect to the -termination of his employment? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. This was possibly 2 or 3 months before. - -Mr. JENNER. So, this was after the time that the Russian newspaper had -shown up? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it after the time you learned that he married a Russian -girl and brought her to this country? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That occurred afterwards? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What reaction did you have when Oswald talked about--raised -the subject of microdots and their use or possible use in espionage? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I just thought that as far as he was concerned, it was -possibly another phase of photography and that he was interested in -it. It has since, come up down at the company--the use of microdots -and the different techniques, but we are still not employing those -techniques and I thought possibly that he might have also, as I have -several times, come to read things about microfilm and, of course you -see it in these science fiction movies of space travel and so--the use -of microfilm, and I presumed this was along the same lines. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it ever arouse in you any alarm or any doubt? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just thought it was possibly a passing piece of -conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Here again you didn't become suspicious or concerned? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to anybody about that incident? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. After Oswald was released from employment, I -did ask the recruiting sergeant for Army security here in town, who I -was stationed with overseas, about the possibility of getting the FBI -to run a routine check on him because of the fact that I have done -security work, and the fact that I also--this was just before I wrote -the letter to Oswald inviting him and his wife over--due to the fact -that I wanted to keep my record clean. Well, I didn't suspect him as -being a spy or anything like that--I just wanted to make sure I was -with the right company, and he told me that it was probably nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. You wanted to inquire not only with respect to him but also -whether you were with the right company? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, sir, I wouldn't jeopardize losing any chance of -getting a security clearance at anytime I needed it. - -Mr. JENNER. And, Sergeant Crozier, did you say his name was--I believe -it is Sergeant Geiger. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. His first name is Tom--I can't remember his last name now. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, is it Kriegler? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Kriegler--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He had been in the service with you, you had served -together? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, he reassured you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that it was probably nothing to worry -about. - -Mr. JENNER. When you discussed this Russian language newspaper with -Oswald, was there anything said as to the source of the paper? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not immediately. I believe it was possibly about 2 months -before he left--I asked him where he got the paper and I said that -I wanted to find a little more up-to-date material to study Russian -with, than what you find in the library, and that I had looked around -town and on the newsstands that I saw handling them--Russian language -newspapers and he mentioned that he got it from a firm in New York or -Washington--Victor A. Kamkin. - -Mr. JENNER. That's K-a-m-k-i-n [spelling]? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, he gave you the address in New York City? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. It was New York or Washington--I don't know for certain. I -made an error in my report to the FBI to that respect. - -Mr. JENNER. The fact is you were uncertain, but you indicated to the -FBI more positively? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; whenever the agent came to my home and picked up -the materials, the address was there and we clarified that. - -Mr. JENNER. What materials did he pick up? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, Lee Oswald had given me a Russian newspaper, "The -Soviet White Russian," and a couple of magazines--the one being a -magazine newspaper type thing and one a magazine, and the FBI agent -wanted these--one of them had his handwriting on the back. - -Mr. JENNER. And, those were turned over to the FBI? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI approach you or did you approach the FBI? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. They approached me. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was sometime in December of last year. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was after the assassination? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent to your knowledge ever speak to you about -Oswald anytime prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, other than your talk with the recruiting sergeant, -Sergeant Kriegler, had you drawn the matter to the attention of any -Government agent or agency? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do any of these names refresh your recollection as to the -newspapers or magazines that he had--"Soviet White Russian"? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being what? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. A local newspaper from the White Russian portion of the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. JENNER. And "The Crocodile"? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; that was a--it would be hard to say whether that -would be a newspaper or a magazine. It seemed like it was thick and -stapled as a magazine, but in the form of a newspaper. - -Mr. JENNER. And, then "The Agitator"? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. That was a magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did he speak of these or did he have one or more of -these off and on during his employment, or was there just one occasion -that you saw them? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe the only time he had them down there was one -incident when I picked them up and the other time later on when he -brought these to me with the address of Victor Kamkin. - -Mr. JENNER. After the specific instance about which you have testified, -there was a subsequent instance in which he brought you for possible -ordering purposes, some additional either periodicals or newspapers? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Among which were the names of which I have related to you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. Now, he did mention that "The Agitator" was a -political magazine and that I probably wouldn't want to order. - -Mr. JENNER. He did say that it might well be something you wouldn't -want to order? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of "The Agitator" up to this point? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At no time while you were at Monterey did "The Agitator" -come to your attention? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do they use Russian language newspapers and periodicals, -that is, printed in Russia? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Monterey language school? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender these papers and these periodicals to you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he gave them to me and I told him--I thanked him for -them and told him I would bring them back within a couple of days and I -was going to glance through them and he said that would be all right, -that I could keep them. - -Mr. JENNER. That you could keep them and you didn't have to return them? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You surrendered them to the FBI, did you? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On those--it seems to me you said earlier there was some -handwriting on one or more of these newspapers or periodicals? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Lee Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the handwriting on those newspapers or periodicals -placed on those items in your presence? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe they were--I believe that was the address of -Victor Kamkin on the back of one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald in your presence wrote the address of -Kamkin on some one of these documents? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to have him help you with your Russian beyond -what you have now related to us? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I asked him if he knew any other people who -spoke Russian, and he indicated that he did, that he knew several -Russian immigrants and I asked him at the time if he would be able to -give me anyone's address so that I could speak with them and build up -my vocabulary, and my ability to speak it, and he just kept putting me -off and saying, "In time you'll meet them, in time you'll meet them" -and I never did meet any of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give any reason for his apparent putting you off? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that these people liked to speak with -Americans who had an interest in their language, but they wouldn't want -to take just anyone who went down to the library and picked up a book -and sputtered off a few words. He said they enjoyed having someone -around who could more or less keep up a running conversation with them. - -Mr. JENNER. You thought he was classifying you as one who had a fairly -poor command of the language? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that he had some hesitation about throwing you in with -a group that spoke fluently? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This was not a derogatory attitude on his part? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said with a little bit of study that I could -possibly get in with the groups and speak with them. - -Mr. JENNER. And your feeling is fairly firm that his reluctance in that -connection was along the lines you have indicated rather than a desire -on his part to keep you from that group? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you feel that had you had a better command of the -Russian language he would have been willing to introduce you into that -circle? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he would have; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he had any social contact with any of -the people in the plant? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether he did or didn't? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I feel that he possibly got along with me better -than anyone else down there and we had no social contact. - -Mr. JENNER. He had none with you and you rationalized from that he had -none with anybody else? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That judgment was affected by the fact also that he -appeared not to be getting along very well with others in the plant? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about being a Marxist? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever mentioned? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned the secret police, did any conversation ever -occur with respect to any contact of his with, or any contact by, the -secret police with him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. He said that they talked to him once or twice while he was -there and that was all, but that mainly it was just like the FBI would -be running a check on someone here--they would speak with people who -knew them or who were located around them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything ever discussed during the period he was -employed about any particular problems of his in Russia, first, let me -say this--any attempt on his part to defect from the United States and -become a Russian citizen? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Any illnesses on his part? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Any difficulties he may or did or might have encountered in -connection with his return to the United States? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or of his getting his wife out of Russia? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his getting out of Russia discussed at -all? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the problem with the Cuban nation or with Mr. Castro or -any of Castro's activities ever discussed? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; at one time when they were having a little -difficulty down there. I don't recall just what the difficulty was at -the time, but I made a rather derogatory remark about Fidel Castro's -ancestry, and he never seemed to get upset about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You just got no response out of him at all on that? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Just a sort of a shrug of the shoulders. - -Mr. JENNER. I noticed there was a discussion between you or he with -you, at least, about keeping to yourself the fact that he had been in -Russia? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there such an incident? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about it--how it arose, what the -circumstances were, and what he said and what you said? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was the same time that he informed me that -he had been in the Soviet Union--he mentioned that he didn't want it -to get around, at this time--this was the time I got the impression -that possibly he had been an agent--what was a fleeting impression--and -I remarked later that apparently he had told someone else down there -because someone mentioned it to me about his having a Russian wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this before he told you he had one? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; this was after--in fact, I believe it was -after he had been released from employment, but at the time that he -did ask me to keep the fact that he had been in Russia to myself, I -presumed that I was the only one that knew anything about his Russian -activities, that he had even been in the Soviet Union or had a Russian -wife. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder if this would sort of refresh your -recollection--Victor Kamkin Bookstore, Inc., 2906 14th Street NW., -Washington 9, D.C.? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that seems like it, that seems like it. - -Mr. JENNER. That sparks your recollection--with Washington, D.C., as -distinguished from any other city? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write Kamkin? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I got several catalogues from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever order any Russian literature from him? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you think might -be pertinent to the subject matter of the Commission's investigation, -which I haven't prompted up to the moment? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. As directly related to the assassination? - -Mr. JENNER. Well--either way--you feel free to say. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge--no. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the subject matter along the lines -that I have questioned you that is in your contacts with Lee Oswald -which have not been brought out, that you would like to tell us about, -which you think might be helpful? - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Nothing that I can recall. As I say, most of the things -that he did tell me--I thought were mainly in the lines of conversation -and nothing more, and that he never made any political advances one -way or the other or gave his own political views. I mean, he never -told me anything derogatory about the United States or about the Soviet -Union--just that he had resided there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, if you wish, you may read your deposition and -make any corrections in it and sign it, or you are of liberty to waive -that if you wish. You can do whatever you want--either way, but you -have the right to read it and correct it if it needs correcting or -additions and to sign it. I would like to know either way so that in -case you decide to waive it, the reporter has a kind of a certification -different from the kind that is put on when you elect to sign it. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are entitled to a copy of the deposition if -you wish to purchase one from this young lady, and you can make -arrangements with her in that respect. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine. I will waive the right to sign. - -Mr. JENNER. And if at anytime you want a copy of your deposition, call -Miss Oliver and if you happen to forget her name, talk to the U.S. -attorney and he will give you her name. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much for coming. - -Mr. OFSTEIN. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JOSEPH LE BLANC - -The testimony of Charles Joseph Le Blanc was taken on April 7-8, 1964, -at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Charles Joseph Le Blanc, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, -wrote you last week advising that we would be in touch with you -concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he included with his -letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which -I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of -the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that -correct? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand, Mr. Le Blanc, that you were employed by the -William B. Reily Coffee Co., the William B. Reily Co. more precisely, -and still are. - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you were employed by that company during the time -that Lee Harvey Oswald was also employed by it. Is that correct? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details, would you state your full -name for the record, please. - -Mr. LE BLANC. Charles Joseph Le Blanc. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Le Blanc? - -Mr. LE BLANC. 2824 South Roman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans? - -Mr. LE BLANC. New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, sir? - -Mr. LE BLANC. November 1, 1929. New Orleans, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived here in New Orleans all of your life? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I lived in Metairie for--oh, I would say all but -the last 10 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you moved to New Orleans? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? - -Mr. LE BLANC. William B. Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how long have you worked for them? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Nine years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity are you employed by them? - -Mr. LE BLANC. What do you mean? What I---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Maintenance man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You work as a maintenance man? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in that job? - -Mr. LE BLANC. General maintenance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You keep the machinery in running order? - -Mr. LE BLANC. The machinery and different office equipment that needs -to be fixed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of machinery do they have over there? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Packaging machinery for the coffee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For packaging coffee? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do they grind the coffee up too and mix it and blend it? - -Mr. LE BLANC. They roast it, grind it, and then it goes into these -hoppers, and then down to the packaging machinery. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is packed in cans or in paper sacks or---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or both? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many maintenance men, approximately, do they have -working over there? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Let's see; four. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Four? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, four. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the usual number that they have? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, that is about it mostly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee Oswald was employed by the Reily -Company? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, as best you can recall, when you first met -Oswald and what your relationship with him was, what kind of a person -he was, what he did. - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, when they first hired him, well, they brought him -to me, because I was to break him in on his job, so I started the -procedure of going--start from the fifth floor on down, work a floor -each day with him to take and get him broke in on the job and start -showing him the routine, how to go about greasing. The first day, I -mean when I was showing him, it look like if he caught on to it, all -right, if he didn't, it was still all right. He looked like he was just -one of these guys that just didn't care whether he learned it or he -didn't learn it. And then after I took and--we usually go by the week, -because usually after a week anybody with any mechanical knowledge, -there is nothing to it, because all it is is finding the grease and -oil fittings and we put him on his own. I put him on the fifth floor -and told him to take care of everything on the fifth floor and I would -be back shortly to check. I would take and put him up there, and about -a half hour or 45 minutes or so, I would go back up and check how he -is doing. I would go up there and I wouldn't find him. So I asked the -fellows that would be working on the floor had they seen him, and they -said yes, he squirted the oil can a couple of times around different -things and they don't know where he went. So I would start hunting -all over the building. There is five stories on one side and four on -the other. I would cover from the roof on down and I wouldn't locate -him, and I asked him, I said, "Well, where have you been?" And all he -would give me was that he was around. I asked him, "Around where?" He -says, "Just around," and he would turn around and walk off. On one -occasion when I was in the shop and I was working on some sort of piece -of machinery--I can't recall what it was at the present time--and he -come in the shop and he was standing there by me and watching me, and I -asked him, I says, "Are you finished all your greasing?" He said yes. -So he asked me, said, "Well, can I help you?" I said, "No, what I am -doing I don't need no help." So he stood there a few minutes, and all -of a sudden he said, "You like it here?" I said, "What do you mean?" -He says, "Do you like it here?" I says, "Well, sure I like it here. I -have been here a long time, about 8-1/2 years or so." He says, "Oh, -Hell, I don't mean this place." I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He -says, "This damn country." I said, "Why, certainly, I love it. After -all, this is my country." He turned around and walked off. He didn't -say any more. And then after that a lot of times I would be looking for -him and the engineer would be looking for him, and on quite a number -of occasions when it would get to be a coffeebreak time, we usually go -next door to the Crescent City Garage to get a Coke, and there he would -be sitting in there drinking a Coke and looking at these magazines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a regular break time? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the shop? - -Mr. LE BLANC. We had 9 o'clock in the morning and 1:30 in the evening. -Each one of them was a 10-minute break. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you usually start work in the morning? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I started on different hours there for awhile. For -awhile when he was there, I think I was around 8 to 5, and I pretty -well stayed those hours as long as---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there? - -Mr. LE BLANC. While Oswald was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Except for the break periods, you were supposed to be at -your job---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the plant? - -Mr. LE BLANC. In the plant. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now what kind of supervision did Oswald have in his work? -You said that you took him around and tried to teach him how to do -the job, but then after you finished breaking him in, at least as far -as the fifth floor is concerned, he would be pretty much on his own, -wouldn't he? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. I mean from the--I started him on the fifth, and -then he would work his way on down to the first floor. See? The way I -broke him in, I told him, "Make sure that you have got everything on -that one floor," and I said, "If it takes you a day to do it, let it -take you a day," I said, "but make sure that you have got everything -greased and oiled and cleaned." And that is what he was supposed to do, -and I told him, I said, "Then if you get finished the fifth floor, or -whatever floor you are on, you can always work to the next floor." And -then in the evening at 3:15 when the lines were shut down, we had these -three machines that had to be cleaned, oiled and greased every day and -sometimes twice a day--it all depends on how they ran--and he had to -see to it that each evening at 3:15 they was cleaned and greased. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did he have anybody keeping track of him as a general -proposition? He really didn't, did he? I mean, he was just---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the majority of the time he had somebody over him, -but as a practice, I mean after you got broke in on your job, well, -they wouldn't look after you, keep looking after you. They figured, -well, you knew your job and you would go ahead and do your job. But -after awhile, well, they seen he was drifting off. Right to the last -day before they let him go, why, we kept an eye on him, because we seen -then that he wasn't doing the work that he was supposed to be doing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He really wasn't doing the work? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't greasing the machines? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. And you see, we have a greasing log that when you -grease the machine you log it the day that you grease it, and actually -a lot of times I think he might have put stuff down in the log that he -didn't even get to sometimes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just so I can get an idea of what kind of work he was -doing, how were the machines greased? Did he have a grease gun or cups -and---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; well, we have an air grease gun and we also have -these hand-type grease guns. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you used just regular Alemite fittings and grease -guns? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So I would imagine from time to time he ended up with the -grease on his hands and it was a greasy job? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; it was a dirty job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain about that? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, he would complain now and then. I would tell him, -well, that goes in with the job of oiling and greasing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now was he just basically an oiler and greaser, or was he -classified as a maintenance man? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different thing? - -Mr. LE BLANC. He was hired as an oiler and greaser and helper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have any kind of mechanical proficiency -at all? I mean, could you tell? Did he seem to know his way around -machines? - -Mr. LE BLANC. It didn't look like he had. I think--I mean I don't -know--I think he had that in his application, that he was mechanically -inclined, but it didn't show up that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Oswald that you -can remember? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, he was a boy of very few words. He would -walk past you and wouldn't even ask how you are doing, or come and -talk, like a lot of us, we would stop and maybe pass a few jokes or -just talk a little with each other, but him--I think it was 3 months -that he was with us--still, I think if he said 100 words to me, it was -plenty, because even when I was breaking him in he wasn't the type boy -that would ask you different things about the machines. I was doing all -the talking and he was just looking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did these absences of his occur pretty much all the time, -or did it get worse as he stayed there? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, toward the last it begin to get pretty regular, and -that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thing I -recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would -just [demonstrating] just like a kid playing cowboys or something--you -know, he used his finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow!" and I used to -look at him, and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!" - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you thought? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot"; -right off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, -as a joke, you mean, or---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, -because he--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If -you would walk past him, he would do that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he smile or laugh, or what? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. -That is what used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in -a joking manner, at least they would smile, but he was one that very -seldom would talk or would smile either, and that is why I could never -figure him out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other associates or people that -worked with him closely in the plant, or would you say that you -probably worked with him as closely as anybody else? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I imagine I was about the closest, myself and the -other maintenance man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The other maintenance men? There were three more? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, there is the engineer, and they had this other boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the engineer is Emmett Barbe--I think you all have -a statement from him--and then the other boy was Arturo Rodriguez. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of Mexican or Puerto Rican background? - -Mr. LE BLANC. He is Mexican, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was associated with Rodriguez -outside of the plant at all? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any way of knowing? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever talk to you about his family? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; that was something he very seldom talked about, and -myself and the engineer, Emmett Barbe, we always were talking about -our families. He had quite a bit of sickness and I had quite a bit of -sickness, and a lot of times we would be talking about our families -and kids and Oswald, he never would bring in his family, and it was a -good while after he was employed with us that I actually found out he -was married, because I didn't think he was married because he never did -talk about his wife or kids or nobody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lunch break---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the day, you had a lunch break? - -Mr. LE BLANC. We had 11 and 11:30. Now at that time I don't know -whether we just had the 11:30 or we had two breaks--I can't recall--but -I think it was two breaks, lunch breaks, 11 and 11:30. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald eat lunch with anybody? Do you remember? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Not that I know of. He had never eaten with me, I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you usually have lunch? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, myself, I bring mine; but most of them that don't -bring their lunch, they usually go down to the corner restaurant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald bring his lunch, or did he eat in the -restaurant? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, no; I think he went down to the corner restaurant a -lot of times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that Martin's Restaurant? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Martin's; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what he used to have for lunch? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how much he spent for his lunch? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a place is Martin's, a pretty inexpensive -place or---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. It is a reasonable place for regular factory--most all -the factory workers around there eat there. It is pretty reasonable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form any opinion of Oswald? You mentioned -that you thought he was probably a little bit of a crackpot or somewhat -of a crackpot for playing this game with his fingers like he was -shooting a gun, but just generally what did you think of this guy? - -Mr. LE BLANC. I just--I used to always think--I didn't know whether -he was right or whether he had troubles on his mind or what. I mean, -I couldn't actually figure what was actually wrong with him, because, -I mean, we would go on break and sit on the driveway on the bench. -Usually among the maintenance--we always usually a lot of times sit -together and we would talk over the job or something, but he would sit -on the bench, and he looked like he would be staring into space, and -sometimes you would think he was looking right at you, and if you would -happen to go to say something, he wouldn't answer you. Looked like that -is how far his mind was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to be thinking about something else? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; and looked like his mind was far away at all times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There weren't any of the men there that, as far as you -knew, he ever really talked to---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or anyone he ever opened up to in anyway? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald with the men over there since -the assassination? - -Mr. LE BLANC. What is that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked about Oswald with the other maintenance -men or the other men at the plant? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, we hadn't talked very much, because we -just--we left things as was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversations with anybody that you can -remember, speculating as to whether Oswald really did this or whether -he was capable of it, he was that kind of a guy? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the most talk was around the plant a lot of times, -that they thought he was actually too stupid to actually pull something -like that. They didn't think he even had enough brains to pull a -foolish thing like that, because that is just the kind of a person he -looked to be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly intelligent or---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be interested in his surroundings or just -sort of a---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. Like in his greasing records, one time something could -be spelled right, and just a little ways away he might have to use -the same word and it would be all misspelled. I don't know whether he -didn't know how to write or he just didn't care how he put it down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever question him about that or indicate to him -that he was misspelling words? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, on a couple of occasions I told him if he could -write plainer, it would be a lot better for me to check, because a -lot of times if something would go wrong with a machine, we would go -to that greasing log and check when is the last time it was greased, -and when you would look at his writing, it would be like Greek, you -couldn't hardly understand it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, he would look at you and turn around and walk off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wouldn't say anything? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Wouldn't say nothing. That is what used to get me. I used -to--if I bawled him out about not greasing something, ordinarily a man -would tell you, well, I will try to do better, or, that is the best I -could do, or something like that, but that is what used to get me so -mad when he would give me no answer whatsoever, and that is when I told -him one day, I said, "You are going to end up driving me crazy if I am -going to have to keep up with this guy, because he don't give me no -answer whatsoever if I bawl him out about his job or anything." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you tell that to--Mr. Barbe? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I think it was Barbe I told that to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is a sort of a--what--engineer, plant engineer? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; he is the plant engineer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned to Oswald the misspellings in the -words that---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; I didn't mention misspelling. I figured, well, maybe -the boy can't spell so good, and I figured, well, as long as it was -close, I might be able to understand it, but there was a couple of -occasions he would put things down and I would have to actually ask him -what it was, because it wasn't nowhere near the name that the machine -would actually be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed that sometimes he would spell things -right and sometimes he would just spell them wrong? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Sometimes he would spell them wrong and sometimes he -would spell them right. That is what I couldn't understand about him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Mr. Barbe or anybody? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; when Mr. Barbe noticed it was the day after the -assassination when the agent was there and we were trying to get all -the possible information we could get off of it, you know, and that is -when we got the greasing records of when he was there and went through -them, and that is when he seen a lot of misspelling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether those records were turned over to the -Secret Service or the FBI? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; they were turned over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The greasing records were? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember -about Oswald that you think might be helpful? I am about out of -questions myself. Do you have anything else that you remember---- - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or that you think I should have asked you about? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in that case, I want to thank you very much for the -cooperation that you have shown us and for your patience. - -Mr. LE BLANC. Any way I could help. I was glad to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Le Blanc, both -personally and on behalf of the Commission. We appreciate it very much. - -Mr. LE BLANC. Because before he was killed, I told the investigators -that if there was any way that I could help them to solve this -thing--because we was pretty well shook up about it to think that -somebody at our place, that worked at our place, had to pull a stunt -like that, and we were out to get down to the bottom of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald talking politics with anybody, -or did you ever talk politics to him yourself? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; around election time or anything like that, sometimes -a conversation or something would come up, but he never would bring up -a conversation about any politics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard him say anything about President Kennedy? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any question come up as to racial problems -or integration problems? He never expressed himself on that? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any Negro employees over there at the plant? - -Mr. LE BLANC. Oh, yes; there is a number of them, quite a number of -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald demonstrate any particular animosity toward -them, or did he seem to treat them differently from the rest of the men? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; he went along just like if they was white, I mean -just the way he went about with us, not saying anything. That was the -same way with them, looked like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't think that he was either--that he felt -particularly differently about the Negro employees than the other men? - -Mr. LE BLANC. No; it didn't look like it. You know what I mean, with -his attitude. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think we have covered it. Thanks a lot. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ADRIAN THOMAS ALBA - -The testimony of Adrian Thomas Alba was taken on April 6, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -A witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God, -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Alba, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized -staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority -granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and -Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that -I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, -and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and -the resolution referred to, together with a copy of the Commission's -rules of procedure governing the taking of the testimony by the -Commission? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning any knowledge you -might have of Lee Harvey Oswald which you might have gained as a result -of, as we understand it, his habit or practice of coming into your -garage, which is, we understand, located right next door to the Reily -Company on Magazine Street, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go into detail, will you state your full name -for the record? - -Mr. ALBA. Adrian Thomas Alba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. ALBA. In New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. ALBA. January 20, 1931. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment at the present time? - -Mr. ALBA. Crescent City Garage, auto garage. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you owner of the garage? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, part owner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. ALBA. I am an officer in the garage. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you regularly located at the garage itself? Do you -work out of the garage? - -Mr. ALBA. No, right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right there? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of the garage? - -Mr. ALBA. Auto storage garage primarily. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The address of the garage is 618 Magazine Street? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is right next door to the William B. Reily Coffee Co.? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever become acquainted with or observe in your -garage Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. ALBA. Through conversations and Outdoor Life magazines in the -office--I have a coffee pot there, and a coffee table, and some chairs, -and a magazine rack, where he frequented the magazines quite often and -drank coffee. And I have a coke machine there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this fellow, did you tell us what his name was? - -Mr. ALBA. All I knew him was as "Lee." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just Lee? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a gun enthusiast, is that -correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that you kept in your office in the garage various -magazines relating to outdoor life and guns? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss guns with you? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what he said, and what you said on the -subject? - -Mr. ALBA. He pursued the issue of ordering guns, and how many guns had -I ever ordered, and how long did it take to get them, and where had I -ordered guns from---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. What did you tell him? Just tell us the -conversation that you had with him. - -Mr. ALBA. I told him that I had a gun on order at the present time, -a U.S. .30 caliber carbine, and he asked had I received the gun, on -several occasions, after that. I told him no, that I hadn't. And he -asked me would I consider selling him the gun if and when I got it. I -told him no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything peculiar about this particular rifle -that made Oswald want it? Or why did he want you to sell this rifle? Do -you know? - -Mr. ALBA. He told me he had a couple of guns, and he would like to -have the carbine. He was familiar with the carbine from the service, I -believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this was the regular M-1 carbine? - -Mr. ALBA. Regular M-1 carbine, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From whom had you ordered that carbine? Do you recall? - -Mr. ALBA. Through the National Rifle Association. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you what other kind of rifle or -weapons that he had? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. He did make a remark that he had--I think he -said he had several rifles and several pistols, but he did not go into -the nature of the arms, or how much, or what they were. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any interest in any rifle that you -indicated that you had, other than this M-1 carbine that you told him -you had ordered? - -Mr. ALBA. One 30.06 Springfield rifle that I had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have that? - -Mr. ALBA. I was in the process of sporterizing that at the garage at -the time---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that particular weapon? - -Mr. ALBA. He said what was it worth to me, and I told him it was worth -over $100 to me. There was no followup on that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this particular rifle that you have referred to, a -Japanese rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. No; it wasn't. I had a Japanese rifle down there that was -not for sale, and he was more partial to the Japanese rifle than the -Springfield and the carbine put together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was really interested---- - -Mr. ALBA. He was more interested in the Japanese rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you already sporterized that? - -Mr. ALBA. That was completely sporterized. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do to a rifle when you sporterize it? - -Mr. ALBA. Alter the stock, eliminate some of the weight, and the length -of the stock, because it is a military piece to start with, and you -glass-bead the stock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what does that mean? - -Mr. ALBA. To accurize the stock, and you put this where you have all -metal to wood contact in the stock. It is referred to as accurizing, -and sporterizing, and customizing a piece. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about this particular Japanese rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. Nothing other than his desire to possess the gun, or to -purchase the gun from me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by an agent of the FBI? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times were you interviewed by the FBI? - -Mr. ALBA. Twice, I believe. Let me retract that--the FBI came to the -office, I think, three different times. I was never up in their office -or contacted---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this Japanese rifle with them? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall telling them that Oswald was interested -in the number of inches that had been cut from the barrel of the gun? - -Mr. ALBA. I believe I did; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what Oswald said about that? - -Mr. ALBA. No; not other than a general discussion of the trajectory -and the feet per second, and et cetera, and the general accuracy -elimination--I mean elimination of the accuracy of the gun cutting the -barrel off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the effect of cutting the barrel? - -Mr. ALBA. On the accuracy of a rifle; none. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Oswald that? - -Mr. ALBA. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem surprised? - -Mr. ALBA. Not that my memory would--if my memory would serve me -correctly; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have a fairly good knowledge of a rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. He did of the military pieces, the M-1 and the Garand. He -was asking questions about the Japanese rifle and the Springfield, the -1903-A, the A-3 Springfield, inquiring questions about those pieces, -but he seemed to have a very thorough knowledge of the M-1 and the -Garand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned two different rifles, or three -different rifles that he showed a real familiarity with? - -Mr. ALBA. Two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the straight M-1 gas-operated rifle that has -been used by the military services? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the other was the Springfield? - -Mr. ALBA. No, no; the other was the Garand M-1. The Garand M-1 and you -have the M-1 carbine. Both are gas-operated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those are the only two weapons that he showed any -particular or real familiarity with, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he became familiar with these? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give it any thought as to how he became -familiar with these weapons? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes; I did. I assumed that was through the Armed Forces -training. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you anything about that? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he hadn't, other than he had the service behind him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you what branch of the service he had been -in? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Japanese rifle that you said you had completely -sporterized, can you tell us approximately how long that weapon would -be when it is put together? - -Mr. ALBA. Prior to sporterizing or after sporterizing? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Both? - -Mr. ALBA. I took approximately 4 to 4-1/2 inches off of the barrel, and -I think it was left with a 22-1/2-inch barrel, and it had approximately -a 28- or a 29-inch barrel to start off with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you fastened the barrel to the stock, can you tell -us approximately how long that rifle would be? - -Mr. ALBA. I can take a guess--I never really measured it, or any of my -pieces, for that matter, but I would say approximately 55 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can these rifles be readily broken down, taking the stock -and removing it from the barrel? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long would the stock be separate from the barrel in -this Japanese rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. From the butt of the stock to the extreme end of the forearm -would be approximately 20 inches, I imagine, or about 2 feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say that the barrel was 22 inches long, do you -mean that the entire length of the action and the barrel? - -Mr. ALBA. The barrel only, from the breech to the muzzle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how long is the action? - -Mr. ALBA. About 6 inches, 5 or 6 inches. You are asking me questions -now that I have never pursued before for my own information and -satisfaction. These are only approximate guesses. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the effect of sporterizing a rifle generally is to -shorten the overall length of the rifle, is that not right, by removing -a portion of the barrel itself? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct, and the weight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to shortening the overall length of the -rifle, also when you sporterize a rifle you shorten the stock itself so -that when you break the rifle down into two pieces, the action and the -barrel is one piece, and the stock the other piece, and the length of -the rifle broken down, or the two pieces laid together, would be less -also, isn't that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because of the tendency to shorten the stock? - -Mr. ALBA. But that is not the main motive behind it---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; the motive behind it is to reduce the weight of the -rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. The weight; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you whether the weapons that he -had or weapon was a military piece, or whether it had been sporterized, -or anything about it? - -Mr. ALBA. If my memory serves me, he told me he had a few rifles and a -few pistols, and never pursued the issue any further to name what they -were or what they weren't. I don't know whether it is an assumption on -my part or not, and if I am not mistaken he said they were military -arms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate whether he sporterized them or not? - -Mr. ALBA. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display familiarity with the whole proposition of -sporterizing a rifle? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display, or did you draw any conclusions as to -whether he was familiar with this process or not? - -Mr. ALBA. No. And yes; I would say that I had drawn an opinion that he -was not familiar with the sporterizing of arms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations that you and -Oswald had about rifles or weapons? - -Mr. ALBA. None other than he asking permission to borrow some magazines -from time to time. And as far as I knew, they were all returned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of magazines were these? - -Mr. ALBA. Outdoor Life and Field and Stream, Argosy, and hunting and -fishing magazines, and National Rifle Association magazines. And guns -and ammo magazines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever have discussions with you about the relative -merits of a small calibre as opposed to large calibre bullets? - -Mr. ALBA. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are very clear about that in your mind? - -Mr. ALBA. We discussed the wounding effect of combat guns of the small -calibre versus the large calibres, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion? - -Mr. ALBA. Well, the small calibre in the field would tend to disable -a man and require two men to cart him off, versus the larger calibre -which would knock out a man permanently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at an FBI report which indicates that on -November 25, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. -Lester G. Davis, and John William Miller---- - -Mr. ALBA. I remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the report indicates that you recalled an additional -conversation that you had with Oswald in which you and Oswald discussed -the merits of small calibres and larger calibre bullets, and the report -said that you recall that Oswald mentioned that a small calibre bullet -was more deadly than the larger one, to which point you agreed. - -Mr. ALBA. Having been left with a wounding effect you would survive a -larger calibre wound, your chances of survival from a larger or large -calibre wound would be greater than the smaller calibre. We went into -the discussion of basing the thing in the ice pick versus the bread -knife--I don't think I mentioned this part to the FBI--reflecting on -the whole picture that you would be better off receiving a wound from -a 10-inch bread knife than you would be being gigged once with a 2- or -3-inch ice pick, and that reflecting the difference between the large -calibre wound and the small calibre wound. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What led you and Oswald to agree that you would be better -off being hit with a bread knife than with the ice pick? - -Mr. ALBA. Internal bleeding. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There would be more internal bleeding from the ice pick? - -Mr. ALBA. Small calibre or the ice pick; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you both agreed that the small calibre bullet -would be more deadly than the larger one? - -Mr. ALBA. Being left with a wounded effect; in other words, if it was -my intention to destroy an animal I would prefer the large calibre, -but if an animal was wounded with a large calibre, or a small calibre -bullet, I would say that the smaller calibre bullet would be more -deadly in the end than the large calibre wound, and he might survive -the large calibre with an open wound. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the course of this conversation, did Oswald -indicate in anyway whether the rifles that he had were large calibre or -small calibre weapons? - -Mr. ALBA. None other than the weapons were of the military, and I don't -know--that part is an assumption on my part or whether he actually said -it. He went to no length at all in discussing his firearms. In fact, -it was my experience with Lee Oswald that you had to ask Lee Oswald -questions. Either Lee Oswald was talking to you, or he wasn't talking -at all. And I may have asked him what he had in the way of firearms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention that he had a pistol, or pistols? - -Mr. ALBA. If I remember correctly, I think he said he had a few, or a -couple, or two. I am not definite. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of pistols? - -Mr. ALBA. Pistols--he said he had a few rifles, and a few pistols--or -it was a couple, or it was two. I am not clear. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were discussing this question of whether or not -Oswald had any pistols with the FBI, and do you remember discussing it? - -Mr. ALBA. If I made any mention of it, I am sure it would be as I -have just represented it to be. I have no recollection of my definite -discussions with the FBI at the time. I do remember, however, meeting -the gentlemen and discussing Lee Oswald with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald seemed more interested or -was disposed more in favor of rifles than pistols? Or did he seem---- - -Mr. ALBA. Very definitely toward the rifle side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was more interested in rifles? - -Mr. ALBA. Very little interested in the pistols. I had as many as -three or--I think at one time four pistols down there, and Lee Oswald -was very, very keen toward the rifles that were among my sporterizing -projects, and so on; other than the pistols, he had very, very little -interest in the pistols. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you do the sporterizing work on these weapons right -there in your garage? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. And what I didn't do, I jobbed out, that is, -I gave out to gunsmiths. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To what? - -Mr. ALBA. To a gunsmith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had fired these rifles -or this rifle that he owned? - -Mr. ALBA. None other than to ask me if I knew of a place where you -could discharge firearms, that is, close by, without getting in the car -and riding for hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say when he asked you about that? - -Mr. ALBA. My reply was that I joined the National Rifle Association, -and I have been able to shoot on the rifle range. It had been some -years since I had done any shooting along the River Road or the levy, -or anything else like that, and that I am sure that if you attempted -that today, they either would run you off or arrest you for discharging -firearms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention specifically a rifle range where you had -discharged your firearms? - -Mr. ALBA. I believe I did, and I am sure that if I did I told him that -he would have to be a member in order to be able to use the range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What range was it? - -Mr. ALBA. Crescent Gun, Claiborne Avenue, owns the range, and if you -are a National Rifle Association member, then you have the privileges -of belonging to the rifle range across the river, which belongs to -Crescent Gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate an intention to join the -National Rifle Association? - -Mr. ALBA. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this carbine that you had ordered from -the National Rifle Association, you indicated that he had expressed an -interest in buying that weapon from you? Is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. He had an interest very much, and after I told him that I -wouldn't sell the gun, and I had mentioned that I was getting the gun -for approximately $35 through the N.R.A., and that this same gun on the -market would sell from $75 to $100, and he had made the expression that -if and when "you get the carbine, should you decide to sell it, I would -make it worthwhile for you to sell the gun." - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he never spoke of joining the N.R.A. in order to -obtain a carbine such as this himself? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you how much it cost to join the National -Rifle Association? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell him? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much does it cost? - -Mr. ALBA. $5. - -Mr. LIEBELER. $5? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go through these various gun magazines and -sporting magazines that Oswald had looked at? You went through them -after the assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. Had I gone through these magazines that Lee Oswald had -borrowed from me? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ALBA. And had I gone through them since the assassination? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ALBA. Since the assassination the FBI and the secret service took -the magazines off, and I have not received them since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you had read these magazines or gone through them -prior to the time that Oswald looked at them? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left them in your office and Oswald borrowed -some and brought them back? - -Mr. ALBA. Well, we have a coffee urn and a coke machine and some chairs -in there, and a coffee table, and on the coffee table I would say that -I had approximately anywhere from 80 to 120 magazines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't go through them after the assassination -and prior to the time that the FBI and the Secret Service removed them -from your office? - -Mr. ALBA. Would you repeat the---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't go through any of these magazines that Oswald -had looked at after the assassination and prior to the time that the -FBI and the Secret Service had removed them from your office, is that -correct? - -Mr. ALBA. None other than my most current issues that I had recently -received in the mail, such as the National Rifle magazine or "Guns and -Ammo" edition---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those magazines wouldn't have been at Lee Oswald's -disposal because they would have come in after the time he had been -there? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell whether or not the magazines that Oswald -read, or borrowed and read and returned, were still there in the garage -at the time of the assassination, or at the time the FBI came and took -the magazines from you? - -Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald borrowed the magazines and requested permission to -take one or two off at a time, and kept them anywhere from 3 days to a -week, and would make the point of letting me know that he was returning -them. And then a few days later he would ask that he borrow another -magazine or two magazines. I would say that there were anywhere from -three to five definite occasions I do remember of Lee Oswald asking to -take this and that magazine and letting me know that he returned the -magazines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know there was nobody else that would -have removed them from your office, and they would have stayed there -after Oswald brought them back? - -Mr. ALBA. Some of them do disappear from time to time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no way of knowing whether all the ones -that Oswald looked at were in your office when the FBI and the Secret -Service came and picked them up? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the last time you saw Oswald? - -Mr. ALBA. The last time I saw Lee Oswald was when he told me that he -was leaving for Michoud. He had put in an application at Michoud, where -he was going to make the big money, in this town here. He mentioned -that prior or about 3 weeks prior to leaving. - -When he did leave, he came in the office and he says, "Well--" this -was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning, he said, "Well, I will be -seeing you." I said, "Where are you headed?" He said, "Out there, where -the gold is." I said, "Where is that?" He said, "I told you I was going -out to Michoud, and that I had an application out there." He said, -"Well, I have heard from them, and I have just wound up things next -door at the coffee company, and I am on my way out there now." That -again, was approximately--I may stand to be corrected on my timing--but -that was approximately some weeks before the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is this "Michoud" that he mentioned to you? How do -you spell it? - -Mr. ALBA. That's the national air space program, the rockets, out in -Gentilly. That's NASA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an operation do they have there? Is it a -manufacturing operation? - -Mr. ALBA. It is the rocket, the Atlas rocket, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They construct them there, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of work he was going to do for -the organization? - -Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned "Michoud," and is that the name of a city -here? - -Mr. ALBA. Michoud, that's this particular section of Gentilly, Gentilly -section, where the plant is located. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that part of New Orleans proper? - -Mr. ALBA. It is part of New Orleans, part of Orleans Parish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Part of New Orleans itself? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you what kind of work he was doing for -Reily Co.? - -Mr. ALBA. I don't think he ever did, but it was--it was obvious that he -was in the electrical end of the maintenance end of the factory at W. -B. Reily Coffee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? Or why do you say it was obvious? - -Mr. ALBA. He was just like the others there in the maintenance and -the electrical end, and they would wear the electrician's belt with a -bandoleer, screwdriver, pliers, and friction tape, et cetera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he wear that? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this fellow Oswald with anybody at -the Reily Co.? - -Mr. ALBA. Not prior to the assassination, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with people at the Reily Co. after -the assassination? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes, I have. People were coming up to me at that time and -asking me about what had happened to my friend Lee Oswald that used to -hang around the office all the time, as an opening to discuss what had -taken place in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember the name of the people at the coffee -company that you discussed Oswald with? - -Mr. ALBA. The people in general that would come in the office during -the day, as Lee Oswald himself would do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the people that did come in that way indicate they -also had known Oswald while he worked at the coffee company? - -Mr. ALBA. I hadn't realized anyone that knew Lee Oswald, or that that -was the man who worked with them prior to the assassination, but after -the assassination, which might be expected, it seems that anyone you -would talk to knew who he was and had seen him, and so forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any particular people who did, in fact, -seem to know him, or that you think did know him that you talked to -about him? - -Mr. ALBA. None in particular, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the general substance of these conversations? - -Mr. ALBA. Half kidding and half general conversations about, "Isn't it -something, what happened?" And that it happened to be someone that was -right here at work "With us at Reily, and that you knew from over here, -next door." - -Several people, employees at Reily, would tell me that employees at -Reily had told them after the assassination, of course, that Lee Oswald -spent as much time "Over at Alba's Garage as he did over here in the -plant." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to be the case to you prior to the -assassination? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes and no; if that is any kind of an answer. Lee Oswald was -sent for and called from the office on several occasions. Lee Oswald -would come to the office, put a nickel in the coke machine and start -paging through magazines and just lost track of time. Lee Oswald was -not talkative unless he was more or less pursuing the conversation -himself. In fact, if that makes any sense to you---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it seems to you then that he spent more time in your -place than he should have been spending, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct, but certainly not more time at my place -than at Reily Coffee, as some might have tried to indicate to me in a -conversation. But I am sure that it was intended only as a phrase of -kidding. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of complaints from the coffee company -that Oswald wasn't on the job over there? - -Mr. ALBA. None other than from the men themselves that were working -with Lee Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You heard these complaints after the assassination, is -that correct, didn't you? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that he was called from your garage to go back -to the coffee company from time to time? - -Mr. ALBA. There were anywhere from two to four different occasions that -I can remember that someone would come in there and tell him, "Now, -Lee Oswald, they are looking for you over there. If you keep this up, -you are going to get canned." And Oswald would say, "I'm coming. I'm -coming." - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then he would go back to the coffee company? - -Mr. ALBA. He would. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did this fellow impress you? - -Mr. ALBA. He certainly didn't impress me as anyone capable or anyone -burdened with a charge of assassinating the President of the United -States, let alone any individual, for that matter. Our conversations -were purely the gun magazines, the firearms themselves, and little of -anything else. Lee Oswald wasn't very talkative, not to be repeating -myself, unless, of course, he was pretty much leading the conversation -or doing the talking himself, on the same conversation level all the -time--about the firearms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being peculiar in any way? - -Mr. ALBA. Yes; he did. He was quiet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was quiet? - -Mr. ALBA. He was quiet. You could ask Lee Oswald two or three -questions, and if Lee Oswald wasn't apparently interested in the course -of the conversation, he would just remain paging through the book and -look up and say, "Did you say something to me?" I hesitate putting the -conversation back to Lee Oswald pursuing it first, but all you had to -do was mention guns and gun magazines and Lee Oswald was very free with -the conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have an interest in firearms that was -abnormal or extremely great, or anything like that? - -Mr. ALBA. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he was quiet, was there anything -about him that struck you as being odd or peculiar? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't suspect he was a violent kind of person, or -anything like that, the time that you knew him, did you? - -Mr. ALBA. I would answer that indeed not. I had never gotten the -impression from Lee Oswald that he was capable of any plot or -assassination, or what have you, of that nature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And were you surprised when you heard he had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. ALBA. I was very much surprised. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard he had been charged with the -assassination, did it seem to you then that he could have been capable -of such a thing? Or did you hold to your former opinion? - -Mr. ALBA. I think I held to my former opinion. Things I have seen on -television, of course, and read in the newspapers, and so forth, has -laid out some suggestive pattern that Lee Oswald was a subversive, et -cetera, toward the country, and maybe even the President, or something; -but prior to that assassination he gave me no indication at anytime -that he was burdened with such a charge, or that he was concerned or -involved with anything of that nature. He had never at anytime spoken -against the President or the country. He had never at anytime, prior to -the assassination, of course, mentioned communism to me, or anything -suggestive or leading to it, or otherwise. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he mentioned the President at -all, one way or another? - -Mr. ALBA. I think I might answer that with a definite answer--I can't -remember anytime that Lee Oswald had ever mentioned the President, the -country, foreign countries, et cetera. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it customary, or the usual sort of thing for people in -this area to discuss politics, or discuss the President? People that -come into your garage or---- - -Mr. ALBA. Well, the usual trend of conversation in the garage, other -than the garage business or the personal customers' cars or neighbors -that walk in the garage that want change for the coke machine, et -cetera, would be either politics--I would say mostly politics more than -anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the attitude of most of the men toward President -Kennedy? Was he well liked down here, or was he not highly thought of? - -Mr. ALBA. He was very highly thought of for his convictions, for his -stand on his convictions, but he wasn't too well thought of for his -stand on the integration program to the South. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it common for the people to complain about that sort -of thing? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never heard Oswald discuss that? - -Mr. ALBA. Not once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he ever present when the subject was discussed by -others, as far as you can recall? - -Mr. ALBA. I really wouldn't know, or be able to comment whether he was -or not. It's very possible that he was, and maybe on several occasions, -but not to my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never responded in any way? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to show you some pictures that have been -marked in other proceedings, five different pictures marked "Commission -Exhibits 451, and 453 through 456," and ask you if you recognize the -person or persons depicted in these pictures? - -(Photographs shown to the witness.) - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-A," -and ask you if you recognize any of the people on that picture? - -Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald only. [Viewing photograph.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is he? - -Mr. ALBA. Right here [indicating], and this looks like Jack Ruby -[indicating], but I would only recognize him from the television -pictures and pictures in the papers. - -Mr LIEBELER. The picture that you indicated as being Oswald is the man -marked with an "X" over his head, is that correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which has been marked "Pizzo -Exhibit 453-B" and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald only. [Viewing photograph.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is the man marked with a "green mark," is that -correct? - -Mr. ALBA. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the street scene, by any chance? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," -and ask you if you recognize that man? - -Mr. ALBA. That's Lee Harvey Oswald. [Viewing photograph.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you think that the -Commission would be interested in that I haven't asked you about, -concerning your knowledge of Oswald, and your relations with him? - -Mr. ALBA. I wouldn't think. The source of conversations was of a nature -of a neighborhood acquaintanceship, nothing more. He has never been -suggestive toward any other things other than what I have already -discussed with you, as far as his interest in guns and gun magazines -and gun conversations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated any interest in Cuba or Cuban affairs? - -Mr. ALBA. Never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he had been arrested by the New Orleans -Police Department in connection with the distribution of "Fair Play for -Cuba Committee" literature in New Orleans? - -Mr. ALBA. No; I hadn't, but I found out after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he appeared on WDSU television and -debated with some Cubans? You don't know that? - -Mr. ALBA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else, anything else you -would like to add at this point, I have no further questions. - -Mr. ALBA. I would feel free if there was, but I don't think there is -anything further that I would like to add that can be of any help to -you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, on behalf of the Commission I want to -thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown. - -Thank you very much. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF CHESTER ALLEN RIGGS, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., on -May 20, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Tarrant, ss_: - -Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., being duly sworn says: - -1. I am Vice President of Orbit Industries, Inc., 250 Carroll, Fort -Worth, Texas. I reside at 836 Edgefield in that city. - -2. I am and have been prior to July 1 of 1962, the owner of a duplex -house located at 2703 Mercedes Street, Fort Worth, Texas. That duplex -contains two furnished apartments. - -3. Sometime in July, 1962, I rented one of the apartment units to Lee -Harvey Oswald. While I do not keep precise records of the tenants of -the above apartments, since there is a fairly high rate of turnover -amongst them, to the best of my recollection, Lee Oswald and his wife -lived in the apartment from some time in July of 1962 until early -October of that year. - -4. I do not keep records of the rental payable on each of the -apartments. My records reflect only the total rental paid on a number -of apartments which I own in the vicinity of 2703 Mercedes Street. As -a result I am not able to state precisely the rental which Lee Oswald -paid for the above apartment, but my recollection is quite clear that -it was $59.50 a month. - -5. The utilities in the apartment are in my name and are not changed -with the movement of tenants through the apartment. The tenants are, -however, responsible for the payment of the utility bills. Whenever I -receive a bill in respect to any of the apartments I forward it to the -tenants for payment. I recall that the utilities in the apartment at -2703 Mercedes averaged about $12.00 a month during the time that it was -occupied by the Oswalds. To the best of my knowledge Oswald paid those -utility bills directly. - -6. I recall that when Oswald rented the apartment he gave me the -impression he would have no difficulty in handling the arrangements for -the payment of the utilities and other incidental arrangements that had -to be made in connection with his occupancy of the apartment. - -7. To the best of my recollection Oswald did not have a telephone in -the apartment. - -8. Either at the time that Oswald rented the apartment or shortly -thereafter, he asked me to install new curtains in the apartment, -which I agreed to do. While I had no difficulty with Oswald in this -connection he was quite definite in stating that he wanted the new -curtains installed. - -9. I subsequently called at the apartment to consult with Oswald or his -wife concerning the color of the drapes or curtains to be installed in -the apartment. Oswald was not present at the time and when I attempted -to discuss the matter with his wife I could obtain no response from -her. It appeared to me at the time that she was not interested in -having the new curtains. Subsequently I have learned that Marina Oswald -had a limited command of the English language and it now appears to me -in fact that she simply did not understand what I was talking about. - -10. Oswald never mentioned the new drapes or curtains after that time -and they were never installed in the apartment while he lived there. - -11. I do recall that when Oswald asked about the curtains I told him -that I would be willing to install them if he was planning to stay in -the apartment for some period of time. I mentioned this because, as I -have said, there was quite a high rate of turnover amongst the tenants -because of the nature of the housing, which was of a low-income type, -and I did not want to put new curtains in and then have Oswald move out -shortly thereafter. Oswald told me that he had a job with a welding -company nearby and was planning to stay in the apartment for some time. - -12. My own business office is located near the apartment at 2703 -Mercedes Street and I recall seeing Oswald walk to work from the -apartment. To the best of my knowledge Oswald did not have a car while -he lived in the above apartment. - -13. Oswald appeared to spend a considerable amount of time reading. -From time to time I observed him doing that on the steps of the -apartment and he was usually reading when I called at the apartment for -the rent payment. - -14. When Oswald moved out sometime early in October he owed some rent -and had not completely paid for the utilities which he used. I do not -recall exactly what the amount was but it was not very large. - -15. The Oswalds left the apartment in good clean condition. - -16. I do not know where Oswald moved after he left the apartment at -2703 Mercedes Street and I do not know where he lived prior to the -time he moved there. There was no adverse condition in the relations -between Oswald and myself which could have prompted Oswald to leave the -apartment. - -Signed on May 20, 1964, at Fort Worth, Tex. - - (S) Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., - CHESTER ALLEN RIGGS, Jr. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MAHLON F. TOBIAS - -The testimony of Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias was taken at 3 p.m., on April -2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, would you rise and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. M. F. Tobias? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 602 Elsbeth? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Dallas, Tex. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that "M" stand for? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Mahlon [spelling] M-a-h-l-o-n, and the "F" is Forrest -[spelling] F-o-r-r-e-s-t. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the -legal staff of the President's Commission. My file indicates that you -and Mr. Tobias received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel -of this Commission? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate joint -resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission and of President -Lyndon Johnson's Executive order creating the Commission, and also a -copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you have noted from those documents that the -Commission is appointed to investigate and look into circumstances -surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald -Kennedy? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And this leads us from time to time to seek information -and help from people who had some contact here and there with persons -who went across the scene, so to speak, the stage--one of whom was Lee -Harvey Oswald, and we understand that in the ordinary course of your -own life you had some contact with him--you and Mr. Tobias. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right. We are managers of the -apartment house--that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And we would like to ask you a few questions about that, if -I may? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay; I will be glad to help you all I can. - -Mr. JENNER. That is wonderful and I appreciate that very much. Would -you give me just a little bit of your history? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. My history--what do you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native American, and where were you born and so -forth? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I was born in Arkansas. I have lived in Dallas, Tex., -12 years, but I have been all over the United States. I raised my -family in Michigan. I married in Michigan. - -Mr. JENNER. What town in Michigan? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Battle Creek--my husband is from Michigan and I went -there as a bride and I raised my family in Michigan, and we have been -back here 12 years. We have been in Dallas--back in Dallas about 12 -years--well, we have been back about 14 years, but in Dallas, Tex., you -mean, for 12 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband is retired now? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; my husband was in construction and during the war -he worked for the government. We were just all over, but, of course, -he broke his back--it will be 14 years ago in August, and he worked -up until 5 years ago, so he had to give up 5 years ago, and he is on -social security, of course, and that's why we manage these apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been primarily a mother raising a brood of -five boys and a housewife and also help your husband manage some -apartments? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And in connection with the management of the apartments, is -that how you had your contact with Mr. Oswald? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right--he had one of the -apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. Located where? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, he was in 604--602 and 604--just like--this is 604 -over here and 602 is down here and there is one down and one up. Mr. -Oswald lived in 604 and we live over here in 602 and it faces Elsbeth. -Do you want a description of it? - -Mr. JENNER. Let me get a piece of paper and let's draw a picture of it -so I can orient myself. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Are you familiar with those apartments? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I'm not, I don't know a thing about them. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We'll say now that this is Elsbeth--this side runs down -like this and then across. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is north and which is south? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Let's see--this is west. - -Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Let me see now, I want to make sure--there is West Davis, -but we are just on the corner of West Davis and Elsbeth, you see, that -would be west, wouldn't it, still--I don't know my directions. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we will do it this way--is this Elsbeth -[referring to map drawn by the witness]? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This is Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, write Elsbeth in there. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right. [Spelling] E-l-s-b-e-t-h, and this is--Elsbeth -and that side over here is Davis. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, where is Davis Street? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be Davis right there. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't you draw a line there for Davis? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. There's one apartment down and one up over that one--this -would be Davis over here. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, write "Davis" there. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right--right here is Davis. Now, Davis faces west, so -what would this direction be--this is direct west and east--Davis is. - -Mr. JENNER. Davis runs east and west? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--east and west--and let me see--Elsbeth would be north -and south, wouldn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. - -All right, let's put the directions on here--put an "N" up here and an -"S" down at the bottom. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right; I will put an "N" and an "S" down here. - -Mr. JENNER. And then put an "E" for east and a "W" to your right for -west, and the "E" is to your left. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how many apartments do you have in this building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten. - -Mr. JENNER. There are 10 apartments? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what are they--two-room, three-room, four-room? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Three. - -Mr. JENNER. They are a three-room apartment and they are all three-room -apartments? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All three room. - -Mr. JENNER. And you and Mr. Tobias occupy one? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we do--we have apartment 7 over here on Davis. You -see, we live on Davis and this is Davis, like I drew it out here, you -see, and we live on Davis. He lived over here--he lived over here at -602, and do you want me to put 602 there? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; put 602 there--is it 602 Davis? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it's Elsbeth, but--shall I mark that out--this side is -602 over here, and this is 604 over here. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, put the 604 right under the apartment No. 2. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you want me to strike over that? - -Mr. JENNER. No; no, you are fine--604 is an entrance into apartment -604, is that right? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And they occupied apartment 604? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. They had No. 2 right on the front. - -Mr. JENNER. They had two apartments? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; No. 2. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, No. 2, right on the front. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Right on the front. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Elsbeth Street, and is that the first floor or the -second floor? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. First--apartment 2 is downstairs and ours is the same -across the front on the ground. - -Mr. JENNER. Is yours on the first floor also? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How many floors in this building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Two floors--this one has one down and one up--you see, one -comes down like this and one is up like this. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "one down and one up"? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you see, up over these now, this is a 2-story -building. - -Mr. JENNER. There are apartments above each of the apartments Nos. 602 -and 604? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. That is not true at the opposite end, the west end? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Here, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This one right here is No. 6 and over it is No. 10. Do you -know what I am talking about? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I will figure it out in a minute. I take it the -entrances to the apartment building are on Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And there are some apartments in the rear that go all the -way through, do they? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We have a back entrance and a front entrance. Now, my back -entrance goes out on Davis and my front entrance comes out into this -patio, and also would Mr. Oswald's come out into the patio. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I am interested in that. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He has two entrances, remember now, that he could use. - -Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what we will do--I'm going to mark this -"Tobias." - -May the record show that Mrs. Tobias has been drawing a plat of -the apartment building on Elsbeth Street which I have now marked -"Tobias--No. 1." - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, she has drawn a rectangle, and the north side is Davis -Street, the east side of the rectangle is Elsbeth Street. Now, Mrs. -Tobias, you correct me if I am wrong. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be south, wouldn't it--yes--that would be -south--he lived on this south side. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias is pointing to the area of the plat which is -marked "S" or the side opposite to that which is marked "N." - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The figure 604 underneath the word "Elsbeth" appearing on -the east line of the rectangle is the apartment occupied by the Oswalds. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. 604--apartment 2. - -Mr. JENNER. Apartment 2. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was on the ground floor? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's on the southeast corner of the building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live in a similar three-room apartment on the -northeast corner of the building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--602--that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. So, we will draw a little square in there, representing -those apartments. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there are altogether how many apartments in the -building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm going to write 10 apartments on there. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, those apartments run back from interiors, or one after -another, back from Elsbeth Street. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. They have front entrances and rear entrances? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance to your apartment is from Davis Street? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Davis Street; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance from the Oswald apartment is from where? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. From the driveway, and that would be south, wouldn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. There is a driveway that runs along this way [indicating]? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. It's a private driveway? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, it is; it's private, it goes to the apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we'll call that "private driveway." - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right, and they are not allowed to park, you know, -for any length of time--just for moving in and moving out, and here is -a back door out here that is into that driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. So, his rear entrance was from the driveway? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Which I have so marked. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you spoke of a court, did you not? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, I didn't--I said a patio. - -Mr. JENNER. A patio? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. A patio--in between--this side and this side (indicating). - -Mr. JENNER. In between the south side and the north side? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. We call it a patio, you know, there is a -front entrance with each having their own and then, of course, we have -cement there in that entrance and there's lots of shrubbery. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this open to the sky? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; oh, sure, it's open. These buildings are all solid, -what I mean, there is nothing like--what do you call these--a -breezeway--there's nothing like that. It's just open in between 604 and -602, if I am making it clear? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, you are. Between your apartment on the north side of -the building and their apartment on the south side--it is open? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. There is no roof over that area? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; there isn't. - -Mr. JENNER. And you call that a patio? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that's what they call it--I guess that's what it is. -I think it is a patio. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just trying to locate it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's what it's called--a patio. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, I'm not trying to make any comment about it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's what they do call it, though. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we'll call it a patio--does the patio run from -where? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. From Elsbeth back to this. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we will make that a dotted line--back to the -rear of the building, which is the west end of the building, correct? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Right. Now, there is no entrance for them to go out here. -They got out over here--they come out into the hallway and into 602, -and then, they have a back entrance. This one apartment--there's a back -entrance only for that No. 10--no one else has a private but that No. -10. - -Mr. JENNER. How private is that patio? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's just an entrance leading out to each house--an -entrance. - -Mr. JENNER. If a man were in that patio with a firearm or a weapon or a -rifle and he were dry sighting--do you know what that is--dry shooting -it? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, holding it up, not loaded, but practicing the -trigger and sighting, and what not, would he be noticed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's visible--that's what you meant? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. There's an awful lot of shrubbery out there in front of -our window, the front window, and also--there's just an awful lot of -shrubbery. It would be noticeable--sure, if you were up in the front, -you would see it, but sad to say, I don't see very much from my front -window because it's just loaded with shrubbery and the trees are quite -tall--quite high. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this patio area which runs the length of the building -from Elsbeth Street back west--that is an open space and it's open -right up to the sky? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. During any of the time that the Oswalds occupied Apartment -604 and were your tenants, did you ever see Mr. Oswald in the patio -area with a weapon? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. A firearm? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I haven't. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether in the patio or elsewhere? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him appear out there--I never seen him -with any gun. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he had one while he was there? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I didn't. I didn't hear that. I suppose we would -have been real frightened, but we didn't--he did have an awful lot of -trouble with his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, it is true, then I gather, from that chance remark -that you made that if you saw him with a weapon that would have alarmed -you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I think it would have because he was kind of an odd kind -of a person. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were you in the office when that apartment was rented, -did you have the first contact with him? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came in our house. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't you tell me about that? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the night he came over to rent the place---- - -Mr. JENNER. It was at night? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. In the evening--yes, and then he didn't take it, but he -wanted to look around. He asked my husband if he might look around. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband was home? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were home? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in the evening? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anybody accompanying him? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; just Oswald, my husband and I. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he always seemed to wear slacks and just a T-shirt. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that on this occasion he was so -dressed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Just a jacket and slacks and I just can't remember if he -had on a T-shirt or if he had on a sports shirt or a dress shirt that -night, but he wanted to see the apartment. My husband took him over, -because we don't like to rent the apartments in the evening--we don't -have to, but just a lot of times my husband will go ahead and show -them, because they said we don't have to after 8:30 or 9 o'clock. My -husband took him over and showed him the apartment and then he asked my -husband if he could look around and my husband said, "sure." - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald wanted to look around the apartment or look -around the building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He wanted to look around the building. He wanted to go -around the building. So, he looked at the back entrance, the way he -could get out the back entrance--now, that back entrance will go out, -like I told you, this driveway--it will take you out onto Davis. - -Mr. JENNER. The back entrance? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. The side entrance--his side entrance, we'll say. - -Mr. JENNER. He was looking at the back entrance of his apartment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, he went all through the back. - -Mr. JENNER. His apartment, which came in from the driveway? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This is a driveway and down here in the hallway is the -door. He wanted to see around in the back, he wanted to see the -arrangement of the building, and how it was. There is a driveway that -comes up off of Davis and back in here of the slab that they can park -on. Of course, Mr. Oswald never had a car, and it just goes off onto -Davis, but that is that driveway where I told you--this driveway goes -all the way around onto Davis. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the driveway, which up to the moment I have limited -from Elsbeth Street--it turns and goes out into Davis? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. The driveway completely goes around. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm going to mark the west end of the driveway also--is -that correct? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. The driveway goes out into Davis--that's correct. So, it -was a week later before he came back to rent it. - -Mr. JENNER. He waited a week? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You told him what the cost was? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, my husband told him that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about money at that time--did you make -any inquiry as to whether or not he was working, where he worked? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; Mr. Oswald was very quiet. He had very little to say, -so when he came back, he told my husband he had a wife and child. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, I was there when he rented it. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you there when he made this statement that he had a -wife and child? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, and when they came in--I didn't see anyone for quite -some time, perhaps 10 days or 2 weeks, and I said to my husband, "I -thought he told us he had a wife and child?" He said, "Well, he did." - -We don't know when he moved in because he could have used that driveway -to the back door--you understand what I mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. And then, I suppose it was about 2 weeks and then he got a -phone call. - -Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me, I would like to stay with a few of -your earlier statements at the moment. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. When he first came and made the inquiry about the apartment -and made this short tour around the place--it was at night? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. When he wanted to see the back door. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about his prior history then, whether he -was married, not married, whether he had children--whether he had been? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, he had a wife and a little girl. That's all we ever -learned. We didn't know whether they came from Fort Worth or anywhere. -We didn't know where he came from because he was very quiet mouthed. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't you ask about whether he was working? Whether he had -some money that he could pay the rent with? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I tell you what--there is a card--the FBI picked the card -up sometime ago, but they got to fill this rental card out and he is -supposed, my husband slipped up on that, to give reference of where he -has last worked and where his business place is, and so all he put on -there was Service. - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning military service? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't know--that's all they had--"Service". - -Mr. JENNER. Just the one word "Service"? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Just the one word "Service" and he signed it and then, of -course, he slipped up on that--of course, we didn't have any idea there -was anything like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course not. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Like--since that happened, the people that own it have -asked my husband to make sure that he examines those cards and then -make them give a signature over on the side. - -All Oswald did was just to give his, fill it in like it should have -been filled in, and sign it and that's all he put. And they picked that -card up some time ago. - -Mr. JENNER. The FBI did? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, we had to sign it, my husband and I had to release it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's all right. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. They picked that up some time ago and now that's where -we slipped up, and that's all we ever knew, and I never knew where he -worked. - -Mr. JENNER. He moved in in due course? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. About how long after he had made this initial inquiry? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean before he came in? - -Mr. JENNER. He came in on what date? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the 3d of November--here's the books when you get -ready for them--he moved in November 3, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. He moved in the 3d of November 1962? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes: but let me say--he rented it November 3--that's the -day he paid his first rent and as we said, we never knew when he moved -in. - -Mr. JENNER. When he paid his rent, that was about a week after this -initial incident, was it not? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; you mean to look around? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He looked around a week before he came back and rented it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; so that he was there November the 3d and that would be -approximately a week--that would make it the 26th of October? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. When he was there the first time--it would have been, -because it was close to a week before he came back. - -Mr. JENNER. November 3 would be a Saturday and if it was about a week, -then the previous occasion was on a Saturday. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. When he rented it, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. No; when he first came to talk to you. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I just don't remember--really to tell you the truth. - -Mr. JENNER. It was about a week? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. It was--it was a week in between--a week elapsed there -before he came back. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he leave a deposit on that occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; a $5 deposit for the key, which we asked to be -deposited and he did; you mean on the apartment when he left, when he -moved out? - -Mr. JENNER. No, no. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he didn't that time. - -Mr. JENNER. When he rented the apartment, did he make an advance -payment of rent or did he make a deposit? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; when he came back the 3d of November he paid a month's -rent and which would have been a $5 deposit--$68 for the month and the -$5 deposit. - -Mr. JENNER. Or $73 altogether? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I thought you meant did he ask for his deposit -back--he never. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I will get to that in a minute. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I was getting mixed up--excuse me. - -Mr. JENNER. No; you weren't mixed up. They moved in--you don't know -when they moved in? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I honestly don't, and my husband said he didn't either, -but they could use that side. - -Mr. JENNER. The driveway? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; they could have pulled the car in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Eventually you became aware that they were in the apartment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; because after--we got a phone call. I didn't even -know she was up there then, because she hadn't started coming out until -they got this phone call. - -Do you want me to tell you about that? - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the first thing that aroused your attention of the -fact that they were there? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Of her and the child--no, I had seen Oswald, I think, -in and out, but he just went real fast, but like I said, Mrs. Oswald -didn't appear. It must have been maybe a week or 10 days before I had -seen Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. A week or 10 days after you saw him--after they moved in? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. After he rented that; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He received a telephone call? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and I answered the phone and they wanted to talk with -Mr. Oswald, and I said, "Well, I'm sorry but we don't make it a habit -of calling our tenants to the phone." He said, "Well, this is very -important--I would like to get ahold of Mr. Oswald." I said, "Would you -like to give me a number?" He said, "Just tell him George called and -they will know what you are talking about." - -Mr. JENNER. He said, "Just tell him George called"? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and my husband went over and got them--he thought, -well maybe he should go get them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this man have an accent? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he didn't talk like a southerner, I tell you that, -because there's a difference there, isn't there? Anyway, when he -came--let me tell you this--she came with him and he used the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. You advised Oswald that a call had been received? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband went and told him. - -Mr. JENNER. The man was named George? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Then, he wanted to come back and use the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. He did come back and use the phone? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came back and wanted to know if he could use the -phone. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Mrs. Oswald came with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you met her before? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I hadn't--that's what I started to tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. Had your husband? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he said that was the first he had seen of Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she look like? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I think she was real cute then, of course, she had that -pony tail and she wasn't fixed up in those days. - -Mr. JENNER. She had a pony tail? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; she had long hair pulled back and she was -very plain. I have seen pictures of her now since and she is really -different. - -Mr. JENNER. She has a different hairdo now? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she's real cute now. Anyway, he talked. - -Mr. JENNER. On the telephone? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and he didn't talk in English at all. - -Mr. JENNER. He talked in Russian over the telephone? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't know what it was but they never spoke a word of -English. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that he was calling the man who had -called in and asked your husband to tell Oswald that George had called? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He just said to me--I was the one that answered my phone -and I sent my husband over with the message and when he came back--when -he called he did not talk in English--he never spoke a word in English, -he did not, not one--Mr. Oswald didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean on this occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. At this time. - -Mr. JENNER. Over the telephone? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Over the telephone that very time that my husband went -over. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She got on the phone later and said something, but she -spoke in another, you know, a foreign language. - -Mr. JENNER. She also spoke in a foreign language? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She didn't speak in English, no. Well, she went home---- - -Mr. JENNER. Before we got home with her--were you introduced to her on -that occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He didn't introduce her at all--you mean Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No--I was going to tell you what happened. After she went -home, I said, to Mr. Oswald---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you while she was in your apartment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Just smiled. - -Mr. JENNER. She just smiled? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all--when she came in she just smiled. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say, "This is my wife?" - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't introduce her at all? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. They just wanted to use the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. She was neatly dressed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was a nice young lady and you had a good impression -of her? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She was always very nice. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you go ahead. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she went back home and I had visions that she went -to see about the youngster. - -Mr. JENNER. She went back to the apartment and he stayed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--I said to him, "What nationality are you folks?" -Because I knew he had talked to us in English. He said, "Oh, we are -Czech." - -Mr. JENNER. He said they were Czech? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; so that's all I got out of him that night--just Czech -and when she came back she smiled again real cute and nice, but she -never ever, ever made any effort to talk around him whatsoever, and -that's what I found out that night. - -Mr. JENNER. And during all the time they were tenants in the apartment -at 604 Elsbeth, did she ever use English at all in his presence while -you were present? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Not to my knowledge--no, but when she came back--he -called--he made another call and it was the same thing. - -Mr. JENNER. He spoke in a foreign tongue? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--he didn't use English. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak to that person also? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, if it's the one that called, she did, she talked for -a second. - -Mr. JENNER. You have told me that she talked at the time of the first -telephone call? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--no; not the second time, I don't think she talked the -second time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I'll ask you some technical things--was he a good -tenant in the sense that he paid his rent? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he paid his rent in advance. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he pay it promptly? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; now, you'll have to look here--my husband has got all -that marked--later you can see that, but the last month---- - -Mr. JENNER. Which was when? - -Mr. TOBIAS. It would have been--he paid--he moved in -November--December, January, February, and he stayed until March the 3d. - -Mr. JENNER. March the 3d, 1963? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right and then he lacked, I think, $8 because I -have heard him check it so many times. - -Mr. JENNER. He lacked $8? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I think that is what it is--I would have to look in here. -My husband has it marked. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and look. When you say you are looking in -here--you are looking in your records of receipts? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That's your original record? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; this is the first one. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--may I ask you a few questions about that--you -keep a record of all receipts? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; we have one--they get one and the owner gets one. - -Mr. JENNER. When a rent payment is made, you make an entry in the book -you have before you of having received a certain amount of money. It's -in duplicate or triplicate--the tenant gets a copy of the receipt, you -retain one in your book and you send one to the owners of the building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she gets the name of it and I think this is the -other one--my husband has it marked here, so that every time they would -come out they would have a lot of trouble looking and let me see, -now--yes, he paid--he lacked $8--the balance. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain to me what you mean by his lacking a balance? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he paid the $68 when he came at the regular date, -and then the 8th--that would be the 2d and the 8th he came back and -paid the other $8 and here is the beginning--if you would like to check -them. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, is what you mean is that for the month of -February, he paid first $60? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--right. - -Mr. JENNER. So, he was $8 in arrears at that time? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he made that up--he paid the $8 at a later date? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that's the receipt there. - -Mr. JENNER. In fact, on the 8th of February 1963? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. That's receipt number 7611, which I have before me, is the -receipt which you gave for that final payment--the second installment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the initial receipt, do you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. The beginning--you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; here's where--when he moved in up here. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is receipt number 0125, it is dated November 3, -1962, and it recites that it was received from Lee Oswald--the amount -of $5, and that's the deposit? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that's the deposit. - -Mr. JENNER. On number 2--that means apartment number 2 at that -entrance--604? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, I see here a second receipt dated the same date -number 0126, in the sum of $17, apartment 2, marked "void." What was -the circumstance on that receipt being marked "void?" - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Let me see--then you have another one? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband perhaps thought he was going to be paid by the -week and that's why he voided that one. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was voided on the same occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--a lot of them pay by the week, you see? - -Mr. JENNER. Ascertaining that he was going to pay by the month, a third -receipt was made out, number 0127 in the name of L. H. Oswald for $68? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So, at this moment, he has now paid $68 plus $5 deposit? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So, his payment is altogether $73? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the $5 deposit is for what? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that's the key deposit. - -Mr. JENNER. And when the tenant surrenders the key, he gets his $5 back? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, if they leave the apartment clean or half way -decent, she will refund it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in your record here that you keep, this is kept in the -usual, regular and ordinary course of business? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean--my husband keeps this--we keep these books. - -Mr. JENNER. You keep these books regularly? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are your permanent records? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right--we have them from the time we moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. And these entries are all true and correct? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are entries of receipts of rental payments for -your tenants, including Mr. Oswald? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The first of those payments consists of the ones I have -recited on the 3d of November 1962, and the last of which was the $8 -payment on February 8, 1963? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct--that's the last one. - -Mr. JENNER. That paid his rent for the month of March? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Through the 3d or to the 3d. - -Mr. JENNER. It paid it for the month of February and to and including -the 3d day of March 1963? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he vacate the premises on the 3d of March? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did. He moved out and that was on a Sunday that he -moved out and we note when he moved out. - -Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. They moved on this baby stroller. We thought that was so -funny, because they just--now, you see, you perhaps have already talked -to these people where they moved over on Neely. - -Mr. JENNER. They moved to where from your place? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--like this is Elsbeth, right down here on the -corner---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, why don't we use our little plat here, Tobias -Exhibit No. 1? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This is his apartment--right down here on Neely Street. - -Mr. JENNER. On what street? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--now, this is Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. And Neely also runs north and south? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--no; wait a minute, it runs east and west. Well, it's -right behind an apartment building on Elsbeth, just one building -behind that apartment building on Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. About how far away from where you are? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, it wouldn't be a block, it wouldn't be a good -block--probably about half a block. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation with you or your husband as to -why they were moving? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. May I tell you? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they fought so much. - -Mr. JENNER. They fought so much. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--they seemed to disagree and they didn't get along -so good and the tenants would come and tell my husband that they kept -them awake and the baby cried so much and that he could hear them -falling down as if Mrs. Oswald was hitting the floor, so my husband -went over and he said he was sorry but there was nothing going on and -that everything was okay and we had one tenant over him--nobody has -been able to contact her either--and she came over, and she said, "Mr. -Tobias, I think he has made a new opening down there." She said, "I -think he's put her right through there." And he did break a window--my -husband had to fix that. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a pane of glass in the back door? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. In there--going out into the hall, out of their back -kitchen, going into that little hall going outside. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband ascertained what? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He had to put in a new pane. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they knocked it out--I guess from fighting--we don't -know. - -Mr. JENNER. You weren't there? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband wasn't there? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. They had come after us---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the tenants had come after you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they said they could hear glass falling and -evidently they had put a baby blanket there--a baby blanket was all -over it, tacked down over the window. - -Mr. JENNER. The pane of glass in the door was broken and they had -tacked a baby blanket over the broken glass? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, all the way around it--they had quite a large blanket -and they put that around it, so my husband told them if they didn't -straighten up or, you know, they were so annoying that the other people -had to rest too, that he was sorry but they would have to find another -place. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was shortly after that that they left? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; shortly after that they moved in over on Neely. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period that they lived there from the 3d -of November 1962, to the 3d of March 1963, did you become better -acquainted with Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. Now, Mrs. Oswald would come in my house quite -frequently. - -Mr. JENNER. She would? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she seemed very lonesome, and she would be standing -out in the patio we were talking about, and right up at my walkway into -the hallway, and I asked her if she didn't want to come in and she -would say "Yes," and so she and the baby came in, but she always would -just smile. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak with you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I was going to tell you--the first time she came in -I said, "Your husband says you are Czech," and she began to shake her -head--no. - -Mr. JENNER. She shook her head in the negative? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "No," and then she told me that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She said she was Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. She said that in Russian? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she said that in English, but she said, "My husband -said it was bad and my husband told me if I said I was Russian people -would be mean to me." - -Mr. JENNER. She made it known to you with her limited command of -English--she said what you have now related? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh--yes; she said it. I understood her real well. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. And she said, "My husband thinks people will be mean to -me," and I said, "Nobody will be mean to you," and I said, "You are -always welcome to come into my house." I am always nice to the tenants, -but I don't run back and forth, but I try to be nice to them. A lot of -them do seem lonesome when they come in. She came in lots of afternoons -and would just set this little girl down on the floor and she was 9 -months old when they moved in there and she would crawl around over on -the rug and she would stay in there sometimes an hour, and she did that -lots of afternoons--just lots of afternoons she would come up. - -Mr. JENNER. And during that--with all of this period of time, you had -many opportunities to observe her? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and then she came in the evening and wanted to know -if she could use the phone. She said, "I don't know where my husband -is." She told me that. - -Mr. JENNER. About when was that? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that was just maybe a short time before they moved -out of there--that could have been a short time, because they weren't -there too much longer after that. It was in the evening and I had such -a hard time talking to her myself, it seemed to be harder for her to -grasp or to understand English than it was for me to her, so I said to -her, "Mrs. Oswald, Marina, can you read English?" She said "Yes"--and I -went and got a tablet of paper. - -Mr. JENNER. You got a tablet? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I did. I went over to the desk and I got a tablet -and on this sheet of paper, you know, I took a pencil and I put on -there, "When he gets home give him a good kick in the shin." And she -just started laughing. She read that--she could read that, and she read -that, and she thought that was real funny, and she said she would, so -she came back the second time. - -Mr. JENNER. That evening? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--she never did find him. She called--she must have -called lots of places, but, of course, spoke not in English. - -Mr. JENNER. When she made these telephone calls, she always spoke in -the foreign language? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She never spoke in English. - -Mr. JENNER. You never heard her use English over the telephone? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; only when she would try to talk to me and I would see -Mrs. Oswald every day. She would have a handwashing, you know, and -there were lines in the back. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was she? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I never was in there but once, and I'll tell you why -I was in there then--this fellow came over and he said to my husband, -"I think that he's really hurt her this time." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was another tenant? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. A tenant--yes, and we didn't hear her and I didn't see -her out at the clothesline, and my husband said, "Why don't you and I -go over and rap on the door and see if she will come to the door and -see if she's okay." He said, "We can tell her that the sweeper is over -here--she hasn't found the sweeper--she doesn't know anything about it." - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the sweeper to use in the apartments? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. A vacuum sweeper. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it this was sometime in 1962? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; because that could have been sometime in December, -but I just don't have no dates. That's the worst part of it. If we -had had any idea--but anyway, she came to the door and she had her -housecoat on and she had marks on her face. - -Mr. JENNER. Where--what portion--the left cheek or the right cheek? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. It would be like this [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. That's her right cheek? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was facing me. - -Mr. JENNER. Up near her eye? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. And her eye was dark and we told her that--we spoke -to her. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We told her what we had come for, that over in the other -building in the closets there was this vacuum cleaner and if she ever -wanted to use it, she could come over and my husband told her--he said, -"If you don't know where it is, come to my door and I will show you." - -Mr. JENNER. Did she understand what you were saying? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, she did. She understood--we made her understand, so I -don't know when they came for the sweeper, but they always would come -together and get that sweeper--you could hear them in the hall--they -were right at my door. He would always come with her when she come to -get the sweeper. He never seemed to want that woman to be out of his -sight when he was around, but that's the only marks. Now, she seemed to -be okay and I just looked in her door--I never was in her house. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you find her apartment on that look in? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband doesn't clean--he said it wasn't very clean. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Not too clean, my husband said it wasn't too clean. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there anything out of the ordinary? I assume -tenants leave your premises and the apartments are not too clean, and -this is not an extraordinary experience, is it? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's just not picked up and cleaned up and swept up -like it should be. We require them to use the vacuum and leave it like -they find it. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was nothing in the way of broken furniture or -gouged out walls? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, just that door. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the pane in the door? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that pane in the back door had to be replaced. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this man drive an automobile? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, he didn't own one while he was there? - -Mr. JENNER. Did he drive one? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him with one. - -Mr. JENNER. You never saw him drive one in your life? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never saw him drive an automobile in my life. He -was always walking when I've seen him and they would go for a walk and -maybe for groceries, and she would always be carrying that baby. He -never carried that baby. She would always carry that child. That baby -was real frightened. Now, my husband is just real fond of children and -they take up with my husband real easy, but this child was always too -frightened and it always seemed to be so frightened and never seemed to -want anyone near it. It always seemed to be such a frightened child. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Oswald occupy this apartment with her husband -during all the period, November 3, 1962, to and including March 3, 1963? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well--do you want me to tell you something that happened? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We had gone out for a ride on a Sunday afternoon and when -we came back, there was a car in the driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, this is Mr. Davis from the State of Texas -attorney general's office. - -Mr. DAVIS. How are you--nice to see you. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, go right ahead. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, when we came up---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was on Sunday? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Sunday afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. How long after they moved in? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I just don't know--but that's what I told those -gentlemen, but it was before my husband was in that accident, I know. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband was in the accident when? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. The 27th. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what month? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Of November--the same month he moved in, because we still -was driving our car, and our car was wrecked. - -Mr. JENNER. So, this occurred to the best of your recollection shortly -before the accident? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it would occur between the 3d and the 27th, because -my husband had his accident on the 27th. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's over 3 weeks--was it at the tail end of the -three weeks or the forepart of it? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't remember that--I really don't. - -Mr. JENNER. They had been in the apartment for awhile? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, and here is Elsbeth and we parked here---- - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is again referring to the Tobias Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We parked here. - -Mr. JENNER. You parked on Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, we don't have garages, so we just parked around over -here, and over here in this driveway was this big convertible. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a convertible in the driveway which is located to -the rear of the Oswald apartment--you saw a convertible--what kind was -it--are you familiar with automobiles? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't drive--my husband and I have a different -opinion on that, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband see it on that occasion? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well he did--he said he had seen it, but I thought it was -a light car, a cream color. - -Mr. JENNER. A cream-colored car? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I thought it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a sedan, two-door or four-door? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. It was a convertible is what it was with the top back--the -top was back and there was a baby bed in that convertible and then -there was some clothing in there, and when we stopped up there, I said -to my husband, "I think someone is moving out." Now, he went over -home--I thought he did and I said, "I think I'll go over and check." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do so? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I walked in the hallway and as I walked in the hallway a -fellow came out---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did he look like? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have a different opinion on that. - -Mr. JENNER. I just want your view. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he was a pretty-good-sized fellow--he was larger -than Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. A big man? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He was larger than Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you say he weighed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I'm poor judging that, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm going to stand up. I'm 5 foot 11 inches and I -weigh about 153 pounds. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been a little heavier than you. - -Mr. JENNER. A little taller? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. He could have been a little taller and a little heavier. - -Mr. JENNER. As tall as 6 foot 6? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I doubt if he was--you are how much--5 what? - -Mr. JENNER. I am 5 feet 11 inches--one inch shorter than 6 feet. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been right around there. - -Mr. JENNER. But heavier than I am? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I believe he was heavier than you. - -Mr. JENNER. What color hair did he have? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he had dark hair--kind of brown, I guess, and when -I walked in the hallway, he walked out. I said, "What's coming off?" -He said, "Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--or moving out" or -something like that--that's the way he said it. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was this man? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Gee, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your judgment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, perhaps 50--50 I would say or even in his late -fifties. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, 50 and late fifties is a big difference. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, maybe he was a little over 50 and maybe he was right -around 50--he wasn't an old man. - -Mr. JENNER. He was 50 more or less? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--it would have been--that's what I thought. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. How was he dressed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. With a brown--he had on a brown suit. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he neatly dressed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't have slacks on? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I think that was a suit--I think that was a suit. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't wear shorts? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. How did he act? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, what he said--he walked out in the hallway, and I -said, "What's coming off?" because I knew somebody was moving so, I -didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, now, but Oswald walked out the door and -this fellow walked out in the hall and he was the one that met me and -he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--moving out for -awhile." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether Mr. Oswald was going to -remain? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all that was said and I went on home. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see her? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, I didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, and I don't know when -they moved out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they all move out or just Marina? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all he said--he just said, "Mrs. Oswald is going -away for awhile or moving out for awhile." - -Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention that she had moved? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I didn't see her around--that's true, I didn't see her -around. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see him around, that is, Mr. Oswald? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; because I think he used that back entrance because--I -really do think he must have used that back entrance because you didn't -see him much, not even when Mrs. Oswald was there, only when you see -them go out together. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the month of November? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. It would have to have been. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was something up to November 27--did he pay his rent -for the month of December? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; it's all here. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; let's look at it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Which one do we have now--which one is this? - -Mr. JENNER. That's November. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you want all the way down--don't you? - -Mr. JENNER. Give me the next one--that would be December--maybe I can -help you with this. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This is the deposit and the rent there. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the initial payment--now, I will look for December. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All right, here it is--starting here. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a receipt No. 0154 in your book of original -receipts here, dated December 6, 1962, reciting, "Received from L. H. -Oswald--$68 for rental of apartment No. 2, from December 3, 1962, to -January 3, 1963. Paid in cash. Signed by Mrs. M. F. Tobias, Sr." - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's when I had to take over. - -Mr. JENNER. That's your signature? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That is right--after my husband was sick. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he pay that to you in cash? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did--he never gave checks. - -Mr. JENNER. And he handed it to your personally, so you knew on that -occasion, which was the 6th of December 1962, that he was there? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was paying his rent for the month of December? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald still absent? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, I don't know how long she was gone. Now, we really -don't--my husband said he didn't--he didn't see her around. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when you first saw her? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. After she came back? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it could have been another week or 10 days. - -Mr. JENNER. So that would be in the month of December 1962--she was -absent a week or 10 days? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She would have had to been because I didn't see her -around, and they always kept their blinds down, you know, the shades -was always pulled. - -Mr. JENNER. They were? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--day and night, you never seen any shades up over -there, their shades was always down. - -Mr. JENNER. Wasn't that strange? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, a lot of my tenants do--we don't think nothing about -it. We've got so many of them that keeps them down. I always think -there must be something wrong when they keep them down, but we don't -bother our tenants. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he paid his rent for the month of January 1963, did he -not, and he paid it to you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. If it's on there. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a receipt here No. 0178, dated January 4, -1963, "issued to L. H. Oswald for $68 for the rent of Apartment No. 2 -from January 3, 1963, to and including February 3, 1963," and it is -signed M. F. Tobias, Sr. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, he signed that one. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that his signature or yours? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; that's his--that's his. - -Mr. JENNER. That rent was paid in cash, was it? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he gave cash. - -Mr. JENNER. To him; to your husband? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he always gave cash. - -Mr. JENNER. And as of that time she was back in the apartment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; she was--you see this was later after she had -come back and when she got friendly and would come over, and she would -come over nearly every afternoon later, but she didn't come around--I -didn't see her so much when they first moved in. You see, I told you, -when they first moved in, I said to my husband, "I thought this was -the man with the wife and child?" He said, "Yes, he told me that", but -perhaps she wasn't around at the beginning for awhile. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have any guests, any callers? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, one lady came to my door one evening. - -Mr. JENNER. About when? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. In the evening--you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. It was beginning to get dark. - -Mr. JENNER. When was it--was it the evening of the weekday or weekend? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; it must have been a weekday because she said she had -had a call. She came to my door and knocked. - -Mr. JENNER. The lady did? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what month was it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't even know that. She said she had been trying to -contact Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe her please--age, weight--short or tall. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I let her come in, I was going to tell you, and she -was, oh, a dark lady. She said she was Russian. I talked to her awhile. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she dark-skinned or light-skinned? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she wasn't a blonde, she was a brunette--she was a -real nice looking woman. - -Mr. JENNER. She was white-skinned, however? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About how old? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 35 and maybe a little older. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall was she? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, about 5 foot 3 or 5 foot 4 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you judge she weighed? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she had a coat on--I don't know--I just don't really -know. She wasn't real large but she wasn't real small and she said Mrs. -Oswald had called her earlier in the day and said that the baby was -sick and she didn't have any money to take the baby to the doctor, and -she couldn't get them to the door, she sat in there and talked to us a -while and my husband says he just doesn't remember this--this was after -he had his accident, because his memory was pretty bad after he had -had this accident and I asked her if she would like to have me go over -with her and see if we could get in, and she said, "I would, because I -rang the doorbell and I rang the doorbell, and I can't get them to the -door." And, I said, "Okay, I'll go over with you." I didn't rap on the -door, I just kept ringing the doorbell. Well, now, he didn't come out -the front door. - -Mr. JENNER. Which door were you rapping on? The rear or the front door? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I was ringing in the hallway, the front--I didn't rap on -the door--I just rang the doorbell. We have doorbells. Now, he didn't -come out in the hall entrance, he came around. - -Mr. JENNER. Who did? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. He came around from the back? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came out of the back door and around and jumped -in the hall, and I said, "Mr. Oswald, this lady is trying to find you -people. You didn't answer." He said, "Oh, I'll take care of it." And he -ushered her right inside and that's the last I seen. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize him? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I guess she did, because he just took her--they had -nothing to say to each other in the hall. He just said, "Oh, I'll take -care of it." - -Mr. JENNER. No words passed between them? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he just came from around. - -Mr. JENNER. When she came to your place, did she identify herself -as--who she was and where she worked--did she work in the Dallas area? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She worked downtown in an office. - -Mr. JENNER. She said she worked downtown in an office? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and she said she was going to see if she could help. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see that lady again? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. I never seen her again and then, as I say, I seen a -blonde-headed girl come there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this later? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This was after she was there and she wanted to know which -apartment, and I showed her, and that's all I ever seen of her. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that lady, please; she was a blonde? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she was pretty slim. - -Mr. JENNER. She was slender, was she? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was kind of thin. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall was she? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 5 foot 1 or 5 foot 2--maybe 3 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Not as tall as the first lady you described? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they could have been somewhere near the same height, -but she was a different type. - -Mr. JENNER. She was a different type person? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a blonde. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she identify herself? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she just asked which apartment Mr. Oswald lived in and -I showed her and that's all I knew about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak English? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she did--she talked to me in English. - -Mr. JENNER. About when was that, with respect to the other incident you -have described? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean between the two of them? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't know whether it was a week later or 2 weeks -later, I just don't know. Just like I said, that if we had had any idea -about all this, we might have put down dates. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. But I don't--I really don't know. When they don't find the -party, they usually come to the manager, you see, and we try to help -them if we can. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, going back to these conversations you had with Mrs. -Oswald about her being Russian, was there an occasion when she talked -to you about the fact that her husband didn't want people to know that -she spoke Russian? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She didn't say "speak". She said, "He doesn't want me to -tell that I am Russian." - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "Because people would be mean to me,"--she said -they wouldn't be nice to her and they would be mean to her, and that -was all said about that. - -Mr. JENNER. You reassured her? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I told her I didn't think that was true. I said, -"I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone would be mean to you -because I don't know why anyone should be." I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about her husband saying that he -didn't want it known that they spoke Russian or that she was Russian, -because men would come around? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; that was the only occasion--the only time that -ever anything was spoken. She was pretty quiet herself. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they make any long distance calls? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; they didn't on our phone. They asked us--these were -all local, but they were very quiet people. They seemed to stay to -themselves, that is, they didn't mix with no tenants and the tenants -said they never even cared to speak with them. They never seemed to -want to speak. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the Oswalds? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Didn't care to mix. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't care to mix with other people--they made no -effort to become friendly? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I guess my house was the only one in the building she -was ever in. - -Mr. JENNER. And as far as he was concerned, he had little contact with -you, did he, other than pay the rent? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; my husband went over and got after them about the -noise. I didn't go with him. You could speak to him and he would look -at you so funny--he just didn't have anything to say. I heard a lady -describe him in an interview on TV and that was him exactly. I told my -husband, she couldn't do a better job--because he was tight, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. He was tightlipped most of the time? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Just as if his chin--just like that lady--I said to my -husband, "isn't that something how she described him?" - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of the Oswalds after they left your -building? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they used to come back by, you see. I think I -told you that my husband had had this accident. We have chairs--lawn -chairs and we were sitting in the yard and she would come back by with -the baby in her stroller and she would come up to the walk and smile. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she never tried to have a conversation. I walked out -to the car and I said, "You moved away and left us." - -Mr. JENNER. You walked out to the car? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. She was standing by a car--you see, those cars were parked -there and I knew where she went, my husband and I would take walks and -I said, "Where did you go?" And she made "214" on the car and then I -knew it was Neely--I said, "Neely." - -Mr. JENNER. Did she nod her head? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a real sweet little girl as far as I was -concerned and she was a lonely person. I think she was very lonely. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you would like to add that I have not -brought out, either because I don't know about it or for any reason, -that you think might be helpful to the Commission? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they said to me that they thought this fellow -that moved her out might have been this George, but they brought -pictures--do you have pictures of the other men? - -Mr. JENNER. Moved her out? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. You know--that day when they moved her out. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I have pictures of a man by the name of George? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; they brought some out but now, that did not look like -the man to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall them showing you a picture and telling you -what the man's name was? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; is it Paden? - -Mr. JENNER. The FBI agent? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I think he came to see us twice. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, there are so many of them. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. And he was about one of the second groups that came and -then later he came back with these pictures and he asked me if I -thought that was the man I had seen in the hallway. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the man who came to help her out of the -apartment on that Sunday? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he asked me if I thought that was him and I said, -"Well, it does not look like him to me." But, there has been a -different opinion on that--my husband and I have had a different -opinion on that all along about what we thought he looked like, but -that did not look like the man to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I want your view. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it didn't to me--it didn't look like the same man to -me, but I couldn't swear who it was because I've only seen the picture, -and I have seen pictures of Mr. Ruby, but the day they apprehended -Oswald, of course, we were looking on the TV. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it look like pictures of Mr. Ruby you have seen? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the one that he had didn't, but what I was going to -tell you--after all that happened, and I seen pictures of him, on the -TV---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who--of Ruby? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I told my husband, I said, "Back in my mind that -resembles the man more than anybody I have ever seen in my life," -but now I wouldn't swear it because there was no resemblance of the -pictures they brought out there to me, and the day that they arrested -Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, we had TV on and I said to my husband, "Look -who they've got." - -He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "That's the guy that shot the -President." He said, "Who is it?" I said, "That's Lee Oswald." He -said, "How do you know?" And I said, "Don't you see him on there?" I -recognized him right off and my husband's memory was kind of shook and -he's just not the same person after he had this concussion. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry to hear that. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. This big oil truck hit my husband, and you know, just -almost got the car ahead and his nerves are just not the same--they -haven't been the same. He says he's just not as stable--he's--he just -don't seem to do what he should--it's coming gradually. The doctors say -it will come, but he's kind of shook from the accident. I wasn't with -him. - -Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald around your home during those months, -how was he dressed generally? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he always just had slacks and a T-shirt or a jacket -on, you know, a sport jacket--I don't mean a sport coat like a jacket. - -Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes and a T-shirt. He most always had on a T-shirt--you -didn't see him very many times without a shirt. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it he got into no discussions with you or your -husband about politics? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; Lord, no. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, he got in discussions with you about -nothing? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; we had no contact with him. He just paid the rent -and out he would go. He didn't make an effort to make a conversation -even when he came to use the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. This is a furnished apartment? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Three rooms--do your three rooms consist of a living room, -bedroom, and kitchen? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; with the kitchen and dining room combined. - -Mr. JENNER. A kitchenette? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. And it is all in one and then there is a bed in the wall -in the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. That opens into the living room. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; the living room is real large, but the bedrooms are -small. Now, the kitchen that he had is smaller than the one I have, -some of them are smaller, but that's the eating area, the dining area -in the kitchen. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Tobias, I can't think of anything else. I -appreciate your coming up very much. - -These depositions are written up and you have the right, if you wish, -to exercise it, to read the deposition and to sign it. We don't insist -on that at all and you may waive the signing of the deposition if you -wish, and it's your option, to do either way you would prefer--if you -would prefer to read the deposition and sign it and you say so, the -U.S. attorney will get in touch with you in due course and you may come -in and read it and sign it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, it doesn't matter to me because we would like -to help you if we can and if we have been helpful and I tried to tell -you exactly just what I know, which isn't very much help. I don't -think we have been too much help because he moved out before all this -happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you never can tell how much help you have been. You -have been of help to me and I appreciate it very much. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have been willing--we have had a -lot of people there. - -Mr. JENNER. If you wished to waive the signing of the deposition, we -can just send it right into Washington without troubling you to sign it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it is all right with me, because I have told you the -truth. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. All that is there is the truth and I have told you all I -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, thank you very much, and I will have your husband in -now, if I may? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. Now, I couldn't swear that that was who the guy was. -Now, do you want me to leave the books with you? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; leave the books and we will give them to your husband. -Tobias Exhibit No. 1 is offered in evidence. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF M. F. TOBIAS, SR. - -The testimony of M. F. Tobias, Sr., was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April -2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. I understand you suffered an injury in an automobile -accident? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I ain't as young as I used to be since that. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. M. F. Tobias, Sr.? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he lives at 602 604 Elsbeth Street, Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Six two and six four. - -Mr. JENNER. And he lives with Mrs. Tobias and you manage an apartment -building at that address? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; the wife and I together. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you stand and be sworn, sir? - -Mr. Tobias, in your testimony you are about to give, do you swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank, you, sir. - -Mr. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission. I understand from Mrs. Tobias that -you and she received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint -Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the President's Commission? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, creating -the Commission and appointing it and fixing its powers and duties and -obligations, and also a copy of our rules and regulations for the -taking of testimony. From those papers, I assume you are aware of the -fact that at least our general direction is to investigate all the -facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. In the course of doing that, there are many people who, in -their pursuit of their livelihoods, came in contact with a man by the -name of Lee Oswald, and we understand you folks did and I would like to -ask you a few questions about it. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Go ahead; I'm willing to answer all I can. - -Mr. JENNER. You are aged what? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Sixty-seven. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a native-born American? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Born in Battle Creek, Mich.? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And your family--you raised two or three boys, as I -understand it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I've got two boys and two girls. - -Mr. JENNER. You have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and -married now, I assume? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are retired at the moment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you and Mrs. Tobias manage this building on Elsbeth -Street here in Dallas? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And in the course of your managing that building, you came -in contact with a person by the name of Lee Oswald; is that so? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I can tell you one thing, he was a funny duck. He -came up there--maybe 3 weeks before he rented it. - -Mr. JENNER. He rented it on November 3, 1962? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; but he came there maybe 3 weeks before that. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be in October. He was alone, was he? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and looked at the apartment. I told him what I wanted -for it and I told him what the score was--we didn't allow no drinking -or no parties, which I don't, and he says, "My wife isn't here"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Tobias, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Okay; now, that's what we want to get on the record. Repeat -that. - -Mr. TOBIAS. I tell them like this--what they drink in their apartment -is their business, but when they get noisy that's mine. My business. -Then, he came back---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he alone? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he wanted to look at the apartment again, which -happened to still be vacant, and then he wanted to go around the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Around the apartment itself? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you is Tobias Exhibit No. 1, and that is Mrs. -Tobias' conception of a plat of your building. Now, is there anything -wrong with that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it ain't the way I would have drawed it, because this -building is kind of in a---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mrs. Tobias has drawn that green and I hand you -now a red pen and ask you to draw one. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Do you want me to drawn another one? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; let's mark it "Tobias Exhibit No. 2," first. - -(The witness marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel -Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. All right; draw me a plat of the building on the ground -floor, that is the bottom surface. - -(Witness Tobias drew the plat requested by Counsel Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Tobias has drawn a =U=-shaped outline. - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is all trees and shrubs in here. - -Mr. JENNER. In the =U= portion, that is a court or a patio, is it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's trees and shrubs? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is Elsbeth Street? You are now writing "Elsbeth -Street" and this court faces on Elsbeth Street, does it? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is a private driveway through here. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the private driveway swing around to the rear? - -Mr. TOBIAS. And this is a line back here, a property line. Now, this is -Davis Street here. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, write Davis Street on there lengthwise, will you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Like that. [Complied with request of Counsel Jenner.] - -Mr. JENNER. Now, does this private driveway enter on Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. TOBIAS. The private driveway comes off from Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. Put an arrow there, will you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's it. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's the private driveway? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Now, his apartment was this one here. - -Mr. JENNER. Draw a line across there, and put in the apartment number. - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. 2. - -Mr. JENNER. And at what address? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is 604. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; write that in there, and now we've got that -located. - -Mr. TOBIAS. [Witness complied with request of Counsel Jenner.] He had -an outside entrance--this is another apartment here, No. 1. - -Mr. JENNER. Also on the ground floor? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Also on the ground floor. They both used the same entrance -here. - -Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" there. - -Mr. TOBIAS. All the rest of the apartments--of course, there is an -apartment here, and the same here [indicating]. It's two-story and the -same thing upstairs. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the apartment number that is right in back of that -patio? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 6. - -Mr. JENNER. And the one to the right? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 5. - -Mr. JENNER. And the one in front of that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is my apartment here. - -Mr. JENNER. Number what? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. 7. - -Mr. JENNER. And what address is that on Elsbeth? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is 602. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Write that in and now we're got it. Now, what I -want you to tell me about--is--tell me about that patio, how big is it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, let's see, that must be 25 to 30 feet deep. - -Mr. JENNER. How far across? - -Mr. TOBIAS. About the same thing across. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it have shrubbery and trees? - -Mr. TOBIAS. You see, you have a front door--this is our front entrance -here. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you put a little square there? - -Mr. TOBIAS. For these two apartments and for these three apartments -here---- - -Mr. JENNER. I asked Mrs. Tobias, and I'm going to ask you this, because -you are more accustomed to this sort of thing. Could a man stand in -that patio and dry sight a firearm or a weapon and not be noticed? - -Mr. TOBIAS. In the summertime--yes; because along here is shrubbery and -along here is shrubbery. [Indicating.] - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you put a figure in there, because we need it -for the record and let's call that your first figure here--let's put an -"A" in there, and the other one "B". Now, those are shrubs or shrubbery? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; and there is a brick wall across here. - -Mr. JENNER. How high is that brick wall? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's about 18 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Just a low wall? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and there are shrubs on the outside of that wall and -on the inside of the patio area here and in here in the center I have a -round circle dug out and have got some kind of grass that grows right -on there but that wouldn't amount to nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. That shrubbery that is facing on Elsbeth Street, how tall -is that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. This shrubbery, now, faces these buildings here and it -faces this apartment here. - -Mr. JENNER. The "A" shrubbery faces the 604 address bank of apartments, -and the "B" shrubbery faces your apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; No. 7. Now, this shrubbery is about 3 to 4 feet high. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the "A" shrubbery? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. This shrubbery over here is not so high because some -of it died on me and I had to dig it up, but here now I have a big tree. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "here," you are pointing to the center? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Up here I have two pieces of shrubbery on each side of that. - -Mr. JENNER. The tree is what kind of a tree? - -Mr. TOBIAS. It's a fir tree. - -Mr. JENNER. It's solid right down to the ground? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That fir is up there maybe 25 feet high. - -Mr. JENNER. So, somebody could stand behind the tree, and dry sight a -rifle and not be seen from Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, pursuing this same subject--first, Elsbeth Street runs -in what direction? - -Mr. TOBIAS. North and south. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is the north end--the 604 side or your side? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Let me see, now. I get confused in directions. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, let's put an "N" there for north and put an "S" up -there for south and then over this way is to the east. - -Mr. TOBIAS. And this is west. - -Mr. JENNER. And if that is west, then this must be south and this must -be north. - -Mr. TOBIAS. This is just exactly the way the apartment sets; this is -west here. - -Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there and put an "E" up at the top for east. - -Mr. TOBIAS. I get confused with this direction myself here. - -Mr. JENNER. Calling your attention to the rear entrance from the -parkway, the driveway, what is there to the north of that, another -building? - -Mr. TOBIAS. There is a house here. - -Mr. JENNER. A single-family dwelling? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; an old lady 80 years old lives there. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that all open except for that house? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. This is a regular driveway. We have our -driveway here and she has her driveway too, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; put another driveway in there. I'm going to -mark that second driveway, if I might. [Counsel Jenner marked the -instruments as stated.] There is a single-family dwelling, then? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She keeps--this old lady there keeps roomers. - -Mr. JENNER. She does? - -Mr. TOBIAS. What I mean, she just has just a room. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that house about in here? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; that would be on the other side of the driveway here. - -Mr. JENNER. The other side of where I have marked this second driveway? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; facing Elspeth. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the open space, say, between your building line and -the single family dwelling? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, that must be--that can't be more than 25 feet because -there are 2 driveways there. - -Mr. JENNER. Could a man dry sighting a weapon, holding a rifle outside -that rear entrance, do so without being detected and without people -noticing it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, you've got the streets on Elspeth and people in that -house might see it, because her roomers are right there by that door. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, people who are passing by or looking out of your -window or looking out from this rooming house could see that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever say anything to you about Oswald having a -weapon? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. A firearm? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Using it--sighting it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you noticed that there had -been brought near the premises or on it or in his possession a package? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never did see it because he always used his back door -and I was over on the other side. - -Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me--a package that to you you would -recognize as a rifle? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That possibly was a rifle? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, a bunch of curtain rods or window shades or something -of that nature? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. No; I've never seen nothing like that. I don't even -remember the parcel post man ever leaving anything there--a package or -anything. I never was in his apartment but twice, I don't think, while -he lived there. I went in there with the exterminators twice, once a -month, and we exterminated the place for cockroaches, that's one thing -we don't like around here, and, of course, I had to get her permission -to go in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and she was an awful nice girl. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she understand you when you spoke to her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was--would come out in her front yard--I sat in -her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and, -of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she -could, because he didn't want her to anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she give any reason? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she said people will be mean to her. She got -acquainted with them. She got acquainted with them and she used to come -over to the house and sit with the wife a lot and the wife would talk -to her. - -Mr. JENNER. And you moved in and around a lot, did you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Do you mean me--I was out around a lot? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I mean you--you were around and you saw her with the -child and you saw her in the apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was around all the time--there is no night that goes -by before I got to bed that I don't make a trip around the house. - -Mr. JENNER. You had an accident; when was that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. In October, I think it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you confined in your apartment for quite a while? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was there a week before I went to the hospital and I -was in the hospital a week or better, and then I come home and I didn't -do much but lay around--I had an awful concussion. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what I understand--are you feeling better now? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, I'm getting along all right now, only lost the hearing -out of this ear. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did see Marina in and around your apartment and you -saw her out in the walk, walking the baby and she was friendly, was she? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She was always friendly. - -Mr. JENNER. A very nice girl? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Clean and neat? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And attended to her child? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she took care of her baby, that's for sure, and it -was always clean. - -Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to be pleasant and talk to you people to -the limited extent she was able to do, is that a fair statement? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't hear you. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean, she would say a few words to you--she had a limited -command of English? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. But you tried to communicate with her and she with you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At least to a limited extent? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I talked to her and, of course, she wouldn't say -nothing back and Oswald, I tried to talk to him several times and all I -could get of him was a grunt. He was a kind of a guy that wouldn't talk -to you at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that right? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he was a peculiar duck. - -Mr. JENNER. How did your other tenants feel toward Oswald? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they didn't like it. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't like what? - -Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't like the way he beat her all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. They complained to you that he manhandled her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and -he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that -girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's -domestic troubles and I don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting," -which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll have to take it up, but -not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that, when did that occur? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. When did that occur? - -Mr. TOBIAS. While he was living there--along toward the last. I think -it was the last month he was there. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I was going by there--and I cleaned the halls, and I -was sweeping out the hall and I seen the window was broken and I spoke -to him about it and he said, "I'll get it in" and he never did get it -in. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you how it happened? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any covering up over it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. He got to fighting so much around there that I told the man -that owned it, Mr. Jurek, so him and his wife went over there one night -and told him that he was making too much noise with their fighting and -they had to quit or move, so they moved. - -Mr. JENNER. You found this fellow pretty close-mouthed and laconic? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he was--he didn't say nothing to nobody. - -Mr. JENNER. On the other hand, you found her to be pleasant, neat and a -delightful young lady? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. A good mother? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She came over too, when he came over to use the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that--do you remember a particular incidence? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, well, one time--yes--somebody by the name of George -called. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on that occasion? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; mother answered it and I don't hardly ever answer the -phone because I can't hear good and this fellow wanted Oswald and she -asked him, I understand, who it was and she said it was George and I -went over and told Oswald that he was wanted on the phone and they came -over there and they both talked and they both talked in their language. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the telephone conversation, did you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; you couldn't--because they talked in their language. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard him, is all I asked you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. All I could hear--I could hear him talking but I didn't -know what they were talking about. - -Mr. JENNER. You were present in the room, is all I mean. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; we were there. - -Mr. JENNER. And you heard him speak over the telephone? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he spoke in some foreign tongue? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you couldn't understand? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the whole conversation was in this foreign tongue? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; they both talked. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear the other fellow on the other end? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. You assumed that he was likewise talking in the same -language? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I imagine so--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you curious about that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--I didn't like it, because when anybody says anything, -I like to know what they are talking about. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; because it's a private phone and I pay my own phone -bill, and I don't figure it's up to the people in the apartments to be -using my phone all the time, and we let him understand that. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what language that was he was speaking in? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, he came over--when he first came in he told us he was -Czech. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this--this 3 weeks other time? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; that was after he moved in, and my landlady is -Czechoslovakian. - -Mr. JENNER. Your landlady is Czechoslovakian? - -Mr. TOBIAS. My landlady is Czechoslovakian herself, and so one day when -Marion was over at the house, Mrs. Oswald was in there--she had come in -there and sat down. - -Mr. JENNER. This was an occasion when Marina, or do you mean the -landlady, Marion came in? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I say Mrs. Jurek was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Jurek was in your apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she came to collect the rent and Mrs. Oswald was in -there. - -Mr. JENNER. She was visiting? - -Mr. TOBIAS. And my wife says. "Mrs. Jurek, Mrs. Oswald is -Czechoslovakian." Mrs. Jurek says, "All right, speak something. I'm -Czech too." She says, "No, we're not Czech, we're Russian, but my -husband doesn't want us to say that because people will be mean to us." - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know she said that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear Marina say, "No; I'm not Czech, I'm Russian." - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. "And my husband doesn't want people to know that because -people will be mean to me?" - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She said that much in English so that you would understand -it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That's quite a bit of English. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I know. That's what I'm trying to tell you--she knew -more English than she let on she did. - -Mr. JENNER. That's of interest to us--she was able to communicate that -whole idea to you in English? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she speak some Russian then to this lady? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No--after she told Mrs. Jurek she was Russian, that was it, -because Mrs. Jurek didn't--she was Czech and she didn't know no Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that Marina visited in your apartment rather -frequently? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she come over there very seldom--she came over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Very seldom? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she come over there a couple of times a week. - -Mr. JENNER. She did come over that often, though? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she would come over there and sit and the wife would -talk to her, because my wife is a great hand to sew, and she would -watch the wife and the little baby would play, but what burned me -up--I'm a great lover of children, and when I tried to get next to that -little baby sitting in a wheelchair---- - -Mr. JENNER. In a stroller? - -Mr. TOBIAS. In a stroller and as I would walk up to it and try to talk -to it, she just acted as if she was scared to death. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that so--was that unusual? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it is to me. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean, in your experience? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; because I haven't found a baby yet that I couldn't -take over. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you finally win the baby over? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No--they didn't stay there that long. That's why he -moved--he moved in that trailer, in that stroller. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That was after--when he left my place. When he moved from -my place up around the corner around a block and a half and he moved -everything in that stroller. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that after the owners of the building had come and told -him that he was making too much noise or too much trouble and that they -suggested he might find another apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see, this was on a Sunday, wasn't it, March 3? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now--I think that he stayed there, a couple of days, -if I'm not mistaken over his rent period. - -Mr. JENNER. He had paid his rent, though? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he had paid his rent. You see, the last month that he -paid, the books will show you that he come in there with $60 and that's -all he had, he said, and then he would come back later with the $8, -which he did do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias has furnished your rent receipts and we have -recited that into the record, so we have a record of that. He didn't -move out on the 3d, he lacked a couple of days, is that right? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there might have been a day or two in there in his -getting out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for those extra days? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him to pay? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No--I didn't. We asked him to pay for the window, but he -didn't pay for it either. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever come back and ask you for his $5 deposit, the -key deposit? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No, he never did--not to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender the key? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't understand it. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it was in pretty good shape. - -Mr. JENNER. It was? - -Mr. TOBIAS. It was pretty clean--there was one thing I noticed and that -was when I went in there with the exterminator--we have beds in there, -the beds that we have in there has these kind of bookshelves at the top -of them, and he had worlds and worlds of books. - -Mr. JENNER. He did? - -Mr. TOBIAS. They were all Russian--you would see this Russian and this -Russian and this Russian and that, but I didn't touch one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. But they were either Russian language books? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, that I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they were books about Russia? - -Mr. TOBIAS. They were on Russia, because the headline on the side of it -here was Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. On the heel of the book? - -Mr. TOBIAS. And it would just be Russian I or Russian II or something -like that and that was to me kinda--looked kinda odd to me; of course, -I didn't think nothing of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they subscribers to newspapers? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I think he took the Morning News, if I'm not mistaken. - -Mr. JENNER. He paid the rent promptly? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; by the month. - -Mr. JENNER. By the month and in cash? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right, and the only time he got behind was that one -month--that one time there with the $8 and then he made that up. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him where he was working? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How he was making his money? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; you didn't discuss nothing with that boy. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't volunteer it and even if you tried, you couldn't -have gotten anything--is that about it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. His card--when he made out his card--when he made out his -card, that's where I slipped up a little, I guess. He made out his card -that he was in the service. Of course, I should have questioned him -more, which I didn't do, but in the business in the apartment house you -get so darned many jokers in there. - -Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't doubt it--was there an occasion when Marina -moved out for a short time? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that, please. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, this is when I was goofy-headed. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean that followed your accident? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I hadn't been home from the hospital very long, but we came -back from somewhere--I don't know where, and we seen a car out there -and they were loading it up and the wife jumped out of the car and she -said, "Well, I guess the Oswalds are moving. We'll find out." - -She goes around and goes in the front door and back down to the -door and she meets a man and she says. "What are they doing--moving -out?" And he tells her that he's moving Mrs. Oswald away for a short -time. So, I don't know whether it was the same guy or another guy, -but anyway, there was a fellow that came around to the front with an -armload of stuff--but the man I seen was a tall man, about 6-foot tall -and dark complected and a slight mustache. That was the man that I saw. - -Mr. JENNER. How big a man was he? - -Mr. TOBIAS. He was a tall man--6-foot tall. - -Mr. JENNER. At least 6-foot--he might have been taller? - -Mr. TOBIAS. He could have been taller. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Bob? - -Mr. DAVIS. Six foot four inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis will stand up and he is 6 foot 4 inches. - -Mr. TOBIAS. He was about like him--maybe a little shorter, but just -about that height. - -Mr. JENNER. About that build? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--just about the same build. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he weigh--a couple of hundred pounds or a hundred -and ninety? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, probably a hundred ninety to two hundred pounds. - -Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 195. - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's what I weigh. - -Mr. JENNER. What did this man say? - -Mr. TOBIAS. He said he was moving Mrs. Oswald for a few days--he told -the wife that. He never said nothing to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the automobile they were in? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was it? - -Mr. TOBIAS. It was a convertible--a red one. - -Mr. JENNER. Red? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what make it was? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No, I don't--I had seen it there before. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this occur? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I guess maybe she moved out in March. - -Mr. JENNER. Was--with respect to your illness, was it before your -illness or after--before your accident or after? - -Mr. TOBIAS. That was after my accident. You see, I was goofy-headed -right around in that period of time. - -Mr. JENNER. From your concussion? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; in fact, I have been goofy-headed all of my life, but -I was worse then. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you saw this red convertible around the apartment -on prior occasions? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I had seen the car there once before. - -Mr. JENNER. At least once? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It might have been more? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, no, I won't say any more than that, but I know I have -seen it there once before that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen this man there before? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him before. You see, they can drive right -down that driveway and park in front of this door here, and I couldn't -see them. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they could come in from the rear, couldn't they, they -could come in off of Davis Street? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they could come up around off of Davis and come up -through here too. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have anybody visit there, in addition to this man? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there was a lady came there to see about the baby one -day and she said she had got a call that the baby was sick and they -didn't have no money to buy it any medicine and my wife took her over -there and she said she had been trying to get in, but there wouldn't -nobody answer the door and my wife went over there and she hammered on -the door and Oswald, instead of him coming to the front door, he goes -out this back door and comes all the way around to the front. - -Mr. JENNER. That's kind of strange. - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's right--that's the kind of guy he was, and then there -was a blonde headed woman there one time. - -Mr. JENNER. A blonde? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She was looking for Oswald--for the Oswalds, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She got in and she went in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I imagine she weighed around 120 pounds and was -around 5 foot 3 inches or 4 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. A slender woman? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a slender, blonde headed--a pretty woman. This -other woman that came there wanted to see about the baby, and she was -kind of a dark-haired woman and I imagine she would weigh around 100 -pounds or 110, but she was rather short, she was about 5 feet tall. - -Mr. JENNER. She was 100 pounds and 5 feet what? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She was around 5 foot--she wasn't too large. - -Mr. JENNER. She was kind of slender too, then, a little heavier than -the other one? - -Mr TOBIAS. Yes, she was a little heavier. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of these ladies identify themselves in any way? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say they lived in Dallas or worked in -Dallas? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, let me see--there's one of them, I think this -dark-headed woman, said she worked here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the one you described first? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; the dark-headed woman--the blonde--I don't know about -her, the wife talked to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds after they left, after they moved -out of the apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I don't know that I ever seen him, but I seen her as -she went by the house a couple of times wheeling the baby and I didn't -even know where they moved to until one night my car was in a wreck and -I didn't have nothing and the wife and I walked a lot and I went around -the corner and I seen her upstairs in an apartment window and that was -where they moved to. I don't know how long they stayed there. She went -by the house not more than 3 or 4 weeks ago here and she had a bunch of -men in the car one night and waved--she knew me. - -Mr. JENNER. She waved to you 2 or 3 weeks ago? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get a good look at her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--she was sitting in the back seat. She had the -little girl with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a convertible? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; that was a big car--I don't know what kind of car -it was. - -Mr. JENNER. You have seen some pictures of Jack Ruby posted in the -newspaper and on television? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This man that came to move Marina out of there for a -temporary visit, did he look like Jack Ruby? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How long was she away? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she wouldn't have been away, well, I imagine she was -gone about 2 weeks. I never did know when she came back. - -Mr. JENNER. She was gone temporarily, a week to 2 weeks, or something -of that kind? - -Mr. TOBIAS. She was gone longer than that--she was gone a couple of -weeks at least. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you about that sojourn of hers? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask her? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your wife? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't ask her nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your wife did? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No--I don't know whether she did or not. - -Mr. JENNER. At least your wife never reported it to you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. If my wife said anything, or if she had said anything to my -wife, she would have told me. My wife and I been together 43 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your observations, I know you have already done it -to some extent, but give me your observations as to the personality of -this man. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Ruby? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. TOBIAS. You mean Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--you saw him off and on for about 4 months. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, he was the kind of a guy that went around with -his lips tight and if you did say anything to him he would answer you -just as darn quick as he could and just be sharp as he could and so he -didn't have to do that to me only a couple of times and I didn't say -nothing more to him. - -Mr. JENNER. You got the message? - -Mr. TOBIAS. And I figured that if he didn't want to talk to me, I -didn't want to talk to him. He come over and paid his rent, he paid his -rent and I give him a receipt, and that was all there was to it. - -Mr. JENNER. You never had any pleasantries on that occasion? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; there was no good morning or no good night or -nothing about it, and he would get up and go to the store to get the -groceries and she would carry the groceries and he would lead the way. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw that on more than one occasion? - -Mr. TOBIAS. I saw it a lot of times. - -Mr. JENNER. She did the lugging? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have an automobile? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any conversation with him or conversation -occurred in your presence as to whether he could drive an automobile? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No--no. - -Mr. JENNER. And when they moved away, they moved away in the -perambulator? - -Mr. TOBIAS. They moved away in that stroller. - -Mr. JENNER. They couldn't have had very much in the way of household -equipment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't have very much--all he had was books and what -little dishes they had and that wasn't very many and the baby bed. - -Mr. JENNER. You did see Marina from time to time after they moved out -of the apartment? - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I have seen her maybe, I'll say three or four -times--that's all I've seen her. She would go by and she would always -wave a hand at me and she would go down--I don't know to where to heck -she ever went to, but she always--when she was even living there, she -would go out onto Davis and I would watch her as she would go on up -to Zangs Street going towards town. Whether she was going to go see -somebody or just going for a walk, that, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Tobias, is there anything that occurs to you that you -think might be helpful to the Commission? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; I told you just like I told the FBI--I have tried to be -honest with all them and I have sat down and studied it and after the -FBI had come out there and see if I could think of anything else and I -told you just like I told the other 10--there has been 10 of them out -there. I even had one guy from the Detroit Times down there. Of course, -I was raised in Michigan and I told him to keep my name out of it and -he did and he didn't put it in there. All my people are up there and I -didn't want them to get tangled up in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I have concluded my questioning. If there is nothing -further you want to add, we appreciate this very much, your coming in, -and you might think that you are not furnishing us anything, but there -are kernels, you know, and pieces of the puzzle--there are small ones -and big ones. I offer Tobias Exhibit No. 2 in evidence. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, like I told my wife--anytime we can help out we will -and if you want us again, we are willing. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original -receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return -them to you and thank you very much for bringing them. - -Mr. TOBIAS. I have one of these I keep ever since I been in that -apartment and I been there for 3 years and a half and I have got every -receipt I ever wrote and I keep it on records and lots of times I have -to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into -them and that's the credit department. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Tobias, this deposition will be written up -in due course and you may read it and sign it. If you wish, you may -waive that--it's a privilege and a right you have if you want to sign -it, and if you want to waive it that's all right. - -Mr. TOBIAS. It would be sent to me? - -Mr. JENNER. You would have to come in here to read it. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. If you want to come in and read it you call Barefoot -Sanders' office, that's the U.S. Attorney's Office, and they will tell -you when it is ready to be read. Mrs. Tobias decided she would forego -that privilege--she didn't want to come in and read it. - -Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I'll talk to her too. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay; you'll call in and Mr. Sanders will probably call -you, but you will hear from him. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. - -[At this point Mrs. Tobias, the wife of the deponent, entered the -deposing room.] - -Mr. TOBIAS. The wife wants to talk to you about something. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, you said something about signing this; how is that -going to be? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, your husband decided he would like to see his and you -might like to see yours, so you might as well see yours? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. You will call us--you will let us know? - -Mr. TOBIAS. We will come in here, mother, and if you want to sign it, -and if you don't want to sign it we won't sign it. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, wait a minute--you come down and read it and if there -are any errors in it, that you want to correct, you correct them, but -you aren't going to refuse to sign it, are you? - -Mr. TOBIAS. No; I don't imagine I will. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you know what he said, Mr. Jenner? - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. TOBIAS. We got this letter and he said, "I thought we was going to -get around this Warren Commission--I didn't think we were going to have -to go before the Warren Commission." - -Is this going to be the end of it or is there still going to be some -more? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't tell you whether it will be the end of it or -not. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, we may go from here--that letter said any place in -the United States and if it did we would have to go; okay? - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. If you have to come to Washington, your -transportation will be paid. - -Mr. TOBIAS. That's all right, but just make it summertime. - -Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, of course we will be glad to come. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you both for coming. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. JESSE GARNER - -The testimony of Mrs. Jesse Garner was taken on April 6, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Jesse Garner, 4911 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La., after being -sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, examiner, testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take testimony -from witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and -joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand, Mrs. Garner, that Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your -husband last week advising you I would contact you concerning the -taking of your testimony. - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with the letter a copy of the -Executive order and of the joint resolution to which I have referred, -as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission -relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that not correct? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's right - -Mr. LIEBELER. We wish to inquire of you today, Mrs. Garner, concerning -your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald which you may have gained as -a result of your being the manager or one of the managers of the -apartment building in which Oswald lived while he was in New Orleans -from approximately May through September 1963. Before we get into the -details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record? - -Mrs. GARNER. Mrs. Jesse Garner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. GARNER. 4911 Magazine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mrs. GARNER. Vacherie, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life in Louisiana? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when you were born? - -Mrs. GARNER. March 16, 1919. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you and your husband -are the managers of the premises known as 4905-11 Magazine Street here -in New Orleans? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; we are. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been the managers of those premises? - -Mrs. GARNER. Four years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you describe briefly for us the nature of the -premises? - -Mrs. GARNER. The house, do you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, it is a double house. I live in one side, and the -other side has two apartments, and I have two apartments in the back, -unattached to the house upstairs and downstairs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that the half of the house -in which you and your husband live is known as 4911 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the front apartment, which I understand is one-half -of the rest of the house---- - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is 4907 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the rear of the other side of the house is a separate -apartment numbered 4905 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the spring of 1963 when you made -the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. When I talked to them, or what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. GARNER. Or when I rented him the place? - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first come in contact with him, and what was -your conversation with him, and what was the result of the conversation -you had? - -Mrs. GARNER. The only thing was when he come to rent the apartment, -there was another lady that brought him but they were in the car, but -I didn't notice the car. I didn't pay attention, and when she came to -the door to ring the bell, she told me he was looking for an apartment -and his mother and her was good friends, and she knew him from a -baby. Little Lee she called him, and that she had two places, I don't -remember exactly where she said--I think somewhere on Prythania, and -he went there first and they never had nothing empty, and she took him -riding and they saw my sign and stopped. I showed him the apartment, -and she took him through it, and she said it was very nice. She looked -at the screen porch and said it would be very nice for the baby. We -stood on the screen porch, and he asked me did I have any table lamps, -they didn't have any and his wife was going to come later, and we stood -on the porch talking and she was telling me how long she knew him, -since he was a little boy, and she was friends with his mother and he -had gotten married overseas, and she hadn't met his wife and hadn't -seen him for a long time, and that is when he took a picture out of his -wallet and showed a picture of his wife and baby. Not the baby, I don't -think he had a picture of the baby. Maybe he did, I don't remember. -Well, I told him, I said, well, that is nice, overseas girls make nice -wives at times, because I had one living upstairs not too long before -that, and I said they were real nice. He said, "Yes, one thing, they -don't give you no lip." I will never forget that. That is one thing he -said, and that's all I can really remember he said, and he paid me the -month's rent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much was that? - -Mrs. GARNER. $65. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did he pay that to you? Was it in cash? - -Mrs. GARNER. Cash; and he said that his wife would be coming in that -Sunday, the weekend you know. I think it was, it must have been on the -ninth. I don't remember exactly when the ninth was. What day was it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 9th of May, according to the calendar with which the -reporter has graciously supplied us, was a Thursday. - -Mrs. GARNER. Thursday. That weekend, that is when she came in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of this woman that was with -Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; she never said her name and I didn't ask her, but I -know she was a middle-aged woman in about her middle fifties or late -fifties, well kept, reddish looking hair with a ball in the back, and -she wore glasses; a well kept woman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they say specifically they had stopped at your place -because they had seen the sign advertising the apartment for rent? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; the sign, yes. She took him riding and seen the sign -out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation with either Oswald -or this lady that first time you met Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; that is about all, because then they left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald move back to the apartment, or move into the -apartment, before his wife came or did they come together and move in -together? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; he was in there a couple of days before she came. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember exactly when he moved in? Did he come -back later on the 9th, or did he come on the 10th? - -Mrs. GARNER. The next day, the next evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The next day. He moved in the next evening? - -Mrs. GARNER. The next evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been Friday the 10th? - -Mrs. GARNER. I don't know if he stayed there, but he was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did move some of his belongings in; is that correct? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about his belongings, what kind -of stuff he had? - -Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see that. I didn't see anything of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any suitcases he might have had? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when his wife came? - -Mrs. GARNER. That weekend; on that Sunday. That was a Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did she arrive? - -Mrs. GARNER. In this station wagon, that lady from Texas, that it had a -Texas license, blue and tan station wagon or blue and white, something -like that, and she also stayed a few days then when she brought the -wife in, she stayed at least a week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was a woman from Texas? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whom you later learned was named Mrs. Paine? Is that -correct? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice how many people there were in the -station wagon when it arrived? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I really didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice how many---- - -Mrs. GARNER. In fact, I didn't see the station wagon when it arrived; -I didn't see it until the next day. I saw it parked out there with the -Texas license and figured, you know, she had come in, his wife, because -that is where he told me she was coming from, Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later learn how many people were in the -apartment, or came in the station wagon? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when my husband talked to Mrs. Paine outside, he told -me she had two little girls. I didn't know it, I didn't see them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did Oswald himself have a little girl? - -Mrs. GARNER. A little girl, June. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald's wife? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I didn't know she was in a family way. I didn't know -she was going to have another baby when she rented the apartment, -because when I first saw her she didn't look that way to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say Mrs. Paine stayed in the apartment about a week. -Did you have any conversation with her during that time? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I never even saw the lady. I never saw her. I couldn't -tell you what she looked like. My husband saw her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say your husband had talked to her. Did he tell you -what she had said? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I never asked him and he never said nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any direct contact with either Oswald -or his wife after they moved into the apartment? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, the first thing, they was there a couple of weeks -and I have a window fan in the kitchen, and I take the screen down to -hose it and clean it, and I didn't put the screen back up. I just set -it on the screen porch, and a couple of weeks later he come to me and -asked me if I had a ladder and hammer, he was going to put the screen -up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the screen that belonged on the window---- - -Mrs. GARNER. The screen belonged on the outside of the kitchen. I have -a window fan and it gets dirty, and I take it off and hose it and clean -it, but I didn't put it back. I left it on the porch, and he wanted to -put it back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this a window fan in Oswald's kitchen? - -Mrs. GARNER. It was in Oswald's kitchen, and he wanted to put the -screen up and asked me was it all right to put the screen up, and asked -me would I loan him a ladder and a hammer. The hooks belonged to the -screen to hook the screen, they was off, but I loaned him two nails and -told him to tack the screen on so far, so I could take the nails off, -and that would be it, so his wife come outside in the meantime with the -baby, and they was talking Russian and I couldn't understand what they -were saying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know it was the Russian language then? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I don't know. I just put two and two together when -they come out with that Russian, but I knew she was Russian. He told me -she was Russian when they came to rent the apartment. I don't know what -made me say it, but I told him, I called him Lee, I said, "Lee, why -don't you talk English to your little girl and your wife? That way she -could learn to talk English, and when the little girl goes to school it -wouldn't be as hard on her." - -He said, "She has time enough to learn that," and he never had a nice -word to say to me after that. I think that must have made him hate me -or something like that, because he just passed me up all the time too, -and never turned his head to look. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get the screen back up? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he tacked it back up, and I got my ladder and hammer -back, and he never even said thank you or nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reason why he didn't speak -English to his wife and girl? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; that's all he said, they had plenty time enough for -that, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I did when she would be outside hanging clothes. I -tried to talk to her and to the baby, I talked to both, and she would -put her hands over her eyes and start crying. I asked her how she felt, -and she would just do like this with her shoulders. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She shrugged her shoulders? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; and when she would see you she would not try to say -hello, and she always wore little pedal pushers around the house with a -little shirt, and her hair was straight pulled back and pinned down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was Marina? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have long hair? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; long enough, about here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down to her shoulders? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other contact with Oswald yourself, -personally? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. One time I went for my rent, it was a few days past -due, the rent, and I mean, you know, when you let them go they wait too -long and they don't ever get it. It was a few days later, I was going -around the drive to see about my rent and he was starting out the drive -to catch a bus on the corner, and when he saw me he turned around and -looked, figured I was coming after the rent. I said, "Oswald, you got -the rent? The landlady is coming for the rent." He said, "Yes, I have -it." - -He was fixing to go to the bus, so he turned around to walk up the -drive to go get the money, and I said, "Go on where you have to go; I -will get it later," and he just pushed me aside and went by me and went -and got the money and handed it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually push you aside physically? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes, just like that, and I called to him and I said, -"Never mind; go where you have to go and I will get it later," and he -just took me like this and pushed me aside and just went, you know, -just went by me like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He actually laid his hands on you? - -Mrs. GARNER. Put his hands on me just like that, and pushed me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything? - -Mrs. GARNER. He didn't say a thing. He come back and gave me the money -and that was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you had any---- - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't talk to him any more than that, because I -noticed how he was, wouldn't answer you when you say good morning or -good evening, hello or good morning, so I just never bothered. The only -thing, at night he used to come past behind the house and always wore -trunks, yellow trunks with thongs, no top shirt, and he used to stuff -all my garbage cans and all the garbage cans on the street, and never -would talk to anybody, pass right by the door of the apartment of the -other people and never did talk to anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversation with him after this time -when you asked him about the rent? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, that's about it. The most I talked to him was when he -rented the apartment, that is the day he took it, and that lady done -most of the talking. In fact, she had given me her phone number to let -me call and let her know how Oswald was doing, and the wife when the -wife would come in. I figured what in the world I want that for and I -just threw it away and didn't bother with it. I didn't think anything -like this was going to come up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any visitors to his apartment, do -you know? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. As I said, I never did see anybody else around there -myself except this middle-aged man and middle-aged woman like I said -that come and picked him up one weekend on a Saturday and come back -that Sunday after, because I happened to be sitting on the box and saw -them come up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would this have been in July? - -Mrs. GARNER. About in July, I imagine. I know there was a lot of -mosquitoes around that time; I think it was July sometime. I am really -not sure. It was hot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did these people come to see Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. That is twice I seen, once I seen both of them come in the -evening one night, and they didn't stay very long, but I was sitting -outside. And that weekend, it was just him come to pick him up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the man come to pick up Oswald on two different -occasions? Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. One occasion they came. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man was with a woman on one occasion? - -Mrs. GARNER. At night one time, and then when he come to pick him up -for the weekend he was by himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether, he was there twice? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Once by himself? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And once with a woman; is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. If they was there before that, I didn't see them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You only saw him come twice? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this man? - -Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. Like I say, I am not too good at judging -ages. I would say in his late fifties or early sixties, something like -that. He had a high forehead, a high peak right here, and kind of -greyish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you describe him for us, please? Was he a white man? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be Spanish or Cuban extraction to you? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, no, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was fair complected? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are those the only two people you ever saw visit Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, there was that Cuban or Spanish looking guy one time -rang my bell in the late afternoon, kind of short, very dark black -curly hair, and he had a stack of these same pamphlets in his hand he -was spreading out on Canal Street there on the porch, and he had a -stack of them in his hand and he asked me about Oswald, and I said he -was living around on that side where the screen porch is, and I saw -those things in his hand and I said, "You are not going to spread those -things on my porch," and that was all, and I closed the door and went -on about my business. I don't know, but I guess he went over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many pamphlets did this man have in his hand? - -Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. You know how thin those things are, and he -had a stack about that high. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 inches or 6 inches, maybe? - -Mrs. GARNER. About that high. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About the width of your hand? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What color were they, do you remember? - -Mrs. GARNER. That I can't remember. They looked like yellow and pink, -all different colors. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this fellow? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, he was young. I don't believe he was young as -Oswald, but he was young, in his thirties I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he as tall as Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, he was shorter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Shorter than Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he wear sunglasses, if you remember? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, he didn't have sunglasses on because it was so late in -the evening, just about dark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he of a light build, or was he heavy set? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, I wouldn't say. He wasn't light, wasn't heavy; he was -in between that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have an accent, do you remember? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. That's why I said he was either Spanish or Cuban. I -don't know. He speaks broken English, like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this gentleman coming there? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI that this man had---- - -Mrs. GARNER. The pamphlets? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The pamphlets. - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to the FBI? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when this fellow came to -see Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I know it was around that time, -just right after he was picked up on Canal Street for distributing -them. It was a few days after that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about his arrest? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Canal Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes, I read it in the papers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You read about it in the newspaper? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald about that -incident? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, I don't think I did myself. No, I didn't talk to him -about that, because it was just before that happened on Canal Street -he had put them on the screen and I had my husband take them down, and -after that, that is when he was picked up on Canal Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was this incident with the screen? Would you tell us -about that? - -Mrs. GARNER. Those pamphlets, "Hands off Cuba," or something like -that. He had pamphlets on the screen porch in the front, and I told my -husband go take those things down, I didn't like them there. He went -and told him to take them down, and he said who suggested that, and he -said I did and he took them down and never gave us no trouble about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a picture that is marked Exhibit No. 1 -to the affidavit of your husband Jesse J. Garner, and I ask you if the -leaflet that you see in that picture is a picture of a leaflet like the -one Oswald put on the screen? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that's it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recognize the person in that picture? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that is Lee Oswald. I would recognize him from the -back of his head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be a picture of him handing out pamphlets -or sheets of paper on which appears the language, "Hands off Cuba," and -some other writing that can't be read. - -Mrs. GARNER. They had some other writing on the bottom, but I never -read it. I saw this "Hands off Cuba," and I didn't like it on the porch -and I made him take them down. That must have been taken on Canal -Street; it looks like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the surrounding area, the background of -the picture? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's what I said, it looks like it. It is either Canal -or Royal somewhere. I don't know. It might not be here; I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize the background for sure? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident---- - -Mrs. GARNER. Let me get my glasses. Maybe I can see better. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident concerning the leaflet on the screen -of the porch occurred, was that before or after Oswald had been -arrested? - -Mrs. GARNER. That was before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before he was arrested? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long before? - -Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I don't remember exactly all that, -but I know--I can't very well see, but it looks like around here -somewhere. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the two different people you have previously -mentioned as having visited Oswald, one the Cuban or Spanish fellow and -the other two for a total of three people you saw come to visit Oswald, -did you ever see anybody else come to visit in his apartment? - -Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Late in September sometime, as I understand it, this -station wagon that brought Oswald's wife to the apartment in the first -place returned? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; it did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it not? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving the station wagon at that -time? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see who was driving it. All I saw was the -station wagon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the person who came in the station wagon -that time? - -Mrs. GARNER. I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your husband see that person? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this time. - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband saw her and spoke to her. I never did see -her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you it was a lady, did he not? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the lady, from reading the newspapers, you and your -husband assumed that this was Mrs. Ruth Paine of Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself never met or talked to Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GARNER. I never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become aware of the fact that Oswald was employed -during the time that he lived in your apartment? Did you know anything -about his job? - -Mrs. GARNER. When he rented the apartment he told me he was working -at Reily Coffee Co. on Magazine, whatever you call it. It is a coffee -company, and as far as I know I didn't think he worked there as long as -he did, because he was always home, unless he worked at night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that Oswald had been dismissed from -the job, or no longer worked at Reily Coffee Co., if you ever learned -that? - -Mrs. GARNER. I said, it seemed like when he rented the apartment, I -didn't think he worked 2 or 3 weeks. Well, but I learned later he -didn't get laid off until July 19, something like that, unless they -changed shifts, because he was working in the day at first and I used -to see him get off the bus in the evening coming home, but then after -that I didn't see him any more. He was always sitting on the screen -porch reading. He must have been working at night. He was always on the -side porch, probably reading all the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say he read a lot? - -Mrs. GARNER. He sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see at any time what he was reading? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, it always was books, like those pocket books and -papers, real big books, regular books. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the names of any of the books? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; you couldn't get that near him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else did he do with his spare time besides reading? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's all I ever saw him do. To say if he ever went out -or anything like that, he would go back and forth, catch the bus and -go, and didn't stay long and come back. How many times he went out -at night or anything like that, I don't know. I really couldn't tell -you because I wasn't on that side. The few times I did see him I just -happened to be out there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about him wearing a bathing suit. - -Mrs. GARNER. That's all he always wore, all the time. Always he had -thongs on and yellow shorts, bathing trunks, and nothing on top walking -around the yard like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Also the Commission has been informed that Oswald spent -a considerable amount of time spraying bugs or insects of one sort or -another. - -Mrs. GARNER. He did. He done that, yes. He was always around the back -of the house where the bathroom window was, spraying some sort, and the -screen porch he would spray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him about this spraying activity of -his? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your husband did? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; he didn't. I don't guess he did; he never said -anything about it, but there were plenty of ants and I guess that is -why he was spraying. They always had a lot of ants, you know, and -roaches. I know they had a lot of roaches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Cockroaches? - -Mrs. GARNER. In that apartment, when they left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain to you about them? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. We never had them before he moved. Whenever we used to -spray, we had the pest control, but when he moved out they had plenty -of them. They left the place filthy, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The place was dirty when he left? - -Mrs. GARNER. Was it? The icebox was broken, the freezer door was broken -off, the stove was broken, the mattress was ruined. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was wrong with the mattress? - -Mrs. GARNER. I guess the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether his wife, Marina, liked the apartment? - -Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. She never did say anything about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She never did say anything about it? - -Mrs. GARNER. I never did talk to her about any apartment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself personally see when this station wagon -left? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It arrived late in September 1963? - -Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see when it left; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the last time you saw the station wagon, please? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, whatever day that was, Sunday or Monday, whenever -they left. It was about that morning. Like I said, early that morning -they was packing it up, and then later on through the day between 10 -and 11 I looked out there and it was gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This would be either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or -23? Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not exactly positive which it was? - -Mrs. GARNER. I am not sure whether it was Sunday or Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is pretty sure it was Monday. - -Mrs. GARNER. He is sure it was Monday; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d of September. - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no recollection that is contrary to that; is -that correct? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave, when he finally left the -apartment? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know when he left? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, I figure he left that same night, whatever day that -wagon left, myself. I don't think he come back. He might have come back -in that apartment to get his stuff, whatever he had. I don't think he -stayed there that night at all, that's what I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband said in the discussion we had with him -previously that he heard some noise in the apartment the night the -station wagon left. - -Mrs. GARNER. He might have heard him packing up stuff getting ready to -leave. I don't think he come back after he left that night; I think he -left that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did say he thought he heard these noises -about 7 or 7:30 in the evening. Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you think the noise he heard was just the noise -of Oswald getting his stuff and leaving? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; getting his stuff to get moving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you never saw Oswald around the place at -all after the day the station wagon left; is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody who lived in the -neighborhood or in the apartment house when actually Oswald did leave? -When we think about this question, let's first of all confine ourselves -to the period of time prior to the assassination. Were you concerned -about when Oswald left or how he left, prior to the time of the -assassination? - -Mrs. GARNER. You mean how he left? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is, did you talk to any of the neighbors or anybody -in the building? - -Mrs. GARNER. When they seen him leave? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they see him go? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I don't remember asking anybody, just figured that he -had skipped and left that night. I didn't bother asking anybody about -that, but later I was talking to Mr. Rogers, one of the tenants, and he -said yes, he seen him leave about that time that evening, the bus was -coming and he ran out with his suitcase. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the assassination, you talked to Mr. -Rogers? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; definitely after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you had been interviewed by the FBI and Secret -Service? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers--what is his full name; do you know? - -Mrs. GARNER. Eric Rogers; is all I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live there? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers told you he saw Oswald the same evening that -the station wagon left? Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he saw Oswald come out of the apartment house and run -to catch a bus? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it was about dark? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Rogers say how many suitcases Oswald had in his -hand? - -Mrs. GARNER. He just said with his suitcases or suitcase. I don't -remember exactly what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to tell us whether Oswald had one -suitcase, two suitcases with him when he left, or what? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Rogers didn't tell you? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't ask him. I don't remember. I don't remember, -really if it was the same day the station wagon left or not he told me, -and I don't think he even said that day it was, but it must have been -right after that, you know, what night or the next day. I feel like it -was that night. It must have been, because I know he didn't have any -reason to stay around there any longer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers didn't specifically say it was the same day? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say what kind of luggage Oswald had? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Oswald with any suitcases of any kind? - -Mrs. GARNER. I never was in the apartment. After they rented the -apartment, I never went in the apartment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw him outside with any luggage? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw what kind of luggage they were packing -in the station wagon? - -Mrs. GARNER. I saw boxes, but I never did see any luggage. I saw boxes, -and baby beds and playpens and stuff like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember noticing any specific suitcase of -any kind? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether Marina Oswald could -speak English or not? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't think she could speak English at all. When -I heard her on television say a few words, something like that, I was -surprised because at home she never said anything. And another thing, -she would nod, try to tell you hello when he wasn't there, but if he -was there like they was sitting on the steps or something, or they -would go through the drive and he was there, she wouldn't even look at -you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was more friendly and outgoing when Oswald wasn't -there? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when he was there, she wouldn't have nothing to say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a rifle or gun of any kind in the -apartment, or around the apartment? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or the station wagon, or just anywhere? - -Mrs. GARNER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any reason to believe that Oswald had a -rifle in his possession? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I never knew about that, never saw anything looked -like a gun or anything like that. Like I said, they have asked me that -so many times before, and they just packed this station wagon and if -he had a gun I don't guess he put it where anybody could see it, and -whatever was in the station wagon could have been, I mean anything with -value, because they took a few days packing it to leave and it sat out -there at night on the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Without locking, or do you know whether they locked the -station wagon? - -Mrs. GARNER. I don't know whether they locked it, but that don't do -much good in this city. It don't do any good to lock your doors; what -good does it do? I nail mine; that is better yet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody besides Mr. Rogers whether -or not Oswald left on the same day his wife did, or how he left? - -Mrs. GARNER. Do you mean in the neighborhood? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. GARNER. I never talked too much to them, you know, unless I might -be talking to Miss Eames next door and said he might have left that -same night or something like that, but that's about all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Mrs. Eames? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Doris E. Eames? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She lives at 4907 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; right next to Oswald's apartment, in other words, and -their kitchen windows was even to each other, across from each other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald get any mail that you know of while he lived -in the apartment 4907 or 4905 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of. I never went around the mailboxes to -find out that, never went around the mailbox to see what kind of mail, -and after he left I checked the mailbox and my husband found a light -and gas bill and sent it back to the company. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you said Oswald actually owed you about 2 -weeks' rent when they left. Is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Fifteen days, something like that, 2 or 3 weeks. I think -it was 3 weeks' rent, because the last time when I sent my husband to -see about the rent, I told him it was going to be 3 weeks, and, "You -know he isn't going to catch up with that and pay another month's rent -and stay here by himself." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He moved in on the 9th of May; is that right? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he left about the 22d of September or the 23d? - -Mrs. GARNER. About the 22d or 23d. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he would have had to pay up the rent through the 9th -of September? - -Mrs. GARNER. Through the 9th, the 9th of September; that was when. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the rent came due again? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he paid his rent for the month? - -Mrs. GARNER. You see, he was paid up to the 9th of September. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was paid through the 9th of September? - -Mrs. GARNER. Right; and after the 9th he started on another month but -never paid me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He left owing rent for the period from September 9 until -the time he left? - -Mrs. GARNER. The 24th or 23d, whatever date it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Louis N. Rico? - -Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I think that is my tenant in the back in the detached -apartment, away in the back downstairs, Louis Rico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They don't live there any more? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; they moved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they had anything to do with Oswald? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; he never did talk to him. Oswald wouldn't bother with -nobody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he could drive? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I couldn't answer that. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no way of knowing where Oswald went when he left -your apartment house, do you? - -Mrs. GARNER. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Oswald intended to stay on in the -apartment, at least that is what he had told your husband? - -Mrs. GARNER. That's what I figured all the time, and every time I -passed he was sitting on the porch, or either sitting by the lamp -inside of the living room when it was dark, reading. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you remember about Oswald? -Is there anything else you know about him that the Commission ought to -know that I have not asked you about? - -Mrs. GARNER. Well, like I say, every time I talk, I tried to think, and -there is really nothing. I just usually always stay by myself and never -go to the door unless I have to. The only thing is--I did hear a couple -of times like they were arguing and she would be crying. I guess they -were arguing, I couldn't understand the Russian language and she would -be crying, and that went on a couple of hours at a time, and I figured -that was family trouble. I couldn't even understand what they were -saying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they seem to have more family trouble than most -people, or do you think they got along fairly well? - -Mrs. GARNER. It is just about twice I heard it in the months they were -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression---- - -Mrs. GARNER. I didn't think they was arguing, because when they talk -that language it sounds like they are arguing all the time to me, but -those two times she happened to be crying, and I could hear her raising -her voice higher and him too. He was just abrupt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression they were having any -particular difficulty with their marriage, did you? - -Mrs. GARNER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't seem to have---- - -Mrs. GARNER. It didn't seem that way to me. You never did see them -together in the daytime. I saw them once when they left for that -weekend, and that is the only time they had left there together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She stayed at home pretty much? - -Mrs. GARNER. She stayed home all the time, and I see her coming from -the grocery store once in awhile. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe I have any more questions at this time, -Mrs. Garner, if you can't think of anything else you would like to add. -I think we can terminate the deposition. I do want to thank you for -the patience that you and your husband have shown to me and for the -cooperation you have given us in coming down here and testifying. On -behalf of the Commission I want to thank you both very much. - -Mrs. GARNER. I am only too glad to do it. Anything else we can do, it -would be all right. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JESSE J. GARNER - -The following affidavit was executed by Jesse J. Garner on May 5, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -Jesse J. Garner, being duly sworn says: - -1. My name is Jesse James Garner. I was born July 17, 1908, in -Hattiesburg, Mississippi. I have resided in New Orleans for the last 52 -years. - -2. I am presently employed as a cab driver for Toye Brothers and have -been so employed for the last twenty years. - -3. My wife and I reside at 4911 Magazine Street, New Orleans, -Louisiana, where we have resided continuously for the last four years. - -4. Number 4911 Magazine Street consists of one-half of a house located -at 4905-11 Magazine Street. The other half of the house is divided into -two apartments which go by the number 4905 and 4907 Magazine Street. - -5. Lee Harvey Oswald occupied the apartment known as 4905 Magazine -Street from May 9, 1963, to on or about September 23, 1963. He paid a -rental of $65.00 per month for the apartment, which was furnished, and -was directly responsible to the utility company for payment of gas and -electric bills. - -6. I first talked to Oswald about a month after he moved into the -apartment. I spoke to him about payment of the rent, because he was a -few days late in paying his rent for the second month he lived in the -apartment. He told me he would have the rent in a few days. I later -learned that he did pay the rent to my wife shortly thereafter. - -7. Oswald appeared to be a quiet sort of man and I did not talk to him -about anything other than the rent that first time that I met him. - -8. Sometime after that, my wife called to my attention that Oswald -had attached to the screen of his porch two hand circulars which read -something to the effect that the United States should lay hands off -Cuba. These circulars were about 4" by 6". - -9. I have examined a photograph which has been marked as Exhibit No. 1 -to this affidavit and state that the photograph shows Oswald handing -out a circular which is of the same kind he had attached to the screen -of his porch. - -10. I asked Oswald to remove the circulars and he asked me who -"rejects" to them. I told him that I objected to them and that I was -the only person who had to object to them. Oswald then took them down -without further comment and the subject was never mentioned between us -again. - -11. The next and last time I talked to Oswald was on Sunday morning, -September 22, 1963, when I noticed he had almost finished packing a -station wagon with his family's personal belongings. I asked him if he -was moving, since I was concerned that he then owed about 15 days rent. -Oswald told me that he was not leaving but that his wife was going -to Texas to have her baby after which she was going to return to New -Orleans. - -12. I did not see the station wagon leave, but I believe it left for -Texas sometime on Monday morning, September 23, 1963, but it could have -left sometime on Sunday morning. - -13. I didn't pay too much attention to the station wagon or to what -Oswald was doing, because I thought he was going to remain in the -apartment, as he had said. - -14. I never saw Oswald again after my conversation with him on Sunday -morning, but I thought I heard him in his apartment during the evening -(about 7:00 to 7:30 p.m.) of the day on which the station wagon had -left, i.e., either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or 23, 1963. - -15. I did not see or hear any activity in the apartment on the day -after the station wagon left for Texas. The next day which I believe -would have been Wednesday, September 25, 1963, I entered Oswald's -apartment and found that he had left and taken all of his belongings -with him. - -16. I never personally observed anyone visit Oswald or his family -during the time they lived at the above address. - -17. Oswald never seemed to respond to greetings from me and seemed to -be an unfriendly type of person. - -Signed on May 5, 1964, at New Orleans, La. - - (S) Jesse J. Garner, - JESSE J. GARNER. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RICHARD LEROY HULEN - -The testimony of Richard Leroy Hulen was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Will you please stand up and be sworn? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give -you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. HULEN. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. State your name, please. - -Mr. HULEN. Richard Leroy Hulen. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are connected with the YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In what capacity? - -Mr. HULEN. I am the associate director of the health club. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are appearing in lieu of whom? - -Mr. HULEN. Mr. John F. Campbell. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is the head of the health club, I take it? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And at present he is out of the city? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The YMCA that we are talking about is located where? - -Mr. HULEN. At 605 South Ervay in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. We are in the Federal Court House. How far away is that -from here? - -Mr. HULEN. Two blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. Hulen, that I am Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, that -the Commission was authorized pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution -137, as the group to investigate the tragedy of November 22, 1963, of -the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and -President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, shortly after the adoption -of the Senate joint resolution, appointed the Commission and authorized -it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses. - -We have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are -particularly interested in a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our -understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the YMCA that -you have identified. Would you describe your duties and those of Mr. -Campbell and describe the health club, and I should also add we are -interested in a man by the name of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein, and I -may ask you some questions about him as well. - -Mr. HULEN. Well, of course, Mr. Campbell is in charge of the -department. He does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders -supplies and supervises the operation in general and I take my orders -from him. - -Mr. JENNER. You are his assistant? - -Mr. HULEN. I am the assistant. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you been associated with the YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. Well, since 1945. - -Mr. JENNER. And during--you were doing this work at the downtown YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the health club is what sort of activity? - -Mr. HULEN. The health club is a businessmen's club. We have seven -masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have -ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of -gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells -and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and I could go on -and on. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. You have businessmen who come in, do -they join the club or pay a fee? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; we have a yearly membership fee. - -Mr. JENNER. If some guest who is a guest of the YMCA, wants to have a -rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to -use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee? - -Mr. HULEN. Not without paying a fee. He is a member if he lives in the -dormitory--he is a member of the YMCA, but not of the health club. -So, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might -be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices? - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Mr. Davis off the record, -pertaining to facilities and services at the YMCA.) - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Back on the record. Referring to these yearly -members, do you become acquainted with them? - -Mr. HULEN. Most of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted during your history with the YMCA -with a man in town here known as Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a member of your club? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have produced here for me a photostatic copy -of what is entitled and identified for the record, "Membership -application," and it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of -a membership application for one Jack Ruby. From where did you obtain -that exhibit? - -Mr. HULEN. From the membership office. - -Mr. JENNER. And this card, of which the document I have in my hands is -a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular -course of business? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photo -copy of the original of the membership application and card which is -maintained and is presently in the possession of the YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to have you explain some of the things -here for me--on the form, which has been marked Hulen Exhibit No. 1, -under the printed designation, "Firm name," appears as typed, "Club -Vegas," sir. Would you explain what that is? - -Mr. HULEN. I think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his -business address. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the business address of Jack Ruby or Jack -Rubinstein. Club Vegas is some kind of a club here in Dallas? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, or at least it was at the time this application -was made out? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. And is still operating, incidentally. - -Mr. JENNER. And it says opposite, "Type of membership,"--there appear -two initials, "SH" what do they signify? - -Mr. HULEN. Special health. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean? - -Mr. HULEN. That means all of the facilities will be available to that -member except the massages. - -Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of the card there appears the heading, -"Membership account," and then there are columns in which there are -long hand entries. These columns are headed, "Date due, amount, -payments, card," and some entries. For example, for purposes of -explanation, the first entry on the reverse side on this form I have -described under "date due," appears 9-10-58. I take it that is a date -meaning September 10, 1958? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the next column which is headed "Amount," there appears -$65. Then under "Payments," that column is split in two--the left hand -one reads and is headed by the word "Date," and the entry there is 9-2. -I assume that is September 2, but no year, and then under the column -headed, "Amount," appears $30. Would you explain that type entry? - -Mr. HULEN. Well, at the time, in 1958, our membership fee for the -special health club membership was $67, and there is a $2 cash saving -if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get -our amount $65, and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is, -the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in 30 days, but -apparently this wasn't paid in 30 days, but he still received benefit -of cash payment. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that form indicate that the health fee was paid? - -Mr. HULEN. Oh, yes; yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. It was paid--on what date? - -Mr. HULEN. It was 11-12-62, the last payment. The first payment was -made on 9-10-58, wait a minute, I am wrong. It was then when he joined, -the first payment was 9-20. In other words, that 9-10 was their billing -date and he joined on 9-2 and they billed him on 9-10, and his second -payment which was supposed to have been paid in 30 days was paid on -11-12-58. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with this. I'm just -groping here myself. This is handled in another office. You will notice -that the date due here was 9-10-59, again, you see, and this will -denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he -wasn't active, as you will notice there. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed it. Now, it would appear that the first two -columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the second set of columns under the heading "Payments," -indicates payments that were made? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the 10th of -September 1958, in the amount of $65, and then in the next two columns -that he paid on September 2, $30, and he paid on November 12, $35 or -a total then by that time of $65, that had been billed or was to have -been paid by September 10? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He actually completed his payment on November 12? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, the next entry appears to be one of $65 for the -following year, that is for 1959, due on November 1, 1959, and then -there is an entry under the "Payments," column of the receipt of $65, -on the 22d of October, that is, there was a prepayment there in 1959. - -Then, for 1962, the "Due Date," was April 20, 1962--$74. Apparently -your fee went up? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. And there are entries of two payments, one a $25 on the -18th of April 1962, and the second of $49, on the 3d of August 1962, so -he was then paid up? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And for 1963, there is an entry of a payment due on the 1st -of June 1963, of $30 and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment -on the 23d of May 1963, of $60. - -What does that indicate, that is, here for 1962, he was a $74 member -and in 1963, he appears to be only a $30 member? - -Mr. HULEN. Oh, I've got it now. If a person for some reason cannot take -out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we -would let him have a 3-month membership which would explain the $30. At -that date he was on the 3-month membership. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. HULEN. A short-term membership, we call it. - -Mr. JENNER. At the bottom of this form there is written, "Do not -renew," 11-28-63, meaning November 28, 1963. What does that mean? - -Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told -the stenographer in the membership office that if Ruby ever came back -for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and -she wrote that on there just for her own information. Actually, it was -a joke. - -Mr. JENNER. If he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal -would have been granted him? - -Mr. HULEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It would not have been? - -Mr. HULEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Why is that? - -Mr. HULEN. I don't know, Mr. Urquhart made the statement that it is, it -was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll try to bring that out, is the entry "Do not -renew," of November 28, 1963, is that something in jest? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. In my opinion, I think he was just being facetious. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious? - -Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, Mr. Ruby did not renew his membership? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1963? - -Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. "J.C.", I assume is John Campbell? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite -an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the initial entry fee, there -appears in writing, "Wants to pay up in month's time. Okay, J.C." That -indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when Ruby -joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay -up. - -Mr. HULEN. I think that means that if he made the complete payment -of the yearly membership in 2 payments within 30 days, that he would -receive benefit of the discount. - -Mr. JENNER. I see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within 30 days, his -payment, first payment was made on the 2d of September of $30, and his -second payment of $35, was made on November 12, 1958, so you gave him -the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the 30 days? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; that explains---- - -Mr. JENNER. So, he had a full year $65 membership for the year 1958, -that is, 1 year from the time he joined which was September 10, 1958, -and he rejoined at the same rate on--$65, a year, on November 1, 1959, -and then in 1962, he had a $74 membership, which was really an increase -in your charge? - -Mr. HULEN. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. For 1 year commencing October 1, 1959--but he didn't get -around to paying it, apparently until the following spring, which was -the $25, on the 18th of April and the $49, on the 3d of August, and -then on June 1, 1963, he took out a 3-month or a 90-day short term -membership? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; a short-term membership. - -Mr. JENNER. That expired on September 1st of that year, is that correct? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. Did Ruby ever live -at the YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the records of the YMCA have been -checked to determine or confirm that? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. But as--at least as far as your personal recollection is -concerned, you do not recall his ever having been a guest in what you -call the dormitory? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you recall Mr. Ruby using the Health Club -facilities? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do--very well. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you ever recall having any contact with or seeing a -person known as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At the suggestion of Mr. Sorrels, of the Secret Service, -have you caused an examination to be made of the guest record of the -YMCA to determine whether a person by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald or -Lee Oswald was ever a guest at the YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. I wouldn't be in a position to know--I'm not familiar enough -with that and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it so I don't know -what has been done or what has been requested. - -Mr. JENNER. You have brought to me today a longhand sheet which appears -on ruled notepaper and is what purports to be a list of registrations -for one Lee Oswald during the year 1962, and another entry, one for the -year 1963, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. From whom and from what source did you -obtain this document? - -Mr. HULEN. From Mr. McRee's secretary, who is the resident manager. - -Mr. JENNER. McRee is the resident manager? - -Mr. HULEN. Mr. McRee is the resident manager. - -Mr. JENNER. And his secretary furnished you this slip of paper? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she advise you from what source she obtained these -entries? - -Mr. HULEN. I made the entries myself from her records of the payments. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand--you prepared this and it is in your -handwriting? - -Mr. HULEN. That is correct; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain the information on this -piece of paper? - -Mr. HULEN. From her receipts of payment for room rent. - -Mr. JENNER. And those are records that are kept by the YMCA in the -usual and regular course of business? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you personally examined them? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you find, when you personally examined those receipt -records, any receipts in the name of a person named Lee Oswald. - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You actually saw on the receipts the name "Lee Oswald"? - -Mr. HULEN. I sure did. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you have listed under the first heading of "Lee -Oswald," a series of dates, October 15, October 16, October 17, and -October 18, 1962, in each instance. Then, in parentheses following -those entries in the the same sequences appears the name Burge and -the name Burgess and the name Burge again and then the name Barker. -Following those in the same descending sequence are serial numbers: -"L-18198." In your last column and in the same sequence are dollar -figures: "3.25, 2.25, 2.25 and again 2.25." Now, would you explain -those entries, please? - -Mr. HULEN. Well, he checked in on 10-15-62. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HULEN. Lee Oswald check in on 10-15-62. The desk clerk at that -time was a Mr. Burge, and the L-18198, was the number of the receipt -which was given Lee Oswald, and the amount of $3.25, was $2.25 for the -night's lodging and $1 deposit on the room key, which is refunded when -it is returned to the front desk. Shall I go on? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. And then there is an additional set of entries below -those we have now described and they read, "Lee Oswald, [spelling] -T-o-r-o, Calif.," and the next line October 3, 1963----Barker? - -Mr. HULEN. Barker was the desk clerk, and the M-15593 was the number of -the receipt and $3.25 was the room fee and a $1 deposit on the key. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, those entries record the fact then that Oswald was a -guest at the YMCA October 15th through October 19th, both inclusive, -and again on October 3, 1963? - -Mr. HULEN. Through October 18th, I believe it is, isn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. It shows he was a guest at the YMCA October 15, 16, 17, 18, -and 19, of 1962, and again on October 3 and to October 4, of 1963? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the examination of the receipts for lodging of guests -at the YMCA reveal only those entries you have now described and are -listed on this sheet of paper with respect to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The years--during the years 1962 and 1963? - -Mr. HULEN. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And had he been a guest and registered in on any other -occasion during the years 1962 and 1963, would there have been and -would there be now a registration entry and a receipt for payment of -the character you have described? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I am sure there would be. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we would like the YMCA to furnish us photostatic -copies of those five receipts just as you have furnished us a -photostatic copy of Mr. Ruby's membership application. - -Mr. HULEN. I would be glad to do it. - -Mr. JENNER. We would appreciate it very much. - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And if we can have those this afternoon, we would like it. - -Mr. HULEN. I'm sure we can arrange it and give them to you. Shall I -bring them right here? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do and we will give them to Miss Oliver and she -can incorporate them in the transcript. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 2. - -To be best of your recollection and drawing on whatever knowledge you -have, you don't recall anybody by that name, Lee Oswald, ever having -used the Health Club facilities? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. And you know Jack Ruby well enough--do you recall this -person Lee Oswald ever having been in the company of Jack Ruby at the -YMCA? - -Mr. HULEN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of Lee Oswald on television and in -newspapers and magazines? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And that person is clear in your mind--do you recall his -physical characteristics? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you are able to say with a reasonable degree of -certainty, so far as you are concerned, that you never saw that person -using the Health Club facilities and you never saw him in the company -of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HULEN. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what kind of a fellow Ruby was? - -Mr. HULEN. Well, I found---- - -Mr. JENNER. In your general impression? - -Mr. HULEN. I found Jack Ruby to be friendly and courteous and a -well-behaved person. He seemed to have a lot of enthusiasm about -anything that he liked. He generated a lot of enthusiasm around that. -For instance, any athletic events or sports he discussed--he discussed -that with the other members, which is the usual topic of well-known -weight lifters, for instance, there are several--Reeves and Stanko and -I can name several of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Ruby a weight lifter? Did he dabble at that? - -Mr. HULEN. Well, I should define weight lifting and body building. -Weight lifting is competing, like you have in the Olympics, which is -heavy lifting. In other words, you go to your maximum. Now, in body -building, you take a minimum amount of weight and exercise longer--in -other words, if you work with the heavy weights you can't work as long -with the heavy weights as you can with the lighter weights, and Ruby -was more of a body builder. In other words, he worked with the lighter -weights over a longer period of time. In other words, he was not after, -in my opinion, he wasn't after a large body or bulging muscle, he just -wanted to stay in a good general physical condition. - -It wasn't necessary for me to set up any kind of a program for him. He -had had experience in the past and he knew pretty well what he wanted -to do, so actually there was very little, if any, supervision on my -part. He used the facilities and behaved very well and I found him to -be a nice person to talk to--to visit with. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. Leave the deposition open for the moment, -Miss Oliver, because Mr. Hulen will return with the photostatic copies -of those records and we will close his deposition when we take care of -that. - -Mr. HULEN. Now, I will be tied up until about 1. Would 1:30 or 2 -o'clock be agreeable with you? - -Mr. JENNER. 2 o'clock is fine. - -(At this point the witness Hulen left the deposing room, the -proceedings of the deposition to be resumed at 2 p.m., of this same -date, April 1, 1964, and were resumed as follows:) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen has kindly returned this afternoon with copies of -the receipts to which he made reference in his testimony and of which -he supplied a longhand list on ruled notebook paper, Hulen Exhibit -No. 2. Now that we have the originals, we can substitute them. They -are five in number, and I identified them as entitled "Receipts Young -Men's Christian Association of Dallas Downtown Branch." They are signed -respectively by "Burge [spelling] B-u-r-g-e" and "Barker." We will work -them in order of dates, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 6, and the -receipt of October 3 as Hulen Exhibit No. 7. I take it they were desk -clerks? - -Mr. HULEN. The desk clerks. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Burge registered in Mr. Oswald on October 15, 1962, is -that correct? - -Mr. HULEN. That's correct--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the receipt shows the room number, room No. 415. Does -that indicate the room to which he was assigned? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then there is $2.25, and underneath, opposite that, -"Deposit--$1, total $3.25." And that represents the charge for the room -and key deposit you testified about this morning? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The next one is dated October 16, 1962, also--name: Lee -Oswald, same room, $2.25, initialed, however--it looks like "HB", or is -this "W. Burgess." - -Mr. HULEN. Correct; Burgess. - -Mr. JENNER. He is also a registration clerk or desk clerk? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is dated the 17th of October 1962, in the name of -Lee Oswald, the same room number, $2.25, signed by Mr. Burge, whom we -have already identified. The next is dated October 18, 1962, the same -name--Lee Oswald, same room number, same amount, but this time signed -by just one word "Barker." Is this a Mr. Barker or Miss Barker? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes--Mr. Barker. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he also a room clerk or registration clerk? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes; he is. - -Mr. JENNER. And the last in this series is dated October 3, 1963, and -in this instance it is in the name of Lee H. Oswald, and it shows an -address, whereas, none of the other of the first four had an address, -and the address is listed here as Toro [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif. -[Spelling] C-a-l. - -I notice something on the first of the series which I notice again -on this one of October 3, 1963, which is the printing on the line -entitled, "Membership fees," and there is the word written in -longhand, "service." That's true of the first and the last of these -receipts--what does that indicate? - -Mr. HULEN. That indicates that he was a serviceman and that, in my -opinion, that waives the membership fee. - -Mr. JENNER. The room number on the October 3 receipt is 601. That, as -in the case of the others, indicates the room to which he was assigned? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On this visit on October 3? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That line says, "Room 601 to 10/4," meaning October 4, I -assume. - -Mr. HULEN. I imagine--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. $2.25 is shown for the room and a dollar for the key -deposit, which I take it means he was charged $2.25 for that Room 601, -for 1 day or 1 night, plus a dollar to cover the key deposit? - -Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir--that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that concludes Mr. Hulen's deposition. I offer -Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3 to 7, both inclusive. And we may close the -deposition at this point. - -Mr. Hulen, I didn't mention this this morning, but you may read over -your deposition when Miss Oliver has completed it and if you will call -in to the U.S. Attorney's Office here, Mr. Barefoot Sanders or his -secretary will know when it is ready for you to read it. - -Mr. HULEN. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And if you have any corrections, we would like to have them -and then you sign the deposition, or you may waive the signature now, -if you wish. - -Mr. HULEN. All right, I will waive the signature. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF COLIN BARNHORST - -The testimony of Colin Barnhorst was taken at 11:40 a.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Please stand and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. BARNHORST. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of -the legal staff of the President's Commission which was authorized -to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson -in Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and specified its -powers pursuant to the legislation I have just identified to you. -The duties of the Commission are to investigate the assassination of -President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22nd of November 1963. - -And that entails our inquiry into various facts and circumstances and -incidents, some of them involving a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. We -understand that Mr. Oswald was a guest at the YMCA here in downtown -Dallas, and we would like to ask you a question or two in that respect. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Twenty-one. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you employed by the downtown YMCA here in Dallas? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is located where? - -Mr. BARNHORST. 605 North Ervay. - -Mr. JENNER. When did your employment commence? - -Mr. BARNHORST. October 14. - -Mr. JENNER. What year? - -Mr. BARNHORST. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. State the nature of that employment and your hours? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Desk clerk and mainly checking in and out guests--that -is the primary duty and my duties involve making change and the usual -reports and things like that. My hours are from 4 to midnight 4 nights -a week. - -Mr. JENNER. 4 in the afternoon until midnight 4 nights a week? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Then on Friday night--midnight to Saturday morning 8 -a.m. every week, and every other week from midnight to 8 a.m., on -Thursday night, so I alternate 6 days and 5 days. The particular week -of all this I had worked Thursday night also. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you on duty at any time so as to bring to your -attention the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was or had become a guest at -the YMCA? - -Mr. BARNHORST. You mean at the time---- - -Mr. JENNER. At the time. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I wasn't working there when he was a guest. I know -when he was there, but I wasn't working there. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. Have you personally examined the records of -the YMCA in that respect? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And those records are of what character? - -Mr. BARNHORST. They are a daily report on transients in and out with -permanents in and out and the number of rooms, and a copy goes to the -residence manager and a copy stays at the household and a copy is sent -to and, well, it is placed on our desk copy. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you examined those records for both the years 1962 -and 1963? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No; only the month of October 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Only the month of October 1963. In examining that month did -you examine each day of the month, that is, the records relating to -each day of that month? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Originally--yes, and I have looked at them also, -actually, I guess for September, because I had stayed there one night -and I had looked back to see which room I was in and I was just curious -and in looking back--later on--I saw there was a Lee H. Oswald. He was -in room 601, because I looked at it last night after the man called me -and it is still on the desk. - -Mr. JENNER. He occupied the room 601 when? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Until the morning or early part of the afternoon of -the 4th of October. I say that because the clerk who was on was Eva -Marshall. Her name was beside the checkout. So, she was the one who -would have checked him out and she works on the day shift and at that -time she was working day shift and that would have been about 10 days, -I guess, before I went to work there and she was filling in there -because the clerk had quit, which is why they hired me. I don't know -who the clerk was. I only found the checkout, I didn't ever see the -check-in--I think I did see it one time. And I think it was October 3, -the day before. - -Mr. JENNER. The check-in was October 3? - -Mr. BARNHORST. I remember that from sometime ago, but I just happened -to see the checkout. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what kind of records you keep--you keep a receipt? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Well, maybe I can describe these when he checks in to -see step by step what happens, because there is a little blue card -with a stub on it and we call this a transient register card. He fills -in his name and the phone number and membership, if any, and a number -of other details, if it has anything to do with such as when his -membership expires, if he is in the service, his service number or some -other things, and then we fill out a triplicate receipt for his room -rent. In this case he paid for 1 night and then we give him a receipt -and a receipt stays in the register and a receipt goes in the drawer -and, of course, we fill out the rest of the stub--the receipt number, -the amount paid, and we fill out his name and his room number on the -stub and the price of it and so forth for the operator to put his name -up on the board, and he came in fairly early on the 3d, because the -operator---- - -Mr. JENNER. What is the board you mentioned something now about? You -mentioned something new. - -Mr. BARNHORST. This is a board we have for locating anyone in the -building at that time, who is staying in the building. It is a PBX -machine and is in the nature of a board up on the wall and it has -several sections. It is a flip-type board and you put a little narrow -slip of paper with their name and room number on it. That's for the -telephone operator. - -Now, he must have come in fairly early on the 3d, if he came in in the -evening, because in fact, he did come in in the evening. Mr. Barker -checked him in because I know the evening operator typed his name in -and so that would place him coming in in the evening sometime before -10 o'clock, because that's about when she leaves, and after that they -are typed up by the--either the night clerk or the next operator in -the morning. Then, in the evening, it is put on a ledger sheet and -we have two types--we have one for the permanent guests for their -personal account, and for just general transients that pass through, -we have a group account. We just put the last name and the amount paid -and whether or not they paid a membership fee. And, I might mention he -didn't pay a membership fee when he came in. There is only two ways -a person can pay that and that is either be in the service or have a -membership card and I don't think he was registered as a member. He -may have tried to pass himself off as a serviceman, but that's just in -passing--that's not on the record--but--then, we make this daily report -which is what I saw his name on last night. That is a long sheet and it -has a list of room numbers in numerical order and then the name of the -person who checked into that room that day and anybody who checked out -of the room that day, and any transfers. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen, when he testified a few moments ago, testified -with respect to his having checked over receipts showing payment for -lodging and he assembled a list and he is going to obtain photostatic -copies of them and return them this afternoon and return with them. Are -you returning to the YMCA after you leave here? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No, I can--it's just across the street. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I would appreciate it if you would speak with Mr. -Hulen who made copies of the entries from the records--I would like to -have in addition to the copies of the receipts, photostatic copies of -the registration card you have mentioned. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is a check-in card, did you call it a check-in -card? - -Mr. BARNHORST. A transient register card, and do you want the daily -report? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. BARNHORST. How about this one in our ledger book? - -Mr. JENNER. I would like that as well. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Because the clerk would be Mr. Michaels, depending on -what night of the week it was. Probably Mr. Michaels--chances are it -was he that made out that report. He is not with us now, but he didn't -report any membership fee paid at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would indicate that none was paid? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a difference in charge or rate for a room -depending upon whether you are a member of the YMCA or a serviceman? - -Mr. BARNHORST. From what I know, Mr. Oswald--he should have paid -$3.75 or $2.25 for a room, 50 cents for membership and $1 for the -key deposit. No doubt he paid the room rent because that's on the -record and the key deposit or else he wouldn't have gotten a room, but -the key deposit isn't listed in the ledger at all. It is a separate -account because we refund it and in the ledger we list memberships and -we separate that from the key deposits. Because it is in a separate -account. Now, I didn't see any membership fee by his name. - -Mr. JENNER. But does an ex-serviceman receive this reduced rate? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Not if he has been out a minute or more, at least I -never give it to him. Now, I always check the ID cards. Mr. Barker, I -believe, does not, but of course any serviceman could rattle off his -service number 20 years after he got out and I found that out quite -early so I have been checking them and I have had several fellows who -were trying to get away with it--they usually had forgotten it or say -they would be back in a minute and they don't come back and it was -embarrassing to me, and Mr. Barker has been there a long time. He -wouldn't write up a membership unless he was a serviceman. - -Mr. JENNER. These registration cards show---- - -Mr. BARNHORST. They don't show which one it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Would they show the address that the guests gave? - -Mr. BARNHORST. We always ask for an address, try to get an address -from them. Occasionally we don't. Occasionally they just sort of don't -put it on there and you say, "Well, I would like to have an address on -there." And they will say, "I plan to stay here." It should show an -address on there of some kind. - -Mr. JENNER. And among the papers I have asked to have photostated will -that appear? - -Mr. BARNHORST. If he gave an address, it will be there. Now, I came -across one fellow--I told a couple of the FBI men, because so many of -them were over there to talk to me--there's always around the YMCA -somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of -people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that -he knew Lee in New Orleans. Now, he is a little character and his IQ -matches his height. I'm not making personal opinions, you understand, -but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. He did come by and he, I -believe, stayed on the same floor, if I remember right. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a guest? - -Mr. BARNHORST. He was a permanent resident and he was one of these -fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened -to bounce in the same town all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Joseph R. Hummel. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] H-u-m-m-e-l? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he still a guest there? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No; he moved out 2 or 3 months ago. We have a forwarding -address, I believe because his mail isn't here any more--that would -indicate a forwarding address. In fact, I believe I put the forwarding -address in the box. It's over there and I can probably get it for you. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would do that and also give that to Mr. -Hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to -me. - -Mr. BARNHORST. The night watchman over there told me one time--I -mentioned "Little" Joe, or heard "Little" Joe talking about it one -night and I wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman -says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and -"Little" Joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he -has been in New Orleans possibly about that time, so if I didn't know -that, I would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like -that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right -time. So, the FBI--I don't know whether they did anything about it or -not, but I just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person -around that I know of that remembers knowing Oswald or when he was -there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it. - -Apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures I have -seen, he's like a hundred and one guys I have checked in over there, -and the only reason I would watch him if I suspected he might be a -homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we -watch for them and try to see if they are going to--to see the people -they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. I -don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it -has been talked about some. - -Now, Mr. Barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have -over there who the roof could fall in on--just so it didn't fall in -over the part that was his desk--it wouldn't matter. - -Mr. JENNER. It wouldn't matter to Barker? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he still working there? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; he's about 79. He just lives and lets live. He -checks them in and checks them out. Somehow, maybe it's better that -way but I have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the -other, about it. - -Mr. JENNER. What hours does Barker have? - -Mr. BARNHORST. He works the same hours I do--four to midnight except -he works the three nights of the week that I don't and then works on -Saturday and Sunday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. He and I share the weekend -pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Barker checked in Oswald, according to your -records? - -Mr. BARNHORST. According to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. On those records? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Right. And Eva Marshall is the one who checked him out, -and I am personally pretty positive it was Mr. Barker because the -telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barker signed the receipt of payment of $3.25, for this -day on October 3 and 4? - -Mr. BARNHORST. It was $3.25 then? - -Mr. JENNER. It says $3.25. - -Mr. BARNHORST. It should have been $3.25, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Barker apparently charged him out on the 18th of -October 1962, and he paid $2.25 for the last day of that 4-day stay in -October 1962. Mr. Burge apparently checked him in because the receipt -is signed by Mr. Burge, on the 15th of October. - -Mr. BARNHORST. If they still do the same thing as they did then that -would pinpoint the time when he came in. Mr. Burge relieves us in the -evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that -falls invariably between 5 and 7 because the cafeteria closes at 7:30. - -Mr. JENNER. So, with Mr. Burge checking the man in, that would indicate -that was at night or in the evening? - -Mr. BARNHORST. In the evening. - -Mr. JENNER. It would be sometime after 4 in the afternoon? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Sometime after 5, because he wouldn't come in until 5. - -Mr. JENNER. And if Mr. Barker either checked somebody in or checked -somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it? - -Mr. BARNHORST. It depends on the day of the week. If it was on the -weekend, it would be between 8 and 4. It would--if it was on a -weekevening, I mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. That's -presuming, of course, I'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as -he does now. Of course I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, October 15, 1962, was a Monday? - -Mr. BARNHORST. A Monday--well, then, that meant that he was very -possibly working the shift I am working now, because he's off Monday -and Tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. I am presuming -that he wasn't working full time for us then. - -Mr. JENNER. But if he did work, it was at night? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I'm pretty sure it would be. I don't think he was -ever a day clerk. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I appreciate very much your coming in. You have -been helpful and if you will relate to Mr. Hulen my desire for these -additional records, photostatic copies, I would appreciate it. He said -he was going to return about 2 o'clock this afternoon. - -Mr. BARNHORST. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. If he has those, you might speak with him--you see he is in -the health department. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know just how familiar he is with these records, -but he may be able to explain them. - -Mr. BARNHORST. He might and he might not be. He probably might not be -familiar with the midnight reports. We make these daily reports where -his name would be at the desk. - -Mr. JENNER. Where the guest's name would appear at the desk? - -Mr. BARNHORST. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. The name of the guest. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be, on a permanent form. We have a sheaf -of papers--we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back, -that goes back to Noah and if we had Noah, it would be on that. It had -everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, I know of -course it covers Oswald because I saw it on there. - -Mr. JENNER. You actually saw it? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact as late as last night? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; and I remember it was "Lee H." Now, it doesn't -necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "Lee H." -It could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the -names for space. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that room 601, was the room he occupied on the 3d of -October 1963, or was it the room he occupied in 1962? - -Mr. BARNHORST. In 1963. I didn't see the one in 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in -1962--appears on these records you have described? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Well; I would say it would be there unless it had been -mutilated, and it's double checked by this Mr. McRee's secretary. He is -the resident manager. It is double checked by her to see that all the -stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are -matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them -stuck together. - -Mr. JENNER. I hesitate to press you but in view of your great -familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly -inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with -those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at 2 -o'clock, with Mr. Hulen. - -Mr. BARNHORST. The photostats or the originals? - -Mr. JENNER. The photostats. - -Mr. BARNHORST. At 2 o'clock? - -Mr. JENNER. Please, and you would be in a position to say that the -photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and -cards that you personally saw in the YMCA. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And if you will return, then I will not close your -deposition now, but I will wait until 2 o'clock. Thank you very much. I -appreciate your coming in. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I realize this is just details that you have to -have. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BARNHORST. I'll be back at 2 o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. - -(At this point the witness Barnhorst was excused from the deposing room -and returned to same at 2 p.m. on this same day, April 1, 1964, and his -deposition was continued as follows:) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the balance of Mr. Barnhorst's deposition. You thought -you might be able to obtain some records for me, Mr. Barnhorst. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; I was not able to obtain the blue card record. -The FBI has that. That's the notice from Mr. McRee in his handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. "The FBI"--I am reading the note, "The FBI has the register -cards for October 3, 1963. 1962 has been destroyed and we didn't keep -them that long." - -Mr. BARNHORST. This is a sample register card just for your own -information. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient -register card," which he described this morning. The card is entitled, -"Transient register card." It has a stub entitled "Transient," and is -light blue in color. We will mark it Hulen Exhibit No. 8. - -Mr. BARNHORST. And that Toro, Calif.--I can identify that as a Marine -base, I believe, you've probably heard the name of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. BARNHORST. That would have appeared as an address on the blue card -in October 1963, because that's the only place where Mr. Barker could -have gotten the information. - -Mr. JENNER. The receipt as to that occasion which I have described in -the record, dated October 3, 1963, Lee H. Oswald, opposite the word -"address," does have "Toro, Calif." So, in the normal course, I take it -that that address would have been furnished to the registration clerk, -and in this case, Mr. Barker? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be on the blue card. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; the blue card, the sample of which you have furnished -me? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; also, Mr. McRee, the resident manager, says that -Mr. Oswald produced an identification card, which is not hard to -believe because he could have simply claimed to have lost it, his ID, -when he was in the service, and had them make him another one and -turn in the one he had made. I've seen fellows do that quite often. -It is usually used for getting into PX's and USO's. This is from our -ledger sheets, these I have here that are dated in the red left-hand -column--everywhere there is a red checkmark on there, Mr. Oswald's name -appears with a receipt number, the amount paid, his last name, also -that he never paid any membership fees, but only the room fees. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, you have handed me three cards from the original -records of the downtown YMCA--they are three sheets. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Written on both sides. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; written on both sides. I will mark them commencing -with the earliest date on the exhibits, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, -and 11. Would you identify the sheets? What are they, what kind of -record? - -Mr. BARNHORST. They are original ledger sheets for a transient guest -and they are for the purpose of recording temporarily that the -registrar has paid certain fees, because oftentimes they lose their -receipts. They come down and we copy into this register--which is -placed in a file, the amount that they paid. It is to guarantee that -there is no confusion on the amount that is paid. - -Mr. JENNER. And do these three register cards that I have in my hand -cover all the month of October 1963? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; they don't. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry, do they cover the month of October 1962? - -Mr. BARNHORST. I don't know whether they do--I doubt it--I think they -would only cover the days before and after the time which you are -interested in. They cover from October--October 15th through October -19th. - -Mr. JENNER. May I call your attention to the last of the cards, which -is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 11, the first entry on which is dated -October 2, 1963, and that is for 1963, I'm sure? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; the 1962 cards, marked Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9 and -10, respectively, run from October 15th through October 19th. - -Mr. JENNER. And they consist of two sheets? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In selecting these two sheets covering the 15th through the -19th, did you examine the ledger sheets for the balance of the month? - -Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; Mr. McRee did. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McRee did so? - -Mr. BARNHORST. And he told me those are the only cards that have Mr. -Oswald's name on them. - -Mr. JENNER. So, they were selected from the ledger cards for October -1963, those which had some entry thereon with respect to Oswald? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. It was done by the receipt numbers, also. - -Mr. JENNER. It was doublechecked, so that there appears a--on the third -line of the 1962, card commencing with October 15th, an entry under -date of October 15th, reciting item No. 18198 and the name, "Oswald," -and $2.25 and under the column, "balance," there is a strike line, -and--indicating nothing due. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Pardon me, that balance is not used for the purpose of -something due. We substitute for that a membership fee. That strike -line means he did not have a membership fee. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a similar entry for the 16th, the 17th, and -the 18th. These records then are for the recording of the fact that -Oswald was a guest on those days, and that he paid the amounts of -money recorded on the ledger sheets, which in turn correspond with the -receipts which Mr. Hulen brought in? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The third of these ledger sheets--the first entry is -opposite a date in 1963--October 2, 1963. I take it this ledger sheet -was selected from among all of the ledger sheets for the month of -October 1963, because it records the name Oswald on October 3, 1963, -item No. 15593, $2.25--is that correct? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I have seen all of the ledger sheets for October -1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is the only one that has any entry on it with -respect to Oswald? - -Mr. BARNHORST. That's the only one. - -Mr. JENNER. And that one entry that does have, corresponds with the -receipt on that date, produced by Mr. Hulen? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. May we have these photostated and then returned to you or -did you make photostats? - -Mr. BARNHORST. We do not keep this for any great length of time. Mr. -McRee said we might turn this over to you. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. - -Mr. BARNHORST. As with all of the records. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we will retain them. Do you have other papers? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; these are the daily report sheets you requested. -This is October 1963. These are for the specific dates at the top. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has now produced and handed me---- - -Mr. BARNHORST. You see, the carbon was in the thing backwards when it -was typed, so, they didn't do it over on the third copy, they just -stapled a sheet behind it and attached it to the copies you read it -through from the top because an error was made in putting it in the -typewriter. - -Mr. JENNER. The front of each of these two sheets, for the purpose of -identification in the record consist of two sheets stapled together -back to back and in the typing the sheet was reversed and must be read -from back to front. The first, or facing sheet, is marked Hulen Exhibit -No. 12, and it is entitled "Resident's Hall Report, Thursday, October -3, 1963." The left-hand column is headed "Permanent-in." The right-hand -column is headed, "Transients-out continued." This records, as I look -at it here, the registrations in and out on October 3, 1963, is that -correct? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; approximately. It may include one or two who came -in just the night before or who checked out, or men who would have been -there and checked out the following day--would be on the next day's -report. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry on this sheet with respect to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, room 601, on the "Transients-out," and I -believe on the "Transients-in," I'm not sure. On this one it is the -"Transients-in," room 601. He isn't on this sheet on "Transients-out." -I don't recall it. - -Mr. JENNER. Room 601--and he is shown checked in by Mr. Barker? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And from your knowledge of the hours Mr. Barker worked, -that check-in was either late in the day or early in the evening of -October 3? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The second set of papers you have produced consists of -three sheets, each entitled, "Resident's Hall Report." They are dated -at the top right-hand column as October 4, 1963, October 15, 1962, and -October 19, 1962. They are marked respectively, Hulen Exhibits Nos. 13, -14, and 15. - -Mr. BARNHORST. Hulen Exhibit No. 13 is for the day following October 3, -1963. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the same report for the following day, and is -there an entry on this that relates to Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; "Transients-out, Room 601." - -Mr. JENNER. Under "Transients-out," Room 601, appears the name "Lee H. -Oswald." Then, at the end of the line there there is a word that is -apparently a name (spelling) E-v-a---- - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is that? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Mrs. Eva Marshall. - -Mr. JENNER. What does she do? - -Mr. BARNHORST. She is the day clerk. She was probably substituting at -the time for the clerk who quit. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, and this indicates then that he checked out on -the 3d of October and that the lady you have identified handled that -checkout? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the fact that she did it would indicate to you what, as -to the time of day he checked out? - -Mr. BARNHORST. It would probably be morning, but it also could be early -afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibits 14 and 15 cover the period October 15-19, 1963? - -Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer the exhibits. - -I think that's all we have with respect to you. You overheard what I -said to Mr. Hulen with regard to reading the deposition. That applies -to you as well. If you will check with Mr. Sanders, this ought to be -ready next week. It is rather late in the week to have it ready. You -may sign the deposition if you wish or you may waive that. If there are -any errors in it, we would like to know. Thank you very much. - -Mr. BARNHORST. OK. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. ARTHUR CARL (GLADYS J.) JOHNSON - -The testimony of Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson was taken at 3:40 -p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post -Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph -A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, and sit down. My name is Joe -Ball and Mrs. Johnson, I think we will start with you. Will you stand -up, Mrs. Johnson, please, and hold up your right hand? - -[Complying.] - -Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I certainly do; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Johnson, my name is Joe Ball and I am a staff counsel -for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy. You have received a letter from us, did you not? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Asking you to appear today and you are appearing voluntarily? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You will be asked questions concerning certain facts of -which you have knowledge that have to do with our investigation of the -assassination of the President, and particularly your knowledge of Lee -Harvey Oswald and his place of residence and various things that you -might know concerning Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you lived there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. 21 years. - -Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Arthur Carl Johnson. - -Mr. BALL. First of all, before I ask you any more questions, can you -tell me something about your background, where you were born, where you -went to school? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long you've been married and everything. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I was born in 1902 in Cherokee County at Alto and I was -married to my first husband in 1920 and he is deceased. I had two -children by him and he is deceased and I have been married to this Mr. -Johnson will be 18 years in August. - -Mr. BALL. You are a housewife by occupation? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, I have a restaurant. I have a little restaurant of my -own for 28 years, 1029 Young Street, Johnson's Cafe. - -Mr. BALL. You still operate it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I still do. - -Mr. BALL. You said you had lived at this place, 1026---- - -Mrs. JOHNSON. About 21 years. - -Mr. BALL. North Beckley? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mrs. BALL. You and your husband own that property? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I do; I owned it before I married. I don't own it. I am -paying for it but I had bought the property before I married Johnson. - -Mr. BALL. What size house is that, how many rooms? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it has about 20-odd--22 rooms. - -Mr. BALL. 22 rooms? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. In October, last October, November, 1963, who lived there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. October? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, October and November last year; you and your husband -lived there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; my husband and I; that's our home. - -Mr. BALL. Anyone else live there with you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I had a housekeeper. - -Mr. BALL. What is her name? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Earlene Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. Anyone else live there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That's all except tenants. - -Mr. BALL. Then you rented out rooms? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I rent out bedrooms, don't give board, just bedroom -and living room privileges. - -Mr. BALL. How many tenants did you have in October last year? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. You know, I'm sorry I didn't bring my register. I -couldn't tell you exactly; I imagine I had about 10 or 12. - -Mr. BALL. Was it full? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I don't--I most always have vacancies. - -Mr. BALL. You do? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I have had more even since this happened. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, you have? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I have; people are funny about things like that, you -know. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a -renter, that's all. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first met him, at what place? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. At my home--I was between serving hours and I come home -for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the -house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon -and he seen the room for rent sign--the first time that he came by, I -happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, -I will have them full and then they just go vacant; people just come in -and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't -have a room. - -Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes: that's something about 3 weeks before he came back. - -Mr. BALL. This was 1026 North Beckley? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. He talked to you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; the first time and the last time; the first time, he -told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I just rented -the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his -work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was -sorry he missed it. I said, "You noticed the sign." I hadn't had time -to take the sign up and I told him, "I will take the sign up and if you -notice the sign up again, you might stop by and I will have a room" -and sure enough, he came by this second time and so this tiny, little -room--it was at one time my library; that's what it was built for, -and he came by and I said I only have this small room at the present -time. I run an ad, it seems like, at that time, and I said I only have -the small room and he looked at it and said, "I will take this room -with the understanding I can have a larger room at the time you have -one go vacant" and I said to him that's agreeable, so, at the time, I -had other vacancies which in just 2 or 3 days I had two or three more -accommodations go vacant, so I told him I had other accommodations that -are larger and he said, "I find this room to be light and comfortable." -It was four windows on the outside wall; it was all light. He said, "I -find it to be light and comfortable and worth the money, if you don't -mind, I will remain in this room," so he didn't even look at the other -rooms. He just remained in that room, what I call my library. When I -utilized it into a bedroom, my father-in-law lived with a family of -people on a farm and they went to Arkansas to live and he was getting -old and he didn't want to be that far away from his son, so he wanted -to come and make his home with us and I fixed this little library -room--it was off and private from the other roomers--for "Pappy" to -sleep in and the living room for him to sit in and he was--that's about -9 years before he was deceased. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the date Oswald rented the room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. October 14. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did he come by? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. It was between 4 and 5 o'clock, I do know that because I -was home that day when he came back by and I said, when he came by, I -said, "You did come back by." - -Mr. BALL. Was your sign out at that time? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; it was; he seen the sign. - -Mr. BALL. How much did you charge him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. $8 a week, refrigerator and living room privileges. - -Mr. BALL. The refrigerator was located where? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. In my kitchen--he wanted to know if he could put milk and -lunch meat in my refrigerator and I told him he could. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what his name was? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. O. H. L-e-e [spelling]. - -Mr. BALL. Did he sign anything with that name? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I have it in my purse. - -Mr. BALL. May I see it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I will be glad to--I don't want you to keep it. I want -you to--I brought it for your information. I knew you was going to ask -that. - -Mr. BALL. Now, is this in his handwriting? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. This "O. H. Lee" is in his handwriting and this other is -in the housekeeper's handwriting--Mrs. Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. And these are the rates you gave him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I would like this marked as an exhibit to this deposition. -Mark this Exhibit A. - -[Exhibit so marked.] - -Mr. BALL. Could we make a copy of this and return this to you, Mrs. -Johnson? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I have been told that I could sell this and I -haven't gotten any money. I think about $30 is what I have received, -all the trouble and all I've had and I've had to take the rugs up once -or twice. People like to have driven us crazy before we asked for any -information what to do. I hated to be rude to people. I didn't know -what to do but they got so---- - -Mr. BALL. We will make a picture of this and give it back to you. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. May I have something to erase this November 13, 15--I -got that wrong, anyway. I was looking at the calendar and this, I -was thinking it was November 13 that he left--he left my place on a -Wednesday before this assassination on Friday. - -Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah; the last time I saw him was on a Wednesday -but my housekeeper seen him on a Friday morning right after this -assassination, he came by the house hurriedly. - -Mr. BALL. Were you at home at the time? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I wasn't. I was at my restaurant, so I got this -copied wrong. It was November 20; the assassination was on the 22d and -he left my house on the 20th and then didn't return until right after -this assassination. - -Mr. BALL. By this, you mean the last time you saw him was Wednesday, -the 20th? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He did not come home on Thursday night? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. He did not; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The 21st? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Friday, the 22d, you did not see him, either? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I didn't. The housekeeper did. - -Mr. BALL. We will make a copy of this and give the original back to -you and we will mark this "A." Did he sign that "O. H. Lee" in your -presence? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On that day? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; the day he rented the room, they sign the -register--they sign the register before I accept any money. - -Mr. BALL. I'm talking about this "O. H. Lee" signature on this -document; he signed that on that date? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you the money? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. $8? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know his true name was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; not until we saw his picture flash on the television -as the officers were out. Those particulars was found in his pocket -after he killed Tippit, after his arrest. So I came from the -restaurant, I guess 1 or 1:30, and these officers were there 1:30 or 2, -something like that, anyway, it was after this assassination, and as I -drove in, well, the officers were there and they told me that they was -looking for this character and I told them I didn't think I had anyone -by that name there but we went through the register carefully two or -three times and there was no Oswald there and I had two new tenants, -rather new tenants, so we had carried them around the house to show -them and we was going to start in the new tenants' rooms and my husband -was sitting in the living room and seen this picture flash on the -television and he said, "Please go around that house and tell him it -was this guy that lived in this room here"; and it was O. H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. That is the first time you learned his name was Oswald? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You knew him as O. H. Lee? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I knew him as O. H. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. The first time you knew the man to be Lee Harvey Oswald that -you had known as O. H. Lee? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when Oswald brought his clothes into the room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; what do you mean? - -Mr. BALL. Now, you rented the room to him on the 14th? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he move in on that same day? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and he had his clothes with him. - -Mr. BALL. He had his clothes with him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he just had a little old bag of clothes, these -little bags you get when you are in the service. - -Mr. BALL. A duffelbag? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That's all he had? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That's all he had. - -Mr. BALL. He was there only--you say he rented it on the 14th of -October? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. He rented the 14th of October. - -Mr. BALL. Then he paid his rent every week until when? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Every week, every week, I tell you, when he rented the -room, he told me that he was--I told him the rules of the house before -I accepted any renter I rent to, I tell them the rules of the house. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That we definitely do not entertain in bedrooms, strictly -the living room, and, too, they cannot come in intoxicated. If they -drink, they must sober before they come in and I do not allow drinking -at the home. That's the rules of the house and he accepted it. - -Mr. BALL. He was there a little better than a month? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Five or six weeks? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he was. - -Mr. BALL. Did he eat any of his meals there at the home? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. He had sandwiches and had milk. He drank about a half -gallon of sweet milk a day. He kept a half gallon of sweet milk in my -refrigerator a day and he kept lunch meat. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Jelly and preserves, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did he eat in the evening after work? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he did, most every afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. He ate where, in his room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Sometimes take it in his room, but he was just spotless -with it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he eat in the kitchen with it sometimes? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Occasionally, if there was no one in the kitchen, he -would sit in the kitchen, but if there was anyone in there, he would -take it in his room and every bit of that was put in the trash can. He -never kept anything cluttered, never kept anything outside, no papers, -books, or nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him eat anything but lunch meat? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I never did, just lunch meat, all he ever put in there -and preserves, I think he had some preserves and milk; but he put about -a half gallon of sweet milk in that box each day. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating his evening meal? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I don't think I had seen him but I have seen him -come in and get the lunch meat and carry it into his room. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go out nights, any? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I just really never did see that man leave that room. - -Mr. BALL. After he came back from work? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he stayed very closely but he did tell me he would -be leaving to go home over weekends--no; he didn't say "home," he said, -"I will leave to go to Irving over weekends and won't return until -Monday." - -Mr. BALL. Was he gone almost every weekend? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Every weekend but one and that was the weekend previous -to the assassination. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do that weekend? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I actually didn't see him leave the house but I -know he did because I heard some of the renters say they seen him leave -and I also heard--remember something that he went to the rifle range--I -read he was at the rifle range. - -Mr. BALL. You say you did not see him leave. Were you there over the -weekend? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I surely was. - -Mr. BALL. But you did not see him leave? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. You say you heard some people say that; who said that? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I have read. - -Mr. BALL. Don't tell me what you read. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I actually read it in the newspaper; I just don't -remember. - -Mr. BALL. Is there anybody that you know of at your house that you say -saw Oswald leave the house the weekend before the assassination? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I'm trying to think. I just don't believe that I remember -anyone who said definitely that they seen him leave. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that lived in your house there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. They could come in and out that door and we never would -notice it because the house is large and we stayed a lot in the back of -the house. - -Mr. BALL. You mentioned rifle range. Where did you get information that -Oswald went to a rifle range? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I read it in the paper. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody in your house tell you he went to a rifle range? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him go to a rifle range? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he went to a rifle range? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; that man never talked; that was the only -peculiarity about him. He would never speak. If we would speak to him -and some of the men renters he would speak to the housekeeper and I -everytime we would speak and we would speak to him just most every time -we would meet him and, of course, he would speak after we would speak, -but he would come in and watch television maybe 30, 40 minutes at a -time and never speak to a man. - -Mr. BALL. He would watch television sometimes? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; watch television with the other men renters -and he wouldn't speak to them. Maybe they would speak to him but he -wouldn't speak. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him with a rifle? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Never did; and he never brought that rifle in my house; -I just know he never had that rifle in there. He could have had this -pistol, I don't know, because they found the scabbard. - -Mr. BALL. The pistol holster is what they found? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Pistol holster is what I'm trying to say. - -Mr. BALL. They found that after the assassination? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes sir; I seen the holster. - -Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen it before? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; he kept that packed away. We never go through -people's personal things. I instruct my housekeeper never go through -people's personal things. We are not in a position to do that and it's -rude and we do not. - -Mr. BALL. How is this room furnished that Oswald rented? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. A very small room; it had an old fashioned clothes -closet that had a place to hang your clothes and drawer space for your -underwear, your socks and everything, and then it also had a cabinet -space anyone could have stored food or, well I mean bundles of things, -you know, and then I had a dresser and a bed and a heater and a little -refrigerated unit. - -Mr. BALL. A refrigerating unit? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; a window unit. - -Mr. BALL. You mean it cooled the room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of curtains did it have? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it just had side drapes and panels. - -Mr. BALL. Were the curtains on curtain rods? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They were in the room when he rented it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; never mentioned it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his -room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he was going to get some curtain rods? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. The room had curtain rods on the window when he came in there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; sure did. - -Mr. BALL. Also curtains? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there one weekend when he was gone in which he didn't -return on Monday but he came back the next day, on Tuesday? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; there was one and it must have been on Labor--no---- - -Mr. BALL. Armistice Day? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Armistice Day; it was on Monday, was it not? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That was Monday he wasn't home. He didn't come home until -Tuesday; that's the first time and only time he failed to pay his rent -when it was due. It was due on Monday. - -Mr. BALL. When did he pay it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I would say the next 5 minutes after he walked into the -house from work. - -Mr. BALL. What time did he come home from work on Tuesday? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Something like 5 o'clock, 4:30 or 5--5, I think. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he had been? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, no; he didn't tell us anything; no; we didn't ask. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in the next weekend, that would be the weekend before -the assassination, he stayed there? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. He remained there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you or did you not see him go out any that weekend? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I did not see him go out; I did not; no, sir. - -(At this point Mr. Johnson left the room.) - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: did he, that weekend, that was the -weekend before the assassination, on a Saturday, make a trip to a place -where they wash clothes? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I think that he did go across to that washateria. I -think he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him go any place, go out of the house except for -that on that weekend? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That's the only time and I had just forgotten that but I -do remember he carried some clothes out of that house that morning and -the washateria is right across the street, less than a block. - -Mr. BALL. But he left his room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. And he wasn't gone long and I didn't see him return with -any clothes but I do know he was gone just about long enough to do a -wash. - -Mr. BALL. Did he watch television every evening? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Not every evening but just every time he took a notion -but maybe 95 percent of the time he would sit in his room. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have any visitors? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; he never had a visitor. - -Mr. BALL. Do you ever remember him spending an evening away from home -except for these times you told us about? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Not an evening that I remember him being away but other -than weekends he would. He would leave on Friday mornings and return -Monday evenings. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you when he rented your room where he was working? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he didn't, but he did tell me he would be returning -to Irving each weekend. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he was working? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you what his job was? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he told me he was anxious to rent the room being on -the busline and near his work and he didn't have a car and he would be -returning to Irving. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him in the company of anyone? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Never did see him in the company of nobody. - -Mr. BALL. Did he drink? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; no more than sweet milk. - -Mr. BALL. He never drink intoxicating liquor? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I don't believe he drank. - -Mr. BALL. You never saw him drink anything? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You never saw him intoxicated? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he smoke? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I don't believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. Miss Earlene Roberts was your housekeeper at this time? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you known her? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I have known Mrs. Roberts, oh, I guess it was 6 years, -something like that, 6 years. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you first meet her? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I hired her as a housekeeper. - -Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I -would hire her back. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you let her go? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with -renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an -overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to -understand to tolerate. - -Mr. BALL. What are they? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking, just sitting down and making up tales, you know, -have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's -nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes -a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to -go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because -you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as -intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but -she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I -don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't -know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did. - -Mr. BALL. She was working for you in October and November while Oswald -was a renter with you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was. This Saturday night will be 3 weeks she -left. - -Mr. BALL. She quit 3 weeks ago? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I didn't know she was going. - -Mr. BALL. Where did she go? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I do not know. I called her sister to try to find out. I -don't think she knows. - -Mr. BALL. Who is her sister? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Mrs. Bertha Cheek. - -Mr. BALL. She lives here in Dallas? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; on Swiss. I think. - -Mr. BALL. Have you talked to her within the last few days? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. A number of times I talked to her, trying to find -Earlene. I thought it was important we did come to this Commission -and I wanted to ask Earlene just why she did leave because I didn't -know there was a thing in the world wrong. Well, I carried her to -Pleasant Grove to a doctor and spent a half day that I should have been -even with my brother that had had a heart attack, been assisting my -sister-in-law and her chores that day. - -Mr. BALL. When was this? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Three weeks ago Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. That's the day you took her to the doctor? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I took her every 2 weeks just as regular. - -Mr. BALL. She quit that day? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. That night, and everything was just as agreeable; I went -and shopped for vegetables and her special meats for her diet. She -is a diabetic, too, while she was in the doctor's office, and I had -everything for another week for her diet. - -Mr. BALL. Did she come to you and tell you she was going to quit? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; she never mentioned such a thing. I thought -everything was just agreeable. - -Mr. BALL. What did she do, move out? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. After midnight, after everyone was in bed. - -Mr. BALL. She didn't tell you she was going? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. She didn't tell me she was going. - -Mr. BALL. You haven't see her since? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I haven't seen her since. - -Mr. BALL. Did a letter come to your house to Earlene Roberts from the -Commission? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I held it until the last minute and returned it to you. - -Mr. BALL. Your letter and your husband's letter came to the house? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You called Mrs. Cheek? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. To find out where Earlene was? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did she tell you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. She told me she had called her and told her she had left -my house and she said, "I just proceeded to tell her what I thought -about it because you are so good and so nice to her. She should never -have quit you like that." She said, "You know how she is, she hasn't -called back. She might swell up and pout and it will be months before -she calls me again." - -Mr. BALL. Do you know any reason why she should have left you? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Mrs. Cheek, the sister, says when she was talking to -her she brought up a little old lady that does room with me and she -is a retired woman who is drawing her social security and she was a -housekeeper previous to this last time Mrs. Roberts was there--Katy -Gage, a precious woman, gets along with everybody. She's got children -but doesn't want to live with them. She prefers living with my husband -and I, renting a room and lives with us. She tells--and Mrs. Cheek says -first thing she brought up was Katy. She says she's jealous of Katy and -I don't know why she is. There is no reason to be. - -Mr. BALL. Did Earlene Roberts ever talk to Oswald in your presence; did -you ever see them talk to each other? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Listen here, no; I don't believe that Lee talked to -anybody. I just really don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did Earlene ever talk to you about Oswald? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. Say she thought he was a peculiar one? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BALL. She never mentioned him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; she just didn't like him because he wouldn't speak -but that's all. - -Mr. BALL. She told you she did not like him? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah, she would say "I would like to know if he thinks he -is too good to speak to me when he comes through the kitchen." I said, -"If you speak to him, he will speak," I said, "I will speak to him" and -he says, "Good morning" but he didn't speak if I didn't speak. - -Mr. BALL. On the day of the 22d of November, were you home around 1 -o'clock? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. It must have been 1:30 or 2, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. When you came home? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; after serving lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Did Earlene Roberts say anything to you whether or not this -man had returned? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. No; after these officers came in, well, then she began -to tell them that he did come rushing in and she had gotten a phone -call or had made one, anyway, she was on the phone--no, there was -someone called her, that's what she said, said someone called her and -she says, "Did you know that the President had been assassinated" and -she says, "Why, no" and she says, "Well, it's on the television now" -and she says, "I will run and turn it on" and she run in and turned -this television on to get this information and this Oswald walked in -hurriedly and she said, she said to him, "You seem to be in a hurry." -She was the only one in that place. She said he didn't say a word but -went on in his room and she said he changed his little zip-up coat, way -I understand it, and just went right back out. He evidently got the -gun; now, we don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did she tell the officers that? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah, she told the officers that. - -Mr. BALL. When they came out there, did they have a search warrant? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, surely. - -Mr. BALL. Did you permit them to search his room? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; they taken everything immediately out of his room. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look in the room while they were searching it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I certainly did. It had French doors to it; folding open, -you couldn't help but see everything, the books and all they took out -of these chests of drawers. They was throwin' them down on the bed. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a pistol holster? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Where was it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I don't know; they took it out of one of the drawers of -this chest. - -Mr. BALL. It was in a drawer? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Now, you can look this over and sign -it, if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will have it -written up and send it on to Washington. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. How is this? - -Mr. BALL. If you wish, we will have this written up and you can read it -over and sign it or you can waive signature, if you wish, and you won't -need to read it over and sign it. What do you prefer? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I would think that you people--of course, the way I -worded it, it probably sounds terrible. - -Mr. BALL. I thought it sounded very good. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I put it just as straight as I could because we did know -such a little about this man but you know I have rented rooms a long -time and I find people, around boys, especially, about this age, some -of them are shy. They don't prefer a lot of yakking and you will get -to where, actually, you appreciate a person that goes in his room and -takes care of his own business rather than sit around and quiz and ask -personal questions and wants to change from one television program to -another. You get tired of that. - -Mr. BALL. Are you satisfied to waive your signature, Mrs. Johnson? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. Why, yes. - -Mr. BALL. And leave it just as you said it? - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I have said the truth, nothing but the truth. - -Mr. BALL. Then, you won't have to sign it. We will send it on to the -Commission this way. - -Mrs. JOHNSON. I have told you the truth. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF A. C. JOHNSON - -The testimony of A. C. Johnson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David S. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BELIN. Will you stand up and raise your right hand, Mr. Johnson? - -Do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole -truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. Please be seated, sir. Your name is A. C. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. A. C. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. 1026 North Beckley. - -Mr. BELIN. That's here in Dallas? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I've lived there 17 years, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what's your occupation? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Carpenter. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Texas, or did you move here? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, I'm from Kentucky--was born in Kentucky. My folks came -here when I was 5 years old. - -Mr. BELIN. They came here to Texas? - -Mr. JOHNSON. When I was 5 years old. And I've been in and around Dallas -ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes--not in Dallas, but country schools--county schools, -you know. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--just grade school. - -Mr. BELIN. Just grade school. And then did you go to work? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any Army service at all? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Just by general background, has your general occupation been -a carpenter for most of these past 20 or 30 years? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I've been a carpenter for about--uh--well, about 20 -years, I guess. - -Mr. BELIN. Before that, what did you do? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I was raised on a farm. - -Mr. BELIN. And you worked on a farm then? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you and your wife have this house at 1026 North Beckley -and have people that room there by the week? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. About how many people do you have that room there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, when it's full, we have 17. - -Mr. BELIN. Has it been full within the past 6 months at all, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No, no, it hasn't. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, how long have you been married, Mr. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Seventeen years. - -Mr. BELIN. You've been married 17 years? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime last fall, a person came to your house to rent -a room who you knew by the name of O. H. Lee. Is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. When he first came, were you all full at that time or -not--or don't you know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe that--uh--the little room he took was the only -room available at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Had he come any earlier to try and find a room earlier--or -not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--Mrs. Roberts said he had been by once before. - -Mr. BELIN. And was that little room available then, or not--or don't -you remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember exactly. I believe, though, that--uh--I -believe he looked at it and decided he'd wait awhile. But the next time -he came back, why he decided he'd take it. - -My wife told him that--uh--if he wanted to take that room, why he -could, you know, when we had a larger room and more convenient for him, -why he could have it. And so he just--after he got this little room, -why he just decided he'd stay in it. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe that little room for us? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it's just a--a small room. I believe it's about 8 by -12, or something like that. It was a library room. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it have any windows in it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It has--uh--three--four windows, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. On one side, two sides, three sides? - -Mr. JOHNSON. One side. - -Mr. BELIN. They're all on one side? - -Mr. JOHNSON. All on one side. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any curtains on those windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have curtains at that time on the windows? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How were the curtains put up--by curtain rods, or by what? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Curtain rods. Yes. They were just on regular curtain -rods. - -Mr. BELIN. There were already curtain rods in the room, then, when this -O. H. Lee came there--is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, uh-huh. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the curtains at all, that were in there, -if you remember them, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I couldn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Would those curtains still be on there today? Or might you -have different ones now? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; we'd have different curtains now. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he got his room from--from you or from your -wife or from your housekeeper? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Who was your housekeeper, by the way? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Earlene Roberts. - -Mr. BELIN. Is she still there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; she's moved. - -Mr. BELIN. How long had she been a housekeeper for you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, that's something around a year--this past--the last -time, I mean. - -Mr. BELIN. She was a housekeeper for you prior to that time? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; about a year or a little better. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how old Mrs. Roberts is--approximately? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe she's in her fifties. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you have any objections in stating for the record -approximately how old you are? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I'm 59. - -Mr. BELIN. Fifty-nine. Did Mrs. Roberts say why she was leaving? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; she didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she give you any notice that she was leaving? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; didn't give us any notice. - -Mr. BELIN. She just walked out? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Just walked out. - -Mr. BELIN. When did she walk out? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It was in the night. - -Mr. BELIN. Just the middle of the night? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we don't know what time. All the roomers had already -gone to bed, so we don't know what time it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she have any pay coming from you, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know. My wife always pays her. Now, I couldn't -tell you. I don't remember. I've even forgotten what night she moved. -I think my wife paid her on Wednesday night--or on Wednesdays. But I -couldn't tell you what day she moved. - -Mr. BELIN. The last time she worked for you, when she left did she give -you any notice? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. The last--the last time was the one I had reference to. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean, the first time that she worked for you? Or don't you -remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. In any case, this man, O. H. Lee, came to rent a -room from you or from your wife? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe how you came to find out that this man -had another name other than O. H. Lee? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was when the officers came looking for him. - -Mr. BELIN. When was this? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--after Tippit was shot, the police---- - -Mr. BELIN. This would have been on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And can you state what happened? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they just came down there looking for--uh--Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they say what his full name was? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I believe they did. - -Mr. BELIN. Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe they did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they say how they happened to come there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they -searched him and found my address in his pocket. - -Mr. BELIN. Your address of 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What happened when the officers got there? They -asked you if Lee Harvey Oswald lived there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How long had you been at the house when the officers arrived? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, probably 30 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best -I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get home that day from your work? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little bit after. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you had gotten home, had you heard that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. I heard that before I went home. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that the President had died before you went -home? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. So you got home sometime after you had heard that the -President had died? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard that the President had died? - -Mr. JOHNSON. 1029 Young Street. - -Mr. BELIN. And is that a business? - -Mr. JOHNSON. We have a little restaurant there. - -Mr. BELIN. You and your wife have a restaurant there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was your wife there, too? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we work together. - -Mr. BELIN. And did you hear this on the radio? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for -Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of -course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, -and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told -us that he had heard it over the radio. - -Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. We don't have one there in the place, so we went out -in the car and sat there in the car and listened. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And was it while you were sitting in the car that -you heard that the President had died? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we didn't leave until we--it was announced that he -was dead. - -Mr. BELIN. How soon after that announcement did you leave? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say 5 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, how long did it take you to get to 1026 -North Beckley? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It takes us about 5 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. So that about 10 minutes after you heard on the radio that -the President had been shot, you arrived with your wife at 1026 North -Beckley? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone? Was Mrs. Roberts there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; she was there--at the television. - -Mr. BELIN. She was watching television? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Had this man, O. H. Lee, was he there when you got there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; he had been there just--uh--before we got home. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts tell you that he had? - -Mr. JOHNSON. She told us that he come in and got a--uh--little coat or -something and just walked in his room and right back out the door. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what was the occasion of Mrs. Roberts telling you that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I--just general conversation, I suppose, you know. -Uh--after she found out who it was---- - -Mr. BELIN. Oh, she told you this after she found out that this was Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh-huh; that he did come in and get his coat. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did she tell you this before the police came to your -house? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; because she had no idea. Her sister, I believe it was, -called her and told her to turn the television on, that Kennedy had -been shot. And she was over there working with the television, tuning -it in, when Oswald came in. - -Mr. BELIN. When did she tell you this? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--just after we found out that it was--Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. After you found out that O. H. Lee was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you started to tell me how you found this out. I -believe you said the police came sometime after you got home? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. And I saw his picture on television, you know. As -quick as we found out who he was, why Mrs. Roberts just said something -about that he had come by the house here. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me backtrack a minute, now. - -How soon after you got home did the police come--approximately? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say within 30 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. 30 minutes after you got home, the police came. -And what did the police say to you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. They asked if--uh--we had anyone by that name living there. - -Mr. BELIN. By the name of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And what did you tell them? - -Mr. JOHNSON. We told them, "No." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what did they say? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the rooms. They had described his -age, his build, and so forth, and we had two more boys rooming there. -Uh--and my wife was going to let them see the rooms. - -Mr. BELIN. Your wife was going to let them see the rooms that you -had--and you had a total of 17 roomers, I believe you said? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, no. I don't know just how many roomers we had. We -have 17 bedrooms--but I don't know just, at that time, how many roomers -we had. - -But, anyway, we had a couple of boys around his age that had moved in -just a few days before, and, so, she was going to let them see their -rooms. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I saw his picture on television and I hollered at -them and told them. They were out in the back, started around the house -to the--uh--basement where these boys room. The bedrooms are all in the -basement. And they were going back there. - -And--uh--I just called them and told them, I said, "Why, it's this -fellow that lives in here." - -Mr. BELIN. You told them that you had seen the picture of this man on -television? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And did you tell them what this man was known to you as? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did they say? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the records, and we showed -them--the register, I mean--and we showed them the register. - -And then they searched his room. - -Mr. BELIN. You showed them the register with this name of O. H. Lee? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. When was it, after that, that Mrs. Roberts said that he had -been there that day? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It was along about--during the conversation with -these--uh--men. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she see his picture on television at the same time you -did? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about him being O. H. Lee--or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--yes. We all--uh--were just discussing it, you -know. And she told him--I believe she did--or my wife did. Said, -"Well, that's the reason we didn't understand who they were looking -for--because we didn't know him as Oswald." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Who recognized his face on television first? You -or Mrs. Roberts? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe I was the one--best I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Roberts looking at television at the same time you -were then, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were all talking--talking, like I say, to the -officers and so forth. And--uh--I believe though that she was looking -at it at the same time I was. My wife had just stepped out of the house -with the officers. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, what did Mrs. Roberts say about this man having been at -the home earlier that day--this O. H. Lee, which they had identified as -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. She just--uh--I believe she told them that he came in -and got a little--uh--sport coat, or some sort of a little coat, and -slipped it on and went right back out. And she said that she made the -remark that he--said, "You must be in a hurry"--and he didn't say -anything; went on out the door. - -And the next thing we knew or heard of him was after Tippit was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else she said about Lee Harvey -Oswald's visit to your home? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. That's just about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe Lee Harvey Oswald at all? What kind of a -person was he? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he was nice enough, I'd say, as a roomer because -he always kept his room nice and he was very well-behaved. He -didn't--uh--talk to anyone. He might speak to you when he came in and -he might not. I suppose it was according to the mood he was in, or -something, I never did think too much about it--because--uh--we have so -many roomers anyway that I don't pay too much attention. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he drink at all? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of. I don't--if he ever did drink a bottle -of beer, I never did know it; never did smell it, or anything. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he smoke cigarettes--do you know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was right-handed or left-handed? - -Mr. JOHNSON. [Pausing before reply] No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he stay out late at night or was he generally home -relatively early in the evening? - -Mr. JOHNSON. He was home--uh--usually right after work and just--uh--I -suppose he'd go out and eat or maybe to the washateria or somewhere -like that. If he was ever gone any other than this--the night before -the assassination, I didn't know it. It was after we had already gone -to bed, if he did leave. - -Mr. BELIN. What time did he leave for work in the morning, do you know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, around 7:30, something like that. Now, I -wouldn't be sure because we leave out real early and I was never there. -But I--I think that they said--Mrs. Roberts, I believe, or some of -them--said he left around 7:30. Now, I wouldn't say for sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he took his lunch to work with -him? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there a bus that goes by or near your house that goes -near to where he worked? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The bus comes right by the house. - -Mr. BELIN. What bus is that? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The Beckley bus. - -Mr. BELIN. The Beckley bus? Does it stop right in front of your house? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It stops right--uh--well, my house is the third house from -the corner, and it stops right on the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. And does that go right to or near Elm and Houston? - -Mr. JOHNSON. It goes right by there. - -Mr. BELIN. And can you pick up a bus near Elm and Houston to get right -back to your house? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I believe it goes right back down--uh--Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald generally stay at your home on -weekends? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where he went? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--no; I don't. I just assumed he went home. - -Mr. BELIN. By "home," you mean to---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. Irving. I believe that's where his wife lived. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever talk to you about his wife or family? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; never did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear him make any telephone calls to his wife, -or to someone? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, he'd make calls but I never did know who he was -calling. Because, like I say, he'd talk in a foreign language all the -time. - -Mr. BELIN. Were these toll calls, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; so far as I know, he never put in a toll call. - -Mr. BELIN. When you call Irving, Tex., is this a toll call, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; it's the same exchange. - -Mr. BELIN. You said that you heard him talk in a foreign language. -About how often would he make these calls? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Most every evening after work. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that he generally wasn't there on -weekends. Is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there some weekends when he might be there--or don't -you remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any week nights when he wasn't there? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--so far as I know, the night before the assassination, -the night of the twenty--that would be the 21st. - -Mr. BELIN. Twenty-first of November? - -Mr. JOHNSON. The night before the assassination. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Was there any other week night, apart from November 21, that he wasn't -there--to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you before November 21 that he wasn't -going to be there that night? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. He paid for the room by the week, didn't he? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How much was his room rent? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, $8 a week. - -Mr. BELIN. Were your larger rooms more expensive? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When a larger room became available was this ever told to -him, or not? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I believe my wife told him but--uh--but he just--said he'd -just as soon stay on in that small room, that it was handy and that -he'd just stay on. - -Mr. BELIN. When a person stayed by the week, did he pay his rent in -advance? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What day of the week would his rent be due? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don't know what day his--Oswald's--was due. They -pay--if they move in on a Monday, they pay it--the rent is due on -Monday. - -Mr. BELIN. From one Monday to the following Monday, is that right? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this one night that he wasn't there. -Were there any telephone calls for him on November 21? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say why he was going home? Did you ever know -ahead of time that he was going to Irving that night? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him after the morning of November 21? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might be -relevant or important? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I can't think of anything else because, like I say, I -didn't really know the man. - -Mr. BELIN. Is Johnny's Cafe the one that you say you and your wife -operate? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Johnson's Cafe. - -Mr. BELIN. Johnson's Cafe? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; 1029 Young Street. - -Mr. BELIN. You own that? I mean, you operate it yourself as proprietor? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You're kind of a real businessman here. You rent a -roominghouse, and you have a cafe, and you have carpenters. Anything -else, Mr. Johnson? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I have an apartment house and a little rental -property. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about the assassination or about Lee -Harvey Oswald, or anything or anyone connected with Oswald or the -assassination that you might think would be of help? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; no. I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Since November 22, 1963, have you ever talked to your wife -or Mrs. Roberts about Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. You know, we've discussed the thing--and--uh--I -suppose you'd say that we're just more or less in shock or something, -knowing that he lived there and that a thing like that happened. It's -just--and all the publicity of the thing, and so forth. - -Mr. BELIN. Has Mrs. Roberts said anything further about her -observations of Lee Harvey Oswald to you? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where we can locate her at all to talk to her? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. BELIN. You got a letter, by the way, saying that we would be here -to take the deposition? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts leave before she got that letter or after? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Why she left before. She's been gone for--I guess--3 -weeks, or maybe 4. - -Mr. BELIN. Before we start taking your deposition, you and I chatted -briefly for a few minutes about your roominghouse, is that correct? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that we talked about that -we don't have recorded here on this deposition? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me all you knew -about it, or did I try and lead you to say anything that wasn't true in -any way? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You just told me---- - -Mr. JOHNSON. I told you just what little I know about it. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of now? - -Mr. JOHNSON. That's about all I know about the man. - -Mr. BELIN. One other question; I might ask you if you've ever seen the -shirt--Exhibit 150? Did you ever see Oswald wearing this, or don't you -remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember. He did wear sports clothes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the clothes he was wearing? - -Mr. JOHNSON. No; because I didn't see him that day. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't see him that day. Well, on any day--for instance, -here's another exhibit here--kind of a dark blue jacket--Exhibit 163. -Have you ever seen Oswald wearing Exhibit No. 163? - -Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly thank you, Mr. Johnson, for all of your -cooperation. I know this has been time consuming on your part here. - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we've always tried to cooperate because, you know -they've brought so much publicity down on us there and we've kinda felt -bad about it. So we've just thought the thing out and thought that it -could happen to anybody that deals with the public, you know--rents -rooms or anything. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way--I don't know if I asked you. You can sign the -deposition or you can waive the signing of it and just have the court -reporter record it as she has it recorded here. - -Do you want to sign it or do you just want to waive the signing of it? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it doesn't make any difference because it's---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if it doesn't make any difference to you, will you -just then waive the signing of it and save your coming down the second -time here? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want you to know that we appreciate the fact that -you've had people in and out of your house and everything else. - -Mr. JOHNSON. We're glad to help in any way we can, you know. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, I might ask you one question that we forgot. -When the police first came on November 22, did they have a search -warrant at all or not? Or don't you remember? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--they didn't have one at the time, but they called and -got one before they went into his room. - -Mr. BELIN. They called and got a search warrant before they went in his -room? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. They called over my phone. - -Mr. BELIN. Over your phone? You heard them call? - -Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I believe that's all. Thank you very much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CLIFTON M. SHASTEEN - -The testimony of Clifton M. Shasteen was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and take the oath, please? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you swear in your testimony to tell the whole truth and -nothing but the truth? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I do. Now, I want to tell you before I start--there is -some question--I just have to go back from memory. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all right. All we mean when we say "the truth" is -just to the best of your ability. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. When I ever talked to him, I never dreamed I would ever -see him again--you see? - -Mr. JENNER. Sure. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General -Counsel of the Commission? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; the chief of police came out yesterday afternoon. -He's a good friend of mine, and he came out yesterday evening and had -me to call---- - -Mr. JENNER. The Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission, which is a Commission appointed -by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the assassination of -President John F. Kennedy and all of the circumstances surrounding that -tragic event. - -The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and -President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission -and fixing its scope of operation and its power. Under the regulations -of the Commission, the members of the staff are authorized to take -depositions and swear witnesses. - -We understand from various sources, FBI reports--that you may possibly -have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald in which the -Commission is interested and there might be some other information on -which we are not immediately advised that may come to your mind. - -Mr. JENNER. As I understand it, your full name is Clifford---- - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Clifton [spelling] C-l-i-f-t-o-n. - -Mr. JENNER. M is your initial? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Shasteen. S-h-a-s-t-e-e-n. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You live at 2214 Fairfax in Irving, Tex. As I understand -it, you are the owner and operator of Clifton's Barbershop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At 1321 South Storey in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a native of Dallas, are you? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I've been here about 20 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's good enough and you are married and have a -family and live in Irving, Tex., as indicated? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that in the course of your looking at -television on the 22d of November 1963, there occurred to you upon -seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered -some tonsorial services to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you just as near as I can remember that -day--what happened is the TV shop next to me, in other words, about two -doors down---- - -Mr. JENNER. Next to your business? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I heard it over the radio and went to the house at -noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing, -but there wasn't anything definite, so I went back to the shop and as I -went back to the shop this fellow in the TV shop said, "Why don't you -come in and get a TV set and set it up in your shop in there and watch -it?" So, I went in and got a TV set and the name didn't mean anything -to me when they first mentioned the name. - -Mr. JENNER. The name Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. It didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening -when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over -here--the first I remember seeing him to recognize that I had saw the -face before was about--over there around 5 o'clock, when I saw him over -at the jail or something and I seen him when they come out there and -when he looked toward the cameras. - -I didn't say anything to anybody. I had before told them, you know, -what I said was just a gag--I said, "You can't tell. That guy might -live here in Irving." You know how guys pop off or something, but I -didn't know a thing about it. I was just going on, but anyhow, when -that come on there, there was several in the shop and so I decided when -I saw his picture--I remembered him coming in the shop and I just knew -that. It finally dawned on me where I had saw him. I knew where he -lived. Actually, I knew where the station wagon was that was parked, -that I saw him and this lady in, so I just took out of the shop and -told the boy, I said, "I'm going to run to the house and I'll be back -in a minute." - -So, I drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within -4 blocks of that house, and knew then I was not mistaken, that that -was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when I came back to the -shop--when I got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me up -there and said they saw Cliff up there and everybody in that community -knows me. When we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about -it. All three of the barbers in there have cut his hair, but I cut it -more, I guess, than the rest of them did. I think the boy on the front -chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of -times, but I think I cut his hair three or four times. I don't know -just exactly because since then--I have backed up and looked at it and -tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just -the way it was--when he would come in, he was always disgruntled, and -the only time I ever saw him smile--he had on a pair of yellow house -shoes and I never saw any like them before. - -Mr. JENNER. Sneakers? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were -just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and I admired them -and I said, "Them looks expensive," and he said, "They are not." - -He said, "I gave a dollar and a half for them." I said, "My goodness, -where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" And -he said, "Down in Old Mexico." - -Mr. JENNER. Down in Old Mexico? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. And I said, "Man, I'd like to have a pair of them because -I have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough -that I could build that shoe up and he said, "Well, I'll get you a -pair the next time I'm down there," and that is the only time he ever -was nice and polite--in the conversation, any time anything would come -up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled. - -I remember him particularly one time. The barber in the front chair, -one Saturday morning, he cut his hair. You know, the barber chair is -only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between -that and the sink. Well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair -and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the -barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his -hair. - -In other words, what he was trying to do--fixing to or wanting to, -he just pushed him out. He was just rude and we all remembered that -time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or -less highstrung type of guy. I mean he is a real good fellow but you -wouldn't want to push him too far and I remembered that real well, and -I saw him--the only time I remember seeing him, you know, other than -just going in the grocery store across the street, Mr. Hutchison's -food market, and I was down at the drugstore one night, down at -Williamsburg's and he was in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Williamsburg's--that's in Irving? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it's down on Rock Island and Rogers Road. And, why I -remembered seeing him in there, I knew I couldn't understand his wife, -and that was before--I believe it was before she had her baby. The best -I remember she was pregnant. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen her before? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. That's the only time I had ever saw her, that I remember. -You know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but I didn't -pay any attention. Sometimes there were two women with him and I -assumed it was Mrs. Paine, but Mrs. Paine has never been in the shop. -I have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live -right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the -corner and I'm trying to think of his name---- - -Mr. JENNER. On the fifth? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. And Westbrook--that old gentleman, I knew him for years, -but I don't never call his name and I can't think of it now to save my -neck. I would know it if I hear it called, but anyhow, you know, I've -stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. I've got -some rent houses, you know, and I would get out of the shop and I would -go by and see them and I would come by this fellow's house and I would -stop there and I saw Mrs. Paine out in the yard and I know all of the -people that live around there, nearly, around the Paine's house, but I -never had any connection with Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine. - -Them is the things there about Oswald that I personally, you know, that -I ever paid any attention to and one other time--when the boy in the -middle chair cut his hair. It was on Friday night and it was about 5 -or 10 minutes to 7, the best I remember. Now, why I am saying this is -the fact that I was going to a football game. My shop has a door in the -back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on -the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a -narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and I change -clothes back there, and I had the door but, as he came in the front -door, I started out--I went out the back. The next morning this boy -that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but -the boy that works there, and I slipped off and went to the football -game--business had kind of slowed up about that time. But anyhow, he -really was inquisitive as to where I went. He wanted to know where I -was going and what I was going to do--he asked this guy cutting his -hair. You see, he didn't think nothing about it then. He just thought -maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there. - -Of course, there is some other things that happened but I could kick my -own self for. There was a 14-year-old boy come in with him a few times, -and--not every time, but I know he has been in there as much as two or -three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about 3 or 4 -days before this incident happened. This kid was in the shop---- - -Mr. JENNER. Three or four days before November 22? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. This boy was in the shop and the boy in the front -chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there -is this old saying, "If you haven't heard this you haven't been around -barbershops." The guys are always talking about we spend too much money -overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just -the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is -going. They talk that in the barbershop and you hear it until you want -to run. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right, they solve all the problems of the world. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they -were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best I -remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there -work the night shift, and I think they go to work around 3:30 or 4 -o'clock, so, I know it was around 3 or 2:30, or 3. - -Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and this kid was in here. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you there? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; what I am saying is--after they were doing all this -talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front -chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says -nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. However, I try to -keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business -when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business -and all this talk was going on and I could tell he was listening and -directly he said, "I can tell you when you will stop all of this greed -and everything." - -And I said, "What do you mean, son?" And, he said, "Well, when you have -one leader over everyone else." And, he said, leader--he didn't just -say country. I remember that--how he said it. And, I said, "What do you -mean 'one leader'"? And he said, "Well, when you don't have a leader in -every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another" -and he said, "Another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other -fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when -everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole -country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going -to quit having wars and all this junk." And I said, "Where in the world -did you get that kind of stuff?" - -He never did answer me, but it made me so--if I knew then what I know -now, I would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to -quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. Instead, -it made me mad, just to be honest about it--I would like to have took -one of them razor straps and tore him up. If he had been a 14-year-old -boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he -got up and left the shop and I haven't heard him since, and I didn't -find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. The anger in him saying -that is where I did it, and I--the guy that talks like that, I know -one thing I should, as Mr. Odum told me, I should have found out where -he lived, where he went to school or something, but I didn't do it. It -just made me so mad the thing I wanted him to do was get out of there. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum is the FBI agent? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he's one of them, and I know Mr. Odum--he came -back. He wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come -back several times and I met him several times--I don't know. I will -be honest with you--I don't--I know how to call him at any time, but -that's where your old temper gets away with you. I realize now that I -should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything -back to him--I didn't have to agree with him, but I could have found -out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know -it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and I -never give it a thought. - -Just like Oswald--I owned the shop and naturally I wanted to see every -head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy -like Oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you -hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude I felt, but I -know I was wrong about it, but it's done and there ain't nothing I can -do about it. - -I just have watched and watched and I don't know a soul to ask, because -Oswald is dead and he's the only one I ever saw that kid with--he is -the only one that I ever saw that kid with and I don't remember seeing -him since that time--I don't know who he was any more than nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. How many times--you personally, now, without someone else -having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall -when he was in your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The 14-year-old boy? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Three times--I know. In other words, I know he came with -Oswald the night I'm talking about when he wanted to know where I was -going and I went to the back door. You see, I seen them coming in and I -did hurry to get out the back door. - -Mr. JENNER. The boy came in? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He was with him that night and he was with him one other -time. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you fix that particular time? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe 3 weeks before -that night. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the night you say you were going out to the -football game--when was that? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. It was Friday night and this was the last time Oswald -came in and I'm just saying this as near as I think, but I think it -was--in other words--was it Thursday or Friday that the President was -killed? - -Mr. JENNER. Friday the 22d. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was probably 2 weeks before that. - -Mr. JENNER. Two weeks before that? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. And it was about Monday night before that when the -kid--it could be a week's difference there, but I don't think it is. - -Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. This football game incident -occurred, you think, 2 weeks prior? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the evening of the 8th of November? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe that's right, just as near right as I can get -it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a high school football game on Friday night, as I -remember? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; like I say, it could have possibly been 3 weeks -prior to that, but I'm almost sure it wasn't. I'm so nearly sure--I -would say it was almost for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. It could possibly have been the 1st of November but you are -pretty sure that it was the 8th? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I just nearly knew it was the 8th, I think it was the 8th -and I'll tell you why I think it was the 8th. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always -wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he -got a haircut about every 2 weeks, and I don't think he ever went over -2 weeks--he either got a haircut on Friday night or Saturday morning, -and in running that back through my mind, and I thought about it then -and I have since. - -Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion was this 14-year-old boy with him? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the -football game? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did see him and you did see the 14-year-old boy on -that occasion? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you -know of your own knowledge. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Buddy Lowe, the one that just works part time. - -Mr. JENNER. The new man--the middle chair? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning, -you know, about it and I wondered why I didn't think something about -the character, but the next morning, he said, "Man, that guy was really -inquisitive about where you were going last night." That guy that come -in with him. Of course, we don't know his name from Adam and we have -lots of customers that we don't know their names. - -Mr. JENNER. When he came in with the 14-year-old boy, did the -14-year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He just sat in the shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He just come with him. I assumed, and I'm just saying -this because I haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than -with Oswald, that he doesn't live in Irving. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know, -in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and -when I see schoolkids. I'm always kind of wondering if I'm ever going -to see him again and I never, had never saw that kid since. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that boy since? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut -every 2 weeks? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Either on Friday night or on Saturday morning? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And there were occasions when you personally cut his hair? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I think I cut it--I know of three times that I cut -it and I might have cut it more than that, but I don't think that I did -because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss -knowing him when he is in your chair. - -Mr. JENNER. You cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your -shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time---- - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I would say we cut his hair five or possibly six -times. - -Mr. JENNER. Five or six times? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. At least. - -Mr. JENNER. Five and possibly six? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. At least--being in the barber business and all and -studying people and all, they might go an extra week, but ordinarily, -you know, in cutting their hair, you can tell about how long they've -gone--in other words, if you knew how they cut it before, you can tell -just about how long they have gone for a haircut, and that's what I was -referring to a while ago, and it was about 2 weeks before that, and the -only times I can remember definitely out of the five times and possibly -six he was in my shop--I'd say that all the five or six times was in -succession either, it might have been--he may have missed some haircuts -and one or two in between somewhere in there. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean he might have had his hair cut somewhere -else? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm just trying to figure out this 22d and the 8th--did -this hair-cutting go back into the summer? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. You know, that's--like I say, that's a saying--to point -back, and you know, just to say that that is the first time this guy -has come in here--I just can't pinpoint the first time. In other words, -it has been hard and I have tried to think, especially after I got that -call yesterday evening to come over here. I tried to run that back -through my mind and I wouldn't say when was the first time he was in -there and of course we have talked about it--me and the barbers, and -it seemed to me like there was a dead spot in there. Sometime--maybe a -month or 6 weeks that we might not have saw him, be the first time I -cut his hair, but the last three haircuts--it seemed to me like he was -pretty regular. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He was pretty regular--at the last three. - -Mr. JENNER. So, if you had a dead spot, allowing for--let's say getting -a haircut somewhere else occasionally, or not coming in precisely at -the end of every 2-week period and having in mind that your present -recollection is at least five or six occasions, that would run it back -into the summertime? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it was. In other words, 2 or 3 or 4 months that -we had been seeing him, but I don't know just exactly to the date or -nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. On how many of these occasions would you say--does your -recollection serve you--as to whether he was accompanied by this -14-year-old boy? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Twice--in other words--the only times I remember seeing -the boy was twice when he was with him. He was with him the night he -got the haircut, the last time he was in the shop, and he was with -him before that, the time before that this kid was with him. The two -last times he was in the shop, this boy was with him, and that's the -only time I ever saw the boy with him, but then about--in other words, -what I am saying, he came in on Friday, was--we'll say it is the 8th -there and then a week from this coming Monday the boy was in and got -a haircut, but Oswald wasn't with him. The boy came in by himself and -that tries to contradict what I said that I don't think he lived in -Irving, but why I said I don't think he lived in Irving, I have never -saw him before and I have been there 4 years and I have seen so many -kids grow up and I know their names, but I know their faces, but I -just have never saw him before, and that's one of those times that you -are sorry that you, like I said, let your temper get away. Since then -I have really wished--if I had done something, because this kid in my -estimation, even though he is warped in his thinking, and I think he is -warped, he could be helped if somebody could get ahold of him, but I -was the one that had an opportunity to try to and I let it slip. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you charge for a haircut? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. $1.25. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is cash on the barrelhead, isn't it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. I tell you that much--like somebody comes in -and wants to know if they can get a free haircut, and when somebody -goes to giving you something, you had better watch out--you had better -be careful. - -Mr. JENNER. And you manage the till? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, no, sir; each one of us, we all have our same -drawers. I don't have a cash register, we have drawers, and that way, -if they give the wrong change back, it's not anything out of my pocket. - -Mr. JENNER. You cut hair and you have two---- - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I have one full time and one part time. - -Mr. JENNER. You have three chairs? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the occasions you saw this man would you describe his -appearance so far as his attire is concerned? How was he dressed? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The best I remember is that he had on some kind of -coveralls, nearly every time he came in. - -Mr. JENNER. Coveralls? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he wore unionalls or coveralls, you know, sir. They -were G.I., of some description and they were green or a khaki-colored. -The only time he wasn't dressed that way when he came in the shop was -the night I went to the football game and that night he had on a pair -of old worn out dress pants of some kind, they were dark, and he had on -a sports shirt with his shirttail out. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me get at these coveralls--would you describe them? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. They buttoned down the front. - -Mr. JENNER. They buttoned down the front and they had sleeves--it was a -one-piece unit? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And covers you from top to bottom, full sleeves? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, one pair--one time I remember--he had pretty hairy -arms. I remember that about him, you know, he had black hair on his -arms, and one time he had on short sleeves. These coveralls had the -sleeves cut off and they were ragged--I mean--they were long sleeves -originally but they had just been chopped off. He is the type of guy -that when you met him you couldn't hardly forget him. I'll say that. I -mean, there is just something about him and I think I could say that -for all three of us that worked there in the shop that every time he -came in--we would ask him to come back, but right down deep we didn't -want him back. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shave? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shampoo? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing but a haircut? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Just a haircut. - -Mr. JENNER. And what color did you say these coveralls were? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, they were either--I don't know what color you call -them old dungarees. You know, them old combat coveralls that the Army -wears. That's what they were. Now, somebody, I believe that Mr. Odum is -the one that asked me was they Marine coveralls or Army or something -like that, and that, I don't have any idea on. - -Mr. JENNER. They were the military type? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. They were the military type. They wasn't the kind you -just go down to the dry goods store and buy. I know that. He may have -bought them at a surplus store for all I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were there occasions you saw this man that you have in -mind on the street when he didn't come into your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, I saw him going to the grocery store when he didn't -come to the shop. - -Mr. JENNER. And you occasionally saw him--is the grocery store across -the street? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Hutch's Market? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And how was he dressed on those occasions? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I think most usually, like I said, the only time -I ever saw him with anything but those coveralls on was that night he -came in the shop--he had those on--those old coveralls on when he was -over there and another thing, they were big for him. I always noticed -they were big enough for him and somebody else. - -Mr. JENNER. They were very loose-fitting? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And even on those occasions when you saw him across the -street at Hutch's, he had the coveralls, the military-type coveralls on? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; of course. He could have went in there times I -didn't see him. And I don't know how many times I saw him but I have -seen him over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I just want the times that you saw him. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I wouldn't even commence to guess--probably three or four -times over there. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him about three or four times across the street? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words, his store sits over here and my shop -is here and these glasses, lot of them down here, a lot of times if -somebody has been in the shop that you are paying attention to, you -can even see them in the back mirrors, back there and he--and you just -notice and you are always looking at the front door. I mean, since I -own the shop I ask everybody in. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have the chair next to the window? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I have the back chair. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't cut the young man's hair? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he was in the front chair--the front barber chair -with Mr. Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you describe this young man to me, how was he -dressed? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he had on blue jeans and they fit tight and he had -on an old striped shirt. I remember him just like I see a picture over -there right now and he was a husky kid, he wasn't what you call fat, -but he was strong--broad-shouldered--he had a real full, and when I say -full, I don't mean a round fat face, he was a wide-faced kid. You know, -he was a nice looking kid. I mean, if he had had the personality and -the teaching and the understanding to go with his looks, he could have -done anything he wanted to do, but his personality to me made him look -terrible and what he thought, and naturally when somebody disagrees -with you to the point you get angry with them, you don't think much of -their looks, but if you bring it down to his looks, he was blue-eyed, -blonde-headed--he was not a light blonde he was a dark blonde. In fact -a lot of people might call him brown-headed. But he wasn't nobody's -dummy because a 14-year-old boy can't spit out--I wouldn't attempt to -say just how he said everything, but the things that struck me when he -belittled our country and our leaders as a whole--I might disagree with -our leaders but I'll stick up for them when it comes time--down to the -point. - -Mr. JENNER. Sure, and you have a distinct recollection, do you, that -there were occasions when you saw this man in the coveralls over at -Hutch's Market that he was accompanied by somebody else? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize any of the persons who were -accompanying him? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I wouldn't say I did because most of the time--they -headed--they got out of the car and we saw their backs, and I would see -him and I just knew it was him. Once you cut somebody's hair that close -you are close enough so that you know them outside or when you see them. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you're not in a position, I take it, then, to say that -you have a distinct recollection that Mrs. Paine accompanied them at -anytime? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, that part of it I would have to take for -granted because they were in his car. Now, she, I understand through -one of the men who questioned me out at the shop, said he never did -drive her car. Again, I'm going to disagree because I know that he did. -He drove it up there and got a haircut. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when -this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up -to your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure -it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or -green and white--it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I -take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the -grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to -the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that -that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been -close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the -service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay -any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the -car and those things. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you have a recollection as to -his being accompanied by more than one person? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; that's what I said--I saw him and two ladies get out -and go in the store. - -Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions did you see that? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I was trying to think of that coming over here and -I know of twice and one of the times that I'm saying--it was the next -morning after he had gotten a haircut the night I went to the football -game, the next morning they were over to the store. You see, I open up -early around 7 in the morning and it was 8 o'clock, or so, not knowing -the exact hour. I would say it was 8 o'clock or 8:30 when they were -over at the store that Saturday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the 9th of November? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; because one reason it made me remember that, I had -just come back--I had just come back from across the street to get -some cigarettes and they come up and pulled in and I walked over and -naturally I looked back across the street and I saw them getting out -and he wasn't driving at that time. I will agree but whenever I saw him -come with somebody else in the car he wasn't driving, but occasionally -he drove himself up there to get a haircut and Mr. Odum says, "Now, -that contradicts with some of the other information." I said, "I can't -help what it contradicts with, that's just the fact and that's it." - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him driving up that -he had the 14 year-old boy with him? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; the night he got the haircut. - -Mr. JENNER. The night of November 8? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; you see the difficulty was, I was wanting to get out -of giving a haircut and I had just gotten through with a guy, and I was -trying to get my tools put up and they pulled up in front and I kind of -left them half cocked, half cleaned up, and I ran back in the closet -to try to get away, because I saw there was two of them, you see, and -I figured they both would want a haircut. When they pulled up with -the headlights and I saw two get out I figured they both would want a -haircut. - -Mr. JENNER. This was night, was it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was dark? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; it was done dark outside--I couldn't tell -who they were when they drove up but he was driving that night and I -was hurrying trying to get out and I went out the back door, because -ordinarily, if there had been two, one of them would have wanted me -to cut his hair and the other one would want the other boy to, and I -thought, well, maybe they can wait and let me go to the football game. -It's hard for me to get away for a football game and that night was -when the boy was with him and he drove up there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall bring interviewed by FBI Agent Berry on the -3d of December? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. And he is from Oklahoma, I believe. He came on -the 4th, I mean on the 2d, and came back on the 3d. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall saying at that time that you had a -recollection that he had been at your shop for the purpose of obtaining -a haircut for the past 2 or 3 months? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was the occasion in point of time that this -business respecting the yellow shoes occurred--how far prior to that? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words on the 8th there, he got a haircut on a -Friday night. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. And I would say it was 2 or 3 weeks before that on -Saturday morning, because I was the only one in the shop and he was the -first one there that morning. - -Mr. JENNER. On reflection, you fix it as 2 to 3 weeks on a Saturday -morning prior to November 8? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That would take us back to--that would be either the 25th -of October or the 18th of October? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Possibly; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it have been 2 to 3 months prior? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe so, not when he had the shoes on, the -house shoes on that morning, because the thing that made me remember -that was the fact that it seemed like I'd found something he agreed -with me on. He even smiled about this; you know, he had a good look on -his face when I complimented his house shoes. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of day was this? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, it was probably 6:45 in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a Saturday morning? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that when he interviewed -you on the 3d of December 1963, that your faint recollection of Oswald -was when he appeared in the shop, your shop on a Saturday, "2 or 3 -months ago at 6:30 in the morning," when you had just opened your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. The first time I remember him was early one -morning. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you remembered him particularly because on this -particular occasion he was wearing house shoes which you considered out -of the ordinary? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, he wore house shoes every time he come over there in -the mornings. I think he may have that a little bit crossed there when -he and I talked about it. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you also said you had commented to Oswald -concerning the house shoes and suggested that they must be quite -expensive and Oswald said, "No; not where I bought them," and you -stated that he said he had purchased the shoes in Old Mexico for only a -dollar and a half? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice there is an inconsistency there--you -were firm that the house shoes incident occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior -to November 8, but in reporting this to Agent Berry on the 3rd of -December, you stated it occurred 2 to 3 months prior thereto. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe--to tell you the truth, I think in the round of -the talking, I think he just taken that for granted. I don't believe -on that morning--what we were talking about when I said what made me -remember it--like even the night when I saw his picture on television -and all, was the fact that that's the only time, about his house shoes, -is the only time he ever was agreeable--I'll put it that way, in other -words, but he didn't talk much then. In other words, when that was over -he just hushed. - -Mr. JENNER. This hasn't been called to your attention, but is it your -testimony then, as I understand it, that you are firm that the incident -occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior to November 8 rather than 2 to 3 months and -you think Agent Berry misinterpreted it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He either misinterpreted what I said---- - -Mr. JENNER. Or jumped to a conclusion? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these coveralls a little bit -further--they were full length? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they zipper or button down the front? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, that I wouldn't--you know, to make a statement to -say I knew, I wouldn't say, but I would almost say that they buttoned. -At least they had a button at the top. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he normally have them buttoned up to the top, or -did he have them open at the throat? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he had them open, but another thing--you know--there -are little things, like we get to thinking about now--I know that these -old coveralls--he wore them like that [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. He wore them with the collar up? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and just flopping out. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remember one occasion when the coveralls, while -they were long sleeved, somebody had sheared off the sleeves on a -particular pair? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just ragged, they were just chopped off. - -Mr. JENNER. Otherwise, the sleeves were always long down to his wrists? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you this--one of the barbers said his head was -dirty when he cut his hair, but he was always clean when I worked on -him. - -Mr. JENNER. It's hard to explain. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these house shoes, please? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; they were--I wish I could find something--they -were a darker yellow than this right here [indicating]. And they had a -much tanner sole on them--it was almost what you call a brown sole. It -wasn't a leather, it wasn't a rubber, it was like a neoprene. - -Mr. JENNER. The soles were darker than the uppers? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they firm leather, or soft or pliable? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. They were soft and nice, but they were sturdy house -shoes. Of course--like I said, I build a shoe up--one shoe and they -made me notice them, and they were the type you could have built one up -and they would still have stood up and been nice. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these house shoes that had flat soles without heels? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes--they didn't have no heels--they may have had a -little heel, but I mean they didn't have an extra heel, because I -looked at them good. I mean, I wasn't interested in them until he said -he got them from Old Mexico, and I knew that was out. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they the pull-on type or lace type? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were the--just the pull-on type. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have any type of elastic in them? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No--no elastic--they were just like loafers to a degree, -only they were nice shoes--it was just a slip-on and they had a spur -piece in the back. - -Mr. JENNER. A spur piece? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. You know what I mean--the back wasn't so flexible--it was -firm--a fitted heel. They were just real nice. - -Mr. JENNER. They had a reasonably firm or higher heel? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words--what I'm talking about--up on the back -part of them. - -Mr. JENNER. The back part is what I'm talking about. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What we call the heel of the shoe--the back of the shoe, -not the heel you step on. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes--this part here and then they had a round thing, you -know, like this here [indicating] only it went out and dropped down to -a point out here and had a seam sewed around the top, whatever it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Like a moccasin type? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they looked like a moccasin to a degree and these -loafers, as you called them, but they were in between. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they perfectly plain other than the moccasin sewing? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe they were--they didn't have no--that's the -reason I thought they would have been from Mexico is they, if they had -had a lot of trimmings on them or something like that, but they didn't -have. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have fasteners of any type on them? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; that's why I liked them. They were just something I -could've jumped in. - -Mr. JENNER. No metal fasteners? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. They didn't have nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Or even leather fasteners? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. If somebody would find them I would still give two and a -half for them. - -Mr. JENNER. How many haircuts did he get---- - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Six or seven, is that what you said? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he could have possibly gotten seven haircuts but I -think about six haircuts is what he got. It could have possibly been -five. - -I know personally three times I cut his hair and I know that the front -guy cut his hair one time, Mr. Glover, and Mr. Law cut his hair one -time and Buddy--he might have cut it one other time and if he did that -would've made six. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that in all this man had -obtained six or seven haircuts at your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I told him it was possibly six or seven, you know, in -other words--he didn't pin me down to just exactly--he wanted to know -if I thought it was and I told him it could have been seven times. - -Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I believe--I don't believe he ever got eight haircuts -in there--I don't believe it could have been over seven. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is that the agent reports as you -said that Oswald had obtained seven or eight haircuts at your shop. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. You see, I told him about the times I remembered and he -said, "Could he possibly have been in here more than that?" And I said, -"Sure he could have possibly been in here more than that, but to have -an actual remembrance of him--I wouldn't." - -Mr. JENNER. But in any event, your present recollection, after thinking -it through further, is that it was six, and it might even have been as -few as five? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. It could have been five, but I personally know of five -times he was in there and like I told him, he could have been in there -two or three other times when I wasn't in there, because sometimes, -it's not very often I do, but occasionally Mr. Law will open up in the -morning and I won't be there right on time. Because, like I said, I -went to a football game and that--there could have been other times -that he came in that I wasn't there, but I asked Buddy did he ever -remember cutting his hair and he said he thought he did cut it another -time than the time--so if he did, there was six times, and of course, -Mr. Glover, he doesn't keep up with whose hair he cuts as much as some -of the others--he's not a friendly type guy, but Buddy said he might -have cut his hair more than once. - -The things that made us know when he cut his hair is like when Mr. -Glover cut his hair, he went around and instead of using his back bar -to look in the mirror and comb his hair, he went down to the one at -the middle chair and just rudely pushed out of the way and he got up -there and combed his hair and turned his water on, you know, and got -some more oil and put on it, on his hair, and he didn't say thank you -or excuse me or nothing. He just pushed in there--those things make you -remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give you a tip? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give any of the other barbers a tip? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it customary for your customers to give you a tip? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or customers to give your barbers a tip? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, naturally, they get more tips than I do because -I own the shop. It would be a very small percentage, because in a -community like that they just expect to pay what the price is. - -Mr. JENNER. And no tips? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; you know, you might get 50 cents or a dollar a -day--something like if somebody might pitch something up there and say, -"Get you some coffee." It's not that type of a barber shop--it's not a -hotel type or anything like that or a bus station type. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this man have any reaction to the haircuts you gave him? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, instead of saying--I get tickled thinking about -it--I don't mean it's funny, but it is irritating. I mean, it's funny -since it's over, but he never did say, "That looks nice," or "That's -all right." He would say, "Aw, that's pretty good, that will do until -I get another one or that will do for this time." He never did say, -"That's a good haircut." I do remember him saying, "Take a 32d off of -the temple." Well, you can't take a 32d off of a man's hair, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. He did come back then? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; we have talked about that--I don't care if we put it -on the record--it's the truth with us barbers--we have laughed about -it, but he's not the only one that said, "Take a third of it," you -know. We laughed about his saying, "Take a 32d," or he would say, "Take -a 16th off of the top," or something. I do remember him saying them -things. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was just kidding about it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I don't know but to barbers that's silly, you -know. It's just ridiculous for a man to say "Take a 32d," or raise his -temples a 32d or take a 16th or something off of the top. You cut hair -like the shingles on a house. You cut it to where it will feather in -and not leave gaps. If you pulled it all up and cut it all the same -length and turned it back down on your head, you would have a mess. - -Mr. JENNER. It would look pretty bad? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. It sure would. - -Mr. JENNER. It might look like some of the haircuts I get, occasionally. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. But those things--I believe that news reporter--I have -forgotten which she was, but she asked me a while ago a few things -about him and I said, "He's just the type of guy you couldn't forget -but you just hoped he never come back." - -But she wasn't--she wanted to know what kind of nature he was or -something like that. That's what makes barbering interesting--you meet -all kinds. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I'm sure you do. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. And like you were talking about there he came -back--one time one of the barbers--now this time I don't know, more -know which time it was than anything, but there was somebody sitting -out in the chair, and they made a remark about him saying take a -certain amount off and after he left, I said, "Well, we get that amount -off." And this fellow said, "How in the world do you do that?" And -I said, "Well, we satisfy him--and if he is real satisfied, when he -leaves, he comes back." I always make dry cracks and things like that, -that breaks the monotony in the shop and I have practiced it, and it's -hard for me to be serious sometimes, you know, about things, and you -just have to break the monotony in the barber shop or people would get -in there and get soured on the world. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Robert Davis has come in and he is a special -assistant attorney general of Texas, and this is Mr. Shasteen, Mr. -Davis. He owns and operates a barber shop in Irving, Tex. - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes--Mr. Shasteen. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did these coveralls have any pockets in them? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--what do they look like, looking at them -just the full front? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the full front? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; as I'm looking at you now across the desk here. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the ones that were cut off at the sleeves, I can -remember the most. They just had some old pockets up here--[indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. On each breast area? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a large pocket, large patch pocket? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were just outside patch pockets and pockets on -the front were patch pockets, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean at the hip on either side? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. They had some front pockets on either side. - -Mr. JENNER. Just one pocket or two? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, you pin me down until--to say that, I don't know. -I noticed the top, but I did notice the hip pockets they had two hip -pockets on them. When he got his billfold out, I just wondered how in -the world, if he ever sat down he didn't lose the thing. You know, they -were big enough--that's why I said they were big enough for two. They -sagged and the pockets just leaned back and you could have just walked -up and reached in there and got his billfold and never touched him. - -Mr. JENNER. None of these pockets had flaps or buttons on them? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I think the two of them up here maybe had a flap. - -Mr. JENNER. The two top ones had a flap? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The hip pockets didn't--they didn't have no flap or -button. - -Mr. JENNER. They were patch pockets, too? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And these coveralls were so loose fitting that it made the -pockets hang down? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just real loose. Even if you had a belt -on them that pulled them around or something--I just couldn't stand to -wear something shuffling through it like that. - -Mr. JENNER. And the best of your recollection is that there were two -breast pockets and at least one hip or side pocket. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I'm sure they had side pockets in front. - -Mr. JENNER. Were those also patch? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe they were. - -Mr. JENNER. And they had two hip rear patch pockets? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about the pockets that drew your -attention, I'm talking about the front ones, now? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; not anything unusual about the front ones, but the -hip pockets were gapped open and sagged down. - -Mr. JENNER. Because these coveralls were so ill fitting? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Because they were just too big--they could have had about -6 inches cut out of them. - -Mr. JENNER. You barbers are generally pretty talkative. Did you seek to -engage this man in conversation when he came into your shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. You couldn't do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, yes; naturally--she don't need to write this down -because this ain't going to help you a bit what I'm fixing to say, -but the theory I work on as a barber--if a man gets in a chair, and I -tell my other barbers that, if he gets in a chair and you strike up -a conversation with him and he doesn't want to talk, don't talk to -him--you say just as little as you can. - -Mr. JENNER. That makes sense. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. But if the guy wants to talk, then talk to him, if he--if -you can talk to him on his level or understand the thing he's talking -about, but if a man gets in your chair and he doesn't want to talk, you -can find it out without him turning around and saying, "Cut my hair, I -didn't come in here to have a bull session." I mean, that's barber shop -language, and I try to practice that, and nearly any time he come in I -would mention the weather or a football game--I mean, a barber has to -get up and read the paper every morning and turn the radio on because -everybody that comes in, if you're not up on the latest things that's -happening, you're going to be sitting back there and you can't talk to -them. - -I usually run through the paper real hurriedly and see the headlines -at least and I turn the radio on and you just couldn't strike up a -conversation with him and I guess if I had ever mentioned politics to -him, but we try to avoid that as much as possible in the shop. Had I -ever talked politics with him, I might have gotten him on that but -since he was the type guy he was, I never cared to talk politics with -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, in any event, he evidenced no interest in the bull -session, as you described it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that true of your helpers? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The front chair barber--he is the type barber that -doesn't talk a lot anyway and he would talk about fishing or wrestling -a little bit, but I don't think he ever said half a dozen words to him -altogether. He told him how he wanted his hair cut. - -You might attempt to ask me what kind of haircut he wore. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. You could just name it, because he didn't wear it long -and he didn't wear it short. It was almost short enough to stand up but -it was too long to stand up. He just wore a rough shod haircut because -many times I thought, "Boy, you sure ought to let this grow out up here -where it will lay down and comb nice or either cut it off where it -would stand up." But like I say, he wanted that little bit taken off. -I tell you what he did do--He did try to make the barber work all he -could. He seemed like he wanted you to do all the work and naturally, -that's another thing, I have a bad attitude towards some people. If a -guy doesn't ask me to do much, I'll do a right smart, but if he thinks -I owe him something, he won't get any extras. - -Mr. JENNER. What color hair did this man have? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, he was dark headed--I wouldn't say he was real black, -you know, what I mean, he wasn't jet black, but most people would call -him black-headed. - -Mr. JENNER. What color would you say your hair was? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Mine is dark brown, and what is not grey up it's covered -up with oil. - -Mr. JENNER. What color would you say mine is? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, now I think your hair is--it's a shade of black. It's -not a dark black. I would say his hair was about the color of yours--it -might have been a little bit darker. It might have been a little -smuttier. You see, hair is a funny thing--a guy can be dark headed and -if he puts oil on it, he looks real black and if he washes the oil out -it's got a smutty look and he never did wear much oil because about the -only time he ever come in the shop, he never had his hair combed and he -never had any oil on it or nothing and naturally after we cut his hair -and put a little oil on it, it made it look darker. - -Mr. JENNER. It darkened it up? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. My hair is a whole lot darker with a little oil on it. -Now, this fellow here, referring to Mr. Davis---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, you're talking about? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. His hair, if you took the oil off of his hair and washed -it out with some kind of heavy shampoo, it would almost be what you -call a blonde or light red, is that right? - -Mr. DAVIS. (No response.) - -Mr. JENNER. How much hair did he have? A full head of hair? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. To me, he didn't have a full head of hair. It was rather -short and thin around here by the temples and the way his hair lies -back, he would have been bald if he had been 40 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. He had hair around the center, but he was losing his hair -around the sides of the forehead? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; there was just a little crease that started back -here. Naturally, a barber would notice that because the hair is much -finer back here, you see, than it was down here [indicating]. In other -words, I have as much hair as I ever had but it's just so fine you -can't see it and that's what happens to a guy when he gets bald-headed. -The hair is still there but it just doesn't grow. It's just little -fuzz, and that hair of his, in another 5 or 6 years he would have been -bald-headed. You can believe it. - -I can tell you another thing--I don't know whether I told this fellow -or not, may have. There are little things you can't remember, but he -just had a hard look, just sitting in the chair. I'll tell you this -much--if a guy comes in the barbershop and he's got a pretty good -disposition and he smiles and speaks to people, every barber will want -to cut his hair, but if a guy comes in there and he kind of looks -grouchy, in barber language we call it soldiering on one another. We -might work on a guy just a little bit longer if this guy's next so -somebody else will have to get him. He's just the type guy you don't -care about working on. I mean, he was just that type. I believe I can -speak for all three of the barbers because I have heard their opinion -about him. They didn't care if he never came back. - -And, he never helped the shop. Well, you will say, how can a customer -help the shop? When you ask a man to come back, when he starts out the -door and if he says, "Thank you," or "I'll be back," or "I'll see you -in 2 weeks,"--that's the language that is used around the barbershop, -that helps the feeling at the barbershop, but if ask a guy going out -the door to come back and he didn't even grunt, you know, that just -lowers its morale in a barbershop right quick. - -I know that customers don't think about that, but we as barbers--that's -our business and we watch that and you would be surprised, if a guy -comes in and you give a haircut and you thank him, when he pays you, -and the barber ordinarily when he leaves for that door, when he starts -out, he asks him to come back and if he says, "I'll see you in 2 -weeks," or "Thank you for asking me to come back," it just builds up -the morale in a shop, but he wasn't that type. - -Mr. JENNER. I might have misled you a little bit ago--I mentioned your -being interviewed on the 3d of December. The fact is that interview was -on the 2d, was it not, the 2d of December? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is--why I say that, he came one day--I didn't -put the dates down and I didn't try to remember them, but he came one -day and I was real busy--the kids were trying to get a haircut for some -program. - -Mr. JENNER. The 2d of December was on a Monday? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe he came Monday and then he came back -Tuesday. In other words, he came one day and he got there a little late -and the kids were having their pictures made up at the school there -nearby and they were sitting in there and he said, "Suppose I come back -tomorrow?" He said, "I have some other places I need to go." And I told -him it would be fine or I would take him in a few minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mr. Odum interviewing at a later time, the -16th of December? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but he didn't make any notes to my knowledge, but I -cut his hair. - -Mr. JENNER. He made notes all right, I can tell you that. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He did--I josh and go on with Mr. Odum a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know him? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Likewise a Monday? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe it was. I cut Mr. Odum's hair about a week -and a half ago. Do you know him? (Addressing Mr. Davis.) - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. He's the type guy you like to have come in any time. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling him on that occasion that you had -never been able to identify the 14-year old boy, that this boy had been -in your shop on one occasion about 2 months prior to that day, that is -prior to December 16, and that would make it around the 16th of October? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, we--in other words, there were no customers in -there, but the barbers and I think he was in there, as I told you, I -think we were nearly positive about that, but if I told you I knew he -was, I couldn't be sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. It was on a Wednesday or Thursday and Oswald's hair was cut -on that occasion by your fellow barber, Burt Glover? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and Burt is the one that says that was on a Thursday. - -Mr. JENNER. You see, this is what you told Mr. Odum, and that Glover -says on the next Monday or Tuesday he cut the hair of the 14-year old -boy? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would be sometime in October? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Evidently that's the time that I don't--that wasn't the -time that he made the statement at all. If he got a haircut--but, if -you know Burt like I know Burt, I don't know that Burt knows that that -was the boy, but he still says it is. I think it was--I wouldn't be -sure about it. - -Mr. JENNER. All I have in mind here is your report to Agent Odum. Then -you told him at that occasion, that is, when the boy got his haircut on -Monday or Tuesday, that Oswald was not in the shop but that somebody -else had brought the boy to the shop. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; somebody let him out. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that something Glover told you? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No. When he got his haircut, when he made the statement? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; somebody brought him and somebody picked him up, but -they didn't pull right in front of the shop. They just let him out in -front in the street. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice whether there was a woman or man or men that -brought him to the shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. I know what you're fixing to ask and I could kick my own -self, but I didn't pay no attention to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what type of automobile--did you notice it at -all? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I noticed the car. Now, I'll tell you the man's name -that I know--I know it is in my estimation--it was in the 1958 bracket -and as the old saying is, it didn't have the wings on it. This was the -thing that I noticed. - -Mr. JENNER. But it wasn't the station wagon you have described? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I think it was a 1958 Ford--them there old -gun-colored, it was a dark color, but it wasn't black or nothing, and -that's what let him out--the kid out in front. - -Mr. JENNER. But this was the occasion the boy made the remark, "There -wouldn't be no peace until all the people had the same amount of -possessions and that most of our trouble now is caused because the poor -people have so little and the rich so much?" - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And this boy indicated peace would come when all the people -had the amount of--the same amount of wealth? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. And had one leader--he didn't say "ruler," he said -"leader." We talked about that and noticed it after he left. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement to Agent Odum? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. I have made it in my mind a dozen times since -then--just thinking of a 14-year old boy having that kind of distilled -stuff in his mind. It's not funny to me, it hurts me to see a kid with -that kind of an attitude, because somebody is teaching him wrong and -the thing that hurts me the most was the fact that I did have a chance -to have took him and bought him a coke or took him and done something -and talked to him and found out who he was and where I could have at -least reasoned with him or turned him in where somebody--some of the -authorities could have gotten ahold of him or anything, but it made me -mad and I didn't do it. That's why we shouldn't let our tempers--you -fellows are lawyers and you know that you can't let your temper get too -far, but some of us people do let our tempers get away and that's one -time I let mine get away. I would much rather have took him and whipped -him with one of the belts or razor straps than took his money. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think of nothing else. - -Do you have anything in mind to ask him, Mr. Davis? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, is this person still coming, have you seen him any -more--when is the last time you saw him at the shop? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. This boy--I never saw that boy since that day. Of course, -I don't remember exactly, the exact words, you know, I was kind of -angry and aggravated and then you say things, but I let him know that -that was no way for anybody to feel and I told him he was just off--way -off base, and I said, "I don't know where you got your learning and -your thinking," but I said, "Boy, I disagree with you whole-heartedly." -And I said--I have a bad habit of telling people they had better take -inventory and see if they are right, and I told him, I said, "You had -better take inventory and find out where you stand because you are just -at the right age that you can get in a lot of trouble thinking like -that." - -Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you what your age was? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. No; 39. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How old is Mr. Glover? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. 32. - -Mr. JENNER. And your third barber? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. 39. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all, and we appreciate your coming in. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I wish I could help you, but I know it doesn't help -you a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you helped us by telling us everything you know. - -Mr. DAVIS. We surely do appreciate your coming in. - -Mr. JENNER. If you wish to read your deposition and make any -corrections if you think any are warranted, you may do so and sign it, -if you wish, or you can waive all that if you wish to? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I couldn't read what she has been writing there. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it by that that you had just as soon waive your -signature and reading it over? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And signing it? - -Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Shasteen, thank you very much. I appreciate -it. - -Mr. SHASTEEN. It's good to meet you fellows. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LEONARD EDWIN HUTCHISON - -The testimony of Leonard Edwin Hutchison was taken at 9 a.m., on March -25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn, please? - -In the testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are Leonard Edwin Hutchinson? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. It's Hutchison (spelling) H-u-t-c-h-i-s-o-n, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. i-s-o-n? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live at Scandia Apartments? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Apartment No. 505, at 601 West Sixth Street, Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hutchison, the Presidential Assassination Commission -appointed pursuant to Presidential Executive Order No. 11130, of -November 29, 1963, and Senate and House of Representatives Joint -Resolution No. 137, of the 88th Congress, is investigating the -assassination of President John F. Kennedy here in Dallas, Tex., on the -22d of November 1963, and all of the circumstances surrounding it. - -Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for -the Commission? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the joint resolution and -of the Executive order? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I read them several times. - -Mr. JENNER. And we are advised, from information we have, that you -may have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald and his -visiting in Irving, Tex., and possibly some information respecting the -Paines. And we would like to inquire of you of those circumstances. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation or profession? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm a retail grocery owner, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you operate that business? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I operate the business. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is your retail grocery store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. On the corner of Shady Grove and Storey Road. - -Mr. JENNER. In what town? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Irving, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you just tell me, in general, the nature of your -market or store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I have a complete supermarket, sir--retail -grocery, meat, fresh fish, produce and all necessary food items. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the Paine family or Mrs. Paine a customer of your market? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a regular customer--just a drop in. - -Mr. JENNER. She does, from time to time, come by the store and purchase -food stuffs? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Paine--that is, would you -recognize her if you saw her? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I would recognize her if I saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have had occasion to speak with her? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; just to speak. I try to salute everyone that -comes in. - -Mr. JENNER. Naturally. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That's just the business. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where her home is located in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your market with respect to her home? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; you would turn east a block and a half--turn -right, and I'm 8 blocks due south. - -Mr. JENNER. You turn east a block and a half--and what cross street is -that? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That is Storey, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you would go down Storey south---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. To Shady Grove. - -Mr. JENNER. To Shady Grove? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Approximately how many blocks? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. It's 8 blocks from Fifth to Shady Grove. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have a large parking lot area? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I would consider it fairly large; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has testified with respect to attempting to -teach Lee Oswald to drive an automobile, and that she went to a -supermarket area, which she said was approximately 8 blocks from her -home--it took her about 4 minutes, 4-1/2 minutes or 5 minutes to drive -there--4 minutes, I guess. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe she could teach on my driveway because -my driveway is three-way parking, and I don't have a lot to where she -could turn, feasibly, around. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -This was, she said, on Sunday afternoons when there were no vehicles on -the lot. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'm open on Sunday so she---- - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you are? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I'm open on Sunday. So she couldn't--my -parking lot is not filled every Sunday, but I don't believe she would -have practiced on my parking lot. It would have been noticed--I would -say that. - -Now, I work until around 3 o'clock on every Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. Every Sunday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; so it would have had to have been after then -and, feasibly, I don't believe she could teach anyone to drive in my -parking lot. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Were you aware that sometime in the fall of 1963, -that a lady was residing with Mrs. Paine who was a Russian emigre? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware in the fall of 1963, that the man we now -know as Lee Harvey Oswald was visiting in the Paine home on weekends? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't--I couldn't say that he was visiting there. -All I can say, Mr. Jenner, is that he came into the store and bought -items like--what I remember so vividly is that it was milk and cinnamon -rolls early in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Milk and cinnamon rolls? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; in the morning--early. When you're not busy -in the morning, you naturally acquaint yourself with people more than -when you are real busy. I mean, when you are there and there's, say, -three or four in the store and you're checking out, you notice people, -you observe them a lot more than you do if you're real crowded. - -Mr. JENNER. So, this being relatively early in the morning, it was -something that arrested your attention? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Never; never. - -Mr. JENNER. How often did this take place? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say I saw the boy approximately four or five -times at the maximum that I can remember--four or five times. And it -would be a day or two or three between. It was always in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Always? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I open at 7 o'clock in the morning, and I would say it -was between 7:20 and 7:45 because it was--it just got to be a routine. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently as to whether these -purchases or visits included midweek days? That is, let's take Monday -through Thursday. Would there be any on those days? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't say. I couldn't pinpoint the day. I -know that--that it was between--there would be a day or two between, or -maybe three between. - -Mr. JENNER. Would your memory serve you as to whether--let's take one -day--there was any degree of regularity of this person's visits to your -market on Monday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no--I couldn't pinpoint Monday. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday, you say. Do you recall this -gentleman you have in mind ever having visited and made purchases on -Sunday morning? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, sir. We do very, very little business up until 9 -o'clock. They'd just be occasionally a drop-in for a, say, a package of -cigarettes or something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Sunday morning is very quiet, sir. I think I'd have -recognized him on Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We can eliminate Sunday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what about Saturday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm not there very often on Saturday morning because -I work Saturday nights. So, I couldn't--I couldn't pinpoint Saturday -morning. - -Mr. JENNER. And the odds are, then--let's see, we've eliminated Sunday -morning--and the likelihood is that you did not see him on Saturday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. So, it would be---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. During the week. - -Mr. JENNER. Monday through Friday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did these visits commence, if you recall? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say--uh--I came back from out of the country -trip in September; so it would have had to have started late September. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your recollection as to their persistence up to -and including November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, it would have been just an occasional drop-in. - -Mr. JENNER. During that period? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; during that period. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see this man at any time subsequent to November 22, -1963? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. After? - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. No, sir. I sure didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I asked you whether he was accompanied by anyone at -anytime and you said, "No." - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Only one time. - -Mr. JENNER. One time? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. One time. Yes. There was a Wednesday evening, he and -his wife and an elderly lady were shopping in midcounters and I was -stocking around a corner and I heard this blurt--uh--statement in -foreign tongue. And, naturally, that would arouse your curiosity to -hear somebody speaking--now, I know Spanish, and I recognize German -and I recognize French--and it wasn't any of those. So, I immediately -came around the counter and he was taking something away from his--this -woman he was with and putting it back on the shelf and talking to her -in this language. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what he was attempting to -convey to her? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That he didn't want her to have it--that he took it away -from her. He still had it--he still had it in her hand--I mean, she -had it in her hand and he took it away from her and put it back on the -shelf. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the afternoon? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That was late in the evening, sir, between--between, -I would say, between 6:45 and 7:30. Because I close at 8:30 and I -recognize that it was earlier. They were buying then what you would say -a complete bill of groceries. They had several items in the basket. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You have the--I don't do much supermarket -shopping--but it's a cart with wheels? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a cart with wheels. - -Mr. JENNER. Self-service? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Self-service. Yes, sir. All my store is self-service, -meat included; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -You said, "This man and his wife." What led you to say that this lady -or woman was his wife? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, uh--later, when her picture came on television, -I--uh--I recognized her. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you use the pronoun "her," you're now referring -to whom? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. To his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina Oswald? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Marina Oswald. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you describe, as best you can, your -present recollection of what this man looked like? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. He was--uh--around 5 foot 10 or 10-1/2; he had a -very, I would say--impressive look about him. It was always, to me, -uh--to her--at that time it was a glare. He was glaring at her. And, -of course, when anyone glares, their facial expressions tighten up and -you just naturally observe someone like that. And it looked like--well, -you wouldn't say a fit of anger, but a disgust or something out of the -ordinary. - -Mr. JENNER. Irritation? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; irritation would be the word. Yes. It wasn't, -"You don't need that," or--of course, I couldn't understand Russian. -I heard Russian of course when I was in the service in Seattle, but I -didn't recognize the language. But he was telling her and it was in -irritation--and he put it back on the shelf. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, I might do this at the moment--what is your age? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm 50. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you a native of the Dallas area? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was raised right down here at Waxahachie, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your formal education was what--elementary school, high -school? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. High school; high school education, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, you spent some time in the service, I gather? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, you make a practice of trying to obtain a -picture in your mind of all your customers? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Of every customer; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And to remember them? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I love people and I love to speak to them and I address -everyone, regardless of creed, color, or anything. I always speak to -them. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a mark of a good salesman--apart from your -normal disposition. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I like people. That's the thing. I like people. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall how this man was attired on that occasion? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. He was in slacks with just--uh--had a little -jacket--uh--I would say just a common, ordinary jacket. - -Mr. JENNER. There's my raincoat hanging there [indicating]. Was it -about that weight or---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. A little heavier; a little heavier jacket. It was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was it that type of material--twill? Or was it wool or what -was it? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Twill. - -Mr. JENNER. Twill? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was twill. - -Mr. JENNER. Short jacket? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Short jacket; yes, sir. Short jacket. - -Mr. JENNER. Zippered? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Zipper--yes, sir. Because it was open. I remember -that. He wore it several times. He had it on--uh--when he came in the -morning. Always an open shirt, always had a--he never wore a tie. I -observed that, naturally. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Describe the lady. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she had on, I would say, a print dress and she had -on a coat. She had on a--not a heavy coat but a---- - -Mr. JENNER. How tall was she? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was around 5 foot 2-1/2 or 3. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the color of her hair? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. She had---- - -Mr. JENNER. A babushka? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No; a scarf. She had a scarf on her head. She had a -white scarf. - -Mr. JENNER. A white scarf? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what I mean when I say "babushka"? It's a scarf -that the ladies have over their head and they tie it under their chin. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the way she wore the scarf? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the shade or color of his hair? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say that it was a kind of dark brown. - -Mr. JENNER. And what about its plenitude--did he have plenty of hair -or---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was--it was combed back each time. He never -wore a hat. His hair was always, I would call it--in mine and your -day--roached. I guess--roached back, just peeled completely back on -both sides. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. And as best you are able to fix it, when was this -with respect to month and what part of the month--the fore part, latter -part, middle part? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, that must have been the latter part of, I would -say, the last 10 days of October. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And was it a midweek? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. It was in midweek, because I only -work Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday nights. So, it would have had to -have been a Wednesday night. - -Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it be that this visit was sometime between the 4th of -October and the 15th of October? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe so. I believe it was later than that, -sir. I believe, if I were to pinpoint it, I would say it was between -the 15th of October and November 1. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you said there was, to your recollection, -an older lady with them? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. With these people? What would you judge her age to be? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was somewhere between 50 and 60. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, sir, she had on a small li'l ole hat and--uh--a -fur coat. She had on a fur cont. And--uh--she said nothing. She just -walks around. - -Mr. JENNER. What color was her hair? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, sir; because she had this hat on. It -was just the language--it was the tone and the language that he was -speaking that attracted me. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was speaking in Russian? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Well, it was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, at least, in a foreign language that you couldn't -understand? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the young lady say anything? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Nothing. She said nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Now--she was a young lady? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you judge her age to be? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say between 20 and 24. - -Mr. JENNER. And his age? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'd say he looked--he at that time looked to be -about 21 or 22. - -Mr. JENNER. He looked younger than she? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether the elderly lady did or did not wear -spectacles--or glasses? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. She had glasses on. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they a horn-rimmed type that I have and you have on? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you recollect--is this the only occasion on which you -saw him---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. With anyone? - -Mr. JENNER. With anyone at all? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the rest of the time, it was by himself. - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of their visiting that day, did you hear -the elderly lady say anything? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I think you said you did not hear the young lady say -anything? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she said nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were purchasing what you would call a--did you say -a "full stock of groceries"? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe for the record what you mean by a full -stock of groceries? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, a full stock of groceries is when they buy soap, -soap powder, sugar, coffee, a few canned goods, milk, bread--say, -a total of $15 to $20 worth of groceries is considered a bill of -groceries. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and you recall that this occasion is what you have now -described as a full stock of groceries? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a full stock bill of groceries. - -Mr. JENNER. Not only edibles, but things to apply in and about the home? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. About the house--the home; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were in your store, I take it then, for---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Several minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Several minutes? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. How far between then, I don't know; but from -then on, I would say 20 minutes before they checked out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for these goods? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How? With cash? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Cash. Yes, sir. There was only one other time when he -tried to cash a check. - -Mr. JENNER. And I'll get to that in a minute--but on this particular -occasion, it was cash. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was always cash. Yes, sir. He always paid -cash. - -Mr. JENNER. I am interested, Mr. Hutchison, in the older lady--the -older of the two ladies. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you give me any more--draw on your imagination and -see if---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was on the heavy side; I would say weight 160 -or 170 pounds, and short and dumpy. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall was she with respect to the gentleman and the -young lady? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was--she was, of course, not as tall as the -gentleman and maybe about the same height as the lady. - -Mr. JENNER. The young lady? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the young lady. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your judgment as to the young lady's height? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 5 feet 2-1/2 or 3. - -Mr. JENNER. Relatively short? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; relatively short--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the elderly lady was approximately that height as well? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; but dumpy. - -Mr. JENNER. Heavier set? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Heavier set; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you say was the weight of the younger lady? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 107 to 110. - -Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, then? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you this--was that a busy period of time, as you -recall? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, no. It wasn't too busy. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were afforded plenty of opportunity, were you, to -observe these people? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; yes. When I went around this aisle to hear this -foreign language, I looked at them and I could see them as plain as I'm -seeing you. I didn't go right down and just stare and look at them--but -my aisle is only 36 feet long and they were in the middle of the aisle. -So when I went around the aisle, I was within 15 feet of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, had the gentleman you're now describing been in--was -one of the occasions that he'd been in in the morning? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; before. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to this event? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And on these prior occasions when he was alone, did he ever -use a language which was other than English? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Mr. Jenner, he never said a word. He never spoke. I'd -always speak when he came in and always thank him when he went out. -And whatever the purchase was, you addressed the amount--like it was a -$1.04, a $1.16, a $1.12--he'd just put the money out or get the change -and walk right out the door. He never said a word. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't say hello, goodby, how are you, nice morning, -it's raining--nothing at all? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; nothing. He never said a word. - -Mr. JENNER. He came in, employing the self-service, picked up--let's -see, cinnamon rolls--you said? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. And milk. - -Mr. JENNER. And milk. And you, recognizing the cost of the sales price -of these items, he'd walk up to the counter, you would state _x_ -dollars or cents---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whatever the purchase was, he would hand you the change in -cash---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you would give him his change if it wasn't the exact -amount that he'd handed you. And he'd walk out without saying a word? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. He never said a word. That was odd. I began to notice -that after that happened a couple or three times. Most anyone will say, -"Thank you," or "Good morning," or something; but he never said a word. - -This is a friendly store, Mr. Jenner. It's not a cold store--like a -chainstore or anything like that. We don't change help and it's just -a--well, it's a neighborhood supermarket, is what it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I should bring this out; this is an independent store, -it's not a chainstore? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it's independent--not a chainstore. - -Mr. JENNER. And you're both the owner and the manager? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it's a neighborly neighborhood store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you say there was an occasion when he attempted to -cash a check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you first fix the date--I assume you can't -recall the exact date--but fix the month and the time of the month. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. It would be the first week in November. To the best of -my recollection, it was after this incident of the buying of the bill -of groceries. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And what time of day was that? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. It was in the afternoon, sir, between 5 and 6 -o'clock--because I'm in the cage. I have a check-cashing cage, and on -busy days I go into the cage and, naturally, I cash 90 percent of the -checks--especially the big checks. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, I think you've told me that you are in your -store on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Nights. - -Mr. JENNER. Nights? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are there during the day every day, also? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. I run my store. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you are in your store in the neighborhood of the 5 -o'clock period every day? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Every day; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what day of the week was this? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Friday. - -Mr. JENNER. Friday? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was around 5 or 5:30? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Between 5 and 6 o'clock, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, using your own words, describe the incident, -commencing giving the background. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, they line up to cash their checks. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were in the cage? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was in the cage. - -Mr. JENNER. And there were people lined up to cash checks? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; sometimes 8 to 10 line up--because we have -Ling Electric, we have Temco, and we have Chance Vought. We also -have General Motors people who live in Irving. And Friday is a big -check-cashing day. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. And I always step into the cage to cash checks and, -naturally, I know most people who come in. And this was a two-party -check. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. A two-party check means that it was not a payroll check, -but a personal check given to him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. And, as best as I can remember, it was $189--which is -strictly against our rules to cash. We don't cash any two-party checks -over $25. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. And so I just merely told him, "I'm sorry; I can't cash -this check." - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. If I call that a personal check--is that an apt -description? You call it a "two-party" check, meaning---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It's drawn by an individual and payable to an individual? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Right. That's right. An individual check payable to an -individual. - -Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from a payroll check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; as distinguished from a payroll check. - -Mr. JENNER. And your practice is to limit your risk on that type of -check to $25? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. $25; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that that check was in the amount -of $189? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. $189; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And he finally reached the wicket, or---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the cage. - -Mr. JENNER. He came to the head of the line, eventually? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then tell me what happened, as best you can recall. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, he put the check up there and, of course, that's -what everyone does. They put it up there and you look at the check and -you observe the check and you either make up your mind whether you're -going to cash it or not. But, of course, like I say, with the rule that -I have, there never was any doubt in my mind what I was going to do -with it. I just handed it back to him. I said, "I'm sorry. This is a -two-party check, and we don't cash this amount in a two party check. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about that? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a word. Not a word. He just looked at me and picked -up the check and got out of line and walked on out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any expression on his face that arrested your -attention? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he understood what you meant by a "two-party" -check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Why, I'm sure he must have because I specifically said -to him, "This is a two-party check and our rules and regulations are -that we don't cash this large a check--two-party check." - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't seem irritated? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he accepted your explanation? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not--let's see, you were in the -cage, but despite that, do you have any recollection as to whether he -purchased anything on that trip? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, because the cage is high enough that you -have to stand up to see across the store. It's not caged completely in -but there's a glass window---- - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't serve him anything. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. Sure didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the payee of the check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't. It just didn't enter -my mind, Mr. Jenner, after it was that amount. I wouldn't care who it -was, I wouldn't have cashed it because, like I say, I have my rules and -regulations and if I violate them, my help can violate them, too--so, I -just don't do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about the check--the form of the -check--other than it was a two-party check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. I couldn't tell you where it was -given and who wrote the check. All I looked at was--it was the amount. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection--do you know what a counter -check is? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I know what a counter check is. It was a -counter check. It wasn't a printed--it wasn't a personalized check. It -was a printed check. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm going to hand you one of my own personal checks -[handing to witness.] Now, that's what you call a printed personalized -check? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. That's a printed personalized check. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was not that form? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. This was just a counter check. They all have it -right here [indicating on check]--it's in the form of a draft on the -Dallas market here. You have the name of your bank in print--like this -bank is printed in here. [Indicating on check.] - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. But on a counter check, the bank is not imprinted? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. It just has your date and "Pay to the -Order of," and your signature here and, of course, they all have your -micronized letters--they all have that now because each bank puts them -out. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; but they do not appear on counter checks. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have explained, now you did not -make a mental note and you do not now have a recollection of the person -to whom this counter check was payable? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. On these mornings when he came in, these were occasions -when you were not too busy? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection at all--and if so, state the -extent of it--as to whether he arrived at your place of business in -some vehicle--automobile? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking. - -Mr. JENNER. Always walking? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking. Yes, sir. He was always walking. -Because, once or twice, I'd be sweeping the sidewalks--I sweep the -sidewalk every morning--and he'd be coming down the Storey side. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I was about to get to that. He was coming down -the Storey side--let's see if I can put it in my vernacular a little: -From what direction was he coming, normally, when you saw him? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. From north to south. - -Mr. JENNER. He was moving from the north to the south? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Which would be coming from the direction of the Paine home? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you notice the direction in which he went when he -departed your store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he just went right around the corner. See, -from my door there's only about 25 feet from the entrance of the door -to the corner of the building. My checking stand is on the, what you -would say, the west side of the building. He'd go out the door and just -go right around the corner. - -Mr. JENNER. And in what direction would he be moving then, after he -turned the corner? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. North. - -Mr. JENNER. And then what street would he be on? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That would be Storey, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So, he was retracing his steps? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; retracing his steps. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, on the occasion when these three people were in your -store on that evening, you're not able now to fix that occasion any -more definitely as to point of time than sometime between the 1st and -the--did you say the 15th of November? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Fifteenth of October, sir; to the 1st of--uh---- - -Mr. JENNER. November? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. November. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was not in the month of November? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having been interviewed by a -representative of the FBI---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On this occasion? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he questioned you about the incident of the evening---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And substantially the things that I am examining you about? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you give him, then, your very best recollection of -what you recalled at that time? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I sure did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -And this interview was shortly after the assassination? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The 3d of December, 1963? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. How much milk did he buy on these morning occasions? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. A gallon. - -Mr. JENNER. A whole gallon? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. A whole gallon of milk; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the Internal Revenue Service might be interested in -this: Tell me again, and with prices to the extent you can recall, what -his normal purchase was on the mornings that he came in. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, the milk sells for 79 a gallon and the cinnamon -rolls are 39. So, you see, that would be $1.18. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever buy any bread? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with any bills of large denomination? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a--well, I don't know; maybe -"large denomination," doesn't help us very much on these morning -occasions, did he ever hand you a $5 or a $10 bill? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; it was always a dollar and some change. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Either a dollar and a half or a dollar and a quarter--or -sometimes two dimes. He had almost the correct change. - -Mr. JENNER. Always? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. He was within a few cents--30 or 40 cents of his -purchase. - -Mr. JENNER. However, on the evening occasion, when they bought--what -expression did we use? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Full line of groceries? - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have bills on that occasion? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Sir, I didn't check him. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't check him? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I didn't check him; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't know, sir. I sure don't. - -Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that purchase would run somewhere -between $15 and $20? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; $15 and $20. - -Mr. JENNER. From that, you would conclude that he must have had some -bills larger than a dollar? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he would have had to have larger bills that -day. - -Mr. JENNER. Or else he would have had to have a number of dollar bills. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I failed to ask you what you thought his weight was. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say his weight was somewhere in the neighborhood -of 155 to 160. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to his dress in the sense of -neatness, cleanliness? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I wouldn't say he was dirty, but he was shabbily -dressed. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. He was shabbily dressed--cheap slacks, and like I -said, the jacket was cheap, and his shirts were always open, he never -had a tie, he wasn't what you would call neatly dressed. He always -looked--well, like just a common worker. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from all this that it was your impression that he -was a person of little means? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his neatness? Was he always shaven? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he was always shaven. - -Mr. JENNER. His hair neatly combed? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Hair cut and neatly combed; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't notice anything about, did you, that he -always needed a haircut or---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No; I would say that he was pretty well---- - -Mr. JENNER. In that respect, you would call him normal? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Normal; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Because, you know, I'd notice if a person doesn't have a -haircut. Naturally, I would on account of my help and everything like -that. I have to observe those things. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you able to describe Mrs. Paine to me? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she's an ordinary person--I mean---- - -Mr. JENNER. Physical characteristics, I mean, first. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Well, she's about 5 foot 4 and I'd say her -weight was around 122 and 124--I'd say between 115 and 125. Uh--she's -not a beautiful woman, but she's attractive. - -Mr. JENNER. What about her age? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, I'd say--uh--between 42 and 46 years of age. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Paine? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the first place, do you know that there is a Mr. Paine? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I sure don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the lady you have in mind does or does -not have children and if so---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whenever she was in your store did she have children with -her? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she was alone. - -Mr. JENNER. Always alone. When was the last time you saw this person -that you have in mind in your store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, I'd say in January---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of this year? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Of this year. Yes, sir. She's been in since---- - -Mr. JENNER. She may well have been in on other occasions---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, yes; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But the last time you recall her was in January? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. January. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you were never able to strike up any conversation -with this man, so---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't have told you he lived with her, or -anything. - -Mr. JENNER. All you know is that he was a person that came from that -direction? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. He came from the north and came in the store--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do recall distinctly that, from the occasion of the -assassination, you have never seen this man in your store? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir; I've never seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. And what arrested your attention in this regard was that -you saw a photograph of Marina Oswald published in one of the Dallas -papers? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And seeing that photograph, you noticed a resemblance -between the lady you had seen in your store the evening you've -described---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that particular photograph? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that's the only time I ever saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see, either published in the newspapers or -published in magazines somewhere or other, or on television, any -pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw them on television; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And tell us when you saw the television pictures that you -now have in mind. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw the television program on Sunday afternoon after -he was shot here. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the 24th of November 1963? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that's the first time I recognized that he had -been in my store. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized the man you saw on the television Sunday -afternoon? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the man who had come in your store of a morning? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I remarked to my wife the minute I saw it. I -was working when he was shot in the morning. I didn't see the actual--I -didn't see the--but they rerun it that Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw the rerun that Sunday afternoon? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. I told my wife then, I said, "That fellow has -traded--"--and I related to her what I told you, just casually. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen the newspaper picture of the lady, Marina -Oswald, prior to the time you saw the television rerun on Sunday -afternoon? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; that was later. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Hutchison, is there anything that occurs to -you now that I haven't brought out that you think might be helpful to -the Commission in this important work of the Commission? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. That you know? Any facts? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I'd be happy to tell you because---- - -Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you would. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm certainly a person who wants to help in every -way--in any way. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I have no further questions. - -It's your privilege, Mr. Hutchison, to read over your deposition as -soon as it is transcribed if you desire to do so. And this nice young -lady will have this transcribed so it may be read, oh, let us say, -Tuesday of next week. And if you wish to do so, you may come in and -read it, and if you think there is anything in the deposition---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is incorrectly reported, why we'd like to have you -advise us of that. Or you may waive all this procedure as you see fit. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. I can waive it right now, Mr. Jenner. I have no---- - -Mr. JENNER. Then, you would like to waive it? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir, yes, sir; I'd be glad to, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I might add--when you were interviewed on the 3d of -December---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is some months ago, to the best of your recollection -did you report to the FBI agent, who was Mr. Berry--do you recall that -name? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; Mr. Berry was the man that came out--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was then your recollection that the time that -Oswald--the man you recognized as Oswald--tendered the check for -cashing was November 8--that is, you used the expression, "Three weeks -ago?" - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that would pinpoint it closer. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection now---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As to the time it was? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that on that occasion, that interview, that -you told Mr. Berry that the occasion when the elderly lady, the young -lady, and Oswald were in your store--that's an evening? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall the incident? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That it was on Wednesday evening November 13, 1963, rather -than in October--between the 15th and the 1st of November, as you've -testified today? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. [Pausing before reply.] Mr. Jenner, the best--it was -before the check cashing. - -Mr. JENNER. Incident? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was before that. Yes, sir; because he tried -to cash the check after he'd bought the bill of groceries. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you fixed the time of day as the same. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And according to the report I have--and all I have is the -report---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You fixed the date as November 13. But, now, that you've -been able to reflect further about it. This check-cashing incident as -related to the time when the three of them were in---- - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; was before. - -Mr. JENNER. Was before rather than after? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that's all--no--one other thing I'd like to say -to you. We did have a little bit of conversation before we started -your deposition and we've been off the record once or twice--is there -anything that I discussed with you while we were off the record or -before your testimony began that you think is pertinent that I have -failed to bring out? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during that time that you -told me that you think is inconsistent with any of the testimony you -have given--and which I failed to bring out? - -Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I think it's very full on everything I know. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We're sorry to have -inconvenienced you but we very much appreciate your help. - -Mr. HUTCHISON. That's all right--it's perfectly all right. That's just -something that everybody should do if they're good Americans. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FRANK PIZZO - -The testimony of Frank Pizzo was taken at 3:35 p.m., on March 31, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant -attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, would you stand up and be sworn? - -Mr. PIZZO. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about -to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth? - -Mr. PIZZO. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the -legal staff of the President's Commission. You received a letter from -Mr. Rankin, the general counsel, or did you? - -Mr. PIZZO. No, I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Then, I'll tell you about it. The Commission -to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy was appointed -by President Johnson under Executive Order 11130, which in turn -was pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress, -and the Commission was authorized and appointed for the purpose of -investigating the assassination of the late President, John F. Kennedy, -on the 22d of November, 1963, and to report all the facts that are -pertinent to that tragic event that we can discover. - -We are particularly interested in persons who did or might have had -some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, and it is our -understanding that you may have some information in that area and in -the course of conducting your business back in the fall of 1963, and -pursuant to my telephone call to you this morning, you have kindly come -down here, voluntarily, have you? - -Mr. PIZZO. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI, haven't -you? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, I know you are busy as it is particularly busy at the -end of the month in your business, and I'll see if I can't expedite -this. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; I am a native of Providence, R.I. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Dallas? - -Mr. PIZZO. Around May 15 in 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Take me back, say, to 1960--about yourself, or start with -1960; what were you doing then? - -Mr. PIZZO. Well, in 1960, I was in the automobile business in -Providence, R.I., with my own company. - -Mr. JENNER. Automobile sales business? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, used cars--Auto Village, Inc., in Providence, R.I. We -came here in, let's see, February of 1963--we came to Lufkin. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "we," you mean you, your wife, and your family? - -Mr. PIZZO. My wife and my child, a 5-year-old boy. We came to Lufkin, -Tex. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex.? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, and we came down here to open up a business, which we -did. We opened a business in Lufkin--she opened a beauty shop and I -opened a used-car lot, and we were there a couple or 3 months and I -came to Dallas to buy cars and I went to McAllister Lincoln-Mercury, -who is now my boss, and owns Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth, and while I -was there trying to buy cars, I wound up coming to work for him. - -Mr. JENNER. And the McAllister agency is located in downtown Dallas? - -Mr. PIZZO. It is Downtown Lincoln-Mercury--it used to be McAllister -Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. JENNER. And now it is called Downtown Lincoln-Mercury? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. JENNER. Has that been a recent change in name? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, it has. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm just curious, because I tried to find it in the phone -book this morning and I couldn't find Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right, it has been--let's see, we changed the -name--the name was changed just before the assassination. You see, -it's a factory franchise dealership and they changed it to Downtown -Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. JENNER. I was looking in a May 1963, directory. - -Mr. PIZZO. That's it. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be McAllister Lincoln-Mercury at that time? - -Mr. PIZZO. When I went to work at that time--yes. Now, I stayed on when -Mr. McAllister went on to Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth and I stayed on as -assistant manager at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. We were working actually -for the factory, because they were running the store--they had no -president. - -Mr. JENNER. In which of the two agencies do you now work as of today? - -Mr. PIZZO. Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are what position there? - -Mr. PIZZO. Sales manager. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were what position--what position did you have with -McAllister? - -Mr. PIZZO. You mean at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury or McAllister? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIZZO. Assistant manager. - -Mr. JENNER. You were assistant manager? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that work commence--when did you start to work -with McAllister? - -Mr. PIZZO. Around the 14th or 15th of May. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an employee under your supervision and -direction at that time by the name of Bogard? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his full name? - -Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard. - -Mr. JENNER. Albert G. Bogard? - -Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard, that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And has he also worked over at the Hamilton agency? - -Mr. PIZZO. No, sir; he came from Ed Maher Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. That's M-a-h-e-r (spelling)? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes--two words. When he applied for the job, he was working -at Maher's. - -Mr. JENNER. Some of these salesmen are inclined to shift about, I guess? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes--if they like the looks of a car this year--it might -look a little better on this make of car, and you know, to them, it is -all money, and they are going to move around, but a real good person -will stay. He will stay in one place and build up a clientele. - -Mr. JENNER. With repeat sales? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. These boys--most of them live on floor traffic. - -Mr. JENNER. They wait for people to come in? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; they are not real working automobile salesmen. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, I'll summarize--you are a native-born -American and a native of Rhode Island, Providence? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir; and I served in the U.S. Marine Corps in World War -II. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business in Providence and you -and your wife in due course came here to Dallas and she is a native of -Texas, as you recited? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business there, and what was -that town again? - -Mr. PIZZO. Lufkin. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it? - -Mr. PIZZO. L-u-f-k-i-n (spelling). - -Mr. JENNER. And then you became associated with Downtown -Lincoln-Mercury? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In May of 1963? Was there an incident that occurred -sometime in 1963, but prior to November 22, 1963, involving somebody -who might have been Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; there was an incident. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about the incident, first, and then we -will become oriented? - -Mr. PIZZO. All right--of course, at the time nothing was thought of -the incident because it was just a natural sales setup we had. Our -salesmen, when they can't sell a customer a car, they run to the -manager and tell him, they'll say, "He's going to leave." - -Mr. JENNER. And that manager in this instance was you? - -Mr. PIZZO. It was me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIZZO. And, I asked to see the man--no, I didn't ask to see him -personally--no, I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was the salesman? - -Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard. - -Mr. JENNER. The man we have identified here? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right, sir. He brought the man to me--it was quite -late in the evening--it wasn't evening, because it was dark. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what day of the week it was? - -Mr. PIZZO. I really don't--really don't. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a weekday? - -Mr. PIZZO. It was a weekday. - -Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; we are not open on Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you open on Saturday? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It could have been any day in the week? - -Mr. PIZZO. It could have been--it seems to me like it was the middle of -the week, towards the weekend, but I couldn't swear to that. - -Mr. JENNER. What month was it? - -Mr. PIZZO. It was November--now. - -Mr. JENNER. November 1963? - -Mr. PIZZO. November 1963--yes; I'm pretty sure it was November. Now, -that I can recollect--it was November. When he brought the man to me, -he said, "This man will have some money. He doesn't have the down -payment," because when we were trying to sell the man a car, he asked -me how much money he needed to buy this car and I said, "That man needs -around $200 or $300." - -Mr. JENNER. This is Bogard asking you? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; the salesman asking me. He asked me that and I said it -was around $200 or $300, and so he went back to his booth to work on -the customer. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, at this point, you had not yet seen the customer? - -Mr. PIZZO. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Bogard had come to you as assistant sales manager, -to find out the minimum, let us say, of the down payment? - -Mr. PIZZO. Of the down payment. - -Mr. JENNER. And he had a man who was interested in what make of car? - -Mr. PIZZO. Now, that's something that I do not remember because there -was no writeup sheet that I could go back to to find out exactly what -car. I believe it was a Comet. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you made an effort to find a writeup sheet? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; we did--all of us did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you discovered what? - -Mr. PIZZO. I discovered nothing--no writeup sheet, but the incident -that happened later--I'll get to it, if you want me to get to it now, -I'll go to it now. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I think probably the best thing for you to do -would be for you to tell us in your own words, and I'll try not to -interrupt you. - -Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir. He brought the customer to me, but previous -to that he had taken the customer out on a demonstration ride. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, this occurred at McAllister Downtown Lincoln -Mercury? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's correct. I think it's better if we do call it -that--Downtown McAllister Lincoln Mercury, because the exact day of the -change of the name, I don't remember, you see. - -Now, this was previous to the assassination--I would say between a -period of a week and a half to 2 weeks, and I would guess I would be -right. After the man was worked on to buy a car---- - -Mr. JENNER. By Bogard. - -Mr. PIZZO. By Bogard, Mr. Bogard brought the man to my office and I'm -sitting like you are and he brought him to the door. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the same day? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; this was within 2 hours, within a period of 2 hours. - -Mr. JENNER. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours. - -Mr. PIZZO. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours and he brought -the man to the door. - -Mr. JENNER. What door? - -Mr. PIZZO. My office door, and I get up from behind my desk and walk -up to the door, and he says, "He doesn't have the down payment, but he -will have $200 or $300 in a couple or 3 weeks." - -Mr. JENNER. And this conversation you are now relating occurred after -Bogard had demonstrated the car? - -Mr. PIZZO. Had demonstrated the car. - -Mr. JENNER. And had come to you and asked for the minimum? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; for the minimum. - -Mr. JENNER. And then he had gone back to the customer? - -Mr. PIZZO. And the customer told him he didn't have the down payment. - -Mr. JENNER. And then he brought the customer to the door of the office? - -Mr. PIZZO. Right. So, it was just 2 or 3 minutes--I was very busy, we -had other deals going, and I said, "Okay," and just let it go at that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did that mean--"okay"? - -Mr. PIZZO. There was nothing we could do with the customer if he -didn't have the down payment. I said, "Okay," to Al Bogard, which -means--follow him up, use him as a prospect, call him later--that's -what we do, we call a man later and try to work something out and this -is strictly automobile business. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that; yes. - -Mr. PIZZO. Now, what else do you want to know now? What happened later? - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now completed relating the incident on the -particular date you have in mind? - -Mr. PIZZO. On that day; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection at the moment is that Bogard was -seeking to interest him in a Comet? - -Mr. PIZZO. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the Ford compact, is it not? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; that's the Mercury compact. The Caliente--we had a red -Caliente, I believe, and I believe it was a red Caliente he went for a -ride in, not that he was selling that particular car, but we had just -gotten the new line of the hot compact, which was the Caliente, and we -bought them all in red and that's what he went for a ride in. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say "hot" or "hard"? - -Mr. PIZZO. Hot--Caliente means hot, and that was the hot model of the -year--it had just come out. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a little bit of New England accent or Rhode Island -or the Boston area? - -Mr. PIZZO. You can't miss it--you can't hide it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you volunteered there a second that the man had taken -a ride in the Comet Caliente? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that statement? - -Mr. PIZZO. On what Al Bogard told me, that that was the car he had -taken him for a ride in. - -Mr. JENNER. You had not seen this man in the car? - -Mr. PIZZO. In the car or drive off either. - -May I tell you the normal procedure that every salesman follows? He -talks to the customer, gets him interested in a car, takes him out for -a ride and puts him in a booth to see if he can sell him a car, and -that's the routine he followed. - -Mr. JENNER. And this first stage of taking him for a ride, the salesman -drives the car rather than the customer? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's the way it should be. - -Mr. JENNER. And if the normal procedure were followed here, the -prospect would have been taken for a ride by Mr. Bogard? - -Mr. PIZZO. If it was followed, but according to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, if it were followed? - -Mr. PIZZO. If it was followed--he drives the customer to a point and -lets the customer drive it back. But the only way to demonstrate an -automobile is that. You drive it and demonstrate it as you are driving -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, since you weren't present at this point we are relying -on normal procedures. - -Mr. PIZZO. Right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And a remark made by Mr. Bogard that the customer, whoever -he was, had been taken for a demonstration ride by Bogard? - -Mr. PIZZO. By Bogard. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now stated everything that occurred that -particular day, occurred or said to you on that particular day? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; I can't remember anything else. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a subsequent incident or something that -occurred with respect to the incident you have now related, is there a -second stage of this? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when after the assassination? - -Mr. PIZZO. The same day--within, oh, 4 or 5 o'clock or something like -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the--late in the day on the 22d of November? - -Mr. PIZZO. When this man was captured, and the name announced over the -radio, the possible suspect, or the suspect's name was announced on the -radio, we had all radios on in the showroom. - -Mr. JENNER. You had your radios and television on? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; just radios. - -Mr. JENNER. Just radio? - -Mr. PIZZO. Well, we had the television set up in the Continental -Department that we were all watching. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you say "all," does that include Mr. Bogard? - -Mr. PIZZO. That includes Mr. Bogard. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, relate what happened--you were all sitting -around looking at the television, were you? - -Mr. PIZZO. I wasn't--I was standing around listening to the radio. -We were all in just different groups--this is a mighty big showroom, -Downtown Lincoln-Mercury, it is 350 feet long, and we were sitting -around listening to the news and also doing the work that had to be -done, and when the suspect's name was announced, I was standing right -in the middle of the showroom floor and---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is this great big showroom--the 350-foot long showroom? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but right in front of my office is where the group was -standing, because that's a front door and there are three front doors, -but this is the first front door, and we were standing right there. Of -course, all of us were looking out at the underpass, which we are right -under, the triple underpass there. - -Mr. JENNER. Near the area of the assassination scene? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right, sir; we are on this side--the Oak Cliff side -of the bridge, and, of course, we were all standing at the big windows -looking at that area and listening to the radio and a remark was made, -"Well," now, I didn't hear this. It was told to me just a few minutes -later. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom? - -Mr. PIZZO. By some salesman there and I just can't remember which one -it was. I think we had around 15 or 16 salesmen there at the time. We -weren't all standing around, but someone made the remark that, "Al -Bogard lost his prospect." - -Mr. JENNER. You overheard that? - -Mr. PIZZO. I overheard that. I said, "What do you mean?" They said, -"Well--" he pulled out a card, his own business card like this -[indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. Your salesman did? - -Mr. PIZZO. Albert Bogard--this salesman made the remark that Al Bogard -had pulled out a business card and written behind the business card--a -lot of salesmen will do that--they will write down names of prospects -on the card and if they don't have a piece of paper, they will just -pull out one of their cards and write the names down, and he said, -"Well, there goes my prospect," when he heard the name Lee Harvey -Oswald, so he dumped it in the wastebasket. - -Now, I didn't know about this until a few minutes later and I didn't -make much of it at that time. That was it--at that time. I didn't know -that that was a custom he had--a week or two before it just--nothing -never entered my mind, we were all pretty saddened by the thing, and -that was it for that day. Let's see, I believe, was that a Friday or -Saturday? - -Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. - -Mr. PIZZO. It was on a Friday--I want to tell it to you as correct as I -can, that's why I'm wondering. - -One of the boys said the next day that he had lost his customer and the -guy that they have got is the man that Bogard has as a prospect, so I -says, "Let's look--where is the writeup?" The first thing that I had in -my mind was--get the writeup, so everyone was looking for the writeup. -By now Bogard wasn't there, I think it was after lunch or breakfast, -so we went through the drawers, and we went through the baskets and I -called the two porters we have in the garage--called them in there and -I said, "Who dumped the baskets out last night," and one fellow said, -"I did." I said, "Where?" We have a trash barrel--not a barrel, but -it's a huge incinerator and the trash men come by and pick it up, and -so we went back there and I jumped inside this thing--that's how big -it is and started throwing out the papers, looking for some kind of a -writeup, and never could find anything. I just wanted the writeup to -see if he did have a writeup, but by that time Bogard came back and I -asked him, I said, "Al, have you got a writeup on that man, the man -that they have got locked up?" He said, "Yes," and I said, "Where is -it?" He said, "Well, it's not a writeup--I've got it on a card and I -just took it and threw it down in the basket." - -Mr. JENNER. The day before? - -Mr. PIZZO. The day before. I said, "Well, where is it now?" He said, "I -don't know." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you look through the refuse container to try to find -that card? - -Mr. PIZZO. We looked for the card to--we went right back again and did -the same thing, and he helped look for it and we had the colored boy -there helping us looking for it and then when some FBI men came there -they went in there and looked for it. - -Mr. JENNER. We became very interested in that. - -Mr. PIZZO. Me too. So, I kind of said, "Are you kidding us or what? You -either have his name or you don't." He said, "Well, Frank, don't you -remember?" I said, "I don't remember." He said, "I brought him to your -office and you said he needed $200 or $300 down," and I said, "Yes, I -guess I remember." He said, "Well, you should remember because when I -took that man for a ride he drove like a wild man, and besides we had -Gene Wilson's car and Gene got mad because we used up all his gas." He -said, "He drove so fast, he scared the daylights out of me. Don't you -remember me coming back and saying how mad I was?" - -I said, "I just don't remember that particular moment." That's how he -was trying to get me to remember that particular time when he took him -for a ride. I said, "I just really don't remember that night--that much -of it." - -Now, I'll tell you how I think I recognized the man--this was after -they had him on television and they showed him on television which was -Monday or Tuesday or something like that--it was a few days after. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean a rerun? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; of the Oswalds--when they showed him on television--the -first pictures of him on television, I saw that. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall what day that was? - -Mr. PIZZO. It was past a weekend. It was not Saturday--it might have -been Sunday and probably it was Monday, but it wasn't Friday or -Saturday, and I'm not sure it was Sunday, but I think it was on a -Monday, and of course--the seed planted--I got to thinking about it and -I looked at him and he looked familiar to me, and at that time I could -have sworn it was him, because I remember a man in a T-shirt. I don't -mean the open T-shirt but a full T-shirt. - -Mr. JENNER. Like the kind you wore in the Marines? - -Mr. PIZZO. Well, it wasn't green, but that type--the full T-shirt with -a sleeve. - -Mr. JENNER. About a half sleeve? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his face. And he just looked the type. He just -looked like the type of guy that I was talking to that day, and when I -came back to work the next day, of course we were all in there talking -about it, and we talked about different incidences that reminded me of -him. I only had a few seconds look at the man. He never said a word. I -never heard him talk. - -Mr. JENNER. The customer never said a word? - -Mr. PIZZO. The customer never said a word--whether it would be him or -not--but to me, it looked like it was, only from the pictures. - -Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 -through 456 and ask you to examine them. - -Does the man depicted there bear a resemblance to what you might -possibly recall as the prospective customer you now have in mind? - -Mr. PIZZO. [Examining photographs referred to.] It wouldn't be fair -to say this one, because I think this was in the television or the -newspaper with a fat lip--I remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo has refused Commission Exhibit 455. - -Mr. PIZZO. Possibly these two. - -Mr. JENNER. It might possibly be Commission Exhibit 453 or 451? - -Mr. PIZZO. And I will refuse these two. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness also refused Commission Exhibits Nos. 454 and -456. - -Mr. PIZZO. I'm not too positive on these, either. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is uncertain even as to Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 -and 451. - -(An instrument is marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Showing you that exhibit, do you see any person depicted -on that exhibit that resembles or is the prospective customer that was -brought to your office door by Mr. Bogard on the day you have testified -about? - -Mr. PIZZO. One of these two men seems like it. This one--it seems like -it because his nose is too big--one of these two here. - -Mr. JENNER. Using this green marker, will you put an "X" on the two men? - -Mr. PIZZO. I am not positive. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course you are not positive. - -Mr. PIZZO. Do you want me to put it right here? - -Mr. JENNER. Let's pick out the two that most closely resemble the man -of which you speak. - -Mr. PIZZO. [Witness at this point marked instrument referred to.] - -Mr. JENNER. Now, which of those two that you marked with the little -green mark most closely resembles the man you saw? - -Mr. PIZZO. Right here--but he seems older here--he was a little short -guy, the way I figure. - -Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" above him. The witness has put a cross--a -horizontal cross line, through the other line as indicating the man -who appears most like the person he saw. Your feeling is that the man -you have indicated with an "X" seems somewhat taller than the man you -recall as having seen at the door of your office prior to November 22, -1963. Is that correct, sir? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--about 5 feet 8 inches, something like that, -what I recall--or maybe 5 feet 8-1/2 inches. Bogard is pretty tall and -it seemed like the fellow was a lot shorter than he was. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's what led you to put the marker over the head of -the man on the extreme right shown in that picture, Pizzo Exhibit 453-A? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes--that's right--it's a downhill photo. - -Mr. JENNER. I have one that's taken more at a level. We will mark it -Pizzo Exhibit 453-B. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No. -453-B, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting that photograph, does there appear on it anybody -who closely resembles the person you recall as having been at the door -of your office on the occasion you have described, and if there is, put -a mark on it. - -Mr. PIZZO. Gosh, the man I saw--I want you to know--didn't have that -much hair, nor did he have as much hair as these boys in this picture. - -Mr. JENNER. The man you saw did not have as much hair as is shown on -Pizzo Commission Exhibit 453-A, which you have marked with a cross? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right, nor as this picture right here--right there. - -Mr. JENNER. Or the man on Pizzo Exhibit 453-B--appears to have more -hair than the man you saw at the door of your office? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the men depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and -451 also, in each instance, has more hair than the man you saw at the -door of your office? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the man over whose head you placed a cross on -Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, that is, in respect to the amount of hair? - -Mr. PIZZO. This is more or less the hairline. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the witness is pointing to the man over where there is -a single vertical stripe, over his head--green, and has dark glasses -on. It is his hairline to which you have now adverted? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the other man has the cross over his head--you wanted -to say something about that? - -Mr. PIZZO. You said it exactly--that resembles--the face resembles him -more than the hairline--it's sort of a "=V=" hairline. - -Mr. JENNER. So, your problem has been that the hairline and the man -with the single stripe above his head more resembles him than the man -you saw at the door of your office, but the physiognomy or the facial -features of the man over whose head you have placed the cross more -resembles the man you saw? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. I had just wondered if the pictures that I have seen of -Oswald might have---- - -Mr. JENNER. Might have colored your judgment now? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It's always possible, you know. - -Mr. PIZZO. But that hairline is a thing--that's the thing that hit me -first when I saw his picture on television. - -Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald's picture on television? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and in the paper. It was the hairline and the physical -features of it--a clean face with the high forehead and the "=V=" -shaped hairline, and it's easy to remember that because of the T-shirt, -the bare look he had because of the tight T-shirt. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis has come in and he is representing the attorney -general's office of the State of Texas. This is Mr. Robert Davis. They -are conducting a court of inquiry on this subject. - -Mr. PIZZO. I see, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, the witness has just emphasized the thing he -recalls most about the appearance or physiognomy of the man he saw at -the door of his office a week or 10 days prior to November 22 when one -of the employees he was supervising, Mr. Bogard, brought a prospective -customer who seemed to be interested in a Comet Caliente, Mr. Pizzo was -then the general sales manager of McAllister Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. PIZZO. I was assistant sales manager. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now the sales manager? - -Mr. PIZZO. I--of Hamilton Chrysler. - -Mr. JENNER. I have shown him some photographs. He was impressed, he -said, that the man he now recalls having seen on the occasion--he was -impressed particularly with his hairline. - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that the hairline of the man indicated on Pizzo -Exhibit 453-A, over whose head he has put the green vertical stripe, -has the hairline, but the man over whose head he has placed the cross -has more of the facial likeness. - -The person or persons depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451, -he says have a resemblance, but it is in his opinion not the man, and -in any event the man on those two exhibits has more hair and does not -have the particular hairline that impressed you on this occasion? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I fairly stating your testimony? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to summarize for Mr. Davis. - -Mr. PIZZO. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I now show you a document we will mark as Pizzo Exhibit -453-C. - -(The instrument referred to was marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit -No. 453-C, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. This is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that I'm about to -show you and before I show it to you, may I say that the important -thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment, -and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself -back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man -at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if -it is--tell us, one way or the other. - -Mr. PIZZO. All right. That I will do. [Examining instrument referred -to.] - -Mr. JENNER. The greatest service you can give to us and to the country -and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can. - -Mr. PIZZO. He certainly don't have the hairline I was describing--it -isn't the hairline I was describing. - -Mr. JENNER. This was taken the afternoon of November 22 in the Dallas -City Police showup. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Counsel Davis and the witness, -Mr. Pizzo, off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. You recall him as being more in the -neighborhood of what--5 feet 8 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, more or less, -or more or less? - -Mr. PIZZO. Between 5 feet 7 inches and 5 foot 8-1/2 inches with sort of -a round forehead and that =V= shape is the thing that I remember the -most. - -Mr. JENNER. A widow's peak? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but very weak. - -Mr. JENNER. Very weak? - -Mr. PIZZO. Very weak--not the bushy type that I see in the picture. -Well, if I'm not sure--then--I have to say that he is not the one--if -you want the absolute statement. - -Mr. JENNER. I just want your best judgment--I don't want you to say he -isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. It is -better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving -us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for -in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. Now, -you don't find the hairline? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't. From that picture I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; from any of the three pictures, except the one with -the man with the stripe over his head? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's right--he has the sort of a hairline that I recollect. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the man with the one stripe over his head? - -Mr. PIZZO. I'll have to take a look again--this is the face--it -resembles. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is now pointing to the man that has the cross -over it. - -Mr. PIZZO. This is the hairline that I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the man on the extreme right with the dark glasses, -having a single vertical stripe above his head? - -Mr. PIZZO. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that picture of Mr. Oswald that I showed the witness, -Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, in that picture, he does not have the hairline; is -that correct? - -Mr. PIZZO. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his facial expression--features? - -Mr. PIZZO. There's resemblance there. May I say something? - -Mr. JENNER. Surely. - -Mr. PIZZO. All the time that I have been thinking about it--because -the FBI did tell me that they would call me sometime later and would I -appear, and I said--yes, I would. I thought about it and the thing that -stuck in my mind was always that hairline--the kind of balding right -here--the smooth line. - -Mr. JENNER. Above each temple? - -Mr. PIZZO. And that face resembles. Now, I'll tell you, if he has--I've -never seen the man in person, but if he has a small mouth it would fit -about the description that I would give. I couldn't say absolutely sure -that this was the man that was standing in front of my door. - -Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now referring to Pizzo Exhibit 453-C. I -offer Pizzo Exhibits 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C in evidence. - -Mr. PIZZO. May I say something else? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please. - -Mr. PIZZO. I have called Al Bogard into the office after the first -interview by the FBI, and I have asked him--I says, "Now, it is easy -for me to start imagining things because of the emotional situation -right now, Al. I want you to tell me the truth. Am I right when I say -I do remember that situation?" He says, "Yes," and then he went into -some more detail--"of course, don't you remember?" I didn't only ask -him once, I asked him again a week later, and he said the same thing -and that might have had some influence on it. Now, whether that's the -man he brought to my door--right now looking at that picture I couldn't -swear to it--I wouldn't want to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a fair type of an appraisal that we want. We -want your best judgment. You don't recall the incident that Bogard -related to you later that sought to stimulate your recollection about -somebody who drove this automobile wildly--you don't recall that having -been said to you on the afternoon? - -Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't--no; I don't. I asked him about it and he told -me. I'm the one that was after him to tell me--to help me remember. -You see, I'm the one that kept asking him about, "Would you help me -remember the situation." The more he talked about it, the more I -remember that particular situation, but only to the point of "He needs -$200 or $300," and he didn't have it at the time but he will have it in -a couple of weeks. That's the things that I do remember at the door. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do remember this man had a white T-shirt on--the -half-sleeve type? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. Sleeve type. - -Mr. JENNER. With which you are familiar and wore yourself in the -Marines except yours was colored green? - -Mr. PIZZO. It was green--that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, he has already related to us the effort he made -when this incident came to his attention late in the day on the 22d of -November of seeking to find Bogard's card on which he is alleged to -have written Oswald's name on the reverse side and was to attempt to -obtain a writeup sheet, which is what the salesmen normally write up -with respect to a prospect, even to the extent of his climbing into the -large refuse container in which all paper and waste paper baskets are -thrown the following day, and he was not able to find either of those, -though they made two examinations and emptied out the large container -twice--you did it yourself? - -Mr. PIZZO. I did it myself and once with the FBI. I believe it was the -man from Louisiana--one of the FBI men. - -Mr. JENNER. You were interviewed by Carter Hayden and Griffin on -January 8, was it either one of those? On January 8, 1964? - -Mr. PIZZO. I was interviewed by two pairs of FBI men--it was -immediately after the assassination, which was probably Monday or -Tuesday. - -Mr. JENNER. The first time? - -Mr. PIZZO. The first time; but it wasn't January 8. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the last one--the last interview--January 8? - -Mr. PIZZO. This might have been the last one, although I remember two -other men came in from Chicago--one was from Chicago--one--I believe -there were three, no, I'm sorry, it was the same two twice and then -another team. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I ask you this--knowing Mr. Bogard as you do, is he -a man who on occasion departed from his usual practice of making out a -prospect sheet? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He sometimes departed from that practice? - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; he would write them on just about anything--especially -business cards and put them in his desk. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though, as you recall, he had this man at the -customer's booth, where there would be a supply of these writeup -sheets, I assume? - -Mr. PIZZO. He would ordinarily write the man up after the demonstration -ride. - -Mr. JENNER. He would not? - -Mr. PIZZO. He would--he would ordinarily bring the man in and write -him up after a demonstration ride if you can sell him a car. We never -did find a writeup sheet--he said he never had one and he said he just -wrote the prospect's name on the back of a card and I asked him, "How -come, you usually write the thing on an order pad?" And we tried to -work from there, and he said, "I just didn't." - -Mr. JENNER. I have attempted to locate Mr. Bogard, just by calling -around this morning, but I haven't been able to run him down yet. If -you get any lead on where I might reach him, I would appreciate your -telling me. I don't mean to suggest that he is trying to escape or -anything, but quite the contrary. I just haven't been able to reach him. - -Mr. PIZZO. He's working around here somewhere. I believe, according -to his application when he gave it to me, he was a sales manager in -Louisiana and he owned a liquor store. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he was the owner of the Bent Elbow, wherever that is, -here. - -Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his name isn't used--one of the salesmen sold him -the place, the salesman that's still working there sold him the place. -I guess he wanted out from under it and just found Bogard to do so, and -when Bogard was bound to own a beer place, my boss immediately fired -him. He won't have it. You cannot have outside interests with a dealer -development company because factory and dealer development won't stand -for it. You have to work primarily for the dealership, and he was fired -for that and many other reasons, little reasons that, believe me, have -no concern with this. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions for Mr. Pizzo? - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, we appreciate very much your coming in and I -know it was of considerable inconvenience at the month end and you have -a lot of salesmen who want their money or pay. - -Mr. PIZZO. I told my boss today--he says, "Do you have to go?" I said, -"I have to go, but really, if I wasn't so patriotic, they would have to -come after me, I told him." - -Mr. JENNER. We appreciate it very much. You have a right, Mr. Pizzo, to -read over your deposition if you wish and to sign it--this deposition I -have taken of you, and if you care to exercise that right and make any -corrections you wish, Miss Oliver will have this probably near the end -of the week and you can call in and ask Mr. Sanders, the U.S. attorney, -or for one of us if we are around--they will refer you to us anyhow, or -you have a right to waive that, as you see fit. It is a privilege you -may exercise if you wish to. - -Mr. PIZZO. You mean what I have said here today? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIZZO. I believe everything I have said today--I will be glad to -sign it. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have to--it is entirely up to you, if you see fit. - -Mr. PIZZO. When would I get this deposition? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it will be ready for you to read--Miss Oliver will -have it toward the end of the week. - -Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. If you will call in, she can tell you if it is ready and -advise you if it isn't ready and then when it will be ready. - -Mr. PIZZO. Well, I wish you gentlemen a lot of luck. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ALBERT GUY BOGARD - -The testimony of Albert Guy Bogard was taken at 11:05 a.m., on April -8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BOGARD. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please. - -Mr. BOGARD. Albert Guy Bogard. - -Mr. BALL. And your address? - -Mr. BOGARD. 304 Brighton Street. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BOGARD. Sales manager for L & L Vending Co. - -Mr. BALL. What do you sell? - -Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines. - -Mr. BALL. Vending machines. What kind of vending machines? - -Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines. Cigarette machines. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, vending. Oh, I see. I couldn't understand your Texas -dialect. That is the--I understand now. Vending. - -Mr. BOGARD. I have sinus trouble. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, you have? Let me see. Where were you born and raised? - -Mr. BOGARD. Born in Cowshatta, La. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. BOGARD. Hall Summit, La. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school, sir? - -Mr. BOGARD. Finished. Eleventh grade. - -Mr. BALL. Eleventh grade? And what occupation did you pursue after that? - -Mr. BOGARD. U.S. Navy. - -Mr. BALL. How long? - -Mr. BOGARD. Four years and two months and three days, I think, to be -exact. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? What did you do after that? - -Mr. BOGARD. I started selling automobiles. - -Mr. BALL. Did you sell automobiles from then on until---- - -Mr. BOGARD. Then on until just recently. - -Mr. BALL. I see. When did you take this job you are on now? - -Mr. BOGARD. January. - -Mr. BALL. Of 1964? - -Mr. BOGARD. 1964; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you work for last fall, 1963? - -Mr. BOGARD. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, 118 East Commerce, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Shortly after the death of President Kennedy you notified the -FBI, didn't you? - -Mr. BOGARD. I did not notify the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notify someone that you had information? - -Mr. BOGARD. Was the other salesman notified the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. Who was he? - -Mr. BOGARD. I forget the name. - -Mr. BALL. But he notified the FBI that you had some information? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did some special agent from the Federal Bureau of -Investigation come and call on you? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; several times. - -Mr. BALL. And took a statement from you? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I took a lie detector test. - -Mr. BALL. You told him about an incident which occurred sometime before? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; week before. - -Mr. BALL. Just 1 week before? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; just one--one week before--two weeks before. - -Mr. BALL. About what date? Do you remember? - -Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact. - -Mr. BALL. 1963? - -Mr. BOGARD. 1963. - -Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that? - -Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon? - -Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. About what time? - -Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving -town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was -in a hurry. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me just what happened there? Tell me the incident that -you remember and that you related to the Federal---- - -Mr. BOGARD. A gentleman walked in the door and walked up and introduced -himself to me, and tells me he wants to look at a car. I show him a car -on the showroom floor, and take him for a ride out Stemmons Expressway -and back, and he was driving at 60 to 70 miles an hour and came back to -the showroom. And I made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't -ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or 3 weeks, that he had some -money coming in. And when he finally started to leave I got his name -and wrote it on the back of one of my business cards, and never heard -from the man any more. And the day that the President was shot, when I -heard that--they had the radio on in the showroom, and when I heard the -name, that he had shot a policeman over in Oak Cliff, I pulled out some -business cards that I had wrote his name on the back on, and said, "He -won't be a prospect any more because he is going to jail," and ripped -the card up. - -Mr. BALL. Threw it away? - -Mr. BOGARD. Threw it away. - -Mr. BALL. And when the FBI agent came to see you, the card had already -been thrown away? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I tore it up that very same day. - -Mr. BALL. This was Friday the 22d? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; the day I heard that Kennedy had been killed. I -hadn't heard that the President had been killed; just heard a policeman -had been shot and that's when I tore up the card and said, "He won't -want to buy a car." - -Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe -him? - -Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he -actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell -you what he looked like that day, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was he tall, or short? - -Mr. BOGARD. About medium build, I'd say. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what name he gave you? - -Mr. BOGARD. Gave me Lee Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you that when he first introduced---- - -Mr. BOGARD. He give me that when he started to leave. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, gave you that when he started to leave? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And didn't give you any name when he first introduced himself? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what kind of a car he wanted? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; wanted a Caliente, two-door hardtop. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of make is that? - -Mr. BOGARD. Mercury Comet. - -Mr. BALL. And did you show him one? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What color did you show him? - -Mr. BOGARD. Red. - -Mr. BALL. You took a ride with him? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he drive, or did you drive it? - -Mr. BOGARD. He drove it. - -Mr. BALL. Drive it, right out of the shop, or did you drive it first -and then---- - -Mr. BOGARD. No; he drove it right offhand. He got in driving it. - -Mr. BALL. Did he appear to know how to drive the car? - -Mr. BOGARD. Well, he had drove before, I'm sure, because he took off. - -Mr. BALL. Did he---- - -Mr. BOGARD. He might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, -he knew how to drive. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean, "He might have drove it a little reckless"? - -Mr. BOGARD. Well, going 60 and 70 miles an hour right up a Freeway and -took curves kind of fast. - -Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you got back to the showroom you say you did some -figuring. What kind of figuring? - -Mr. BOGARD. Just took out some papers and going to write up how much -the car would cost and, just like with anybody else, just trying to -close the deal, and he said he would have the money in 2 or 3 weeks and -would come in and---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you needed a down payment? - -Mr. BOGARD. He said he would have it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him how much? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How much? - -Mr. BOGARD. Three hundred dollars, I think. And he said he didn't have -the money then and would just pay cash for it at a later date. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he lived? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you his--didn't give you his address or telephone -number? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir; or occupation. - -Mr. BALL. And he gave you his name, though? - -Mr. BOGARD. Lee Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. At what time? - -Mr. BOGARD. That is when he was fixing to leave. - -Mr. BALL. Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BOGARD. Uh-huh. - -Mr. BALL. You say you wrote it on one of your own cards? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; back of one of my business cards. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody about it at that time? - -Mr. BOGARD. Now, at that time I don't know whether--Now, Mr. Pizzo, I -think I introduced him to him. I introduced him to Mr. Pizzo. He asked -what was wrong with him and I said he hasn't got the money right now. -Will be back in a couple or 3 weeks. - -Mr. BALL. You introduced him to Pizzo? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you said this in front of Pizzo that he didn't have the -money? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; he was expecting some money--to have the money in -2 or 3 weeks. - -Mr. BALL. When did you see the television that called your attention to -this? - -Mr. BOGARD. I heard it on the radio. - -Mr. BALL. You heard it on the radio? - -Mr. BOGARD. And then I tore the card up, and that very same night on -the 10 o'clock news, I think it was, if I remember correctly, I saw him -on TV. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures of Lee Oswald in the newspaper? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; Dallas Morning News, next morning. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what was your impression when you saw the man on -television? - -Mr. BOGARD. All my impression was that he had been in and tried to buy -a car, that he wasn't a prospect any more. - -Mr. BALL. What about his picture in the paper? Did it appear to be--did -you recognize him from the picture? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I recognized him as being the same fellow that had -been in. - -Mr. BALL. And did you tell anybody out there that you thought it was -the same person? - -Mr. BOGARD. They began asking me then, and I said, "Yes," and this -Pizzo recognized him, too. - -Mr. BALL. What did Pizzo say? - -Mr. BOGARD. Said, "Yes; that is the same man." And Pizzo also has been -questioned by the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name? - -Mr. BOGARD. P-i-z-z-o. - -Mr. BALL. He was the sales manager? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is he still the sales manager out there? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where is he now? - -Mr. BOGARD. I don't know. I think, though, that he is at Eagle -Lincoln-Mercury. I wouldn't be for sure, because I haven't seen Pizzo -since I left Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when was it that you talked to the other salesman about -this and told them that you thought the man had been in to see you? - -Mr. BOGARD. We were all standing there listening to the radio and the -name came on the radio, and I pulled this business card out with "Lee -Oswald," wrote across it. - -Mr. BALL. Who were some of the men standing by the radio when you -pulled this business card out? - -Mr. BOGARD. Oh, I think Oran Brown was there, Mr. Wilson was there, and -this other little boy, he hadn't been there very long. I can't remember -his name at this time right now. - -Mr. BALL. Oran Brown and Wilson? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What are Wilson's initials, do you have them? - -Mr. BOGARD. I can't remember Mr. Wilson's initials right now. - -Mr. BALL. Wilson a salesman? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; been there for about 12 years. - -Mr. BALL. Is Brown a salesman? - -Mr. BOGARD. He works for Fina Oil Co. out here on Inwood Road now. - -Mr. BALL. What is it? - -Mr. BOGARD. [Spelling] O-r-a-n. - -Mr. BALL. [Spelling] O-r-a-n--oil what? - -Mr. BOGARD. My--no, he works for Fina Oil Co., American Petra Fina Oil -Co. A service station. - -Mr. BALL. Service station? - -Mr. BOGARD. He manages this service station out there. New, big service -station. - -Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Bogard, did you receive a letter from the -Commission asking you to appear here? - -Mr. BOGARD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were asked to appear by the Secret Service? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I probably should have stated to you the purpose of this -inquiry. The Commission has been authorized to investigate the -assassination of the President and any facts or circumstances that -might determine who assassinated him. And our attention was called to -your testimony by the Federal Bureau of Investigation report, and we -asked you to come in and testify and you did so willingly, didn't you? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were willing? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Willing to come in and testify and be sworn? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And testify as to these facts? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I am a staff officer with the Commission. - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And I am authorized by the Commission to administer the oath -to you and ask you these questions, and all questions you answered were -under oath. You understand that? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I answered the same questions under a polygraph -test. - -Mr. BALL. Under a polygraph test from the FBI? - -Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this will be written up and submitted to you for your -signature, and you can come down here and look it over and read it and -sign it, or you may waive your signature--whatever you wish. Which do -you prefer? - -Mr. BOGARD. Which do you want? Put it that way. - -Mr. BALL. I'm going to leave it up to you. That is really something for -you to decide whether you want to come back down here or not. - -Mr. BOGARD. I don't mind coming back down. - -Mr. BALL. We'll notify you and you can come in and we will notify you -when it is ready and you can come in and sign it. - -Mr. BOGARD. Thank you. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming down. - -Mr. BOGARD. Thank you, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FLOYD GUY DAVIS - -The testimony of Floyd Guy Davis was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis, would you please rise and raise your right -hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DAVIS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Mr. Davis, my name is Wesley J. -Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have -been authorized by the Commission to take testimony from you and from -other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of -Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you, Mr. Davis, last week and -indicated--in point of fact, the letter was returned to Washington and -it was on my desk when I left. It was addressed to the Sports Drome -Rifle Range and could not be delivered at that address. With the letter -that Mr. Rankin originally sent to you, he enclosed a copy of the -Executive order and joint resolution to which I just referred as well -as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking -of testimony. - -Since you didn't get copies of those documents nor the letter, I now -hand you copies of those documents which you may keep for your own -reference. It is my understanding that you were contacted by the Secret -Service and requested to come here and give testimony. Technically, you -are entitled to 3-days' notice. I don't expect you did get it, but you -are now here and I assume you have no objection to going ahead with -your testimony at this point, is that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. That's right, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire concerning the possibility that Lee -Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at a rifle range which would -be, I am informed, one which you operated at 8000 West Davis, Dallas, -Tex. - -Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name? - -Mr. DAVIS. Floyd Guy Davis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. DAVIS. 2824 Byway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. DAVIS. Thirty-two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. DAVIS. In Louisville, Ky. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. DAVIS. It was approximately 8 years ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you move here from Louisville? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have lived all your life in Louisville and Dallas, is -that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that during the period -October and November of 1963, you were the operator of the Sports Dome -Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis? - -Mr. DAVIS. That is D-r-o-m-e. It is Sports Drome. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I was pronouncing it Dome. - -Mr. DAVIS. I thought you were. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still operating that rifle range? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, we are. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you commence operating it? - -Mr. DAVIS. The exact date, I don't have, sir. It was about the first of -October of last year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We are informed that the FBI has interviewed you and -taken from you certain shell cases? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For analysis in the FBI laboratory? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us briefly the circumstances that led up -to that, as far as you know. - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, the only thing that I know that happened, there was -some people that said that they had seen Oswald out at the range on -three different occasions. I believe that it was on the 9th, the 10th, -and the 17th of November. And they informed the FBI that he was out -there. The two I am sure that contacted me was Mr. Malcolm Price or -Howard Price and Garland Slack, and the FBI in turn came out and talked -to us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Malcolm Price? - -Mr. DAVIS. That is Malcolm Howard Price, is his full name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know his name yourself? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he worked with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He worked with you? - -Mr. DAVIS. He does now. At that time he was helping us out there trying -to get the range started, and he has a heart ailment where he don't -hold a regular job, so he helps us out there a little bit on the range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had seen an individual who he -thought was Oswald at the range? - -Mr. DAVIS. He sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what date he thought he saw this man? - -Mr. DAVIS. He said on the 9th and the 10th and the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three different occasions? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at the range on those days? - -Mr. DAVIS. I was there, but not at the time that he was talking about -on the 9th and the 10th. Now on the 17th, I was there, and the two -individuals that he brought up in their testimony, I remember them -being there, but I don't remember the faces. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean you remember them being there? - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, Mr. Slack, there was this booth No. 9 on the rifle -range---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. On what date? - -Mr. DAVIS. On the 17th; and I was holding the turkey shoot at the same -time. Mr. Slack come to me and was complaining about someone shooting -his target. - -So there was two young fellows, I can remember the approximate height -of them but I don't remember what their faces looked like, that were in -booth No. 8. I do remember the person that was in booth No. 7, though, -because I don't know whether you have talked to Mr. Charlie Brown in -the last 2 weeks or not on this---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Brown, the FBI agent, yes. - -Mr. DAVIS. There was a fellow with a black beard in that booth No. 7, -at the same time. I remember him because he was outstanding, you know, -and I went to these fellows in booth No. 8, and was giving them heck -about shooting at the wrong target. And this other fellow, I remember -him because he wouldn't say anything to me. I tried to speak to him -two or three different occasions, because he had a lot of guns, and I -thought he would be a good customer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow with the beard? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was how tall, approximately? - -Mr. DAVIS. He was over 6 feet and he weighed a good 250 pounds. A big -bruiser. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think we can assume that was not Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DAVIS. They were trying to find him. Charlie Brown was trying to -find this person, and 2 weeks ago on a Sunday morning I saw him in an -automobile out on Davis, I believe it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The big fellow with the beard? - -Mr. DAVIS. The big fellow there with the beard. And I got the license -number on the car and the type of car it was and called it into the -office. - -I haven't heard anything from Mr. Brown since then, whether he got the -information, but I am sure he did when I turned it into the office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's review this. Mr. Slack was in booth No. 9, is -that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This big fellow was in booth No. 7? - -Mr. DAVIS. Right. And there was the two young fellows in booth No. 8. -One of them was 5 foot 6 or 5 foot 7, somewhere in that vicinity, and -the other one was about 6 foot, and he was blackheaded. - -I can remember that, but as far as remembering their faces, with that -turkey shoot we had 225 people that day, I can't remember what they -looked like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that these two fellows, one was approximately 6 -feet tall or over, is that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was heavy-set or slender? - -Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't particularly heavy-set, he was just a medium -build. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was not of a light build, however? - -Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. He was just about my size. I would say 160 to -170 pounds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you? - -Mr. DAVIS. Six-one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you weigh? - -Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 160, but I was a little bit heavier about that -time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you determine which of the fellows was shooting at -Mr. Slack's target? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to both of them or all three of them? - -Mr. DAVIS. Not as an individual. I spoke to the group to be sure they -were firing at the right target and to watch where they were facing -because they were shooting at the wrong target. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This Mr. Slack, now then, believes that one of the two of -these fellows could have been Lee Harvey Oswald, is that right? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Slack has told you that? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Price was also there the same day? - -Mr. DAVIS. He said he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He also indicated that he thinks one of those two -gentlemen was Oswald? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself had an opportunity to observe both of these -gentlemen, did you not? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures which have been -previously marked as Commission Exhibits Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455 and -456, and ask you if you recognize from these pictures the pictures of -the individuals who were firing from booth No. 8, at your range on -Sunday, November 17, 1963? - -Mr. DAVIS. He sure looks familiar, but I couldn't say for sure. It sure -looks familiar. This would have been the taller of the two, and this is -almost---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed to Commission Exhibit 451, and you think that -gentleman resembles the taller of the two men that were firing from -booth No. 8? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he is about the same size. The face features, I seem -to have seen them before, but as far as--it sure looks like him. I -couldn't say definitely that it was him, but it sure looks a lot like -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see any resemblance between any of the pictures -which I have shown and the shorter of the two men? - -Mr. DAVIS. The face on the other one, I couldn't say what it looked -like. So many of these pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald have been shown to -me, and they started showing me things about the time it all happened, -and I would hate to say that it was him. But definitely this fellow, -the taller of the two fellows was about his built. He looked like he is -about my size. He may be a little bit shorter in those pictures. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the facial features of the gentleman on 451? - -Mr. DAVIS. Like I say, the features of his face are familiar, they seem -to be familiar to me, but as far as definitely saying that was the -person out there I---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't do that? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; but it does look familiar, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you next a photograph that has previously -been marked Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, which is a photograph of several -individuals, one of whom has been marked by a green marker. I ask you -if that picture bears any resemblance to either of the two men you saw -firing from booth No. 8, at your rifle range on Sunday, November 17? - -Mr. DAVIS. Like I said before I couldn't be too sure because I have saw -so many pictures of this that look like Lee Harvey Oswald that they get -to running together with them when I get to thinking about them, and I -would hate to say that I was, because I have saw pictures of him in all -different forms, in the newspapers, in--and also some that the police -have brought out there, and the Grand Prairie police brought them, -and some of the FBI, and I would hate to say because I was very much -interested in the case at the time it did happen, because myself it was -a blow to the business that I am in. - -As far as someone with a high-powered rifle shooting the President like -he did, I was afraid they were going to pass a bill which would stop -that stuff, and it is like a hard blow to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To your business at the range? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your business actually fall off after the -assassination? - -Mr. DAVIS. It practically died on that thing. It just -gradually--yesterday we had one person out there, compared to 80 and 90 -when we first opened. Of course, they were in deer season. That had a -lot to do with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been shown this picture that I just showed -you before? - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 453-B? - -Mr. DAVIS. Not that particular shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you an exhibit marked Pizzo 453-C, and ask -you if you recognize that individual as being one of those who were at -your range on the date we have been discussing? - -Mr. DAVIS. I have saw that picture or similar one before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have seen the picture before? - -Mr. DAVIS. I have seen a picture similar to him before. There was a -scar on his head, but as far as that is concerned, I don't believe I -have saw the individual. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't identify that individual as either one of the -two that was at the range? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you Exhibit 451 again and ask you if that -individual appears to you to be the same individual as Lee Harvey -Oswald, based on your observation of Oswald's picture in the newspaper -and the press? - -Mr. DAVIS. That this is Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Does that appear to you to be Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It does not? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. This Mr. Price did say that Oswald was in an old -model Chevrolet when he was out there on this Friday, the 9th, because -it was late in the afternoon when he came out there. - -And Mr. Price helped him sight that rifle in. Helped him sight the -scope in on the rifle, and he had two comments to say about that rifle, -sir. - -I am not for sure, I don't know anything about it, but he said that -the markings, all but the serial number had been filed off of this -particular rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price did say that? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And he said that the scope was the clearest scope -that he had ever seen for a small scope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what size scope it was? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he told me, but as far as---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said? - -Mr. DAVIS. Not the exact size of it. I know there was several different -sizes of scopes on there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The size of this scope is measured in terms of power? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. There is 2, 2-1/2, 4, 6, and on up. And he knows the -sizes, what he was talking about, but I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Mr. Price? - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have actually only known him since the rifle range -opened. But two of his boys has helped us at the racetrack or helped -my wife last summer, at the racetrack, all summer. And as far as an -individual person, I didn't know him until we opened the gun range, -other than just to speak to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old a fellow is he? - -Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price is approximately 35, and he does have a heart -condition that the doctors won't let him work, as far as any work is -concerned, and that is why he stays down at the range, more or less to -watch it for us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your opinion, is he a reliable fellow? - -Mr. DAVIS. He is very reliable, or I wouldn't have him down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would say he saw Oswald if he didn't -in fact see him? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. In fact, he told us about this before we called the -FBI. But he was afraid--he's got five children, and he was afraid that -it was some Communist plot or some gang that had done this, and he was -afraid for his children, or he would have called them sooner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is not a publicity seeker? - -Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. I would say he was very sincere of this. It -might have been a case about a double identity or someone that looked a -lot like him. I would say definitely that he thought he saw him. - -There was also some doctor or lawyer in Oak Cliff, and his son, that he -said he saw him out there on the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that on the 17th? - -Mr. DAVIS. That was on the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Dr. Wood? - -Mr. DAVIS. I believe it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dentist? - -Mr. DAVIS. He might be a dentist. They told us at the range--Charlie -Brown, I believe, afterwards, of the FBI, said that he wasn't sure it -was him, but they told us previously they were sure that it was Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever advised you as to the results of the -tests they probably ran on or did run on the cartridge cases you gave -them? - -Mr. DAVIS. No; nothing. I asked them if they were all there when they -returned them. He did return them, and he said they were all there, so -I took it from that that they didn't find anything in the case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether the cases that you gave the FBI were -cases that were used in a rifle that were used by these gentlemen that -were firing from booth No. 8, on November 17, 1963? - -Mr. DAVIS. From what Mr. Price told me, he was down at the range -helping out on the particular target. He saw these fellows pick up all -the shells and--they shot that day, which is very frequent, because -they reload a lot of that ammunition, but these particular fellows did -pick them up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife observe these two individuals on the 17th? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; she was in the office, she doesn't remember them, -or she said before that she didn't remember them. She doesn't remember -this part I was telling you about, about Slack coming to them and -complaining about their shooting the wrong target. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who else said they saw Oswald on the 9th and 10th? - -Mr. DAVIS. That was Mr. Price. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mr. Price? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. Mr. Slack said he saw him on the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 17th only? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me Mr. Slack's full name? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't have it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is just a customer of yours, is that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir; Mr. Brown has talked to him before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price was not at the range on the 17th? - -Mr. DAVIS. Price was at the range on the 17th; yes, also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he also say that he thinks that these gentlemen were -with Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. DAVIS. He thought this one individual that was with this taller -fellow in booth No. 8, was Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Both Mr. Slack and Mr. Price came to that conclusion, is -that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that both Mr. Price -and Mr. Slack observed these two gentlemen on the 17th, but only Mr. -Price observed them on the 9th and 10th, is that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Price thinks they are the same -men? - -Mr. DAVIS. He definitely thinks that it is the same man Oswald on the -9th and 10th. I don't believe he said there was anyone with him, and -that he come out there just at dark, right before dark and was driving -an old-model Chevrolet, or was in an old-model Chevrolet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it just a car or a station wagon? - -Mr. DAVIS. I don't remember. He just said it was an old-model car, and -he could have meant a station wagon when he said an old car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that these men at booth 8, were -using? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not at anytime observe it? - -Mr. DAVIS. I possibly could have when I walked up there, but I didn't -pay any attention. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you wouldn't be able to identify that rifle if I -showed you a picture of it now? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; when you see as many rifles as I do out at -that range out there, it would be hard unless there was something -outstanding about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing outstanding about that that you can -remember now? - -Mr. DAVIS. I was more or less mad when I went down there, because -someone was shooting at the wrong target. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe these two gentlemen leaving the range on -the 17th? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I sure didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had experience with the sighting in of rifles? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite experienced in that field, as a matter of -fact, are you not? - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have taught myself in the past 5 months of operation -of that gun range to where I can usually sight one in within 8 to 10 -shots pretty close. Mr. Price is a gun enthusiast and he is real good -at it, and he has been doing it for a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If a man purchased a rifle from a mail-order house that -had a telescopic sight mounted on it, would you have any opinion as to -what the accuracy of that rifle would be without it having actually -been sighted in by actual firing of the rifle? - -Mr. DAVIS. If the gun was anywhere near accurate, it would have to be -an accident, because the slightest jar can knock a scope 2 or 3 foot -out of balance, and there is no way that you could ship a gun and carry -a gun around a little bit and make sure it being accurate. That is why -your deer hunters practice and shoot their guns in every year before -they go deer hunting. And I have saw them waste almost five boxes of -shells trying to get them accurate down there after having sighted them -in the year before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the technique of boresighting? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If a rifle is boresighted is that enough to make it -accurate? - -Mr. DAVIS. By the average individual, no. And by the shops around -Dallas here, no. Because they have brought us several guns out there -that have been boresighted in various shops around Dallas and we have -had to resight them, because another thing, the scope will have to be -adjusted to the individual eyes, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that can only be done through firing a rifle? - -Mr. DAVIS. That is right, that can only be done from firing a rifle and -sighting it in. You can get it close, but you couldn't get it right on -target, especially at a hundred yards. - -Every gun I sight in, I boresight them myself at a 25-yard target to -get them into the 25-yard target, and once I get it within an inch of -the "bullseye," then I go to the long range, which is easy to bring it -in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, -Tex.? - -Mr. DAVIS. Nothing; only I have dropped a poster off, advertising, when -I first opened the gun range, and I am not familiar with the owner of -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dial Ryder? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not the name. I may know the face, but I don't know -the name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He works in the Irving Sports Shop. - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sights rifles and mounts scopes and things like that. - -Mr. DAVIS. No; I am not familiar with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether you have ever sighted in a rifle that -has been boresighted at the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not offhand. We usually don't ask them where they -sighted the guns in because it is not a good idea to run down any -gunshop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the area around Love Field? - -Mr. DAVIS. Fairly familiar with it; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to practice with a -high-powered rifle around Love Field? - -Mr. DAVIS. It would be right about Bachman Lake, around the lake -itself, as long as the police didn't catch you. There is the river -bottom right in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to fire out there, to -sight a rifle in without having a police notice it or someone in the -neighborhood notice it and calling it to the police? - -Mr. DAVIS. As long as you stayed 400 yards off the highway, there is -places down there you could get that it would be possible. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There are areas surrounding the field that are not built -up to such an extent so that you could actually practice with a rifle -in that area, is that correct? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of anybody firing a rifle in that -vicinity? - -Mr. DAVIS. I have people all the time that have been practicing in the -Trinity River bottoms around Dallas come out to the range and have been -glad we opened that range so they could quit it because it is not a -safe practice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that near Love Field? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. The Trinity River bottom is not far from there. It is -actually between Irving and Love Field. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from Love Field itself if you wanted to go -to the Trinity River bottom and didn't have an automobile? Could you -take a bus to Love Field or near Love Field and then walk that readily -to the Trinity River bottom? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One could do that very easily? - -Mr. DAVIS. It is a mile and a half. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I do want -to ask you if you can give me, Mr. Davis, Mr. Slack's address? - -Mr. DAVIS. I don't have it here, but I have some clippings at home out -of a newspaper that has it there. He lives on Urbandale. If you have a -Dallas phone book, I can probably get it out of the phone book. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Price? - -Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price lives on Rice Street in Grand Prairie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything that you would like to add -to the record, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that. - -Mr. DAVIS. The only thing that I would like to say is that there were -several other people mentioned that they saw Oswald on the 17th, but -they said they didn't want to get involved in it. I don't know whether -they were just talking or what it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names? - -Mr. DAVIS. Not no particular persons. My wife, I'm sure, can tell you -some of them. She more or less runs the gun range through the week, and -I am only there through the weekend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in, Mr. Davis. I -appreciate your cooperation. The Commission wants you to know that it -appreciates the fact that you have cooperated with us in the way you -have. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA LOUISE DAVIS - -The testimony of Virginia Louise Davis was taken at 10 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the -legal staff of the President's Commission that is investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority -granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -As I told your husband, whose testimony which I just took, Mr. Rankin -sent you both a letter last week which was returned to Washington -because it could not be delivered at the gun range. It was addressed to -the Sports Drome Rifle Range and it could not be delivered there. - -Mr. Rankin in the letter advised you that we would be in touch with you -to arrange for the taking of your testimony. He enclosed copies of the -Executive order and the congressional resolution, as well as a copy of -the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. - -I gave your husband a copy of those documents and he has them and will -make them available to you if you want to look at them. You have been -provided with copies this morning. - -As I told Mr. Davis, you are technically entitled to 3-days' notice -before appearing before us, but since you are here, I presume that you -would be willing to waive that notice and will go ahead? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee -Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at the rifle range which is -operated by you and your husband. - -Before I get into the details of that testimony, however, would you -state your full name for the record? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia Louise Davis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Floyd Guy Davis, is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your address is 2825 Byway, Dallas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Dallas; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband have been operating the Sports Drome -Rifle Range since some time in October 1963; is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Dallas, Mrs. Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; Kentucky. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Kentucky? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Louisville. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, let's see, it has been 7 years ago, I think. I think we -have been here 7 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband moved to Dallas from Louisville -together; is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He came down about 6 months before I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at that time? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has had reports that various people -observed a gentleman whom they believed to be Lee Harvey Oswald at -the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis on various occasions. -I would like to have you tell us now just what you know about those -reports, and whether or not you have ever seen anybody there that -resembled Oswald? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. There is only three things that stand out in my mind -at the time it happened that I can verify what they say, and that is -the one night that I was there by myself and Mr. Howard Price got the -last customer that came in and took him down there, and he said that -he thought it was Lee Harvey Oswald because of the rifle, it being an -Italian rifle with this scope on it, and he remembered the gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price told you that? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. And then the other time I was there was, this -gentleman that was supposed to have been with him with the beard, -and I couldn't forget him--if I would see the man right now I would -recognize him, but he has never been back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that Mr. Price said he took -Oswald in, or this man who he thought was Oswald, who was the last -customer? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know the exact date, but I wrote it in my journal, -but I don't have it with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you refer to the journal, what do you mean? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It is a daily record I keep of everything that happens at -the range. When we first opened, everyone had to sign it. But the FBI -picked up the sign-in slips and checked it out, and, of course, Lee -Harvey Oswald wasn't on it, but at the time we did not have fences up -and anyone could get on the range without us knowing it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not this man who Mr. Price took -down to the range this evening as the last customer signed in the book -or not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He did not. It was our last customer and he just went on -down with him because it was late and they were tired and cold and -wanting to get home. But he was in an old car and he was alone and he -was a young slender man, and that is all I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of car it was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price does? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he does. But I don't. It is just an old car to me. I -don't know too much about cars and then the day that Mr. Slack came up -there in a panic because someone was shooting at a target that he had -paid for instead of his own, I remember that. That is the only three -incidents that I remember, and that is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first incident was when? - -Mrs. DAVIS. A late customer when Mr. Price brought them in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man was a late customer? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I did, but it was dark and I didn't see his face. I -just went to the window and Mr. Price said, "I will take him. You won't -have to take him down." We always take the customer to the range and -stay with them and put their target up for them because you can't let -them stay down there. They are liable to shoot anything, and he took -him down, and I locked up, and I left, and they were there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to identify this man if I showed you a -picture of Oswald or someone else? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The second incident was when Mr. Slack reported to you -that someone was firing his target, is that correct? Or was that the -third incident? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That was the third incident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's cover that one. Mr. Slack came up to the office, -you say, and complained that someone was firing on his target? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. My husband went down there and asked the boys to quit -firing at someone else's target, and he said something about, "Boys, -you must fire at your own target," or something like that. And he got -it straightened out, but they left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of these men at that time? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I was in the office. I take care of that part of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man with the beard there at that time, do you -know? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; that was on a Sunday afternoon or a Saturday. It was a -Saturday or a Sunday, and the reason I remember him, it was the same -day they said Oswald was out there, and I tried to talk to him, which -I talked to everyone that comes in, and he was noticeable because he -looked like the Castro type. He had this big beard and he was heavy -set and big broad shoulders, and well, he was just outstanding in his -appearance. He had big red earmuffs on and I couldn't help but notice -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone with him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know because he never spoke a word. I don't know if -anyone was with him or not, but he did have several guns. When I say -several, I mean not one or two. It was three or four, and he paid for -each rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not see anyone with him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was Saturday or Sunday, you say? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was a Saturday or a Sunday, and we was having turkey -shoots at the time and having several people out there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is when the man with the beard was there, is that -correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the same day that the gentleman complained about -somebody firing into their target? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was. It was the same day they was complaining about the -two boys next to him firing into his target. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We mean Mr. Slack, do we not? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mr. Slack. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not see either of these two men who -were supposedly firing into Mr. Slack's target? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not yourself personally observe any of those -gentlemen or who was supposed to have been Lee Oswald, is that correct? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe the rifle that was in the possession -of this gentleman who was supposed to be Oswald? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; at the time I didn't know one gun from another. Now I -can tell you everything they bring in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not on this Sunday that Mr. -Slack complained that someone was firing into his target, everybody -signed into the journal? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not everyone, because at the time we didn't have our fences -up. See, we have a fence that is all along the gun range, because there -were too many getting on the range without paying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not the two men who were supposed -to be firing into Mr. Slack's target signed in the journal? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know one way or the other, Mrs. Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know, because the only reason we was having them -sign in was to sign them cards to invite them to the next turkey shoot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have seen them at the time they signed it, -necessarily, or might someone else? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Someone might sign in for them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you would not necessarily have observed these -individuals signing in? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; because the man who was outstanding, he didn't sign in. -I didn't see the man until he walked through the gun range. He didn't -walk through the entrance, or I would have seen him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis mentioned the names of Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, -and he said that there were some others. - -Mrs. DAVIS. There was a doctor and his son that was out there that day. -They remembered the rifle and they reported that to me before any of it -came out in the paper, but I didn't get his name. But I do think that -the FBI contacted this doctor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember his name if I told you it was Dr. -Wood? Would that ring a bell with you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, it doesn't. It has been so long ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, other than this doctor and Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, -do you know of anyone else who said that they thought that they saw -Oswald at the range? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I would take their word for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you mean by that. You must have somebody in -mind, somebody who told you these stories, and I would like to have you -tell them to us if you would. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, there was a mister--what is his name--Camplen, -Charlie Camplen, and he said he was out there on a Wednesday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He said that Oswald?---- - -Mrs. DAVIS. But I didn't get into any detail, so I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Camplen told you he saw Oswald on a Wednesday? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anybody else that has claimed to have seen -Oswald at the range? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. James Thompson? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; Jim, he did say he thought he did, and I think he kind -of backed off. I don't know what to believe. I just don't know. He said -he wasn't going to say he did, because he couldn't swear to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day that he, Mr. Thompson, thought -he might have seen Oswald? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was on a Sunday. It was the same Sunday, because he was -helping run the targets down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Thompson tell you about this? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He told--he didn't talk to me too much about it. In fact, -he said he don't remember. He couldn't say he actually saw him. At -first he did say he saw him, and he did remember the incident about the -target, and Slack, but he don't, he said he couldn't swear that it was -Oswald. And we have never discussed it further. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thompson lives---- - -Mrs. DAVIS. He is with the Bardahl Co. He is a representative of -Bardahl. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live in the 1100 block of Gilpin Street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. B. G. Moses, do you know him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he is a neighbor. He lives across the street from me. -But I just don't know about him. I mean, he hasn't had too much to say -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; in a way, he did, and well, in a way--he didn't -actually come out and say--he said, "I think I saw him." I will put it -that way. He thinks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday that you had the incident -concerning the target? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He worked that week, but I don't know if he was down there -or not that Sunday. It seems to me like he was working the trap. He was -in the office, come in and out of the office, but I don't think he was -on the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the Sunday we are speaking of? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the date of this Sunday? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, I don't. I think it was around November, maybe the -13th, something like that. I wouldn't know unless I had my dates in -front of me. I don't remember names or dates too well, but I remember -faces. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the weekend before the assassination? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was the last weekend preceding the assassination? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; and we did quite a bit of advertising when we opened -that range. The last week in October is when we opened the range, and -we had in that month, we ran, let's see, it was 1600 and some people -through there, so you know the word got around that it was a public gun -range and was open. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that anybody who was interested in it would have known -about it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not Oswald was -really at the range as a result of all these discussions? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I really do think he was. I didn't see the man. I couldn't -say one word, but I really think he was, sincerely, because the two -men, especially Howard Price, he is the kind of person that you can -believe what he says. He is intelligent. When he says he knows a rifle, -he knows that rifle. He can get out there and dig out slugs, which he -does, and melt them down to the lead, and he can tell you what slug is -out of each gun, which I can't do. He is just a gun enthusiast and he -loves it and he remembered that gun. - -But that is the only thing I can say. I did not see the man and I -couldn't say. I mean nothing except I would take his word for it. He -wouldn't be the kind, and he told us this before it all come out in the -paper, and the rifle, it hadn't been identified in the paper when he -identified it. But Slack, I don't know too much about him. He is just -a temperamental hothead. He was very hot, and they kept kicking his -booth. He said they had odd shoes on and kept kicking his booth. If -someone is knocking this desk, she couldn't write, and he kept knocking -the side of the booth and he couldn't shoot, and that made him angry. -But that is the only thing that I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion basically on the conversation -you had with Mr. Price and your respect for Mr. Price's judgment? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price tell you, or did you learn how these men -got to the rifle range? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they walk or come in a car? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Now, Mr. Price said they came in a car, this old car. I -think he knows the make of it, but like I say, I didn't see him. The -only thing--only time I saw a car at a late arrival was the night I was -telling you about that Price took him down there, but I saw the man get -out, but that is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price see these two men on the Sunday before the -assassination when they had the incident over the target? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't think he was down there that day. I don't remember. -I don't think so. I know Jim Thompson was working that day and Mr. -Moses and my husband and I, and we never have over four, so I don't -think we was--I may be mistaken, he may have been there, but not -working for us, because he was there every day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Price was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Price was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anybody else who might have seen Oswald -at the range, or this fellow they thought was Oswald, come and told you -about it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, I sure can't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. Is -there anything that you can think of? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I have thought and thought, and I would give anything if I -could think of something or identify someone he was with. I think that -would be more of a help to you people than anything, wouldn't it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it would. - -Mrs. DAVIS. My husband did call in that he saw this bearded man. Do you -have that on your records? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband told us. - -Mrs. DAVIS. He went right to the phone and called, because we were -convinced. Do you know anybody that was with him that day? The man may -be completely innocent, but we just feel that he was with him because -he was so belligerent and stood around and he wouldn't talk. You don't -find people like that at a gun range. They are really friendly and they -come out to shoot and have a good time, and I have never had anyone -treat me like he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This bearded man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle that the bearded man had with him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He had several, yes. He had them, but I couldn't identify -them. I could now. They like for you to discuss their rifles with them -when they come in. They think they are important, you know. And now I -can identify a rifle, but I didn't know a rifle from a shotgun, a .22 -from a 16-gauge shotgun. I mean, I didn't know the difference. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you wouldn't be able to identify the rifle that the -bearded man had with him if I showed you pictures of a rifle? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; because like I say, at that time they were just guns. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you think would -be helpful to us at this point, I will thank you for coming in and -cooperating with us the way you have. I want you to know the Commission -appreciates it very much. - -Mrs. DAVIS. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM HOWARD PRICE, JR. - -The testimony of Malcolm Howard Price, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., -on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. -Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, sir, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PRICE. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and -Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give to you a copy of -that Executive order and of that joint resolution, as well as a copy of -the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking -of testimony of witnesses. - -We want to inquire of you concerning the possibility that you saw -Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome Rifle Range, 8000 West Davis, -sometime in November 1963. - -Before we get into the details, I would like to have you state your -full name for the record. - -Mr. PRICE. It is Malcolm Howard Price, Jr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Price? - -Mr. PRICE. At 1127 Rice, Grand Prairie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. PRICE. I was born at Graham, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life here in Texas? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I have lived in Oklahoma for 4 years and in California -for 5 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Dallas--this last time--in -Grand Prairie? - -Mr. PRICE. Oh, about 13 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. PRICE. April 6, 1928. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed? - -Mr. PRICE. I am retired--I am unemployed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that's primarily because of the fact that -you have a heart condition? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? - -Mr. PRICE. I have five. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with Sports Drome Rifle Range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; very familiar with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As a matter of fact, you work there from time to time, do -you not? - -Mr. PRICE. I have helped them there--I'm not, as you say, employed, but -I do help there from time to time. They are close friends of mine and -I have helped them get the things set up and get it started. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to the Davises? - -Mr. PRICE. Virginia and Floyd Davis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has information to the effect that -sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range -whom you subsequently came to believe was Lee Harvey Oswald; is that -correct? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. The first time that I saw this person was in -September, the last week--the last Saturday of September, and that was -the afternoon that they opened the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the last Saturday of September? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be September 28? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw this -fellow? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, it was just about dusky dark and he came in in an old -model car, I would judge it was possibly a 1940 or 1941 model Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him? - -Mr. PRICE. No; he was by himself, and I have heard that he couldn't -drive, but he was driving that day because he was the only one in the -car, and he came down and inquired if there was anyone there that could -set a scope, a telescope on a rifle, and I told him that I could, and -he said, well--he had one that he had had mounted and boresighted but -it hadn't been fired on a range and that he would like to have it -sighted in, so I went down and set up a target on a hundred yards. - -Actually, he set the target up himself and I drove my car and turned -the headlights on on the target and as I proceeded to set the rifle--I -fired the rifle approximately 12 to--12 to 18 times I would say and -zeroed it in on a hundred yards and Mr. Davis came in from work before -we left and he also drove his pickup down and turned his lights on. He -drove his pickup down on the opposite side and turned his lights on the -target. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the opposite side of the target from your car? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; and Mrs. Davis went home--she was tired and wasn't -feeling too good and she went home as soon as he got down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as Mr. Davis did? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Davis see this fellow at that time? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't know whether he saw him or not. He apparently -don't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have discussed it with Mr. Davis? - -Mr. PRICE. Oh, we have talked about it some, but he doesn't--he don't -even recall turning his headlights on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did this man fire the rifle himself? - -Mr. PRICE. He fired three shots after I had got it set to where I could -fire a pattern, with three shots in a bull's eye. I turned it over to -him and I said, "Now, I'm satisfied with it, you try it." - -And, he fired three shots and he scored bull's eye with all three--a -very tight pattern and he said, "Well, I am completely satisfied." - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much did you charge him for zeroing the rifle in? - -Mr. PRICE. I didn't charge him anything. I charged him $1 for the use -of the range and that was all. I just did that as a favor to Floyd to -help him get his business in. I figured this was just another hunter -who had come down to get his rifle zeroed in for deer season. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversation with this fellow at -that time? - -Mr. PRICE. No, that was all. It was rather abrupt. He didn't talk too -much, and I was kind of surprised that he didn't fire the rifle more. -He just fired the three shots and he said, "Well, that's good enough," -and he got up and left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the shell casings lying there at the range -or did he take them with him? - -Mr. PRICE. No, he took them with him--he picked them all up after the -rifle was fired and took the shell casings along with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had an opportunity to observe the rifle, did you not? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes, I had it in my hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be able to identify the rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I believe I would--it was a foreign make rifle and I -wasn't too familiar with it at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see it again? - -Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions that he was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go on to that, you indicated that in order to -see the target you had to turn the lights of the automobile on and that -of Mr. Davis' truck on; is that right? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it light up at the rifle range from where you fired? - -Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; we have neon lights there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't have any difficulty in seeing this fellow? - -Mr. PRICE. No--no difficulty at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then this fellow just put the rifle in the car and drove -off? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a gun case or anything like that? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, if he did, he didn't bring it down to the firing house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have anything he wrapped the rifle in? - -Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of. In fact, the best I remember, when he -got out of the car, he just picked the gun up out of the back seat -because it wasn't wrapped in anything or wasn't in a case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow again? - -Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions--one was 2 weeks later and at turkey -shoot. It was Sunday, though, it was on a Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been in October sometime, then, is that -right? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes, it would. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The last Saturday in September, which is the day you -indicated was the first time you saw him was the 28th of September? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the day they opened. They opened in the -afternoon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And 2 weeks later would have been the 12th of October, -and the Sunday following would be the 13th of October; is that right? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes, somewhere around there. They had a turkey shoot and I -went down to participate in a turkey shoot and he was sitting in Booth -6 or 8 and was firing on a 100-yard line with a heavy bore rifle and I -didn't talk to him then, but the third time that I saw him there I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this time in October, the day of this turkey -shoot, did you see that he had the same rifle you had observed? - -Mr. PRICE. No, I didn't pay too much attention to that. I just saw -him as he came by and he went on down to the booth. There are people -that come down there and some of them have as high as six or seven -different rifles. This Mr. Slack that you just talked to--I noticed him -in particular because he had quite a variety every time he come down -there--he had three or four rifles with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There's nothing that happened on this second time that -you saw that particularly stands out? - -Mr. PRICE. Well--not that I know of personally, but I do understand -there was a hassle between him and Mr. Slack over shooting the wrong -target or something like that. I was over on the opposite end shooting -at a target for the turkey shoot and I didn't pay any attention to -that. That was their business. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that there was a hassle between this guy and -Slack? - -Mr. PRICE. It was Mr. Davis and Mrs. Davis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't remember anything that happened -on this day, as far as this fellow was concerned? - -Mr. PRICE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back to the first time you saw him, was -there anyone there at the rifle range besides this man, Mr. Davis and -yourself? - -Mr. PRICE. At the first time I saw him--me and Mrs. Davis was the only -one there, and we were just fixing to close up and go home and he came -in and, like I said, inquired if there was anybody that could set a -telescope. I took him down to set his telescope and we stayed there -that much longer and Mr. Davis came in and Mrs. Davis went on home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Davis have an opportunity to see this man? - -Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of--she knew there was somebody there but -she was inside the building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was nobody else there? - -Mr. PRICE. There was no one else there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him, the third time? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't remember just exactly when it was, but it -was--it could be anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks later--I don't remember -exactly, but it was on a Sunday, Sunday was the only time I went down -there after that in a good while. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, this is Mr. Davis from the attorney general's -office for the State of Texas. - -Mr. Price has testified that he saw Oswald out at the Sports Drome -Rifle Range. - -Mr. PRICE. I don't remember the exact date on that, but the third time -that I saw him he did have the same gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well---- - -Mr. PRICE. And I asked him if it was still doing the job, if it was -still set, and he said, "It was shooting just fine," and Mr. Slack was -there at the time and at this particular time--that might have been the -day that they had the hassle there, I don't know, but they were sitting -right next to one another--Mr. Slack was in booth 9 and Oswald was in -booth 8, and he commented on his telescope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who commented on the telescope? - -Mr. PRICE. Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Commented to you? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "It's -one of the clearest telescopes that I have ever seen--one of the -brightest." He said, "It's a Japanese scope and I gave $18 for it." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he paid $18 for it? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a 4-power -telescope and he said it was mounted on Redfield mounts. You see, they -make mounts for several different guns, but I don't know one mount from -another myself. I just took his word for it that it was a Redfield -mount, but I looked through the scope and it was very clear. It was -very bright and we compared it with two scopes that Mr. Slack had on -his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth -7--I don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different -American-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. -You could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he paid $18 for the scope or did he -say that he paid $18 for the whole works? - -Mr. PRICE. No; he said he paid $18 for the scope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had it mounted? - -Mr. PRICE. He said that he got the thing from a gunsmith in Cedar Hill -for a debt, the gun, and that he bought the scope and that the gunsmith -mounted it for him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The same gunsmith? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in Cedar Hill? - -Mr. PRICE. It might be; but I don't know of any gunsmith in Cedar Hill. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that he did tell you it was done by a -gunsmith in Cedar Hill? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; then, I questioned him about it, I told him, I said, "I -didn't know there was a gunsmith in Cedar Hill." - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say? - -Mr. PRICE. He said, "Yes; one over there and he owed me some money and -he gave me this gun to settle the debt" and he said, "I bought the -scope and he mounted it and boresighted it." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where this gunsmith was located? - -Mr. PRICE. No; he didn't say anything about the location other than it -was in Cedar Hill. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what the guy's name was? - -Mr. PRICE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him that day or was he by himself? - -Mr. PRICE. I don't know; I don't know whether he was by himself or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody else that seemed to be with him? - -Mr. PRICE. No; there was a lot of people there and everybody was -milling around talking to everybody else and I don't know whether he -was with anyone or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the fellow that was in the booth on the -other side of Mr. Slack, do you remember anything about him--I think -you said. - -Mr. PRICE. All I remember about him was that he was a big fellow with a -long black--it was either black or dark red beard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him at all? - -Mr. PRICE. Other than just to comment on his scope--I didn't have any -conversation at all with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking about Oswald now? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I'm talking about the fellow with the beard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look through his scope too? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to the fellow with the beard? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I suppose--he spoke to all of them--to Oswald and -Slack both, about the clarity of the telescope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when they were talking about the clarity -of Oswald's telescope? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow that you think was Oswald come or -go from the range or did you just see him there then? - -Mr. PRICE. I just saw him there. I just saw him there a couple of times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of times that day? - -Mr. PRICE. No; two separate times, I believe, that Oswald was present -at the range both times that he was, as I remember, but I don't know -whether they were there together or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We are getting our wires crossed--you're talking now -about the fellow with the beard? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You meant that he was there on the range a couple of -different times? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; he was there both times that I saw Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you saw Oswald? - -Mr. PRICE. That I saw Oswald; yes. The second and third time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw them come and go together? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to who came--whether they -came and left together or how they got there, but just that one -particular time--he was the only one there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never noticed how Oswald came to the rifle range and -left the range? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Except that first time you saw him? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anything else happen with relation to this fellow -that you think was Oswald on this third time that you saw him there at -the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. No; it was just a conversation about the telescope is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle closely that day--you must have -handled it in looking through the scope? - -Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; I handled it--it was a Mauser-type rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that--I don't know anything about -rifles? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, it's strictly a military rifle and it's patterned -after the German Mauser. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A bolt-action rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. A bolt action, and the general outline it had--about oh, -possibly a six shot clip that set just ahead of the trigger, and I -understand it was a 6.5 Italian, but at that time I didn't know. I -thought it was a Mauser because there's a friend of mine in Grand -Prairie that has an Argentine Mauser that was 7.6 and it looked very -familiar--they looked a whole lot alike. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to look at any of the writing or -printing that was stamped on the rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, the only thing that I could see on it--I looked for a -brand name so I could see approximately where it was made, and the only -thing that I could find on it was a serial number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look closely for a brand name? - -Mr. PRICE. I didn't examine it too close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number? - -Mr. PRICE. I saw the serial number and the gun wasn't blued at the -time--it had a bright finish on the barrel. It looked like it had been -placed in a lathe and turned down, as far as--well, in an attempt to -sporterize the gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It had been worked on in some manner in an attempt to -sporterize it? - -Mr. PRICE. I thought it had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far did the barrel protrude from the stock of the -rifle, how far did it stick out from the end of the stock? - -Mr. PRICE. Possibly 6 or 8 inches at the most. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the stock been cut back in this attempt to sporterize -the rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I could tell--it was similar to a German -Mauser and they have, you know, they have got a full length, almost a -full length stock with a wooden piece on the top of them also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the wooden piece on top was still on this -rifle--which you did see? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I don't believe it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off as part of the attempt to -sporterize the rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the end of the barrel been cut off? - -Mr. PRICE. I don't know whether it had been cut off or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say the barrel had a shiny finish? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it did at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you two pictures that have been previously -marked "Exhibits 3 and 4" on the deposition of Mr. Greener and ask you -if you recognize that as the rifle that this man had at the range? - -Mr. PRICE. [Examining instruments referred to.] Except for the sling -and the forepiece--I would say they are the same gun. The gun had no -sling on it. It did have the mounts on the side for a sling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't have a sling on it? - -Mr. PRICE. It didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say the forepiece? - -Mr. PRICE. The forepiece is this top wooden piece; of course, that -could be taken off and replaced very easily. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The wooden piece that is on top of the barrel, is that -what you are referring to? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that that was not on the rifle that you saw? - -Mr. PRICE. No; it wasn't. This barrel has a step along in here -somewhere. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A step? - -Mr. PRICE. A step along in here building it up to a larger diameter and -another one here, which you can see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It gets larger by degrees as it comes back toward the -action, is that right? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right, and that's the reason I thought at the time -that it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, but I'm not too -familiar with the foreign made guns and I have learned since then that -all Mauser rifles are that type--they are made that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With these steps as they come back toward the action? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same kind of scope that you saw on the rifle -that Oswald had, the fellow you thought was Oswald? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; it had large receivers at both ends and I believe, -now, I might not be right about the brand name, but I believe it was a -Tascosa, since I examined it--it was a Japanese made scope. They make -several different brands of those things--it could be any of them, but -I believe, as I remember it--it was a Tascosa. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, if you took the sling off this rifle and took the top -wooden piece off the barrel, you think it would look pretty much like -the one that this fellow had? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before that when you examined this -rifle, you looked for the brand name and you weren't able to find a -brand name? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number? - -Mr. PRICE. The serial number was--it was in here, in here, or in -here--I believe it was right along in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the fore part of the action or -the part of the rifle just before the action and immediately under the -front edge of the scope, is that right? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; the largest diameter of the barrel. The clip is here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It fits in just in front of the trigger? - -Mr. PRICE. It fits in just in front of the trigger there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will hand you some pictures and see if you can -recognize any of the people in them as the man you saw at the rifle -range--these have been previously marked "Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 -and 453 through 456." - -Mr. PRICE. [Examining documents referred to.] Yes; this is the only one -that has any similarity I can recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to No. 455--does that look like him? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, these all seem like a photograph of the same fellow, -but this is the only one that has any resemblance, as I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you another picture--it is a photograph of -a street scene with several people in it and I show you two different -pictures and ask you if you notice anybody in there as being the fellow -you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; this one here and this one here--he has a part of the -receding hairline on the right side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? - -Mr. PRICE. This one--right here--he's got a long--kind of a sharp nose. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The pictures that I have just showed you do not have any -marks on them, is that right? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you two other pictures which are the same as -the pictures I just showed you except that they have some green marks -on them. - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first picture I showed you--you have indicated on it -that you recognized the man who has a green mark over his head. - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the identical picture which has been marked as "Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-B," and that is the man that you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the second picture I showed you, you identified as the -man you saw at the rifle range--the man who has a green "X" over him? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. -453-A." I'll show you a picture that has been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit -No. 453-C," and ask you if you recognize that as the man you saw on the -rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any questions about it at all? - -Mr. PRICE. About that picture? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whether that's the fellow? - -Mr. PRICE. Other than the scar or cut on his head, because he didn't -have a cut on his head at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this -fellow you saw was Lee Oswald, did you ever know his name? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I never knew his name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact it was -Oswald--when did you first think that it was Oswald? - -Mr. PRICE. When I saw him on television when they were transferring him -from the Dallas jail. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you recognize him right away as the fellow you -had seen at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; and I contacted the FBI the next day. I debated on it -all night whether I should call them or get mixed up with it or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention it to anyone else, when you saw him on -television? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; my family. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about it with anyone else before you told -the FBI? - -Mr. PRICE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you talk with at the FBI, do you remember? - -Mr. PRICE. Charlie Brown. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's see if we can establish the date of the last time -that you saw this man at the rifle range. Do you recall that the -President was assassinated on Friday, November 22? Can you tell us -approximately how long prior to the assassination this time was that -you saw the man? - -Mr. PRICE. The last time I saw him was a week before Thanksgiving; -Sunday before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before Thanksgiving--that's the last time you -saw him at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. That's the last time that I was down at the rifle range--the -last time I went there until after, oh, a month or so after the -assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it was the Sunday immediately preceding -Thanksgiving? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right; I was down there for the turkey shoot we had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him at the rifle range that day? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the last Sunday before Thanksgiving was after the -assassination. - -Mr. PRICE. It was after? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you saw this man at the rifle range, you saw -Oswald at the rifle range after the assassination? - -Mr. PRICE. I believe I did, because that was the last time that I went -down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the time you saw him the last time and looked through -the scope was the last time you were down at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the last day I was down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say it was the Sunday preceding -Thanksgiving, are you sure about that? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I'm not exactly positive but it was getting close to -Thanksgiving because I was trying to get a turkey. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you saw him after the -assassination? - -Mr. PRICE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure one way or the other? - -Mr. PRICE. I know I haven't seen him after the assassination, but it -was before this assassination--I was down there the last time and I was -thinking it was a week before Thanksgiving, but anyhow, it was before -the assassination, the Sunday before, but they were holding a turkey -shoot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before the assassination would have been the -17th--that would have been two Sundays before Thanksgiving. - -Mr. PRICE. Well, it might be right--that's been so long ago--I'm not -sure about the dates, I don't remember dates too well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you were pretty clear in your mind you didn't see -Oswald after the assassination? - -Mr. PRICE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since? - -Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since. I have been down there quite -often since December. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the rifle range? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And business at the rifle range has fallen off since the -assassination, rather sharply, hasn't it? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, for a while it continued, but it has fallen off very -sharply in the last, oh, in the last month and a half except for -Sundays--they do have good business on Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you any pictures of anybody and ask you -to identify them when they talked to you? - -Mr. PRICE. It was the FBI or Secret Service, one of the two, I believe -it was the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you any of the pictures that we have shown -you this morning? - -Mr. PRICE. They have shown one similar--they had three or four photos -showing this bruise and cut on the forehead. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you a picture of the rifle? - -Mr. PRICE. I believe the Secret Service showed me a picture of the -rifle. I told them the same thing--it wasn't made up exactly the -same--it didn't have the sling, it didn't have the forepiece, like -there had been an attempt to sporterize the gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw this man at the rifle range--do you -remember if there was anybody else there that you know? - -Mr. PRICE. Garland Slack. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw Mr. Slack? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, there was this big fellow--I don't know who he is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I haven't. I understand that Mr. Davis saw him one time -because he called me and told me that he saw him, about 2 weeks ago, -and he turned the license number of the car over to the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, have never seen him since? - -Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else that last day at the rifle range -that saw this man that might be able to identify him other than Mr. -Slack and Mr. Davis? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I know of. There was a lot of people -there--there were 300 or 400 people there. There could be any number of -them that could identify him, but I don't know them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything about this subject that -I haven't asked you about that you think I should have asked you -about--anything you would like to add? - -Mr. PRICE. No; a conversation I had with him about the telescope--I -forgot that. I forgot to mention that--to Mr. Brown when he was out, -and I don't know whether I mentioned that to the Secret Service agent -or not. It will be in his report if I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The conversation about the clarity of the scope? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. He wasn't--he didn't seem to be too talkative to anyone -other than when he was talking about the telescope--he seemed rather -proud of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him talk to this big fellow other than -talk to him about this telescope on this time you have told us about? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I particular remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression as to whether they were -together or not? - -Mr. PRICE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell one way or the other? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to it. There was--I just -thought of it--there was a doctor and his son there at the same time -and they were firing a .308 caliber Winchester, I believe--it was -either a Winchester or a Remington and anyhow, they had identical guns -and they were sharpening up for, I believe, they said they were going -to Canada and they were there at the same time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the Sunday, the last time you saw him? - -Mr. PRICE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names--do you know what their names are? - -Mr. PRICE. No; I don't--I don't know their names--I have heard it but I -don't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember it if I mentioned it to you? - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I might. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the doctor's name--Dr. Wood? - -Mr. PRICE. That don't sound like it--there was a doctor there and his -son--I know they were father and son. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was the son? - -Mr. PRICE. He was in his early twenties, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did they talk to this fellow about the telescope? - -Mr. PRICE. I don't remember whether they had any conversation with him -or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you mention that? - -Mr. PRICE. It's just the fact that they were there at the same time and -I know they were talking to Garland Slack and there is a possibility -that they either observed or talked to Oswald, because he was sitting -next to Slack. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have nothing else that you want to add--I don't -think of any more questions. I want to thank you for coming down -and cooperating with us to the extent that you have and it has been -considerable cooperation because you got very short notice and you came -very early this morning, and we appreciate this and we want you to know -that the Commission appreciates this very much. Thank you. - -Mr. PRICE. Well, I try to help all I can. I don't remember dates too -well--it's been quite some time. I can remember faces but I can't -remember names and dates worth a hoot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we sure appreciate your coming down. - -Mr. DAVIS. Thanks again--we appreciate your coming down. - -Mr. PRICE. You bet. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GARLAND GLENWILL SLACK - -The testimony of Garland Glenwill Slack was taken at 8:30 a.m., on -April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up for just a moment, Mr. Slack. Will you -raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to -give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. SLACK. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated, sir. - -Mr. Slack, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -I have been authorized to take your testimony and the testimony of -other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and -joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the -joint resolution and the Executive order and a copy of the rules of -procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony -of witnesses. - -Actually, Mr. Slack, you are entitled to 3 days' notice before you -would be required to come and testify, and I realize we didn't give you -that much notice but you are also entitled to waive the notice, and I -assume that you will do so since you are here, and I assume that you -are perfectly willing to go ahead, is that correct? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you today about the possibility that you -saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome gun range sometime in the -month of November 1963. Before we get into that, however, I would like -you to state your full name for the record, if you would? - -Mr. SLACK. Garland Glenwill Slack. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work, sir? - -Mr. SLACK. I work for myself. Heating contractors and real estate -development. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. SLACK. 3130 DeLee Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many people do you have working with you? - -Mr. SLACK. Just my wife and I now. We are on a semiretired basis. We -were in the water business and we sold out our water business to the -city of Dallas in June, and we are on a semiretired basis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In June of 1963? - -Mr. SLACK. That's right; this last year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Slack? - -Mr. SLACK. Fifty-nine. No; I am 58. I will be 59, the 9th of May. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mr. Slack? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? - -Mr. SLACK. Two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They live here in Dallas? - -Mr. SLACK. No. Johnny Glenwill is a mechanical engineer. He is working -on a Government project in Richmond. Ind., and Marylyn Slack, she is -the wife of an Air Force man, Vernon Stone, stationed at Burke Burnett. -I have six grandkids. Our profession, we are in the real estate -business. We just sell what we own. We own half a million dollars worth -of property on the--on Military Parkway, and the heating business, we -only do what people can force us to do, our old friends' jobs that we -had put in 30 years ago. And we are on an area selling off all our land -around us. We subdivide and sell off 10 or 12 lots, and when we get -that finished, we subdivide another tract. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sports Drome gun range, Mr. -Slack? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; quite familiar with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns it or runs it? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; and I knew the man before he even took it over, the -manager of the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Mr. Davis before he took it over? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; he ran a ditching machine and dug water ditches for -the water works. I didn't know that until after we got real well -acquainted, and I knew I had seen him, but I never could figure out -until "Doc" Carter and Charlie Brown, they knew my full name and found -out where I worked and who I was, and I said I knew him but where, I -didn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you out at the rifle range at any time in November -of 1963? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; we were there the Saturday before Armistice Day. We -marked it on our calendar. That was November the 9th. We were out there -late in the evening and there were not very many people there, because -we got there in the really closing time. But we didn't even shoot the -rifle because they wanted the people to go home. But we went back -Sunday for this turkey shoot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date? - -Mr. SLACK. Now that was the 10th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went back to the rifle range the immediately -following Sunday, is that right? - -Mr. SLACK. That is right, the 10th. Oswald was there the 10th. He was -there the 17th. The 10th was the turkey shoot. And I contacted him -three or four times trying to get him to pay a dollar and get in the -turkey shoot. Ten men were paying a dollar a shoot, and he commented he -could win the turkey but he didn't have the dollar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was on the 10th, is that right? - -Mr. SLACK. But had no direct contact no more than asked him like the 10 -other fellows I talked to. That was my impression of him. - -The next, the 17th, is where he and I had the run in, where he shot my -target. I paid two bits and put up a target, and before I got ready to -shoot it there would be somebody shoot a hole in it. So Lucille, my -wife, she was with me. She was keeping score. We got to noticing who it -was, and maybe he would shoot anybody's target, and I raised the devil. -I didn't see why I have to pay my two bits and pay for a new target -sheet and I'm shooting No. 9, and the rifle range operator came and -told him not to shoot my target after that, and that is how I remember -the part in his hair and the look on his face. - -And I told him, I said, "You are not going to win no turkey shooting -rapid fire." - -He shot rapid fire about three or four times, and they had a cap -full of shells and they were shooting--I mean he was burning up the -ammunition. And I talked about that going back to Snug Harbor, because -somebody is going to get hurt, because everybody shooting everybody's -target. - -And there was a bunch of ruffians shooting pistols, and there was lots -of people. And I remember when I told him that, he give me a look that -I never would forget it. That is the only reason I remember him when -they showed him on television. It made me sick and I tried to figure -out. It took me a day to figure out where I had seen him. - -I said, Lucille, we own the waterworks and we know a lot of men and do -a lot of things. We have a fish hatchery and we contacted maybe five or -six people we don't know every day, and I didn't sleep at night for 3 -nights until I pinned down where we saw him. - -And I went to the rifle range and these four or five other people knew -he had been there, but they were afraid to say anything about it. - -But when I asked the manager, I said, "Oswald was over here," and he -said, "Yes, I know he was." And they were afraid it would hurt their -business. - -And I told Charlie Brown and Doc Carter where I saw the fellow, and I -think it was; everyone doubts if they knew anything at all on him, so -they met me over there and between the three, they admitted sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this Charlie Brown that you referred to? - -Mr. SLACK. He is the FBI man. He and Doc Carter, they came out two -different times and I talked to them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Carter is also an FBI agent? - -Mr. SLACK. One was Secret Service and one was the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned there were other people out at the range -who saw Oswald. Do you remember their names? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; because I was not taking their names. But I do know -that they got the boy that worked on his rifle scope on Wednesday. That -was in the middle of the week, between the 10th and the 17th. They got -his deposition, because the boy, I know, put his scope on his rifle for -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the boy's name? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't know his name. Never tried to find out his -name. I never talked about it, because Charlie Brown and Doc Carter -asked me not to tell what I knew, and that is all. I had nothing to -gain. In other words, they took it up, what they found, I never knew. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you mentioned this fellow that put the scope on the -rifle, how do you know? Tell us what you know about that? - -Mr. SLACK. Because I read it in the paper about a week afterwards. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge yourself about the scope? - -Mr. SLACK. No; there were so many different fellows working on the -rifle range, there was possibly three or four boys who did it, and I -never really connected which one it would be, because I wasn't doing -any investigating anyway. See what I mean? - -I felt like that knowing the guy and connecting it together, if I just -kept my mouth shut and tried to just remember seeing the fellow, there -was a lot of that done. It was done in our own family. - -In other words, Vernon Stone was with me and Jimbo, he is 12 years -old, the boy, and when it dawned on me where I saw him and I knew that -I had my son-in-law take my gun, my custom-made gun out of Oswald's, -take it out of his hand and put it in the car, because I was afraid he -would steal it, and I told Vernon by long distance on the telephone, -and Vernon did too, and well, he already had made up in his mind that -he never had seen that fellow. He didn't remember anything, and Jimbo -doesn't either. He didn't want to remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the incident about the rifle? Did Oswald have -your rifle at any time? - -Mr. SLACK. He handled my rifle and he handled my targets, that was the -17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald other than---- - -Mr. SLACK. The only time--I didn't specifically say to Oswald. I said -to all the boys, to seven or eight shooters, about that rapid firing -and about shooting other targets rather than the one they bought and -paid for. If they were in chair 7, and there was a number down a 100 -yards, No. 7, he was supposed to shoot No. 7. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you didn't say anything to him? - -Mr. SLACK. That is all I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to see the rifle that he had? - -Mr. SLACK. I absolutely saw the rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle was it? - -Mr. SLACK. It was an Italian type rifle, but it never showed in the -newspapers, a picture of that rifle. - -In other words, if the first picture that came out of the officer -holding the rifle, that was on the floor of the Book Depository, if -that was the gun, I had never seen that gun before, and I know rifles -and I know scopes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference between it and the rifle you saw? - -Mr. SLACK. The one he had was a small three-quarters, about seven -hundred fifty thousandths diameter tube, a small tube no bigger than -your thumb, with the windage gage. They were practicing. It was a cheap -scope. Well, $5.66 scope. But it was sporterized. You cut the wood off -of them. Short barrel. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, this rifle that Oswald had was a -sporterized rifle? It had been rebuilt? - -Mr. SLACK. Just as advertised. I have seen besides the Oswald, I have -friends that have those rifles. I wouldn't shoot a toad frog with one -of them, because I know that they are just junk. - -In other words, you take that rifle as it was manufactured, and you cut -the barrel off 8 inches, and you take all the wood off the top of the -barrel and cut this off here, and varnish it, and have it blued, and it -makes a pretty little gun. It was one that he had wrapped up and handed -over the fence, but they had two other guns that type. They had no -scopes on them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there somebody else? - -Mr. SLACK. That Sunday there sure was. The tall boy had the biggest -feet of any kid I ever saw, and about the time he would go to shoot, he -would kick with his feet, and I said if my feet was that big I would -bump somebody too. - -He was the boy that drove him to that rifle range the 17th. They found -the boy. He had no connection with him except he had driven him there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know they found him? - -Mr. SLACK. I read it in the paper. I don't know what his name was. -Don't know where they found him, but they found him, and he had no -connection with him, no more than I had. He just probably begged a ride -and he took him to the rifle range, but they had three guns. - -Lucille remembers the boy handing the guns over the fence, and they -were throwing the guns in the back of the old model car and taking off -like they did. - -And I recognized that because a gun, a good gun, you are not -supposed--they just threw those old guns in that car, or they took two -of them. Of course, one was wrapped up in a blanket, a dirty looking -old grey blanket that had a red trim, I remember. I remember that, -because we found an old blanket at our house and I told Lucille I was -trying to think, I knew it was something common, this good gun, it was -wrapped up and tied up. - -The sporterized Italian gun was tied up and he handed it over the fence -nicely. And he had a grey and red maroon, looked slick as satin, and -I remember it well, what a gun case--you see everything at a shooting -place--some bring a rifle in a tote sack and--for a gun case. - -The other thing I remember about that blanket he had wrapped around his -gun, it was tied up with a rag string that was torn about an inch and a -half wide out of a filling station type wipe cloth, a ribbon, pink, and -he had torn it up and--to use as a rag string. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of car these fellows drove? - -Mr. SLACK. No; I couldn't remember it, and Lucille couldn't except it -was an older model car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sedan? - -Mr. SLACK. A four-door sedan, and it was a dark color, and he left -there like a crazy bunch of hoodlums. And Lucille would remember that -because she made a remark to me. You know how boys take off and make -the dust fly. - -Well we had--in other words, without having some reason, you wouldn't -notice what kind of car it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture of a rifle. Two pictures -that have previously been marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition -of Mr. Greener, and ask you if that looks like the rifle they had at -the rifle range? - -Mr. SLACK. I don't remember a carrying strap on it, this rifle here. -Of course, that is something you use to carry the gun, if you take it. -That could be it, that is right, with the sling off. When I saw the gun -the sling was not on it. - -I don't think it had the wood up above the barrel, because when it is -sporterized, as I remember, the whole barrel is painted blue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there was not as much wood to the front of the rifle -on the one you saw at the range, is that right? - -Mr. SLACK. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the scope? Was it the same kind of scope? - -Mr. SLACK. I can say no. Pictures do something to you, but that scope -seems like it is a 1-inch, that scope, according to the size of the gun -and proportions of sizes. This is the same gun upside down, the other -side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are pretty clear this isn't the rifle because -of the wood that protrudes? - -Mr. SLACK. This rifle had the barrel cut off. I know this rifle right -here. This is proportionately, Mr. Liebeler---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon? - -Mr. SLACK. No; the sight is, the open sight is out on it since it has -been cut off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The one that you saw at the rifle range had been cut off, -is that correct? - -Mr. SLACK. It had been cut off, and I will swear it had been reblued, -and it did not have the front ramp sight of that rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that the rifle you saw at the rifle range is not the -same rifle as the picture I have just shown you, is that right? - -Mr. SLACK. Now they had two other rifles that would fit that. They were -not sporterized. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But they didn't have scopes on them? - -Mr. SLACK. They didn't have scopes on them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that the rifle you saw at the range did -have the barrel cut off and didn't have the sight on the front so it -couldn't have been this rifle? - -Mr. SLACK. I would say that. I would say that is not it, because the -sporterized rifle, the shiny new one, I don't think it had the metal -binding on it. The top wood, so this holds the top wood. Now, that is -the type of rifle, see what I mean. But I really notice things about -rifles like a jewelry man or a lady would about the setting of a ring. -I wouldn't know--but I know rifles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But this was the same general type of rifle as the one -you saw that had been sporterized and had the wood cut off? - -Mr. SLACK. This is a magazine. You recognize one of them a mile off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures of a man or some men that -have been previously marked Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through -456. I want to ask you if this looks like either one of the men that -you saw at the rifle range on the 17th of November? - -Mr. SLACK. The jacket was the first thing I remembered. When they -described the jacket in the paper before I even looked at the fellow, -because the man pulled a jacket off and put it on top of a load of sand -you used it for a pad to shoot from---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the guy you saw? Does anyone in those pictures -look like him? - -Mr. SLACK. Those heavy eyebrows and that part in the hair, but -apparently he had more hair. Maybe he got a haircut afterwards. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who had more hair, the fellow? - -Mr. SLACK. The picture. The man I saw in this picture right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man you saw had more hair? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; he sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that any of these pictures are a picture of -the man that you saw at the rifle range that day? - -Mr. SLACK. The difference in position he was in and everything, that -looked like him, but he wasn't that sleepy-eyed. He was a cocky guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit 453? - -Mr. SLACK. When he looked at me. I don't see how in the world he could -ever get a pleasant look on his face like this picture here. Probably -he could, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the picture 456 looks a little more -pleasant than the fellow you remember seeing at the rifle range, is -that right? - -Mr. SLACK. He sure does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you another picture, Mr. Slack, that has been -previously marked as Pizzo's 453-C, and ask you if that looks like the -fellow you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. SLACK. That is him. I would know that baby face and that chin, and -he had a--I remember people, but no names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the hair? - -Mr. SLACK. That is the man I saw at the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure about that? - -Mr. SLACK. I know it is. In other words, just like if I saw you -tomorrow. Because his eyes were deep like a man that was, that wears -highly magnified glasses and then doesn't have his glasses on. And he -had that deep--that is the man we saw out there. That is the man. And I -would remember him 20 years from now, just over that one incident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that guy's picture in the paper? - -Mr. SLACK. But he don't have a good--he didn't have a very good -likeness of him, like the paper pictures. That was him as I saw him at -the rifle range, and as I saw him I second before. No, one-tenth of a -second before he was shot. That is the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on television? - -Mr. SLACK. On television. And I saw when they were transferring him -even before that. And I told Lucille, I told my wife, wait a minute, -I've got to see the side of his face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you recognize the side of his face? - -Mr. SLACK. But not positive enough until I got to see him at the time -he was shot. You see, you read the papers and you get to where you -imagine things and you find yourself imagining that you saw somebody, -and I never had anything that made me as sick for 3 days. Absolutely -made me sick of stretching my brain of trying to figure out what -contact we had had with the guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. Take a look at that and see if -you can recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mr. SLACK. The fifth fellow from the left, because I saw the side of -his face quite a bit at the rifle range. He has rather a long nose and -long chin and a high forehead. In other words, that was the thing about -the man that I would remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. It is the same picture that I -just showed you except that it has a green line over the fellow that -you have indicated, does it not? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, it is like this picture. Those are the front, no, he -doesn't have a part. He didn't have that hair. I would remember his -hair. And he had the hair that grew down his neck, all the way down -into his jacket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say this fellow here in the picture, the fifth fellow -from the left is not the person? - -Mr. SLACK. That is the fellow. As I remember, this is the fellow that -is under the green mark. But seemed like he had more hair. You see, I -shot in one chair. I looked at the side of that fellow quite a bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think the fellow you saw at the rifle range had more -hair than the fellow with the green mark? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, the wind blew and he was bareheaded. I guess -he had a haircut in this picture here. He had quite a bit of hair on -his back and on his neck like me. I need a haircut. But I remember, -because on the television the hair was also down on his neck. Even more -so than he shows in the picture there. Probably taken at different -times and under different conditions. Just like this picture here, he -is a pleasant looking fellow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow looks more pleasant than the guy you saw? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, at times, a fellow can be sorry on the world -and still there would be a little fun come into him sometime. And he -had big ears. His ears stood out, what I mean. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The picture that you are looking at is 453-B, Pizzo's -exhibit, that we have been referring to. I don't think I have any more -questions, Mr. Slack. I want to thank you very much for coming in and -cooperating with us the way you have. I know we gave you very little -time and we appreciate it very much. - -Mr. SLACK. We had already forgotten everything about it, and we figured -it was, well, it was just some unpleasant memory, and it couldn't have -shocked me. Now this newspaper, Gruber, was a press, a Washington -pressman, was he some of your bunch? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name? - -Mr. SLACK. Gruber. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about him? - -Mr. SLACK. He is the fellow that came to see me about 3 weeks ago. He -called me three or four times and give me a lot of trouble, and I give -him to understand that I didn't want to talk with him, because the -newspaper had, I thought, made too big a show out of it. - -And they used my name and used my address. They didn't put my picture, -with the assassination, or the picture, but I expected it any time to -come out, but I have a good friend with the Times Herald, Mr. Albert -Jackson, and I called Albert and I told him not to send his men because -I was not talking to the newspaper. My phone was tapped and they came -out the next day and everything that I told Albert, the newspaperman, -and I told him that, because I didn't want it to get in the paper. He -never put it in their paper. My own friend never got anything, but the -news, they got it all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What made you think your telephone was tapped? - -Mr. SLACK. I think it was because they had things in the paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think tapped it, the newspaper people? - -Mr. SLACK. The FBI and the Secret Service, they didn't tap it. They -don't do things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service doesn't? - -Mr. SLACK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the FBI? - -Mr. SLACK. They said they did not, and I blamed it on the newspaper. -And they came and made a television picture of me and gave me an -interview. And I wanted to know what identification they had and who -they were with, and they fooled around and made about a 3-minute -conversation and they never did show it, but it never was shown -anyplace. Just newshounds. And they put up a big front that it was the -Warren Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they? - -Mr. SLACK. The television guys from Fort Worth, and they were in such a -big hurry to leave, they just took my picture and took off. They had 15 -minutes to get to Fort Worth, and I never heard any more of it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think they had anything to do with the Warren -Commission. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. HOMER WOOD - -The testimony of Dr. Homer Wood was taken at 3 p.m., on April 1, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Wood, would you please rise and raise your right -hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Dr. WOOD. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a -member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating -the assassination of President Kennedy. - -I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission -pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I -understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week. Did you get a letter -from him? - -Dr. WOOD. We each had an airmail letter from Washington, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Mr. Rankin included a copy of the -Executive order to which I have first referred as well as a copy of the -joint resolution of Congress and the rules of procedure relating to the -taking of testimony by the Commission, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee -Harvey Oswald was at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis -Street in Dallas, Tex., sometime during November 1963--before going -into the details of that particular incident, please state your full -name for the record. - -Dr. WOOD. Homer Wood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a dentist, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state briefly for us your educational -background. - -Dr. WOOD. Well, I had 2 years of predental at Southern Methodist -University and 4 years at Baylor University College of Dentistry, -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native Texan? - -Dr. WOOD. I am a native Texan, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Dallas? - -Dr. WOOD. Born in Besse May, Tex. It is a dead town now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Dr. WOOD. July 4, 1910. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing dentistry? - -Dr. WOOD. Since 1938. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is advised that sometime during November -of 1963, you and your son, whose name I understand is Sterling Charles -Wood, went to the Sports Drome Rifle Range, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. That is correct. If I recall correctly, it was on November -16. That was a Saturday afternoon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear in your own mind that it was a Saturday -that you went to the range? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only time that you went to the rifle range -during November? - -Dr. WOOD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time of day did you go out there? - -Dr. WOOD. I was listening to the Southwest Conference football game. My -boy kept asking me to "Hurry, daddy, I want to go to try my scope out -on my gun," and I listened to half of the game. I presume when we got -out there it was around 3 o'clock in the afternoon. At the rifle range, -I am not definite, but it was between 3 and 5. We left before 5. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Left the range before 5? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get an opportunity to finish listening to the -game? - -Dr. WOOD. No; we didn't hear any more of the game. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened after you arrived at the range? - -Dr. WOOD. Well, the range was pretty busy because it was just before -deer season and most of the fellows out there was sighting in their -scope, and we waited a short while to get a place for my boy to sit -down to sight in his scope. Then when he did--now do you want me to -start here with Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want you tell me just what happened. - -Dr. WOOD. Okay. My boy was shooting his rifle, and there was a fellow -sitting to his right. I thought it was an offbrand gun. It wasn't -shooting like the other rifles there. When he would fire the rifle, -at the end of the barrel there would be a ball of fire coming out at -the end of the barrel, and that is what attracted my attention to this -fellow. - -When I said to my son, I said, "Son, be careful, I am afraid that gun -is going to blow up." And I was kind of laughing and joking around with -the other fellow that was waiting in--waiting to sight in their scope -and I would hand him cotton and I would say, "Get ready, this fellow is -getting ready to shoot this 105 howitzer." And I said to my son, step -back, or lean over, or be careful, and he said, "Daddy, that is all -right, it is an Italian carbine." - -So they fired several rounds, and after they would fire three or four -rounds, then the keeper out there would say let's go look at our -targets, and we would go down and I would look at my boy's target and -he wasn't doing so good, but the second round we went down there and we -noticed this fellow's target to our right, and my boy made a statement, -"Daddy, this fellow is not having much trouble." So I did notice his -target, and most of his shots was within the target, but there were a -few that was outside the target, from an inch to 2 inches outside of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Outside the bulls-eye? - -Dr. WOOD. Bulls-eye. And that is as far as--do you want me to get into -the Oswald deal now, or you just want me to go on and tell what he did, -or are you going to ask me some questions? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you first of all, did you talk to this -fellow at all? - -Dr. WOOD. I didn't say a word to him, but my son did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you at that time what he had said to -the fellow? - -Dr. WOOD. He didn't tell me at that time, no, sir. He told me later on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you after the assassination, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes; after the assassination he told me that. Yes, sir; that -is true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you what he said to the fellow after the -assassination. Now you mentioned previously that when you warned your -son to be careful of that rifle because of your fear that it would -blow up and that your son had told you, don't worry, it is an Italian -carbine, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. Well---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is substantially what he had mentioned to you at -the range, that it was Italian? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your son spoke to this man -before he told you it was an Italian carbine, or not? - -Dr. WOOD. I feel sure he did not speak to the man before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your son's statement was based only on his observation of -the rifle, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. On his observation of the rifle and what he knows about guns, -which is quite a bit. He studies about guns a lot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think your son would be qualified to make a -statement in this regard? - -Dr. WOOD. I feel sure more so than I am. I know very little about guns, -but he knows quite a bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe this fellow leave the rifle range before -you? - -Dr. WOOD. I did not, but I didn't notice when the change was made, but -my son said he did. He noticed that the fellow came there after my boy -had sat down and this fellow had left before my boy had finished. The -reason for that was, that my boy was having some trouble sighting in -his scope, and he asked the keeper to help him. This fellow was there -less than most of the fellows that was out there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the keeper? - -Dr. WOOD. I do not. He was a tall fellow; all I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Slender? - -Dr. WOOD. Slender, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Floyd Davis? - -Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he might have been the fellow that was helping my -son, I don't know. But I recognized his picture later in the paper -when it came out, and--that this fellow was there practicing, and I -recognized the fellow as the fellow that helped my son. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Helped your son sight in his scope? - -Dr. WOOD. Helped my son sight in his scope, and I don't know who owned -the range. I have no idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time subsequent to that that you were -able to identify this man that you had seen there as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Dr. WOOD. Would you repeat that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw this man, you left the rifle range. Then -later on the next Friday the President was assassinated, and at -sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up Lee Harvey Oswald -with this man that you saw at the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when and how you did that? - -Dr. WOOD. I saw him flashed on the television screen at home several -times. They would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring -him back to his cell. This particular time I mentioned to my wife, -I said to her, "Honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was -sitting next to Sterling at the rifle range. But I am not going to say -anything to Sterling because I want to see if he recognizes him and if -he thinks it was." - -Well, I would say within 30 minutes or an hour he was flashed back -on the screen and he said to me, "Daddy, that is the fellow that was -sitting next to me out on the rifle range." - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you, independently of your son, first noticed the -resemblance between Oswald---- - -Dr. WOOD. And mentioned it to my wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Sterling was not in your presence at at time? - -Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he was not in the room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then later he came into the room, saw Oswald's picture on -the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at -the rifle range that previous Saturday, is that correct? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not mention to Sterling in any way the -resemblance between Oswald and the fellow at the rifle range prior to -the time he mentioned it himself? - -Dr. WOOD. No. They mentioned on the newscast that he was an ex-Marine. -Well, I figured an ex-Marine would be a husky sort of fellow, and I -kept watching him, and he didn't look like a Marine to me. But he was a -Marine but he didn't seem to me to have the build. - -He looked to me as a fairly frail man, not too strong, and that is the -reason I wasn't thinking too much about it until he was flashed on the -screen and then his profile just came to me that that was the man that -was out at the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then after you had had this conversation -and Sterling's observation? - -Dr. WOOD. I said I think I should report that to either the Dallas -police or FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do so? - -Dr. WOOD. I did not until the following Monday. On Sunday, the next -morning--this was Saturday night--on Sunday morning we went to church -and my wife said after church, let's go down and look at the place -where the President was assassinated. We haven't been down, so we went -down there and we looked over the area and we walked back to our car, -and I would say it was between 12 and 1 o'clock, and I turned on the -radio in the car and it said Oswald had been shot. - -So I said to my wife, well, I don't know whether it will do any -good now to turn it in or not, and I didn't turn it in. But later -on, on Monday I had a fellow in my office who works for the State -comptroller's office and told him about this incident and he said, "Dr. -Wood, I certainly would turn it in. Anything that you could do will -help." - -So after he left the office, I called the FBI and told them I thought I -had some information that might be of importance to them concerning the -Oswald case, and they talked to me, and this was on Monday. And I told -them I was leaving town. I think I told them, I am not positive, but we -went out, me and my wife and son went out to Uvalde deer hunting, and -while we were out there--this was on, we went out Tuesday, and we were -there Wednesday night, and Will Fritz of the Dallas police force called -me and questioned me about my son and me and were we sure, and I said -we were fairly sure that it was, and he wanted to know when we were -coming back, and I said that me and my wife were thinking about going -to Mexico so it will be Sunday before we return. And he said, when you -return would you please call me. - -Well, that was on the following Monday, and I called Will Fritz and -he had two men from homicide come out and talk to me. And on my lunch -hour, two FBI agents came out and talked with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this on Monday, too? - -Dr. WOOD. It was on Monday. I believe. I am fairly sure it was on -Monday because I called as soon as I came back, and I recall that when -I called, there was the homicide, two officers from Will Fritz' office -came, and as well as I remember, they called my office girl, the FBI -called my office girl and asked could they come out to see me, and they -came out around my lunch hour, and I talked to the FBI at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the agents that spoke to you? - -Dr. WOOD. I don't remember the agents, sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that this fellow was firing -closely enough so that you could be able to identify it? - -Dr. WOOD. I don't think I could identify it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or the Dallas police show you any pictures of -Oswald when they interviewed you? - -Dr. WOOD. Both the Dallas police and the FBI, I think, showed me the -same photograph that each showed me as they came out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you identified that man in that photograph as the -fellow you had seen at the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. I put it in this category that I couldn't be absolutely -positive, but in my mind I was positive that it was Oswald that I saw -out at the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They showed pictures also to your son, did they not? - -Dr. WOOD. He said they did; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't there when they did? - -Dr. WOOD. They interviewed my son at school. The Secret Service came -out to his school, I think, a couple of times to see him, and an -officer from Will Fritz' office came out once or twice to school to see -him, and the FBI came out, I think, at the house on two occasions just -before I got off from the office, and I never was there when my son saw -either of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that the FBI subsequently showed your son a -picture of the rifle used to assassinate the President? - -Dr. WOOD. I knew this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that your son indicated that -the picture that the FBI showed them was not the same rifle that was in -possession of this man at the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. I am not aware of that. I am aware of the fact that he--he -thinks he said that the rifle they first showed him was the rifle, but -the scope was not the same scope that he showed them. I think that is -what my boy said. I don't know for sure whether they showed him two -different pictures or not, but one time they came out, the FBI come and -stayed a very short while and said is this the scope. That is the way I -understood my wife to say, and my boy said no, that is not the scope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously -been marked as Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, and ask you -if any of the pictures I show you resemble the men who you saw at the -rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. I pick out someone nearest resembling--is that what you are -asking me? Or is the likeness of either of these to him? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, is this the fellow you saw at the rifle range, do -you think? Are any of these pictures of the man you saw at the rifle -range? - -Dr. WOOD. May I ask this, that the profile that I got of the man, as -I told the FBI, was not a profile like this. It was a lateral side -profile, because I was facing in this angle, and I said I could only -describe him from a lateral view and from the shoulder up, even though -I walked down to the rifle range to the target with him. I did not pay -a bit of attention to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So would the picture here, Commission Exhibit 454, be a -lateral view of the type you describe. - -Dr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is too much from the front? - -Dr. WOOD. Well, now, that is a right lateral view. I assume his was a -left lateral view. But still I would say that wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You would say what? - -Dr. WOOD. That was not the man that I saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was not the man you saw? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been previously marked -as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize any of the -individuals in that photograph as the man you saw in the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man holding the paper facing me with a green mark -above his head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With the green mark, with two marks above him? There are -two different marks and you indicated the---- - -Dr. WOOD. The green marking above this fellow right here [pointing]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That has an "X"-shaped mark. - -Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit 453-B, and ask you if any of the individuals there appear to be -the same as the man you saw at the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man with one green marking above the top of his head -is the--I would identify as the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo -Exhibit 453-C, and ask you if you recognize that individual as the man -you saw at the rifle range? - -Dr. WOOD. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it? - -Dr. WOOD. In my mind there is no doubt. If I just had to swear on a -Bible, I couldn't, but in my mind, it is him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, you realize that you are testifying -under oath. - -Dr. WOOD. I know he is a dead man and all that, but I must say in my -own mind it is him, I am positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures which have been marked -Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener, and ask you if you -recognize either of those pictures as the rifle in the possession of -the man at the range? - -Dr. WOOD. I didn't observe the rifle close enough to say either one of -these was or wasn't. I only observed the way the rifle was fired, so I -couldn't identify either one as being the rifle that assassinated, or -the man that was shooting out at the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are unable to identify that as being the rifle either -one way or the other? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was at the range when -you observed this fellow who also observed him? - -Dr. WOOD. Yes. I told the FBI of Kenney Longley. Dr. Longley's son, a -dental surgeon, a friend of mine, was talking to me at the time they -were shooting. He was getting ready to take over one of the booths, and -I understand that later the FBI went out to interview him. - -And he had two friends with him. They interviewed them too, but I have -forgotten their names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they observe this individual also? - -Dr. WOOD. Other than what I have said, the conversation that I was -concerned about, and I handed them each cotton to put in their ears -when he fired this rifle, and I don't know how much observation they -made of the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with them the question of whether or -not this man was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Dr. WOOD. I haven't seen--I will retract that statement. I had seen Dr. -Longley's son. He had a front tooth knocked out and Dr. Longley brought -him over to my office, but nothing was mentioned about Oswald or this -man at the rifle range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Longley and those two friends are the only two men that -you know of that were also at the range at that time? - -Dr. WOOD. The only people I know. I couldn't identify another soul that -was out there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't discussed this either with Longley or his two -friends? - -Dr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. If -you can think of anything else that you think ought to be on the record -about this matter, I want you to feel free to go right ahead and say -it. We want to get everything that you know about this. - -Dr. WOOD. You mean help you out in the case or any feelings in the case? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; on the question of whether this was Oswald out there -at the rifle range, or anything else, if you know any other facts about -the case, we want to know those, too. - -Dr. WOOD. I have elaborated pretty much to you about what I saw. I was -a great admirer of the President and I felt that if there was anything -I could do to help clarify or clear up the case, I was willing to do -it, and that is why I reported. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much -for the cooperation you have shown us, Dr. Wood. - -Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF STERLING CHARLES WOOD - -The testimony of Sterling Charles Wood was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up, Sterling, and raise your right hand? -Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WOOD. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Sterling, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. - -Mr. WOOD. Glad to meet you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I -have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses such as you by -the Commission, pursuant to provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I believe that Mr. Rankin sent a letter to you and to your father last -week, and that he enclosed copies of those two documents along with a -copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony by the Commission -or staff members. Do you remember getting that letter? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but I didn't read those rules. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is all right. Your father got them and you have them -still in your possession? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? - -Mr. WOOD. Sterling Charles Wood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? - -Mr. WOOD. Thirteen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you go to school? - -Mr. WOOD. Boude Storey Junior High. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. WOOD. 1326 Alaska Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that you and your father -went out to the Sports Drome Gun Range on West Davis at about 8000 West -Davis sometime in November, is that correct? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that you went out there? - -Mr. WOOD. It was the Saturday before. It was 6 days before the -President was killed. It was a Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday before he was assassinated? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went out to the range, just you and your father? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me about what time you got out there? - -Mr. WOOD. I would say it was about 1:30, right after my daddy was off -from work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay out there? - -Mr. WOOD. About an hour. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went out there to sight your rifle in for deer -hunting? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go deer hunting? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a deer? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; saw one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a shot at it? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; I think I hit him and he jumped the fence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you and your father saw a man out -there firing in the booth next to you? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what happened right there at the rifle -range that day? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I came out there. I had been shooting for about 10 -or 15 minutes and he came up next to me and started shooting, and he -only shot about 8 or 10 times and I noticed every time he got through -shooting he would take the breech and open it up and put the shell -in his pocket. We went down to check our target and I remembered -that his was almost always in the bull's-eye. And as we came back to -shoot again, I talked to him and I said, "Sir, is that a 6.5 Italian -carbine?" And he said, "Yes, sir." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask him that question? - -Mr. WOOD. Because I read gun books and I was pretty sure that was a 6.5 -Italian carbine and I wanted to make sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told your father about this, that that was an -Italian carbine? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you express it? - -Mr. WOOD. I said, "Daddy, it looks like a 6.5 Italian carbine," and I -asked him if it was a four-power scope, because it was funny looking, -it wasn't American, and he said, "Yes, it was." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you talked to your father about this fellow or this -rifle before you talked to this guy? - -Mr. WOOD. I think I said that it looked like an Italian make gun, to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to your father? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember why you mentioned that particular gun to -your father? - -Mr. WOOD. Well, call it an Army rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? - -Mr. WOOD. Well, you can tell it had been scratched up and it was a -surplus gun. It was probably--you can tell it was probably used in the -war. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else peculiar about this rifle that -made you mention it to your father? - -Mr. WOOD. It had a sawed-off barrel, shorter barrel than most rifles -were. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did the barrel of the rifle stick out? - -Mr. WOOD. About that far out of the stock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that was about 3 or 4 inches? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the barrel was sawed off? - -Mr. WOOD. You could tell it was shorter than most military rifles, and -everytime he shot, a spit of fire would come out and I could feel the -heat when he shot every time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a rifle do you have, Sterling? - -Mr. WOOD. Winchester 30-30. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about how long it is? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea. It is a shorter rifle than -most of them, which is 30-30. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long a yardstick is? Can you visualize -that in your mind? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your rifle longer or shorter than a yardstick? - -Mr. WOOD. It is about, I would say it was shorter than a yardstick, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the rifle that this fellow had, was it longer -or shorter? - -Mr. WOOD. Longer than a yard stick, because it is--a Winchester is a -small gun to start off with, and a military rifle is a pretty long -rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This one, even though the barrel was sawed-off, you think -it was still longer than a yardstick? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you guess about how much longer than a yardstick it -would be? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; it wasn't too much bigger than a yardstick. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to this fellow any more than just ask him -what you have already told us? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he said only two words to you? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the range before you or after? - -Mr. WOOD. Before I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him go? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did he go? - -Mr. WOOD. He left with a man in a newer model car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the model? - -Mr. WOOD. No, I didn't. They went into the parking lot. They went -around and I heard the car door slam and they took off, but it was a -newer model. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car? - -Mr. WOOD. It was a Ford, if I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About what year would you say? - -Mr. WOOD. I don't remember. I just knew it was a newer model car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible or station wagon? - -Mr. WOOD. It was a hardtop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A hardtop? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About this other fellow that this guy was with, was he a -big man or just---- - -Mr. WOOD. About the same size this man was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How tall would you say this man was? - -Mr. WOOD. Oh, about 5'9". - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 5'9"? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the FBI talked to you about this once before or a -couple of times, didn't they? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you now how this fellow left the range? - -Mr. WOOD. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you, did he go and get in a car or did he -leave with somebody else? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember them asking you this? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him? - -Mr. WOOD. I told him they left in a newer model car. He had to go -around through the main office because that was 30 yards down and he -had to come around and he left in a newer model car with this man, and -he wasn't driving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That the man who you saw firing was not driving? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI what kind of car it was? - -Mr. WOOD. I think I told him, I am pretty sure it was a Ford. That is -what I remember, because I like Fords and I remember what a Ford looks -like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that this fellow who you saw -shooting this rifle left with another man? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear about that? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you also told that the fellow you saw shooting the -rifle wasn't driving the car, is that right? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now later on the next week after the President was -assassinated, did you see a picture of this man or observe his picture -on television or the radio or newspaper, or see him in any other way? - -Mr. WOOD. Are you talking about Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man that was firing at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. That is what made me notice him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. WOOD. The man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. You -could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more -than I did anybody else. So when I saw the picture on television that -night, I was sure it was him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke to your father about it? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; we went to get a paper about the assassination and I -said, "Dad, that does look like the man to me." And he said it did, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your father mention it to you first, or did you -mention it to your father? - -Mr. WOOD. I mentioned it to him first. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned it to him first? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your mother there when you mentioned it to him? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; she was out. We had gone out to get a paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first time you saw this guy's picture was in the -newspaper, is that right? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; I kept remembering how he looked and I finally told my -dad. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told your father that this guy you saw at the rifle -range looked like Oswald, based on the picture of Oswald in the -newspaper? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever read in the newspaper anything about -Oswald's ability to drive an automobile? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I didn't read anything about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald could drive a car -or not? - -Mr. WOOD. I think he could, because my mother told me something about -him going to Mexico or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that your mother told you something about -Oswald going to Mexico, is that right? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never were aware of the fact or heard that Oswald -could not drive a car, is that right? - -Mr. WOOD. Do you mean--I didn't get what you said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever tell you that Oswald couldn't drive a -car? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know that now? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I thought he could drive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this other man that he was with fire a rifle at all? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, I want to show you some pictures of some men, -and these pictures have previously been marked as Commission's Exhibit -451 and 453 through 456, sir. There are five of them. I want you to -look at them and tell me if any of the pictures look like the guy you -saw at the rifle range that you think was Oswald? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. None of those look like him? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not -yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me -if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle -range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? - -Mr. WOOD. That one with the paper in his hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another picture that has been -marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, -isn't it? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head -and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and -see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle -range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that? - -Mr. WOOD. That man right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This one right here? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I -showed you. - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man that you pointed out as being the individual -that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head. There -are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as -opposed to one mark over here. - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo -Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at -the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that picture before? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One like it? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has -been one like that in the paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald? - -Mr. WOOD. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw -at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you two pictures that have been previously marked -as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. Tell me whether -that is the rifle the man had? - -Mr. WOOD. It does look like the rifle, but the scope looks a little -funny to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What looks funny about the scope? - -Mr. WOOD. Because I seem to remember when I got a glance, it seemed to -get bigger at the end and get smaller as it went along. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that is not the scope that was on the rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure, but I would say that looks like a foreign -made scope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The one in this picture does? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty sure in your own mind that the scope -that was on the rifle at the range was not an American scope, is that -correct? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; it looked Japanese. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, you noticed how the sling is mounted on this -rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is mounted on the side on the butt, is it not? And on -the side of the rifle, also? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the sling was on the rifle that you saw -at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure. It was either mounted underneath or on the -side. I am not sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't remember one way or the other? - -Mr. WOOD. I think it was mounted on the side. I am not too sure. I -wouldn't want to be positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you remember that the FBI showed you a picture of -a rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same picture? - -Mr. WOOD. As I remember, it looks like the same picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that the weapon in the picture that -they showed you was not the one you observed out at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. I said that was not the one. It didn't have this background -in it. It's a picture that he showed me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same picture the FBI showed you? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, the FBI did show you a picture of a rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; it was an enlarged picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them that that was the rifle that the man -you think is Oswald had, or was not the rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. I told them that was not the rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told them that was not the rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The rifle in this picture, is this the same rifle? Can -you tell, or a different rifle that was in the picture that the FBI -showed you? - -Mr. WOOD. You mean to say--I don't know what you said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent showed you a picture of a rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the rifle that he showed you, the picture that he -showed you, the picture of the same rifle as is in the picture we have -here on the desk, or were they different rifles or can you tell? - -Mr. WOOD. I think they were the same rifles, except the rifle that he -showed me didn't have that scope. I told them that that wasn't the -scope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you told me just now? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes; so it would be a different rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question is this. Note that I am not asking you now -whether this rifle is the same as the one that the fellow at the rifle -range had, or whether or not the rifle that the FBI showed you, or the -picture that the FBI showed you, was a picture of the same rifle that -Oswald had on the rifle range--I just want to know now whether you can -tell me whether the picture that I am showing you now is a picture of -the same rifle as the FBI showed you. - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you still say now that the scope on this rifle -doesn't look like the scope the guy at the rifle range had? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But this is the same scope as in the picture that the FBI -showed you? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you about the sling mount on the rifle? - -Mr. WOOD. I think they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them about that? - -Mr. WOOD. I think I told them it was mounted on the underneath, I am -not too sure. I wasn't too positive then when I told them that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure now? - -Mr. WOOD. I am not sure now, because I didn't have that long of glance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did the FBI agent talk to you? Did he try to convince -you that it wasn't the same rifle, or just show the picture and let you -tell? - -Mr. WOOD. Let me tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't try to convince you one way or the other? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; he didn't try to force me one way or the other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the scope that we have here on this rifle is enlarged -at the forward end, is it not? - -Mr. WOOD. It is big towards the muzzle of the rifle; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the scope was on the rifle that you saw -at the rifle range, too? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but it was the same size as that, and it got -smaller as it came to a point, but it was a big point. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, this one here is big at the back and it gets -smaller in the middle, and then gets bigger at the front end. Now tell -me the difference between this one and the one that you saw at the -rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. This was bigger and it got smaller as it went along. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't get bigger at the forward end? - -Mr. WOOD. No; I didn't get that good a glance, but what I saw is what I -told you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, you are pretty sure in your own mind that that -was Lee Oswald that you saw at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Kenney Longley? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he out there that day? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he see this guy? - -Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about it? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I think I did, because I was standing, he was -waiting in a booth to shoot. They all were filled up, and he stood back -there and was noticing it, too. He noticed the fire coming out of the -gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you talked to Kenney Longley about this -fellow at the rifle range since the assassination? - -Mr. WOOD. I haven't seen him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else out there at the range that day -that you knew? - -Mr. WOOD. A friend of mine, Charles McDowell, but he was busy gathering -shells. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't see this guy, as far as you know? - -Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him. I don't think so. Maybe he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McDowell about it since the -assassination? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask McDowell whether he saw this fellow? - -Mr. WOOD. No, sir; but I am pretty sure, because he was right next to -him, and he was down under the booth gathering shells. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you have talked to McDowell about this guy -at the rifle range? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you talk to him about? - -Mr. WOOD. I talked to him about, I told him that very same night I -talked to my daddy, and I called him on the phone and told him that I -saw that man out there, and we talked about the President's death, and -that was all. He said he remembered him, too, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you thought that the fellow at the -rifle range was Oswald? - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. WOOD. He didn't know, and he wasn't too sure, but he wasn't as -close as I was to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where does this fellow live? - -Mr. WOOD. McDowell? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. WOOD. Marsalis, the first street over from where I do. I don't know -the address. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Sterling, I don't think I have any more questions -that I can think of right now, but I want to say this: If you can think -of anything else about this fellow that I haven't asked you about, or -that you think you should tell me, I want you to tell me now so we can -get it on the record. - -Mr. WOOD. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he -left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember -looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his -target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I -have to tell you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty good shot? - -Mr. WOOD. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Sterling, I want to thank you very much. You have -been very helpful. I hope we weren't too hard on you. The Commission -wants you to know that it appreciates the cooperation you have given to -us. - -Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much. - -Mr. WOOD. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF THERESA WOOD - -The testimony of Theresa Wood was taken at 4 p.m., on April 1 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. WOOD. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am -a staff attorney on the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Mr. Rankin wrote a letter to your -husband and your son last week, telling them that he wanted to question -them. I have just concluded questioning both of them. I would like to -ask you a couple of questions about some points that came up during -their statements. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, for the record, please? - -Mrs. WOOD. My married name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; your married name. - -Mrs. WOOD. Theresa Wood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the wife of Dr. Homer Wood, are you not? - -Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the mother of Sterling Charles Wood? - -Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that sometime after the assassination of -the President, your husband saw a picture of Oswald either in the -newspaper or on television and said something to you about it? Do you -remember that? - -Mrs. WOOD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened, and the circumstances and what you -saw? - -Mrs. WOOD. He thought he was the same man they saw out at the gun -range. In fact, he was sure of it. And he asked Sterling, and Sterling -said, "Yes, daddy, it is the same man." And they were very, very sure -of it at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling in the room? Did your husband first -see Oswald's picture on the television or in the newspapers; do you -remember? - -Mrs. WOOD. I don't remember exactly. I think it was the newspapers -or somewhere. They had three pictures of him. I think it was in the -newspapers. Could have been on television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling there at the time your husband first -spoke of this to you? - -Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't think so. I think he later asked Sterling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he asked Sterling, or whether -Sterling mentioned it of his own accord without any prompting from his -father? Do you remember how that happened? - -Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't remember exactly. I know they were both talking -about it. They were both pretty sure that he was the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection at this point that your -husband first saw a picture and said to you, now, in substance, that -this looked like the man he saw on the rifle range and he wanted to -wait and see if Sterling recognized him also, and that he purposely did -not mention it to Sterling, but waited to see if Sterling would come -forward with the same idea? Do you remember that happening? - -Mrs. WOOD. No; my husband was very, very sure. In fact, he was -positive. And there was a friend that they met at the range. I think -it was the same day. He called him to see if he thought, or if he had -recognized Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that friends name? - -Mrs. WOOD. It was Kenny Longley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't talk to Longley, did you? - -Mrs. WOOD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did? - -Mrs. WOOD. I think my husband called, but he never did talk to the boy. -The boy was in school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he ever talked to the boy about it -afterward? - -Mrs. WOOD. I don't think so. Kenney Longley though was a good ways off -or something, and I don't know whether he really saw him. According to -my husband, he said he could have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was out at the rifle -range that your husband or your son knew who might have seen this -fellow? - -Mrs. WOOD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is about all I wanted to ask you. Thank you very -much for your cooperation. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GLENN EMMETT SMITH - -The testimony of Glenn Emmett Smith was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of -President John F. Kennedy. - -I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission -pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you sometime last week advising -you that I would be in touch with you to take your testimony. I -understand also that he included with his letter a copy of the -Executive order and resolution just referred to, together with a copy -of the rules of procedure for the taking of testimony which have been -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and -joint resolution described above. - -Did you receive the letter from Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. SMITH. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those documents were enclosed with it, were they not? -Three different documents in that letter? - -Mr. SMITH. [Hands papers to attorney.] I'd better let you look, for I -don't know what is in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are. The general nature of the Commission's -inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing -of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you today concerning -any knowledge you may have about the alleged sale of a rifle by an -individual thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald to one Robert Taylor. We -would also like to get from you any information that you have about -Oswald's associates in Irving, Tex. - -Before we get to the details of that testimony, would you state your -full name for the record? - -Mr. SMITH. Glenn Emmett Smith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. SMITH. 1604 Argentia, apartment C. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed? - -Mr. SMITH. At Jack's Super Shell, Rock Island and Story Road, Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed there? - -Mr. SMITH. Since the 25th of April of 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity do you work at the Shell station? - -Mr. SMITH. I am a drive attendant. I work the driveway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do prior to the time that you went to work -for the Shell station? - -Mr. SMITH. I was an income tax consultant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Worked in Dallas? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you engaged in that? - -Mr. SMITH. Just through the tax months, from January 1 to the 15th of -April. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you usually do? Do you usually work service -stations? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. SMITH. Fifty-three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Texas? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life in Dallas? - -Mr. SMITH. No. I have been here since 1936. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live prior to that time? - -Mr. SMITH. Shawnee, Okla. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born in Oklahoma or born in Texas? - -Mr. SMITH. Born in Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved to Oklahoma? - -Mr. SMITH. Moved to Oklahoma. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved back to Texas? - -Mr. SMITH. Moved back to Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know one Robert Taylor? - -Mr. SMITH. I think I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him? - -Mr. SMITH. Since I went to work, since the 25th of April 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Taylor also employed at the Shell station where -you worked? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, I don't know if he is going to be let out or not. He -is off sick, and I understand that Mr. Smith has hired another man, -which I know he got a man working. I don't know if he is going to let -Robert come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Mr. Taylor did work at the Shell station from at -least April of 1963, up until sometime when he became ill, is that -correct? - -Mr. SMITH. He was working there when I went to work, and he worked -there steadily. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He became ill? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did he get sick? - -Mr. SMITH. He has been off a week and a half now. He went home sick -Saturday a week ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He hasn't been at work since that time? - -Mr. SMITH. Well, he come back and worked 3 hours last Friday and had to -go home again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work does Mr. Taylor do at the station? He -is--is he a driveway attendant? - -Mr. SMITH. No; a mechanic. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually have a shop there at the Shell station? - -Mr. SMITH. We do minor repairs, no major, just minor repair. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old is Mr. Taylor, do you know, possibly? - -Mr. SMITH. I think he is 49. I believe he told me he is 49. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Taylor about a -man who Taylor thought might be or was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I did not. I heard Mr. Taylor, if I may tell you -this---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell me what you know about it. - -Mr. SMITH. There was an FBI man called out and talked to us, and I -heard Mr. Taylor tell him between customers now, I was just catching -little words, and not enough to make very much sense, but I did hear -him tell that he had traded a rifle or bought a rifle or something from -Oswald. - -Now I didn't know Oswald. He showed us his picture, but I didn't know -him. He had been through there but I didn't recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI showed you Oswald's picture? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't recognize him? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -You see, sir--to my knowledge, I have never seen he or his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear Mr. Taylor discussing this rifle that he -bought from this fellow, before the FBI fellow talked to him? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the FBI man came to the station? -Would that have been in about the middle of December of 1963? - -Mr. SMITH. I'd be afraid to commit myself. I don't remember when he was -there. It's been about 2 or 3 months ago or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the man's name? - -Mr. SMITH. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that -his name was Morris J. White? Do you remember that was his name or -don't you remember? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember that you told the FBI agent that you -had heard conversation that Taylor had purchased a rifle from some -customer, and that that customer was thought by Taylor to be Lee Harvey -Oswald? Didn't you tell that to the FBI agent? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; absolutely not. I am absolutely positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first time you ever heard anything about this rifle -that Taylor was supposed to have purchased was when the FBI agent was -interviewing Taylor, isn't that your statement? - -Mr. SMITH. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard anything about it from Taylor or anyone -else prior to that time? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question of the rifle with Taylor -after the FBI agent was there? - -Mr. SMITH. Nothing more than he told me that let's see now, Bob said he -had traded a rifle, and that is about all. We were busy, and he said he -traded a rifle, and that was the day that he showed the picture to me, -the picture that the FBI man showed me, and that was all that was said -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Taylor told you afterwards that the FBI agent had showed -him a picture and this picture was supposed to be a picture of Oswald? - -Mr. SMITH. He showed both of us the picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He showed both of you the picture? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Taylor told you after the FBI agent left that the -picture that the FBI agent showed you was a picture of the man from -whom Taylor had purchased the rifle, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. He told the FBI man that. He didn't tell me that after he -left, but he definitely told him that in my presence. I heard him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with Taylor after the FBI -agent left about this question? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with anybody else about it? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the rifle that Taylor supposedly -purchased from this man? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Taylor ever tell you what kind of rifle it was? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never heard from anybody what kind of rifle it -was? - -Mr. SMITH. I never heard anything about it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Taylor? - -Mr. SMITH. I never knew him until I went to work there. Just by working -with him, that is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never associated with him outside of work? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I hadn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever formed any opinion as to Taylor's -truthfulness or his reliability? - -Mr. SMITH. I think he is truthful, and I think he is reliable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would tell the FBI agent that he got -a rifle from this fellow if he didn't in fact get a rifle from this -fellow? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't. I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where 2515 West Fifth Street is in Irving, -Tex.? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been there? - -Mr. SMITH. I have taken a lady home that lived there, to bring a car -back to service it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember approximately when that was? - -Mr. SMITH. Oh, we serviced her car quite often. What I mean, washed it -and greased it, and she comes in occasionally now, but not like she -used to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you gone to her house more than once to bring the -car back to the station? - -Mr. SMITH. To the best of my knowledge, I believe three times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were all of these times prior to the assassination? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember approximately when the first time was -that you took this lady home to her house and brought the car back to -the station? - -Mr. SMITH. Well---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember now that you first started to work for -the station in the last of April 1963? Can you remember approximately -how long after that it was when you first went to this address on Fifth -Street? - -Mr. SMITH. I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no idea? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A month, or 2 months, or just don't remember? - -Mr. SMITH. Possibly 2 or 3 months, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ever have any conversation with this lady during the time -that you drove with her back to her house? - -Mr. SMITH. Nothing more than just passing the time of day. The only -thing, she made the statement one time, the first time I took her home, -that she got a little child and she said the baby, he could speak -Russian better than he could English. That is the first time I knew -there was any Russian blood there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you they were Russian, or just told you the -little child could speak Russian? - -Mr. SMITH. That is all she told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That the child could speak Russian better than English? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anyone other than this lady and her -children at the house on Fifth Street in Irving? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go into the house on any occasion? - -Mr. SMITH. I helped her. I carried some groceries in her house one -time. She had a carload of groceries, and I helped her put them in the -house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many children were with her at that -time? - -Mr. SMITH. Three, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three children? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any judgment as to approximately how old -they were? Did it appear to you that they were all her children, or -weren't the ages so that it seemed to you that maybe one was the child -of somebody else? - -Mr. SMITH. I had an idea they were all hers. They were approximately, -looked like spaced out about a year or year and a half apart, something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which child this lady said could speak -Russian better than she could speak English? - -Mr. SMITH. The baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The youngest one? - -Mr. SMITH. The youngest one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing this young baby speaking Russian? - -Mr. SMITH. I did, but I didn't know what she was talking about. I -couldn't understand it, and that is the reason she told me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else speak Russian to the child? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the lady speak Russian? - -Mr. SMITH. No, I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the other two children speak Russian? - -Mr. SMITH. They didn't do no talking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In either English or Russian; is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you describe this lady for us? - -Mr. SMITH. She is a slender woman, tall, slender woman; has very nice -personality, and that is about all that I can say for her. She didn't -do much talking either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever make a statement to you that she was Russian -herself? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She just indicated to you that the little baby spoke -Russian better than English, is that right? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how it came to be that baby spoke -Russian? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't ask her? - -Mr. SMITH. I didn't ask her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you curious about that? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes; I was. I went back to the station and talked to the -boss about it. I told him, "I believe those people are Russian people -living down there," and he said why, and I told him about the lady -telling me the little fellow spoke Russian better than English. And -they were curious about it, but nothing was ever said. We didn't say -anything to her, because she just come in and got gas and that was all. -She never did talk much or anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn what this lady's name was? - -Mr. SMITH. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know what it is today? - -Mr. SMITH. I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this child a boy or girl, or could you tell? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't know. I never paid any attention to it. I don't know -if it was or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether it was a boy or girl? - -Mr. SMITH. Well. I didn't know, because I didn't notice. I didn't pay -any attention whether it was a boy or girl. - -Ordinarily, when I take a car home out there, I try to get there and -back as fast as I can and I don't pay any attention other than the -house number and what time it is supposed to be delivered. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car did this lady have? - -Mr. SMITH. It is a station wagon. I believe a Plymouth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately what year? - -Mr. SMITH. About a '53 or '54. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure it is a Plymouth, or could it be some other -car? - -Mr. SMITH. No; I am not positive. It is either a Plymouth or a -Chevrolet. I am not positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen this lady at any time other than when -she brought her car to the gas station to have it serviced, or when you -took her to her house? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there ever anyone with this lady other than the -children at any time? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet this lady's husband? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about him? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that they were separated from each -other? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you went into the house this first time to take the -groceries in, as I understand it, that was the time when the youngest -child was speaking Russian, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you went into the house, you brought the groceries -into the kitchen, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. No; I set them down in the living room. She told me to put -them on the coffee table, and I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at that time see anything that would indicate to -you that there was someone else in the house? - -Mr. SMITH. The house was awfully dirty. Boy, I never saw such a mess in -my life. Things were on the floor, clothing and papers and everything -else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea when you went into the house with -her that there might be someone else in the house or was someone there -in the house when you came in? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell one way or the other? You didn't see into -the bedrooms, did you? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There could have been someone else in the bedrooms and -you wouldn't have seen them? - -Mr. SMITH. There could have been. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The lady didn't speak to anybody or call out when she -came into the house to anyone else? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This lady never indicated to you that this child that -spoke Russian was not, in fact, her own child, did she? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You always assumed it was this lady's child? - -Mr. SMITH. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you five different pictures that have been -marked in a previous procedure as Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, -455, and 456. I want you to look at them and tell me if you have seen -the individuals depicted in these pictures at any time? - -Mr. SMITH. [Looking] No, sir; I sure don't recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize any of these? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't ever remember seeing him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph which has been marked -previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B. It is a picture of several people, -but one of the individuals has been indicated by a green mark on the -face of the photo and I ask you if you have ever seen that individual, -to the best of your knowledge? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I do not recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph which has been marked -previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C and ask you if you have ever seen -that individual, to the best of your knowledge? - -Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I asked you before, did I not, whether you have ever seen -this rifle that Mr. Taylor told you he had purchased? - -Mr. SMITH. I have not seen it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Smith. If -you can think of anything that you know that you think the Commission -might be interested in, whether I have asked you about it or haven't -asked you, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that. - -Mr. SMITH. Well, I don't think I have a thing in the world, because -actually I didn't know Oswald or his wife, either one. I don't ever -remember seeing them. - -And I do want to tell you this. At the time President Kennedy was -assassinated, I thought this woman who lived on Fifth Street, right -after it happened, I thought that was his wife simply because of her -saying that this child spoke Russian and the police arrested Oswald, -and I figured in my own mind that this was his wife, but it turned out -differently, and that is the only thing that I learned about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that it wasn't this lady's husband that was -involved, by reading the newspapers, is that correct? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and as far as if this lady that lived on Fifth -Street had a husband, I have never seen a man around there at all, and -I have never seen a man with her. Ordinarily, just human nature would -cause a man and his wife to be together sometime. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have never seen this lady with her husband? - -Mr. SMITH. I have never seen her with a man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Smith, for coming in, -I appreciate it. - -Mr. SMITH. I wish there was something I could do, but I don't know a -thing in the world I could help you with, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF W. W. SEMINGSEN - -The testimony of W. W. Semingsen was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please rise and raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Mr. Semingsen my name is Wesley -J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's -Commission which has been appointed to investigate the assassination -of President Kennedy. The staff counsel have been authorized by the -Commission to take testimony pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint -resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I believe that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week telling you we -would be in touch with you to take your testimony, and he sent that -letter along with copies of the Executive order and joint resolution -of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure -relating to the taking of testimony is that not correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I received Mr. Rankin's letter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today concerning the -possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald received money order telegrams -through the offices of Western Union here in Dallas, or possibly in -Fort Worth or Irving, and also briefly as to a money order telegram -sent by Jack Ruby to an associate of his on November 24, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state -your full name for the record? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. My name is W. W. Semingsen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed, sir? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The Western Union Telegraph Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity are you employed? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. As vice president, Gulf Division, headquarters, Dallas, -Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of your duties with the Western Union -Co. in that position? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. They are administrative and executive in capacity. I -have jurisdiction over the operations in eight of the Gulf Division -states. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are those States? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, -Oklahoma, and Louisiana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as vice president of the Gulf Division, -are you generally familiar with the recordkeeping procedures, the -manner in which records of telegrams sent or received are kept by the -company? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not in direct supervision of the recordkeeping -procedure? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. No; I am not. That is delegated to various supervisory -employees. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in your capacity as vice president, you are -thoroughly familiar with the way records are kept by the company? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. I do have knowledge of recordkeeping, general -knowledge of recordkeeping. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In anticipation of the fact that your testimony would be -taken by the Commission, you have prepared a statement which is dated -March 30, 1964, which consists of five pages relating to the efforts -made by Western Union in investigating the possibility that money -orders payable to Oswald or his alias, O. H. Lee and Alek James Hidell, -may have been received in the Dallas or Fort Worth or Irving office of -Western Union? And also relating to telegrams sent or received by Jack -Ruby during certain indicated periods; is that not correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that document as Exhibit 3001. - -I have marked the memorandum received as Exhibit 3001 on the deposition -of W. W. Semingsen, March 31, 1964, Dallas, Tex., and have initialed -it, and I will ask you also to initial it, if you would, Mr. Semingsen. - -(Witness initials and signs on page 5.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you did prepare this -report in anticipation of giving testimony to the Commission? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I did, in the interest of expediting the testimony. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are thoroughly familiar with the matters set -forth in Exhibit 3001, are you not? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The material set forth in that memorandum is true and -correct, to the best of your knowledge, is it not? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We should note for the record that Exhibit 3001 has in -the left-hand margin certain numerals which I have placed there running -from 1 through 7, which refers to attachments to the exhibit, which, in -effect, form a part of the memorandum. And, you have marked, have you -not, the exhibits running 1 through 7 which you intend should be a part -of the memorandum; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The attachments to the exhibit, which are numbered -1 through 7, are photostatic copies of the originals of certain -documents, or of copies of certain documents which you retain in your -possession, as are described in Exhibit 3001; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I refer specifically to the item marked "Attachment 1 to -Exhibit 3001," which consists of photostatic copies of four separate -documents. Please identify for the record the first one of those -documents. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The first one of the documents on page 1 of the -attachment is the original money order application prepared and filed -by Jack Ruby in Dallas, Tex., on November 24, 1963, at 11:17 a.m., as -noted by the automatic time stamp shown on the application. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark that as Exhibit No. 5118, and note for the -record that we are marking these at the request of Mr. Hubert, who has -the responsibility for area 5 of the investigation, relating to Mr. -Ruby. - -I have marked the document referred to as Exhibit 5118 on the -deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, March 31, 1964, in Dallas, Tex., and -have initialed it, and ask you to initial it also, if you would, Mr. -Semingsen. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to -Exhibit 3001, is what, Mr. Semingsen? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. It is the duplicate or carbon copy of the original money -order receipt given to Jack Ruby at the time he filed the money order -application. The original of this receipt was given to Mr. Ruby and -found in his possession by the police at the time of his arrest. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the copy which you have just described as -Exhibit 5119 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, Dallas, Tex., -March 31, 1964. [Also introduced as Lane Exhibits Nos. 5118 and 5119.] - -I have initialed the copy which you have just described, and ask that -you also initial it, please. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.] I have so done. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to -Exhibit 3001, is what, sir? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. This is the original money order receipt, showing the -signature of the money order payable to Karen Bennett at Fort Worth, -Tex., on November 24, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the third document to which we just -referred as Exhibit 5120 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, -Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, and have initialed it. I notice that you -have already initialed that exhibit; is that not correct, Mr. Semingsen? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to -Exhibit 3001, is what, sir? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is a copy of the original money order message -received in Fort Worth authorizing the payment of the money to the -payee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark that telegram as 5121 on the deposition of -Mr. W. W. Semingsen, Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. I have initialed it -and ask you, sir, to do the same. [Also introduced as Strong Exhibits -Nos. 5120 and 5121.] - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.] And I have so done. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1 of your memorandum, Exhibit 3001, you indicate -that a search of your records in the Dallas, Tex., office show that no -money orders payable to Lee Harvey Oswald or his aliases, O. H. Lee -or Alek James Hidell, went through that office during the period June -through November 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you came to that conclusion? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. A search was made of our "Received money order file" for -the period mentioned by supervisory employees, and no "Received money -orders" were found. The "Received money orders" are filed in date order. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it a fact, Mr. Semingsen, that the receiving office -of your company--in this case, Dallas, Tex.--actually keeps records -showing the receipt of money orders payable to any person who received -money orders through that office? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who issued instructions that this search be made? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I issued the instructions at the request of the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you personally satisfied that the search was carried -out in a thorough manner and that there are in fact no records in the -possession of the Western Union Telegraph Co. that would indicate that -any money orders payable in the names mentioned above during the period -June through November 1963, exist? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am satisfied that a very thorough search was made by -competent supervisory personnel who are familiar with our records. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are in fact satisfied that there are no records -in the possession of your company that would indicate that money order -telegrams had been received by Oswald under his own name or other -names during that period; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am satisfied as to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, also on the bottom of page 1 of your memorandum -you indicate that no telegrams were sent by Lee Harvey Oswald or by -any person under the name of the two aliases which we have mentioned, -through the Dallas, Tex., office during the period September 1 to -November 22, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you came to that conclusion? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The same supervisory personnel who made the search for -the "Received money orders" made the search for any telegram sent by -Lee Harvey Oswald and alias already mentioned. The search was confined -to "Sent paid cash message" and to "Sent collect messages." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those messages are filed chronologically, is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Those messages are filed in date order. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned two categories of messages to which the -search was confined, and those were "Sent paid messages," or "Sent -collect messages"? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. "Sent paid cash messages," and "Sent collect messages." - -Mr. LIEBELER. What other type messages are there? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The other types of messages are messages charged to -customers having authorized charge accounts. It is obvious that a -message filed by Oswald would not be found in any of our charge account -message files. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is possible to pick up the telephone and call the -Western Union office and instruct that a telegram be sent and have it -charged to the telephone number, is it not? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that a separate category, or is that a third category? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is a separate category of messages filed by -telephone subscribers and charged to their telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was a search made of those messages? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I believe a search was made of those message, but I -would have to confirm that with Mr. Wilcox, our local district manager -in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, for the sake of clarity of the record, at this -point let me suggest that we go off the record, and Mr. Wilcox is -available. Would you confer with Mr. Wilcox on that point and let us -indicate on the record what he has advised you? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that we have conferred off the -record with Mr. Wilcox, and you have consulted with him as to whether -or not a check was made of the records covering messages called in by -telephone and charged to a telephone number. Would you tell us what Mr. -Wilcox indicated? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Mr. Wilcox made reference to notes in these files and -has determined that a search was not made of messages sent and charged -to the telephone, for the reason that it had been indicated that Oswald -had filed messages at our office. In such event, the message would not -be charged to the telephone, and for that reason, a search of the sent -messages charged to the telephone was not made. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the same time you mean to indicate that the thing that -prompted this search by your office in the first place was the story -that Oswald had actually been in the Western Union office and filed the -message in person; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If he had filed it in person, it would obviously not have -been called in by telephone and charged to his telephone number; is -that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the top of page 3 of your memorandum 3001, the -statement appears "For money orders payable to Lee Harvey Oswald and -his aliases or to anyone at a specific address in Dallas--October -through November 1963--result: Negative." Would you explain that for -us, please? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. As I have indicated in my prepared statement, one -of our employees thought he had recognized Oswald as having received a -money order at our main office sometime during the dates mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. October through November 1963? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. It was thought that the money order was payable to -someone at a specific address in Dallas, which was the YMCA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So when you searched through the records indicating money -orders payable during the period October through November 1963, you -determined that no money order had been made payable to Lee Harvey -Oswald, or to these aliases, and in addition to that fact, that no -money orders of any kind had been made payable to anyone at the YMCA in -Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where the information came from that the -money order was supposed to have been payable to Oswald at the YMCA? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. This information came from one of our night -employees, Mr. C. A. Hamblen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into Mr. Hamblen, I want to cover the rest -of the statements made in your memorandum, and we will try to cover -them generally. The memorandum indicates that certain money orders were -received by Jack Ruby, and that certain telegrams were sent by Jack -Ruby through the Dallas office; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that information was determined as a result of the -search that you have just described? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the search of the money order payable file, -plus the telegrams sent file, which search was confined, as you have -indicated, only to the telegrams sent cash paid or sent collect; is -that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. With respect to the money orders, the -search was made of the received money order file records of which we -have. As to the telegrams filed by Mr. Ruby, knowing that he was a -resident of Dallas, having a business here, we asked the FBI agent -to check with the telephone company to see whether or not their -records indicate any messages had been sent by Ruby and charged to his -telephone. This information was secured by the FBI from the telephone -company and enabled us to readily locate the messages in our files -which were charged to his telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated before that when searching for telegrams -sent by Oswald, a general search was made of the chronological dates -that you have described; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You searched all the chronological records of the two -classifications of telegrams that we have indicated? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that search was made for telegrams sent -by Oswald, did the person making that search also look for telegrams -sent by Ruby? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. No. The search made for telegrams sent by Ruby was -confined to the dates given to us by the FBI, which dates were obtained -from the telephone company records showing telegrams charged to Ruby's -telephone number or numbers on those dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is possible that Mr. Ruby may have sent other -telegrams which were not charged to his telephone number or numbers, -and of which we would not be aware as a result of the search made in -connection with Mr. Ruby; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On page 3 of your memorandum, exhibit 3001, you indicate -that a telegram dated Painesville, Ohio, January 13, 1964, to Mrs. Lee -Harvey Oswald, was received. How did that come to your attention, Mr. -Semingsen? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That telegram was brought to my attention by District -Manager Wilcox, it having been shown to him by one of our main office -employees who handled the message. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was shown to Mr. Wilcox because of the nature of the -message which the telegram contained; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The telegram to which reference has just been made is -attached to the memorandum as attachment No. 4. Your memorandum also -indicates negative results when a search was made of the office in -Irving. Tex., in Fort Worth, Tex., and in New Orleans, La., for money -orders payable to Oswald or to his aliases, or in the case of New -Orleans for money orders sent or received by Oswald and aliases through -the periods indicated in the memorandum. Were these statements made in -your memorandum as a result of searches made similar to that in the -Dallas office, do you know? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you personally instruct the New Orleans office to -conduct the search of their records or cause such instructions to be -given? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The search at New Orleans with respect to received money -orders was authorized by our district manager in New Orleans. Later -a request was made for a similar search of sent money orders, which -was referred to my office. And in this instance I authorized our New -Orleans office to make the search. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the search concerning received -money orders was instigated by a direct request to the New Orleans -office by the FBI or some other investigatory agency, is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I notice that the period for which a search was made in -the Fort Worth office is confined to July 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 27, and -29, 1963. Can you tell me the reason for that? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The request for the search for money orders payable to -Oswald on those dates was made by local FBI agents in Fort Worth of our -district manager there. The FBI agents requested the search because -they had information to the effect that the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald -was a tenant at this address during that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which address is that? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The address was the Rotary Apartments, 1501 West Seventh -Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fort Worth? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In answering the last question, you referred to a -memorandum in your file from a Mr. T. R. Coates to you, is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is dated December 9, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The memorandum indicates that a Mr. Meyers of the FBI -came to the Fort Worth office of your company and requested that a -check be made of the received money orders for the last 2 weekends of -July to determine if a money order had been received addressed to Lee -Harvey Oswald, or anyone at the address of the Rotary Apartments, 1501 -West Seventh Street, Fort Worth, Tex.; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Coates says that the FBI agent said that the FBI -had information that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother was a tenant at that -address during that time, and Mr. Coates also indicates that a search -of the received money orders of July 19, 20, 21-22, 26-27 and 28-29 -were made, but no record was found of any having been received; is that -correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been possible for Oswald to have received -money orders at any offices in Dallas other than a Dallas main office? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. He could have received money orders at the branch -offices. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would the records of received money orders for the branch -offices be filed at the Dallas main office or at the Dallas branch -offices? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am not certain about that, but the search of all -received money orders was made covering both the main and branch -offices. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. In Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about suburban offices? We have noted that a -specific search was made of the Irving office. Are there other suburban -offices at which Oswald could have received money orders, which would -not have been uncovered by the search which was made? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; it is possible he could have received money orders -at such places, for example, at Garland or Grand Prairie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there only one office in Irving? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; there is one office in Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not the records of received money -orders for suburban areas of Dallas are kept in the local suburban -office or kept in the Dallas main office? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. They are kept at the branch office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are absolutely certain that the records relating -to the money orders received at the Dallas branch office are either -kept at the Dallas main office or would the search that was made -include a search of the branch offices; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; and in addition, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned a moment ago the fact that one of your -employees, Mr. C. A. Hamblen, who is presently a night manager in the -Dallas main office--is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am not sure what his title is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hamblen said that he thought he recognized Oswald as -a customer in that office, is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. He had indicated that he had thought he had seen -Mr. Oswald or someone that looked like him in the office on some -occasion, either receiving the money order or sending a telegram. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the background of Mr. Hamblen's -involvement in this matter. In your own words tell us the story of the -events that prompted this search. What investigation was made as to Mr. -Hamblen's activities, and what conclusion the company came to in this -respect? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Perhaps it would be best to get that testimony direct -from Mr. Wilcox. However, I did participate in a very thorough -questioning of Mr. Hamblen and can furnish you with this information. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate for us briefly, and we will perhaps go -into greater detail with Mr. Wilcox after lunch. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Sometime shortly after the killing of Oswald by Ruby, -which was shown on television, Mr. Hamblen indicated or mentioned to -Mr. Wilcox that he thought he had seen someone who appeared to look -like Oswald in our main office, either receiving a money order or -sending a telegram. When Mr. Wilcox learned of this information, he -had a search made of our files for certain dates which he is in better -position to testify on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He caused the search to be made for a telegram that might -have been sent by Oswald or money order received by Oswald; is that -correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. There were two specific instances in -which Mr. Hamblen thought that he had seen Oswald in the office. One -having to do with a received money order, and the other instance having -to do with the filing of a telegram. The search made by Mr. Wilcox -revealed no such transactions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this search made before or after Mr. Hamblen's views -became known to the press? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The first search was made before the information reached -the press. The second and more intensive search was made following -appearance in the press concerning the alleged filing of telegrams and -receiving of money orders by Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand the chronology of events here, Mr. -Hamblen first indicated to Mr. Wilcox that he, Hamblen, thought he -recalled Oswald having been in the Western Union office, the main -office in Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to that time, as I understand it, Mr. Wilcox -observed a story in the newspaper that indicated that Oswald had been -in the office and had received a small amount of money by telegram -money order; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Mr. Wilcox at that point concluded -that the story must have gotten to the press through Mr. Hamblen, and -after that time, Mr. Hamblen was questioned by Mr. Wilcox and also -by yourself, and gave to Mr. Wilcox certain statements relating to -his alleged recollection of Oswald having been in the office; is that -correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have given me copies of two statements by Mr. -Hamblen, dated December 2, 1963, and December 5, 1963, respectively. -Did you have any personal involvement in the preparation of these -statements to which I have referred? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. No; I did not. At a meeting in Mr. Wilcox's office -following my receipt of copies of these statements, I personally -interrogated Mr. Hamblen and other employees whom Hamblen had thought -had handled the transactions in question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Specifically, that would have been a Mrs. D. J. McClure? -Is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. McClure is an employee of the company who Mr. -Hamblen said had had trouble with Oswald and had requested him, -Hamblen, to assist in handling Oswald; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any written report to the file, or for any -other officer of the company, of your interrogation of Mr. Hamblen or -Mrs. McClure? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you state for us at this time the general nature of -the interrogation and the conclusions to which you came as a result of -your questioning of Mr. Hamblen and Mrs. McClure? - -We will note at this time for the record that while Mr. Semingsen is -referring to copies of the two statements made by Mr. Hamblen, dated -December 2 and December 5, 1963, they will not be marked at this time, -since Mr. Semingsen had no direct involvement in the preparation of -these statements. They will be marked subsequently upon the examination -of Mr. Wilcox. - -You may refer to those statements, if you wish. - -Perhaps the record should also note that a statement was given to Mr. -Wilcox, apparently by Mrs. McClure, on December 4, 1963. Mr. Semingsen, -you indicated that you had questioned both of those employees. I assume -that when you did question them, you had these statements before you; -is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please state the general nature of your questioning and -the conclusions to which you came as a result of your questioning. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. As previously indicated, I questioned both of the -employees separately, individually, and together in the presence of -Mr. Wilcox, my purpose being to reconcile the differences in their -statements. - -After having informed Mr. Hamblen of the extensive search that had been -made for the telegram which he so vividly recalled having been filed -by someone who looked like Oswald, and calling to his attention that -all of the cash messages that had been handled by Mrs. McClure had -been accounted for and no such message located, I asked for a further -explanation from him. After questioning him, he would give no further -explanation in the presence of Mrs. McClure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he still stick to the proposition that to the best of -his recollection Oswald or someone that he thought looked like Oswald, -had, in fact, been in the office and had these difficulties with Mrs. -McClure? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I similarly questioned Mrs. McClure, and I am satisfied -from the answers that she gave that her story is the correct one. -Particularly in the absence of any such message in our files. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. McClure's version is that no such person as Oswald -ever came in the office, and she had no difficulty with anyone as a -result of which she requested assistance from Mr. Hamblen; is that -correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you satisfied that is a correct story? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am satisfied that that is the correct story as -indicated by Mrs. McClure in her statement that Mr. Hamblen was -confused, possibly had Oswald mixed up with someone else who looked -very much like him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hamblen particularly mentioned a message that this -person who he thought looked like Oswald was supposed to have sent to -Washington, D.C.; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the Secretary of Navy in particular; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. The message that he had reference to was supposedly -a night letter addressed to Washington. D.C., as indicated in his -statement of December 5. In that statement he also indicated that the -telegram was a cash telegram, accounted for by Mrs. McClure as a night -letter. Such accounting would have to appear on her record of cash -telegrams accepted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the telegram with respect to which Hamblen -said Mrs. McClure had difficulty with a customer and requested his -assistance; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have caused a thorough search of Mrs. McClure's -records to be made and you have not found any night letter to -Washington, D.C.; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct during the period searched. We did -locate several messages to Washington, D.C. I do not recall that they -were accepted by Mrs. McClure, but Mr. Wilcox can testify as to that. -In any event, a telegram to Washington, D.C., and several other cities -fitting the description that Hamblen had given were shown to him and -he could not identify any of them as the telegram he had referred to, -which Mrs. McClure was supposed to have accepted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What dates were searched for the specific message to -Washington, D.C.? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. All cash messages sent to Washington, D.C., from the -latter part of October through November 22, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you be more specific as to what the latter part of -October might be? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Whether or not accepted by Mrs. McClure. In addition, a -search of all cash messages accepted by Mrs. McClure during the period -November 1 to November 21, 1963, inclusive, was made, and all messages -accepted by her were matched out with her cash sheet and all messages -have been accounted for. All cash messages accepted by her have been -accounted for. None could be identified as the message in question -referred to by Mr. Hamblen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you said it could not be identified, you mean it -could not be identified by Mr. Hamblen? When shown to Mr. Hamblen, he -could not identify them? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you are perfectly satisfied in your own mind based -on the investigation which your company has conducted, and your -questioning of Mr. Hamblen and Mrs. McClure, that Oswald did not -receive any money order through your Dallas office or any of the other -offices indicated in your memorandum, Exhibit 3001, and that Oswald did -not, in fact, send a message to Washington, D.C., or give a message to -Mrs. McClure as indicated by Mr. Hamblen; is that correct? - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct, and I am satisfied of that conclusion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point, Mr. Semingsen. -I think that some of the details of the searches made and of other -aspects of this matter will be taken up with Mr. Wilcox after lunch. -If you have anything else that you would like to add, or you think I -should ask you that I haven't asked you, I would appreciate if you -would so indicate on the record at this point. - -Mr. SEMINGSEN. I can think of nothing at this time, but if anything -further does occur to me, I will be glad to bring it to your attention. -I am sure that Mr. Wilcox will be more helpful in answering any -questions that you may wish to ask him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Semingsen. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LAURANCE R. WILCOX - -The testimony of Laurance R. Wilcox was taken at 2 p. m., on March 31, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before I start, I want to swear you in as a witness. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WILCOX. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wilcox, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the Commission appointed by President Johnson to -investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses -by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of -Congress No. 137. - -The Commission rules of procedure require that copies of that Executive -order and the congressional resolution, as well as copies of the -Commission's rules and procedures relating to the taking of testimony -be provided to each witness prior to the time his testimony is -taken. I now provide you with copies of those documents. The general -nature of the testimony that we wish to get from you today relates -to investigations made by Western Union Telegraph Co. concerning the -possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald received money orders through the -offices of your company, either in Dallas or the surrounding area, -and the possibility that he may have sent telegrams to other persons -through the facilities of your company. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your testimony, would -you please state your full name for the record? - -Mr. WILCOX. Laurance R. Wilcox. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? - -Mr. WILCOX. Western Union Telegraph Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity? - -Mr. WILCOX. District manager. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are your duties as district manager? - -Mr. WILCOX. Administrative; in charge of the operation for Western -Union in the city of Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are general manager then of the area which includes -just the city of Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. District manager. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of just the city of Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes; and immediate surrounding towns such as Garland, -Mesquite, Grand Prairie, Irving, and Lancaster. That is all I can think -of right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are generally in charge of the operations of the -company within that particular area; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time, Mr. Wilcox, when you caused a -search to be made of the records of the Western Union Telegraph Co. to -determine whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had ever received or sent -any telegrams through the offices under your jurisdiction? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that? - -Mr. WILCOX. Can I refer to these papers? - -Mr. LIEBELER. You may refer to any papers that you wish. - -Mr. WILCOX. I want to so that I will have this exactly right as to what -took place. My first knowledge of the message that was supposed to have -been sent by Oswald was when Mr. Hamblen, early night manager at my -office, visited with me telling me---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that Mr. C. A. Hamblen? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. WILCOX. Telling me that he had been watching the television, and -when he saw the picture of Oswald, he recognized that as being a man -that had been in our office and had filed a message. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Mr. Hamblen told you this? - -Mr. WILCOX. This was on a Wednesday following the -assassination--following the shooting of Oswald. He told me that he was -positive that he had seen Mr. Oswald in our office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you this on Wednesday following the Sunday on -which Mr. Oswald was shot by Ruby; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 27, 1963? Thanksgiving was -on November the 28th. - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. It was on a Wednesday preceding Thanksgiving. I asked -Mr. Hamblen to tell me exactly what had taken place. - -He stated that Oswald had filed a message going to Washington--a cash -message, and it was written in a peculiar script, as Mr. Hamblen put -it. It was typed in pencil. I think he meant is printed in pencil. - -I asked him to immediately set about to obtain copies of that, as I was -leaving town, and to get a copy of the message, and to do that it would -be necessary for him to see Mr. Pirtle, our bookkeeping manager, and to -get the message, put it in an envelope, and address it to my personal -attention while I was in Kansas City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Hamblen tell you anything about what the message -said or to whom it was addressed at this first conversation? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, he didn't. We left for Kansas City and was there over -the Thanksgiving holidays. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and your family? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. And while there, this article appeared in the Kansas -City Star, their evening paper; very much the same story as appeared in -the Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a clipping which purports to have -appeared in the Dallas Times Herald on November 30, 1963. I ask you if -this tells a story similar to the report you saw in the Kansas City -Star? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, same story. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark this clipping as Exhibit 3002 on the -deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. I -have initialed the clipping in question, Mr. Wilcox, and ask you to do -the same. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] Immediately when I read this story in the -Kansas City paper I recognized it as being the same story that Mr. -Hamblen had told me just a couple of days before in my office. - -We returned to Dallas Sunday, and immediately on my return to the -office Monday---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Monday, I suggest would have been December 2, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you fix that by recalling that the assassination was -on the 22d. The following Friday would have been the 29th. Saturday, -the 30th. Sunday the 1st; and Monday would have been December 2? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, December 2. Now, this was on my return to the office, -and we indicated that was December 2. I went over the information that -was contained in the newspaper article with Mr. Hamblen, reminding him -that this was in effect the same story as he had told me just 2 days -before, a few days before. Particularly, its comment about the strange -printing on the telegram which he had seen presented by Oswald. - -Mr. Hamblen admitted that he had discussed several matters with -different reporters, but insisted that he hadn't given out such -detailed information as appeared in the newspaper article. - -However, I was constrained to feel that he had because it was exactly -the same story as he had given me initially in the past week. - -There was no doubt in my mind but that the newspaper article stemmed -from Mr. Hamblen's visit with a newspaper reporter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, Mr. Wilcox, you have referred to a -copy of a letter dated December 3, 1963, which appears to be a letter -from you to Mr. Semingsen; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir; would you like to have a copy? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did you prepare that letter on or about December 3? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does it accurately reflect the events that occurred prior -to that time? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I mark that letter as Exhibit 3003, on the deposition -of Mr. Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. I have -initialed the copy in question, Mr. Wilcox, and would like to have you -do the same thing if you would. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go on, I call your attention to the fact that -this letter of December 3, 1963, starts out by saying "This is to -supplement my report of December 2 in connection with newspaper article -regarding messages and money order to Ruby or Oswald." - -Do you have a copy of your report of December 2, referred to in Exhibit -3003? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. May we mark that as Exhibit No. 3004 on the deposition of -Mr. Laurance R. Wilcox, Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964? - -Mr. WILCOX. [Hands document to attorney.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 3004 and you have done -likewise, have you not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had just indicated that you had talked to Mr. Hamblen -upon your return concerning the newspaper story. Would you tell us what -happened next? - -Mr. WILCOX. I asked Mr. Hamblen if he had obtained the message from the -bookkeeping department as I had requested he do, and he stated that he -had not found it and did not have it and it wasn't available. - -On December 9, Mr. Semingsen, vice president of Western Union, was at -my office, and at this time we interviewed several employees for the -purpose of finding out if any of them could recall having seen Oswald -in our office. We also discussed the Ruby money orders. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the names of the employees who were -interviewed on December 9, 1963, in connection with the possibility -that Oswald might have sent or received telegrams through your company? - -Do you have a memorandum reflecting what happened? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, because what we did, we asked for statements from these -people, and I have those statements and that was the result of that -meeting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The meeting you referred to now is the meeting held in -your office on December 9? - -Mr. WILCOX. The meeting held in my office on December 9. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a message that was sent by Mr. -Semingsen to Mr. J. H. Waters in New York City, which has been attached -as Attachment No. 5 to Exhibit 3001 on Mr. Semingsen's deposition. I -show you that message and ask you if that accurately reflects what -occurred at the meeting in your office on December 9, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. This doesn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say it does not? - -Mr. WILCOX. This was pertaining to Mr. Ruby. This did not have anything -to do with that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me further point out to you, Mr. Wilcox, that we -have statements of Mr. Hamblen dated December 2 and December 5, 1963, -which are apparently addressed to you. I show you copies, first, of the -statement dated December 2, 1963, and ask you if you can remember the -circumstances under which that statement was obtained from Mr. Hamblen? - -Mr. WILCOX. This statement was obtained---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. The statement you are referring to is the statement dated -December 2, 1963; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. This statement was obtained at the time I discussed -the matter with Mr. Hamblen on December 2, Monday. That was this -statement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That visit with Mr. Hamblen is described in Exhibit No. -3003, your letter to Mr. Semingsen on December 3, 1963, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the statement of Mr. Hamblen, dated December 2, 1963, -was obtained at that time? That time being the first time that you -talked to Mr. Hamblen after this matter appeared in the newspapers; is -that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the original of Mr. Hamblen's statement of -December 2, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. I can't find it in my file. I am wondering if it was sent -to Mr. Semingsen's file, but we have gone through that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a thermofax copy that has been provided to us, -and ask you if that is an accurate copy of the original statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. That was made in our office on the thermofax machine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let us mark the thermofax copy of the statement of Mr. -C. A. Hamblen to Mr. Wilcox dated December 2, 1963, as Exhibit 3005 on -the deposition of Mr. Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., on March 31, -1964. - -I have initialed Exhibit 3005, Mr. Wilcox. Will you do the same? - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does the statement of Mr. Hamblen, Exhibit No. 3005, -accurately reflect the conversation which you had with him on December -2, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you prepare that statement yourself? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir; Mr. Hamblen prepared that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Hamblen dictate it himself, or write it out? - -Mr. WILCOX. Wrote it on the typewriter himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now in the December 2, 1963, statement, Mr. Hamblen says: -"As I recall, several weeks ago Mr. Aubrey Lewis had trouble paying -this party a money order. He expected to get same without proper ID. -He was informed to get some ID and come back and get paid, and as Mr. -Lewis recalled he returned about 1 hour later with Navy ID card and a -library card and was paid a small amount with this ID and after payment -made, party left the office. - -Mr. Lewis remarked to me, I would like to pinch the heads off people of -his character." - -Do you recall discussing this with Mr. Hamblen on December 2, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that Mr. Hamblen might -have said about this incident other than that which is reflected in the -statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing this statement with Mr. Lewis at -any time? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discuss it with Mr. Lewis? - -Mr. WILCOX. That is what I am trying to find right here. Must have been -on December 4 that I talked to Mr. Lewis about it, and his statement -addressed to me was written by himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On December 4, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. On December 4, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of that statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could we mark that as Exhibit No. 3006 on the deposition -of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964? - -In this case you have actually provided me the original of Mr. Lewis' -statement, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 3006 and would like to have -you do the same, if you would. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Lewis' statement refers to that portion of Mr. -Hamblen's statement, dated December 2, 1963, which we just read, does -it not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Lewis says that he does recall the difficulty he -had paying a small money order to a gentleman who struck him as being a -feminine type of person, but says he cannot remember the name of that -person; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing that with Mr. Lewis to any -extent other than as reflected on this statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what you said and what Mr. Lewis said -about this? - -Before you tell us what was said, this discussion that you are -referring to was held on December 4, 1963, or some other time? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir; at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what that conversation was? - -Mr. WILCOX. The conversation with Mr. Lewis had to do with trying to -identify the person that he was supposed to have paid this money order -to, and the one with which he had some difficulty in establishing -identification. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell me exactly what happened in as great -detail as you can remember it. - -Now, at this conversation with Mr. Lewis, the possibility that this -money order was to be delivered to someone at the YMCA on Ervay Street -in Dallas was discussed, was it not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us all that you can remember about that -aspect of the discussion that you had with Mr. Lewis? - -Mr. WILCOX. I have discussed the matter with Mr. Lewis regarding the -money order which he was having difficulty in paying. He could not -pay the money order because the recipient could not produce suitable -identification. - -Mr. Lewis was a little hazy on the details about it, but was under the -impression that it was a money order or a message in the nearby area, -possibly on Ervay Street or at the YMCA. - -We instituted a search for all money orders during this period, that -might be the message to which Mr. Hamblen was making reference. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the one with which Mr. Lewis had difficulty in -paying; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. Now, we found some messages. One in the amount of $65. -One in the amount of $35. But neither of these were the money orders -that Mr. Hamblen had reference to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you establish the fact that they were not the -money orders? - -Mr. WILCOX. He looked at them and decided it wasn't the one, because -we couldn't find anything that had reference to this particular -identification that Hamblen was talking about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Lewis looked at these telegrams; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does the telegram indicate what sort of identification -was produced by the person to whom the money order was paid? - -Mr. WILCOX. Well, there are several others in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are looking through a number of telegrams covering -money orders; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Going to different people at the YMCA, but none of them was -the money order message. None of them was a money order message that -Lewis could identify as being a money order of the type Hamblen was -describing. In other words, he couldn't find anything that fitted into -that pattern at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed these money orders with Mr. Lewis after you -obtained them from the files; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. Mr. Lewis later told me that it might have -been a money order draft that could have been paid to some individual -in our town, and that the party holding the draft had presented it -at our office for payment, but was having difficulty in producing -suitable identification for us to cash the draft. In that event, we -would not have any message or record of message in our file locally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Wilcox, the situation -which you just described would occur when a money order telegram had -been delivered to some party at some other office, some office other -than the Dallas central office? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he would have the draft in his hand that would have -been delivered to him by the telegraph company in some other office, -and then he would come to the Dallas central office and attempt to cash -that draft; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Lewis said it is possible that the transaction -with which he had such difficulty could have been a transaction such as -the one we have described; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In that event, you would not have any record of it in the -Dallas office? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it correct that you would not have any record of it in -the Dallas office even when the draft had been successfully cashed, as -it apparently subsequently was in this case? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You would still not have any record of it? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have produced 11 money orders in the form of -telegrams, transmitting money to individuals living at the YMCA here -in Dallas. Is it correct that these are the only 11 telegrams which -you were able to find addressed to the YMCA or to anyone at the YMCA -during some period beginning on or about October 1963, and running up -to approximately the end of November 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you, yourself, personally authorize or instruct that -the search be conducted which produced these telegrams? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been a search through every single money -order delivered through the Dallas office through the month of October -or November, 1963, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These 11 telegrams are the only 11 that were addressed to -the YMCA? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the dates covered by the search would be October -1 through the 17th of November 1963? Or what was it, as best you can -recall? - -Mr. WILCOX. The end of November, as I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Beginning when? - -Mr. WILCOX. Beginning the first part of October. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is a fact, is it not, that none of these 11 telegrams -are addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir; none of them are. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or to anybody using any of Mr. Oswald's known aliases? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we had better, for the record, indicate -the names of the people to whom these telegrams are addressed. There -is a telegram dated October 4, 1963, addressed to George McMurray, -transmitting $15, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is also a telegram dated October 10, 1963, -addressed to Michael C. Robinson, transmitting $100 to Mr. Robinson at -the YMCA, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And there is a telegram dated October 11, 1963, -transmitting $150 to James McGinley, is that right? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Also for the record we better indicate who sent these -telegrams. The telegram to Mr. McMurray was sent by Mrs. Mildred -McMurray in Plainsfield, N.J.; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The telegram to Mr. Robinson was sent by Mrs. S. R. -Robinson, of Charleston, S.C.; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The telegram to Mr. McGinley was sent by Cornelius -McGinley of Chicago; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a telegram dated October 15, 1963, to Mr. Jack -Burge from Rosalie A. Burge, Tulsa. Okla., transmitting $10; is that -correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is also a telegram dated October 19, 1963, to John -A. Casber from John Casber of Midland. Tex., transmitting $35? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A telegram dated October 28, 1963, to Gary Aue from Mrs. -G. C. O'Quinn, Ft. Morgan, Colo., transmitting $65. - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a telegram dated October 31, 1963, to Stanley S. -Qupiec from Stayea Houston of Ware, Mass., transmitting $50; is that -correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is also a telegram dated November 22, 1963, to -Welton Hayes from Louis W. Hayes, of Rome, N.Y., transmitting $25; is -that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And a telegram dated November either 27 or 28. - -Mr. WILCOX. It would be November 7. This is a transmission, November 7. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1963 to John M. Brandes, Jr., from Helen Tuttle, San -Antonio, transmitting $20; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And one dated November 22, 1963, to Frank or Grace -Fitzell, from the Akron Dime Bank in Akron, Ohio, transmitting $200; is -that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And one dated November 28, 1963, to George McMurray from -Mildred McMurray, Plainfield. N.J., transmitting $6; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the addresses in each case were located then at the -YMCA on North Ervay in Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those were the only money order telegrams to individuals -at the YMCA that you were able to find in the search of your records, -and you are satisfied that those are the only money order telegrams in -existence addressed to people in the YMCA during that period; is that -correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Lewis' statement of December 4, 1963, mentions -that the individual with whom he had difficulty in paying the money -order was a man of Spanish descent, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Lewis about that? - -Mr. WILCOX. We may have had it at the time we read this statement, but -I don't recall anything specific. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Lewis as to whether -he recognized this individual with whom he had difficulty in paying -the money order, as Lee Harvey Oswald, from pictures of Oswald which -appeared in the newspaper? - -Mr. WILCOX. I asked him about that and he said he couldn't describe -or associate the party to the extent that he could associate it with -Oswald's picture or anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He just had no recognition? - -Mr. WILCOX. Other than that he had some difficulty in paying a money -order. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as a result of these events that followed Mr. -Hamblen's statement to the newspaper reporter and the subsequent -investigation that was requested or instigated by the FBI and the -Secret Service and other investigatory agencies, you conducted certain -searches of certain files in your office in an attempt to locate any -money orders that Oswald might have received, or any telegrams that -Oswald might have sent during certain periods; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes; I can give you those dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you Exhibit 3001, which is a memorandum from -Mr. Semingsen, and ask you if that memorandum accurately sets forth -the dates and the checks that were made of the files in the Dallas -and Irving, Tex., offices of your company to determine whether or not -Oswald had received or sent any telegrams? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Semingsen testified this morning that the paying -office--that is, the office through which a money order is delivered, -maintains a chronological record or file of all money orders passing -through that office; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you caused the files for both -Dallas and Irving to be searched for the periods indicated in Exhibit -3001? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were unable to find any money order payable to Lee -Harvey Oswald or O. H. Lee or Alex James Hidell; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that money orders could be sent to someone -just by using initials or some shorthand name? - -Mr. WILCOX. No; you never see anything because you would have no way -to identify the man or associate it that you are paying it to them -correctly, associate it with any identification that he might have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since each individual must produce identification at the -time the money order is paid, the money order is naturally in the full -name? - -Mr. WILCOX. Correct. They could be accepting it for someone--it might -not be their correct name, but they could have some identification -that, if it was just a small money order, but we can't change that -identification. If it meets what shows on the money order, then we pay -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have never heard of a situation where a money -order is paid to somebody just addressed to him by initials or -something like that? - -Mr. WILCOX. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many offices, approximately, does the Western Union -office have in Dallas? - -Mr. WILCOX. There are eight branch offices. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Plus a central office? - -Mr. WILCOX. Plus a central office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to receive money orders through the branch -office? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are the files of money orders received through branch -offices kept in the branch offices, or the Dallas central office? - -Mr. WILCOX. Kept at our main office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that the search that you made of the records of the -central office would include money orders that were received through -any branch office located within the City of Dallas, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that your district covered not only the -City of Dallas, but surrounding communities including Irving? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are the records relating to money orders received through -these other offices of suburban communities located or kept in the -suburban offices or the Dallas central office? - -Mr. WILCOX. In this case, this was an agency office and it would -be--the records were kept at the Irving agency office. We did search -those records at the Irving agency office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That fact is indicated in Exhibit 3001, is it not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The records of telegrams or money orders received through -other suburban offices such as Garland, for example, would also be kept -in the Garland office, would they not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But no search was made of any suburban office other than -Irving; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Semingsen's memorandum also indicates that a search -was made of the files in Fort Worth and in New Orleans, but you have no -direct personal knowledge of what happened at those offices, do you? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We also have here a statement from Mr. Hamblen dated -December 5, 1963. Do you have the original of that statement? - -Mr WILCOX. Yes; I do have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the original as Exhibit No. 3007 on the -deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1963. - -I have initialed Exhibit No. 3007, Mr. Wilcox, and I would like you do -the same. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. This statement was apparently taken on December 5, 1963. -Do you recall the circumstances under which it was given? - -Mr. WILCOX. This was following a meeting and discussion that we held on -December 4, at which time we discussed the money orders and messages -with Mr. Hamblen, Mrs. McClure, and Mr. Lewis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at this discussion other than the -individuals you just mentioned and yourself? - -(Mr. Wilcox phoned his office re: correct date of meeting.) - -Mr. WILCOX. I did hold this meeting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that Mr. Wilcox has just -conferred telephonically with Mr. Semingsen and wishes now to clarify -the statements concerning the time on which certain meetings were held -with the employees. - -Mr. WILCOX. I did hold the meetings with these people on December 4, -and did obtain these statements, including the statement from Mrs. -McClure, Mr. Lewis, both indicated as December 4, and the statement -from Mr. Hamblen which is dated December 5. - -Following this meeting I endeavored to find the message or messages -that Mr. Hamblen was referring to, which he insisted Mrs. McClure had -accepted from Mr. Oswald. I did extract from our files all messages -matching the message numbers on the cash sheet prepared by Mrs. McClure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you to do this because Mr. Hamblen said -that a message with which Mrs. McClure had difficulty was given to her -by a man who Hamblen thought was Oswald, and that the message was one -to Washington, D.C., specifically to the Secretary of the Navy---- - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that it was accounted for on Mrs. McClure's sheet as -a night letter that was set forth on her cash sheet; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you then got all of the telegrams that were listed on -Mrs. McClure's cash sheets; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. From the 1st of November through the November 22. We could -not find any such messages. However, we did extract all messages going -to Washington, D.C., regardless of the names to whom they were sent, or -signed, including some messages going to other points, because of their -peculiar type of printing. - -Now, would you like to see those messages? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; I would. Let me ask you specifically if the -period covered in terms of this extraction was from October? - -Mr. WILCOX. From November 1. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You picked that period because Mr. Hamblen said that he -thought the event occurred about 10 days prior to the assassination; is -that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. Now, I think you have the only thermofax of -Mrs. McClure's. Would you want the original? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I do want to mark the original statement of Mrs. -McClure, dated December 4, 1963, which has been previously referred to -by Mr. Wilcox. I will mark it as Exhibit 3008 on the deposition of Mr. -Laurance R. Wilcox at Dallas, Tex., on March 31, 1964. - -I have initialed that exhibit, Mr. Wilcox, and would like to have you -do the same. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who prepared Mrs. McClure's statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. Mrs. McClure wrote that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She typed it on the typewriter herself? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at the time she prepared it? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss these incidents with her prior to the -statement? - -Mr. WILCOX. Only during the course of the meeting that she attended in -my office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the course of that time, Mrs. McClure indicated -to you, did she not, that she had no recollection of any of the events -described by Mr. Hamblen concerning the message allegedly sent to -Washington, D.C.? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's mark these telegrams as Exhibits 3009 through 3014. -I have initialed each one of them and would like to have you do the -same. I have not indicated on each one of them in detail. It is on your -deposition and on the dates, as I have on the others, but that fact -will appear from the record. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have now provided me with six telegrams, cables which -have been marked for identification as Exhibits 3009 through 3014, and -it is my understanding that these telegrams and cables were all shown -to Mr. Hamblen and he was unable to identify any of them as answering -the description of the telegram or cablegram with which Mrs. McClure -had had difficulty, and which Mr. Hamblen thought had been sent by a -person resembling Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And a thorough search of the files along the lines that -you have previously indicated was unable to produce any other telegrams -even remotely falling into the category described by Mr. Hamblen; i.e., -a telegram to Washington, D.C. or in a peculiar hand script such as -described by Mr. Hamblen to any destination, whether it be Washington -or otherwise; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have provided me with a letter from yourself to -Mr. Semingsen, dated December 6, 1963, which we will mark as Exhibit -3015, on deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, -1964. I have initialed that exhibit and ask you to do the same, sir. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. And ask you if you prepared the original of that letter -on or about December 6, 1963? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You sent the original of it to Mr. Semingsen, did you not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the letter accurately sets forth the events preceding -that date which we have been discussing here, does it not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have also provided me with a copy of a letter from -yourself to Mr. Semingsen, dated December 9, 1963, to which is attached -the original of statement from Mrs. Betty Bedwell, dated December 6, -1963, and A. I. English, dated December 6, 1963. I notice that Mr. -English's statement is not signed. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Signs.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. And I ask you if the original of it was signed at the -time you received it? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir; he just signed this on the typewriter to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; he did not himself sign it? - -Mr. WILCOX. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated below that it was in effect signed by -Mr. English when he delivered it to you? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Also attached is a statement of Miss Bess Mildred -Francis, dated December 9, 1963. Also attached is a statement of Doyle -E. Lane, dated December 9, 1963; and one of Mr. E. T. Pirtle, dated -December 6, 1963; and one of Ward Townsley dated December 6, 1963. Did -you receive those statements from the individuals thus described? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have marked the letter described above, together with -the attachments just described as Exhibit 3016 on the deposition of Mr. -Laurance R. Wilcox at Dallas, Tex., on March 31, 1964. I have initialed -the first page of that exhibit and would like to have you do the same. - -Mr. WILCOX. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you send the original of your letter dated December -9, 1963, to Mr. Semingsen on or about that date? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The statements made in that letter are true and correct -to the best of your knowledge, are they not? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have also given me the original of a statement dated -December 6, 1963, of Mr. Doyle E. Lane. Was that also attached to your -letter of December 9, 1963, to Mr. Semingsen? - -Mr. WILCOX. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive yourself from Mr. Lane the statement just -described? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me mark it as Exhibit 3017 on this deposition. - -Would you initial the statement of Mr. Lane which we have marked 3017? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes, sir. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. - -You previously testified, Mr. Wilcox, that you had a meeting on or -about December 4, 1963, with Mr. Hamblen, Mrs. McClure, and Mr. -Lewis in regard to the meeting we have been discussing, and you also -testified that you thought you had an additional meeting on December 9, -1963, at which Mr. Semingsen was present. Would you care to elaborate -on that? - -Mr. WILCOX. The meeting as you have outlined--the meetings on the dates -you have outlined are correct. The meeting on December 9, at which -Mr. Semingsen attended was for the purpose of confronting Mr. Hamblen -with the messages that we had extracted that were going to Washington, -or those which were in peculiar print, that had been accepted by Mrs. -McClure during the period of 1st of November until about November 22. -Mr. Hamblen, of course, could not identify any of these telegrams as -having been the message he described in his statement of December 2 and -December 5. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form a conclusion at that time as to the accuracy -of Mr. Hamblen's recollection concerning the events which he had -related to you and to the press? - -Mr. WILCOX. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that conclusion? - -Mr. WILCOX. That this whole thing was a figment of Mr. Hamblen's -imagination. I am fearful that he was just emotionally upset over the -events as they transpired, and this may have been the factor causing -him to say what he had said about the acceptance of the messages and -the money order, and possibly have something to do with his statements -to the press. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand you, you were perfectly satisfied at -that time that Oswald had never in fact been in the office either to -receive money orders or to send any telegram of the type described by -Mr. Hamblen, or as far as you have been able to determine, any other -telegram; is that correct? - -Mr. WILCOX. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this point I can't think of any further questions, Mr. -Wilcox. If you can think of anything that you would like to say that -in your opinion would be of assistance to the Commission in its work, -please indicate that at this time? Can you think of anything else? - -Mr. WILCOX. I can't think of anything else now, but if I do, I will be -happy to pass it along to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you do think of anything subsequently, call it to my -attention and I would appreciate it very much. - -Thank you very much, Mr. Wilcox. You have been very helpful and very -cooperative. The Commission appreciates the cooperation you and Western -Union have shown. Thank you very much. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks, and question marks -that probably should be periods, not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 1: "had an acquaintance with the Oswald's" was printed that way. - -Page 24: "thinking she said this latter" probably should be "later". - -Page 54: "October 18, 1938" is the date printed in Testimony; Oswald's -actual date of birth was October 18, 1939. - -Page 110: "ever been a subscribed to The Militant" should be either -"subscriber" or "ever subscribed". - -Page 112: "examine Watts' No. 8" probably should be "Dobbs' No. 8". - -Page 117: Sentence beginning "If my voice is low, young lady" is -unattributed, but in context, probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner. - -Page 130: "or anyone of a number of" was printed that way. - -Page 204: "through his hurrying be made" perhaps should be "he made". - -Page 208: "NVD" is either misprint or mispronunciation for "MVD". - -Page 273: "you know, what night or" probably should be "that night". - -Page 277: "Rubenstein" is spelled "Rubinstein" elsewhere in this and -other volumes of the Hearings. - -Page 282: "To be best of your recollection" was printed that way. - -Page 351: "Bogard was bound to own" probably should be "found". - -Page 352: "Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?" was -missing the period; changed here. - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings -Vol. X (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V10 *** - -***** This file should be named 44010.txt or 44010.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/1/44010/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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