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diff --git a/44009-0.txt b/44009-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..89195c3 --- /dev/null +++ b/44009-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,46209 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44009 *** + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ IX + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX: +Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen, +Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis, +Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne +De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted +with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in +1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service; +Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted +with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in +1962. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + Paul M. Raigorodsky 1 + Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) 27 + Thomas M. Ray 38 + Samuel B. Ballen 45 + Lydia Dymitruk 60 + Gary E. Taylor 73 + Ilya A. Mamantov 102 + Dorothy Gravitis 131 + Paul Roderick Gregory 141 + Helen Leslie 160 + George S. De Mohrenschildt 166 + Jeanne De Mohrenschildt 285 + Ruth Hyde Paine 331, 426 + John Joe Howlett 425 + Michael R. Paine 434 + Raymond Franklin Krystinik 461 + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Page + Commission Exhibit No. 364 93 + + De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.: + 1 277 + 2 278 + 3 279 + 4 279 + 5 279 + 6 279 + 7 279 + 8 279 + 9 279 + 10 279 + 11 279 + 12 282 + 13 282 + 14 282 + 15 282 + 16 26 + + Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.: + 1 437 + 2 441 + + Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.: + 270 408 + 271 408 + 272 411 + 273 411 + 274 411 + 275 424 + 276 424 + 277 426 + 277-A 429 + 277-B 430 + 278 432 + 278-A 432 + 461 347 + 469 390 + + Raigorodsky Exhibit No.: + 9 25 + 10 25 + 10-A 25 + 10-B 25 + 11 26 + 11-A 26 + 14 26 + 14-A 26 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY + +The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March +31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., +by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are +about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is +in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides +in Dallas. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Stoneleigh Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. Who resides at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas. + +Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the +Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is +the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving +on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the +attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective +investigations. + +The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the +U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson +by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The +Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of +depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the +assassination of President Kennedy. + +We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted +with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you +are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to +have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think +you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using +the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of +Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I +understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us +in that regard? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us +your general background, just give us your general background--when you +came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. My background? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, commencing--I don't know where to start, please? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, where were you born? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was, +oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to +the university there. + +Mr. JENNER. You did what, sir? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I went to the university there and I am escaping from +Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and +then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross +and the YMCA. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920. + +Mr. JENNER. 1940? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1920. + +Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sixty-five--exactly. + +May I have this not on the record? + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at +this point.) + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I came to this country. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1920? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they +advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United +States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air +Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received +an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of +war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to +this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't +been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and +graduated in 1924. + +Mr. JENNER. What degree? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even +though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in +different subjects. + +By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds, +and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat. + +And, that was in 1924--then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I +simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret +McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank--a Governor or +whatever you call it. + +Mr. JENNER. Federal Reserve Bank? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918--he was +appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then, +I stayed in California for some--from 1924 until more or less--until +1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a Dallas concern? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; that was a California concern, specializing in +the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for +Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.--just, +that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another, +getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton +Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that +time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction +engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we +organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and +we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to +Dallas because our business was good--I was sent to Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Your business was growing? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized +an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the +Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened +an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of +plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third +in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum +Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just +now--it is inoperative. + +Then, I continued to--I opened an office in Houston and continued +to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum +Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and +in the United States--lots of them--even in Russia, though I never +went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were +supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you +know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I had an order +from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this +should be off the record? + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at +this point.) + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let's see, now, Pearl Harbor was in 1939? + +Mr. JENNER. 1941; December of 1941. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1941? + +Mr. DAVIS. 1941. + +Mr. JENNER. December 8th. + +Mr. DAVIS. The war started in 1939. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Poland in September 1939. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Already then we had the War Production Board, though +to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board, +but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was +it? Probably 1941--before the war. + +Mr. JENNER. Before the war with Japan, you mean? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Before Pearl Harbor. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the +Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the +United States, which I did, and then I had to open--I worked under +DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five +offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston +and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got +ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I +resigned and came back to my business. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By +the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants +for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline +products, and the first plant was built in 1936--the Glen Rose Gasoline +Co. The second one was built in 1943--the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then, +I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my +back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me +there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't +speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me +to Dallas. + +That's very interesting what I am going to tell you--in an ambulance +from Houston--and there was a Dr. Paul Williams--he told me that +without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to +Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I +moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people +that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they +had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and +barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever +since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952--in 1952 I was asked +by--you know General Anderson, by any chance? + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was what we call--there was an organization in +Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an +Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a +Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe +and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the +production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO +countries. + +I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along +all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew +me--they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By +the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card. + +(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) + +I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't +return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and +I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I +came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to +different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti, +Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in Jamaica together with some +other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l +[spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all. +My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't +retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has +nothing to do with the---- + +Mr. JENNER. With the Longshoremen? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off +the record now. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record.) + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the +second marriage. Then, I have another daughter--maybe you know my +son-in-law, Howard Norris? + +Mr. DAVIS. Where is he--in Washington? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Howard Lee Norris, he graduated, I think, in 1951 or +1952. + +Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. What business is he in? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Lawyer of the University of Texas. + +Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am very proud of that. That's my child. + +(At this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to Counsel +Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. This is your daughter on the left? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. And, I will answer anything else you want to now. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened +to your splendid career, I assume that--and if this assumption is +wrong, please correct me--that the people of Russian descent who came +into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance, +that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest +in those people in the community and that in any event you became +acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this +general area--in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Louise, will you get me my church file? + +(Addressing his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek.) + +Mr. JENNER. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in +general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in +here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of +Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought +I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the +Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with +them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you +to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what +your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people +coming--like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community? + +Let's not make it Marina Oswald--I don't want to get into a specific, +but let's take a hypothetical couple? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the +many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas. + +There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities +in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship, +acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but +with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation--you +are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund? + +Mr. JENNER. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader +may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the +Tolstoy Foundation. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our +great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came +to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes +care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. +They process them, which means that they know all about them before +they come into here through their own organization or your different +organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States--you have +a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that +want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to +the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to +place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country +but--I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation--but also +in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United +States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy +Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, +rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean, +that's the No. 1 stamp. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the No. 1 stamp of an approval or of their +genuineness? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of approval--in fact, the U.S. Government recognized +that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy +Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work. + +Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in +through acquaintanceship--most of them. + +Mr. JENNER. They come because of prior acquaintanceship? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. With some. + +Mr. JENNER. With some people who are here? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--correspondence you see. Like we have +in Houston--we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know, +Yugoslavia--the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia +and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian +colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled +in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and +lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel. + +Mr. JENNER. They followed? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear +from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy +Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here. +They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where +you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at +this point.) + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let's have this on the record. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, because of my--I always believe that even though +I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the +only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this +country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church +in Texas--at Galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the +Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out, +whether they were one side of the fence or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. One side of what fence or the other? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only fence I know of is between the +communism and the anticommunism. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You are on the anticommunistic side of the fence? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh; of course. + +Mr. JENNER. I want that to appear on record is why I asked. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe +in 1949 or thereabouts--I have donated quite a bit of money to the +Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they +would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest +of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church +there, which they did. + +Mr. JENNER. What religion is that--the name of the church? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Russian--Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern +Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two +main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed +is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have +our own Patriarch at the head of our own church. + +Mr. JENNER. In Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, no, no; we have in New York--it's Metropolitan +Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was the pastor over in Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I will come to that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, when we got to--when I came to Dallas we had +Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an +American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me +because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. You must be acquainted with Father Royster? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about +the church here---- + +Mr. JENNER. The full name is Dimitri Robert Royster--go right ahead. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives +us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here +between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists +or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the +Guard. + +Mr. JENNER. The original church that you helped organize, that is +referred to as the Old Guard? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we +both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them. + +Mr. JENNER. You were the head of both churches? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong +to three churches. + +Mr. JENNER. They are different parishes in the same church, aren't they? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like +to explain to you--you see, in this country--I'm quite sure you know--I +don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell +you about? + +Mr. JENNER. I am primarily interested in this--from the depositions I +have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the +immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by +refugees who come here is through the church. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another +one--George Bouhe's folks. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name +of that one--what is that? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's St. Nicholas. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the St. Nicholas Church? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I'm head of that one. + +Mr. JENNER. You are head of that one? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you say it is a third one? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, it is not a third one here--just the two. Now you +see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again, +leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for +Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians, +Sicilians, or Lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for +the same religion even though their services in their own churches is +in their own language, but here they are all in the English language +because of Father Royster's. + +Mr. JENNER. Father Royster preaches the sermons in English? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he +was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this +church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them--that +means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in +fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which Father Royster +organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between +Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it---- + +Mr. JENNER. St. Nicholas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas--so that Father Royster belongs to +Metropolitan Leonty--Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you +may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan +Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the +revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it. +Metropolitan Anastasia is the head of the Russians outside of Russia, +because he is--whether he escaped Russia like all of us--therefore, +all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that +church. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned +it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about +each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the +Bolsheviks--all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old +anti-Communist group--period. + +Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because +nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there +except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought +against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston, +the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought +against communism and even though we came through different grounds, +some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so +we have a church over there. + +Now, I personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is +my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't +make any difference to me--I tried to get them together and I didn't +succeed in that town. In Houston--I think that is because it is only +one church--it is more successful. + +Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father +Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this +is hearsay--that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the +name of Clark. + +Mr. JENNER. Max Clark? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I mean, that's all hearsay--I do not know it for a +fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very +close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and +lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my +understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends--again, this +is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they +don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding. +And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not +many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them +groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her +fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable. + +Mr. JENNER. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal +sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches +that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well +acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each +other. They seek to help? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or +otherwise? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Those of Russian or Serbian or Central European derivation? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. About when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise +of---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That that happened that way? + +Mr. JENNER. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your +attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their +names--I never saw them before the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--had you heard of the Oswald name? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, never had. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those +things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have +yearly meetings. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say yearly? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Once a year--we meet to elect officers. We meet once a +year to elect the officers. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this true of both St. Nicholas and St. Seraphim? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend +to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now, +because, first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us +will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St. +Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there +are one or two of us left--it would be fine. You see, how we are at St. +Nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to +have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now +Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So, +our priest from Galveston comes up. + +Mr. JENNER. Comes up here? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And I personally don't like him--so I wouldn't go to +the services in my own church on his account. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our +people from our Synod, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. The Synod, S-y-n-o-d (spelling)? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who +will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but +the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any +better. We have about 10 families, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say different--you mean here in Dallas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Dallas--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the priest who comes up from Galveston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let me see--maybe I have it here. + +(Examining file.) + +Maybe he's not from Galveston--he comes from Houston, but he's the one +that was, you know,--can this be off the record--I just throw those +notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at +this point.) + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet +document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information +Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have +perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding +the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at +its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through +the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other +parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have +this statement in the record, and will you please copy it. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have that--I have a photostat of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to copy it in the record. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St. +Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church." + +In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev. +Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox +Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster, +a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster) +sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language +Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically +that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the +organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas +Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston +was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the +Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral. + +Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that +would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission. +Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and +Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since +the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel +and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky, +a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it +possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank +in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an +eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St. +Seraphim's Church. + +Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel +conducted occasional services--Sunday Vespers weekly and an early +Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed +an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel +was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the +members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since +one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the +property. + +On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood +by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly +afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734 +McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two +groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month +and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time. + +In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and +both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted. + +Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October +31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the +Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St. +Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster. + +For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father +Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father +Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander. + +In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father +Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the +weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the +benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of +that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal +Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956. + +In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and +to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's +Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at +4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were +arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building +served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March +and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In +1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The +house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a +rectory. + +In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction +of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia. + +Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to +approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy +has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with +two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday, +Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays +and on holy days. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is +entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern +Orthodox Church," when was that prepared? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I have no idea because I have--let's see--the early +part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything +historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or +can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something, +and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it." + +Mr. JENNER. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this +historical summary? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's my understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you read this historical summary? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events +that are recited in that 1-page summary? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does +Father Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the +recital reasonably accurate? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does +not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here +he said: + +"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish, +"and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. +Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own." + +Well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along +together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two +churches. + +Mr. JENNER. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your +testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that +expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church, +that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the +English language. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were +said in what language, again? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal +reason either. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St. +Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the +sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian +origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Either fought or escaped. + +Mr. JENNER. Fought the Communists or Bolsheviks or escaped from their +regime. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--because there are lots of women and children over +there, you see, they never fought against them. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not +fight. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. And because of that common experience they tended to stay +together? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--more closely knit. + +Mr. JENNER. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of +the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas was organized to begin with. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it +and you are more active in that Church? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of +that group, are you not? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I am president. + +Mr. JENNER. You are president of that group, but you are a member of +the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a +parishioner? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or +given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon? + +Mr. DAVIS. I would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for +the split of the church? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I just made a statement a while ago. + +Mr. DAVIS. I didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was +split? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean, +it's purely personality. + +You see, Father Royster at that time--that's the main point--Father +Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians +it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to +the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained, +but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by +Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so +he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get +in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be +ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan, +B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the Ukranian branch of +Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and +so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic +facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and +in fact, Ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the +rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of +their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian. + +Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I +mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but +verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked +me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek +Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened. + +You see, some of the statements--like he said, "In September of 1958 +the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to +that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia." + +Well, he is Russian Metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country. + +Mr. JENNER. The words "in this country" should be added there? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor, +but substantially, it is correct--what he said. + +Mr. JENNER. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy +the historical statement into the record? + +The REPORTER. Yes, sir. + +(The instrument referred to is set forth on pp. 8 and 9 of this volume.) + +Mr. JENNER. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and +otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the +views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with +respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I +understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas +Church. + +Mr. JENNER. Largely? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. So--I don't know how that came about--perhaps she is +Russian. I can understand so much--she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is +Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners, +by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There's no question about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of the history, there's no question about +it--largely? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Largely. + +Mr. JENNER. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one +major motivating force? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who +are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they +also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be +the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn +the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their +opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in +America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in +St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are +getting to--that is the first time I heard she was Russian--they told +me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and +that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald, +how they helped her and everything else and I asked them--"How did it +happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened. + +Mr. JENNER. She went to St. Nicholas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; St. Seraphim's. + +Mr. JENNER. And that caused what? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they +understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life. + +Mr. JENNER. She did what? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to +sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are +atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized +in St. Seraphim's? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas +Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she +believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a +factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist, +because Communists are atheists? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but +there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct--which was that the Communists may have +been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way +to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community. + +Mr. JENNER. Lead people to believe that you were a Christian? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And not an atheist? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined +and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one +thing? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see--I don't trust them in any kind of a condition +or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any +difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful--it's just like Mr. +Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know, +lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he +lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how +they operate. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there in due course come into this community a man by +the name of George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were here when he came here, were you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in +Dallas while I was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to +see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere +in that neighborhood. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of him prior to that time? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I heard of him through Jake Hamon. + +Mr. JENNER. Through Mr. Hamon? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Hamon, H-a-m-o-n [spelling]--Jake. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is he? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known, +and he told me there was a Russian here--do I know him, and I said, +"No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him--at a party. + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking about George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to +the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and +acquire some knowledge of his origin and background? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his +history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some +of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning +the business associations or contacts you may have had with him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt +comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans. + +Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by +the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and +they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations +and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, +and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" +Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"--yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand +that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the +University of Chicago. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the University of Chicago or Dartmouth? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Or what? + +Mr. JENNER. Dartmouth, or the University of Chicago? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It might be, now, but at that time when I first +learned it--he was at the University of Chicago. + +Mr. JENNER. And his first name? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say his first name was? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought you gave it to me the other day? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe I could get it from some other source? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--not from me. Now, when I first knew George he +was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in +Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his +own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil +operator. + +He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first +wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her name? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember; I'm sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have met her? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is +next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was--that's where +this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the +Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling]. + +Mr. JENNER. Was her name Wynne, W-y-n-n-e [spelling]? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; we called her something else--it will come to +me--just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were +spastic. + +Mr. JENNER. Was a boy and a girl? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. One of them since died. + +Mr. JENNER. The boy? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my +understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as +I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and +when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim +the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts, +but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and +my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit, +that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to +Dallas and join this Russian community? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And be a member, because---- + +Mr. JENNER. A member of what? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of the social group that they were here originally. +You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you +it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the +suit--whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs. +Crespi can give you more information than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. whom? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one +who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that +time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been +borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time. +The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly. + +Mr. JENNER. The last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; $500. + +Mr. JENNER. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you +can't recall at the moment? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Isn't that funny? + +Mr. JENNER. And he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that +correct? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he married a third time? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A third time. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that his present wife? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And who is she? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question---- + +Mr. JENNER. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your +recollection? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean. + +Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she +was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that +she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our +form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist, +Anarchist or what. + +Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl. + +Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was +either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age--came +to China? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that +she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never +expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of +Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You +know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel +Jenner off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to +the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political +views? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you +say--"And political views?" + +Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then +his wife, Jean. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that +after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems +from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times, +he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the +Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to +provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would +like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but +in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had +some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes +him tick? + +He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and +we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his +personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with +you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the +political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a +character? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and +believe me, that's the only time--first of all, I've got George De +Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain +set of Russian emigre? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have +against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a +donation. + +Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt +like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he +never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me +any political questions or give me his views except one time when he +went to take the trip--the walking trip. + +Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border +down to Panama? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was +elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags +about things--he was bragging about many things. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he +met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why +didn't he shoot this b----d? + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?" + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding +smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative +in his attire in the sense of nonconforming? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best +definition I can give you. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a +by-the-Baltic German accent. + +Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it +is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think +she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was +definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George--now this +is again my idea---- + +Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your +idea. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I +don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George +in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give +him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a +religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead +the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything +but the Spartan life in this country. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when +he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal, +maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can +remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about +and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. To the banker--the banker--Commercial de Haiti. You +can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you +want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time--he was +trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with +Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and +they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could +pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get +people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I +believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of +Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's. + +Mr. JENNER. Down through Mexico? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI +and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or +nothing." + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. John De Menil? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine. +He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go +with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as +to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the +Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every +country in the world--you know what I am trying to say? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I do. I am familiar with the name Schlumberger. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And that he might be interested in going in business +in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and +nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down +after the investigation. + +Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some +correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things +began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I +thought I better keep a file on him. + +Mr. JENNER. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the +works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; you know, he was consultant to the Yugoslav +Government? + +Mr. JENNER. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government. +In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of +our Government, maybe--I don't know under what protocol that we were +helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in +order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some +man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--I can say this--I +don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him +because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times, +but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and +asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give +him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he +wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What +could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly +all right, I mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's your opinion of him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field +is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of +underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job, +and as far as I know he quit the job--he was not fired. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community +for truth and veracity? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this--I +don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person. + +Mr. JENNER. His reputation in that respect is poor or bad? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad. + +Mr. JENNER. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of +morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad. + +Mr. JENNER. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability +in the profession which he pursues? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Good. + +Mr. JENNER. For example--as a petroleum geologist? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; petroleum engineer--good. His knowledge of +languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I +believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there, +where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also +went there at the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal +American? If he has a reputation? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now, +remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you +see, than he was before with his second wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds +was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his +friends. + +Mr. JENNER. From a prior social circle? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he met them--I don't know where he met them, +but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was +originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt +in Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the last 5 years, let's say? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and +George Brown--they are brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. What business are they in? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, again, don't put this down. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr. +Raigorodsky, off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now; I want this on the record. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George has been friends with many, many influential +people in many cities. + +Mr. DAVIS. In all of them, I imagine. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of +important people? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--he was my friend, I was his friend--he was Jake +Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend. + +Mr. DAVIS. How often did De Mohrenschildt see him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jake? + +Mr. DAVIS. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and +George Brown? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite +often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to +deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any particular business that he had in +Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What information do you have regarding his interests or +business in Houston--I take it that it came from his making statements +to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, except in his dealing with John De +Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters--you +see, there is a copy from John De Menil. + +Mr. JENNER. Where do you have information as to whether he was required +to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He--I can't answer that. + +Mr. JENNER. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in +Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sure. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a professor at Rice Institute? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--he's head of the Russian church in +Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. He is the head of the Russian church in Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--I'm a +godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr. +Jitkoff's background. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. Jitkoff--he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you +call it. + +Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he, by the way, your best guess? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is +younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is 50 some odd +years--55. + +Mr. JENNER. He is closer to 50 than to 60? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he somewhere between 50 and 60? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a +tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club. + +Mr. JENNER. Where--Dallas or Houston? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is +teaching Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Was De Mohrenschildt an athletic man? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he interested in tennis? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; very much so. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically +inclined person? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Also interested in tennis? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport +to the extent of engaging in the sport itself? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. As far as I know--swimming. + +Mr. JENNER. Ice skating? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember anything about that, but they always +played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they +played tennis all the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did either of them ever live in the Stoneleigh Hotel? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same +people--the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace--the +Tower Terrace. + +Mr. JENNER. Are these buildings all in proximity one with the other? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the +Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition to being an expansive person, is De +Mohrenschildt a generous man? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I would say he is a generous man. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the +goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in +like circumstances? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say he will do it because he wants to show +what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It +would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were +appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere, +while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and +sincere about it? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for +example? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. And was he a man given to extreme statements in public? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a +big party--I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I +met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at +a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons +and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do +it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would +say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever +it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and +somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's +the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest, +but we didn't know how much truth there was to it. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you give us the reason for that view? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he's liable to do anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no +control over himself, really? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's what it is--because of his character. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the +type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he +might hesitate to do himself? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business +in which he is engaged in Haiti? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government, +it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I +think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan +or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there--he +is there, and moved his furniture. + +Mr. JENNER. That's so--in the spring of 1963? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have had correspondence with him since? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De +Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate +almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything +else in it. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here is a letter of June 30 that must have been left +here. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this June 30, 1963, or 1962? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It must be 1963--yes, it is 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of +November 22--I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he +had been in Dallas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. After this--that's right; I see it is 1963, after this +fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas--which I was called on. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your +testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife +Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with +the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's +son. + +As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe +sued directly, to see what you could do to help out? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; friends of her family. + +Mr. JENNER. Friends of her family? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, Mrs. Crespi, appealed to me to see what I can +do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Crespi? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her +husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.--a cotton +exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Crespi? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you understand Mr. De Mohrenschildt is doing over +in Haiti? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Over there? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground +floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is +the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy +plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted +to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build +plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You +see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist +in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and +all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be +interested. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of +an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't a sort of--he is adolescent. + +Mr. JENNER. He is adolescent? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George will never grow old. + +Mr. JENNER. But will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He always did. + +Mr. JENNER. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that +amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. When we were 16--that's right--any kind of pranks. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a prankster? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean, +his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys +it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very +effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned. + +Mr. DAVIS. Would you say he is very distinct---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There is no word for that--very engaging, I suppose +would be the nearest. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think +De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Occasionally. + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with the Haitian venture? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he sought to have me to participate in the deal. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did or didn't? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was to be what kind of a deal? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he +was planning to do. + +(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken +from your file. There is handwriting on the chart--is that George De +Mohrenschildt's handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he send that chart to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; here's the envelope. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which +the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12, +1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of what he plans to do there. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what he planned to do? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows +he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking, +cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill, +weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available +for these industries." + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information that he is surveying the +physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is +how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting +jobs. + +Mr. JENNER. For the Haitian Government? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. For the Haitian Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you +informed? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know--I am not informed. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was +legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am +getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior +character? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I +think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John +De Menil. + +Mr. JENNER. Which he was sending to John De Menil? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a copy for me. + +Mr. JENNER. It is to John De Menil? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would I have your permission to have these documents in +your file duplicated? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure. + +Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would +have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously +pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in +which it was originally? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I will be able to go through it with you. + +(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs. +Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to +comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing +office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as +requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition +continued as follows:) + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows +what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and +everything. + +Mr. JENNER. There were two files there, as I recall it. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have them both--the other one is on the well +operation. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I understand. You were participating with him in some +drilling? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to +anything? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. One dry hole and one other. I want to ask you +something? + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H. +Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of +mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country. +We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago. +His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production +Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several +oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in +contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that +Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number +and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he +will come over here. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, I'm sure he is. + +Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Basil Zavoico? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is he? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Basil--he is a Russian. His father was a general in +the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been--his primary +business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant +on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been +with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a +business of his own mostly connected with oil financing. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he at one time reside in Dallas? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he resided in Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George +De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings. +Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with +George than I had. + +Mr. JENNER. And he lives in Green Farms, Conn.? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything +that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first, +in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and +secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and +interests of George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told--it +is a hearsay--that after meeting Marina Oswald--the way Russians met, +there was a party somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. There was what? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A party--a social gathering. + +Mr. JENNER. A party? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Somewhere--I don't remember where. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in this country? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several +Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with +Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of +everything that they told me that stuck in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this +party? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say that Mr. Bouhe and Anna Meller. + +Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other +Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party. + +Mr. JENNER. We have had some off the record discussions all in the +presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred +during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have +failed to bring out. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off +of the record. + +Now, may I say something myself? + +Mr. JENNER. Certainly. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Would you care to know what my opinion of the +assassination is, or is that just an opinion? + +Mr. JENNER. All right; let's have it. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I still believe it is a conspiracy. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, on what do you base that opinion? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have read--I'm quite sure everything that you +have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these +interrogations. + +There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like +Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the +basis of your opinion in that respect? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them +operating, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off +the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I want that on the record. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well--the fact that they gave you all of the record, +they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around +in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out +of Russia--I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person +whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was +(snapping his fingers) so--just like that. It just reads too much like +a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they +surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things +which he received in Russia and in this country. + +Now, Marina, I don't know anything about her. + +Mr. JENNER. This is your supposition and rationalization on your part? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now. I have your file---- + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now you take anything you want out of it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's do it this way--I have your file which you +have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt." + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I will just identify these documents. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You don't need to. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I need it for my record. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, all right. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not questioning you. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'm not questioning you. + +Mr. JENNER. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate +telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or +what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a +circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. +1]. + +What are they and how did you get those? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent them to me. + +Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt sent that to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United +States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove +to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United +States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information +about him. + +Mr. JENNER. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a +letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston, +Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the +second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand +corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky." + +In whose handwriting is that notation? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. His. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and this was the--outlining a project in +Haiti and the West Indies. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there an outline enclosed? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian +Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George +De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National +Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.] + +That was enclosed with the letter? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline, +and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned. + +Mr. JENNER. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page +carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be +the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1, +1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De +Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. These documents were transmitted to you. Did you save the +envelope? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.] + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this looks like it. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in +his handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's August 1962? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's it. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read +that for me? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, yes; it is the Banque Commerciale D'Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De +Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles." +This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.] + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a photostat. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt send that to you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On or about July 31, 1962, or shortly thereafter. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The next document consists of--it looks like an +organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.] + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart +of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. And here again there is some longhand writing in ink. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that De Mohrenschildt's writing? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And his signature? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And he also has written on there "Dallas, September 11, +1962." + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit +No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was +transmitted to you, too? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to +what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. +10.] And just a diagram? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything else accompany that diagram? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, I'm quite sure nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt +Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.--is that what that is? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no; that's De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt. +Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas." + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It has a signature by "Tardieu". How did you come by that? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent it to me. + +Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16], +appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr. +Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt." +On the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize +the handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's signed by George. + +Mr. JENNER. It's George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that +letter is you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the memorandum is for you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the +upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue +stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston, +Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then +apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and he investigated it later. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he +is not interested? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. But read this. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + + "Dear Paul: + + George De Mohrenschildt is a nice man, but I do not think his + project is very well cooked. It is slightly visionary and not + specific at all. This, of course, is my own personal reaction + which I am giving you for your confidential information. It was + also the reaction of my friend on Wall Street to whom I talked + in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea + of George De Mohrenschildt. + + With kinds regards and best wishes, + + Yours sincerly, + + /S/ JOHN DE MENIL + cp + John de Menil + + JdM:cp + + Dictated by Mr. de Menil over the telephone from New York." + +The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962, +with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit +No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You +received that, did you? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary; +is that correct? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to Mr. +George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August +27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. +10-B.] + +From whom did you receive that? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. From Mr. de Menil. + +Mr. JENNER. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The +envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May +11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First +National Building, Dallas, Tex. + +Do you recognize the handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card +[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De +Mohrenschildt's handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it a card enclosed in that envelope? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is an original of a letter addressed to +Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M." +[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.] + +Is that George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that +letter in his handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you received that in due course? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This was written from Port-au-Prince. + +Mr. JENNER. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans +Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.] + +The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts, +it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over +the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt," +and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner +is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.] + +That is a letter to you, is it? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to +you, it looks like that is his handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, that George's handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September +12, 1963, was enclosed? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, I'm sure it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked +in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his +testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks +like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it +has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted, +accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note +on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18, +1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.] + +It begins, "Dear Paul," and is signed by "Geo. De M." + +Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's +handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, they are. + +Mr. JENNER. And was the card enclosed in the envelope here? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, and here is another letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on +both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at +Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit +No. 4.] + +Do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, Mr. +Raigorodsky? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. De Mohrenschildt's. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June +30--of what year? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1963. This is very interesting--this is a map of +Haiti. You see where he sent me--he said "Our Shada Concession." + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the +map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's George De Mohrenschildt's. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that from him? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one +of the letters. + +Mr. JENNER. One of the letters I have identified? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But all of that is his handwriting? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil +possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession." + +Mr. JENNER. What is "Shada"? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's where he claims he had the concessions for the +hemp. + +Mr. JENNER. For hemp or sisal there? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sisal. + +Mr. JENNER. These things will all show up on any photostat immediately +of this? + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has +authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified +them in the record, so one thing is helpful--I don't have to go to the +trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and +secondly, in the event--if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I +will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of +this questioning of you. + +Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would +like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily, +also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to +the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to +here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been +under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this +personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the +foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11, +11-A, 14, and 14A. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost +at this moment as I was then. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been very helpful throughout this. + +Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this +deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will +be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some +corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a +privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also +have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your +deposition is with respect to all these alternatives. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when +you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help +you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, we thank you very much. + +Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE) + +The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on +March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. +Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. +Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Come in Mr. and Mrs. Ray and sit down. + +Mr. RAY. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed +it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we +are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, I'm sorry. You are supposed to have 3 days' notice. + +Mr. RAY. That's all right. We're here now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this +time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you +before we start. + +(Witness complying.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about +to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. RAY. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the +testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted +to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and +Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I believe Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; and I read it and have your name, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order +and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure +governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that +letter and copies of such documents? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed +to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday. + +Mrs. RAY. Monday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is +entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose +technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not +have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you +are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that +correct? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the +events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was +held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related +to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about +meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas +during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into +that, would you state your full name for the record? + +Mrs. RAY. Me? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what is your full name? + +Mrs. RAY. Natalie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your last name is---- + +Mrs. RAY. Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. R-a-y [spelling]? + +Mrs. RAY. R-a-y [spelling]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence? + +Mrs. RAY. Route 3, Detroit, Tex.--here, you mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Where were you born? + +Mrs. RAY. Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. Stalingrad. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when were you born? + +Mrs. RAY. In 1922, May 1922. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over +Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you +up and other Russian people? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp, +in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you in Germany? + +Mrs. RAY. I been there until I come to America, 1946. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States; +what were the circumstances of your coming here? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated +by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and +then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send +us to Russia. At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers, +something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we +be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him, +well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at +home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American +man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will +not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get +marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that +they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I +am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending +all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I +have to stay until we get married. Well, they--Russians don't give me +permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became +as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could +marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah, +I guess 1945 or 1946--let me see, yeah, in 1945 because--or 1946. I +guess. I'm sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were both in Germany at the time? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on, +you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come. +We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I +go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I +guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right; that's not important. + +Mrs. RAY. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946, +I'm sorry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to the United States with your husband, +is that correct? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; well, we stay year in Germany after we marry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then when he left Germany you came back to the United +States? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I go with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you an American citizen now? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I met them at this party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell +us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of +your recollection just how it happened. + +Mrs. RAY. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris, +Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my +address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have +any--nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with Russian speaking people? + +Mrs. RAY. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in +Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone +and said that--"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I +said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how +to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell +her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they +always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men +have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well, +I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have +contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr. +Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found +one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They +already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be. +She said on Friday--Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she +said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what +just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United +States. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this, is that right? + +Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at +this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you +like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. + +Mrs. RAY. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will +come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went +to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were there, approximately, would you say? + +Mrs. RAY. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots +of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know +what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and +this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this +Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and +asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did +you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't +have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do +much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or--I said, "Oh, +that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have relatives in Russia now that you know of? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have a niece what I been--she write my mother passed +away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when +Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay +and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two +children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and +one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my +mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was she living in Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in +Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Kharkov? + +Mrs. RAY. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's +not too far from Kharkov. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I interrupted your story about your conversation with +Marina. Would you go on with that? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to +come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I +said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy +to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess +they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"--I let be get contact +now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get +her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and +I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you +want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her +husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody +and he speak just perfect Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak to you in Russian? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come +you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well, +he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You +just been three---- + +Mr. DAVIS. Excuse me, how long? + +Mrs. RAY. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him, +I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh, +it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always +staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to +be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe +he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I +don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would +want to tell you the answer? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, always; he be very close. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to +learn Russian? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian. +I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English"; +I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak +Russian. He just came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect +a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3 +years? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know +American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really, +it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak +Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak +so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my +husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember +him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and +he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce +and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to +his wife, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with +Oswald as best you can recall it. + +Mrs. RAY. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and +we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her +about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking +her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and +we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much +conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her where she lived when she was in Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from +Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with +her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his +paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told +them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got +paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for +little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his +paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the +Russians; did she say? + +Mrs. RAY. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go +back to America. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long they stayed in Moscow? + +Mrs. RAY. She stayed 1 year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She said they were in Moscow 1 year? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American +Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow +before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian +Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her +paper and they left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians gave her the papers? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina mention she had lived in Leningrad at one time? + +Mrs. RAY. No; not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in +Kharkov? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn what kind of job Oswald had while he was in +Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory, +some factory and we don't get any details. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where this factory was located? + +Mrs. RAY. Located what? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the factory that Oswald worked in? + +Mrs. RAY. In Minsk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do +you know about that? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they +coming and stay in Moscow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for +a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and +then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told +us that she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl, +she says she come back from Moscow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. From Moscow? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know--let +me see how she say--that she come from Moscow. She fly--not fly--I do +not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but +she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she +been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For a year? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not tell you what they were doing there for +a job? + +Mrs. RAY. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and +that's as far as I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you +could tell? + +Mrs. RAY. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she +don't understand English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment +they had to live in when they lived in Minsk? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where they lived when they were in +Moscow? + +Mrs. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that they may have told +you about the time that they were in Russia together? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things. +I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing. +All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so +easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my +impression been that everything is get better, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how much money Oswald was paid at his +job? + +Mrs. RAY. Where, there? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. RAY. No, uh-uh. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why Oswald went to Russia in the first +place? + +Mrs. RAY. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he +went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to +Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he +want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then Mrs. Harris is one +that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to +stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's +party, is that right? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes--no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it +and Zena--that's Mrs. Harris--don't know either who they are but when +we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in +conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come +back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs. +Harris told you that, is that right? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion +about Oswald amongst the people there? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go +to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early--I don't +recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they +don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go +and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well, +we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at +this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they +gone and everything is forgot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that +there was a discussion about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah, next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that? + +Mrs. RAY. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We +went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we +staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but +she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2 +weeks, Marina and her baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"--said she just +want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and +then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna +Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other +words a week after? + +Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday, +that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask +by George Bouhe--or how you say? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe. + +Mrs. RAY. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what +being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and +that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his +wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both +there, is that right? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir; he. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yourself and your husband? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Harris. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Harris? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot +recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm; +I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been +from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Miss Biggers--Tatiana Biggers? + +Mrs. RAY. Tatiana Biggers, yeah, she from Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else there that you remember? + +Mrs. RAY. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't +remember what her name---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Lydia Dymitruk? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what +was said at this party or get-together? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him, +well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come +America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him +back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't +know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what +they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia +and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what +for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said +"Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he +cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every +place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time +work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give +job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and +said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to +making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her +here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty. +They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been +trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have +nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her +and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her, +not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell +me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living. + +Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they +give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days +and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia +when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him +and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in +Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need +him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind +of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't +know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot--he don't +going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have +some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him." + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is what Bouhe said? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she +is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him, +we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else was said at this time? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't know; I cannot recall right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or +not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. Said Russia, +you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some +kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent +but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia +because so easy way to coming to America. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said +about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians? +What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can +recall the substance of that conversation. + +Mrs. RAY. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what +try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but +said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we +don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told +him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said, +"You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you +know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia +and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They +going to do such a trick that you surprise. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to college in Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. In Leningrad. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Leningrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And this was while you were living in Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad +and then I went home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Back to Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you study in Leningrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Economist Statistics. + +Mr. DAVIS. Economics Statistics? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Economics Statistics. + +Mrs. RAY. Economics Statistics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you study? + +Mrs. RAY. Three and a half year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you study in Leningrad, what college? + +Mrs. RAY. Soljanoy Calach--that's salt. I suppose to after I finish +they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia, +Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish +in Irkutsk, Siberia. + +Mr. DAVIS. This was a Leningrad college? + +Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's Stalingrad. + +Mr. DAVIS. I mean college. + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; Leningrad--street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim +Gorky Street; that's college. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you there in Leningrad studying, what year, +what years? + +Mrs. RAY. You mean when? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. RAY. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not +permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go +this far--that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and +I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home +in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying +school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You +have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying +there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war +started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to +write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started +that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in +Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the Germans arrived in Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; when Germans come there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad +from about 1937, is that right, to 1941? + +Mrs. RAY. In 1941 when I coming home and just about 4 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you +started at the university in Leningrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3-1/2 year +and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you +know, practice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice +program in connection with your college? + +Mrs. RAY. No; at this time that's my job. That's where I have to go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go from Leningrad to Siberia to start +work? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come +back and then they assign me to Siberia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And, you actually went to Siberia before you came to +Stalingrad? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to +Leningrad? + +Mrs. RAY. This time I did not stay long. I had this plant they have on +ground. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Salt processing? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like +to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to +admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I +coming home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you +went there the first time? + +Mrs. RAY. No; but I been to Siberia before on practice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having +with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here +by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him +or asked him to do it. + +Mrs. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first I talk +with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said +why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him +back, never can tell what is going happen. George--one said he don't +have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is +silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--I +don't know how to explain. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mental case? + +Mrs. RAY. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any +count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have +enough sense. Said--they said they going to be through with him. They +don't want have anything to do with him any more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this conversation carried on in Russian or in English? + +Mrs. RAY. In Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was your husband there at the time? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me +sometimes. He remember this discussion, too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did +Mr. Bouhe? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on +English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we +tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald +might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married +to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason +that led you to suspect he might be an agent? + +Mrs. RAY. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot--I don't know +how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can +quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They +send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go +home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there +and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he +seems--from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but +not as far as this; other, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought that in addition to his apparent--in +addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he +was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was +able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought +he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to +believe that? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, main things--I don't thought those things be made +him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people +quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't +thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man +coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can +tell what they---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would do? + +Mrs. RAY. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they +don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to +other country and working. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people +who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside +Russia and be agents for Russia? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I never received but I do know that we have it in Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know; do you have schools like that? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in +military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We +study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the +people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need, +you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a +war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians do not want a war? + +Mrs. RAY. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them +have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves, +but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures +where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other +countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to +always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as +much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it. +I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's +first time I meet these people. + +Mr. DAVIS. Where would that school be; do you know? + +Mrs. RAY. Which kind? + +Mr. DAVIS. School where they would teach people this. + +Mrs. RAY. That is really secret. They don't let you know. In Russia? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mrs. RAY. I don't know if they do train agents. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were told this when you were going to school in +Leningrad, is that correct? + +Mrs. RAY. Yeah. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion +as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a +Russian agent? + +Mrs. RAY. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided +he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we +don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been +wondering, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree +that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did +not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian +agent? + +Mrs. RAY. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they +do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be +not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such +difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any +such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not +Russian agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the other details of these +conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can +recall? + +Mrs. RAY. No; that all I recall right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his +wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that +correct? + +Mrs. RAY. No, sir; I never see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the +Commission should know that you have not already told us? + +Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know nothing else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you would like to add to your +testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly +well? + +Mrs. RAY. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I +saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away +and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do +you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man; +made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there +here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when +my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well, +you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he +said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility +after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the +assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might +have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again? + +Mrs. RAY. No; we not. See, my husband called George Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination? + +Mrs. RAY. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and +said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said, +"Well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "We +just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any +enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure +out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they +don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we +been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just +want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one +Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and +he thinking I am telling--am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina, +and this man is---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Attorney General. + +Mr. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank +you very much for coming in. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY + +The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand? + +(Complying.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. RAY. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal +staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination +of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to +take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted +to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, +and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that +Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would +contact you to take your testimony. + +Mr. RAY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive +Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's +procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the +letter? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness +to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify +although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive +the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post +office. + +Mr. RAY. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your +testimony at this time? + +Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates +basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning +the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your +full name for the record? + +Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't. + +Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir? + +Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Texas? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir? + +Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a +hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for +Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right +now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am +going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as +assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2 +years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray? + +Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right? + +Mr. RAY. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which +you met and married your wife? + +Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already +know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army +used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen +work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she +and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was +go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and +feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her +back to the United States; is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later +discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in +Frankfurt. + +(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney +general of Texas leaves the room.) + +Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think +actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which +would have been 16, 17 months, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank +when you met your wife? + +Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your +wife when you were in Germany? + +Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps +but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send +all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to +Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and +never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government +stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go +back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about +our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get +all the Russian nationals back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian +authorities before she could marry you? + +Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't +say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see +the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here? + +Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was +during that time that they were trying to send them all back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and +his wife, Marina? + +Mr. RAY. I met them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your +meeting them, where was it, what happened? + +Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how +you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your +contact was. + +Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his +wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or +something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten +acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and, +actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over +here. We came and we met them over here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the party? + +Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met? + +Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to +go to the Ford party? + +Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we +went to this party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of +Declan P. Ford? + +Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were +made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford +from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be +and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we +were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes +on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was +said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along +with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and +went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday +night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on +Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until +Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at +the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald +was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because +when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get +acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't +get acquainted with Oswald or his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald +at all? + +Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a +handshake or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can +remember at the moment, is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. No, I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald? + +Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was +kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have +any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English? + +Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English, +is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the +ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you? + +Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I +wasn't around him very much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford +party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in +your presence? + +Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember? + +Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or +Miller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right? + +Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband +was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]? + +Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time? + +Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and +Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston +was there. I believe she was from Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name? + +Mr. RAY. No; I don't now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you? + +Mr. RAY. What was the first name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana. + +Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe +she was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe? + +Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got +acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there? + +Mr. RAY. Well, I might. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really. + +Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to +the best of your recollection. + +Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a +nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think +the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of +this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to +help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly, +George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion? + +Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too +good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He +wasn't real good to her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have +beaten Marina up? + +Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had +gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was +the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he +was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned? + +Mr. RAY. Yeah. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald? + +Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald +along these lines as far as you can remember? + +Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea +and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed +me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did +have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said +at this point? + +Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no. +I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee +and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and +that's the way it went. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether +or not Oswald might be a Russian agent? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me +like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for +all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States +and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time +that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you +know what I mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean? + +Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my +mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked +odd to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife +out partly related to the difficulties you had had? + +Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known +the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and +you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered +at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much +trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did +look odd to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember +amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this +question? + +Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say +whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago +and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you +know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I +wouldn't say for sure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in +Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people +that were at the house? + +Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some +Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to +death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian +and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all. +I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking +to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of +leaves Ed and I out when we are together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion +on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't +want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you +remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have +good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a +job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these +reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was +not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines? + +Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and +I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the +Russians would not want him or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint +recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you +believe? + +Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility, +see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying +is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it +is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm +recollection? + +Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the +Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit +prior to the assassination? + +Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had +completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure +we talked about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation +might have been? + +Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the +country. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned? + +Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that +they might have sent him back for something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you +recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's +involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the +assassination? + +Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got +home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald +and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the +guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know, +the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know, +brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes +misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be +mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President. +I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the +President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and +so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these +people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the +guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short +conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said +it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time +I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year +had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a +year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he +remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told +me "Yeah, that's the guy." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or +not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have +been the man who really did assassinate the President? + +Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how +Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place +at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all +those places in that short length of time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what +he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at +this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories? + +Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure +how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and +then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how +many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre. + +Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from +place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little +doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement +based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and +you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did +not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he +was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion +with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George +was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He +said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying +to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy +when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I +remember that statement. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he +tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his +previous association with Oswald? + +Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying +to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind? + +Mr. RAY. I think so; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told +us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe? + +Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the +paper", said "It's all in there." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I +don't remember anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about +that? + +Mr. RAY. About this deal? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time? + +Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody +else that was at this party about this assassination? + +Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now, +that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie +a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but +anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we +did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to +get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and +on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and +that's--of course, we discussed it then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together +at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was +discussed? + +Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the +whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into +the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how +it came about, you know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was +there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a +Russian agent? + +Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was +said about it? + +Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or +agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a +Russian agent? + +Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a +Russian agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did +you get that opinion? + +Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I +would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever +telling you that they thought he was? + +(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.) + +Mr. RAY. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be? + +Mr. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or +not he was a Russian agent or might be? + +Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation +that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or +something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course, +you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would +want, you know, for a Russian agent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is just---- + +Mr. RAY. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the +people that knew him thought; I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is just your own thought on it? + +Mr. RAY. That is my own thoughts on it, see. + +Mr. DAVIS. Have you all--I might inject here--have you all gone over +the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of +these other people that it was strange about them being able to come +out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move +about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that +it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and +my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country +and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or +longer--how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him---- + +Mr. DAVIS. Going on 3 years. + +Mr. RAY. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of +ridiculous to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the +Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife, +wasn't it? + +Mr. RAY. Yes. + +Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where +the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there +been very frequent--I mean, have you and your wife gone--I believe this +was the first time? + +Mr. RAY. This was the first time we ever. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did they mention about this having happened fairly +frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in +Dallas? + +Mr. RAY. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know, +somewhere around New Year's--Christmas or New Year's; something like an +annual affair for them to get together. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did you know--were there any others in this group or did +you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story +like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go +out of Russia? + +Mr. RAY. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were +Russian descent or else they were like--they had married a Russian over +there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody +there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of +them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard of no other examples where people had come +out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct? + +Mr. RAY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You know or did you hear of it? + +Mr. RAY. I did not hear. + +Mr. DAVIS. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since +the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and +go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to +contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this +proved to be? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on +the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and +the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally +gave up. + +Mr. DAVIS. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence +it has been made easier to communicate back and forth? + +Mr. RAY. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a +couple years before we even knew it. + +Mr. DAVIS. How long has this been you received that information? + +Mr. RAY. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by +when my wife found out about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she +died, do you know? + +Mr. RAY. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure +that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near +Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you +know, took place, in Arzamas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know +or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion +that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this +point, go right ahead. + +Mr. RAY. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down +here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much. + +Mr. RAY. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with +what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the +guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses +of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI, +because of that. They might contact these people and find out more +about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think they have talked to most of them. + +Mr. RAY. I am sure they have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN + +The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen? +Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give? + +Mr. BALLEN. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin +mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact +you this week to take your testimony. + +The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to +authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +and Joint Resolution of Congress 137. + +Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of +the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did +receive those, did you not? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts +with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your +association with George De Mohrenschildt. + +Will you state your full name? + +Mr. BALLEN. Samuel B. Ballen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. BALLEN. 8715 Midway Road. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? + +Mr. BALLEN. Dallas 9. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir? + +Mr. BALLEN. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior +officer in several corporations. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Included among those corporations is the High Plains +Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are an American citizen, sir? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in the United States? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? + +Mr. BALLEN. In New York City. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? + +Mr. BALLEN. November 1950. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your age, sir? + +Mr. BALLEN. Forty-two. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background? + +Mr. BALLEN. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend +Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y., +and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University, +Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University, +and Texas A&M. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were the graduate courses in, generally? + +Mr. BALLEN. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum +engineering. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? + +Mr. BALLEN. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy. + +My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De +Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife +had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from +Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems, +that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a +job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for +him. + +I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately +2 hours with him. + +He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to +go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with +him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to +the YMCA where he was residing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision? + +Mr. BALLEN. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or +the very early part of 1963. + +I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down +the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and +that was also true of Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you; +do you know? + +Mr. BALLEN. He indicated to me that he was not employed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that +correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. He told me that his--I knew he had a +wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some +friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where his wife was staying? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De +Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BALLEN. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just +coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very +vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the +Oak Cliff region. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous +employment? + +Mr. BALLEN. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him +and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop +some employment for him. + +He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in +the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction, +but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his +lack of any usable training. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told +you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia? + +Mr. BALLEN. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may +have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper +in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use +commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a +result of his interview with you? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started +out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having +a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out +feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had +been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore +on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a +rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded +individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him +down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting, +trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical +Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction +equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area +of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the +conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too +much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the +team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I +think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what +I could do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this +to try to help him find a job? + +Mr. BALLEN. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached +my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general +manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be +generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any +memory of my calling him in that regard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The other individual being the man in charge of +operations at Log Services? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this +conclusion that you have just expressed? + +Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to +your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that +you and Oswald had that day? + +Mr. BALLEN. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from +De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and +come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine +Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector. + +I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this +Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for +himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors +had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He +gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion +of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was +hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there. + +I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make +this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a +negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still +had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be +fairly realistic. + +Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of +detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own +institutions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along +that line? + +Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but +there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general +observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me +that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R., +and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached +student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be +snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press +or official spokesmen. + +He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses +type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me +the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible +industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he +could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept +saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he +said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you +worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it +became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think +will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular +hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government? + +Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective +reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him, +I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the +course of your discussion? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited +as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would +have--this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I +would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards +President Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You drew that inference simply as a general impression +based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically +that led you to that conclusion? + +Mr. BALLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor +Connally mentioned? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; it was not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular +institution of the United States? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our +religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he +referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the +United States. I cannot document that with any specific items which +were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this +had come out during that discussion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem? + +Mr. BALLEN. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the +meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had +a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that +this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of +compassion for mankind generally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies +which had as their end racial prejudice? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt +that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of +any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable +you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced +by racist or hate propaganda? + +Mr. BALLEN. You will have to make your question more specific. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who +would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated +with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind +of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the +position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union +and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of +plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute +their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the +situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward +hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them? + +Mr. BALLEN. I think I understand your question, and there would have +been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular +organization. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain +difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not +ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in +this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as +heck to gain employment. + +I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of +training you have, if you get employment." + +And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training +other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work +he did in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am +sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I +have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have +worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about +camera and reproduction equipment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? + +Mr. BALLEN. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as +to what his income was? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income +while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this--his job? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a +little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? + +Mr. BALLEN. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of +sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the +United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out; +and I got out." + +I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious +effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she +was reporting to us that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts +were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty +miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at +each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to +bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people +and mingle and otherwise. + +George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our +house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing +that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something +in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife +didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation +to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of +them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had +of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He +was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And +my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise +would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently +moved into Dallas from afar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember with any great specificity the things +that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such +an independent fellow? + +Mr. BALLEN. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have, +a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the +shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within +the Soviet Union in any way? + +Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that he had done considerable +traveling there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you +get that information or impression? + +Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet +Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just +incredibly boring and dismal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring +or dismal in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came +down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to +impose on him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you question him--did you have questions in your own +mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling? + +Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who +could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very +little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he +did, engender a certain amount of sympathy. + +In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and +if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like +that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get +around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of +money to do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him +money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing +that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the +wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit; +"Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get +myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to +a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had +received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was +in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received +in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about +photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated +that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and +understanding of that type of machinery? + +Mr. BALLEN. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment +myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different +types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous +cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Marina? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital +when he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the +Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his +return to the United States? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this +thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and +now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into +all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because +he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to +renounce his citizenship? + +Mr. BALLEN. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would +have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a +job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was +employed and lived in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so +much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and +what I have read in the newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was +employed in the city of Minsk? + +Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. I would have thought that he would +have--my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of +Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while +in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't ask him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his +wife when he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as his return to the United States is concerned, +you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to +leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the +bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any +resentment? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made +life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human +being. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and +Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating +to possible resentment of the United States? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the +Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as +Russia? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians +who had delayed his return, is that correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. Well, it was a matter of working then through these +bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the +American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the +same? + +Mr. BALLEN. I would say about equal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning +politics? + +Mr. BALLEN. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to, +parenthetically. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational +background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and +that sort of thing? + +Mr. BALLEN. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate +conclusion I came to was that he left--that he lacked educational +training. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper +in New Orleans? + +Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction +facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans, +and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in +New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you +about his activities in New Orleans? + +Mr. BALLEN. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans, +and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban +committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this +was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with +any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or +any part of the political spectrum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist? + +Mr. BALLEN. He may have--I think I had the feeling that he, to the +extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and +was a critic of societies along Marxist lines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about +religion? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I +think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview +with him, made statements to reenforce that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about +Oswald before you actually met Oswald? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir. +Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had +been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either +for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred, +and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of +Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking +young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length +in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back +who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow +with no hatred. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no +hatred of anything? + +Mr. BALLEN. That is what--De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that +his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with +hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions +connected with it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind +when you met and talked to Oswald? + +Mr. BALLEN. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent; +yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that +he would have had a little disdain for both sides. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get the impression, however, that he was +emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two +sides? Would that be a fair statement? + +Mr. BALLEN. Definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not +be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda +that might be disseminated in the country? + +Mr. BALLEN. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and +would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United +States, including our Government. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced +by propaganda of this sort? + +Mr. BALLEN. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't +appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference, +to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress +me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way, +and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to +involve him in my firm, which means a team operation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person +or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence? + +Mr. BALLEN. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the +unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the +degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It +was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable? + +Mr. BALLEN. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen? + +Mr. BALLEN. Too much a hard head? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that? + +Mr. BALLEN. I--just his general conduct, his general responses, general +bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just +seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively, +a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally +ill, I didn't come away with that feeling. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at +self-improvement or self-education that you could give us? + +Mr. BALLEN. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership, +literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little +curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of +reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as +someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian +literature? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to +comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he +understood them to be Marxian leanings? + +Mr. BALLEN. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly +his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity +to go into that with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about +December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald? + +Mr. BALLEN. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and +Mitchell. + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were +familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings? + +Mr. BALLEN. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I +have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your answer was? + +Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were +unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of +the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia? + +Mr. BALLEN. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective +on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the +newspapers--all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the +best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my +memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not conscious of any difference in those two +answers? + +Mr. BALLEN. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the +same as my answer here today. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Assuming that was your answer that day? + +Mr. BALLEN. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my +best memory and best recollection at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relationship between +Oswald and De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BALLEN. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events +after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George +meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this +fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for +individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his +wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that +this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were +leaving for Haiti. + +George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a +week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes +more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house +at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the +Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at +the wall and fighting each other." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was +an attempt made on the life of General Walker? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BALLEN. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss +either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that +occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some +pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed +it with him in any great---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in +connection with the attempt on Walker's life? + +Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he did? + +Mr. BALLEN. I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald +owned a rifle? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact +that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind +in that conversation? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first +time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that? + +Mr. BALLEN. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday +morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of +about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people, +that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but +some other stray dog. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who this other stray dog was? + +Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his +way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently disappeared from the scene? + +Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De +Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been +arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. BALLEN. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize +that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3 +hours later that this was the chap I met. + +I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake, +that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and +she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the +gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if +you lined up 50 individuals, the one person who would stand out as +being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very +surprised when Oswald was arrested. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further conversations along that line +with your wife? + +Mr. BALLEN. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would +naturally discuss it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to +your wife when you first learned of the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren +Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as +reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there +remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to +seeing the published report. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it +not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had +any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to +commit an act of this sort, is that correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any contact between Oswald and Jack Ruby? + +Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BALLEN. Approximately 1955, maybe 1954. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since +this assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. Only through the mails. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have corresponded with him since the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write about the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that +mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his +environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very +guarded way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me in general what you wrote to him? + +Mr. BALLEN. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said +in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was--I wanted to know +that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he +understood what I was asking him. + +And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and +Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened, +because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed +mind out into the open air. + +And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me +for what she thought were kind sentiments. + +Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and +let him know I wondered how he was getting along. + +And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race +riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let +us hear from you." + +Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were +guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George +and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him? + +Mr. BALLEN. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the letters he wrote to you? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his +wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of +letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them +until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are +the only letters that I have ever saved. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned De Mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law? + +Mr. BALLEN. Well, his wife's daughter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. His wife's daughter? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What are their names? + +Mr. BALLEN. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De +Mohrenschildts call them Buggers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a +period of time? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long, approximately? + +Mr. BALLEN. About 2 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They originally resided in Anchorage, Alaska, is that +correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. Well, that is where they formerly resided; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have they permanently moved from Anchorage? + +Mr. BALLEN. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from +him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and +Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald? + +Mr. BALLEN. They say they had not, and in thinking through the +chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some +confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual +who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try +to help. + +They drove him to east Texas once and to a timber farm. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the other person whom you described a little +while back as another stray dog? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have +any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said +about the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly +stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and +that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently +had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to +be banding about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and +Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying +publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the +assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy? + +Mr. BALLEN. They told me that they stated that at a reception for +members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when that reception was? + +Mr. BALLEN. It would have been while Chris and Rags were in Haiti. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt +make this remark? + +Mr. BALLEN. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your +question directly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the +dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince? + +Mr. BALLEN. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through +my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my +house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come +through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and +they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did they show up at your house again for the second +time? + +Mr. BALLEN. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been +at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at +about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house +March 1, and left March 15, more or less. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the +conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks +allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house. + +Mr. BALLEN. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that +they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all +of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that +sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission. + +The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed +him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and +probably had a tail on him. + +He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty +serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he +then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see +him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and +so they came out to my house and interviewed him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks +that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made? + +Mr. BALLEN. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was +there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room +where they were. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the agent who came out? + +Mr. BALLEN. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from +California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. One of the two agents that interviewed you when? + +Mr. BALLEN. About March 6th or 7th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The interview that you have just referred to concerns +your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that +the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and +Raymond P. Yelchek? + +Mr. BALLEN. The gentleman who came out to my house was Mr. Wood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was Mr. Wood that interviewed Rags, is that correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags discuss with you the interview after the agent +had left? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with +De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark +that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President? + +Mr. BALLEN. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested +vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already +known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated +into quite a personality clash. + +I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very +critical on personal grounds of Rags. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why was De Mohrenschildt critical of Rags, do you +remember? + +Mr. BALLEN. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question +now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal +matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a +son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that +his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons +seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and +maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about. + +But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a +personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything--any bearing +here. If you want me to discuss it, I will. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a +purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me. + +Mr. BALLEN. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his +overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall +nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this +was one of the sources of some conflict. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They had political differences, in other words, also? + +Mr. BALLEN. In their overall perspective; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told us everything that you can remember +about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De +Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell +us everything about that that you can remember, either about your +conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation +with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De +Mohrenschildt's statements. + +Mr. BALLEN. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there +was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by, +well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the +French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a +foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also +at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free +republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result +of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else +who was at this party, that you can remember? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with +me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there. + +I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's +statement and was known to the American Embassy down there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Rags said about that? + +Mr. BALLEN. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that +George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American +Embassy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had +been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince? + +Mr. BALLEN. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that +he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr. +Wood--was that his name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood was the gentleman who interviewed Rags. + +Mr. BALLEN. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood +indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his +interview of you, is that correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and +Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and +Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they +were looking fine. + +But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told +him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And +he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the +gray flannel suit boys. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you any details of his conversation with +the FBI? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your +knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any +reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been +involved in the assassination in any way? + +Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this matter with anybody? + +Mr. BALLEN. Would you make your question a little more specific? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De +Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized +that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I +then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better +have a good answer to that one. + +And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian +colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met +him through George Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Mr. Bouhe about that? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I haven't seen George Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and +Oswald had met through Bouhe? + +Mr. BALLEN. It would have either been Declan Ford or Natasha Voshinin. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility +that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the +assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anybody else discuss that question? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is, +the first time I have heard that question raised is today. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified, +when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that +De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De +Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is +that correct? + +Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the +contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did +you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with +Oswald prior to the assassination? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the +feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their +leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt +corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti? + +Mr. BALLEN. I do not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other matter about which you might +have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think +should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with +this matter? + +Mr. BALLEN. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely +discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed +up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and +finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and +consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best, +but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I +would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as +anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was. + +George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were +both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were +befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good +personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth +in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning +the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy. + +Mr. BALLEN. Do I have any reason to believe that? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would +only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my +mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative +possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000 +other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some +unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either +of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that +the FBI was involved? + +Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De +Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have +uttered? + +Mr. BALLEN. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state, +that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there +any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That +there are no reasons, and this is a madness. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he +believed this? + +Mr. BALLEN. None were expressed to me; no, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you want to add? + +Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Ballen. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK + +The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in +the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and +Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. I am Albert Jenner. + +Mrs. Dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please? + +I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear +that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Be seated please. + +Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff +counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the +President of the United States to investigate the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the +President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United +States No. 137. + +Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for +the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your +deposition taken? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive +order and the resolution to which I have made reference? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine +American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution, +the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain +respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F. +Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons +involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information +that you have some possible information that might help us with respect +to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you +about that. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am ready. + +Mr. JENNER. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and +relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to +happen to you. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I'm not afraid. + +Mr. JENNER. Your name is Lydia Dymitruk? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly pronounce your name? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's all right. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is +[spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. You live at 3542-1/2 10th Street in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of +Dallas--because I understand that would offend you. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir [laughter]. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is a large Texas city about, what--25 or 30 miles +from here? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I like it very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the +Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that's a beautiful store. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It is--it is beautiful store and nice place to work--and +I like it. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. How long I'm in Fort Worth? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let me see--I think it was from August. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what year? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Last year. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And where have you resided prior to August 1962? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Why? + +Mr. JENNER. Where? You came to Fort Worth in August 1962, did you say? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah; yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. From where? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. From Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had been a resident of Dallas up to that time? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How long had you been a resident of Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, about 4 years--and 3, 4 months. + +Mr. JENNER. And from where had you come when you came to Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Belgium--Brussels. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Belgium? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am a citizen of Belgium. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a citizen---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Born in Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered +personal questions but I'm not merely curious--I'm seeking information. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your age? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thirty-seven. + +Mr. JENNER. Thirty-seven. + +Are you married? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been married? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In this country or in Belgium or in Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was married in Belgium. + +Mr. JENNER. Married in Belgium? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband come with you to this country? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. He came first to United States, and I came afterward. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you +were born, to Belgium. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the +war and brought to Germany--Dusseldorf. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this your parents and you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; just sister--an older sister and I and that's all. +We are separated from the family. + +Mr. JENNER. And the German Army took you to Dusseldorf? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies, +essentially? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. The Americans. + +Mr. JENNER. The Americans? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +And you and your sister went to Belgium, did you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; 1945. After the war. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, my arithmetic is very bad. How old were you then? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1945? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, 17. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were +captured by the Germans? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you live in Russia when you were captured by the +Germans? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Rostov. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-s-t-o-v? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or is that "o-w"? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; it's "v". + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any brothers? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Just yourself and your sister were the only children? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And a little sister--she was born after the war, in +1947. So, I haven't seen her. + +Mr. JENNER. Your parents are still in Russia as far as you know? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. They are; yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. Were either of your parents active politically in Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Active politically? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist +Party, for example? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your husband still in this country? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago--3-1/2 years +ago. I don't know where he is. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it for part of this time at least--was he an +American? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he was from White Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. White Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were married in Belgium, were you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And he preceded you to this country? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he settle here in the Dallas area? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he settled for awhile. And--uh--he never settled +down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a +better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. His occupation? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. He was a draftsman. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Is he now an American citizen? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. And you certainly are? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not yet. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, you're not yet? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What status are you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. What is your status? Have you applied? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I +would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't +write. So that's why I have to go to school first. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, to write English? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. To have examinations you have to learn writing +English. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. But you are doing that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; I study at home. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And the Constitution of the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; great document! + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of your marriage? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No children. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know a lady by the name of Anna Meller? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Sometimes pronounced "Miller"? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me your acquaintance with Anna Meller. How did it come +about? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. When I came to United States---- + +Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. What year was that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think it was 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to the United States and you came to +Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You joined your husband here? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with Anna Meller? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not through him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Through George Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of--what is +today? Yes, Monday. + +George Bouhe--he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great +interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a +little church, did he not? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, he helps everybody I know. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's a short, bald-headed man? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps +everybody--Germans, Belgians, everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. He's a generous man? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. He just like to help. That's all---- + +Mr. JENNER. He's bouncy and vigorous. All right. I interrupted you. Go +ahead. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay. + +Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with Anna Meller? + +Mrs DYMITRUK. Yes; I met her at George's house---- + +Mr. JENNER. You met her where? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. At George Bouhe's house. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I +go visit her at home. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. What church is that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It's the Russian church. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian Orthodox Church? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Russian Orthodox Church. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of it? Saint somebody or other? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One +is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times +I went to George Bouhe--but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's +his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just +likes everybody to go there--but I prefer to go to this one--Father +Dimitri's church. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party +somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband. + +Mr. JENNER. In their home? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1962, you were living in Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962; yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. You had an apartment of your own at that time? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was on McKinney Avenue. + +Mr. JENNER. McKinney? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. McKinney Avenue. Yes. Palm Gardens Apartments. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange +between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your +befriending or harboring another lady--taking somebody into your +home--your apartment? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation at any time between you and +Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home +temporarily? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just +one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation--I +remember it--that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody +in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her +husband. + +Mr. JENNER. Separated? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to +help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of her at that time? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard about her, yes; but I haven't met her. + +Mr. JENNER. From whom? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe. +Both of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Told you about---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and +she are looking for--uh--to help--for somebody can help her to find a +living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with +somebody, but I don't know with whom. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about +this lady? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; she told me--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she--what did they tell you about her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I visit her on Sunday once and--uh--she told me that +Marina was in her apartment for a week. + +Mr. JENNER. Had lived with Mrs. Meller a week? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her +husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her +baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. The husband would not take them to the hospital? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. The baby to the hospital or to see a doctor. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she asked me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Meller asked you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see +her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've +got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to +go. So--and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't +know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better +go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me +the address and she says, "If you can go--if you go to her and see +her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary--English +dictionary--hers and George Bouhe's--dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay." + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the +Oswalds, would you please bring with you---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. English-language and Russian-language dictionaries---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were English. + +Mr. JENNER. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would +then bring them---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. To her. + +Mr. JENNER. To Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Those books were at Marina's house. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and +other one, Anna Meller gave it to her. + +Mr. JENNER. And they were both English-language dictionaries? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; English-Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. English-Russian? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +So, she asked me to bring it back--those books. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, it was on Tuesday early in the morning---- + +Mr. JENNER. Tuesday? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Tuesday. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought you said Thursday? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; Tuesday is my day off. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house--I found her +house--and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was she at home? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first, +to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute--maybe 5 or 10 +minutes--and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was +so many apartments--some empty--and, you know, I just couldn't find +her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I +knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald +and she said, "Yes." + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you ever met Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The +first I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Okay. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. She said, "well, yes?" + +And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me +that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you +to bring that baby to the hospital." + +"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with +him. I don't know what to do." + +And I said, "Where is he?" + +"Well, he's working." + +I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I +said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?" + +She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I +don't know." + +I said, "Well, okay. Let's go to the hospital." + +Mr. JENNER. Were you speaking in Russian? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian +language--you speak Russian well? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak +Russian well? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So--and she said that the baby had 103---- + +Mr. JENNER. Fever? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Fever. And I said--it was some kind of cold +weather--"You had better put some warm clothes--and in the car it's +warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby." + +She said, "Well, all right." + +So, it was about 10 o'clock or 10:30---- + +Mr. JENNER. In the morning? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. In the morning. + +I went to the Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we'll just hesitate a minute. + +Did you enter the apartment? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around +the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or +did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You +know. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh--I think she was all right. And house was clean. And +it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment +when I came to United States--so---- + +Mr. JENNER. So, she was neat, the apartment was neat and clean---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was neat and clean? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression +of her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what sex was this baby--girl or boy? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was a girl. + +Mr. JENNER. A little girl. About how old? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. (Gesturing with hands.) Baby couldn't walk. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting +at. She was carrying the baby in her arms? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about +her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they +getting along well--or what was your impression in that respect? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I haven't seen him at all--so, I couldn't say +anything---- + +Mr. JENNER. I know, but from what she said, Mrs. Dymitruk? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, that's what she said about her husband--that he's +against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to +pay the bills. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't +have to pay anything or maybe something--I don't know. + +So, I took her to the hospital with her baby. + +Mr. JENNER. You went to the Parkland Hospital here in Dallas? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you drove Marina and her child? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Okay. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked +the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature +to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have +a children's doctor here." + +Mr. JENNER. Do not have a children's doctor? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver +babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's +doctor. + +Mr. JENNER. Yeah. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't +know what to do with the baby now." + +"Well, if you can come in the evening." + +Mr. JENNER. The doctor or the attendant said---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That was the nurse. + +And she said, "Well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the +children." + +I said, "Is it possible to find somebody else right now?" + +Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know--I don't have my own +children but really I was scared to see baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to +another children's hospital in Dallas." + +And that's what I did. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Marina and the baby then drove to---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where that was? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little +hospital--children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to +pay anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Just for children. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children +there waiting. + +Mr. JENNER. 40? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. There were so many children. + +And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is +possible right away. + +Mr. JENNER. Because the baby has a fever? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and she said, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help it." + +Mr. JENNER. Cannot? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. "I cannot--because they have so many children here and +you have to wait your turn." + +I said, "Maybe those children----"--I see around there--playing +around--so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't +you take baby right away?" + +"Oh, no; you have to wait 3 or 4 hours"--or something like that. + +I said, "Well, I'm sorry. We have to go home." + +So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her, +"Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If +you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening." + +She said, "Yes." + +So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock--maybe 5 o'clock or +something--I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her +husband wasn't home. + +Mr. JENNER. Was not? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you +to the hospital. Do you want to go?" + +She said, "Yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back." + +I said, "Okay." + +So he came home and first he was eating---- + +Mr. JENNER. Were you introduced to him? + +Mr. DYMITRUK. Yes. She said, "That's my husband." And he spoke Russian +to me. + +Mr. JENNER. He did speak Russian? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and I was really surprised--in short time, he spoke +nicely. + +Mr. JENNER. He spoke pretty good Russian? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +So--and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. +And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay." + +So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and +they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a real argument? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was. Yes. I could hear from the kitchen that they +argued. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a heated argument? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were just--uh--I don't know what it was all +about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to +the hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't +want to go, she did? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to go but he---- + +Mr. JENNER. He did not want to go? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the +hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right." + +So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were +children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He--the +doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray--a lung X-ray and, I don't +know, all kind of tests, right away. + +So, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, I think it was two +copies or three copies of papers---- + +Mr. JENNER. From the hospital? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. From the doctor to go to the service desk. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, at the service desk--he was standing here +[indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the +baby. So--and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's +working, and he said "No." + +Mr. JENNER. Not working? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment--do you get +some unemployment money?" + +He said, "No." + +And she said, "Well, how do you live then?" + +He said, "Well, friends helping me." + +And Marina--she was behind me--and she says, "What a liar!" + +And they argue again. + +Mr. JENNER. They argued--between the two of them? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, in Russian language. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just +told us? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's what she told. That's what she told. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he hear her say that--is what I'm---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes--because then they were in argument. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, they got in an argument? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the argument about? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, about the--that he is not working--because he was +lying. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say why he lied? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. He didn't say anything. + +So, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I +think so--but he put it in his pocket. + +Mr. JENNER. He put the paper in his pocket? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. In his pocket. + +And so we came out and I brought them home--and I didn't come into the +house. + +Mr. JENNER. They just got out of the car and went in? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. They didn't say anything--thank you or +what--anything. + +Mr. JENNER. To you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. They just got out? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay +any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is +free. It's suppose to be free here, too." + +I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted. + +Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With him? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him [laughing]---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of +his argument was that these things were free in Russia---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And they should be free in the United States? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he +shouldn't be paying? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; that's what he figures. + +Mr. JENNER. When, if ever, did you next see either Marina or Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime--I think was +in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked +in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store--located +in Wyatt's Store there. + +Mr. JENNER. That's a supermarket? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. And I managed the bakery. + +So, I saw her shopping---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I assume you speak French, too, do you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very little. + +Mr. JENNER. Very little? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. Flemish and German. + +Mr. JENNER. Flemish and German and Russian--and English? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And English. + +Mr. JENNER. You do very well with English. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her +dressed maternity. + +Mr. JENNER. So she had the same child she had the year before? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was pregnant with another child? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was dressed like she was. + +And I just saw her from far--and I said, "Marina?" + +"Oh!" she says, "How are you?" + +I said, "Okay." + +Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize you? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. And she said, "Do you see anything on me?" + +I said, "Well, I don't know." + +She said, "Well, I expect another baby." + +I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your +husband doing?" + +"Oh, he's in New Orleans. And I'm going to New Orleans, too." + +And there was another lady with her. + +Mr. JENNER. There was another lady? Would you describe the other lady, +please? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was tall, black hair. She spoke Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her command of Russian? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very--not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I +thought she was English first--her type of face. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American--and I went to the +university and studied Russian--and I practice now with Marina." + +I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need +another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the +Russian language. + +And I thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]--I don't know. + +And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say +that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive +Marina to New Orleans? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. What time of the year was this? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Years and dates, I'm just lost. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, was it in the spring? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, no, no. It was in summertime. + +Mr. JENNER. It was in the summertime? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I +think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the last time I saw her. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you saw Marina? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the last time you had even any indirect +contact--people speaking of her--that is, prior to November 22--did you +hear about her in between? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Not at all? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were assisting them with their child and went to +their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think it was in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. JENNER. In Oak Cliff? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think was in Oak Cliff. + +Mr. JENNER. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald +and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there +any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of +his views with respect to Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just only about the hospitalization. + +Mr. JENNER. Only the hospitalization? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with +Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether +he had been in Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew that before--well, I'll ask you this: How did you +know he had been to Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew from George Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. From George Bouhe? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he told me about it--uh--one person who went to +Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby--back to +United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing--that he learned +something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back. +He was just lucky that he did come back to United States." + +Mr. JENNER. He was fortunate that he could come back? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were +taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her +a good many hours? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh--let me see. It was maybe till 2 o'clock--2:30 maybe. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting +Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their +lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls +have some smalltalk? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just about life in United States; not in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Not in Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +She told me that her husband want to go back to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. "And I don't want to go," she say. + +Mr. JENNER. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your +recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including +himself and her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he +was going to stay here? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he wanted to go with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't +go--because I like here and I don't go." + +Mr. JENNER. I see. But she did make a point of telling you about that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this +day when you were with them for a good many hours? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--with her. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says, +"United States, I do--but not everything" + +I said, "What you mean--not everything?" + +"Well, just the same problem--the hospitalization and the doctors." + +I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a +company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then +if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's how I explain to her. + +"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia--my baby was born in +Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there +was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby--and why is +it not in United States like this?" + +I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries--Russia and +United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will +understand." + +Mr. JENNER. And did you explain to her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I explained about this hospitalization what we have here. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have +to go doctor, you pay the visit." + +I said, "You can go to the hospital--to the Parkland Hospital and it +cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything." + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to +doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why, +that's nothing." + +"Well, I can't afford it." + +I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital--to Parkland +Hospital--to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything." + +That was the only--what she complained about. + +Mr. JENNER. But otherwise she thought well of the United States? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. She liked it. + +Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to stay; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, she did not want to go back to Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But she told you that her husband did want to return to +Russia? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember specifically now? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I remember. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to +go back with her? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want +to go, he can go by himself. I stay here." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time +you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United +States? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very +disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in +Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the +street. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. And that's why he was always so upset. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. + +Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would +like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you +think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important +investigation? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who +goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them +back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave +United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have +experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood, +I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason +that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life--I mean +the Communists. I can't see that. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a personal aversion to communism? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia +with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And not encourage him to return to the United States? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not encourage--or if he ask to come back, just let him +stay there. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. All right. + +Anything else? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let's see--Uh--one thing that I'm just always wonder +about Marina and her husband--that she knew--if she knew that her +husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in +that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her +husband tried to do this. + +Mr. JENNER. It's your viewpoint about---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. JENNER. That she should have disclosed that? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. Husband or no husband, I would feel that I +should. + +Mr. JENNER. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a +husband, or whomever it might have been---- + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have +been disclosed to the police or the Government? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, you ask questions. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. I can't think of anything at the moment. + +Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter +hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the +course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in +questioning you that you think is pertinent here? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Everything that's pertinent I have questioned you about? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine +young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you +desire, or not--as you see fit. And some people like to read it over +and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's +optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do +this if you want. You also may waive it. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. + +Mr. JENNER. You would prefer to waive it? + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. What I say is truth. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, all right. + +Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's +certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful. + +Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR + +The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please? + +In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently--I guess it was +last week--a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the +Presidential Assassination Commission---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your +deposition? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's true. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there included with that letter a copy of the +Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November +29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and +directs that it prescribe its procedures---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No. +137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the +creation of the Commission? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was. + +Mr. JENNER. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint +resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating +all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the +assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances +surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it. + +We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and +from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds +and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and +that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might +be helpful. + +I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will +notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions +here in Dallas and conduct the examination. + +And you appear here voluntarily? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your full name is Gary--[spelling] G-a-r-y E. Taylor? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What's your middle name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Edward. + +Mr. JENNER. And you live in Fort Worth--is that correct, sir? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I live in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Dallas? And your address in Dallas? + +Mr. TAYLOR. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a married man? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Family? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How many children? + +Mr. TAYLOR. One. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is your age? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Twenty-three. + +Mr. JENNER. You are an American citizen? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Born here? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your wife is an American citizen? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Born here? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your children born here? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area of the country? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since +1951. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring +you to Dallas? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I moved here with my parents. + +Mr. JENNER. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your +business or occupation or profession? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is the Sellers Co? + +Mr. TAYLOR. A recording company whose primary function is the recording +of radio and television commercials. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been in that business? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I went to work for them in September. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961. + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I +was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip +and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time +jobs and attended college at Arlington State. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a graduate of Arlington State? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student. + +Mr. JENNER. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3 +years at Arlington State? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you attending there at night--is that a night school? + +Mr. TAYLOR. They hold night classes. I'm not attending. + +Mr. JENNER. During the time you had your interest, which you still may +have, in--what did you say--photographing? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around +television commercials. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you an amateur camera fan? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either +Marina or Lee Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which of the two did you meet first? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same +day in their home. + +Mr. JENNER. On the same occasion? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information about them prior to the time +you met them? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or +was it a purposeful meeting? + +Mr. JENNER. It was prearranged. + +Mr. JENNER. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a +moment, if we can defer that for a bit. + +Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to +your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds +and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now +indicated? + +Mr. TAYLOR. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, how did it come about--from the beginning +of the world to the present? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--about a week before I met them, uh--my wife was told of +them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or +Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the +present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name--given name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic]. + +Mr. JENNER. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes--uh--it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it--Zhon. +I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm +not familiar with it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it. + +Mr. JENNER. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife--what was her +maiden name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne---- + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e? + +Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e. + +Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was the daughter of whom? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as +Mrs. J. M. Brandel. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name. + +Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l. + +Mr. JENNER. And the present Mrs. Brandel--she was the wife of George De +Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. No. I appreciate that. Where does she live now? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you spell that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a B. + +Mr. JENNER. Just the letter B? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in +Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy. + +Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she has remarried--and her name is Brandel. + +Mr. JENNER. How many children were born of that marriage? + +Mr. TAYLOR. One. + +Mr. JENNER. Just your wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second +wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The first wife--to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs. +Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also +was married to at least one, if not two other women? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, I am aware of one other one. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I know very little about her, other than that her name is +Dee--her first name is Dee. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] D-e-e? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee? + +Mr. TAYLOR. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of +which is deceased. + +Mr. JENNER. And the one who still survives is male or female? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Female. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know her name and whereabouts? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Her given name is Nodjia--and I do not know the spelling of +it. It is, I believe, a Russian name. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it phonetically? + +Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic). + +Mr. JENNER. Is she married? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. She's a minor. + +Mr. JENNER. She's still a minor? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe in Philadelphia--but I can't be sure of that. + +Mr. JENNER. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her +mother in Philadelphia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince, +Haiti? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt +and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in +Port-au-Prince, Haiti? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +(Off the record discussion follows.) + +Mr. JENNER. In order that the record be not too confused, I think +it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your +meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back +when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper +perspective. + +Mr. TAYLOR. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, +Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the +De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De +Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. We will bring that out later. + +(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by +referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting +how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.) + +Your REPORTER. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was +told of them by either her father or stepmother--Mr. and Mrs. George De +Mohrenschildt." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there. + +Mr. TAYLOR. They explained to us that---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean whom? + +Mr. TAYLOR. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. Explained to my wife---- + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth +with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts +were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert +and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De +Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go on. + +Mr. TAYLOR. We---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an +American being back here with a Russian wife--or was this entirely new +to you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of +either one of them prior to this. + +Mr. JENNER. And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the +record, the wife you now speak of--that is, back in 1962--that is not +your present wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. But that wife--what was her maiden name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one +Sunday afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "them," you mean---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and +also---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over +there? + +Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address +and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law +and mother-in-law present? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the +number? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a house--not an apartment? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a +duplex. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or +rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare +or new furniture--or what did it look like inside? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember, +uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however, +clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two +persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was. + +Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De +Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother +was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was +there--John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her +name--first name. + +Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Elena. + +Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the +time that you stepped into this room? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your +first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance +with Lee and Marina Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what +anybody said? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that +afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what +preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald---- + +Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a +question in your mind as distinct from something that was said---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish +a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left +shortly after I arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that +one afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this +particular occasion you are now relating? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media +activities subsequent to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in +those few minutes? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman +who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there +that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in +anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion +from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and +Marguerite? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them; +that they had very little communication between them; that they +were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other. +Particularly on Lee's part, I should think. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962--did you say? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented. +Go ahead. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things +that--uh--some of Lee's observations about Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or +I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke +Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John +Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts, +and George Bouhe does. + +Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts--your +mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian? + +Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough +to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was +spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words. + +Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others +who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any +attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and +pick up? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly +and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated +that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and +observations about Russia. Would you continue from that point, +indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's +experiences in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked +of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can +remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather +than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that +day. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll +probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. +But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to +make. + +Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed +the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his +general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his +observations of family life there. + +He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he +remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this +approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there +were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family +units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and +where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and +Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal +fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration +for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that +everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not. + +He went into some detail about what is received directly from the +State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen +receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine. +A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the +house--apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to +pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what +other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month +for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in +that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student +that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a +student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to +a level of which they are capable and then put to work. + +And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit +further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that +salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as +you continue through the years on a skilled job. + +Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job. + +Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for +example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles +a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, +he gets a raise over and above that. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of +time and has no relation to skill? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he +gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for +example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald, +is the compensation the same? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that +someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--I don't +remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200 +rubles a month for performing the same task. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the +ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a +month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American +money? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me +that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free +services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out +of his 45 rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food +and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare +minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual. + +Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his +impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed +little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these +things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of +these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in +some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of +stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the +families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this. + +Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective +in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room +apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average +Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or +speculating from things you have read in works published with respect +to life in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia +that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would +probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That +living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories +so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what +was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the +end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month +earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made +about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did +mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and +that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina +worked as well as he? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married +or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that +wives worked? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He +didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember +much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, I +should say, they are encouraged to work. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on +his reaction toward this life in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that +he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that +they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, +to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or +say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this +privilege as we enjoy it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities +on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded +him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or +foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work +comparable to his? This is, was he treated or accorded benefits +different from or in addition to those which would normally have been +accorded him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians +put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was +less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know. + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt +like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming +sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to +do. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with +him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself +that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at +least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected, +as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he +were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and +that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of +course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him. + +Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what +he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an +impression on your part? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it a distinct impression or---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have +asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more +money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that +he---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached +the subject. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to +what he told you of his life in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his +part--that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for +example, going hunting? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever +discussed by him with you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up +to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed. + +Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him +discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States +and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties +and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to +this--return to this country with his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort +prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had +married Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject +discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and +himself? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your +presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you +with respect to the subject of his life in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your +presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in +Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your +presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any +desire on her part to come to the United States? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings +about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that +they were important to him. + +Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not +with you directly? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss +directly with you, their route back to the United States? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about +that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the +money to return. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your +presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished +now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area +of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political +philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or +government? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the +things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two +political governments--such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains +free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian +citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps +some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat +better than the average citizen lived. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed +in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian +Government? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your +presence, his political philosophy? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I +knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem +particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country +or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and +perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but, +as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday +afternoon? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job--which I +believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his +employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from +it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion +about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now +whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to +stay in my home. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we +invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said---- + +Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday +evening forward. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live +until he was able to find a job here in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your +invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina +and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee +became established elsewhere? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then +atmosphere? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any +marital disharmony. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of +that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the +relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and +wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language +barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did +not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the +others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the +other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had +some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about +Russia and how people live there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that +meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in +their lives? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to +remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I +tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June, +returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed---- + +Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it. +And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall, +some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones +other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And +then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did +take residence at the Y.M.C.A.? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your +home, commencing that Sunday night? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of +course? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where? + +Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount. + +Mr. JENNER. In what town? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian, +your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty +with the language? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between +Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during +this week? + +Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period +was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were +able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate +sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company +to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of +the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their +being able to play with the children and the children play with each +other. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say +2 weeks? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks. + +Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and +probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week +period? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday +meeting? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the +telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the +Y.M.C.A. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him +up. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front +of the building? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going +into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down. + +Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used +the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him +and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going +in and his coming down to meet me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would +continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment +late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your +home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there +had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that +call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that +call? + +Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife. + +(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now where were we? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about +people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that +there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And +George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he +could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at +some point during this period---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and +picked Marina up. + +Mr. JENNER. At your home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. At my home--and took her, I believe, to a dentist. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of +them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly +because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from +her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the +whole period Marina was gone--which, as I remember it, was the better +part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not +sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a +charity--went to a charity dental clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to +the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law? + +Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just +mother-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No--not to my recollection. I didn't take--uh--Marina +anyplace that I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of +Dentistry? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out +at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your +home--first, the month? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none +of it in the month of October 1962? + +Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I +personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was +first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are +talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that +Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going +from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was +a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came--she came to my home for a +period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from +your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have +dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could +talk to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either +for yourself or for Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call +to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable +that I would have. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do +so? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble +finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the +Y.M.C.A.? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I +made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated +at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks +about which we have not talked that arrested your attention? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into +Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing +that arrested my attention. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that. + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine +qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her +child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her +dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all +that she could about her new environment. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home--you +mean----? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her +desire to learn English. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead. + +Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions, +this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning +English--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and +say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did +appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared +for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later +took them away from her. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series +of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and +becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your +present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? +Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in +terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English +language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the English language +lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her? + +Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one +occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by +saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And +then, of course, he did take the lessons from her. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I +had knowledge of her being beaten by him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that. + +Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt---- + +Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first +apartment they had, on Elsbeth. + +Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and +that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she +and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from +her, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her. + +Mr. JENNER. She said that to you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina +that said that. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of +their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina +left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November---- + +Mr. JENNER. Left the home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember +who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was +told that she had left him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with +respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering +this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that--again, +it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to +my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present +at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication +between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I +couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But, +certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and +woman married would want some time alone together. They could have--we +had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could +have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never +happened. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing +intimate or personal between them at these meetings. + +Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, +conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were +evidences of love and affection? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during +the 2-week period? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and +asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had +been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their +meetings, would call him and he would then come. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We +were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and I remember at +least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and +rode the bus back to town. + +Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or +at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the +streets? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or +three occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. With him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of +them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, +and I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to +teach a beginner how to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he +was unable to operate an automobile? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to +attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in +Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the +various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions +they did try to get me to do it, and I refused. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to +you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on +your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You never received anything? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from +anybody." + +Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the +expenditures that I made on their behalf. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was +there something that occurred in particular that brought about the +termination of that 2-week guest period? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile +accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. +Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least +semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself +food and so on. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by +associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which +one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or +reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your +memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile +accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any +respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas +and at that time they were, as you understood, separated? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which. + +Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help +care for Mrs. Hall? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in +November--somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct? + +Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of +September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this +is all quite vague--I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got +him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up +Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had, +through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' +house paraphernalia, clothing and other things---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to +be more specific as to how this came about? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I +got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably +aware of. But I don't remember. + +And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of +January 1964. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those +agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the +YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where +Marina was living? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to +say this about it. + +That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret +Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and +between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to +remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my +memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, +it occurred to me that at one time--once--I went to--uh--and looked +for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and +tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't +remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh---- + +Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I +just remember some vague directions that---- + +Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962? + +Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15, +because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point +during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and +looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the +occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that---- + +Mr. JENNER. From whom? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that +came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't +remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening +looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I +don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just +of Lee. + +I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a +building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this +area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information +to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he---- + +Mr. JENNER. What location was that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address--but it seems to +me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the +Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z--I--E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I think +they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off +on; but the name I do remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building. + +Mr. JENNER. Brick? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds +occupy prior thereto? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than +the Elsbeth Street home, for example? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to +ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely +sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly +or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. +Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a +Sunday afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large +one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers +of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to +this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they +were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household +furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, +and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place +located from which you rented the trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently +again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And +we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service +station where I had rented a small covered trailer and---- + +Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered. + +Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with +Mr. Yelchek. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a +mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your +recollection? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not +University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. +This service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a +mile north of Texas Christian University. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon +investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one +evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place. + +Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied +you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first +talked to the FBI? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. +There is no question about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively +identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since +then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at +this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one +for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it +was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too +involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is? + +Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking. + +(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. +Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. 1606670. + +(Hands license back to witness.) + +Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's +license number on that occasion? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal +procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle +license. + +Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? +Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year. + +Mr. JENNER. They change the number? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit +letters "E" and "Y"? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number. + +Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for +Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part. + +Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are +what--your prefixes? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all +of the "N" and "P". + +Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary." + +Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three +letters? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the +three that we have just been discussing. + +Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's +and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +You piled all this material in the covered trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The same day. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded +trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street +in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there? + +Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service +station where I had rented it in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you, +was it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who +paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say +specifically that Lee did it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the +trailer in the first instance? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether +upon its return, he paid for it or you did? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your +recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not +pay for it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household +furniture and whatnot into their apartment? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their +apartment that same afternoon or evening? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening +or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't---- + +Mr. JENNER. Back with you where? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer. + +I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to +Fort Worth--just approximately? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was +rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're +wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move--I am not, again, can't be specific +about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and +I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return +a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a +collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort +Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front +entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the +Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the +Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. +And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either +all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald +on his trip or life in Russia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? +It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing. + +(Witness peruses document page by page.) + +Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy +of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages +of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in +New Orleans, and what not? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking. + +Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. +That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't +happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which +is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined 8 by 11-1/2 sheets? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it +typed? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking +about---- + +Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed. + +Mr. JENNER. It was typed? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed--on white paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he +showed you. Now, would you please go on? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking +about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had +had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with +us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever +read it fully. I read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is +very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to +be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or +content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in +character, or do you have any impression about it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it +such a long time ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was he living? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth. + +Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I +assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably +the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were +unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost +immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half +blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned. + +And we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great +detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the +manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed +perhaps an hour or 2 hours. + +Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, +on this occasion? + +Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I +arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was +sitting at a table, I think, reading and---- + +Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper? + +Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books +from the library. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading? + +Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. +I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy +of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the +title or name of the book. + +Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he +had a copy of. + +Mr. JENNER. But they were political---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and +philosophy? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy. + +Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit +on this particular evening? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much +later---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant? + +Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if +that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by +this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked +someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was +the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where +they had moved. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about +a block away. And I went there. + +Mr. JENNER. What street was that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What town? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I +went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not. + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit. + +Marina was at home. She--her English had improved enough for her to get +across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I +don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending +night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas--which is our technical high +school and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small +balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I +thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's +toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and +I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the +afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in +Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early +evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it +was midafternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was +working at all. + +Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was +employed? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a +very, very vague recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, +as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at +all at Crozier Tech. + +I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words, +telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and +we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe. +And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I +would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 +minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was +in the night school? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school. + +Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or +that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening? + +Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I +don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the +time. She may have said he was at work or not at work. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she +said he was employed and working and had work at that time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but +it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to +visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last +time I saw Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that +time. I know that he wanted it very badly. + +Mr. JENNER. He called you for it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, +I think I got in the car and took it to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you +now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your +impressions of the Oswalds individually. + +(Off-the-record discussion followed.) + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was, +first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be +well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I +don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject. + +In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had +said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a +statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas +as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties +have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and +communism have. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was +very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of +the subject, why, Lee was through. + +He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but +when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very +good case for it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would +get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly +emotional subject on everyone's part. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would +think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick +a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I +never felt like that he would attack anything his equal. + +Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, I +wouldn't ever have expected this of him. + +Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size. + +Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not +have expected him to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there +was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had +any black and blue marks on her person? + +Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or +their policies? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at +that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor. + +I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take +exception to Government policies--definitely---- + +Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that +might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention +Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him +any money or give him any money? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their +behalf? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to +Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county. + +Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you +either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help +in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, +his personal habits in that respect? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn +several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his +last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and +Marina? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her +treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about +it. It just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I +are dressed now--in a business coat? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would +be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee +Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because +there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I +saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons +in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been +closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been +so active in seeing that they got along well. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De +Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. +It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to +Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee--such as where to +look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee +grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or +where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA. + +Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De +Mohrenschildts. + +(Looking through papers.) + +Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your +relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of +course, all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in +Russia and I believe he went to the---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a +long period of time? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family. +He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von +Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm +not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the +University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their +Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York +City. + +Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please. + +Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs. +Brandel--in New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born. + +Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather +quickly after she was born. + +And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my +knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part +of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently +well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, I believe, +he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in +the business community. + +And then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that +until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he then married? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt +but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, +Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she +felt like at the moment. And I met them through her. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which---- + +Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a +half-sister of my wife's. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved. + +Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead. + +Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we +dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started +attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more +until--uh--May or June of 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a +Nancy Tilton? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is she? + +Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date +and she said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she +termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her +to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went +out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I +started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during +this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in +fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole +family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you +like the otherwise? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, +as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my +former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed +away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and +Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and +sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody. + +When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. +Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go +into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter +went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana? + +Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex. + +Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to +Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I +met her. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence +until I met her that evening, as previously described. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In China. + +Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's +all my former wife knew of her. + +She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, +was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through +her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with +her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is +B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling]. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have +[referring to paper]. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was +just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China. + +All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. +And, as far as Mr. Bogo--as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was +in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems +and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he +was resident of a State mental hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. + +And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar +[spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to +me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice +president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft. + +I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is +a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character +to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he +seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he +must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht +that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a +period of 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What's his name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original +name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league +university--Cambridge, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? +What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell? + +Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the +telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him +briefly on the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, +describe him. What kind of personality is he? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat +boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme +friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, +handsome, or otherwise? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a +very powerfully built man, like a boxer. + +Mr. JENNER. Athletic? + +Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes +him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is +a member of the staff. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would +contact me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of +George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go +home. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And +he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to +get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing +this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. +The furnishings in their home somewhat show this. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things +like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52--is a +little unusual. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street? + +Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel. + +He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to +his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position +for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he +could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this +could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only. + +Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned +convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with +the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the +respects you have indicated in regards to him? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar. + +Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does +she? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's--uh--I have heard them say +everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed +democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia +and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again, +so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their +designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it. + +Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see--on November 21, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Your present wife? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter +that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the +De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the +assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all +from them. My parents have received correspondence from them--none of +which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was +mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De +Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your +acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the +record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add +that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence +having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the +Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and +I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or +plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably +the De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all, +to--uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have +traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to +Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, +Tex., to the tip of South America---- + +Mr. JENNER. Panama? + +Mr. TAYLOR. And---- + +Mr. JENNER. On beyond that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of +South America. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further +information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the +portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to +invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area +while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these +observations---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that +invasion preparation? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the +invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they +were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in +the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to +anyone--and when these acquaintances returned---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their +daughter? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from +them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after +they returned? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them +being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, +Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. +This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the +people---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home---- + +Mr. JENNER. Where is that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends +of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in +their home---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully +evicted them from it. + +Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De +Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a +friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people +who owned the house? + +Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who +owned it returned. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had +advance permission to occupy that home? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had +occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who +evicted them could determine from what was eaten and---- + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, they were trespassing? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. + +(Off the record discussion follows.) + +Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De +Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement +by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are +stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down +through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of +the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And +it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De +Mohrenschildts' daughter? + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. +What was that? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an +indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or +information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They +had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they +had traveled extensively through Communist countries. + +Mr. JENNER. What countries? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and +Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had +met Marshal Tito. + +Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period +that you were married to their daughter? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. +However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the +family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live--if +you know? + +Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she married? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name? + +Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson. + +Mr. JENNER. What business is he in? + +Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside--if you know? + +Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since +they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said +that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other +than that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have +already said that you would like to add to the record that you think +might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further +investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is +there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the +record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is +pertinent, that I have failed to bring out? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record +statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said +on the record? + +Mr. TAYLOR. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition +if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate +with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and +read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make +any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire +and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the +right to waive that if you see fit. + +Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long +deposition--about Wednesday of next week. + +Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much +longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for +coming here despite the inconvenience. + +Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV + +The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, +Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you +are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing +voluntarily at our request? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if +you wish counsel? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your +transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters +charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you +wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to +waive the signing of your deposition. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would +like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of +a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If +you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right. + +Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning +probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would +that be convenient for you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, +then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your +testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know +if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me. + +Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go +ahead and spell it for us now. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not +"en" as you have it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name. + +Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic +spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and +the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway +Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you +because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work +with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that +connection? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the +Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to +the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full +address. What is your business, profession, or occupation? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as +seismologist. + +Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of +1955, when I took my present job. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or +with whom were you associated, prior thereto? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co. + +Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. In what capacity? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, +you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your +profession or your particular calling? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced +person and I didn't speak English enough. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster +than I thought. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my +life--approximately at that time? + +Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native +of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my +parents came to Latvia. + +Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received +my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, +we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to +South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, +P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, +excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp. + +Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g +[spelling], Germany. + +Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you marry? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938. + +Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling]. + +Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and +we haven't heard of him since that time. + +Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a +distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something +different from the Russians? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, +Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are +in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an +occupational force--I'll put it this way. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital +of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is +approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between +master's and Ph. D. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time +and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1955? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November +of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex. + +Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located +here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.; +Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, +N. Mex., and I left---- + +Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a +month. + +Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, +Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, +Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company +at that time and went to Roswell to join the family. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went +quite a way. + +Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological +computer for that particular company. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our +law didn't exist at that time, as well you know. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and +this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff +of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, +and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, +1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by +the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint +resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. +Mamantov. + +I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on +Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You +are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the +taking of your deposition. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had. + +Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, +and do you agree to waive it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal +terms. + +Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there. +No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from +Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I +quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. With Sun? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in +October, the 1st of October 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian +language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any +teaching of the language? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. +I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in +1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was +the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No--1962 and 1963. Now, +I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite +extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for +any law enforcement agencies? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have +translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage +certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with +divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here +in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the +first time for the police department. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called +upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or +of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or +translating? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of +Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22. + +Mr. JENNER. What year? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice. + +Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior +notice? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police +department? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's +Lieutenant--they call him Chief. + +Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of +minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, +C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right +now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two. + +Mr. JENNER. And who is he? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not +mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. +And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and +then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum. + +Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with +this tragedy? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did +you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before +the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I +heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I +felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly +well his background here in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say---- + +Mr. JENNER. 4:30? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30. + +Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. +Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car. + +Mr. JENNER. To pick you up? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was +sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird. + +Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane. + +Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City +Police Station? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz. + +Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the +detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the +hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people. + +Mr. JENNER. You just went through that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that +I saw. + +Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine, +whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous +telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, +your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943--we never +were separated. + +Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a +young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that +moment? Knowingly? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally. + +Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no +contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone +conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. +Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I +never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into +another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought +in and she also had a baby. + +Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, +there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for +whom I interpreted. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him. + +Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who +was taking notes and sitting across at the desk. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this +young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started +with "H". + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he +will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together. + +Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of +recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and +relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at +least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the +responses--the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this +because--I mean--this was pure translation. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't +you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try +to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's +residence in Irving---- + +Mr. JENNER. To which she responded? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is +what I was getting at? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there. + +Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but +I'll have to, I'm sure, at times. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember +approximately what she was asked. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine +around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's +home. She answered positively then. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--I'm sure that positively is affirmative? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what +time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police +station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 +o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in +Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November. + +Mr. JENNER. The previous evening? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he +had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into +kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually +she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said +usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was +tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, +so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to +eat breakfast. Now---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything +about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to +make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I +don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he +didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this--I don't want any +of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall +definitely. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we +would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the +subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned +from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or +are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no +recollection, I would prefer you say so. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations +somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember +also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; +apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, +which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was +after he left, we'll say, a few minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your +answers--do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she +stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning. + +Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that +morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little +bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen +she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. +From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him +and she ate. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that +she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then +rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you +recall that she said that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem--either I recall or I +recall future instances from translating her life history. + +Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to +exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate--and to +exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your +mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your +powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your +rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do +you understand? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't +return backward--I mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the +time he was leaving. After a while she got up. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning +it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the +translating you---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left +the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to +the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for +the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought +he didn't eat. + +Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember +how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check +her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, +and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit +different position than she remember it before. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the +blanket? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was +asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention +particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. +Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it +looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but +she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this +moment the gun was brought in. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to +the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she +had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I +assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went +to the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that +time? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after +Marina finished. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, +and did she respond on that subject? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that +question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection +with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the +day. Do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning, +or she voluntarily stated---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the +kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for +the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and +think about it. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she +went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when +police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very +important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the +exact time. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you +first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the +kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went +during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do +not know. + +Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before +noontime? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state. + +Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the +police arrived, which was in midafternoon? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked +about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a +very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen +before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the +questioning. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the +blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and +configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?" + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. +After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it +was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he +get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would +bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if +she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at +this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit? + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or +not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in +the garage prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit +evasive answer. + +Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your +opinion as to whether it was evasive. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it +were there. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not know---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however, +she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that +Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and +you translated it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the +blanket in the garage? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the +blanket in the garage prior to November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she +had discovered it prior to November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark +brown--black, she said. + +Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought +in the room? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was +actually brought into the room, and state what she said. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the +gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, +she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked +her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it +was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," +and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, +and at that time the gun was brought in. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go +back. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or +discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of +November 22, to examine the blanket? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon +or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and +this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it. + +Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, +what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position +as she has seen in the past. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in +the garage? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't +anything in it. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This +I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had +seen before, so much I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, +shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from +what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had +seen it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a +package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the +package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, +what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it +looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package +of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and +knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch +his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she +left it in same shape she had found it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of +the package? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back +so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the +package. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the +garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it +before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage +when she saw it on November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her +belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I +remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that +particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different +shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in +the garage in one of the corners. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the +gun. + +Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or +condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of +placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when +she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain +what she discovered was a rifle? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket +package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping +of that character? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package +brought into the room? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into +the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was +with her when she did that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure--I don't know what happened before that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day +at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of +Mrs. Paine and the police? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to +the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the +police were present? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that +is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of +the police? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the +garage on two occasions that day. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, +as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I +know. If you don't remember, you don't. + +Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you +don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your +mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for +you to testify one way or the other. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best +you can, your recollection of what took place. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude +by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she +testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the +garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior +to the time the police arrived. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to +testify one way or the other on that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the +fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package--she saw +an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the +size of the package she testified it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that +she had seen the gun in sections? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Today? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the +record.) + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, +and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and +she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there--so much--you +asked me. + +Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will +be certain of it and see if we can find it. + +(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred +to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following: + +("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the +line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up +she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was +poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, +and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a +few minutes.") + +Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the +garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, +what did she say? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the +point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or +she saw during the time when police arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own +prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way +it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have +testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the +package, if she said anything? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific +questions about particular blanket. + +Mr. JENNER. What questions? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation +to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape." + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat +whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, +had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for +example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was +aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of +the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was +the sequence, as you recall? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the +premises of Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is +that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at +the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she +said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this +particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't +think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular +morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun +was with her belongings. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not +brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to +her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was +not brought into the room? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, +was the gun itself, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what +I mean by a sling? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right +now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure--I wouldn't be sure of +the statement. + +Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated +when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it +was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was her response? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun +which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other +if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a +gun in the Soviet Union--I can say so much for sure and that's where I +didn't like this. + +Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no +person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your +part, not what she said. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not +to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she +went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet +Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Might have been? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question +was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she +said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns +even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was +this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she +was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled +the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are +dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you +some more questions. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself--all right. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied +that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that +he had the gun that she had in mind? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun? + +Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, +he always was interested in guns--this statement she made. + +Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a +rifle? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a +reply. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on +that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination +of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically +as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I +went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the +blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, +or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"--was she questioned that closely? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether +there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon +in the blanket package? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she +was not examined on that subject? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether +she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon +she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was +asked. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or +information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it +was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was +in Russia? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in +Russia and supposedly was hunting here. + +Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in +the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for +hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used +to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No. + +Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June +1962. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and +reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in +Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had +hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen +him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally +or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their +home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, +sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry +sighting is? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an +incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, +she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the +translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry +sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle--I'll put it this +way--about her seeing him with a weapon. + +Mr. JENNER. Any weapon? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall +about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle +was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned +about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said +on this occasion is relevant to us. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I +remember--I think I said everything I could remember. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything +that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of +each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when +the gun was brought into the room? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down. + +Mr. JENNER. Made notes? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination +he summarized his notes in her presence? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't +write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs. +Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I +probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman +to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or +"me"--that's the mistake it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the +presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance +correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to +Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you +thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian +and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark +about the grammar. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled. + +Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his +two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that +position (indicating). + +Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position. + +Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to +examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in +the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are +the same, are a dark brown or black." + +He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. +He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the +gun--I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then +they asked her about a sight on the gun. + +Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope--she said, "No; I never have seen gun +like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet +Union. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part +that she referred back to the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way. + +Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, +so you can go ahead. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, +she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing." + +Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever +it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have +a telescopic sight on it? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part +of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said +again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was +the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling +it---- + +Mr. JENNER. The stock? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked +about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black." + +Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her +for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his +possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she +couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the +past. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they +questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it +weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she +had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how +close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that +the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all +she thought, to fairly summarize? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color +you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They +particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun +which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the +gun and hasn't seen the whole gun. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and +asked her if she has seen him carrying something. + +Mr. JENNER. Carrying something? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see +him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left +that morning he was carrying anything? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And her response was? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, +or whatever he was taking--means of transportation. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he +had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to +Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if +anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday +night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they +go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point +to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that +previous evening? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the +extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and +what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having +the gun, and "this is the gun he used." + +Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no +questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous +evening? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather +than on Friday as usual? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they go into any questions with respect to the +acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or +in Fort Worth or in New Orleans? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place? +What was its duration? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. You +see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two +statements--from both of them. + +Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements +made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, +as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of +Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and +Mrs. Paine's responses? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether +Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2-1/2 or 3 hours +altogether for the typist to type that. + +Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the +statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and +then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then +sign them. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were +present? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to +Marina--yes, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, +were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have +testified? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal +conversation more or less about the child who was present. + +Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, +were they conversations related to personal matters--the children? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to +her protection--Marina's protection. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?" + +Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?" + +Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?" + +Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back +to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she +looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, +then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I +didn't want to go into conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you +are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be +deported in that event? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would +happen to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the +best of your recollection that was said? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them? + +Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that +3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but +without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything +asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether +they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any +problems in that connection? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you +teach Russian? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. +Paine's command of the Russian language? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person +and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for +knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or +translated for Marina? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this +questioning? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my +mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this some time afterward? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward. + +Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no--the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the +picture. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened +the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody +else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and +started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like +in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very +little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I +heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around +and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young +men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so +surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. +Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me +in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself +immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her +at the police station and my name is so and so. + +In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for +me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I +said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am +very tired." + +That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement +of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going +up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me +somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into +the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group +again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the +escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out +was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told +him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please +call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you +through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything +about this particular occasion. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also +present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a +gun. + +Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this, +please? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that +Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," +and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I +didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check +on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is +a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania? + +Mr. JENNER. Quaker. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that +you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me +to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's +part. + +Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the +previous evening; is that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this. + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember--this is overlapping two +occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the +statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the +name of George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his +physical characteristics first? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud +in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes. + +Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Very. + +Mr. JENNER. Expansive type? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I +met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, +twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce +was pending. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that +general area, who is now his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was her name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to +spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was +the way she was called in the Russian society. + +Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know +George. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it +this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born. + +Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in +Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet +again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, +all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him +and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very +small--actually was just a regular residence. + +Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you +participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would +be interested? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church. + +Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm +talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If +I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward +the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to +describe a man this way---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to +ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person +wouldn't do it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your +acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to +the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting +at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, +as you have described? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no, no; I haven't. + +Mr. JENNER. Or known of him? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this +was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was +in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long +because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid +this person as much as possible. + +Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of +George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I +thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De +Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my +mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the +De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that +Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that +remark was made to you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation +between my mother-in-law and Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present. + +Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your +presence? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. +Mother-in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears +store, except that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact +between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your +mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with +Marina? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take +your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I +don't want to take your time. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little +carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with +your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was +because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and +asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant +at that time--you see the connection? + +Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the +way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my +mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my +mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her +because she needs a translator. + +Mr. JENNER. You may bring her. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows +we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for +her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to +answer your questions. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as +far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite +nervous by being by herself and so on. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which +I have tried to do with you. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, +because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't +remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated +with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to +separate right now without going back and reading the report. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De +Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with +respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to +a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, +Mexico? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. +Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will +leave it to them. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to +us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet +representatives and Mikoyan---- + +Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, +actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this +mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but +this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend +beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to +organize the Eastern Orthodox Church? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but +I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active +participants in organizing the church. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this +group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about +which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We +came in 1955--this already was going for a couple of years. + +Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons +interested? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe---- + +Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for +the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.--oh, +gosh, what is her name--Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her +first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in +the telephone book later on. + +Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian +intellectuals? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level +than I do, except De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are +interested in what? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low---- + +Mr. JENNER. As yours? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called +miners, and the Voshinins are the same. + +Mr. JENNER. Who else? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's +called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, +Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them +were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's +case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e +[spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now, +an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s +[spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it +exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the +telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing. + +Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship +is between her and Mr. Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and +Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people +actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial +supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money +because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, +but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and +through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the +first time. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please +state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, +in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as +chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony +is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and +evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we +were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, +his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political +trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can +say of him. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you +called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the +Dallas office? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the +assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the +knowledge I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, +Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion +as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political +leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I +don't want to suggest the conversation to you. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what? + +Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what +his political leanings were in her opinion? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, +after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. +Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to +our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I +stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate. + +Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your +mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and +from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone +from this country to Russia? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because +after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow +acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different +sources of him and his political opinions. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because +there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in +each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that +they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand +her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them +comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your +heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me +your reaction to that. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was +approached by them or people who tried to help them. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help +them? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many +occasions they shouldn't do it. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested +person. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was +sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he +had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is +strengthened due to the 22d assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on +any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any +direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, +you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a +realization---- + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of +his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and +supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in +my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and +I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were +asked before. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and +that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that +respect? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, +I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local +Republican Party. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of +or has there come to your attention any information or statement +attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or +opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, +prior to November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his +capacity as President of the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he +was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning +the President or any other name. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can +rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or +early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I +heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be +a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to +my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405, +if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out +in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we +went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White +Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller. + +Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came +from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee +Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to +his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his +political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring, +avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to +violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, +are you acquainted with his reputation in the community? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help +Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I +mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into +political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, +was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, +did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one +reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way. + +Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, +in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think +well of his personality? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try +to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep +Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her +in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back. + +Mr. JENNER. He was holding back? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation +in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but +only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group +toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not +reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is +what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for +a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many +instances. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance. + +Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after +people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own +houses, he was undesirable to those people. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your +mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what +happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to +teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, +and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for +my mother-in-law to teach her Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian +community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several +subdivisions--first, as to her personality. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, +was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion +was that she is very pleasant to be around. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian +community for truth and veracity? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom? + +Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a +reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean. + +Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family +discussion. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, +but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union +so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him +living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean +distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable +apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her +on the first-hand information. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with +respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, +that is a political question. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second---- + +Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the +Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United +States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union? + +Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist +Party of the Soviet Union first. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic +Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard +of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist +Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody +considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did +Oswald himself. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the +Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political +views and might actively support those views here in the United States? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion. +I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political +discussions, I'll put it this way. + +Mr. JENNER. She did? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the +Fords? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was +married--he's divorced. + +Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be +married. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they +were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the +Oswalds? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable +impulse on his part? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We +objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying +to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her +husband beat her up. + +Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report +that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the +community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her, +after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. +Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in +Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting +money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this +more and more violently. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of +which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on +occasions? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for +a couple of weeks or a week. + +Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get +this person---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had +a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her +home. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't +think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or +for 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it? + +Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling]. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, +H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person. + +Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's +correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call +your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your +father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it +appears. + +Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's +name are the same? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, +it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce. + +Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist. + +Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his first name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling]. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil +Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the +class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen +was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class. + +Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a young man? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian +in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. +He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied +Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of +the Russian language already. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this +student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't +that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished +that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of +1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he +and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private +lessons for both of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not +before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and +Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both +of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described +as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he +didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and +I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, +and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and +willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring +Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt. + +Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to +you about the Oswalds one night? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit +with us. + +Mr. JENNER. Your home? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say, +sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday +or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party +where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his +wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was +present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were +present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was +present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the +conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my +mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and +I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. +You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those +houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. +Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and +we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't +speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and +didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with +Oswald on political questions, because he understood. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, +you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, +she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the +American occupation of Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't +his original name. + +Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, +spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's +originally his name. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here +in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for +quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been +with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few +occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in +the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we +didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you +that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might +be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of +President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the +assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please +state what you have in mind? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union +so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but +knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her +arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet +Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of +my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to +get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be +old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and +here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out +and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I +know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out +of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my +mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's +everything. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had +a short talk with you before we began this deposition. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our +off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, +that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record +discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is +inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any +time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to +influence you in any statements you might have made? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and +in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the +moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that +while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, +I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your +deposition. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov +at this point. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS + +The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April +6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant +counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter. + + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise +your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly +swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and +Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Today? + +Mr. BELIN. Now. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873). + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Latvia. + +Mr. BELIN. May I ask approximately how old you are? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Seventy-four years old. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to +America? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I +was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia. + +I was educated in Russia, in Moscow. + +I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian +territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of +the city where I was teaching in Latvia. + +Mr. BELIN. Latvia became independent in 1918? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three +Baltic countries around 1939, or so? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1940. In 1913, I got married. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Do you need a very detailed story on her life? + +Mr. BELIN. No. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils, +and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd +at that time. This was in 1915. + +Mr. BELIN. Now it is Leningrad? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Leningrad. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia +from that time on until after--for how long? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my +daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't +let him out. + +Mr. BELIN. From 1919 onward, where did you live? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a +teacher in Latvia. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you teach? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to +junior high, and the Russian language. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you work for the State or for a private school? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. State school. + +Mr. BELIN. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the +Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know the city? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian +border. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. All the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Until when? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a +teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as +a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in +Riga, which is the Latvian Capital. + +Mr. BELIN. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to +Latvia with you? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't +go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923. + +Mr. BELIN. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia +then, and what happened to him? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station +manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And +we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what ever became of him? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my +sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1944, I went to Germany. + +Mr. BELIN. You went with your daughter and son-in-law? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; and two children. + +Mr. BELIN. And your two children? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Your two grandchildren? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you stay in Germany? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Bavaria. + +Mr. BELIN. In a camp? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and +so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences +until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Four years in--until October of 1949, when we went to +Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started +with "G". + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go in the United States when you got here? +Where have you lived since you have come here? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York City. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived +since then? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 1-1/2 or 2. However, we left New York +February 28, 1952. + +Mr. BELIN. And you came to---- + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post. + +Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small +towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield. + +Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with +your daughter and son-in-law? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume +then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have +lived in Texas? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other +than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession. + +Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr. +Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating +the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the +sidewalks. + +I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was +born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual +students. + +Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to +Texas, is private tutoring? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring +on and off, because it is not enough students. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs. +Michael Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I +was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't +remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian +instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons +cost? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid? + +Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but +I heard somewhere from $5 to $6. + +Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50. + +Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration. + +Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour. + +Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or +would this be several people in the class? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had +two, then I received $3. + +Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was +taking lessons before I came to that school. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School. +This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and +Mrs. Paine dropped out of school. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office +and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law +would teach her at home. + +Mr. BELIN. At whose home? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per +hour, private lesson. + +Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the +Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious. + +Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers, +that you know of, in Russia? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me? + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in +Russia? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs. +Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher +was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes. +Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of +the city. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian +teacher? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through +a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question +her any more. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the +grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean? + +Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher, +or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political +discussion involved? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs. +Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February, +and then she discontinued taking lessons. + +Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years +old, so we say 1961. + +Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960. + +Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more +Russian language lessons? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit +taking lessons? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs. +Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, +that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and +his wife is a Russian. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the +phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, +and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the +English language and nobody could help her. + +Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that +time. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald, +her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina +Oswald? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two. + +Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was +said? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a +severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the +Paine's home. + +Mr. BELIN. This would have been when? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This +was this past summer, 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from +and where she lived before she came to this country? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in +Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in +Leningrad, on Ligovka Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk, +and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She +lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived +on this street in Leningrad. + +Mr. BELIN. After she was married? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got +married? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again? + +Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then +together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad +on this street, Ligovka Street. + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers +this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor +part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow +brought mother's memory back to Petrograd. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she +was married, or what her husband did? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a +pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and +mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of +Russia. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came +with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you +out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck." + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United +States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason +she lives at Mrs. Paine's home. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to +get out of Russia other than that she had luck? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I +didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who +is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got +out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and +couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the +United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you +mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any +kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of +work is below his dignity. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by +the word Communist? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just +what she would call it. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a +person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in +this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said, +"Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in +their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the +characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes." + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly +how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I +think in your investigation it is very important. + +She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the +individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word, +which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who +believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement. +Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to +insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of +this word. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and +it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist +ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist +Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist +Party. + +And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I +translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So +it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth +Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this +third step is eventually for this particular work. + +Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to +become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't +talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of +the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for +the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because +this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They +are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic +people. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to +the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which +I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal +experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this, +who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the +Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I +was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the +Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the +screening process that gets memberships, is that correct? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the +members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become, +they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the +individual deed. + +Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it +is now? + +Mr. BELIN. Both. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which +is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are +approximately 5 or more million people members. + +Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there +are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or +members of the communistic youth organization. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get +education. You cannot advance in your educational system. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from +the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this +was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you +to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them +as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to +work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free +education or scholarship. + +Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this +affect whether or not you get out of the country? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in +Dallas, Tex.? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans +here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to +meet with the Russians any more. + +Mr. BELIN. Why not? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel +that because she got tired of being questioned all the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work +here? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However, +mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a +small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and +they didn't have an automobile. + +Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. +And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he +went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or +had done in Russia and where he had gone? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so +much. I didn't ask her any more questions. + +Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald +have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she +volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people +locally would have. + +Mr. BELIN. Why was this? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was +it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a +member of the Communist Party? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee +Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion, +if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to +have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia. + +Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go +hunting? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting +clubs over there. + +Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are +professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. +Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm. + +Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to +a hunting club? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to +discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better +because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were +better? In what way would they be better than the average person there? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better +area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives, +that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United +States? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she +was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our +President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was +unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom. + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States? + +Mr. BELIN. Here in the States. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she +did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her +daughter. + +Mr. BELIN. And what church? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox. + +Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you +had with her that she said about her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is +below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very +much. That is my personal interpretation. + +Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina +Oswald said about her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with +Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times. + +Mr. BELIN. Two more? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total. + +Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. When was the second one? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember +exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio. + +Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina +Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina +Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine +about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a +photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New +Orleans. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet +Marina Oswald or her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I +mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring +Marina to our house. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband. + +Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was +in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I +am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some +information on us and notifying their own people. + +Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey +Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage +trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about +whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be +trying to spy, or what have you? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I said to---- + +Mr. BELIN. To Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be +more careful. + +Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine say to that? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American +woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and +very generous. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the +Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course. + +Mr. BELIN. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been +asked to come here? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered, +if you interpret it that way. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey +Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean personal opinion? + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald--I did not know her +last name, she always called her Marina and Lee--so Mrs. Paine told +me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why. +She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't +have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back +to the Soviet Union." I said that this isn't true. I was surprised, +and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person +doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in +the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true, +that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her +personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere. + +She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and +bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she +is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help, +had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, +and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very +surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American +didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to +people who don't have money. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more +to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should +be noted here, that we should discuss? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Maybe, but I don't remember right now. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he +even hit her, Marina. + +Mr. BELIN. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She +said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write +her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would +reprimand his wife." + +Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been +different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, +or was this something different that happened when they came to New +Orleans? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Marina did not tell me. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that +might be helpful here? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this +year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had +intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that +she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina +knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew +that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs. +Paine. + +Mr. BELIN. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip +somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else. + +Mr. BELIN. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon +which to base it? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; this is my personal feeling. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I would help you more, but I don't have enough +acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I +know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine +or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so +Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her +husband came home after the President was assassinated. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did he come home, do you know? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And +she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it +easier on her after that particular time. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant? + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, +Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help. + +Mrs. GRAVITIS. Thank you; Mr. Belin. + +Mr. BELIN. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the +deposition and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down +and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and +let it go directly to Washington? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. She trusts you without signing. + +Mr. BELIN. So you waive the signing? + +Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY + +The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March +31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GREGORY. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley +J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's +Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have +been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to +authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. + +I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the +week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. +I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the +Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of +Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge +of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained +as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of +Oklahoma; isn't that right? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma? + +Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University? + +Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University? + +Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's? + +Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live? + +Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is +that not correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do +you know? + +Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of +the exact year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is +that correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been +February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right +around my birthday, which is February the 10th. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born? + +Mr. GREGORY. 1941. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the +telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared +before the Commission in Washington. + +Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I +guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave +before the Commission? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the +only thing he said about the testimony. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and +his wife, Marina? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of +that event? + +Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would +suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house +in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted +with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with +the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian +language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; +some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to +use Russian. + +I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because +I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was +staying at the time. + +And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and +I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard. +So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a +visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle +of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald +or Marina Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962, +your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house? + +Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned? + +Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been +at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our +house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first +time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this +dinner which you mentioned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner? + +Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the +summer, I imagine, in August, 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his +brother's place in Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting? + +Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's +wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee, +and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the +conversation was at that time? + +Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken +in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I +believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And +then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how +they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to +know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all +the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about +the Oswalds' life in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of +discussion about it, but not this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the +Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate +number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you +saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you +met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that +you saw them? + +Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and +right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited +in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good +idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite +a big help. + +Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June, +a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went +over to their house, my father and I. + +We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten +minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from +Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I +think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember +the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from, +say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the +middle of September. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father +gave for the Oswalds? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner? + +Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller, +her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr. +Clark. I can't give you their first names. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a +possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly. + +Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were +there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe +my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's +husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't +there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more, +if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after +Thanksgiving of 1962. + +Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she +and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or +something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the +visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode +the bus over from Dallas. + +They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and +brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them +down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went +and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee +or Marina Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around +$35 or $40, something like that. + +This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember, +$35, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that +correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Marina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the +Oswalds any money? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money? + +Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them +gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he +gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any +bills while in your presence? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would +go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping +and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get +groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But +the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much +they spent on food? + +Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little +they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat. +He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and +he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he +would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought +very little though. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any +money or pay any bills; is that correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be, +"Yes; I did not see them"? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or +discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about +them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for +June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds +together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would +you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or +Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald +went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why +he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on? + +Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I +never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him. + +At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it, +he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American +system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and +the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I +ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left. + +Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was +very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I +don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and +going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the +Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was +sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or +something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and +the second one would be one which I am not sure of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have +indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from +the Marines? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told +me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, +from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers +that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information +which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a +discharge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that +you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you +that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and +you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from +Arlington? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet +Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to +him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember +asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always +read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter +because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to +buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and +phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran +some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he +had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into +another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of +Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and +they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And +then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place +in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup +and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had +to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it +around to face Lenin's new position. + +He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in +the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist +Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as +opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out +of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist +Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and +therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought +it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party +were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise +and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a +disgust for the members of the Communist Party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my +impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which +the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true +Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, +in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my +part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that +he worked and what he did? + +Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember +his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough +to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand +in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes +and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how +poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet +Union, that he didn't eat very well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet +citizens, or---- + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received +more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held +similar jobs? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly +received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the +Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of +favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing +shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived +in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, +because he had no place to go. + +If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get +a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in +the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, +and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the +apartment. + +Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said, +"Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite +a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I +am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She +said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know +who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, +because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later +somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is," +and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone. + +I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was +some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another +fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to +correspond with these people over there. + +He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was +getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one +was the son of a highly fairly influential person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him +being a general's son or a colonel's son. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one +letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal +letter. Maybe I would. + +Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name? + +Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel, +I am fairly sure of the Pavel part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct. + +Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one +you just mentioned? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining +something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where +it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me +something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal +matters. I can't even remember the contents. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at +this point? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, +that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly +he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has +been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet +Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be +given when he got there. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and +I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was +interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were +quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, +fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to +go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application +for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign +students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not +accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over +there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him +somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like +this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to +Russia was to enter college or university there? + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but +that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make +this application. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application +to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you +in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had +received by Russian authorities? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was +touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he +felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about +meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina +worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to +leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where +they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement +for the fact that they did allow her to return with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he +said about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings? + +Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to +why they did let Marina come back. + +Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident +where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow +it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her +go. It was more or less an accident. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had +been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or +something that he couldn't readily explain? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted +Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of +reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the +subject of Marina being able to come back with him? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with +all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for +her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous +difficulties as a result of this? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that +Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was +put upon her by her friends? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, +that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done +in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned +as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which +was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And +I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee +would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the +mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to +speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him +an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, +because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't +remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the +Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American. +It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends +that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not. + +When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations +was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they +took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back, +and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get +quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the +Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the +street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's +name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this +to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks. + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he +looked at things critically over there. + +He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is +right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he +saw over there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now +your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and +perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it +out? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was +just complaining about things, do you? + +Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point +was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone +who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not +that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He +seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot +read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was +a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very +brilliant man and very able leader. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said +about him, Mr. Khrushchev? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that +was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he +would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind, +and he expressed admiration of Kennedy. + +Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say +anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because +I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their +living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy +or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as +admiration for Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his +remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him +concerning Kennedy? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their +apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said, +"He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a +good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about +Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any +adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the +presence of anyone else? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made +any remarks about Governor Connally? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she +too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President +Kennedy? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably +indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English +or understand English? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be +true. I couldn't answer the question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak +English during the time you knew her? + +Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert +Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would +go sit in the corner while everyone else ate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what? + +Mr. GREGORY. Ate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the +corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in +time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What +have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't +learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had +used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to +study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if +she used them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the +extent to which she could understand English? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with +me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you +do," something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian? + +Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong +accent. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a +judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly +spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than +I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to +in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of +grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get +peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say +like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct +him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why +Marina did not learn English? + +Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not +picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home +and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious +attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was +an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't +help her. + +I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would +send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct +them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these +lessons started after I had gone away to school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's +ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen +this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received? + +Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit +of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the +grammar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was +particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been +in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he +could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical +knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him +do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian. + +I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in +Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read? + +Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library +and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read +in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the +end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the +grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he +would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was, +but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he +always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book +about Lenin? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was +all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought +home from the library that you saw in his apartment? + +Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely +interesting. I can't give any titles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of +the study of history? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very +smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was +my opinion of him. + +He just said he always had this love of history, and he several +times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to +get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or +something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he +did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted +to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history +and philosophy and things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to +TCU? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you? + +Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was? + +Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a +lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he +was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time +I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we +went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening +classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he +wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the +officials at TCU concerning the night school program? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came +back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the +occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he +referred to the schedule. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive +whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when? + +Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either +way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was +encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an +excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not +finish high school. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about +his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that +he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he +received from his job at the factory? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have +enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the +factory? + +Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of +income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember +the amount that he was paid. + +Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was +the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It +seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and +he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of +which he seemed to be very proud. + +I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a +closet full of junk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them? + +Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one +article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet +Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you +have just expressed? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet +Union, but I can't identify the articles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might +have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was +the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, +and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he +spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow +before leaving the Soviet Union to return? + +Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he +was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I +heard him mention being in Moscow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he +encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to +return to the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the +difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put +on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out +specifically. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered +with the U.S. authorities in that regard? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about +the U.S. officials concerning his return? + +Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned +him money to return? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way +or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation +would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect +this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never +expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that +gave him the money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the +Government officials concerning his return? + +Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to +the State Department? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions +with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet +Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived? + +Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an +outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the +two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case, +that she did pay attention to him. + +He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, +could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where +the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or +something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he +helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were +lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them +any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if +he had too many acquaintances. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the +fellow factory workers were trying to learn English? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help +him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he +evidently gave him quite a bit of help. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was +trying to learn English? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and +refused to pay attention. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in +learning Russian? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian +language while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he +went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just +stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina +helped him quite a bit. + +Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared +to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union. + +In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his +Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and +therefore he gave me the dictionary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman? + +Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing +and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there +or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate +it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you +in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the +Commission. How do you want to handle it? + +Mr. GREGORY. Either way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service. + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and +we will eventually return it to you. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you +are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to +Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are +the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that +available. + +Mr. GREGORY. All right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips +that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to +firearms? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything +that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special +interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used +that terminology? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but +evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met +quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure, +but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, +too. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have +said about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had +written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they +refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her +difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they +disapproved her decision to come to the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that +she had with her relatives? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to +you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion? + +Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested +and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to +me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it +was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept +saying, "When I learn English, it will be different." + +She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I +will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite +enthusiastic about America. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested +to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you +discuss that with her at all? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and +she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into +it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't +want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I +can't answer specifically. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help +her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian +or to improve your Russian? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with +Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the +Soviet Union and return to the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was +dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed +to be one of his major things. + +And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he +went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the +workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This +might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that +they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe +in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he +believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the +party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, +that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they +were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because +so-and-so and so-and-so." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised +in the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told +you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East +Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about +that. + +Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just +asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and +something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it, +where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or +some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it, +but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet +Union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in +Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York? + +Mr. GREGORY. He did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I +have just stated? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the +United States to Texas? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the +conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you +previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed +to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he +thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about +the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never +had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I +remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them +to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be +interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really +have any strong feelings, they would have come out then. + +He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living +in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad +part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment +there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of +wealth and position? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he +ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to +Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission +to become married, or anything of that nature? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite +fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you +about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already +covered? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian +military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of +equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from +Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he +knew anything about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you? + +Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and +economics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this, +because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very +much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than +most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us +as much as you can. + +Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the +impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he +would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because +he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview +with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a +question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind +of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't +know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion +about economics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him +and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on +their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity +of the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because +I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get +someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to +get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but +he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just +talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we +went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her +arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. +You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was +the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to +be mad, because Marina had dropped the child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms? + +Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do? + +Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say? + +Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the +medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through +it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut +on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out +again, but it was a real hot moment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other +reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper? + +Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard +reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this +time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did +you get the black eye. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any reason to think that---- + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own +experience? + +Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought +maybe it could have happened back there then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your +opinion that he had a bad temper? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person +that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We +were very friendly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, +is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit +him as an agent? + +Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed +toward the Soviet. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just +didn't enter my mind that he could have been. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered +this question; is that correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all? + +Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less +his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was +interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange +program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students +and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was, +how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told +me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never +get there." + +He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get +involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought +about everything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on +your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the +assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was, +but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say, +fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant. + +But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him +mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the +assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the +assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion +you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you +knew him in 1962? + +Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I +enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very +pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He +had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more +or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone +he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath +him, and he thought that everyone was judging him. + +I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they +were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts. + +And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced +the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations +were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very +smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other +examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about +what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of +education? + +Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal +education? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make +any inquiries on that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished +high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher +education. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the +opinion, that he was capable of violent acts? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only +picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of +person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into +a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him +doing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the +assassination? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general +judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go +downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would +probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my +general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever +happened. It is just a general judgment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is +it not? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that +caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was +peculiar in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he +never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did +think that about Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation +was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders +in the various countries? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement, +and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the +leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy? + +Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I +have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of +Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall +that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles +being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to +reflect on your prior testimony? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the +statement. It was more or less---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed +at all? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; no such animosity. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack +Ruby? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits, +as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned? + +Mr. GREGORY. He never drank in my presence. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any +other women during the time that you knew him? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he was? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or in his possession? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or discuss the subject of firearms? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the +Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent? + +Mr. GREGORY. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first +time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he +came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time he had been to TCU? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to +commit suicide? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The same question as to Marina? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know James Martin? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never met James Martin at any time? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet him in Oklahoma? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I never met him in Oklahoma. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin? + +Mr. GREGORY. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his +brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another +half brother and his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The name was Pic, was it not? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I learned that after the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination did you learn that there was a +man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager? + +Mr. GREGORY. I believe I read the name in the paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or +any other place? + +Mr. GREGORY. Never heard of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be +Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or +anything else? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about +Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if +we ever went anywhere, I drove. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a +simple statement? + +Mr. GREGORY. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he +said, "Yes." + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you ask him that? + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery +store or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive a car? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about +it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he +rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of +him driving a car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been +arrested in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. GREGORY. Very. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at +that time? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television +when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And +later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I +felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in +because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be +a likely person, but I did not think he had done it. + +The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service +talked to me and said the evidence looked---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and +said it looked like he was the one. And my--I more or less reoriented +my thinking that he was the one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you +remember? + +Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Nielsen? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think that was it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's +alleged guilt? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he just said something that, I think something came +over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then +he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or +something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't +remember the exact words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was +a member during the time you knew him? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he +belonged? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he +associated? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then +the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think I heard my father mention the name De +Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you do not know him personally, however? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. If there is anything that +you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it. + +If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I +haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the +record now. + +Mr. GREGORY. No; I think you have covered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to +thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman +to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very +much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE + +The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Helen Leslie of 4209 Hanover Street, Fort +Worth, Tex. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Not Fort Worth--Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about +to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member +of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was +created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission +to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald +Kennedy. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, I know what it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And all the circumstances surrounding it. + +Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the +commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the +United States, is chairman. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to +you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to +inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that +assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had +any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, +Marina Oswald. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking +here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to +assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein +and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking +your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us. + +Mrs. LESLIE. I will be glad to--as much as I can. + +Mr. JENNER. You just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen +to you. + +Mrs. LESLIE. I don't think I know very much; actually it is very little. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you appear voluntarily. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. Now, you want to know if I met the man and his wife? + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can take it by easy steps, if you will let me. + +Mrs. Leslie, you live in Dallas? + +Mrs. LESLIE. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I +was born, how I came here? + +Mr. JENNER. All right, do that, will you? + +Mrs. LESLIE. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This +year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years +ago. + +Mr. JENNER. 2 years ago? + +Mrs. LESLIE. In 1960--it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband +died in 1947, whom I married--I married in 1923, so I am a widow about +17 years. + +Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but +my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife, +asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live +together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I +settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and +where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret--there was not a real +Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which +certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a +Russian church on Newton Street. + +Mr. JENNER. On what street? + +Mrs. LESLIE. On Newton Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that St. Nicholas? + +Mrs. LESLIE. No, St. Seraphim. + +Mr. JENNER. The sermon is preached in English, is it not, at St. +Seraphim? + +Mrs. LESLIE. In English--Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way, +Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came +there to christen the daughter June, I heard. + +Now, I was introduced to a few Russian people here. + +Mr. JENNER. When you came here? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and +she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She +is a ballerina--a dancer. She met here many people--mostly connected +with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's +Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs. +Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. To Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Declan Ford and then to the Mellers. + +Mr. JENNER. The Mellers, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some +Russians in Fort Worth--those Fort Worth Russians--the Clarks. + +Mr. JENNER. Max Clark--Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Those are all the Russians which I knew here. + +Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in +1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there +was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am +interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in +Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them +and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet +Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother +since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but +I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them, +because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George +Bouhe's apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the +12th of June 1962. + +Mrs. LESLIE. 1962--so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which +year it was--it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him--I +just have seen them once. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a meeting at George Bouhe's house? + +Mrs. LESLIE. At George Bouhe's house--where he lives--I could be wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it during the daytime or the evening? + +Mrs. LESLIE. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't +know exactly--I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some +entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this +couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was there in addition to yourself and Mr. Bouhe? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for +dinner, so I presume it was something--3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we +were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place +for dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. And who was present on that occasion? + +Mrs. LESLIE. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I +tell you--when I was introduced to Oswald--I didn't catch his name, his +last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't +impress me very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--he didn't impress me, you know, but the only +thing--the only one thing impressed me--he was talking quite fluently +Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in +very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there, +but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian +language, but sometimes he was--he didn't use grammar things or +something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some +mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Marina? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying--they +have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a +pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I +think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy +and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will +tell you--this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to +help everybody he can. So, he was born also in--Petrograd, before the +Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard +she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this +couple. He wanted to help them. + +Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and +she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard +even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of +Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now--so many new +words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice +Russian language and that's all I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she speak good grammatically? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a +different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because +she knew all terms, the Latin terms--something that not many people +know, because she was educated in this field. + +Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby, +you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby +it was. It wasn't the second baby then. + +Then, I never met them--sometimes I was getting calls--how was this +Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work +for him--he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too +little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them +financially. + +Mr. JENNER. Bouhe solicited money from you and others? + +Mrs. LESLIE. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a +quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or +anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money +and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they +are and so on. + +Mr. JENNER. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that +you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing +extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a +man like George Bouhe? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet +with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is +a temperate man, a little bit--he can tell you--insult you sometimes +without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years, +so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of +the finest things which happens. + +When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of +my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian +costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in +an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he +wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted +to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was +pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then--she was very +pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took +her photograph in the costume and when I was 5 years old, I sold this +photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I +forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston +with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting +Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and +it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a +portrait of my mother. + +It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years +out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was +a very rare case. + +I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find +it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years +finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe, +I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition, +maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more. +He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't +have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he +says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for +$60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care +only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20." +And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this +book--or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?" + +There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how +can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book +and I will show you. I cannot tell you." + +And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks +and so forth?' + +I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you +call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I +have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I +found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my +job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank +him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can +show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know +you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which +one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not +interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force +myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you +know, so since that--it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of +it. + +After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at +Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He +says he doesn't want me to know him--he doesn't want to know me, so I +do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and +that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since--since this case, but +I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology. +I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and +when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know, +duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's +the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with +Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say, +"Hello, how are you," and that's all. + +Mr. JENNER. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act +toward each other on the occasion when you saw them? + +Mrs. LESLIE. I will tell you something--I don't know if Bouhe told you +or others too. When she was out at a place--she had a black eye and she +has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a +question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I +hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a +light, the door was open and I hit it--the kitchen door." + +And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he +was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was +sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was +Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a +Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife--this +is not proper--to beat his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, now, we don't approve of that in America. + +Mrs. LESLIE. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and +like Fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out +in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little +blanket--she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she +said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English +and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do +and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house +and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I +don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took +her--I think, you know, that she was staying with them. + +I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I +lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I +didn't see her until when she was on television. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to ask you about a certain George De +Mohrenschildt. + +Mrs. LESLIE. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my +daughter's and he is in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know that. + +Mrs. LESLIE. And he was patronizing Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of fellow was George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. LESLIE. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have +pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting +her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter--Nattialie Krassooska +of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima +ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going +together, swimming together, and I don't know where--that's why she +invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when +I came, he already married this Jeanne. + +Mr. JENNER. Jeanne? + +Mrs. LESLIE. She's Russian--I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or +Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name +is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know, +a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South +America or somewhere, you know, they walked. + +Mr. JENNER. From the Mexican border down to Panama? + +Mrs. LESLIE. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were +the arrangements he made--with some Life Magazine, or something, +but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make +geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens +like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very +much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she +sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a +letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife, +Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he +was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then, +occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then +once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they +were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will +tell you something--that what many people were afraid of, his wife is +atheist. She doesn't believe in God. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my +daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing +in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist +too, you know, so I don't know--maybe he always is under the influence +of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't +know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says, +"Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about +him. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and +his attitude? + +Mrs. LESLIE. You know, after this trip, they are very--they don't like +to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks, +dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a +little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect +them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was +saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or +I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and +there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't know what kind of +people--whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I +cannot tell. + +I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so +that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts. + +Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't +either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with--and I +don't know who knows them best, but I think--whether the Mellers do or +not--I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in +these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they +was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew +he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably +she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you +know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is +so hard to leave from there--his wife and child, why they let them out. + +Mr. DAVIS. Did this occur to you? + +Mrs. LESLIE. It has occurred to everybody--how--he was so poor and +Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time +he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans--he was +taking these trips--who supplied him with money--nobody knows. You +know, that's a thought everybody was thinking--how he went there and +how--it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions. + +Mr. JENNER. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers +and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of +good heartedness? + +Mrs. LESLIE. I hope so--I think so--I hope so. Mostly, you know, I +cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I +don't know--he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. On the Baltic Sea? + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural +that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and +not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their +place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I +know--they was meeting them--somebody told that the FBI was looking for +De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I +think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this +is over. Probably he will come back into the United States. + +Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes--I wanted to tell this--so, when this +naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy +was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was +Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot +and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume +that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald, +and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her; +you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know +his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything, +and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met +them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a +friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did +you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his +name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name." + +They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And +they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said, +"Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more +closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize +him, because when you are not expecting--I didn't know his last name +and such a common face he has, and such a--you couldn't remember his +face very closely--it is just one person you can recognize him, and +that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so +bad; I shaked his hand--I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked +his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the +President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to +touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I +am sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen her since the occasion you met her? + +Mrs. LESLIE. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford. +It was correct that they was helping her because she received so much +from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and +they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything +and they was investing it or something--I don't know the situation, but +she is now--they asked her--as Russian--to watch over her. I don't know +what she does--I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to +my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to--I don't know, +but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to--I don't +know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in, +I know, at an inconvenience to you. + +Mrs. LESLIE. But if I can help with something I want to. + +Mr. JENNER. You were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it, +you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer +to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; you will mail it to me? + +Mr. JENNER. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. +attorney's office, he will have it. + +Mrs. LESLIE. I have to write his name. + +Mr. JENNER. And he will know when your transcript is ready. + +Mrs. LESLIE. He will call me on the telephone? + +Mr. JENNER. You had better call him because there are so many +witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and +read it and sign it. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told +it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide +anything. + +Mr. DAVIS. That's the name and the phone number. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Sir, I will call him and ask him--what I have to ask--is +my deposition ready? + +Mr. JENNER. If the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read? + +Mrs. LESLIE. To read--all right; thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. You give him your name and he will tell you. + +Mr. DAVIS. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may +be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant +attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be +the one you could reach and she would be at this same number. + +Mrs. LESLIE. All right; I will do it. + +Mr. DAVIS. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank +you so much, Mrs. Leslie. + +Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT + +The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m., on +April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr. +Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. +Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition +you are about to give? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received +letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have +you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one. + +Mr. JENNER. One joint letter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter. + +Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint +Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of +the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John +Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon +Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and +appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and +obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by +the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and +by deposition. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission? + +Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment. + +I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the +Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to +the subject matter with which the Commission is charged. + +In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. +Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and +the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John +F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that +assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the +Commission relevant to its obligations. + +In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for +some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of +deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of +their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina +Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of +our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt +befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with +them. + +As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people +who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the +facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that +are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious. + +I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may +not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of +course, than any one witness would know. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me +quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President +Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren +committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, +being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international +assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract +may be broken. + +So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he +said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best. + +Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, +this is unofficial--one of the ministers informed me of that--in which +this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I +am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band. + +Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter. + +Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a +letter he received from someone. + +Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that? + +Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure +it could not have been anything official. + +I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the +Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter +and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, +personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary +admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do +anything like that, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be +somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication +from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non +grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or +that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non +grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there +in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is +important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, +and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with +it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first +came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. +It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the +country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally +got that contract about in March last year. + +So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also +to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me +to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, +just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this +respect, because it is really very important to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American +geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I +have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is +not a fly-by-night project, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about +it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. +You were born in 1911? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April +4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the +calendar. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in +calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here. + +Mr. JENNER. And what date by---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th. + +Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you born? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr. + +Mr. JENNER. What country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland +rather than Russia. Would you explain this? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never +lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is +that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian +descent. + +Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may +I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your +grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and +received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, +or maybe your family. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name +is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the +spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a +Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a +typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in +any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, +you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they +probably changed it to S-c-h-i-l-d-t. And it can also be written in +Russian, at the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the +Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk +Province. + +Mr. JENNER. He was what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected +representative of the landowners to the Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and +spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes +Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe +five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well. + +Mr. JENNER. Spanish? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish. + +Mr. JENNER. French? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it. + +Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they +speak French there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was---- + +Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying +to make this informal. I want you to relax. + +May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, +I will tend to inquire into these things. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what +I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, +international business---- + +Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation +have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because +when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of +anything. I am very outspoken. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand that you are, from witnesses I have +interviewed, and from these mountains of reports. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those +reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my +business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be +the circumstances of death. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an +important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he +had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean +nothing. You tell us what you mean by that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the +persecution of Jews. + +Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some +elements of oppression of the Czarist government. + +Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional +government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member +of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that. + +Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago. + +Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who +is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I +should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as +you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And +it will be printed as part of the report. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the +future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what +I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I +vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the +Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an +independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility +position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older +brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't +remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there--in +the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came. + +Mr. JENNER. And that came when? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon? + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were +returned to Minsk. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, +one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters +of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so +sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile. + +Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. +Petersburg and Moscow? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me +such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very +difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a +story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a +memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed +it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to +change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little +bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many +years, because I did write it down. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was +governor--not governor, but marshal of nobility of. + +Mr. JENNER. What province is that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where +Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his +experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very +well. + +Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the +Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, +and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I +don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied +by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I +don't remember which one---there was famine there. So we escaped. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the +time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my +brother was in the Naval Academy at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course. + +He is about 12 years older than you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11. + +Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, +more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, +or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived +there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists +eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make +it short. + +Mr. JENNER. Please--that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But +I want times. About when was your father put in jail? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. By whom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the +first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember +very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first +time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were +fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released +my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we +always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who +always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, +because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway +Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to +escape from Soviet Russia. + +The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland +again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated +and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide +whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father +decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression +that they have changed. + +Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have +become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some +kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember +which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because +he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what +was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, +also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of +the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this +appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture--I don't remember +what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain +number of months--although there was a famine there. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then +one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show +you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing +museums in churches. And my father objected to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by +principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected +to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too +much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started +criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more +distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. +And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing. + +Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. +This was a revolutionary period? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living +somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He +is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life +imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far +as I remember the name of it. + +And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever +they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government +do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, +"Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence--just +because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against +him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very +sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped +previously---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't +remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised +my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, +and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the +position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was +not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be +sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that +he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of +times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, +and he was able to be sent to Siberia. + +And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is +where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped +him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, +in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland. + +Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno. + +Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died +from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had +this typhoid fever. + +Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was what year? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von +Mohrenschildt at this particular time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French +orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like +the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we +used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, +interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite +some time, and died here---- + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give +his full name. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt +was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in +Washington? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist +Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married +McAdoo's daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post. + +Is she still alive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona. + +Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. +She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he +died--I guess in 1925 or 1924. + +Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But +supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of +the Baltic nobility. + +Mr. JENNER. Through what source? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of +Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his +perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no. + +Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to +many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in +the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you +perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that +of record. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons, +in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to +use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea. + +Mr. JENNER. Which one? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and +your brother Dimitri? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, +which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high +school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that +is where our home was. + +Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back +our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land. + +Mr. JENNER. In Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist +Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through +the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this +estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the +border. + +Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among +themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe +5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres. + +Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take +it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to +sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the +peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, +probably jointly. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call +the gymnasium, in 1929. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years sf age? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father +during this period? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to--I did not like the country +very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly +feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like +home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission +to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission +because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the +Polish Army. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the +cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it +was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility +displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it +because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible +for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a +reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the +same position or division in the Polish Army? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people +there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German +aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some +exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, +not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, +and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, +you have to have your own horse. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land +from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about +my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then +became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was +always--always liked to teach. + +Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his +profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience +as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a +professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the high school? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the +immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number +of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or +1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different +school. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in +which he was teaching? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's--not +supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, +by the way--did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university +in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee +school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish +school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you +have a command? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, +because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted +schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who +graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half. + +Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military +service? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate +officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned +officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military +academy. + +Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be +commissioned a second lieutenant? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely +a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a +commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives +you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and +pursue that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was +free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur +de Commerce a Anvers. + +Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher +commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of +higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, +from time to time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go +with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that +twice. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very +hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what +it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a +candidate officer. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the +contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get +it on the record here--your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, +he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he +was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start +very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you +would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial +Navy, became a midshipman. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, +which is the headquarters there. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as +March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at +Dartmouth and Yale. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a +midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from +Annapolis here. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in +the navy, all the time--even when you are 12 years old, you are a +member of the navy. It is not like here. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period +of fighting. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist +groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in +a town called Smolensk. + +Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the +time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in +a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at +liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them. + +My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they +told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say +one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices. + +Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him +against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist +prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners +of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my +father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic +bishop in Poland. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my +brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined +us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the +United States. + +Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on +the 20th of August 1920. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate +year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just +before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join +the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was +appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But +we have you now in Belgium, attending the university. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still +in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He +had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval +academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly +better than high school here. + +Mr. JENNER. Junior college? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher +commercial studies in Antwerp? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, +probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. +You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in +maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation. + +Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you received---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there. + +Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher +learning in Europe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon. + +Mr. JENNER. And you received a---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and +commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. +It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a +specialization in maritime transportation. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master +of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's +degree, you continued on for another year, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. No; you entered---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years. + +Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that degree? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of +the United States on Latin America. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in +Latin America? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are +about---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938. + +Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now,---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me +from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was +studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married. + +Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady +by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with +Edward Hooker, were you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she +not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some +place. She lives between New York and Paris. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during +this period? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were +pursuing your studies at two universities? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a +girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski +clothes, and that sort of thing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through +Europe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, +from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an +excellent saleswoman. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation +in the estate you had? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me +to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand +dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but +at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I +really don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much +as $10,000. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't have---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this +business, Sigurd. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, +decided to come to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced +me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came +to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a +mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, +between my ex-girl friend and myself. + +Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938. + +Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain +yourself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought +some money with me--something like $10,000, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately? + +Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, +if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started +selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some +materials for Shumaker and Company. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. 750? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the +summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island. + +Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also +her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a +divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. +We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little +girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also +very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we +still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally +correspond. + +Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials +in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my +blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which +is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and +confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. +I arrived in Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there--because that skips +some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that? + +Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful. + +Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy. + +Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. +I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an +insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that +examination. So that was the end of my insurance business. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which +was--this is about 1941. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for +Humble Oil Co. + +Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939. + +Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and +wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry. + +Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what +actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a +very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret +Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in +Louisiana. That is about the year 1939. + +I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's +aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New +Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co. + +Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, +but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I +applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil +Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through +mutual acquaintances. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig. + +Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning +machinery. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well +paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at +the time. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for +the record. + +You are 6'1", are you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to +ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I +went to Arizona. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do +is get your personality into the record, because many people have +described your personality. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably. + +Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised +the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would +be surprised. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to +get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble +Oil Co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the +Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I +know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to +play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to +get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason +I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember +what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is +after my experience with Humble Oil Co. + +Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you +call it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called. + +Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months. + +Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery +in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was +badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, +frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. +I do not remember. Maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. But +I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the +company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the +oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and +education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me +the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean--drill +wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well. + +Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so +early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of +business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that." + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could +do it without capital. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did +you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic +dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried +insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this +insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, +Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of +money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it +was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then--yes, then comes the +draft time in the U.S. Army. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, +and they found I have high blood pressure. + +Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in +1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish +Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I +did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas +experience with the Humble Oil Co. + +Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was +just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was +there--I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe +it was my duty to be in the Polish Army. + +And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I +never arrived in Poland. + +I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late +to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably +wouldn't be alive today. + +Mr. JENNER. You have some---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, +I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it +is not my intention. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You +are calling on your own recollection. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call +it, tenuous connection with some movie business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went +into. + +Mr. JENNER. This was 1941? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron +Maydell. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person. + +Mr. JENNER. In what sense? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him +pro-Nazi. + +Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a +German spy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer +in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything +through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back +to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White +Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had +been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and +so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. +And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary +movies. + +Mr. JENNER. Documentary? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film +Facts Incorporated. + +Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the +Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over +the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, +because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite +a number of people here. I remember most of them--by Grace, who is +president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we +could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This +is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made +in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by +Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell +had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for +the benefit of the Polish refugees. + +Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small +amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually +a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make +some money; number two, to help the Polish cause. + +So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to +be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it +together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very +moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. +I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or +something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership. + +The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think +they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in +the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their +own purpose. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will +Never Die." It was an assembly job. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music +together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did +not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York +to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it +all together. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great +grandfather. + +Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, +later went to Russia, entered the oil business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family +some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the +Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron +Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in +it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name +of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went +back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on +his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and +inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the +American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, +being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you +call it--a descendant---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a +member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about +that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the +lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in +Vintage Wine, Inc. + +Mr. JENNER. On a commission? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and +Company. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French +intelligence in the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in +1941. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in +pro-German activity, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you +see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that +it was French intelligence. + +Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and +tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for +the French interests. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the +United States were not at war yet at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system +whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil +by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some +contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we +met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose +names now I have forgotten. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think +it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and +daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States +got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they +could not buy oil here anyhow. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000--I thought it was $10,000, +frankly. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom? + +Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. +Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your +recollection was better in 1945 than it is now. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. +Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? +Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come +back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical +doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. +Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in +Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well. + +Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy +Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, +the good life, and very good businessman at the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people +accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, +you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--Lilia +Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was +a divorcee. + +Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a +husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman. + +Mr. JENNER. Guasco? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, +anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell +in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United +States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my +experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond +comprehension. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't +have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could +laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend +following false trails. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are +following them. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they +followed. + +But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for +awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from +Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet. + +Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach. + +On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by +some characters. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach +enjoying the sunshine. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make--take some photographs when you were in +Aransas Pass? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other. + +Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas +Pass? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, +I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the +coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the +Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass? + +Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one +to tell me about that. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, +which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, +and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down +at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an +outing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay +of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass. + +Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was +then at war. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military +installations around Aransas Pass. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with +this lady friend of yours? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of +the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are +a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is +my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I +thought they were from some comedy actors. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI. + +Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have +the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed +me all the way from New York--all the way from New York. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched +your car? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, +except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches. + +Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, +very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to +the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't +forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That +I do not recall exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint +officially. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially. + +Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was +stolen. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they +expelled me from Mexico. + +Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a +statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico +City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except +painting and going around with Lilia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some +money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and +the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that +outfit, because it was going to--the stock was going to go up, which I +did. I made some nice money out of that investment. + +Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 +months with this lady? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on +Avenue De--the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. +Paseo de la reforma. + +Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some +difficulty in Mexico, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army. + +Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away +from me. We were going to get married. + +Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think +by the time she got to Mexico--she already got a Mexican divorce. I am +sure she did. She was already free. + +Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question +about whether it was good in the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she +was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We +thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and +had me thrown out of the country. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some +accusation? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really? + +Mr. JENNER. I am asking you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non +grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as +I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why +am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done +anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back +to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some +Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of +those Mexicans who tried to help me. + +Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your attorney? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a +good friend of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to +leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of +Mexico." + +Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other +friends, and did some traveling around Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. +And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You +could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there +at the time was a young MacArthur boy. + +Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. +He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips +together. The son of John MacArthur. + +Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. By train? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I +don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a +chair car. But, believe me, they are very often---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started +to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that. + +Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think. + +Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest +in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and +then I remember once I went to Palm Beach. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then? + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became +your first wife, Dorothy Pierson? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the +daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an +Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother +and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was +the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an +American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I +fell in love with each other and got married. + +Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young. + +Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York. + +Mr. JENNER. In New York City? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later. + +Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce +took place--well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never +married her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to +marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back +to Mexico. + +Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in +Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She had two sons? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys. + +Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorothy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the +16th of June 1943? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are +very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some +place. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas +Day, was it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. 1943? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York +City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed +book? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did +you do some painting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file +of paintings in Mexico. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street. + +Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were +original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have +some. + +Mr. JENNER. They are water colors? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military +installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican +types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make +a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old +Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went +together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple +of days with no roads, and finally one evening---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time. + +Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the +middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we +walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We +left the car right there. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him +again; and I hope to see him. + +Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still +interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various +directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and +study geology and petroleum engineering. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice +Institute, and University of Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in +that neighborhood? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you +not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see--bohemian and trying to make a +buck, as you might call it. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I +actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did +not have--which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, +as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete +mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. +It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are +very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. +And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, +and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. +And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided +to go---- + +Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that +a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have +the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept +on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was +wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone +in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he +was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice--of all my +friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try +to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the +basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote +some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what +happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who +are very wealthy. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas---- + +Mr. JENNER. 1944. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of +Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum +geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort +and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum +geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my +studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in +American schools. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you +serve as an instructor---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In French. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some +additional money. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of +Texas--all of your studies? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the +University of Texas, did you enter into business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the +Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But +eventually fought with the vice president. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with +the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual +agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, +and a close friend, that I should resign and also---- + +Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. + +Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back +to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I +would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you +see. + +It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated +in Venezuela. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in +Venezuela? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish +passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed +a very short time, and went to Texas again. + +Mr. JENNER. What town? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to +be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying +to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. +And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the +chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee. + +Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is +he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak. + +Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two +of you assisting the chairman? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I +was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group +of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones +actually working for the committee. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting +organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in +Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky +Mountains. It still is. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not +in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But +he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the +Standard Oil of California. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is he? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from +California who sold oil well pumps. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the +various oil companies? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field, +is that correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering +data for the entire field? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to +various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body +in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each +well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was +our main job, you know. + +Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in +that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut +down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond +drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became +very, very successful. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3-1/2 +years, something like that. 3 years, maybe. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did +you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very +pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness +of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. +But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to +Colorado--without being married. + +Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington. + +But I didn't know him. + +Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful +girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we +fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine +an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the +record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a +wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to +Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time. +She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness. + +And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last +boomtown in America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. +We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. +It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life. + +Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to +Aspen, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little +cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. +But then I became chairman. + +Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant +president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the +president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time. I would say--I didn't +take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen. + +But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen. + +Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field. + +Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the +weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my +time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we +decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. +They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee. + +Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to +break it up, didn't you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over +at Aspen, and not being---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly. + +Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it +I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got +together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, +we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the +Engineering Committee." + +I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was about when? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are +interested in my character--is that it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating +oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it +was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United +States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting. + +Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the +end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the +statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I +don't think I ever had any complaint against me. + +Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field +was being developed. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a +statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, +and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, +and your employers questioned it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, +attitude with respect to keeping expenses? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small +there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned +me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But +I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, +more or less, at the same level, maybe lower. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did +you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. The date is not clear to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, this may refresh your recollection. + +Had you become an American citizen in the meantime? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that on the 11th of July 1949 at Denver? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Denver, Colo. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your employment with the Rangely Oil Field Committee +terminated after you became a citizen, did it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection--it occurred about +6 months later? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When your employment in the Rangely Oil Field Committee +terminated, what did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I realized that I could not remain married +to Phyllis, because she was a girl of--who needed money, who needed a +good way of life, needed luxury--she was used to luxury. And I asked +her to go back to her parents, to New York, and that I will try to make +a success out of--I decided to go on my own as a consultant--that I +should try to make a success out of the consulting business. + +But I just should do it by myself, without her being present. And so I +moved to Denver, Colo., gave up that establishment in Aspen, and got +some help from my friends, and with very little money I started my own +consulting firm. + +Mr. JENNER. In Denver? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in Denver. + +Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, did the--was the marriage to Phyllis +Washington terminated? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; either in the meantime or just right at that +time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that by her suit? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; by my suit. + +Mr. JENNER. You filed the suit? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you file that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the court in Denver. She was gone. I returned +in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things. + +Mr. JENNER. You returned to New York City? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to see if we could patch up things. We +became very good friends with the other side of her family, the +Wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of +mine. Bill Wasserman is a banker in New York, used to be ambassador +to Australia during the Roosevelt administration, I think--or to New +Zealand. + +And, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of +her--because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in Europe, they had +also their own difficulties. + +Mr. JENNER. Their own marital difficulties? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they decided we better forget about this +marriage. We remained very fond of each other. But we finally came to +an agreement to have a divorce. And I filed a suit for divorce. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that decree entered? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that I do not remember. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you get your divorce decree from Phyllis +Washington? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a court in Denver, Colo., but I do not recall +the date. + +Mr. JENNER. 1949 or 1950? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something around that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of that marriage? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No children. We were married in Grand Junction, +Colo. And the divorce was entered--the reason was desertion, which was +actually true, because she did not come back to me. She stayed in New +York, or eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an +alcoholic--poor girl. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary +consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil +company in Denver. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his +office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to +start on your own. + +But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing +evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this +will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night +I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, +by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am +just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil +business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, +which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my ex-nephew, +Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had +visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had +done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma. + +I said, "Eddie, how about it?" + +He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time. + +And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch." + +Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner +and Beane." + +We formed a limited partnership together. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so--1950. + +Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years. + +Mr. JENNER. About 2 years? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a +pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the +drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money. + +Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you the field work? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York, +a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver. + +Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second +well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, +because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and +they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first +venture--suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because +Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in +Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your +field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that +correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in +Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we +paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, +our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally +split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. +He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to +make millions. + +My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and +eventually build up some production. + +On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought +the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another +company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a +well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead +of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if +they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual +story. + +I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to +find something less risky. + +He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was +true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that. + +Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite +a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too. + +Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What year? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was +the center of the small size independent operators at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I +married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing. + +Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the +next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch. + +(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED + + +The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. On the record. + +Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back +a minute to your father. + +You left there about 1931 or 1932? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times. + +Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular +reference to World War II? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went +to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to +the United States at the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this +was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to +America, and he did not take advantage of it. + +Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you +know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too +old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the +German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he +happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into +hiding. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the +Russians invaded Poland? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other +side? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of +the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence +of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and +the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made +an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin +could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to +a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns. + +Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they they are willing to +go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German +Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of +Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an +enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those +Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the +other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to +Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with +the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist----exceedingly +strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the +sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany +and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we +know--some air raid hit that place where he lived. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old +castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going +to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the +time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go +and see the place where he was buried. + +Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters +through some German friends who stayed there with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he +had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him +during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before +Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, +"George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, +but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free +and nobody is bothering me." + +It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some +positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too +clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not +pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we +went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in +1952--because I was not married--we still had the partnership. I was +visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him +I met my next wife, my last wife. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples. + +Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school +at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That +was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 +years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. +And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, +Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and +also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many +years. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end +of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely +Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler. + +So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and +so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should +marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all +right--obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. +Butler was my best man at the wedding. + +Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler. + +There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember +who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of +ushers. So we got married. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy. + +Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested +in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is +interested---- + +Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi. + +Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her +with that nickname--Didi. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her +graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to +Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to +live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to +take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident +physician---- + +Mr. JENNER. In what hospital? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. Baylor University? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in +Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor +Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very +often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my +partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity +between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi. + +Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. +And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from +such a prominent family. + +Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, +"George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts." + +She had had nervous breakdowns. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is +very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous +breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is +interesting for you, all those details. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she +came to Dallas with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an +apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm +outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei, +and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very +difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name. + +Mr. JENNER. When were those children born? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference--in 1953 and 1954. + +Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, +you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social +problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. +He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such +unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership +and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it +out and divided the proceeds. + +Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the +oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was +staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to +Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, +according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much +better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene. + +Mr. JENNER. Why is that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center +of things than just in a small hick town, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. You---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking +this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from +Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by +the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we +formed a partnership just about the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's +uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle--much younger than his--than her mother, +but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed +friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to +form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with +the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do +the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the +business in Philadelphia. + +We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling +venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some +time. + +Mr. JENNER. What field? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field +belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in +the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that. + +But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide +any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small +things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together. + +Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were +divorced? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We +were married for 5 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our +children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic +nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet. + +Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for +Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary +chairman. + +Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this +foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, +because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It +started with very little--we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now +it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last +year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public +subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and +we got $25,000. + +Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960. + +By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever +disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that +we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic +affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a +marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. +She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little +girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is +in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, +she is a trustee of Temple University. + +But her husband, Dr. Denton---- + +Mr. JENNER. She remarried? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his full name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated +our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of +pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of +Pennsylvania. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some +litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with +respect to some trust? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund. + +Mr. JENNER. Established for whom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had +to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support +of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. +She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, +because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to +accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side +to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far +away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered +constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the +children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a +long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my +ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund. + +Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son. + +Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. +Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the +children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was +a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between +my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in +regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you. + +Mr. JENNER. No--I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives +in Philadelphia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more +or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She +was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation +which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national +foundation. + +She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked +to resign, or resigned herself--I don't know for sure--the other +trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to +resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends +another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think +which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the +administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she +is running this foundation as an administrator. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of +difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live +with me, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. The daughter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living +in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just +the opposite--that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of +the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation +last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of +various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier +with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a +tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we +went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the +middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as +they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the +condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I +get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is +also under psychiatric treatment. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric +treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for +the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, +because they are healthy, and she is not. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some +children born of her present marriage? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife +filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. She commenced it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get +a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The +lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell +our house and settle our accounts. + +Mr. JENNER. Property? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair +for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story +about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did +you remain in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting +work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the +foreign end of this business. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In +1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals +connected with Sinclair Oil Company. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We +were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956. + +Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking +more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. +Sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for +him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some +oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign +jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in +connection with those. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign +work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion +of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was +in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France--I may have forgotten +with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some +work right there in Dallas--examined the geological work and made +suggestions. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually---- + +Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times. + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba--I traveled in Cuba before Castro, +during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed +the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to +promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost +owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the +Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, +and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his +office--that type of job that I had from time to time. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana---- + +Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you +were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and +development for what group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan +Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. +in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I +may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all +consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from Texas or from New +York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well +known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to +a job in Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the +Yugoslav Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in +Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia +and help them develop oil resources under the--I don't know--some kind +of government deal. Under this---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--George Mitchell. + +Mr. JENNER. And his wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist. +In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did +pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for +somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found +George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there. + +Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married. + +Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C. + +The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA +paid my salary. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere +around February of 1957, wasn't it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 +months, and I returned in October. + +Mr. JENNER. 1957? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made--quite a +considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them +went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went +to the Bureau of Mines here. + +Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked +me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because +I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I +noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking +me--after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. +One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, +George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he +is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia." + +Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that +correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in +Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia +for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas +firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. +Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a +couple of weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a +divorce. + +Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh +Hotel in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this +separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living +at the Stoneleigh Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you +about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was +Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told +me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry +her. A very charming fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before +you were married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because +we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We +both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we +wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I +remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are +married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it +in the name of---- + +Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former +husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the +States they used the name of Le Gon. + +Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name +is Jeanne, is it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the +Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for +awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We +took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, +her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter +came to live with us. She came from France to live with us. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your +daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in +Arizona, because her mother---- + +Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy +Tilton III. Anyway---- + +Mr. JENNER. She lives where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, +Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up +and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her +husband, Mr. Clark. + +Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left +her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European +way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my +daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We +call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, +it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent +practically all her childhood there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, +as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt +her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one? + +Mr. JENNER. To the adoption? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that +adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived +away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the +daughter. + +I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually +both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra +because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person +to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away +from her. We had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a +custody case. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took +Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. +And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided +that she should be with us. + +Mr. JENNER. When was this? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with +the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my +ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel. +Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a +television producer. + +Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom +our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not +married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not +married. I could not offer her a home--although I wanted her to be with +me. + +And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France." + +And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I +contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a +half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on. + +That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us. + +Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. After you were married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some +time. + +And, finally, she eloped from school---- + +Mr. JENNER. From what school? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of +Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now. + +Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee +Taylor. + +Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody. + +Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a +divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, +is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor. + +Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out +what is happening to the child. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. +Taylor? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, +takes care of the little boy right now. + +Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study---- + +Mr. JENNER. What school is that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the +situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get +occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere +in New York right now. + +Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch +with her right now. + +The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a +hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as +some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now. + +Mr. JENNER. How old is she now? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then. + +While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present +wife's daughter. + +What is her name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as +my wife's. + +Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor. + +My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous +admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name +after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but +that is beside the point. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name---- + +Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to +Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to +pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon. + +Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana +Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton. + +Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, +from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't +know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft +Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of +Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To +make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also +he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them. + +Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there. + +Mr. JENNER. What is---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department. + +Mr. JENNER. In Alaska? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name. + +Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to +make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and +they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond +of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their +name, and that was by mutual agreement. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, +Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, +they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le +Gon? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they +decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed +their name to Le Gon. + +I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying +that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known +designer, she has a name practically as a trademark. + +Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I +was not particularly---- + +Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian +background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in +China, and she was born in China and lived there. + +Mr. JENNER. Harbin? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She +came to the United States the same year I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New +York, and didn't know each other--right next door. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the +present time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her +husband. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And January 1964? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in +Alaska? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in +Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place--in +both places. + +Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children. + +Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more +about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is +of ultra conservative tendencies politically. + +Mr. JENNER. Please explain that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 +percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether +he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have +Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration +for him. + +I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect +votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, +Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in +April 1956? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date +clearly in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a +drinker? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much. + +Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of +all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, +a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close +to it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many +times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I +have drunk more than I should. + +Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at +dates. + +But I think it is 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. +That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, +that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout +all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and +to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would +review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of +mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we +did it. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead. + +Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted +myself. + +At this point, tell me your political philosophies. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I +voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De +Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, +because I believe in freedom. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom +of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of +criticizing something which I think is not democratic. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a +Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if +somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with +fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I +got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics +very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that +subject. But I consider the other person's point of view. + +If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his +business. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some +good characteristics in communism. + +Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that +view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this +country, that there are some good qualities in communism. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your +concept of communism? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from +the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and +works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation +it may be a solution. + +Mr. JENNER. A temporary one? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes--which eventually, and I +believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in +certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way +of life. + +Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I +would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like +business to be free. But---- + +Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to +persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, +you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development +communism is not good? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that about it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. + +Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and +Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which +expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today. + +It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which +says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich +countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for +ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies--could +exist eventually. + +But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the +poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United +States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, +Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are +producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop +the tools to produce industrial goods. + +While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in +the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. +You see what I mean? + +Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, +which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than +they can produce. Now, what can save those countries? + +Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, +or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So +that is something to think about and worthwhile reading. + +Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy +is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual +freedom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my +life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in +Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was +attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor +Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example +of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of +democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that +the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the +President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made +an impression on them. A few examples like that. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates +with the Communists? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk +to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people +active politically--they were not big shots. + +With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you +can discuss. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any +side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in +favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to +communism? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who +does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world +attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? +A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in +free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, +"George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are +not for freedom." + +Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites +are not for freedom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike +it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left +with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction. + +For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in +my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe +in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an +international force?" + +I said, "No." + +He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for." + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and +sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have +insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred +against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it +yourself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection +with the International Cooperation Administration? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I +developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to +use Yugoslav workers and American equipment. + +Mr. JENNER. What workers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very +inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using +American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, +among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, +Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. +So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote +the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be +a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, +using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic +countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see. + +And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility +of forming such a venture. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia +for the International---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you then married? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. +Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to +Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, +in the summer? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married +at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can +correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy +with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I +expressed my point of view pretty well. + +Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All right. + +John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract +for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav +labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic +countries--especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. +But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send +Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all +the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And +they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not +use American equipment? + +I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that +type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see +the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia +when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And +I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable +in Washington?" + +And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea." + +It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian +venture--form a corporation. + +I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in +the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project. + +I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, +"George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do +business with those damned Communists." + +So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of +that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany +and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs. + +Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, +or 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. +The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I +have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and +Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all +over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And +this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they +practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the +stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African +countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is +Ghana. + +And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found +out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, +indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And +eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still +are supposed to have it, this concession. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a +philatelist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Explain that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the +philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to +Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist. + +Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De +Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, +because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I +went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went +as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business +you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. +Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all +those countries, as far as concessions go. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. +have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political +with a capital P. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with +Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only +affiliation they have with him. + +Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects +whatsoever? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have +explained? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business. + +Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International +Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had +no political, capital P, implications whatsoever? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business. + +Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool +Corp., that was strictly business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. No politics involved? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. + +Mr. JENNER. Representing---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never. + +Mr. JENNER. Any government? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times. + +Mr. JENNER. Any government? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I could take what you call the fifth +amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to. + +Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time +you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you +feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel +uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been +an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, +except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish +Army--$5 a month. + +Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian +Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations. + +Mr. JENNER. Subject to that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign +government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at +any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital +P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or +a government or even a group against a government? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of +any political group. + +Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather +colorful life have been your personal views? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, +with a capital P, on behalf of any group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like +in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the +discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I +say what I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any +kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in +anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian +venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in +Europe, traveled around Europe. + +We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you +came here in May of 1938. + +I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you +started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into +Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your +own words, how it came about, and what you did. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it +is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick +MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we +were both young men in Mexico. + +And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country +mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and +useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of +the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the +Conquistadors. + +You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, +and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are +all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I +started collecting through the years--I started collecting information +on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico. + +But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the +time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of +my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all +that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away +from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to +follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central +America, and possibly all the way to South America. + +And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical +therapy for your mental problems. + +And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me +that that is something we should do. + +We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the +ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. What ranch? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a +friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the +Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little +town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras. + +There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name +is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half +Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras. + +By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, +a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their +house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance +call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close +friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to +take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in +the outdoor life. + +And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 +kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very +difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way +to the Panama Canal. + +Mr. JENNER. All the way to where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the +longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole +of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, +and Panama. + +And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our +mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of +the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to +nature for a whole year. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico +City. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that +is interesting. This is completely a different incident. + +I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf +of---- + +Mr. JENNER. Just a minute. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year. + +Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. November, I believe. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other +occasion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as +well complete it. Tell us about that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas +Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract +with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, +this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border. + +Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in +jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is +the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big +Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs, +asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and +try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in +Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government. + +Mr. JENNER. You say "we." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me. + +Mr. JENNER. Your present wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear +you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960--one or the +other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this +particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you +call it, was this particular---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is +the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos +of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with +Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there. + +By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some +financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican +Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through +my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I +knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any +particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, +and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the +most interesting jobs I ever had. + +And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were +technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the +night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, +why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?" + +I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to +meet the character." + +He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to +learn something from him. + +So I said, "All right, I will go with you." + +And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people +at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very +peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern +people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public +with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them. + +Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she +says, "I better go instead of you." + +Mr. JENNER. Your wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the +Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for +the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a +Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport. + +It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the +Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that +mess. + +Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After +that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will +introduce you to Mikoyan." + +And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, +Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because +it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that +security officers without being detected--because she was right there +in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she +says, "I am from Texas." + +"What do you mean from Texas?" + +She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and +visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner." + +And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see +you." + +So here was the Mikoyan incident. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan +incident? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business +reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy +buddy with Mikoyan. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the +Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of +Pigs invasion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything +about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it--except I remember we +arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, +we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have +to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with +us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We +did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails. + +Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with +us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. +That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around +the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and +to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white +boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me. + +And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys." + +The consulate--we received our mail through the American consulate. + +Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not +Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through +the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul +there--could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry +my shotgun there. + +He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you." + +And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the +road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central +American countries? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our +way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples. + +Mr. JENNER. Samples of what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to +have---- + +Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff +we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry +150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. +It is a manuscript I have--600 pages--day for day description of +our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The +publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a +publisher in France, and they may publish it. + +Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more +color it might be salable. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by +day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will +make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of +our trip, day by day. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to +record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I +had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever +been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever +visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked +many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here +with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends +in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about +1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting +to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of +our trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only +what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to +civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big +cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how +we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They +thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. +All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top +of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people +that we had money with us--we did carry money with us. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At +the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. +Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa +Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles +written about our trip in the local papers. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central +America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a +desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of +my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason. + +Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested +at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help +seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war +in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book. + +But I had nothing to do with it. + +Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to +Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of +territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not +many people can do it, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, +and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many +times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived +in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going +to visit this old man, a friend of my father's. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to +be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry +in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I +discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went +as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost +like his son. + +We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died +very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, +taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian +Government at the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in +which you are now engaged? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the +first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the +Minister of Finance--that they are interested in my project, which the +project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have +anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working +and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the +contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that +contract. + +Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business. + +Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups +are you a member? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is +something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not +a member--I am not interested. I am too busy. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a group. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them +political or otherwise, of which you have been a member. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum +Club political? + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum +Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, +because I don't live there any more. + +I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists. + +I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think +my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now. + +I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists. + +I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a +registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it. + +Purely professional organizations. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you +have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member +of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the +American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even +knew it existed. + +You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not +interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, +except when I want to improve something in our way of life. + +Mr. JENNER. In our own way. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. +But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, +because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself. + +Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in +improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on +your part? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to +Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch +very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the +Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in +Washington when I want to have something done about something. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you land? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship +directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La. + +Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles. + +And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of +Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and +Jim Savage, engineer. + +Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment +in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to +live--6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our +trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife +started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all +the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time +I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing +consulting work, in Dallas. + +Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those +dates, because you have them written down, and I don't. + +So I cannot vouch for some of the dates. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head +at the moment. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large +manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with +me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip +with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her +profession of designer. + +So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she +started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in +Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you +do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you +use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in +Dallas at or along about that time. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife +and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This +is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same +type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia +with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens. + +Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to +the right, but all within the limits of true democracy. + +One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is +Ilya Mamantov. + +I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them. + +He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society +group, because he works for a large company. + +Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. +Voshinin. What is his first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to +her. + +Mr. JENNER. The Clarks? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Max Clark? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali. + +Mr. JENNER. Gali is of Russian derivation? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper +society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families +better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, +who is a lawyer, as you know. + +Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you +don't pronounce correctly her name. + +Mr. JENNER. That may well be. + +Paul Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in +business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and +years. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind. + +Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said +it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk. + +You are acquainted with her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people +forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort +Worth, Irving area. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. +Thomas Ray. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Which one? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the +advertising business. + +Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is their history? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is---- + +Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or +brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she +speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of +Russian parentage. + +Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think +I know it. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the +son. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them. + +Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have +named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the +Russian community? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others. + +Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the +Oswalds. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the +Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. +And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of +Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows +the others. Maybe he does. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the +Russian priest. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox +priest there. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri. + +Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek +Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor +of Spanish at SMU. + +Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or +sects or groups, in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek +Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not +tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely +Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The +one that Father Dimitri is the head of--he is an American and quite a +large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services +are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also. + +Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are +segregated into two groups. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us +call it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other +group. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does. + +Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into +Dallas, through these church groups? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time--I don't know what your +propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when +you were in Dallas, were you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to +the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, +the old guard church. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I +got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa +now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to +South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa. + +Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during +the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not +call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized +religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group +there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is +amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a +little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as I said, to +sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, +if that is the answer. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to +convert people--constantly they push to convert people. But I go +occasionally--on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to +see the group, because I like many of those people. + +Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you +have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest +or belief in communism? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Communists are---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to +stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church +is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the +schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe +one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox +denomination. + +Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know +for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with +others? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand +for a year to be in the jungle. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, +Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient +person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in +your social habits. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they +mean? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people. + +Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's +reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their +boredom. Sometimes life is very boring. + +Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative +questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so. + +Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a +little more serious-minded? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It certainly has been suggested. + +Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't +believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as +well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, +of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, +what kind of a community it was. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand. + +Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, +and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of +which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw +a good deal of them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It +is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of +Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly +in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 +families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a +very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with +a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along +very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that. + +I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than +coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own +words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to +the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962--without involving them +now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided +by classes. You see what I mean? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I don't. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and +a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a +question of money as a question of good education, and of background. +And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course, +comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an +excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom +we were very close. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is---- + +Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil. + +Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had +many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business. + +Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people +in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I +know his wife better. + +Mr. JENNER. Is his wife also a Russian emigre? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and +Armenian, extraction. + +Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him +through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, +another one who lived there--Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina. + +Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of +the ballerina. + +Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really +hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there +are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the +Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the +old palaces from the czarist days. + +Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am +glad that you made such a distinction there. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to +believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian +wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some +connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian +wife out of Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might +believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils +that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do +something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever +know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one. + +Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most +leftest of them all. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do not---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not. +But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, +because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had +visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, +as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there +for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, +and then returned back to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us +assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right +now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally +happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the +community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there +was a Russian couple? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally. + +Mr. JENNER. Curious? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your wife? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious +would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first +in Dallas--he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he +is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to +convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on. + +Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become +acquainted throughout the community? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia, +from the Soviet Union, you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They +would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards +they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them +would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is +a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't +there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I +will put it this way: When did you first hear---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a +close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there +is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them +already--Max Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read +about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the +exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper, +maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American +who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet +Union? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything +about them before. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when +this conversation took place. + +Mr. JENNER. When did it take place? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the +summer of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe +said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them--I +don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about +them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent +family--supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet +Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George +Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an +ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that. + +Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted +your recollections as to the conversation right at that point? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember +that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a +woman she is. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was +pretty? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because--but it is +nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster. + +Mr. JENNER. You have---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better +looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. +You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But +anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who +were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet +Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women +like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory. + +Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit +vague on that. + +I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we +met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so +many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure +how I first met them. + +Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who +gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George +Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali +Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see. + +And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire +poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth. + +I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, +Colonel Orlov. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a +Russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from +Russia. + +And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in +Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two +of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, +and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there. + +Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5 +o'clock. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov. + +Mr. JENNER. She answered the door. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we +are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a +little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think +he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her +especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not +particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing +one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, +horrible surroundings. + +Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that +she knew substantially no English? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew +maybe--I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the +store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and +'no'." That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I +remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little +shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very +poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not +paved. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how +she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like +that--completely meaningless conversation. + +And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand +what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your +husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to +sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry +or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection. + +And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little +while, Oswald, Lee appeared. + +Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before. + +Mr. JENNER. And he came in? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in. + +Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I +want to see how you are getting along." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to +Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign +accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable +fluency in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and +education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the +language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than +English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the +first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that +he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in +Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of +Minsk. He got me curious, you know. + +But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him +or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was +a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, +and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see +you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she +needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not +been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure. + +Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given +to the child? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly +side? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, +bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an +undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby +looked like Khrushchev. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the +story in your own words. + +Now, you had this visit, and you returned home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we +drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that +couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also +struck me as a very sympathetic fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your +first impression. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression +remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had +a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something +charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the +guy--that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble--with me he was +very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, +absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was +just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think +he liked me very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said. + +Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the +relations between Marina and Lee, I assume? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple--that they +were not getting along, right away. + +Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there. +You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the +couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was +not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving +husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and +so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in +talking to me than to her. That type of attitude. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with +him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially +when you asked something about him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main +characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in +Marina. And she remained quite often in the background. + +Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and +he would do the talking. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when +we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, +and Marina away from him later--you know that? + +Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself, +did you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things +develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, +from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very +often. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very +often. Maybe you didn't. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I +do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife +went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that +any more--to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought +her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take +her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw +Marina. Maybe a few days later. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the +Mellers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with +them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived +somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my +daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And +since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, +but about the same age--I don't remember how it happened, but either I +or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very +vague in my mind, what happened there. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George +Bouhe brought Marina to your home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some +dental care? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. That is located where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the +Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the +man who founded it. + +Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental +care gratis, or almost for nothing. + +George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way. + +Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either +for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything. + +Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time +losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at +the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was +working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker. + +Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company +was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that +was his version. Maybe he was fired. + +Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact? + +Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical +care? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina +where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such +injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She +didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She +is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. +Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And +what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, +did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or +the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life +as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. +That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind--you see what I +mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it +any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not +treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when +she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember +what her father's profession was. + +One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government +official, something like that--colonel or something like that. That I +remember she told me. + +And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and +graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, +which I also remember, in Minsk--the River Svisloch, which crosses the +whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and +in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, +and that is where the foreigners lived. + +She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. +And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met--I +remember they met at some dance--I think he was ill, something like +that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is +something I have a vague recollection of--that she took care of him, +and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she +said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she +desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in +that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream. + +It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of +apartments rather than of people. + +She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as +things go on. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him--I was +trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what +are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary +you get, what amusements you get. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of +$60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost +all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost +nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was +rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous. +Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between +them all the time--always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina +always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the +prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he +liked the conditions in Russia more than she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had +a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people +were interested in him, you see. That very often--he worked in a TV +factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the +United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was +that type of an individual who needed attention. + +Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than +he did--as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It +was a livable way of life. + +Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there +than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what +happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think +that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was +getting more and more things from people--people like the Clarks, like +ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so +on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses. + +Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses. + +When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded +with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in +Fort Worth and Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I +remember. She had a baby carriage. + +I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things +like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you say you carried her out and took her to the +Mellers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we +met them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did +you do it? + +That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George +Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an +introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there. +And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I +don't remember the name of the person who was there--some Texas lady +whom George Bouhe knew. + +And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even +spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is +probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to +Mr. Ballen's office--he has a reproduction business, a very large one +in Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Reproduction? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service. +When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they +print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large +business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in +Denver, Colorado. + +I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember +that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting. + +I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee +Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting +fellow." + +Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same +time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of +it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and +the baby? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already +moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall +who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary +Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both +drove to Fort Worth. + +I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no +car, they have no money--help them to move." + +I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for +a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this +address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He +had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember +that. + +Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them. + +Mr. JENNER. When was this? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. September of 1962? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time--about September. + +A little before that, I think, because in September we started the +campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of +them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that +this campaign started. + +Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, +they had already moved to Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had +moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had +returned back to her husband. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away +from her husband. Tell us how that occurred. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime. George Bouhe became completely +disgusted with Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because--I don't know exactly why--because he +liked Marina very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Bouhe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe--he is an elderly man. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To +him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed +help. And he really gave her money. He would give her $30, $40, I +think, all at once. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe +50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in +very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I +gave her even 50 cents. + +Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the +house. + +Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the +house to eat. + +Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away? + +Mr. JENNER. And why. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe started telling me that +"George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was +crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous." + +And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And +Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on. + +George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak +Cliff, because I didn't move them--it was my daughter who moved them, I +think. + +So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, +and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, +"Listen, you cannot do things like this." + +Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am +not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a +little later. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you +observed that she had a black eye? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so +forth. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it +was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been +beating me", but she said "I fight him back also." + +So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you." + +And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him." + +Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, there has to be something. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know. + +I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away +from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it +happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had +them in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do +things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the +few times that he was a little bit uppity with me. + +And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This +is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do +that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection. + +Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's +place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to +take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take +her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous +arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe +I called them. I don't remember exactly. + +Anyway, they were ready to receive her. + +And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her +dresses and I will break all the baby things." + +And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining +to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love +your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some +time, you better behave." + +I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police." + +I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other +people's affairs, after all. + +Well, he said, "I will get even with you." + +I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I +said, "I am going to take Marina anyway." + +So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things +out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was +small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual. + +After a little while he helped me to carry the things out. He +completely changed his mind. + +Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to +carry things. And we cleaned that house completely. + +We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded--everything was taken +out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other +part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days +later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and +said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina +is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous +character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening +Marina on the telephone." + +Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George +Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to +know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this +time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know +where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where +Marina is. + +Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our +apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the +Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is +to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the +telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was +very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the +fellow to do. + +I repeat again--I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And +this is--if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take +my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am +surprised that he didn't do something worse. + +I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a +dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else. + +Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now--Marina moved +to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her, +and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house--the name you +mentioned here before--a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas +something. + +Mr. JENNER. Ray? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall +that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs. +Ford to the house of the Rays. + +What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house. + +Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had +already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am +not 100 percent sure. + +I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little +bit later. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were +having? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her? + +The difficulties were this: She was--just incompatibility. They were +annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had +many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the +time--"Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why +don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, +and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the +time. Poor guy was going out of his mind. + +Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor +guy, he is doing his best. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I +mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her +physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just +once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather +crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative +strangers, as we were. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on +the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the +discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and +on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She--they +were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that +impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was +Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the +United States. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a definite---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not +recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me +that--that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him +go to the--back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport. +And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally +took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was +not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that +illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United +States Embassy. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you +that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to +the United States, and had taken some steps to do so? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell +you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him +to do so? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time +also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new +fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him. +And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing +again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back +to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear +to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly +interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to +leave. That I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not +interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED + +The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on +April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. +Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. +Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. + + +(Having been previously duly sworn.) + +Mr. JENNER. On the record. + +Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then +recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandra, +then Mrs. Gary Taylor. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with +them, but never lived with them, as far as I know. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, +Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything +to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had +to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to +Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one +day. But I could not swear to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another +respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962, +"My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with +me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained +that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in +Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told +me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the +YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression +that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying +that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that +on my daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your +daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe +they did not. I just do not recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my +mind--completely--after the last time we saw them. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot +the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them. + +May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we +met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max +Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is +safe for us to help Oswald?" + +Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to +Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right +there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, +you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that +he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was +in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security +at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe +or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You +never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant. +But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were +alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am +not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to +have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on +behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia--G. Walter +Moore. He is a Government man--either FBI or Central Intelligence. A +very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was +some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI +in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government +man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my +stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there. +And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time +to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, because I think +he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to +our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting +person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident +occurred. + +Mr. JENNER. Which book? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one--the travelogue. One day we left +for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages, +some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip +and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, +supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1" +after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages, +No. 3, and so on and so forth. + +I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She +said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for +a while. + +In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of +a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in +my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took +photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just +could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went +to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us. +Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you +know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you +consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we +haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody +who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I +possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who +it was. And it is still a mystery to me. + +So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter +Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My +recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of +them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with +him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so +forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of +your lives, you see. This is one point. + +The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in +Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they +represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, +and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As +I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The +others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor +Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't +you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina +Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for +not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise +that question. But why didn't they want to meet them? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did +not want to meet them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew +something about Oswald, of some connection. + +Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any +chances. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that. + +Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with +them. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were +just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so +secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of +meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, +you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience +and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you +have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater +or lesser degree with a great variety of people. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether +Oswald was an agent of anybody? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am +I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you +concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you +why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too +outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were +an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea. + +Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very +freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They +explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of +a man. + +Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this +reasoning of yours. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was +a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. +All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was +rather sincere. + +Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were +shallow and surface? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. + +Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under +scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views +on the subject? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly +poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand +even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and +just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to +display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to +impress one. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used +them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh +at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, +for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping +for something. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of +reliability--that is, whether our Government would entrust him with +something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of +imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under +pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would +be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual, +mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What +government would give him any confidential work? No government would. +Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type. + +Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on +that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, unstability--his life is an example of +his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another, +and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, +tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of +adventure--like some other people would do in the United States, a new +job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome +deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was +discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is, +assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his +jobs. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion +on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth, +and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my +life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for +him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the +Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need +a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea. + +Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it +would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a +career in the Marines. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked +it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his +jobs, you see, but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at +them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to +evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as +to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was +reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack +of control of himself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took +his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and +his threats to his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the hell out of her. I +think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to +my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually +precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that? +Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But +now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her, +that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that +is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor +woman. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak +Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building. + +Mr. JENNER. Mercedes? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this +man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation +or situation. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason +that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He +would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and +a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend +people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And +he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is +just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that a moment. It gradually +developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their +curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at +the outset. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest +in him waned? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the fear? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual, +like George Bouhe--he was actually physically afraid of him. + +Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid +of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said, +"Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are." + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built, +athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally, +but George Bouhe was. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your +personality as I observe you testifying. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark +naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an +athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him, +and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was rude? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his +wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they +invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said, +"Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer +of that type. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too +much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man. + +Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively +uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service +record. What was your reaction to that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was +Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while. + +Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was +in Marina and not in Lee Oswald? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly +important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would +take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other +gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention +might be drawn to him and away from her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not---- + +Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to +think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember +any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an +egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but +I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any +particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina +would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for +Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you +about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did +you regard that as unusual? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told +Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, +and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are +going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child +and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it." +We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and +her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, +and they obviously still have those records. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap +phonograph, to play the records. + +Mr. JENNER. You gave them records? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records. + +Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not---- + +Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that +my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do. +But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee +would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if +he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people +gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see--she +would take anything from 5¢ up to anything. And the more the better. +But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude. +That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was +not a beggar, not a sponger. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him +developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the +Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a +greater or lesser degree? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. +It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could +not succeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did +you acquire this feeling? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human +nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You +see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks, +because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house +that the Clarks have--very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so +forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a +refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that, +like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new +convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just +to say so. But you can feel that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him +unintentionally with that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe--my impression +of him is that he is a direct man. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina +away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from +Oswald. That is a fact. + +Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away +from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take +Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with +George Bouhe--to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make +another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my +child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am +fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a +future. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina +acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English +because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I +do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember +distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife +learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part." + +Mr. JENNER. Very selfish. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in +the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that +is that she would return to Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think +that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the +United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you +never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion. +Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of +1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any +discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the +Russian Embassy to return to Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that. + +Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly +unaware of it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that, +never heard of that. What we learned, at that period--that she had her +child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong +objections. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina +doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child +christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me +that. + +Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to +Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to +make application to the Russian Embassy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in +that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where +he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know +whether he had a liking or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like +human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way +of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but +my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice +to the poor--as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, +penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show +it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean. + +Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable +attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to +think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or +not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr. +Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking terms. + +Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very +fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person. + +Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a +little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to +something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup--trying to do +something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you +like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he +said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea. +To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I +laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And +it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he +was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point +of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived +when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. +And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area. I was +interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find +in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of +conversation went on sometimes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things +in which you were interested in the community, the countryside? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic +he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly +with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking. +He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest +which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought +a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about +the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory. + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because +these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not +too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after +the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political +meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for +an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a +thing I thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points +that is really hateful in a Communist country--the meetings after +work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the +engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting +after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And +I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks +that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he +hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated. + +Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew +there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some +of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United +States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as +a political ideal and his reactions to that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. +I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And +he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that, +because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just +the sound of that word is boring to me. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to +whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and +what he thought Communism was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but +knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was +not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute +nothing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except +for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary +remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes +to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again. + +Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he +was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, +the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he +called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible +than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch +for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had +some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got +him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you +can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we +lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the +Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from +my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met +some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and +that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what +goes on there." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his +meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his +youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had +some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of +thing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could +understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in +the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, +they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to +form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them. + +Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men +and women who have come from poverty? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald +because he knew it all. + +Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly +that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we +did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After +we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the +situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent +their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. +The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina +afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because +we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which Marina was. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any +place. That was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at +Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another +time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the +whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was +dying of boredom there. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was +that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's +Eve. + +Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of +days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was +still going strong. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of +days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of +one day and did not end until well into the next day. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was +a very friendly, very good party. + +Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no +intimation of that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--on the contrary, they are very hospitable +people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is +why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, +so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing +that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred. + +Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse--his resentment. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. +She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could +lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade +her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so +bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap +her. + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away +from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial +way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he +would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our +presence--when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke +nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked +to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal +person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl. + +Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very +little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I +remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was +tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy +was always under some kind of pressure. + +Mr. JENNER. You have that impression? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure. + +Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that +party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second +one as well in a moment. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. +Thomas Ray? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as +he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian +origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know, +in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came +from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely +different type of individual--the new blood. They were younger and they +were brought up in Soviet Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--displaced +persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, +and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of +them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different +background. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's +Day. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people. + +Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them. + +Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man +with grayish hair. + +Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair. + +Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would +recognize them if I saw them. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party +who had a very lavish house? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish +house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the +party. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the +party adjourned to the Jackson's house. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left. + +Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only +once--I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I +do not recall him. + +Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't +know who she is. + +Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her. + +Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her. + +Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to +some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet +Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to +ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared. + +Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very +nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and +that she left him. That is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my +wife--having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because +they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored +to death. And she said yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason +why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came +to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, +Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which +she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few +glasses. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the +party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their +own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by +bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was +an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl, +Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that +impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that. +She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at +Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some +people in the cotton business to take care of their babies. + +Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. +She eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and +became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas +by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the +party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest +in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started +talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable +because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so +overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told +us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, +she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or +twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald +is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again. +But---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something +on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in +which people---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko +incident, because she knows a little bit better. + +Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always +happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter +who they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members +at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to +them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people +to talk to. + +Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there +ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when +they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were +afraid he might be an agent of some kind? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little +bit about. + +I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the +people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that +told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I +thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists +are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to +talk to foreigners. + +We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian +exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there +in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect, +a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she +disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us. +She was scared of us. That is the usual thing. + +So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were +scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly +affecting his desire to return to the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I +think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him +and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet +Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you +leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not +not find what I was looking for." + +Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia. +And that does not exist any place. + +Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in +this world. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not +find it any place. + +Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false +image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we +knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible +murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been +unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization, +of course, now that you are thinking back. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia, +which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not +give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before +this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of +that nature? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you +see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that +he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that +he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him. + +Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with +him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself, +superficial? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know +that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in +New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low +category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type +of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he +mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started +going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself. +That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the +Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by +myself. I started studying it all by myself." + +Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did +not understand them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother +reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they +contain. + +Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that +is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very +difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that +they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had +said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you +overhear any of that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed +that notion to you, that he might go back? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to +my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a +better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go +back to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in +Russia"--I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually +better than here. But Marina never said that. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name +of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional +geologist for Continental Oil Co.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the +possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was +broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not +permit one of its agents to be that penniless? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I +certainly have not heard that. + +Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was +something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little +trouble in getting Marina out of Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out? + +Mr. JENNER. Relatively little. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a +big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them. +But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible +for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the +country. But I have known of other examples of it being done. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the +Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember +anything about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be +left handed but I could not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the +other on it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia +with respect to hunting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussions? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have +weapons when he was in Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in +weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, +I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. +I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in +shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any +impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover +that fully in the record. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them. + +Mr. JENNER. It was the last time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them. + +Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime. + +Mr. JENNER. In April? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that +they had. + +Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous +place they used to live. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a +rabbit for Oswald's baby." + +Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter +Sunday. + +Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, +but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date +exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked +up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the +door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed +you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we +have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. +We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while +Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which +I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the +window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are +you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All +of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, +George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed +it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still +standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, +and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight +on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And +Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So +frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, +you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?" + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like +target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are +you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled +to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General +Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I +knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance +and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, +you know. + +He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question. + +Mr. JENNER. He became tense? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer +anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a +peculiar face. + +Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not +say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember +after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large +bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us +the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist +on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main +thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that +question before. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for +integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting +him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights +as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very +strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on +that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I +do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends, +you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try +to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such +that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know +what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is +another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe +is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned +from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I +had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly +his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on +that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that +that was one of the reasons. + +And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very +sincere. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, +the Walker incident. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and +Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you +opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?" + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire +rifle incident? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could +I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have +said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing +there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just +as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very +distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?" + +The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? +I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But +if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that +he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for +General Walker? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some +conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period +of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your +testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the +Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know +a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about +the weapon thereafter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation, +the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence +after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not +believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my +part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. +But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid, +bad sense of humor, she says, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says +that I like to tease people. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and +I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is +perfectly all right if somebody teases me. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian +Club? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and +the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back +from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was +a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little +bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas +you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should +do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting +people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And +also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good +eating." And that is how the idea originated. + +Mr. JENNER. And you called it what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit +based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided +to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, +and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that +the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the +dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he +should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I +guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, +very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was +that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very +important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members. + +Mr. JENNER. On the subject. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or +presented in a provocative fashion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus +there, some very provocative discussions. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home +or restaurant that you supplied the meal? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech +that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White +Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against +Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet +General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the +Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he +was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large +group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided +me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I +think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson +who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German +concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov +soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody? + +Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember +that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused +me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He +accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my +opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their +opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. +Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they +were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was +all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident +because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and +I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that +occurred. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how +to drive and I was quite surprised---- + +Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to +drive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him +"Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an +automobile?" I remember saying. + +Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, +some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't +know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina +was needling him all the time to buy an automobile. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling +him. + +Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were +present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so +vague I could not recall the exact words, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I +might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have +put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas +without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely +isolated where they were living, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of that. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect +to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual +person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly +complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time +that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see +we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, +such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as +we were, see. + +Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first +period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we +knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and +I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of +them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about +sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in +them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I +mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him +that disgusted us. + +We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more +about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see. + +Mr. JENNER. Except for this party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came +and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is +Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were +completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, +and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again +to meet Everett Glover. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that +we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. +No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one +afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing +them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a +retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife +are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people. + +Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her +that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring +them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we +brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you +know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away +from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he +immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, +and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think +he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine +Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So +it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral +left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a +while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again. + +Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think +Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. +Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to +my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to +that Christmas party did you enter their home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we +got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a +Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of +celebration but I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he +did or didn't believe in Christmas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. +Marina was naturally interested in Christmas. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to +your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw +them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and +12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say. + +Usually they were together. + +Mr. JENNER. She come alone? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his +coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident. + +Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause +before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and +stayed all day? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or +4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection +of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really +my mind was on something else, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to +the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, +and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by +bus." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better. +Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing +business, my business you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and +sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you +see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? +Goodbye." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that +better than I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, +testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came +for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as +cucumbers. George likes cucumbers." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my +wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in +charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is +possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the +doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. +I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long. + +Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you +weren't around. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife +will remember that, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember +the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because +they were hungry. + +Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that +they were fed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with +respect to his family, his mother, his brothers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember +distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the +brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that +it was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and +it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a +little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy +you see. She wouldn't help anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with +anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby +you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you +know, around the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I +have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he +didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little +he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was +not discussed you know. + +He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he +disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina +disliked the mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any +exact words, but that is the impression I had. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they +had lived also with the mother as well as the brother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met +the mother and had a reaction to her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I +assumed that you knew. + +Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will +remember more than I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect +to his brother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with +his brother. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that +there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly +inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President +Nixon? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted +to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am +concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. + +Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some +discussions with him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once +I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you +know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very +attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought +that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial +problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed +with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, +full of energy, full of good ideas." + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He +did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald +hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is +something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very +poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him +sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you +can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it +doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found +that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few +poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor +Connally? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not +familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge. + +Mr. JENNER. That is another subject. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never +discussed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the +assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable +discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that. + +Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the +subject that he had not had an honorable discharge? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I +was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this +dishonorable discharge or not. + +Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, +and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a +dishonorable discharge, after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to. + +Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia +Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party +at his home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met +them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly. + +Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection? + +Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At your home several times? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It could be? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she +was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even +this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with +Everett Glover, this couple. + +Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't +you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think +he declined that. + +Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; +at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who else was there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett +Glover's whose names I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer +Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology +who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover. + +Mr. JENNER. Magnolia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory. + +Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. He was present? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor. + +Mr. JENNER. And who else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who +lived right next door to us, to that party. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a +different party, but I have the impression that she was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Anybody else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I +forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names. + +Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth +Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. + +Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was +engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in +some sort of classical music singing. + +Mr. JENNER. Madrigal? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. JENNER. Madrigal? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in +Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent +some time singing in the madrigal. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody +who was present? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if +you mention the names I will say yes or no. + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Alex? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there. + +Mr. JENNER. That is her husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband. + +You see, we showed our movie quite a few times. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night. + +Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't +identify them. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned +to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she +would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my +recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the +Oswalds? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not +recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our +trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not +interest Oswald at all. He was not interested. + +Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor +Oswald were interested. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither one? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would +appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, +not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At +least that was my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in +Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was +quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many +answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be +asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he +definitely was the center of attention that night. + +Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, +weren't there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, +and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship +developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; +you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as +far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw +her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and +attractive person. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald +attending that party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't +remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian +at the Magnolia Research Laboratory. + +Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, +who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate +at the time. I think he became a roommate later on. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you +think might be significant that you would like to tell us about? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you +leave before the party was over? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly +have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, +Everett brought them. + +Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not your party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to +their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in +particular the former government in Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, +you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very +intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, +and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it +was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in +front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to +Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement +or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak +Russian? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an +achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned +the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise +for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well +for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I +understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing. + +Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a +conversational command of the language. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina +would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between +them or something? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There +was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially +on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the +time. + +But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked +and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not +approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let +her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail +what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante +of Marina's, you see. I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a +woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, +in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to +correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you +see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to +learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you +see. + +Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had +confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a +woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. +She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. +And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was +fighting also. She would scratch him also. + +Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time? + +I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, +rather than mine. + +There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Without being taken? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred. + +Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we +were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign. + +I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to +see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, +somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's. + +Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a +friend of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish +extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he +worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex +Kleinlerer. That is the name. + +Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I +think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it. + +Mr. JENNER. Max Clark. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I +drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't +remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It +was a friendly visit to say how are you. + +Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this +was an occasion when Marina had left her husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which +you took Marina? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking +about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken +her to the Mellers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to +the Mellers. + +Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to +why Marina was there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to +Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall. + +Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that +Marina should leave their place. + +Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming +back or something like that, something to that effect. + +Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect. + +Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory +I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is +history for me, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in +your mind also. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. +Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about. + +Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a +broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. +So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what +happened. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion +with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any +religious feeling? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember +because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious +beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have +some sort of religious belief. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a +straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any +organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly +against religion as far as I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any +impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do +not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like +that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty +and freedom of the press? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of +the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to +understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free +speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the +great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in +individual freedoms. + +Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages +you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to +appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian +refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't +appreciate it. Not all of them. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life +in the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you +see, to discuss politics. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as +far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy +lunatic. Again he is talking about politics." + +This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very +intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as +you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to +read that he had written. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, +but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day +by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through +these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, +and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for +publication. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was +nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was +just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly +written, not particularly well. + +Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember +too well. I don't remember too well what was written there. + +Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission +Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if +it has the material he showed you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks +familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It +does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he +showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235: + +"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you +see. Again another sentence I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does +not look like the same document. + +Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document. + +Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. +This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," +with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald. + +I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description +of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," +"Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," +"Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout +of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective +Farms and Schools, Vacations." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I +remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have +attracted my attention. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your +attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part +to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the +Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, +starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going +to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is +something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you +had with him before his life in Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. This whole division? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As +I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this +document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar +to me. + +I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. +You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this +and comrade that, you see? + +But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions +of life of a worker. + +Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar. + +Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings. + +Mr. JENNER. That he did not like? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like. + +Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very---- + +Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is +the paper he showed you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something. + +Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to +me because I was interested in the town itself. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction +of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its +builders." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me +because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some +of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to +this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just +described them. What happened to this street and that street? + +He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, +you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, +you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same +paper I saw. + +Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention +to the city than I paid to something else. + +Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that +wasn't as long as that. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled +compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have +already identified, the first of which is at page 304. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look +familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page +312. It is a short one. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said +before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only +about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his +life. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten. + +Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance +through those, please? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen +before, because it has the name of General Walker in it. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not +the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not +political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the +TV factory. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell +her---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action? + +Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I +have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be +closer. + +If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or +find out where she is going to be. + +(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED + +The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m. + + +Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was +that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam +Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen +says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or +January 1963 at your home. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife +and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out +socially. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens +to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because +they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused. + +I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just +refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have +anything to do with them." + +Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your +home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or +might be helpful in his obtaining a job. + +Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned +yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is, +the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time, +because--I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he +was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still +have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help +them, you see. + +I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't +know that. + +All this is later, after we had already gone. + +So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems +to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, +when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to +Dallas--that was the time. + +Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but +it was some welding outfit. + +Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, +in November? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the +child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the +Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time. + +And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved +from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she +changed domiciles. + +And finally returned to Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you +took Marina from the home? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As having occurred---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In September. + +I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a +recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day--very +sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we +started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were +very busy. + +But it might have been in October. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her +home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her +husband? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I +think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at +Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in +succession. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she +made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you +took her? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we +took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that +we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to +another, I do not know. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods--one period +that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then +another period when she left the home, herself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would +fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second +time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were +busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at +the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and +didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds. + +October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, +November, December. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to +whether she was at that February 1963 party? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name +MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I +remember her. + +Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls +when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, +and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like +your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them." + +And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over +to Anna Meller's house with the baby. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it. + +Mr. JENNER. She was there a week. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there +for the second time, you see. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all +the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded. +You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in +Haiti today. + +We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load +and unload and carry them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did. + +Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is +expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all +this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a +person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I +am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of +the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was. + +But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in +the Russian colony. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe +he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian +blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an +internationalist, American. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he +had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not +say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, +with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on +in his head. + +But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be. + +But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the +only one who remained our friend." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones---- + +Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed +themselves. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, +nothing. We just were too busy to be with them--period. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other +people now. + +As you related this morning, they began to withdraw. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we +withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them +at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them +again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all. + +Then we saw them the last time for Easter. + +I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that. + +What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always +quite hospitable. + +Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never +saw anybody else there in the house. + +I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by +kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have +talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them +because--well, let me put it this way. + +He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice +versa. + +But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved +in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of +them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has +never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left +it. So to me it doesn't mean very much. + +I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the +impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools +for having left Russia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that. + +Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the +impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked +money, and everything was measured by money? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but +you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of +them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making +scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?" + +But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him. + +Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged +to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees +called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas +belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being +interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is +a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine +of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet +Union for them, and all that sort of thing. + +It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is +in Germany. + +That is about all I know about them. + +Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on +your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember +during what period--and came quite often to the meetings. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite +a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, +where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the +Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But +I never noticed anything in particular. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that +group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president +of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it. + +Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. +Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they +invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't +remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody +in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a +theory, a Marxist theory, for himself. + +In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he +had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up +a doctrine in his head. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that +Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said +that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the +United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds +around to their house? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, +either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they +didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually +were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular +case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they +didn't want to meet them. + +I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see +them. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you +indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the +Soviet system of government? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like +that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful +coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each +other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. +Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate +atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever +invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a +top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas +invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that. + +Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period. + +Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 +months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether +it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University +of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled +"Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic +dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall +even what I had written there. + +Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based +on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is +what I would write at that time and that age. + +Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad +Russian? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite +often. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet +of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King +of Bananas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of +Bananas. At least I called him that. + +I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo +Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked +about him recently. + +Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your +own judgment of yourself? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call +me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like +to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you +pass the limit it is too much. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday +to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your +recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite +often--mainly to see my clients there. + +Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to +see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the +social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there, +a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else--I don't recall +the name. + +Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push +forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise +some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on +that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that +purpose--purely for business. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an +artist? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter. + +Mr. JENNER. Christiana? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter +were living in Dallas with you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as +an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition +to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Switzerland? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark. + +Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that +you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't +have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, +visiting some distant relatives there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called +true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions? + +Mr. JENNER. Arguments? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The +real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with +the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very +strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this +Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I +told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United +States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased +in their opinions. + +Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and +without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United +States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them +the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how +joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to +them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them +it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like +me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, +it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all +that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when +it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small +syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to +them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I +think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to +me from there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, +did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, +Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on +geological visits? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that, +and it did not materialize. + +Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at +the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960? + +Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your +passport being renewed on March 11? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. +Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to +Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana. + +I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she +remembers the dates. + +I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little +boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning +to. But my wife will remember all that. + +Mr. JENNER. So we can identify you as far as these papers are +concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white +male, 6'1" tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a +scar on your face? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, +I think you can see. + +Mr. JENNER. Right-hand cheek? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my +childhood. And this one is a new one--I got it in Yugoslavia. + +Mr. JENNER. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near +your hairline? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You suffered that in Yugoslavia? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head--had a +few stitches taken. + +Mr. JENNER. And your---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, I may say--my wife reminded me of it +today--regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast +Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941--of course, which I was not doing, +because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in +Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought +I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also +making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us. + +Mr. JENNER. Shot? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shot. And they told me to get away--we were in +a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were +hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea. +So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of +an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation--that +I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I +should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is +he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he +came to this country in the early twenties. + +Mr. JENNER. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in +the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is +located. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale. + +Mr. JENNER. Do those facts square with your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember +he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee--they were roommates. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and +was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to +this country. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; before I came back for the first time to +this country. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to +arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but +arranged my permit. + +Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate +that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit +Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his +family, and collecting material for magazine articles. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about the right time when I first saw him +after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in +Poland. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at +Yale, had he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know what year he completed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he take some additional---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't +know what year he received his Ph. D. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ph. D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can +get away from teaching. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is a Ph. D. and a professor at Dartmouth College? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College. + +Mr. JENNER. Hanover, N.H.? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian +Review, a magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't he found that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he founded that magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. And what does he teach at Dartmouth? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he is a professor of Russian culture, +Russian civilization, history. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--is this a description of him: He is a white +male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes. + +Mr. JENNER. Unlike yours, that are blue? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He is browneyed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he +didn't know that we were in Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither knew that the other was? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in +the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your brother have a mustache? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have +grown it lately. + +Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't +she--Romeyn? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons. + +Mr. JENNER. She was born April 17--December 25, 1943. We brought that +out yesterday. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Christmas Day. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone +Fleischer--Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her +stepfather--Walter Washington Stecker. + +Mr. JENNER. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted +by Walter Washington? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1958, Dominican Embassy? + +Mr. JENNER. The month of April. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think I was invited to--Dominican Embassy. +Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in Washington? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of +concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried +to contact the Dominican Ambassador--purely for business reasons--some +kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the +last--let's say the last 6 months? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in +March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian +Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between +planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right +connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would +stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next +morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican +Republic? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there. + +Mr. JENNER. When next were you there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes; +we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the +same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night. + +Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, +on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in +1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check +on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau +of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and +then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican +Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And +then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there. + +Mr. JENNER. On this present trip? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican +Republic? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember +now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody +told me--I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist +in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and +never was able to see him. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, +that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between +Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought +nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement. +I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement. + +Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the +President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I +could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him +for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, +again, it is purely speculation on our part. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I +have to pursue it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no +other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two +together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you +see--especially I remember reading in one of the papers that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign +language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get +Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one +of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife +before the assassination that he was going to get some money. + +Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started +coming--arising in my imagination. + +Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to +Marina that he was going to get some money from some source? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in +dismal poverty. + +Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you +went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you +exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just +packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from +Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States, +saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost +that card. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in +December of 1963? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a +letter to her. + +Mr. JENNER. From where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the +death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since +we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the +misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime +last fall." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and +especially his wife Marina? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it +is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President +of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we +still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us +no end of difficulty, from every point of view. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the +situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that +is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, +actually,---- + +Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? +What was wrong with what you did? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were +charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe. + +Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion +he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing +of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair +statement? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I +have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and +I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was +mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and +sickly." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we +heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their +miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the +character." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him +seriously." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right. + +Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian +refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to +her husband." You have told me about that course of events. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes +occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy +for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, +and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady +characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions +should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two +sentences. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the +President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely +jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, +attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and +was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had +nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in +everything he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a +way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own +bootstraps? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it +made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he +was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a +mental blackout. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have +been taken." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better +precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at +the time to protect the President. + +Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very +first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the +assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in +the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and +he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, +Lee, Lee--and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?" + +And he said, "I guess that is the name." + +Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me. + +Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it +occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the +rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the +Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were +driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy +and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some +association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a +gun there. + +But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read +and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, +and out of contact with events. + +The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers. + +Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and +naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him. + +Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from +somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place--he was +getting regular checks. + +Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place. + +Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me +to make any conclusions. + +Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December +12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper +articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the +letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have +any of your handwriting on it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed. + +Mr. JENNER. Typed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that +letter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, +this letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your +sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. +Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has +two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the +stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a +lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his +judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his +judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my +testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly +because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. +That is why I have the doubts. + +Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the +things you have told me about in this long examination? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any +humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering +anybody else? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering +doubts? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been +involved? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information +of anybody else being involved? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No information. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what +you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read +foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald +did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was--that +somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the +bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and +all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the +colony of foreigners--Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti, +most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in +the papers they receive from their homeland? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are +sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that +subject. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that +you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what? + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the +other. + +Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss +was not intended to imply that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on +whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to +say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life. + +Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, +which I assume you will. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck. + +Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February +2, 1964? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those +as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the +letter was enclosed? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written. + +Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us +about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in +1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people +connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti. + +I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the +northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a +company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the +Cuban situation. + +In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of +the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time +then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the +Central American countries? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project +from then on. + +Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for +Haiti--at the end of May 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, +did you not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington +preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the +people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were +attempting to interest? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a +Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting +this contract. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt +Exhibit No. 1." + +(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" +for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued +in connection with the Haiti venture. + +Am I correct about that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by +reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the +right? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent +success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is a headline? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that? + +Mr. JENNER. I would prefer--can you translate that literally? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America +by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general +of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent +success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now. + +"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant +mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph +Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, +who was at that time in Europe. + +"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard +Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and +the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles +has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The +active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti +has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest +financial companies in New York which does business in the millions +of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the +Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to +the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial +Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer +periods. + +"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate +business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start +through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of +construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years. + +"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will +be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country +will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting +contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president +and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for +Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which +will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial +Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti." + +Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading +that you described. + +Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city +of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of +the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday +morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New +York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the +Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, +New York. + +"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient +time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants +to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which +he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his +commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the +city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key +of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles." + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper. + +Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper +in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram. + +Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion +literature with respect to your Haitian venture? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible +investor with the personalities involved. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and +you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian +Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard +Joseph Charles? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify +as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of +correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you +transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received. + +(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt +Exhibit No. 2" for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first +sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in +your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas. + +The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. +Raigorodsky; is that correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, +dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in +your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky." + +Is what I have said correct? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one +sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum +Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, +Dallas 1, Tex. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have +given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6." + +(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, +5, and 6" for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to +Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one +a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, +from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of +yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; +dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes +of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De +Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16." + +(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and +16" for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some +additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three +documents. + +The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in +the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul +Raigorodsky. + +The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten +signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt." + +Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You +transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also +enclose the third document, which is a diagram of---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand +"Credits available for these industries--George De M., Dallas, +September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which +you--excuse me. + +Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified +as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10. + +(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, +and 10" for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De +Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11. + +(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" +for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of +Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available +to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is +it not? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not +elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the +upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an +arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts." + +Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three +lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the +word "Caracol." Read those words. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant +there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." +And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands +encircled, there appears more writing. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities." + +Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have +you explain it all later. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at +the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have +already identified in the record. + +Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions +we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between +the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center +of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the +area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is +some writing. What is that? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the +bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow +pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of +the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an +area, the chief town of which appears to be what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is written there? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on +there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about +your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in +some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous +work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in +the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961. + +I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which-- + +Mr. JENNER. Of what country? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity +to present a geological survey of Haiti. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and +all the mineralogical points of the whole country. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a +legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to +you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral +deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who +might be willing to risk their capital to develop it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business +promotional project. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in +any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great +care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or +group? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps, +and no other project, except our own commercial and geological +project--nothing else. + +Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision +by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here +in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are +officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey. + +On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and +on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. +He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his +maps, and we pursue our own work there. + +I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian +geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the +equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss +assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now, +recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his +family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him. + +I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, +an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and +geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have +geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian +Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay +$20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the +sisal plantation at Mont Rouis. + +This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. +Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now +Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, +and I am pursuing my geological work. + +Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because +I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the +project, and its good faith. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be +sufficiently justified in good faith. + +Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which +you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually +participate in various enterprises which may come out of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Such as? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries, +development of oil production, development of new hotels and new +resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I +think has excellent opportunities for American investments. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you +not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in +connection with the assassination of the President? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away +from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would +do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there +are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at +targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, +you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to +jail, but sent away from the town. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind. + +Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, +and he was target practicing with it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that +knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I +think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have +known. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not +know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's +attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel---- + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information. + +Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they +should have done what? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have--in my opinion, they +shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1. + +And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even +knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent +character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from +the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New +Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should +have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated +February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt +Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively? + +(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 +and 13," for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and +its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, +respectively. + +(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 +and 15," for identification.) + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made +official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed +by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating +that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the +consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, +originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. +Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on +sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the +duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I +think that will explain it. + +Mr. JENNER. Fine. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project, +because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort. + +Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De +Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his +letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss. + +Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to +read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might +want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of +the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it. + +It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct. + +"Dear George: + +"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please +accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you. + +"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew +Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world." + +Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the +words "It seems." + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I +imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington +again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to +meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my +warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy." + +Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I +hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer. + +"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss." + +Mr. JENNER. Dated? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas +card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, +Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph? + +Mr. JENNER. The whole card. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes +for 1964, George and Jeanne De M. + +"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. +Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We +are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas. + +"George." + +Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the +crimes in Dallas"? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President +and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the +assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one +after another. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the +flesh? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Did you know him when you were in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him +when you were in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took +place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. + +Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything +occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or +indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to +you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, +that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you +to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he did not join? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that. + +Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an +opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any +business advantage. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite +a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of +Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of +the whole project. It may be all for the best. + +Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of +Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily +to the--what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting +forth the background of information on a holding company that you were +developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company." + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962." + +Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have +just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many +other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and +people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti. + +I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development +of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil +possibilities. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the +record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything +that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions +which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is +pertinent and should be brought out? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any. + +Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you +this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful +investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think +is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important +work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you +could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much +as you can? + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at +some inconvenience? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, +I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this +country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here +for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly +personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been +personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read +your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that +you would like to read it over. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very +hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have +said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very +much. It is all right as far as I am concerned. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive +the necessity of reading and signing? + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Fine. + +Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might +have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability. + +Mr. JENNER. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow. + +If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you +don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it. + +I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De +Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT + +The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 4:45 p.m., on +April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. +Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but +the truth, in the course of your deposition which I am about to take? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. George S. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why "S"? The "S" doesn't belong there at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he acknowledged that it does. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. S? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Sergei. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a brother by the same name Sergei, and he +had a son by the name Sergei. Maybe he wants to add the letter to our +name. + +Mr. JENNER. No. It shows in the records for many, many years. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never knew that. Sergei is his father's +name--that is what it is. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a brother whose name is Sergei, do you not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Sergei Michail Fomenko. + +Give me your full maiden name. Your name as you were born and given to +you by your parents. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name will be Eugenia. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have no middle name. Just Fomenko. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother's name was Tatiana? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Tatiana. My father, Michail. + +Mr. JENNER. And your father was Michail L.? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is for--his father was Lev. + +Mr. JENNER. You were born in China? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Our information is it was at Harbin. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the nearest town? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nearest town to what? + +Mr. JENNER. Harbin. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not--I cannot say. + +Mr. JENNER. What part of China? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is Manchuria. The northern part of China, +close to the Siberian border. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the Russian-Chinese border? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a sister? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall, we had a--we had three +portraits in the house, of children--my portrait, my brother's +portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. And the +portrait--she was about 3 or 4 years old. I don't know how, where did +they get that idea, or was I actually told--but she is supposed to be +my half-sister--Alexandra her name was supposed to be. And I think my +father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they +don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. We have never +had any curiosity about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a naturalized citizen of this Nation, are you not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you naturalized on April 6, 1936? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--couldn't. I came here in 1938. How could you +possibly get that? + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I am misadvised. I was looking at the wrong +thing. You were naturalized when? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was 1945, but I cannot be +absolutely sure. I have my papers in the hotel. 1944 or 1945, maybe it +is 1944. If you want the exact date, I can easily get it for you. Do +you actually have information, naturalized in 1936? + +Mr. JENNER. No, I don't. I have your immigration record here. I will +find it in a moment. You became a U.S. citizen in proceedings in the +U.S. district court, in New York City, February 28, 1945. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1945. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you born on May 5, 1914? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Your parents, were they Russian citizens? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father took a Chinese passport, and I cannot +tell you whether he already had it when I was born, or whether he took +one later. But I believe he took one later. He took probably one later, +when they sold the railroad to the Reds, you know. That is when he took +the Chinese passport. + +Mr. JENNER. He was born in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother was born in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To my knowledge, yes. They were living a few +years in China before I was born. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in what business or occupation or government service +was your father engaged? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was in charge of the Far Eastern +railroad. + +Mr. JENNER. For what country? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For China. He was working directly with the +Chinese Government and with Chinese officials, with Chinese people. And +then in 1925, when the Chinese sold the railroad---- + +Mr. JENNER. When what? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1925, the Chinese people sold the railroad +to the Russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the +Trans-Siberian Railroad. My father resigned. And he received quite a +lot of money from that. He had been in the service for quite a few +years. + +Mr. JENNER. You were 11 years old then? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1925; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of this event? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I knew about that. I cannot tell +you--that is recollections of the past. And he started to build another +railroad on his own called HoHi Railroad. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +You came to this country on August 4, 1938. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right; San Francisco. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, your father, as you said, was director of a +Chinese Eastern railroad. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I was looking for some papers here. The Chinese sold the +railroad to Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in 1925? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is how I understood it. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, your father ceased at that time to be +director of the Chinese Eastern Railroad. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He resigned, and in fact we were +planning to come to the United States, the whole family. We wanted to +come to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just because it is not our country to live there +forever. We were brought up with white people, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to +the Russians? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because from what I know they wanted him to take +a Communist passport, and he refused. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is from what I know he is supposed to have +Chinese passport. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. He was--not the +chief, but the elderly friend for the Scouts. We had a wonderful Scout +organization, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. He was very, very active +in that. He was sort of like a patron for it. We have a marvelous +organization in China. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in the world +yet--how well it was conducted. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father eventually? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We never could, since 1941, right after Pearl +Harbor---- + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After Pearl Harbor, we didn't have any +communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. We tried to check +through the Red Cross and find out. Nothing could be done. We just +couldn't find out. Whenever I saw some people that returned from China, +came over, and whenever I asked them what happened to my parents, did +you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't +know, they just disappeared. Then in 1957, when I saw my brother, he +told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in 1945 and +he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. Father was +killed by the Communists. + +Mr. JENNER. Which Communists? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know which ones--the Chinese +or Reds or Japanese--I don't know who. And he was taken on the +railroad--that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere +and shoot you. And my brother told me he died in 1941. I don't know how +he found out. I assume and I think that the American government helped +him, because he is in rather secret work. He could not possibly do it, +having parents---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is your brother who lives out in California? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you eventually--before you came to the United States, +were you married? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was married to my first husband. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you marry in China? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the name of your first husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He had a few first names, and to tell you the +truth I don't know which one is the right one. I cannot say. Because +half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called +him by the other name. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name was Valentin, and the second one +was Bob--they called him Bob. So which one is right, I don't know. But +I liked Bob better. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his last name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His last name was Bogoiavlensky. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were married when? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we were married in 1932, in the fall. + +Mr. JENNER. In what business or profession was your husband engaged +when you were married? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, at the time when we were married, he +was--we were both working, making designs and constructions--making +plans and building houses together. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you associated in business? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't exactly business. I don't know--it +is not done like it is done in the United States. We just knew how to +build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had +the project--somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we +would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with +contractors and had the building constructed. And then I believe he was +also working in the--the Japanese were building their airport. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Harbin. And he was helping and surveying +the grounds or something. This I don't know, because I wasn't +present--something on this order. And that is what really actually made +us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the Japanese started to +grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants. +They wanted to keep everything very, very secret. So quite a few of our +friends just disappeared overnight. + +And then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already, +completely beaten to a pulp and so on. Quite a few things started to +go on. And then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that +we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said +we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. We took +a train and went south, and went to Shanghai, and lived in Shanghai, +until we were ready to come to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were in China, were you and your husband--did you +engage as a dancing team? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was dancing quite well. + +You see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job +somewhere. So he was helping me. He helped me as a partner. And I +danced a solo. + +We did that in Tientsin. And then Shanghai. + +Mr. JENNER. And in order to support yourselves---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were a dancing team. + +You see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were +doing very well really. Fate does strange things to you--throws you +from one profession to another. You think it is the greatest tragedy--I +will tell you later what happened to me--and it is the best, actually. + +So it was working out very well. We were quite successful. And then +something happened later. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you change your name at this period of your life? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We changed the name when we started dancing. + +Mr. JENNER. And you changed your name to what? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. LeGon. We picked up the name out of the +dancing magazine. But with this name--you see how it happens. You +get so involved that you have to stick to it. You cannot just--you +knew--because some people know you by this name, then you start with +another name, and it sounds ridiculous. But since then already we had +it. And we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it, +because personally I don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is +not fair for the country to use a name like Bogoiavlensky, or a name +like De Mohrenschildt. If it would be up to me, I would cut the other +one down. + +It took me 3 months to learn to pronounce that name. + +Mr. JENNER. There have been some people that because of the name +LeGon--that you had some French. You are not French? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, I will tell you. I had to start in New York +to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had +terrible trouble to get any kind of work. He was making $18 a week. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1938? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was 1940, 1941, when my little girl was +born. + +Mr. JENNER. Your daughter was born in this country? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your daughter's name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why I could not dance any more. I had to +drop completely dancing and everything. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned your daughter, let's cover her. + +What was her given name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her given name was Jeanne Elinor LeGon. Also +after a dancer. + +Mr. JENNER. Eleanor Powell? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, exactly. And being unaware--you see, in +Europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second +one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case. + +In the States the last name is the one that counts--the previous names +don't mean much. + +So when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a +legal paper of changing our name to LeGon. So in her birth certificate +I put down Jeanne Elinor LeGon and just in case, Bogoiavlensky, so just +in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown +somewhere--I was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be +put out of the country or something--she was born here, and that is her +name, and I put that Bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate. + +And that started the whole uproar. + +And besides--I lost her birth certificate once when I needed it for a +passport--I could not find it, because I was looking under "L"--I told +them to look under "L". And for months they were looking under "L" and +then it dawned on me, did I put, by any chance, Bogoiavlensky. + +So they filed it under "B". + +Well, it is my own fault--I asked for it. I can't get rid of that name. + +It is a pretty name. In fact, it is a very novel name. But I don't +think it belongs in this country. I think it is ridiculous for people +to have such long names. If you are a priest's family, that would be +fine. But not for us. + +Mr. JENNER. When was your daughter born? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She mas born April 30, 1941. + +Mr. JENNER. I might go back with your husband. + +Where was your husband born, your first husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, he was born in--I think in +Russia--and brought out as a very, very little boy. And I never met his +father. His mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. I only +knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful. + +He had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in +the war with China and Japan. We never could find them. One of them +was with the British forces and another with the French forces. And +I understand one was sent to Hong Kong, and the other remained in +Shanghai. And we never heard from them. + +So that is one of the really big tragedies. We were anxious to find +them, because we were going to get them over here. They had good heads. +They could grow up very fine. + +Mr. JENNER. You have always regarded the United States as a haven? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. It was the country by choice, +because we could have gone to Europe. But I didn't want anything--this +was from so and so. I said I wanted to have a country where everything +is new and fresh, and if I break something I go to the store and buy +another one. + +I never have anything you can break. It was just because I was brought +up with furniture with little gilded things in it, I don't want any +part of it. I have been in Europe about 15 times after. + +Mr. JENNER. I know you have. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I enjoy being there for a few weeks. But I +would never live in Europe. I would not be happy. + +If I had to, I would live there, but I don't like--the whole atmosphere +doesn't appeal to me. + +Mr. JENNER. There have been various reports on your views with respect +to Russia and communism. + +What are your views? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I am? + +Mr. JENNER. What are your views? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My views? + +Well, I tell you. I am not a Communist by all means at all. I think +that revolution in Russia was inevitable. It is just horrible that it +happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people---- + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about the revolution of the 1920's? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. 1918, 1919. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, 1918--that is when it started. I know in +fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never +any conversation--too many people were killed. In fact, from what I +understand, all the families of my father and mother were killed, too. +So we never had any conversation about it. We just were kept away from +the whole thing. + +And, beside, I deliberately stayed away from all of that. I said it is +none of my business, I have never been there, I don't know what it is +all about, I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be +prejudiced to anything. + +But after, later on, when I grew up and the revolution was necessary, +it is just too bad it happened like that. + +And I do hope that the country eventually will come out and become +human again, and I think it is getting to be more and more human. + +But it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have. +That was the most wonderful thing. When I came here--unfortunately, I +landed in New York. I didn't want to, but my brother was in New York +and he said you come right away to New York. + +I love California, because of the climate. I like sunshine. So I came +to New York, and New York, of course, was very depressing to me, +because it was dirty. And I had an idea that all the white countries +and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed +to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. They are +supposed to be well mannered. + +And then I came in in that awful New York. And, of course, I had almost +no money. I had to use subways. It was very, very bad. + +But then I saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering +of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying +anything he wants to. And I said, what is going on? They said he is +just saying something--I forgot what it was all about. But how people +were talking freely and expressing themselves openly. + +Mr. JENNER. They had a right to do that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; And in China--you see, we were always--we +never could say anything openly, for many reasons. + +First, I don't know, but I assume there was a lot of Red spies probably +everywhere. So we could never say too much. + +Then there were Japanese that came over. We couldn't say anything again. + +So we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you +never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will +happen to you. That is the atmosphere that I was brought up in. + +I wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because +sometimes he says things--of course, being European, he likes to see +Russia. + +I said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for 2 days, +you would be shot in 2 days. He doesn't feel that there is a place, +places that you cannot be like he is. You just cannot do it. Maybe +that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he +wants to say, and people misinterpret it. People misinterpret it, and +then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else, +and then they say he says something bad. This is really terrible. This +is many, many times, you know. But he learned his lesson now. Living +in Haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with Papa Doc. You know the +regime there now. He is quite a dictator. He is going to be pronounced +the king now, at the end of May. And, of course, there is tremendous +opposition against it. It is not for our sake, but for our Haitian +friends' sake, we cannot say anything. + +So he learned a little bit of the atmosphere where you cannot talk. + +He said--"I am so glad we went to Haiti, because I have no desire to go +to Russia." + +That was wonderful. It was music to my ears. + +I said, "Now, you learn." + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But some day I hope, anyway. I would like to see +it. I would like to go down south to the Crimea which I understand is +beautiful, the Black Sea. I would like to see all the world. + +I saw quite a lot. + +But I would like to see that, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother, Sergei, he came over to this country, did he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What? + +Mr. JENNER. Don't you have a brother by the name of---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he what? + +Mr. JENNER. He came to this country? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. I believe he came in 1930. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is still here? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where is he located now? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is in Woodland Hills, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. Engaged in---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is 4560 Deseret Drive. + +He is with North American Aircraft Co. He just switched. He was with +Ramo Wooldridge. A few years before that he was with Linnet Co. in +Beverly Hills, and before that with Howard Hughes, and before that he +was with Berkeley, University at Berkeley, doing some research. + +Mr. JENNER. He attended the University of Chicago? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He attended after the war. But he originally +came over to study in Berkeley. He graduated from Berkeley. But then +when the war broke out he volunteered--he was 2-1/2 years in service. +But he was never sent over, because he did so much important research +work, that they kept him here. + +And he met Professor Rasby of Chicago University. And then he went to +work with him in Chicago University for very, very little money, but he +had all the facilities for his work. That is where he met his second +wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, I hope. Four +little kinds, darling home. + +Mr. JENNER. And you eventually were divorced from your first husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He retained the name Robert LeGon? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't change his name back to Bogoiavlensky? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +By the way, do you know he is in a rest home? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a lot of unpleasantness around in that +time, because he was already going off completely. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced from him in the summer of 1959? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no, no; before that. It was 1957, spring of +1957. Yes; it was in the spring of 1957. + +I believe it was first of May or something. I don't remember exactly. +But it is pretty close. + +Mr. JENNER. And you married your present husband, George De +Mohrenschildt, in the summer of 1959? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1959, yes; in June, towards the end of June. + +Mr. JENNER. And your daughter who was born to you in New York City---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Manhattan Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. She was--her given name was---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jeanne Elinor LeGon. + +Mr. JENNER. And she changed her name to Christiana? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her father did it. She was just a youngster. + +You know what happened to him mentally. He went completely--I don't +know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them, +maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's +name or something. But for a particular reason he didn't take it +himself, but he put it--insisted that my daughter will take the name. + +Mr. JENNER. What name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bogoiavlensky--and drop the LeGon. And she +was baptized--she was brought up as Episcopalian. I never baptized +her, because I wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew +up. I know too many people who have too many difficulties later when +they find out they want something else. By the time she was baptized +she liked the name Christiana and she took that name. And he changed +her name to Bogoiavlensky again. So it was very, very unpleasant and +horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing +you of being a Communist? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if you have a letter, I wish +I would have a letter what he did. You see I had charge accounts +throughout the country, because I was making very good money. Lord and +Taylor, Saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. And when that +happened, I actually told him that is the end, I am divorcing you, and +that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent +out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the +department stores, including Niemans, and I believe Niemans showed me +the letter, and there was a Golden Pheasant Restaurant--they showed me +the letter--that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that +Eugenia Fomenko Bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is--almost putting that +I am a spy, and God knows what in it, and that he is not responsible +for my debts, for my accounts. + +It was 1957, and since 1941 I was the one that made all the money in +the family. I was the one making all these things, bringing up my +child. So that was horrible. That is not all. He sent letters, and he +signed "FBI"--make believe they are from the FBI. He sent to all my +people in New York, firms that I work with, that also I am a spy or +something, this and that, horrible. + +And I was in Europe that summer. And a friend of mine came over and +said, "What is the matter with you?" She said, "What happened to you? +The FBI are looking for you." + +I said, "Are you kidding me?" + +She said "No;" one of the manufacturers showed her the letter. + +I said, "For God sakes, this is ridiculous, I never heard of such a +thing." + +So when I come back to New York I right away went to see all of them. + +They said, some were laughing about it. But some I know they had a +little something behind their heads. + +Mr. JENNER. They were worried? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that, +already set people thinking. And do you know that I could not get a job +in New York, just because of that? And, fortunately, being in Texas, I +switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and I had two jobs in no +time in that market. + +And I was able to get--I lost my job in Texas while I was in Europe +because of that. + +He sent that to my employer. + +I never told that--I don't know if my present husband knows it--because +that would really kill him, a thing like that. + +But it was eventually straightened out. But I was actually out, I +couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, I had to +send her money. I had nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was she attending a university? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. UCLA. + +Mr. JENNER. When was this? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1957. Fall of 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to live with you right after she +was---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came over for summer. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1957? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I will tell you. It is really a very tragic +thing. I knew I should have dropped this when she was 6 years old, +because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. But we just +had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things. +And he just could not adapt himself to the country. + +I know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost. +Whatever we had, it is never the same. It never was good enough. Our +daughter would never have what we had in childhood. + +He was from a very wealthy family, and, fortunately, I was, too. + +I said, "For goodness sakes, who cares? We are alive. How many people +are dead already? We are here. It is a new country. We will make what +we want to make out of it." + +I started from $25 a week. And in New York I was making $1,100 a week. +That is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it, +and you work. And if you don't have a negative attitude. + +But he could not. Even when we had a nice home in California, with +beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see Catalina Island and +everything. He said, "No; at our house we had 30 people for dinner +every day." It is awful. He never could get adjusted to it. + +Mr. JENNER. But he wasn't earning a living, was he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he wasn't. He was always--you see, I +understand from talking to doctors--he was off for quite a while, which +I didn't know. I didn't know it. And it never occurred to me. We were +brought up maybe 200 years set back. This was the husband, and that is +the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it +is that is how it is going to stay. So it never occurred to me there +could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. In fact, my +brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find +out why he should have such an attitude, but I laughed at my brother. + +Unfortunately, maybe I should have listened to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit--you came to this country. Did you and +your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were supposed to. We had auditions with Moss +and Hart, very successful. And we were almost ready to have a contract +in the Rainbow Room. And then I became pregnant with my little girl. +And that really shattered us to pieces. We are awfully happy to have +a child, but that was not the time to have the child. We had to leave +everything in China, because we had to cross all Japan. So that was--at +the time it was just like a tragedy. And after she was born, I could +never dance. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, after the birth of your daughter, did you--what did +you do to sustain your family? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I stayed home for 1 year. We just lived on +whatever he made. Because I wanted to bring her up--I don't believe in +nurses. I like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in +whatever a little baby should be trained. + +And then if he could possibly make a little better, I would not go to +work. + +But then I saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and +more depressed, and is getting worse. He just didn't care. He had that +attitude, "I don't care." I said if that is his attitude, if I don't do +something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. So I started to +think. What could I do? I spoke English, but crazy pigeon English. + +I couldn't do anything architecturally, because I don't know the +terminology. I can automatically make the drawings, but I would not be +able to render it. It would be impossible for me to have anything. + +And then actually, without knowing anything, I became a model. I had +two lessons, and I pretended that I was very experienced. I fooled +everybody. And I somehow got a job as a model. + +And then--at one place it didn't work out, because it was very +depressing and horrible atmosphere. On Seventh Avenue it is no joke. + +Mr. JENNER. My daughter is a model. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably with a good firm. + +I have a couple of firms that are fantastic. And then I switched to +Leeds Ltd. And within 1 year, from modeling, from 25, I became in +charge of the showroom. I was selling, I was selecting fabrics, and +became a stylist. + +And then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and I have +been with them for 7 years. + +But to start with, I worked 7 days a week. I worked even Sunday, until +1 o'clock--that is how hard I worked. + +And the very same firm paid me in 1957 to design a collection for them, +the same clothes I did 10 years ago--$500 for 5 days, for 4-1/2 days. +So you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. Only in the +United States. + +Mr. JENNER. A country of opportunity. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you want to. + +That is what Marina--that is why I get mad with her. I told her, +"Marina, look at me." + +Let's not talk about Marina now. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to get to that. But I would like to cover this +background first. + +You continued as a designer? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I switched firms. + +Mr. JENNER. Of Leeds Wearing Apparel? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I started to travel to Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. You made frequent trips to Europe? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Twice a year. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, eventually, you reached Texas. How did that +happen? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my daughter had asthma. She is a very +allergic child. And her health was really terrible. In spite of all the +care given to her, she just could not stand the New York climate. And +our family doctor said the only way to save her--she was getting really +sick from antibiotics and penicillin--is to change the climate. + +So I was very anxious to change the climate--going to California, that +was my aim. + +But I could not reach California. Mr. Gold, of Nardis Sportswear in New +York, wanted to open a suit department. And, of course, the buyers did +know me all over the country--the same buyers--recommended to get in +touch with me and engage me. And it was pretty good. It was $20,000 a +year, plus two trips to Europe, with expenses paid, and about $7,000 to +buy the models--you just cannot go in and look at the shows. + +So I decided I am going to go and do it. And Texas is better +climatewise than New York. + +And, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left New York. +It is a fantastic change. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you go to Texas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Texas in 1953, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. 1953. Did your husband accompany you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came in the summer, and then I had to go +immediately to Europe. And he came over in the fall, when my daughter +returned from camp. He came over in the fall, and then shipped all the +furniture. + +In the meanwhile, I stayed with the Golds. They have a very big +mansion---- + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband left Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he came in the fall of 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. He came in the fall from New York City? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was there--how long did he stay? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He stayed there until about February of 1954. + +Mr. JENNER. And then he did what? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then he went to California. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he working? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he went to visit my brother for holidays. +We always tried to go to California instead of going to Miami, to be +with my brother. And he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move +to California. So we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate +something while I finish my contract. My contract was expiring in the +spring of 1954. + +Mr. JENNER. Your contract with Nardis? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I would go there, also, also in the +late spring or early summer--maybe he can locate something in the +meanwhile, in California. + +And then I was very lucky. It was Mr. Gold's tough luck. But it was +good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. There was a +tremendous scandal. And he had two buildings--he lost one of the +buildings. In other words, he could not afford even to go into the +suit operation, and go ahead with it. So he was very glad that I asked +for release, and he was glad to give it to me. He thought I am going +to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract +before. And I was very glad. It worked out very nice for me. We +remained good friends. And then I went to California. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you work in California? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked with Style Garments, a coat and +suit firm. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the name of it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Style Garments. They are out of business now. +The owners were interested in real estate. And they went into real +estate. So the firm closed up. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in California? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Actually living in one spot--that was 1954. I +think it was 1955, spring, I received an offer from Dallas, to fly +just for 2 or 3 weeks, and design a collection of suits. It was for I. +Clark. That was wonderful. + +Mr. JENNER. That took you back to Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On and off. I just went for a few weeks. You +see, I designed a suit collection, and I went back. And then they asked +me to come over and do some more dresses. So I started to go there back +and forth. And also, at the same time, going to New York to buy fabrics +for the firm, and at the same time I decided, well, if I do that, I +might do the same type of work in New York. If I can fly to New York +to buy fabrics, I can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand +dollars. + +I designed a collection for Handmacher. I designed a collection for +Leeds. One week I got $1,100. So you can see what can happen. + +But that really was getting me. Because it went on until 1956 fall. I +was on the plane more than off the plane. And it wasn't very good for +my daughter. She was already 14, 15. + +Mr. JENNER. You had custody of your daughter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the divorce? + +Mr. JENNER. Were you taking your daughter on these trips? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; how could I? She was going to school all +the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she going to school in California? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; going to high school. + +Mr. JENNER. Eventually, did you take up permanent residence in Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I took up permanent residence at the time when I +told my husband I am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of +1956. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take your daughter with you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. She was then what age? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was 15. And I have a reason for doing that, +because I just couldn't do it to her father. He would be completely +killed. The only thing left--he doesn't have any relatives at all. He +doesn't have a single soul in this world. In fact, I tell you--in the +divorce case, I insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her +money, he will have money to live on, too. + +If I took the daughter, I could not give him money to live on--he +wouldn't take it. But if he had custody of the child then she will be +provided for, and he could still keep on going with that. + +So that was the thing. But it worked out the other way--when he +completely turned in rage. He even, when I flew to California he +wouldn't let me see her. I had to get a sheriff to see her. Now, I +understand. + +Mr. JENNER. He is in a mental institution in California now? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He was, on and off, and finally he is +there. He seems to be incurable. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you meet your present husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956. + +Mr. JENNER. When you came back to Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To design a collection. I was working there. + +Mr. JENNER. And did his daughter as well as your daughter join you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did, but later on. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She joined us in, I think, the spring of 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had both girls for a while. You know, she +eloped, his little girl. + +Mr. JENNER. And married Gary Taylor? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I wanted to break that marriage right +away, and get her back in school, and spank her--really tough. But the +parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. It +was no love--it was just delinquency. She didn't know who I was. She +thought I will be easy going--knowing her father, she thought I was +easy going. And all of a sudden she came in. She had to study, she had +to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with I have to meet +first. So she couldn't possibly--I talked to her just last year. I +said, "Tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought I +would be very easy. And you certainly didn't like the way I was strict +with you." + +But I was strict with my daughter, also. And she was older than she +was. And she would not go out until she brought the young man to +introduce. And then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my +present husband. + +She asked, "What do you think of him?" + +She was 19 already. That little kid was just 14 or 15. So I could not +possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much +older. + +Sometimes I think maybe if I wasn't so strict with her, maybe--you +never know with children. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra, is +now married. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is divorced. + +Can you imagine that? + +Mr. JENNER. She has remarried. + +Tell me about your present husband. What kind of a person is he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. He is a terrific person, +absolutely terrific. He has a soul of gold. I really mean it. And +sometimes he drives me so crazy, I can just smash his head, because he +is so impatient. He is extremely impatient. He is always in a hurry. +You have to be 10 times faster than he is in order to have everything +quiet. That is about the only quality that I would not like--he is just +always in a hurry. He is always rushing somewhere, and everything has +to be just immediately. Never a second late. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he an outspoken person? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; very, very, very outspoken person. + +Mr. JENNER. Very handsome and an attractive man? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. I like--inside--I think he is +much better inside than outside. He is a good-looking man. And women +find him fantastically attractive. I don't. I like his personality. I +think he is wonderful. He feels--he is nice with people, he is nice +with animals. I don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate +harm. + +He can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and +actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may +hurt them. He may do that. + +But he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. So by +speaking like that--for instance, he can make a joke about a person, +really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person. + +Mr. JENNER. He is a little heavy in his humor? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it is uncalled for at all. + +And, later on, when I tell him, he agrees with me. But it was already +said. And especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully +hurt. And he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing +people, which some people appreciate and some people don't. + +I personally don't appreciate teasing, and I don't appreciate--I don't +think it is necessary. He thinks it is very funny. I don't think it +is funny at all. That is the thing. Through that, I am sure he has a +couple of people that don't like him very well. I don't think they +hate him. The only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife, +because of the children. + +Mr. JENNER. Didi? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was so hateful, that nothing could just +soften her or break her down--nothing, nothing, nothing. No matter how +he tried, no matter how I tried, nothing. It is a blank wall. Such +hatred, such venom and such hatred. It is impossible. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why it is so wonderful when he told me +that she spoke nicely about him. It was a wonderful surprise. It is for +the first time, really. It was a very pleasant surprise. So we have +hope--maybe she is growing up. You don't have to be grown up to grow up. + +Mr. JENNER. What are your husband's political views? Now, I mean +political with a capital P. I don't mean Democrat or Republican +politics. I mean political in the grand sense. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the grand sense--I would say he is a real +Democrat, for democracy. But, also, you see, both of us--we don't +believe that every country should have the same government, because +each country--a certain government will be good for one country, and +would be completely awful for another. + +For instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries +may need that. They may live better, happier, until they grow up a +little more to handle themselves. So we don't--I would say we are very, +very flexible on this point, both of us--very flexible. It just depends +what is the best for the people. If people are ready and able to have a +complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world. +But it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off, +because some countries get lost--they still have to be guided. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him as a loyal American? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. He doesn't have to be here. He has +friends all over the world. And--we live out more than in. Why do we +come back? What is the reason? Just because we like it. + +Gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the +United States. We are aiming for the San Francisco area, northern +California. That is where we would love. We love swimming, the ocean. +That is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want +to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it +ourselves, in the place we want to. Not just to hop around. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mind returning at 9 tomorrow morning? + + + + +TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED + +The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April +24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert +E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. You worked for Judy Bond, Inc.? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Judy Bond, and Nancy Greer, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. The same firm? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at +the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned. +I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to +dresses. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name Jack Rothenberg familiar to you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could +be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer. + +Mr. JENNER. The records reflect that you were employed there as a +designer in the fall of 1957. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were +two--Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. +Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall working for Handmacher Vogel in 1956? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You remember when I told you I flew in and +designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited. +The same year. + +Mr. JENNER. Leeds Coats, Inc.? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Also 1956, wasn't it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956. +Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in +the fall of 1946? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You +see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And +instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which +happens to be Martins. + +Mr. JENNER. Martins Fashion Apparel Store? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers +very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, +on the floor. That was the general idea. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942, +1944, and 1945. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't +remember for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. And the fall of 1946. Then you worked for a while for R. H. +Macy. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just on the same basis--just for a couple of +days. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all right. I just want to know that you did. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. About when was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. It must be before 1947, +because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I +just couldn't combine it. + +Mr. JENNER. Way back in 1941 you worked for a while for Bloom and Eagen. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, a dress firm. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you remember about when that was? You worked there as a +model? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was before I even started with Leeds. + +Mr. JENNER. You worked there as a model. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Lombardy Coat Co.? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I +don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a +couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor +happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it. + +Mr. JENNER. And your employment in Dallas was---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for +which you worked in 1953? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nardis; Nardis of Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And that spanned about what period of time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That spanned almost a year, starting summer 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I terminated the contract around April. + +Mr. JENNER. Around April of 1954? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for whom? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From then on, I moved to California, and I +started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be 1954? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too +long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had +an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. And that---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my first job with Clark, because I +worked for Nardis before. + +Mr. JENNER. And you worked for Clark for how long? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our +walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in 1960? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and +summer and fall of 1960? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We +left Dallas on October 6 or October 5. + +Mr. JENNER. 1960? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960. + +Mr. JENNER. And you returned when? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to +the same date--in the very first days of October. I worked for another +company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Spring or fall? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was summer, just before we went on our +trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too. +1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip. + +Mr. JENNER. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when +you got back? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going +to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was +negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was +stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could +not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. +You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and +dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize +the whole thing. + +Mr. JENNER. But it did eventually materialize? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly +hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off +on this, and he couldn't do very much, either. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For me it was really drastic. + +Mr. JENNER. But you went to work--you did return to work before you +went to Haiti? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we +needed to do it. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Millinery. I was working in the millinery +department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Preston Center? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Preston Center Store. + +Mr. JENNER. And you worked in the millinery department until just +before---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before we left for the east, before we made a +trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth +of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we +planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and +then he was also in Washington. + +We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the +whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and +God knows--we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days. +And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace +Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew +over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with +everything. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I +think, was on the second of June---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We arrived 2 June. Oh, yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other +than this trip you have now made to testify? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan +about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In +fact, we didn't leave the country at all. + +Mr. JENNER. That applies to your husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband +was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in +Yugoslavia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you join him there? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the +date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished +designing--I joined him--it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was +my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my +husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and +they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with +this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job. + +Mr. JENNER. You joined him in Yugoslavia. What town was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Zagreb. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were with him in Zagreb how long? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10 +days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He +worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And +then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was +Petrovaz, a little town. + +Mr. JENNER. And he remained there, and you remained there how long? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Petrovaz? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had +time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was +an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had +been shooting at us in Yugoslavia? + +Mr. JENNER. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about +that. But I would like to have you tell me about it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to +be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature--nothing that already +will be prepared for us. So we took--in the morning we took a walk in +the mountains. We climbed the mountains. + +In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it +was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast--the most beautiful spot +in the world. And the mountains--we saw something that looked like a +fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and +pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was +old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they +were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested +in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing +this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea. + +He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do +something to them--this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know +a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is obnoxious? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want +to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the +shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out--his +bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The +current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it +was very difficult. + +So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said, +"They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni, +the villa where Tito lives--they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough. +We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a +little island. We left the canoe. + +Mr. JENNER. Canoe or rowboat? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat. +So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front +of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the +water in front of another cave. It was beautiful--just like a curtain +drape. And all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from +me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the +cave and we were sitting there--what are we going to do? We are quite +far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they +shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and +talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk +to us, but nobody came. + +So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we +dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. +Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got +angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials +came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was +another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty, +not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is +what happened to us in Yugoslavia. + +When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches +of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such +things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States +Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody +doing some sketching. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day--he went for +a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero. + +Mr. JENNER. Nero is one of your pups? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of +course, Haitians--they almost called him Longaron--that is a werewolf, +Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very +mild people. They just enjoyed it. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you leave Europe on that occasion? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When--1957? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot tell you exactly. But it was in the +fall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you both return to the United States together? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He +stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember +right after he returned Clark was in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. That is I. Clark? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And in fact he went with me to meet him at +the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me +into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned +together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth. + +Mr. JENNER. At Hanover, N.H.? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and then we drove slowly--we drove +through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw +it--St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to +drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through +Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his +old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They +have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what year? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was 1957; still 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall your husband making a trip to Ghana? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he did. I believe it was in 1958, in late +spring. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not for long. It was about 3 weeks or so. + +Mr. JENNER. That was for what purpose? What did you understand it to be +for? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, to make--he was working for some people, +for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and +he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the +National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said +now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria. + +Mr. JENNER. Nigeria and Ghana, are they the same? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They are not the same, but they are close. He +was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines +throughout the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating +business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that +now. It is a fantastic business. + +Mr. JENNER. It is fantastic? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you love nature. Otherwise, it is no fun at +all. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I +draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic +about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated. +They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I +really love that. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about +your trip down through Mexico and Central America. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never +forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more +exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and +in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost +like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us. + +Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy +with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us--we +get killed or not killed--the only thing we worry about Nero being an +orphan if something happen to us. + +But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little +trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so +well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried +water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took +water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the +afternoon, his dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. The mule? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. +Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5-1/2 months through Mexico. +Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting. + +Mr. JENNER. Costa Rica? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to +cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make +that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go +through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we +were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we +would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin +like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in +good physical shape. But the torrential rains--we were almost swept +out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in +order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from +our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return +to Dallas. And I didn't want to. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you get to Haiti--was that purely a business trip--I +mean a pleasure trip? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot +of minerals on the way. And he sent them--he had been sending them to +be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We +found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such +perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost. + +But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where +we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have +time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, +because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything, +because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico. + +Mr. JENNER. Your visa in Mexico permitted you to stay there 6 months? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the +border--that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would +be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry. + +But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a +volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you +imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since +I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the +crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The +lava was gushing down. We have photographs and movies. I am from the +red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero--my hair is +standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we +walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any consideration other than you have +indicated, any purpose--I will put it that way--of your trip other than +you have indicated? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency, +or any government? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Or have any political aspects whatsoever? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know you have to ask these questions, but +there was none at all, absolutely none. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico +and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, +did it not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But we learned about it much later. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Were you aware of the Bay of Pigs invasion in +advance? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Advance? We were not even aware at the time of +it. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. But we noticed something very funny. We +noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They +looked like American boys. And then when we--we had---- + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always +sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, +asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute +we arrived to the city--we leave our mule and go right away to the +Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a +commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked +about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of +the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion +was going on. + +So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running +around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that +there was an invasion. + +So maybe that was the people that were involved in it. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all you know about the Bay of Pigs invasion? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all we know about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in Cuba? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and +you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mikoyan? + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped. +We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was +also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you have a date when she eloped--sometime in +November. + +Mr. JENNER. What year? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must +be. I think it was 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was November 1959, to my best +belief. I cannot be sure. + +Chronologically, it must be around there. + +Mr. JENNER. You tell me about the incident and I will find the date. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was very simple. We had dinner with the +presidential pilot and some other friends. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the pilot of the President of Mexico? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the +name. Can we just say presidential pilot? + +Mr. JENNER. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now, +you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you +understand it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. G-o-r-d-u-n-i-o N-o-u-n-i-o. + +They were giving him--the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell +reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded, +and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan? +I said, of course I would. + +Mr. JENNER. Who said that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The pilot. + +I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun +to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then +George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't +go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I +go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt +you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded. + +So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that +reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd, +I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course, +pathetic. Women don't even look like women. + +Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Russian women, at the reception. The +Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even +good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in +some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because +I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole +tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was +with the captain, and he was very close--very good friend of Mikoyan. +We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was +speaking English. And then we came over to the plane. + +Mr. JENNER. You went out to the airport? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To the airport, when he was already leaving, +after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain +to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane +standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan, +this is my friend Señora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and +said---- + +Mr. JENNER. You spoke in Russian? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you, +Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a +Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time. +And all of a sudden, I deliberately--it was sort of a prank. He almost +fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it +in Dallas to everybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that was purely an adventure? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, sure. It was just a prank, just for fun. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or +any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico--you had not +anticipated the presence of the Russian mission? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely. +George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this +exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there--I think +they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the +Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been +on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it--they just didn't +accept it, they didn't accept his proposal. + +And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the +presidential pilot. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from +your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That must be November 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in +Mexico City. + +Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to Haiti? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to +Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly. + +Mr. JENNER. You flew to Haiti? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of that visit to Haiti? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The main purpose was to rest, and another +purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, +75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him +like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we +don't go now, we might never see him. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Michael Breitman. And he died within the next +year. + +Mr. JENNER. But that was--that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit +this gentleman? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And to rest. + +Mr. JENNER. From your long, arduous trip through Central America? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. By boat? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By boat, by Lykes Line. + +Mr. JENNER. And your harbor was what--St. Charles, or Lake Charles? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the +last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over +there, the Savages. + +Mr. JENNER. And the Mitchells? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house, +stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and +we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car. + +Mr. JENNER. Your friend---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Houston. We have quite a few friends in +Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period +when you met the Oswalds. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the +nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time. + +Now, as I understand it, you met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the late summer. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a small Russian colony? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony. +There are some odds-and-ends Russian people. + +Mr. JENNER. I am using a reference to identify a more or less +heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common +interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had +been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian +people there--some that came in after the revolution, and there are +some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now telling me about this situation in Dallas, are +you not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to classify who was before and who +came in later. + +Mr. JENNER. But you are telling me about people in Dallas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the +United States was, of course--Marina was, and I think there was another +one, Declan Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Declan Ford? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a +dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and +so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was +Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice +fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage +broke up. + +Mr. JENNER. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian +derivation. Some had come directly from Russia--that is, in the sense +that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Russia. They were prisoners, civil +prisoners. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her story is something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the +war ended, they met American boys, and married them. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't +know of anybody else. + +Mr. JENNER. Then others had escaped Russia or Poland? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. For instance, one of them--she was never +even in Russia--that type of Russian colony. She was married to an +American man. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, this is a group that had common interests--interested +in each other? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all +criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further +apart. They were not exactly all friends--I will put it that way. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see--you had been there--well, you were off and on +commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956, 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this +history, did you people--and I don't mean just you alone, but I am +talking about the whole group--become interested in them, seek to meet +them, become acquainted? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of +a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in +people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people +they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something--and none +of them were really--only Marina was--then we helped them. + +But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or +wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were you generally--were you advised normally in +advance that somebody new was coming? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for +months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. +They were talking for a couple of months. + +Mr. JENNER. Who? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we found out about her actually through, I +believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Max Clark? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort +Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very +active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity +things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he +even had a fund for them--the people would give money--because he gave +money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bouhe did give you money---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To pay for her dentist. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you remember how much that was? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, it wasn't very much--maybe $20; something +like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for +anything else with respect to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were +wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming +to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about +it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know when they came. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been +in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before? + +Mr. JENNER. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he +attempted to defect? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; nothing at all--in spite that it was in some +press somewhere--I believe it was printed. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw it. Never had no idea. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of +you--Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk, +Raigorodsky---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a character--Dymitruk was also imported +recently. I think after we were there. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean imported? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean he arrived--I call him imported. He was +really a sad sack. + +Mr. JENNER. He was the husband of Lydia Dymitruk? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you about her. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But I know very little about them. + +Mr. JENNER. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I +want to emphasize here is--if it is the truth--I don't want to put any +words in your mouth--that you had no advance notice that either of +these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, +never heard anything? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that generally true of all these people? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody +knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And, +actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know +that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot even tell. I would like to know, +myself, now, how it came about. + +Mr. JENNER. They were brought to your attention? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My recollection is that he finally--we were +sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we +still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally--I don't +remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us +for the first time. That is how it happened. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was in the late summer of 1962? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular +time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute +any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the +clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort +I would be glad to do. + +Mr. JENNER. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and +your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for +a year we didn't make any money, on our trip. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the facts. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Well---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not enough to be charitable. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and +petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on +business, finances, is he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money. +I am the one--I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He +doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a +steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good +money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in. + +He may have within a year two or three fantastic things--go to Ghana, +go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money. + +But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he +learned when he has something to hold onto it. + +Mr. JENNER. So there were periods when his financial situation was +good, so he was high? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we +were very fortunate before our trip--he had an assignment in Ghana, and +he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we +can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that +trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not +as affluent? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course. + +Mr. JENNER. But you folks were at no time wealthy people? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Real wealthy, no. + +Mr. JENNER. You made---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could have been if I saved the money, but I +didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. + +Mr. JENNER. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to +assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly; none at all. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were in a position that you could afford them time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And attention? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Not them--actually with Marina, because we +couldn't do much for Oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him, +and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had--I don't know who got +it--I think it was an agency that got him the job he had. + +Mr. JENNER. At Leslie Welding? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in +a darkroom. + +Mr. JENNER. That was later. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know the name of it. + +Mr. JENNER. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you +first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home +or---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I really don't remember. +And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying +to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still +remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our +house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we +took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know. + +Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the +baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone. + +Mr. JENNER. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never entered their home in Fort Worth. +George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I +think, when we brought Marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because +he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere--there was a +tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something. + +Mr. JENNER. Sears? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't +remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house. +That is what I saw. A wooden building. + +Mr. JENNER. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely +starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you +know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had +would make anybody miserable to live with. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow? + +Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, +and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he +was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was +that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. +Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My +daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't +have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, +and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such +circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because +Marina was throwing it into his face. + +Mr. JENNER. She was? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And +she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things, +and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And +I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, +while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her +what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for +him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked +overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and +when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running +around. + +He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very +difficult personality. + +And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive +attitude to him. + +I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, +he could have killed us. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife +physically. We saw her with a black eye once. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own +kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you +cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things +to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each +other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, +and see, maybe you really don't love each other." + +Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she +separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the +language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along +with Oswald's family. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them. + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to identify your sources of information. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they +didn't get along well with their---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say through them, because maybe people +talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's +home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody +mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in +the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is lazy. You see, there are people that +actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about +them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really +can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? At your home? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you--if I stay +with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning, +see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything. + +She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same +thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her +teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the +same way--very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it--a young person. +Maybe she was ill. We talked about it--maybe we have just too much +energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active. + +The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning +English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our +little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English--I bought +them in New York when I arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning +English, or did Oswald object to her learning English? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. According to her Oswald objected, and he also +told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he +doesn't want to forget Russian. + +But then we got onto Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was +his reason--not to let his wife learn English--because she was the only +person he could speak Russian to. + +Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she +learned English, couldn't he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, +"You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in +this country without the language, she cannot do anything." + +He was strange in many, many ways. + +But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little +violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your +wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness. + +Mr. JENNER. Please. + +You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the +child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him +into doing it peacefully. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller. + +Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put +the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how +nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary +until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or +3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, +because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not +a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she +refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely. + +And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe +for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure. + +Mr. JENNER. In October or November? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know. + +Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think +it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide +whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each +other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless +to continue to live the way they were. + +In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was +always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, Bouhe's +type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he is an older man. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe. + +Mr. JENNER. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your +husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the +personality. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both +Marina and Lee about their difficulties? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same +room. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as +to her dissatisfaction? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what? + +Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied +with him? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell +you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak +so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by +it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. +She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay +enough attention to her. + +Mr. JENNER. That was one reason? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes. + +And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes +to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or +something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat +her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. +She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes +to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their +main disagreements. + +And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. +He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just +changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the +child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child +makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to +pick the child up, Lee is after her--why is the baby crying? And the +baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her +or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She +had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just +couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same +time, she didn't do much to free herself from it. + +Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? +Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over +into those areas? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be +neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home +or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, +because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you +make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am +sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will. + +At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things +to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were +miserable, very, very poor. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your opinion of---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One thing I want to tell you. + +When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took +her--the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little +apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University +Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs +something with the car to help them. + +Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from +everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff--God knows +where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other +people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything +against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very +much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people +give her so many things. Maybe that is why. + +Why did he live so far? + +We were very mad about it, too. + +I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak +Cliff to help them with this or that"--if she had to go to the doctor. +Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier +for me to help her. + +He had some reasons to live far away. + +I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was +everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the +way out. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me of her personality. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same +time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way +she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she +loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive +on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States. + +That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she +felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to +come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big +houses and everything. + +Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her? + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind +of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that +house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that +apartment house." + +And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she +sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met. + +And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much +influential in making them come back. + +Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. + +On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he +was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him. + +Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had +been disappointed in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were +such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?" + +And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow." + +He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen." + +And I said, "How come you are back?" + +He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for." + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I +was looking for." + +So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, +and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard +way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was +wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about +paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the +first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them +to live. Those are the things. + +And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that +made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot +of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly +to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good +qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe +he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I +don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved +in it. + +But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and +she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging. + +Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us. + +Mr. JENNER. She did? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever +speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. +Because I could see---- + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, +something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't +mean anything to us. That is a conclusion. + +What did she say to him? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, +I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember +exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, +having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you +are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else. + +And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your +impressions, but how you came by them. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think +it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we +saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once +overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, +very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count +it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I +find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or +something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well. + +He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and +good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them. + +So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people +that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and +your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, +and Oswald respected your husband. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. +And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. +He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a +little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear +her dresses if we take her away from him. + +I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that +is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he +sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all +right, he would not do it. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you +related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money +so that she could live better? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, +sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick +that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I +didn't know such things can happen to people, you know. + +We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the +baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is +supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering--it has to +be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is +the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. +This man. So we objected to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you +formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term +"ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, +reading, reading, reading. + +Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will +hurt men's pride. That definitely was. + +Mr. JENNER. Try and recall more of that. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, +she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. +That was very important. Because--and I know--I told you the reasons +why he objected to that, which are understandable, also. + +But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--I +remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the +phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other +plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you +don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told +that to me. + +There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he +could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in +a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either--that type of a +person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like +that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him. + +You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their +hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to +do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of +charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those +people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him +after that. But Oswald didn't. + +And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked +Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that +Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. +He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that +Oswald was rude to people helping him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your +presence? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In which way? Overall political, or any +particular incidents? + +Mr. JENNER. Politics with a capital P. His views on government. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist +Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would +understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to +any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, +because that was--oh, this is very important. + +His objection--the things that he didn't like in Russia was those +horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that +you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive +people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to +go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he +was--according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or +belonging to anything. + +It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he +was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets +or something, in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Passing them out? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. Because we never had---- + +Mr. JENNER. You were in Haiti by that time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to +visit them? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday +before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, +I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it +was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for +the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you arrive there during the day? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was in the evening. I think we were +playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will +be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby. + +And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And +I remember they gave us something to drink. + +Mr. JENNER. You arrived there. Were they--had they retired for the +night? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they were halfway in bed already, +because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was +dark. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee came to the door? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or +Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. They turned the light on. And where were they living then? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was their last apartment--not Elsbeth, +but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other +address I don't have. It is just around the corner. + +Mr. JENNER. 214? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the address. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it upstairs or downstairs? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big +tree growing right next to the terrace. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little +fact could be important. + +Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that +occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came +to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and +your husband went in the home? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat +down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing +me the house--that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, +because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? +Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the +gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there? + +Mr. JENNER. You say---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't +hidden or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that +you saw? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make +believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning +something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is +this? + +Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, +because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. +This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just +had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here. + +Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because +when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the +closet--you saw a rifle? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course. + +Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I +gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it +was something new and strange to you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my +father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby. + +Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have +indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen +a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with +the bolt action that this has? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt +action, but I would not know. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was +something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or +something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, +plain rifle. This is for sure. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you +concerned about it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a +rifle? + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, +"Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived +in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves +and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I +personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to +shoot at a target, target shooting. + +Mr. JENNER. Skeet? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is +going in a public park and shooting leaves? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with +her, and that was his amusement. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the +park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go +to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't +find anything strange. + +Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement +parks? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Little .22? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking +around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, +shooting leaves? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had +no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or +just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it? + +Mr. JENNER. 6.5. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with +us. + +Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your +acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, +in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a +sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so +short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she +told me. And you know what happened after that. + +Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy +lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things. + +Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was +shooting it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other +part of the house? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two +rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they +have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were +sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? +A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his +sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He +said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started +laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, +according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of +Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any +change---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know. + +Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me +his. You noticed nothing? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of +expression? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at +him. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. +And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. +And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by +the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The +baby was asleep. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Never saw them? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was +Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I don't. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left. + +Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In +any event, it was the day before Easter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter. + +Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few +weeks, a couple of weeks? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, +Washington, Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already +gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood +that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't +get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, +with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't +remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when +there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of +Everett Glover? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's +friends. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, +and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed +that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had +still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple +of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a +woman, Ruth Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was +sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to +American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he +mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and +it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, +because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in +Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on +from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't +remember. I really don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your +home, isn't that correct? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we +liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful +person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to +somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have +any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to +advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too +much problems with our own children. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own +children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not +my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over +and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning +this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this +contract. We had our heads busy with other things. + +Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and +the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life +of Indians--or---- + +Mr. JENNER. About your trip? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all. + +Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was present? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it +was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I +don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was +there. + +There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that +worked with Everett. + +Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, +I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This +time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we +showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house +because they were interested in that. + +Mr. JENNER. What are their names? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a +university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I +am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when +the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got +them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we +came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day. + +Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing +it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for +dinner, and then we brought them over. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have +indicated? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of? + +Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have +indicated? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party +in December of 1963 at the Fords? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party, +and we attended it. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in +December? Was it in the holiday period? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it +December or was it early January, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this +Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you +know about Yaeko? + +Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before. + +Mr. JENNER. What was her last name? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always +called her Yaeko. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was she working? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time +or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the +family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was +wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. +I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to +invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. +Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus. + +Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese +special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas +Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives +exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and +she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But +then we heard that she was in New York. + +To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was +something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you +know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she +was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating +around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing +happened, too, with that Yaeko. + +Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically +spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of +course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was +furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what +I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was +very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's +put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a +house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from +Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by +whom Yaeko was employed? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily. + +Mr. JENNER. How? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that +actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very +well. + +Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about +Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. +Henry Rogatz, also in---- + +Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my +phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have +Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on? + +Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address +and telephone number, if you have it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe +somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when +we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko. + +Mr. JENNER. Voshinin? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more +than anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He +paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. + +Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the +slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. +We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. +That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only +talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what +she told me. He really liked Yaeko. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight +almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we +weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted +Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas +in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her +into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby +because the baby would wake up. + +I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have +another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we +went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we +took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up +the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back. + +Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, +Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That +was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in +December of 1963 you were in Haiti. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already. + +Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home +that evening? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we +had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor +woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby +was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, +because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. +That is why we were so sorry for them. + +I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried +to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little +boy, too. + +Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Alexandra? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She +thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she +doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, +also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that. + +Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was +complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with +Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, +and I think they helped them to move, even. + +Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a +good boy, you know. He is nothing at all. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, +so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's +prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry +for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. +I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some +and maybe the kids consoled them after. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she +sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything +come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to +Russia? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all. + +Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't +ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the +whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than +we ever knew about them. + +Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, +as well. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, +Jacqueline Kennedy's mother? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what? + +Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the letter---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband show you that letter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Before he sent it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show +to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything +or if he wants to add anything to mine. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 +being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to +Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter +was mailed. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think I really should read it. + +Do you want me to read it again? + +Mr. JENNER. You have read that exhibit? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read +this, too? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. + +The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently +last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and +especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean +by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him +because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the +killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather +not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we +help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him +in the same feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor +Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. +She and the baby were malnourished and sickly." + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, all that is true; isn't it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. +The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know +how to feed that baby. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby +was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, +like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I +insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was +9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, +didn't have anything. + +I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding +him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in +the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a +balanced diet. + +I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to +raise a baby correctly." + +She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, +putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's +mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all +that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the +clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina's teeth? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because +they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the +baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was +trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that +could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do +for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She just didn't know any better, you know. +That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina +doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling +about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them +all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, +sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested +in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She +wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for +anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything +like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely +opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was +absolutely too--I never thought that. I thought they were very, very +proper and very---- + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say about how they behaved? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild +parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth +would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian +companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad +ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, +you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or +in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy +interests. + +And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite +of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But +somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It +was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all +are, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in +Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very +little, because he was always working or something. One evening I +talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and +the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and +we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and +she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I +was really sorry for her. + +I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and +she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you +know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on +her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You +cannot be very angry with her. + +Mr. JENNER. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what +kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You +have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that +expression I assume they were parties of---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never +occur to us. + +Mr. JENNER. In this country? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In this country. I would say China, too. I was +brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth +never acted like that at all. + +So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely +degeneration. + +Mr. JENNER. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In bringing up the child? + +Mr. JENNER. In bringing up this child? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. That she fed her sugar and water? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Milk and sugar. + +Mr. JENNER. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with +the child? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The child was more or less clean, but with this +pacifier thing. + +Mr. JENNER. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up +and stick it in the baby's mouth? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and +then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. +Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected +teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, +didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make +any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the +medical help is supposed to be absolutely free. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any other incidents? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With Marina? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recollect of anything of any importance. + +Mr. JENNER. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her +honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests +were involved, let us say? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like +about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. +According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was +asked--I mean what swayed me about her personality---- + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers +afterward. I want your opinion. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really +impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, +promiscuous, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Promiscuous. + +Mr. JENNER. She was promiscuous but not malicious? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you +know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the +United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She +wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all +these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me +when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor +apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and +these gadgets and a refrigerator? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, +suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for +very little money. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know +if he even drives a car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive a car? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence +indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car +only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would +be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I +have. We didn't have too much discussions about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the +dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next +time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know her very little, but I recall her. I +think it is Lydia, isn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in +Baylor Hospital, dental clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. Some money had to be paid in that connection? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you got that money from George Bouhe? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, and he told me there would be +the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some +funds for them. + +Mr. JENNER. That if there was need for additional money---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time +last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove +to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away +from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I +did not take him seriously." You have told us about that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian +refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to +her husband." Is that correct? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the Mellers? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a +week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. +We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, +go through all that trying to do something for them and then she +dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we +were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if +we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let +them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which +Marina left Lee and went with some others? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even remember that. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, +too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we +hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden +I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or +something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a +few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only +connection we had. + +Mr. JENNER. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes +occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy +for success and the late President was successful in so many domains +and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady +characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband +discuss that sentence with you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this +letter. + +Mr. JENNER. But you read the letter before it was mailed? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I read the letter. + +The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be +that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you +know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything +that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he +was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful +President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so +it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression of the man? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, never at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make +any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and +whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely +exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that +would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that +is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable +discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, +no. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We read it in the papers after. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to keep separated here what you learned about +afterwards. + +Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. + +Mr. JENNER. That you had any contact with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever +mentioned? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was his boyhood ever mentioned? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His boyhood? + +Mr. JENNER. Boyhood. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Never, never. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't +lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't +remember discussing that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in +the service, and what he had done? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't recall any conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being +a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, +that was rationalization afterwards? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions +should have been taken." + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. I agree. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with your husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but +better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on +that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should +have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they +had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without +that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson. + +Mr. JENNER. So this remark in the letter is based on that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On that, exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. That is as far as you are concerned? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as we are concerned, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband may have had something else in mind? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did +he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right +wing, extreme right wing? + +Mr. JENNER. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably +did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans +are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like +what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to +segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too +forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. +And so there was a lot of---- + +Mr. JENNER. Animosity? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they +didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still +Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible +thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan. + +Mr. JENNER. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope +that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not +suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not +affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, +notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last +sentence, did your husband discuss that with you? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We talk about it very often. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In +fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his +office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please +mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I +wouldn't even see the letter. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he +prepared the letter? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was +going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just +wrote the letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more +than once? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I took her twice there, I believe. +They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed +me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It +gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you +know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be +a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn +English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit. + +Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the +Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could +be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to +meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I +am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, +"For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian +and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you +still didn't meet the Oswalds?" + +She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason." + +I said, "What are the reasons?" + +She said, "I cannot tell you." + +Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his +personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was +very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you gave them these language records? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A phonograph. + +Mr. JENNER. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money +that you had received from George Bouhe? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. But you didn't give them any of your own money? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not that I ever recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You brought them gifts? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just tiny little things. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You gave her some clothing. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. +By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes +was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some +slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have +it altered for her and she didn't need to. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home +overnight you gave her---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like +that. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance +in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever +discuss his finances with you and your husband? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much +about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay +out the debt. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the +United States and its form of government? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. He objected to the way the integration +question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do. + +Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to segregation, was he? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He +wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just +American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we +have. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his +views were. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is completely in accord with President +Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly +sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had +something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in +which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. +Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off +the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed +to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this +investigation? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the only thing, the question I actually +brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking +it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just +doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never heard of him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in +the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That he operated? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, +disposed to attend that sort of thing. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack +Rubinstein? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall +ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence. + +Mr. JENNER. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as +drinking is concerned? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean apart from newsreels? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. TV? No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated +that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of +Jack Ruby's places? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching +for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good +intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all +there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put +it that way. + +Mr. JENNER. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the +newspapers? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the only thing I know. + +Mr. JENNER. And not on any actual facts you know anything about? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; and, also based on the natural +deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any +sense. The whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple. +How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely +stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the +march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a +little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you +the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any +sense. + +No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he +would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it +yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up +for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't +have a good time, I am sure, and he did not. + +What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit +it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know? + +It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the +garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a +garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it. + +Mr. JENNER. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, +that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first +time? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That you knew anything about a rifle? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think +might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I +would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only +person that was, you know, what I mean--maybe it was just because +she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they +discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was +attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with +Marines staying in the east. + +Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling--Marina was telling me +the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so +on and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald had told her that? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated +that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take +her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, +something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. She needled him? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be +completely imagination, you know, all of these things. + +Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did you say? + +Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your +deposition? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from +Mr. Rankin? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. + +Mr. JENNER. General counsel of the Commission? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint +Resolution 137? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was +created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's---- + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; two copies. + +Mr. JENNER. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And fixing its responsibilities? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed +that is what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules +under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I probably did. + +Mr. JENNER. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the +Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you +and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately +has led to this. + +Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know +Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in +Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four +people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, +this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong +with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That +is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband +told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody +wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't +know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people +we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very +badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind +to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks +from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too +timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in +driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his +little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden +to see your child." + +The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning +the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did +something very big. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. +Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly +there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go +to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. +So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow--at the +moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project +because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the +relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because +he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and +mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American +people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is +doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart. + +The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever +possible and he is really doing something constructive. + +By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole +thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if +they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet +way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, +you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a +little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, +let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult. + +For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and +when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and +he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you +like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, +because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking +people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that +is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The +minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That +is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped? + +Mr. JENNER. We will see what we can do about it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in +conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we +should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is +not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the +character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That +leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able +to see the little girl. + +We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by +it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?" + +He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything +we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a +pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt +like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a +rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it +will come up. + +For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't +like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in +2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the +climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know. + +Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman +or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very +anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, +let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's +little girl. + +If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want the addresses? + +Mr. JENNER. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is +that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But +you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish. + +Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his +deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the +necessity of reading it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little +things to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sure, because if something was not just +exactly so, I don't think it really matters. + +Mr. JENNER. These men are quite competent and they take down everything. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is wonderful. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you will waive your reading and signing? + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to +be signed? + +Mr. JENNER. No; not unless you insist on it. + +Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the +other. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you very, very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE + +The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March +21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. +Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the +President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by +deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's +testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day +yesterday.[1] + + [1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the + Commission appears in another volume, and can be found + by consulting the Index. + +I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine +were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather. + +The REPORTER. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. +Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1932. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough +to get out of the hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so? + +Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey. + +Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there +before, I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from +Freehold, N.J. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York +then moved to Columbus, Ohio. + +Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10. + +Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in +Columbus? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College +at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950? + +Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949. + +Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of +Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a +portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work +in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps +to obtain these positions. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit? + +Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the +academic work and credit from your job placements. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the +Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker +faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College? + +Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education. + +Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in +connection with that major in your cooperative work? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in +recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my +job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools +and group work. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in +group work ever since? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least? + +Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, +yes, in the jobs I have sought. + +Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, +hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch +College? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined +in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I +became a member. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers +and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in +Columbus from that time on. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates +that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you +were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at +Indianapolis, Ind. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of +your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big +Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during +the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American +Friends Service Committee? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that would have been the following summer. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American +Friends Service Committee work camp. + +Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, +apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 +you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community +School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement +from Antioch College. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December +1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in +the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly +stated? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March +1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township +School, Dayton, Ohio. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you teach? + +Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow +learning class. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; +was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes +indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it +was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a +capital F? Forgive my interruption. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World +Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at +Pendle Hill. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill? + +Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is +a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of +Friends, Quakers. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two words. + +Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a +delegate to--state it again. + +Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford. + +Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England? + +Mrs. PAINE. England. + +Mr. JENNER. And you also attended---- + +Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference. + +Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were +associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young +Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may +say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the +Golden Age Club. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that +took the most time. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You +say there were three. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already +said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, +recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for +members' use. + +Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background +if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your +work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club +first. They were a group of what people? + +Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, +all of them Jewish. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all +were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them +had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business +meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had +been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke +it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook +to teach a few. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this +group? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and +club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which +sponsored the club. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided +change? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very +interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader +I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and +help them in communication between one another and specifically in +communication between the club and the organization, the Y. + +Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States +of America, as a group? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their +families here. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the next? + +Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a +week. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that +they were a group of young adults? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly +needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to +date and meet. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or +Poland? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here. + +Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would +you indicate what that was? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in +the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they +needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple +party. + +Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, +dancing groups or activities, rather, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it +was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more +in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the +visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either +the Golden Age or the young adults group? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They +could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This +required the least from me in the leadership. + +Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, +or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had +already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are +similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business +meeting which they conducted in Yiddish. + +Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time +had you taken a course in Russian at the university? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone +through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study +of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your +pre-Antioch College period of activity. + +Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at +least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; +Wolfe Truck Farm. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a private---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact +that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, +Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a +time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war. + +Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school. + +Mr. JENNER. That was high school? + +Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we +felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because +so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the +Friends Vacation Bible School? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to +Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with +a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in +Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and +read stories. + +Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the +Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had +enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in +Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts +and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them. + +Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical +education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. University. + +Mr. JENNER. University, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your high school? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school. + +Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical +education activities? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor +to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the +particular group was? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of +underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and +no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. +This was basically sponsored by the families. + +Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had +worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group +meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and +craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children? + +Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a +helper who was 13. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended +in the---- + +Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything. + +Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the +fall term. + +Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do +some work in 1956? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I +may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael +R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. +Germantown is a section of Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at +Germantown Friends School? + +Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and +1957 to 1958 school years. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher +for grades 1 through 6. + +Mr. JENNER. During all of that period? + +Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with +Pendle Hill? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends +conferences over this period of years, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of +the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends +Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your +testimony, have you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August. + +Mr. JENNER. August 1955? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned +the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active +in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions +between the east and the west? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that +particular interest. + +Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen +pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to +see and observe America? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough +yesterday. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian +language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language +arose about that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin +until later. + +Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of +a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, +Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at +Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that---- + +Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did +attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you? + +Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends +Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham +College, but they were not conferences. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number +of them. + +Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest +by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and +young people in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee +meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in +Wallingford, in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers? + +Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my +information is so limited. + +Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. It does not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little +garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made +reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were +interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, +as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over +here? + +Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from +the American Friends Service Committee, also. + +Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you +with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three +Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended +one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, +either before or after? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any +native Russian people other than these three Russian students and +Marina, that is to say up to November 22---- + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were +some who had been born in Russia. + +Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was +born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in +very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to +Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and +talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any +other contacts they were of that sort. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had +with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native +Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated +the character of your contacts with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your +contact with these people had been largely either in connection with +your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and +your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the +study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and +then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native +Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested +in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury +College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively +whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my +contacts. + +Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second +one, was Nina Atarina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a. + +Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is. + +Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 +months? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something +about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? +Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My +mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin +College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the +Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, +and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice +training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance +Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of +the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies? + +Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that +include any Iron Curtain countries? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State +University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies +with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the +company most of the time. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance. + +Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. +Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high +school days. Was your father an insurance---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then. + +Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told +about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the +activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I +was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is +called the cooperative movement. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand---- + +Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In +other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine +the management of the business, and share in the profits. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers +cooperative? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative +movement is? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I +am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were +interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is +an active political interest in a political party? For example, the +Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to +the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and +recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your +interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a correct statement. + +Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of +their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of +modest means? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more +money on education and good medical care than most people in our income. + +Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, +frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and +yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the +reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, +that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think +very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with +the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the +pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the +giving of yourself to others in that respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too +much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general +connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to +help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is +not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best +possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best +life is. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you finished? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping +anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that +can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from +something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. +But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the +first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to +whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time +of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of +refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little +bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your +attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to +your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?" + +She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he +came for a weekend I told him about it." + +Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to +arrive--that is November 1. + +Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?" + +She said: "Yes." + +She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They +left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they +wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want +to wait." + +Does that refresh your recollection in that connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection +stands as I told it yesterday. + +Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of +having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be +available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends. + +Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit +there was only one agent rather than two. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, also. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection +doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was +advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected +that particular weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. It could have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's +testimony? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't; no. + +Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way? + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have. + +Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly +that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. +Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to +see Lee Oswald if he wished? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he +was employed at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break? + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there +any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging +in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the +Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an +inquiry. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said +through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the +Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area? + +Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on +the 5th of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 +interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a +conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it +not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand. + +Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course. + +Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity +of some kind. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And you never did? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties +Union? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Or your sister? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League +of Women Voters? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you +say you were rather close to your father and your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to +my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, +you have a close relation with your folks? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and +possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer +to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, +meaning I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your +sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are +interested in each other's activities? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence? + +Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and +they in you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with +each other? + +Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good +letterwriters. + +Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you +are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting. + +Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the +years; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do +it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence +and also copies of your letters, were you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, +three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in +college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes +than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation +leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people +to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days? + +Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college. + +Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, +458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited +the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes +other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other +source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your +handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be +letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister +are likewise the originals of those letters? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from +you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances +others are copies of letters that you dispatched? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please. + +We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee +Oswald, and your answer was in the negative. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, +and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash. + +Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash. + +Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about +expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to +Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking +him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific +recollection is as to these two times. + +Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he +went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in +one. That was in the spring. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April. + +Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have +already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at +any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and +temperature. + +Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this +purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, +or in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used +while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items +for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no +groceries. + +Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, +for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one +instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, +which was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of +the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of +November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not +certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing +that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, +late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own +expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large +portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been +Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know +they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a +thrill. These were bought in Irving. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that +Marina was afforded very limited funds? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would +be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and +Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that +neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed +at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean +things with him on Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for +laundry? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you. + +Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, +any expenditures to the barber, to a barber? + +Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having +been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around. + +Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber +who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or +Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that +that was not Lee who did that. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or +having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in +Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that +is playing records, songs? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such. + +Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera +film? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she +took some pictures of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the +fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your +presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot +camera or other type of camera to take pictures? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he +held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and +said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different +size. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk. + +Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had +taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or people? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any +fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month? + +Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of +money. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given +by Lee to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's +Market to purchase some groceries? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina +and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think +this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the +store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to +walk--I am quite certain---- + +Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive--about 10 blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away? + +Mrs. PAINE. Something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are +not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say. + +Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of +his meals there at your home? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always +had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a +cup of coffee? + +Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one. + +Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch? + +Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or +packed some food for him to take. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in +September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his +residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from +a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how +much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three +places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between +you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their +finances and finances generally? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you +wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy. + +I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for +identification. + +They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and +Anderson, dated December 4, 1963. + +(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September +30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it +this way. Do you recall that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the +letter and ask you a question or two. + +In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads: + +"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph. + +"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the +baby." + +That is Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of +work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment +compensation, not much." + +Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it +followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September. + +Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum +or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation. + +Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It does? + +Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me +the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite +forgotten that sum. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says: + +"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will +send for them as soon as possible." + +That was your feeling at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both +to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February +to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said +she can have a place as long as they have need for it." + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation +that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period +of time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written +in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as +possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to +stay if that was necessary. + +Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to +convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and +that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be +at your home for any considerable period of time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that. + +Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing +employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning +Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send +for Marina and they would be together again? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, +and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would +you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother? + +For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the +middle of page 15 of this document. + +Do you recall the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that +Lee had obtained a position. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter: + +"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps +through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he +has the past two." + +Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with +the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being +deferred? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence. + +Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that +he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, +of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from +childbirth." + +We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the +baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care +of the house, and with June. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into +the following year? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. 1964? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular +letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in +February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer." + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that +Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? +In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible +difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting +your mother. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that +Marina might still be with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an +indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after +February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear +to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come +that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all +that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would +not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, +an action on his part that would keep them separated? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they +had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when +he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that +Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, +that she preferred the more independent situation. + +Mr. JENNER. State? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on +his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not +continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might +not continue to live in the Dallas area? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary. + +Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have +described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, +did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in +mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some +other manner or means? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a +figment of the imagination of Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon +which I could judge, was false. + +Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available +appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context +of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +What? It was written some time after the baby had been born? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three +letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has +identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her +mother. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine +Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had +actually been dispatched by you. + +Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the +Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with +you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his +family? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If +so, would your answer be the same? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and +places if any particular discussion stands out. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing +she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. +Marina also talked to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or +advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he +didn't wish her---- + +Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his +family to know that the child Rachel had been born? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and +Robert's wife in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been +able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked +both of them. + +I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same +company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think +in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early +November that he had been---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton. + +Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the +Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best +of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November +22, 1963, that he had two brothers? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there +being another brother, but I am not certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise +that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was +avoiding contact with his brother and his mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression---- + +Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact +with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was +employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was +using it to receive communications? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had +anything been said about his renting a post office box? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we +had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main +post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a +post office box there. But that was---- + +Mr. JENNER. What date was this? + +Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think---- + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main +post office. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been +was that day. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail? + +Mrs. PAINE. Magazines, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the +service? + +Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said +Marine Corps on them. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in +the Marines? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall. + +Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any +of his experiences in the Marines? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early +November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had +had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his +past life, for instance his having been in Japan. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had +related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time? + +Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was +unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley +Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, +accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in +January-February, I don't know just when. + +Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. + +Mr. JENNER. Of this year? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us? + +Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York +Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from +her. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going +over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the +School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place +where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back +to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I +answered whatever she wanted to know. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin +the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole +thing back to her. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with +Mrs. Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered +one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four--no; perhaps +as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and +some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of +people. We have also had some communication by telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and +Tuesday? + +Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of +Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your +responses? Telephone, or otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home +I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he +is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say +that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say +that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a +public conclusion that he was guilty. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to +your door? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been +limited to what you have testified? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or +crusade or whatever it may be? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer +questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I +know. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's +personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your +overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages. + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us +if you would. Start at the beginning. + +Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to +send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want +to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly +didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked +unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on +really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening +of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the +afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so +as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had +directly with him. + +And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout +my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and +September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to +during that time that impression, which I carried at that time. + +When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I +was impressed quite differently. + +He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to +my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my +home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the +baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be +happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with +a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that +evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly +in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to +see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and +then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire. + +And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my +mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he +could. + +Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on +the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one +letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he +tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, +that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful +of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was +because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings +of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to +Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought +someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. +Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I +think while---- + +Mr. JENNER. His only human contact? + +Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and +while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, +he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have +reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so +that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip +during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who +wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to +achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and +raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with +people and be congenial when he made efforts to be. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically---- + +Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the +record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned +that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in +September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I +felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at +this initial party when I first met him. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out +weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, +wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor +much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I +never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent +person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent +hostility towards an individual. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt +frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching +were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were +unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the +concept in which he regarded himself? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt +successful. + +As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. +But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he +had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should +achieve in the world. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective +or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid +social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within +was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a +book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a +meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and +I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the +people there. + +And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where +he was working at this last place. + +Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little +things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety +valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They +came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an +emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that +what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities +of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt. + +Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, +but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the +assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as +a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in +the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show +feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was +something that you could understand? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something---- + +Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw. + +Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. As a child. + +I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making +friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was +guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words. + +Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone. + +Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt? + +Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right. + +Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted? + +Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then +he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this +feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked +her? That is what I am getting at. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted +to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered +by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did +have very personal talks about our respective marriages. + +But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full +bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish +to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her +devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little +girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, +and of raising these children. + +I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to +try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good +marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do +her best for it. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, +of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a +position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, +almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other +words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and +stage in life. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31. + +Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and +our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore. + +Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having +met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, +and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick +up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. +That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have +have been formed from what people said and not directly formed. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you +really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you +have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my +husband. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. +Martin are. + +Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. +Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she +lived at his home for some time after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the +door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him +before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come +with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been +on that occasion. + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him +a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for +Marina, containing notes and checks of donations. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened +them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to +Marina, this sort of thing. + +And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the +house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when +Robert had come to get the remaining items. + +From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained +the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, +and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home +it was not my particular intention to see her. + +I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me +some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and +with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I +wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home. + +I came--perhaps I should interrupt here. + +Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really +best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these +are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be +better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there. + +Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have +any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at +least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last +time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d +to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the +evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call +from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the +assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what? + +Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. +I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home +now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this +terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for +Look Magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good +thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial +remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me +in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with +Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. +Ford was the first time she and I had talked. + +Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's +number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. +Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself +to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that +this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more +fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to +this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning +you." + +Mr. JENNER. They don't know? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" +referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to +friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling +that in time she would certainly contact me again. + +Mr. JENNER. Has she? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on +it. + +Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't +suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving. + +Mr. JENNER. May I see it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for +you. + +The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked +me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't +feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship +had ended so badly. + +Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes? + +Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt +at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went +out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife +what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to +express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was +being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the +Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with +her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where +she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that +occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced +that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am +going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of +this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have +reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. +And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive +her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted +to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any +animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to +convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal +things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to +do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and +regards you well and would be in contact with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would +have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became +uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't +erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue +to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or +what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything +of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it +appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already +been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a +very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer +than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I +just don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home +in Richardson, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape +recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text +onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and +to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad +to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone +wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she +called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice +if Marina made the recording, since Marina---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she +suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go +from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, +I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it +involved making a recording that night. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at +Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the +entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her +furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me +when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite +accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to +have a home of her own. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your +immediate objective of having a recording? + +Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, +also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina +really needed to take care of June, who was there, also. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was +friendly or at least that she was not averse? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I +might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by +making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my +own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had. + +Mr. JENNER. She has? + +Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred. + +Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry +with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had +advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had +understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that +this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having +Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie +as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was +relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. +Thorne. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January. + +Mr. JENNER. Of this year? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had +delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry? + +Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of +men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to +me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all +his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very +detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being +done? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had +signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone +else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he +told me, no, she had not delegated that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected +from her friends, and that had no one---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected +from? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to +me. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an +earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who +spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or +the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was +concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to +Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said---- + +Mr. JENNER. She said---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I +knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on +the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper. + +Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime? + +Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of +attorney. + +Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with +Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed +that? Is there anything you would like to add? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a +brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes +that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone +perfectly free to say anything we wanted. + +Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit +with Marina pleasant? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period +you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt +about you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the +strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the +events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask +directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with +that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. +Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and +Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my +profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she +has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I +don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that +there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a +simple relationship. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, +renewing, it may not be the right word. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct +break. + +Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of +that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked +with her face to face? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do +some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was +going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going +to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to +Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina +implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she +will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart +for Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. +This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom +I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She +has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some +of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a +good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I +was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, +yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he +came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely +fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present +a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, +possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be +unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence +and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of +an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and +state domination. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what +she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating +the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by +the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact +that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that +she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it. + +Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that +until I read it in the paper after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the +paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with +Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, +many of them. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or +desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United +States? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several +occasions that she---- + +Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now. + +Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She +expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to +raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English +and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she +entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June +maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only +learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, +thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her +expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any +particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality. + +Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of +more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of +Spanish, but it is completely gone now. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have +the opportunity. + +Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on +your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like +to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry +on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke--that is your +brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar +itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. February? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written +at the time and some were put in later. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., +Minsk. That was written in later. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year +in there? + +Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February +that has relation to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" +crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure +when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned +later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this +page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that +says, "Everett's?" + +Mr. JENNER. Entered where? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this---- + +Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the +upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the +upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed +by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after. + +Mr. JENNER. After? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on +March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to +say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the +calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read? + +Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought +someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, +and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was +off by a month as to what day it was. + +Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October? + +Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November. + +Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23? + +Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23. + +Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been +November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on +the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise +the date you made an entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name +until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey +and his initial was H? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date. + +Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time--it happens to be also on +March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had +scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred +to in one of the letters as "until the 20th." + +Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Any others? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the +calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, +April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above +the word "dinner." That has been testified to. + +Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on---- + +Mr. JENNER. An entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name +appears, this time written in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April +with an arrow. + +Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which +would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, +picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on +the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words +"Lee and Marina." + +Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs? + +Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee +Wedding Anniversary two years ago." + +Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the +fall. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar +referring to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's take May. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May +1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This +recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we +saw the movie War and Peace. + +Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry---- + +Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New +Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July. + +Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." +This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that +her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the +right date, and that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any +entries relating to the Oswalds on that date? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for +September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning +New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans +to go back to---- + +Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event. + +Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." +meaning New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made? + +Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back. + +Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come +back? + +Mrs. PAINE. Sure. + +Mr. JENNER. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2. + +Could you finish this calendar? + +Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. +There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that +has been referred to in testimony previously. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland +Hospital for the birth of her child? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee +birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday." + +Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland +Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, +when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L +start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down +after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start +working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work +start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be +Parkland. I would be certain it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the +occurrence of the events they seek to record? + +Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made +after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the +same day that he received the acceptance. + +Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that +corrected entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many +people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary +sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following +by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th +that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one +word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 +p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces." + +Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That +means exactly what it says. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered +contemporaneously with the event? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it +sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and +sometimes to record past events after they had occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas +"Junie" she had a clinic appointment. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my +testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other +than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a +doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the +day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means +that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half. + +Mr. JENNER. What day is this? + +Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty +recalling whether Lee actually visited your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he +wasn't out. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November +1. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or +come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. + +Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it +means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind +you that she had a dental appointment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already +referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until +about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at +the Fifth Street address at my home. + +Mr. JENNER. What date is this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the +morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what +home means. + +He was at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. +June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB +clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed +to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" +and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis. + +In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, +"1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I +would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was +changed. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin +to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had +X-rays taken. + +Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Have you identified all three entries now? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental +clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference. + +There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar." + +Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn? + +Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my +daughter to which I have testified. + +There is also in pencil---- + +Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it +is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month +that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or +next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina. + +This brings us to December. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent +curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that +visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the +purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on +that score? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first +mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth +control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go +with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic +to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further +conceptions if she wished to. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just +casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability +of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, +that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her +own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as +they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size +family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and +Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large +family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and +it is difficult to support a very large family. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting +or session, visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was? + +Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of +the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December. + +There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, +and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these +appointments was kept. + +There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." +The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for +inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already +mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I +might have skipped that. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you did. + +Mrs. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock." + +Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child? + +Mrs. PAINE. June. + +Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well? + +Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should +come in about four weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. That Marina should? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. The baby June? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the +first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should +be older before giving her the first inoculation. + +Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring +the baby for the first time to that clinic? + +Of course, that never took place. + +Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change +the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving +at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation +was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we +decided to maintain that clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been +discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an +expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the +1st of the year? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and +this just adds to that indication. + +Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to +the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, +joining him in Dallas. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. To live with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks". + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. + +No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, +followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the +TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB +children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she +was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November. + +Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on +November 5, 1963---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with +that an entry on December 5, 1963---- + +Mrs. PAINE. December 3. + +Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds +of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her +husband by the first of the year. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that. + +Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in +Irving---- + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, +though they might have records of it. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after +the baby was born. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there +was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had +been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and +she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in +Irving. + +Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street +Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I +discussed where it would be best for her to have her---- + +Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to +just continue in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Because---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Return to the record. + +Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I +don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write +down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic +where you go if a child is ailing. + +Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned +of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building +to the TB clinic. + +Oh, no; I recall now why we went. + +At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of +October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial +Clinic. + +Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June +has--I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except +that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that +collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy. + +Mr. JENNER. It was on Marina's? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby +clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this +connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went +for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my +calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary +for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more +forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then +get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her +children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that +was done. + +My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th +of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final +notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe +I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum +check at Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. For Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, +too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret +Service. That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, +have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your +acquaintance with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised. + +Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why? + +Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this +arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well +before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the +Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was +concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether +or not they could pay for it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which +sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15. + +(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + + +The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission +Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that +what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, +and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the +Oswalds? + +The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, +and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the +entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the +address book. + +Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, +the left and right hand. + +Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance. + +Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is +employed? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand. + +Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B. + +Mr. JENNER. I am what? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B. + +Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of +the B page, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met +both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first +page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page +of the D page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first +page of the D page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first +page of the E page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there. + +Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of +the E page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the +F page. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents +Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer +trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I +wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she +did not understand me. And I heard other people--there is a book store +where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and +had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And---- + +Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this +incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't +know English fluently to get a job--if there were a Russian-speaking +community, where Russian could be used. That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G +page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G +page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the +name of her son-in-law appears here. + +Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is? + +Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov. + +Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has +appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else. + +Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there. + +Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to +that in your testimony? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an +address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will +help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to +it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without +that service it will be neither delivered or returned. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with +any of your association with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have +their address. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page. + +Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian +student appears here, Bill Hootkins. + +Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. +Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two +pages--the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite +page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any +entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them? + +Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my +relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and +that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance. + +Mr. JENNER. Next would be--there are some empty pages. We better record +that fact. The reverse side---- + +Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit. + +Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your +address book. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit. + +Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages +that have some entries on them, were not photostated. + +Mrs. PAINE. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the +picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to +the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top +of the list of letters. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here. + +Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top +letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are +entries also. Look at both pages, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret. + +Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their +address or their name correct during the summer. + +Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans +that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, +and you made an entry in your address book? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in +testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, +summer Russian school. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the +sheet, the top letter of which is M. + +Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same +person--Helen Mamikonian. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which +is N. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have +testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, +heretofore? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is +the letter P. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made +because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their +clinic and hospital, for Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which +is Q. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R. + +Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts. + +Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors? + +Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which +refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in +testimony--that is Frolick and Pen Rainey. + +Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled +F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page +is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some +strange reason is also S. It is the opposite---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list +the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known +from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was +chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of +the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top +letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page +to the left of that. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as +U. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. + +Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y. + +Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as +testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the +Youngs? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my +relatives. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is. + +Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles +Morris--those are your in-laws? + +Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young. + +Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father? + +Mrs. PAINE. Father. + +Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, +Michael Ralph Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your +husband, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your +reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your +reflections on her personality generally, and her character and +integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she? + +Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to +me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. +She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other +Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word +I didn't understand. + +She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help +around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, +unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I +did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare +meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are +many people, of confidence and lack of confidence. + +She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. +But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn +to pronounce--to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider +that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I +think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself +that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did +not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up +enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she +could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified +to this. + +I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did--I +should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, +as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of +this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and +guarded her own personal privacy. + +She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to +me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times +that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in +Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she +enjoyed. + +She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and +when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for +now as a young mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something +out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America +while she was in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. +I think she meant dreamed while sleeping. + +Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that +she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, +willingness to come to America? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had +married Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly +divorced from Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's +personality, her character, her integrity. + +Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective +beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations +of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, +that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this +faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places +as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were +something to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward +religion as negative or positive? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, +except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this +country? + +Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me +in March of 1963--one of the first times I went to see her at their +apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for +June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. +I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony +without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at +that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't +tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal +certificate, or refer to it freely. + +Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise +occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people +who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young +Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and +attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much +the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this +paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing +many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech +by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And +she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed +interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always +turned to this portion---- + +Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really +expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I +can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years +before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia +originating in America, in the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the +United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and +live in this country? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. + +She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling +in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she +commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and +how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time +prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, +attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with +regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and +then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of +course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only. + +Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think +you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar +as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a +woman. + +Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I +have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my +modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different +sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a +particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess +that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that +feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me. + +Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it +was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked +me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both +because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. +And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly +financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully +convinced her. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or +add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether +Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the +Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. + +Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have +been? + +Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't +exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have +knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different +from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on +the evening of the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station. + +Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police +station? + +Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a +little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, +and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, +standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a +spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her +voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or +most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through +translation from Lee, and that she thought---- + +Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something +about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about +them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was +said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought +that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would +have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such +indication of dislike from Lee to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why? + +Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it. + +Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to +relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her +groping as to why her husband committed this act? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive +way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the +same way she told me that---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how +could he have said these things or called her attention to these things +with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not +understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, +because of this, could not have assassinated the President? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not +concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting +to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She +also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had +said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she +could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of +hurt. + +Mr. JENNER. Hurt what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about +it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of +caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with +her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could +he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which +would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in +the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and +hurt, rather than defense. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in +June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine +Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, +you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your +class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in +which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of +Russian. Do you recall such a letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I +wrote it. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of +languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Socially? + +Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were +recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others +who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen +pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in +Russian exchange." + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual +skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use. + +Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference +in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word +"calling" in the testimony. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study +of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very +words--intellectual decision? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable. + +Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual +decision. + +Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October +1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those +back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what +was--Essie? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my +mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying +Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you +might have said then? + +Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the +time than I do now. + +Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now +recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, +are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that +development in your life to undertake the study of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you +gave us yesterday, of course. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with +Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of +which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now +recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting +interviews by the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of +Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the +nature of the work, his fellow employees? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work. + +Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the +subject of his military service? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. His political views? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all. + +Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read. + +Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's +treatment of Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of +his dishonorable discharge from the Marines? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. By either she or him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one. + +Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware +of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he +reached Russia and attempted to defect---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at +the time that you met the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he +had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, +the word is. + +Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor +Connally? + +Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your +presence of his dreams or aspirations? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and +aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she +would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I +mentioned it. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the +meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine +articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her? + +Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina +appeared. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score? + +Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading. + +Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading? + +Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that +some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted? + +Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect +of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press +would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With +which I disagreed. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and +had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I +thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten +from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to +her of their sympathy and support. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on +March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions +voluntarily? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us that. + +Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager +whom she is trying to fire. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people +in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful +notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on +the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation +for themselves. And she concurred in that. + +Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction? + +Did she indicate an awareness of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that +she thought that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee +Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, +and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to +obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can +recall that you have not told us? + +Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee +Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being +returned to Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication +of that to me at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of +his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the +summer of 1963 or any other time? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, +that he had obtained or had applied for a passport? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee +Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting +President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations +on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the +Kennedys? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the +attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you +have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them +with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the +Communist Party in the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the +Communist Party in the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers +Party. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's +personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who +sought his own comfort, his own consolation? + +I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, +to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to +prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to +make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he +is reticent, retiring. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as +a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, +therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal. + +But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of +the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that +he was at my house. + +And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the +people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or +watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed +rather than as a social event. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear +on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this +investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, +his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he +visited? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, +or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after +work hours in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been +to the National Indignation Committee meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of +what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, +or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his +time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent +evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the +room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, +guessed that he made use of that opportunity. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you +have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat +lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was +not generally accepted as a man of capacity? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence +in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of +himself, these operating at the same time. + +I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at +the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his +feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, +and he was glad to have it. + +I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert +as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family +and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. +Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were +very legitimate interests. + +Mr. JENNER. In his presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had +said when he was not there. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression +of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a +nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that +is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation +with Mrs. Gravitis? + +Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about +their life in the United States up to that point? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster +than I could follow it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that +conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get +work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work +going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath +the dignity of her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have +just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were +available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what +Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at +the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to +handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the +mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more +this nature, than indicating being above such things. + +Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction +work generally physically difficult? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the +Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some +comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at +least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them +rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth +because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that +conversation that her husband was an idealist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall +whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with +Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that +I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague +impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. +But it is very hard for me to get a hold of. + +Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been +that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a +conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina +admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory. + +Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son? + +Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is +vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken +place. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the +opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League +for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever +joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot +recall having had any contact with that group? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature. + +Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make +any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. +Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not +emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating +yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with +Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests. + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest. + +Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any +such motivation? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it +is in the record. You are a pacificist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as +rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising +a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular +situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my +behavior. + +Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, +or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or +character? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to +the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, +appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles +and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November +22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an +overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, +particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as +to what the actual facts were and are? + +Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that. + +First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on +the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular +story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material. + +I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read +and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story +does not refer to things I personally know about. + +On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty +accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of +what was reported of what I said. + +I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, +that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house +when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet---- + +Mr. JENNER. Perused? + +Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They +are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have +tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very +far. + +I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief +over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much +more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just +makes more poignant my grief. + +Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's +memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were +mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or +whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. +Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not +certain where such a street might be. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry +there is in the diary. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce. + +Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, +otherwise, that rings no bell. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Training? + +Mr. JENNER. Trn. + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ. + +Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality? + +Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. +Organ, 1733 Spring. + +Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me. + +May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, +I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce. + +Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned +was Spring; is that right? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in +any respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was +living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends? + +Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday +evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, +as I have testified. + +Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his +quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to +his quarters? + +Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then +sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 +of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket +wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you +would have done? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there. + +And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration +of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of +course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to +consider the situation that I am in and react according to that +situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief. + +I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of +reach of children or out of sight of children. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had +you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, +what is your present thought as to what you might have done with +respect to advising the FBI of its existence? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered +it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in +Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the +assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a +rifle, a deer rifle. + +I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no +consequence or interest to them. + +Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your +knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with +Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of +the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee +Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the +existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was +for any other purpose than deer hunting. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to +November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought +there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey +Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the +Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that +Government? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry. + +Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to +Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when +Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October +1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase. + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect? + +I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn. + +Mrs. PAINE. On what day? + +Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of +October. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that. + +Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the +front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from +Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind +or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out +of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my +impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of +October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, +and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 +to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other +than the green zipper bag? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being +used by him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion +ever one discussed between you and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our +first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, +after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she +told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't +believe in abortion. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards +her avoiding a larger family? + +Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I +think probably I might have covered them all. + +Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you +understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not +seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or +empathy or aversion to it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is +rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may +be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or +governmental system. + +Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative +Ford's inquiry. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in +any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the +whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or---- + +Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or +admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or +philosophy, you have an aversion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course +in college included a few readings from Karl Marx. + +Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to +your work at Antioch College as a student? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto? + +Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course. + +Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was +limited to the college course? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das +Capital, would your answers be the same? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not +want to read it. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it. + +Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course? + +Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would +have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider +yourself a Communist. + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not. + +Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the +American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that +organization? + +Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have +been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the +time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became +on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That +chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist +others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage +them; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of +your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a +conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he +was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be +of interest to the Civil Liberties Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what +possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble +eventually? + +Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just +referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that +organization to him personally. + +Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any +time for counsel? + +Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the +Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending +people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt +that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld. + +Mr. JENNER. Or might be? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether +Lee understood that. + +Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to +proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in +this area or subject than you have now given? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the +telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name. + +Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us +how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian +language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you +can. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by +saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary. + +Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native +Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am +talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and +these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one +does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it +gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or +taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with +some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection +that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because +I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and +because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to +do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to +learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know +the language, though I am fluent in it. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are. + +You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say +as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of +grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old? + +Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary---- + +Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction. + +Mrs. PAINE. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual +conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of +speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in +Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an +8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many +more mistakes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when +you compose a letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can +think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes +occur in it. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian +language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 +was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months +that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and +certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly. + +Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your +command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you +judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to +vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally? + +Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had +less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language? + +Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or +not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed +to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did +read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian +newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and +magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get +the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive +perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it +and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for +example, pigeon English use of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I +have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what +I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very +large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the +words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off. + +Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as +near as you can tell? + +Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of +the Russian language, or his use of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did +not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time +in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian +was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke +better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall +her saying it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know +whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, +but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was +embarrassed. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in +Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will +be in addition to anything you have already told us. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my +testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I +think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to +obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties +in that connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this. + +Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have +not testified to on that particular subject---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to +Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have +not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in +Russia, that you might have learned through Marina. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for +all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of +time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I +gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there +a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, +as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their +steamship passage. + +Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they +had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by +himself in Minsk, which was unusual. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a +little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. +And I gather that she moved into it after they were married. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that +she lived there. Is this relevant to your question? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, +which I ghosted to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several +times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood +relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that +this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. +Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all +about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also +said was unusual. + +Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense? + +Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to +financially. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a +position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife +did not have to work? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes. + +She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and +her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections +I have of their time in Minsk? + +Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia. + +Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at +Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation +with her, I know she was born 2 months early. + +Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths +of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a +tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge +later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her +upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position? + +Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this +was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina +described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her +grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, +that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and +stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a +neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this +man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her +stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger +brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. +I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked +Leningrad, was proud of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, +or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from +Leningrad to Minsk? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented +to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were +many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have +the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work +there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and +work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move +from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about +the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so--that you +don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You +have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your +papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or +apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you +don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this +country. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the +difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that +she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. +She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people +are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still +remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good +work or they didn't stay on the job. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the +system? Russia from that in the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods, +and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were +much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was +impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to +loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan +things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure +that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You +could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and +necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, +and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she +found here. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was +hospitalized in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it. + +Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her +description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk +hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot +think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any +reference to it--I am not sure I remember now. + +Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction +in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in +my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he +love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself +to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without +occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to +whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been +at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's +part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or +certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an +argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own +views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, +than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more +relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that +her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather +it was a healthy thing. + +Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us +here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and +published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, +that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to +exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or +opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality +formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but +also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe +what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made +of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of +enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, +but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more +tendencies to--among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and +things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of +the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now +relate? + +Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that +I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting +things going on under the surface. + +I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at +Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office +one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad +use intended for it. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's +sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have +about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her +personally. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time. + +Mrs. PAINE. You wish my opinion now? + +It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described +interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and +that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation +in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the +hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some +of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from +the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, +judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by +Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer. + +Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And +I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and +this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she +might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was +going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case. + +Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in +what sense? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a +passport to get him to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that +he applied for a passport? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that +application and the fact that he received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? +That is what I am getting at. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell +the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put +to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to +tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, +as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount +of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of +any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, +just in terms of time. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected--of course, you must +understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were +opened on her examination. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is +a---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what +her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable +one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling +the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in +that judgment by having been present when she could not positively +identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police +station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she +positively identified it here at the Commission. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable +to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her +was her husband's rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now +being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without +fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on +subjects such as that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do +something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever +mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with +respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of +truth or sense of frankness? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as +friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of +course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me +about something is quite different from telling me something that is +misleading to the whole truth of the situation. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure +to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in +it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would +be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with +her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only +explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is +that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what +I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I +would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have +felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee +would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no +need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI +has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with +Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a +shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the +content of a note. + +I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to +someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the +information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I +deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him. + +And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing +on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought +she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely +dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press +is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for +Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir +up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had +Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think +that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor. + +Mr. JENNER. Batista? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes--which is not saying a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in +mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to +what you understand to be the Castro regime. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks +to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly +object to. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand +it, that it is liberal or reactionary? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as +to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New +Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he +said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was +engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure +employment in Houston. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that +period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of +September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th +of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you +ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily +arise? + +Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she? + +Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she +did. + +Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8. + +Mr. JENNER. When did she arise? + +Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep +a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than +her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done +in her own apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later +or earlier? + +Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up +later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself +into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all +correspondence that she received at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she +got a letter from a girl friend, Galya. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered +in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind. + +Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she +reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she +retained them after living in this country? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she +arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you +know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or +Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part? + +Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which +my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds? + +Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately. + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either +you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and +Marina and Lee together? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil +Liberties Union meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even +acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest? + +Mrs. PAINE. With Marina? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee--did you have any? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not really. + +Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching. + +Mr. JENNER. That's about all? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's it. + +Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us +everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about +any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one +hand and Marina on the other? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest +in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in +Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it. + +Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things +that come up in connection with children. + +Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with +either of them, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. No--that's right. You mean which took us to a group with +other people? + +Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She +occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities. + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and +sources of funds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with +Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket +package and the gun in the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any +conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have +related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your +home on the 22d of November, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with +Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time. + +Mr. JENNER. Or use of it. + +I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of +questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry +firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home +or premises. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in +mind. + +I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have +reached the end. + +You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the +Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in +evidence. + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in +the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when +he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in +Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances +or friends in Houston? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said +he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so +or not. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends +in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in +Philadelphia. + +Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go +and look. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while +she was at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from +New Orleans on May 9th. + +Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other? + +Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or +otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been +tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo +handler at $310 per month? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that. $310 a month? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment +at the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been +able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo +handler at $310 per month. + +Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell +through--that there was not that possibility. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the +time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to---- + +Mr. JENNER. How did it come about? + +Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed. + +Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas +School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by +the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency +I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not +available to him. + +Mr. JENNER. But that was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job +itself. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine +Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian." + +(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for +identification.) + +It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed +"Ruth." + +Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be +a translation familiar to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note +accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which +carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and +they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 +the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having +examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it. + +Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and +previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your +recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what +you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian +language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had +forgotten. + +Mr. JENNER. Having that---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description---- + +Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to +add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when +you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially +useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great +deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I +mention some. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, +when? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. +I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in +Russian exchange. + +Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am +opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to +study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. +Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right +here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual +decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought +out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the +expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from +your--inner prompting. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. +Paine--your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the +evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following +morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's +license application bureau. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on +Friday, but came on Saturday morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would think so. + +Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter +before he went to the driver training location. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having +used your typewriter, you mean the evening before? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to +be fairly soon after breakfast. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's +license bureau, he used your typewriter? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the +driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on +Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that +he had come to your home the night before as usual. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and +then you all departed for the driver's license bureau. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more +than one occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. About how many? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add +to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just +parking. Three lessons altogether. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk +secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Just English. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question. + +Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those +lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your +husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except your question. + +Mr. JENNER. Pardon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except your question. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with +leading questions. + +Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed +any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a +President or anyone holding high public office? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your +home that you saw such a movie on television? + +Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his +looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to +call the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I +am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal. + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that +incident. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that +discussion. + +Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly +gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection +with his securing employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, +making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of +course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for +the Manner Bakery. + +Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum +Co.? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider +possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a +truck, delivery truck. + +Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or +home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said +anything about whether he was a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join +the Communist Party while he was in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that +evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone +call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the +assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., +which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over +some time to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my +house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and +in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came? + +Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you +completed your full recollection of the incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did +come. + +Mr. JENNER. And when did he come? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at +Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on +Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the +best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following Tuesday. + +My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what +time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have +been making dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another +occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we +certainly planned to get together again. + +Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his +coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question. + +Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you +have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald +incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of +the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which +you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything +of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt +on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any +importance. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you +know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22. + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including +November 22. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you +ought to say or wish to say about that incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two +Secret Service men. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina +one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, +that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the +Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which +were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child +care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently +reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's +"Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily +reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her. + +I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret +Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they +come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, +of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the +other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze +showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper +such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read +it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I +could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. +I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was +written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the +English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than +the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And +that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his +impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. +And I said---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that--I +repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly +have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was +current, and he did not say. + +We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying +that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and +tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, +"I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went +over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he +volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must +have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my +having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that +seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left. + +Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker +having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain +I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported +by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at +the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some +of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office +box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. +Gopadze. + +I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement +to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the +Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently +irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the +executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this +information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, +because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell +anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested +enough to have made such a call himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th +after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in +the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau. + +Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon? + +Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay +as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, +he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian +language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television? + +Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when +you returned? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any +chance stop by a car dealers? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have +been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it +took you to go to the polls to vote that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the +grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my +sight for any length of time. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home +or within your general presence all day. + +Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for +activities of the 10th? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to +which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched +pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening +after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at +the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I +would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me +in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already +said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission +Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that +testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the +top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into +the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. +I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the +furniture in the room around. + +Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is +Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it +inside the secretary. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting +for it to be picked up. + +Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first +noticed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to +that weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during +that period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your +home, to have made a tape recording? + +Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not +work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have +been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop. + +Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his +shop. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At his quarters? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work. + +Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have +made any tape recording. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any +agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of +the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could +not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the +rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun +range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., +residing or staying as a guest in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough +for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can +recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence +at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, +there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he +was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home +unless you walk or have someone drive you. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility +of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose? + +Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly +about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my +vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to--definite plans to +teach for the summer. + +She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there +might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there +were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of +Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite +excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she +referred to it. + +After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to +be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such +an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged. + +Mr. JENNER. And you so told her? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter. + +Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this +letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I +want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your +tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite +detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been +very helpful. + +On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our +appreciation. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help. + +Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time. + +Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition. + +Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist +upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel +to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I +now put that question to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that +typed up for me to read before going back to Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read +before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to +Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested +to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right +to do so. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + +The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, +1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. +Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the +deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the +Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on +Saturday. + +Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear +you? + +Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are +about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm. + +Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe +Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service. + +We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's +home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the +presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's +full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 +feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining +room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast +corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast +corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house +consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have +just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That +particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West +Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north +wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom +in that neither of these windows is a picture window. + +Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture +window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of +it--it's around 43 inches wide. + +Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then? + +(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements +discussed.) + +Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you +recite it, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches +high. + +Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches +high? + +Agent HOWLETT. Right. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches? + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the +curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, +as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe +you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in +the evidence? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best. + +(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to +comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed +himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate +as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of +the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he +made his second visit to you, and have you done so? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I +cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of +my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's +other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that +should be easily determined by asking the repair shop. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, +at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now +see Mr. Howlett's car. + +Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. +I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the +picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue. + +Mrs. PAINE. Street. + +Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is +that, an elm or oak? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak. + +Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is +in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, +John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile +is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb +at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and +cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a +cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of +Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of +the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans +substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which +is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home +that's not now used. + +Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year. + +Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, +and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year. + +It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you +last fall? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream +automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the +west side of the Paine premises? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check +me on this standing where I am, looking out this window. + +It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on +either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described. + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles? + +Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both +automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of +the numbers. + +Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let +alone make out the numbers? + +Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now. + +(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as +well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore +mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises +outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children +and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to +the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being +conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the +taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or +described my observations looking through the picture window first on +Fifth Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and +the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could +not be seen in the way of a license plate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for +a second time to interview you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that +day--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st +of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm +not sure--absolutely certain of that. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold. + +Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number +of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home. + +Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence +and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by +implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on +the FBI automobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have +drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview +in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on +the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I +noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the +street on the first interview, and it seems to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that. + +Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to +his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point +that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their +visits. + +Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car +down the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first time. + +Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which +way was "down the street," to the west or to the east? + +Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term? + +Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best +recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the +Ponders used to live in. + +Mr. JENNER. The whom? + +Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders. + +Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]? + +Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the +brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east. + +Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and +whatever it is--you know, Westbrook. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad? + +Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the +Randles. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other +way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he +parked when he first came to talk with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that +day--November 1st? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two +men drive away? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I +did. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license +plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November +1st? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision? + +Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate +could have been seen with 20-20 vision? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that +recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty +left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my +attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did +not notice whether he passed in front of the house. + +Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with +normal vision. + +Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix +definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen +the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to +whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have +you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have none. + +Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as +you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet +away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of +your home as we have now noted on the fifth. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower? + +Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on +Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before +dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings +when he was here? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower +in any event on the morning of November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of +November 22d, except an empty coffee cup. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of +yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north +side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the +back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom +where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a +noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it? + +Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not +noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to +get that--whether you could hear it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it. + +Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might +well awaken you if it's turned on? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when +you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower +had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have +noticed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is. + +Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning +and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then +gone? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your +awakening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I +awoke. + +(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements +in the hallway of the Witness Paine.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 +feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south +at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, +9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide. + +The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the +garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 +bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth +Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, +I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, +am I not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the +combination kitchen-dining room? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on +the left is a doorway entering into your living room? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door +jamb to the right or west? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what? + +Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the +outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb +of the garage door, however, let's get the outside. + +Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside +jamb. + +Mr. JENNER. So that the space west---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate +the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before +I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how +wide is that? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door. + +Mr. JENNER. And how high? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8-1/2 inches and it would actually be +classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall +which lights the light in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the +door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for? + +Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area. + +Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light +switch appeared, did it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which +included that area. + +Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it. + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to +the center of the light switch? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6-3/4 inches to the center of the +light switch. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the +FBI photograph. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the +garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full +door facing onto Fifth Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I +arrived? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first +there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. +Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. +Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your +garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on? + +Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner +and turned on the light.) + +Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you +enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches? + +Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from +the dining room area? + +Agent HOWLETT. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less +than a hand's length away, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage +in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to +the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape +against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth +Street. What is the length to the dining room wall? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across. + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of +your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe +it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except +for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from +east to west; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep. + +Mr. JENNER. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area +wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the +floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. And I judge--well, John Joe, we might as well measure that +while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to +the ceiling? + +Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 +inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The +opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches +tall. + +Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the +blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, +which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time +have been placed in the storeroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so. + +Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open +to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the +storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents +for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in +there in the storeroom. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When you +hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth +birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the +blanket wrapped package in the storeroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, +necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small +storeroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that +small storeroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday +evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described +last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in +that small storeroom had it been there? + +Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that +there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as +I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, +the length of your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet? + +Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some +considerable period of time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion---- + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now? + +Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out. + +Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over. + +Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the +fall of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never have. + +Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I +have never tried to lift it with my arms up. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your +home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat +out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan. + +Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on +the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in +the ceiling? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, +if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up +there, correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. It could have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of +1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of +the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, +did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your +house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that. + +Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were +present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street +side back to your dining room area, does it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the +living room to the wall of the house on the west? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our +presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you +noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of +Counsel Jenner.) + +The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of +the work bench, halfway to the band saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the +center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west +wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, +a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then +underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk. + +Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left +and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench +also--are all these things now in the position they were on November +22d? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from +October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position. + +Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch +in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west +wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is +piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench +in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, +Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition +it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the +outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage. + +Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from +the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place. + +There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the +west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece +of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the +band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, +resting on the garage floor itself, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space? + +Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches. + +Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate +"Machinery Sales" and the like on it. + +The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the +band saw is what, John Joe? + +Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a +piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and +I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and +place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's it. + +(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of +Counsel Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed +that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was +when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November +22. + +Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how +many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and +ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. +Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. +My recollection is not that clear. + +Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best +recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of +the desk underneath the work bench? + +Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than +that piece is. + +Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the +outside edge of the package was. + +Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge? + +Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside? + +Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory +as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was +when I stood here or here? + +Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. +Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work +bench? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, +that would be the width of the package between those two boards. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath +the work bench to the nearest edge of the package? + +Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside +edge, or most easterly edge of the package? + +Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when +was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the +second time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and +that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer +just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your +recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the +garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to +and including the 22d of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be +better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed +it. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in +the vicinity of the rotary saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the +east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but +between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band +saw; am I correct about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece +of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And how wide? + +Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw +itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, +measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion +of the saw table? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so +that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and +inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage +door, which is down in place? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch +package and relocate it where you first saw it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't +remember whether it went east or west or north or south. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west +or north or south, where was it when you saw it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw +table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings +of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was +either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described. + +The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is +suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east +wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw +table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and +the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing +underneath there. + +Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the +package on the floor earlier--the first time? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it +was. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those? + +Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers. + +Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of +the saw table. They are themselves how wide? + +Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch. + +Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist +of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches. + +Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet +1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is +in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the +package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was +filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space +between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest +of drawers? + +Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table. + +Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped +package was. + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on +the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can. + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the +saw table or out towards the front of their boxes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in +your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a +box, which is on the surface of the work bench. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in +turn tied or wrapped with string? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I +have in my hand, that is, this ball of string? + +Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as +heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has +exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will +cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine +Exhibit No. 271." + +(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits +Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, +Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string +which the witness has identified, is it not? + +Agent HOWLETT. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree +with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to +get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible. + +Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the +same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November +22, 1963, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the +policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, +or someone with the policeman? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in +the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who +first entered. I would guess it had been myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the +garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a +rifle located in the home? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that +occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the +police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that +most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the +room where Marina was staying. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate +your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you +walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if +any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back +here at the garage entrance? + +(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, +entering the garage.) + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many +policemen were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two or three. + +Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose? + +Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things +were in your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead +garage door? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east. + +Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen +there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described +to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, +however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that---- + +Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most +of the Oswald things were located. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage +facing south? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened? + +Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a +rifle or weapon, and I said, "No." + +Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at +the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away +from the work bench; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, +"No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this---- + +Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here +facing south. + +Mr. JENNER. She was facing you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, she was. + +Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end +of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, +which was in place? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she +knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time +previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which +she indicated the blanket roll. + +Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll? + +Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection +is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then +translated. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped +package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto? + +Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket. + +Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she +had said. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did +you feel anything hard? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it? + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or +a tent pole or anything as bulky as that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the +policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about +in its center, having in mind its length? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and +horizontal? + +Mrs. PAINE. It wilted. + +Mr. JENNER. It drooped? + +Mrs. PAINE. It folded. + +Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was +nothing in the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. In the blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were +still on the blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the +Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it? + +Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of +the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as +I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large +secretary desk in the dining area. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what +looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that +you had in your home on November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased +the previous wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of +this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet +that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide? + +Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, +please. We will now measure this. + +Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch. + +Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you +please cut this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.) + +Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just +cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." +Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter? + +(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine +Exhibit No. 272," for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is +startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the +Commission hearing last week. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such +articles. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, +some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that? + +Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on +November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you +as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"? + +(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. +273," for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk +secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white +string? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on +this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string +you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to +refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about +the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package? + +Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string +on the package, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be +marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274." + +(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. +274," for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand +now. Did you obtain that from that drawer? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record. + +Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the +Mexico note. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will +identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read +it the previous day. + +Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the +desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the +wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located? + +Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that +Sunday morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk +secretary was, if it is not here? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the--the middle +of the north wall of the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa +or a couch? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that +position? + +Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk +secretary. + +Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your +living room; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the +afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the +police called at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living +room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway +entering into your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were +sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located +at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all +the other furniture in the room. + +Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the +Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it +and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture? + +Mrs. PAINE. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of +November--that same day that I read the note. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to +move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of +the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary? + +Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there. + +Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when +you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing +toward Fifth Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the +south wall, drawn back? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed. + +Mr. JENNER. They were not closed? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each +side. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the +television that you did not notice the police come in to your door? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door. + +Mr. JENNER. Why not? + +Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and +Marina was to the west. + +Mr. JENNER. She was to your right? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't---- + +Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed +them coming? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it +[at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. +Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered +the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the +driveway side, which is on the west? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were +parked to the west of my driveway. + +Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the +door was closed---- + +Mrs. PAINE. As it was. + +Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed. + +Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he +agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching +from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not +have seen them as they approached from the west? + +Agent HOWLETT. No. + +Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police +had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the +door? + +Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened +the door. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here. + +(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by +Counsel Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, +John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the +doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite +these facts? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places +designated by Counsel Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a +moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some +bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close +to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree +which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade +tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a +moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of +the home to the sidewalk? + +Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. + +Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the +reporter what that distance is? + +The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the +depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area +is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area? + +Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west? + +Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we +have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late +afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home +from what direction? + +Mrs. PAINE. From the east. + +Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see +some considerable distance of a good block down the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your +surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the +premises? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this +block--that's across Westbrook. + +Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, +which is named Westbrook? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that's how far? + +Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down. + +Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, +their child? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the +house. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn. + +Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into +that a little bit. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the +record at this point.) + +Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you +sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, +late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came +to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and +parked your car? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the +driveway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile +when we actually exchanged greetings. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by +surprise or at least unexpectedly? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized. + +Mr. JENNER. Apology for what? + +Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised? + +Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say so? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her +attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was +unexpected as far as she was concerned? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As well as yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage +that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or +deep freeze in the garage, do you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right +up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion +of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage +dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct? + +Agent HOWLETT. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep. + +Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of +the door jam, westerly; is that correct? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall. + +Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze? + +Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze +that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens? + +Agent HOWLETT. That's right. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style. + +Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present +recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the +number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary +course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you +would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which +I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is one. + +Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks? + +Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, +Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes? + +Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a +box. They are what I call a large hollow block. + +Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are +sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play. + +Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden +blocks, does it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes +as a block and which I describe as a box? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long. + +Mr. JENNER. How deep? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on +the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call +a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one +side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not +correct? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five +sides and open on the top. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the +record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here. + +Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box. + +Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that +evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. That evening. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you? + +Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. And where were you working? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I +had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the +brush. + +Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end? + +Mrs. PAINE. The north end. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the +evening, am I correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you +entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take +them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to +lacquer them? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one +was in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went +into the garage to lacquer? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area. + +Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw. + +Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw? + +Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance +to the garage---- + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door? + +Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door +to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this +particular occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when +you opened the door, if anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on. + +Mr. JENNER. The light where? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. The overhead light? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the +ceiling of the garage, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is. + +Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center. + +Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks +like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs +downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the +ceiling; is that not right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in +place on the night in question? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what +watt it is? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of +the white walls. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say +"garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the +inside facing, which I see from this doorway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off. + +Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that +direction, had it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality. + +Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that +direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't +using the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at +that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on? + +Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on. + +Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock +that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion +that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart +from this particular circumstance you have now related? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in +and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some +time between the dinner hour and the time I entered. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your +kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the +fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes +and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually +impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without +your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would think so. + +Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the +dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area? + +Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the +kitchen-dining area at all. + +Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to +9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, +occasionally, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, +at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed +preparations. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been +in your garage without your knowing it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would +know it then too. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that +bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured +quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you +necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making. + +Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully +in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, +coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the +Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that +evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in +the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and +other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you +weren't present when they did that, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of +a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits +and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the +President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by +the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, +"Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the +home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on +Beckley Street in Dallas. + +Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice +each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, +whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as +the case might be. + +The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears +either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which +indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the +microfilm number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our +attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to +November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see +anything that I had seen or have since seen. + +Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you +don't miss anything. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is mine. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what +is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it. + +Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what? + +Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers. + +Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, +from the description--it is microfilm 198. + +Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, +the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the +one we have picked out--you have picked out? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all +those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your +home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of +those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk. + +"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, +but that's what I recall having seen. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen? + +Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment. + +Let's go off the record here for a moment. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper. + +Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy +pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring. + + + LITERATURE + + _Name_ _Place _Microfilm + found_ No._ + + Application, the Militant Irving 380 + Application slip for FPCC Beckley 416 + Application slips for FPCC (187) Irving 96 + Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," Irving 330 + by James Cannon. + Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity Irving 319 + with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC. + Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to Irving 307 + the U.S.," published by FPCC. + Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 Irving 308 + University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar." + Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy Irving 304 + and Sectarianism." + Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C. Irving 329 + Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 201 + Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 202 + Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Irving 313 + Paul Sarte + Booklet, list of Russian and Communist Irving 309 + literatures publications. + Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right Irving 311 + to Travel" + Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 Irving 320 + Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the Irving 310 + committed of Democratic Spain. + Book, Russian Irving 84 + Books, Russian (18) Irving 78-83 + Book, Russian Language No. 732648 Irving 112 + Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Irving 305 + Josepth Hanson + + 144 + + Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 Irving 324 + Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" Irving 318 + Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 + Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 + Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 + Historical," by Keiber and Nelson. + Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 + Historical" + Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., Beckley 415 + New Orleans. + Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Irving 335 + St., New Orleans. + Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Beckley 414 + St., New Orleans, La. + Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Irving 97 + Join the FPCC + Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Irving 300 + Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch. + Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Beckley 405 + Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense + comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962. + Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Beckley 401 + Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to + Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962. + Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Beckley 412 + Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., + letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963. + Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Beckley 430 + Ala., to Lee and Marie. + Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, Beckley 413 + re: Ability to translate. + Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, Beckley 400 + New Orleans, to Oswald. + Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Beckley 406 + Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, + 1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald. + Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of Beckley 403 + FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963. + Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, Beckley 407 + FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, + New Orleans. + + 145 + + Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit Beckley 429 + House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead. + Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, Irving 363 + 1963 + Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Beckley 445 + Party, to Oswald. + Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Beckley 438 + Press letterhead, to Oswald. + Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager Beckley 404 + of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald. + Magazine, "Friends Word News" Irving 87 + Magazine, "The Militant" Irving 85 + Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Irving 322 + Sept. 12, 1963. + Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in Irving 198 + black standing behind what appears to be + a master of ceremonies dressed in white. + Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Irving 191 + Minsk, Russia. + Newspaper, "The Worker" Irving 86 + Newspaper, clipping, re: the President Irving 120 + Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. Irving 98 + Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, Irving 270 + showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs. + John R. Hall. + Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and Beckley 417 + cartoon regarding defectors). + Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Beckley 413 + Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing + peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway, + N.Y.C. + Newspapers (7), Russian language Irving 381 + Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Irving 380 + Worker, with return envelopes to publishers + News Press. + + 146 + + Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by Irving 317 + James P. Cannon. + Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Irving 303 + Lamont + Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Irving 99 + Curliss Lamont + Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School Irving 312 + of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro. + Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Irving 315 + Rocan + Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover Irving 325 + Pamphlets, Russian Irving 89-94 + Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document Irving 192 + Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, Beckley 411 + fall term, 1963. + Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled Irving 321 + "Automation, a Job Killer." + Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4) Irving 366 + Photos, Fidel Castro (6) Irving 366 + Photo, Fidel Castro Irving 368 + Photo, female Russian workers in radio Irving 332 + factory + Photo, Russian workers Irving 331 + + 147 + + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is +a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the +place--wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., +and have you touched it since you came home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your +recollection on November 21, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in +my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is? + +(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as +stated by Counsel Jenner.) + +Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of +the north edge of the workbench. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown +wrapping paper, shorter and thicker? + +Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a +pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian +blinds. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. +Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which +appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about +6-1/2 inches high and about 6-1/2 inches through. + +While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the +package and it is a little bit irregular. + +Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a +shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north +edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I +have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the +shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what +distance? + +Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package. + +Mrs. PAINE. While you are up there, measure the one behind you. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will. + +Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west? + +Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package +down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will +open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains. + +The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence +and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. +Howlett, what does the package contain? + +Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 +inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not? + +Mrs. PAINE. They are. + +Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper +around your home at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had +bought. I have never had a supply of this variety. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her +package back the way it was? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record. + +Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it +has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, +and "Will call--M. R. Paine." + +Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore +identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this +particular package when it was delivered to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the +first instance? + +Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but +that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came +in this package, I have no idea whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the +blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to +you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears +on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is? + +Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to +do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that +right? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just +described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping +paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we +have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the +work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is +also on the shelf. + +Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is how long? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now. + +Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package +we have already described? + +Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north +end. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds +which I did have in the southeast bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package +down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here. + +(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel +Jenner.) + +Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, +and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades. + +Mrs. PAINE. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the +windows in the southeast bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how +wide? + +Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And the other one is? + +Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring +window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, +are white or cream colored, and are plastic? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade +is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade +spring. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as +did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. +4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are +wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper +that you keep in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that +shelf? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you +had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light +and might not deserve their own wrapping. + +Mr. JENNER. You, of course--you did state it was possible they might +not be separately wrapped? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found +the first two packages? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the +upper one on which we found the two packages? + +Agent HOWLETT. About 10-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a +butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be +a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett--how many do you have there? + +Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a +kind of buff color or cream colored. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and +see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the +curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you +please? + +While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage +floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, +at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in +Washington last week. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in +color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It +was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living. + +Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't +find any other curtain rods. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken +down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which +you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your +garage during the fall of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at +any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits +and we will return them after they have been placed of record? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark +Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276. + +(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter +as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't +have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the +record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad +one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very +light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy +tin? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into +the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended +tip they are---- + +Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. +Those ends extending are turned up how many inches? + +Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain +rod. + +Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures +about 2-3/8 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," +do they not, a long "U"? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item +to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence +between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me? + +Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation. + +Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? + +Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation. + +Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain +that remark? + +Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the +exception of one Christmas card from Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you +transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear +only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation +for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them +off. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT + + +Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved +Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and +be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this +deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Agent HOWLETT. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. State your name, please? + +Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United +States? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent. + +Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, +brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of +Mrs. Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted +me, have you not? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the +appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the +reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the +conditions? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the +various measurements that are now recorded in this record? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called +figures or ordered descriptions? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, +to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And made in your presence? + +Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window. + +Mr. JENNER. Which window? + +Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there--yes. + +Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, +and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. High or wide? + +Agent HOWLETT. Wide--would you like for me to check it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might check it. + +Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade +we have just measured. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, +Mrs. Paine.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + + +Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated +here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they +are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Since November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22. + +Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven +pages? + +Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page. + +Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine +Exhibit No. 277." + +(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for +identification.) + +Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence +between November 22 and the first date here--December 27. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions +about the exhibit first? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of +translations prepared by you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which +you transmitted or delivered? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other +fashion to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that +way? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or +method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as +Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top +indicating when the translation was made. + +Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals +were dispatched? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later. + +Mr. JENNER. How much later? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January +26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, +December 28 and January 3. + +Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I +cannot now find. + +Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared +the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you +wished, you then wrote the final answer? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the +time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was +written and sent. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed +carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit +277? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, +after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions +are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive +character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced +Exhibit 277--what are those papers? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence +there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which +was December 27. + +Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if +you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which +appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to +Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and +checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these +via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but +I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second +one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in +Washington. + +There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked +December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me +to Marina on the same date, December 21. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card? + +Mrs. PAINE. They crossed. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording +of the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing +it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't +serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content +of my note, which I have no copy of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the +situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I +say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from +myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I +didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her. + +Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last +week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered +something to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had come containing +contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina +and arrived at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having +talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked +with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also +brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas +gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had +previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate +for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside +had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", +and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also +brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family. + +Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct. + +Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the +house--the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture +window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. + +Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the +Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas +with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on +your typewriter repaired? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, +found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about +that incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the +Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key +repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that +occasion as well? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children +went in, and the check stub is dated October 18. + +Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when +you picked up the typewriter? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, +and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday +that I took the typewriter in. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had the +typewriter repaired as of that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced. + +Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect Russian +symbol--Russian language symbol? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee +Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the +circumstances? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching +Russian to one student. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would +like to add to the record. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at +the moment. + +Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, +since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my +attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a +bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have +been heretofore advised? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There is nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record. + +In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that +is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash +as distinguished from check or money orders? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that +came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service +as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had +not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I +therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as +cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance +of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances? + +Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne---- + +Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face? + +Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was +signing, and by this I meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply +to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I +assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a +check written by me to her. + +Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin? + +Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the +hand of John Thorne. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth +Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of +that page, are you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter +which appears on that page? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that +letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, +accompanying it was a check? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope. + +Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated +December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to +Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A. + +(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an +endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit +277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of +remitting cash gifts by check? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which +purports to be and which is a check. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other +document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is +the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B. + +(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit +No. 277-B, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature +appears as the maker of each of those checks? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you +by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is +there an endorsement on the reverse side? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. In whose hand? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand. + +Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement +"For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said. + +Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when +they were returned to you, by your bank? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December +28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check +No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B. + +(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A +and 277-B.) + +Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain +these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of +the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to +return them all to you at once. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be +helpful to the Commission in this investigation? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of +this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with +you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record +sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record +sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has +been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the +record by Mr. Howlett or by me? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the +record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear +of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining +room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, +completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone +fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children +playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting +out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to +the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to +west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There +is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the +clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line +of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19-1/2 feet south of +the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one +at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in +circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much +smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick. + +The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has +a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have +recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground. + +Is that correct, Mr. Howlett? + +Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the +ground. + +Mr. JENNER. I see--I recited it 3 inches and that was in error. + +Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on +the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have +testified this evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated +it would you read the translation into the record? + +Mrs. PAINE. The translation says: + + "DEAR RUTH: + + Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and + wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very + sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not + my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better + changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the + very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you + did for me. + + Sincerely, + MARINA. + + P.S.--Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little + June. I kiss you, Marina." + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine. + +Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which +reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front +of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now +have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing +which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing. + +Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at +Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting +on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is that? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope +itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified--she was able to write English +to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now +hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the +envelope? + +(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit +Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was +except for the reporter's identification, when you received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the +envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed. + +Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its +contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you +received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain +the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is fine. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been +identified this evening. + +Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to +add, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point. + +Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the +Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in +your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I +recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large +beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west +your yard in the rear a clothesline. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19-1/2 feet south +of the back porch--of the back fence? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when +you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the +midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to +advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in +connection with events that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had +been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I +told her. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the +clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the +same position now as those posts were on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing +the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I +reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had +announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the +School Book Depository. She recalled that to me in the evening and +told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I +don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the +Commission hearings--I have recalled it since. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled +"Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination +of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I +asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and +papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49--is that an +affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city +police? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in +your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of +November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police? + +Mrs. PAINE. That's right. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh +your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh +your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your +testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the +interview of the Dallas city police with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was +it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time. + + "AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT + + THE STATE OF TEXAS + COUNTY OF DALLAS + + BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said + county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth + Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, + after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have + lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, + Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the + early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I + heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I + was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald + and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to + visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me + because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two + weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. + Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I + was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He + came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. + Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with + his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at + the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. + Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm + yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when + he left for work. + + (S) RUTH HYDE PAINE." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to +be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar +with her signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh +your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what +occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not +already testified. + +Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a +statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the +Dallas City Police Station? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page +46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what +was said, is it accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony +or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that +she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was +not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her +husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. +This is what I particularly remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the +blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here. + +Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle +in it." + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and +saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already +that her husband had one. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred +to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we +thought we might ask you before we close. + +Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the +kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the +contents of that drawer? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to +the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents +of that drawer. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished--is there anything you +wish to add? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at +7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal +appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative +with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this +sometimes gruesome work. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here +in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do +so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it +will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, +since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, +I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your +testimony of last week as well. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could +then sign this deposition. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you +on Saturday of last week. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE + +The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, +1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley +J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's +Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your +deposition to find out some of the background information that you have +about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part +of 1963, up to the time of the assassination. + +We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of +the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was +allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at +the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in +your garage in Texas. + +I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge +of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money +or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you +or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to +the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but +before I do that, will you state your name for the record. + +Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? + +Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? + +Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located? + +Mr. PAINE. Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which +that occurred? + +Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was? + +Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has +kept a calendar. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the +assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to +other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time? + +Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's +house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this +couple who were represented as he having been an American who had +defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was +sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet +him at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? + +Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates +from my wife but I think that was in February. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the +conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more +in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you +met him? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our +house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding +the second meeting with Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby +early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have +her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help +of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her +visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in +New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and +picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was +the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and +had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about +a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, +and I guess Lee came out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at +the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, +Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a +Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper. + +So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to +recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because +I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his +voice on the telephone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first +separated? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October? + +Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in Grand Prairie? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the +period that you were separated particularly during the period of +September-October? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week +was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The +garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I +would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday +accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight +or did you just come---- + +Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in +your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the +eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of +1963? + +Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent +a couple of months, the end of July, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I +don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or +the date she arrived at Irving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said +brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also +brought Oswald's personal and household effects? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of +the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but +whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to +take out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip? + +Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- + +Mr. PAINE. Go ahead. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is +important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we +could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. +If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the +date they came back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage +toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any +reason? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things +there, and the tools were there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see +a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had +had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their +things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and +in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the +way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string +and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the +Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't +look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I +picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it +was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping +equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it +up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the +floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know +what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered +with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that +wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping +equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and +that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing. + +I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping +equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub +like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I +thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was +trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because +that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as +far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those +various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it +was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, +enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but +just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I +visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that +must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw +you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a +rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a +yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of +what you visualized to be in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. +I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one +time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out +of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only +thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which +looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different +pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel. + +Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something +that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual +package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in +the package. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first +picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of +as an iron pipe of some sort. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask +him to mark this as Exhibit 1. + +(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".) + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you +that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be +a solid piece or just what was your feeling? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. +I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't +hold together enough. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it? + +Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- + +Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, +that was too symmetrical. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical? + +Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are +symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here +this wider area had to be offset somehow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I +first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, +then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of +camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle +or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put +a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, +to the shape of the thing. + +I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts +in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I +just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full +extent of my thinking. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be? + +Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you +indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how +long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have +indicated. + +Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a length of 37-1/2 inches. + +Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you +mean by that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly? + +Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there +might have been any paper inside of it? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. +Nothing crinkled, no sound. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that +there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they +didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by +that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping +equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection +with this particular package? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid. + +Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I +mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had +been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped +with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it +looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the +ground. + +I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of +camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, +at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I +drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another +pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe---- + +Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here +or I didn't know where the other pipe might be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked +it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes +inside the package. + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you +see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way +it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that +there was more than one pipe inside. + +Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't +move one part with respect to another. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly? + +Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was +wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two +pipes trying to hold still in the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not +being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline +or something, I think that would go around the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here? + +Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end +and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are +indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that +it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was +not as wide? + +Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because +I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was +folded over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was +folded over at the other end opposite from "A"? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different +thoughts at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the +first drawing that you made on No. 1? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be +much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end +"B" and drawing in another line. + +Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, +between 7 and 8 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C". + +Mr. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" +on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" +at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record +straight as to what we have been talking about? + +Mr. PAINE. [Marking.] + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, +the length and the height. + +Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around +it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe +went actually through my fingers and thumb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it? + +Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it +when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is +the thumb. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has sketched---- + +Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with +the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand +indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about +2 inches thick, including the blanket. + +When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was +wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was +just a fold of the blanket at that end? + +Mr. PAINE. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly +wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall +exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the +strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here +somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"? + +Mr. PAINE. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember +this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the +time so I was thinking about that. + +I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too +asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have +been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end +of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember +that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well +wrapped up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated +that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on +our drawing. + +Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark +"D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was +folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us? + +Mr. PAINE. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on +an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt +wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the +saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned +not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have +indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and +a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the +package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn. + +What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package? + +Mr. PAINE. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this +pipe here shown didn't--the package. I must draw another package then. +The package must have sloped. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember how it was? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a +blanket, I mean it was a--reconstruct the blanket or something but this +is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the +outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't +think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual +separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my +mind into this package. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new +package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should +have gone right to the end of the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the +edge of the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a---- + +Mr. PAINE. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside +of it, I didn't particularly arrange it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as +Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw +in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck +me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is +the mood of the colors there. + +I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But +green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something +like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in +the garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, +do anything you want to with it. + +Mr. PAINE. I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks +cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very +good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the +night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more +mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this +absolutely. + +It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good +candidate for, my memory of the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have them on when you were working in there? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your +saw? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had lights near your saw, didn't you? + +Mr. PAINE. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that +shines on the table. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There is no light directly over the saw? + +Mr. PAINE. No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of +the room. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket +around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine +the colors of the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. +I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue +spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the +impression I had of the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And those blue spots would have been a part of the +pattern of the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, +Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the +blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the +garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious +I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal +privacy, so I don't investigate something. + +Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free +to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his +belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. +I remember that feeling. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like +the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is a good---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. It is similar? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with +brown thread, is it not? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Around some of the edges at any rate? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket +that was in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When +I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was +found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as +the next exhibit on this deposition. + +(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for +identification.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which +has been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or +different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you +saw it in the garage, if you remember? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good +candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by +which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive +cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the +manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually +remember whether it was or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be similar? + +Mr. PAINE. That is about as good as could come to my memory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With two strings? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your +attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you +notice that pin? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference +table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the +rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on +November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these +materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string +something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your +garage? + +Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the +whole---- + +Mr. REDLICH. By "this end" what do you mean? + +Mr. PAINE. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had +wrapped it and pulled the blanket over. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when +you remember it in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We want you just to continue to work with it and take +your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the +fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other. + +Mr. PAINE. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did +with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. +I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too +thick to do it that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will +ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be +similar to the one you saw in your garage? + +Mr. PAINE. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it +is not quite big enough here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this end, you are referring to the end +marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt +end of the rifle, isn't that right? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say that end is too thick. + +Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we +have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick +enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package? + +Mr. PAINE. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same +thickness, calling the width from type--calling the rifle and the scope +of the rifle the width. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The width? + +Mr. PAINE. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the +thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of +the package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to +move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much +that I can't grab that feel of pipe. + +That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been +two pipes there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the +"A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you +remember the package in your garage or the same width? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt +end of the rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The "B" end? + +Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that appears to be thicker---- + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Than the package that was in your garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is +what, not as thick nor not as wide? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering? + +Mr. PAINE. Quite so tapered. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that approximately the length of the package that you +remember in your garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or +another, I don't know what he did with this end. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the "A"? + +Mr. PAINE. There was a string, there were two strings on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you estimated the length of the package before, +would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on +the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in +this particular package? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right +if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was +the kind of length that I would grab there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if +you folded this flap over here at "A"? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us +what it is? + +Mr. PAINE. That is 41 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after going through the process that we have gone +through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you +think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a +package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight +of that package? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you +thought it weighed? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after +the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether +or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the +moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether +the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I +haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package +where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than +one tube. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did picture more than one tube---- + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to +be--there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture +therefore that it was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say---- + +Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the +top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn +there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as +well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the +Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to +have been used to assassinate the President? + +Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination +if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he +was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to? + +Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of +the house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By the what? + +Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually +small clapboard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being? + +Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have +them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the +object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but +after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope +on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you +lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and +Peggs on November 24, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is +an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That +night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the +police station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24? + +Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday. + +Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I +spent at the police station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can +recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day +of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on +that day? + +Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police +took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an +affidavit right in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. PAINE. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from +the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he +had no--by leave of the police that he could do this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent? + +Mr. PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior +to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I +don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not +remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed +without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news +reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the +police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because +they are more objectionable. I mean there is more---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the +name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on +November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station? + +Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as +best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you +stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, +the night of the 22d? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life +reporters were there, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. At Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I +was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at +night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what +happened after they left? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 +o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving +apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the +day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I +was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I +would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left +at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the +Bell Helicopter plant on that day? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has +asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I +don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the +helicopter plant? + +Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall +previously I thought about it and I said, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police +came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was +out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas +Police Department? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at Irving that evening? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, +spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the +next morning. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on +Saturday, November 23? + +Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something +like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was +wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this +rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before? + +Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize +that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he +spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he +couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I +didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a +rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to +Marina Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that +time? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your +wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina +Oswald at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify +the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a +rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but +didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is what---- + +Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or +this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it +was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. +She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package +wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it +accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when +she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a +rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that +effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about +the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that +interview with the Dallas police? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that +Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to +her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a +sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which +is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything +like that before? + +Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, +a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I +can truthfully remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a +device---- + +Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all +whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you +have any idea what this might be? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this +around your own house or garage in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar +to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and +I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart +rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. +Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and +see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made +to wrap the complete rifle. + +Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the +same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes +the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't +have got the sense of pipe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the +rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems +natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the +rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping +the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package? + +Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, +offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding +shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some +fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly +with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The +barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel +had to be sticking out beyond the stock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be +sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in +the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly +enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was +put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that +there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the +FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure +it was a rifle in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle +as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on +the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe +I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the +rifle was suggested as an object. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, +in fact, a rifle in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of +a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, +after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 +is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual +sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been +discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been +treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated +is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are +concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any +event. + +Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of +paper, the difference is pretty slight. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers, +however? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would +say there is a difference. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp +than 364? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to +me this is more common. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364? + +Mr. PAINE. 364, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of +paper? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags +made of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142 +and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your +garage or at your home in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to +the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. +We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure +all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or +something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods? + +Mr. PAINE. These expanding rods that are---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no idea where they came from? + +Mr. PAINE. Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in +the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down +because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking +them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, +I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a +question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any +particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply +of it, wrapping paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You +say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the +house. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are +junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work +bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on +them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might +be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades +in the bedrooms. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember? + +Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new +floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I +thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the fall of 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain +rods themselves are 32-1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide +together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they +are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their---- + +Mr. PAINE. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have, +I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that +resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the +window shades to go in place of those curtain rods. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might +have been a package in which those shades came? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about +these curtain rods in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to +Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something +to do with windows in my mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever +mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November +21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that +you can remember as being in that garage. + +Mr. PAINE. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass +window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are +boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. +My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it +now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, +so it is fuzzy in my memory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the +FBI or any other authorities searched the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I wasn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d? + +Mr. PAINE. I think just about 3 o'clock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances under which you first heard +of the assassination on that day? + +Mr. PAINE. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress +came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to +somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At that time you had heard only that the President had +been shot, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no connection with Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the assassination at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. Went back to the lab and then---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who +was with you at the first time you heard the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you +first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near +the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, +I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of +people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, +so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it +until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was +not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School +Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank +Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next +half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that +Lee worked there, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said. + +Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't +think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision +no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping +on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the +hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I +didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact +had anything to do with the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to +hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped +the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it +unlikely on that account alone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye +witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting +the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with +deliberateness. This seemed in character. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with +compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't +see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward +his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to +his nature or his character. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination +and prior to the time that you heard Oswald---- + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say? + +Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called +her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and +listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. +That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was +mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said +almost nothing except---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was +involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being +involved? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went +home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the +Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the +theatre. But that was enough connection for me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching +discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my +action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, +therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he +would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long +surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in +any crowd of Americans. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have +any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two +samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, +Tex.? + +And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping +tape with which the packages are reconstructed? + +Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is +3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, +this is 3-inch tape. + +Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I +had the impression it was a 2-inch tape. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities +inquired about this question before? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get +lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will +ask you some more questions about it. + +Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it? + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to +Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at +the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI +will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape +which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was +at your premises on November 22? + +Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is +presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly +recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it +had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you +remember? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. +The desk--I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time +the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the +garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door +leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom +drawer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any +possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he +presumably made this bag at your place? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142? + +Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of +paper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364. + +Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the +garage itself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring +about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which +the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this +question? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about +that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never +been mentioned between yourself and your wife? + +Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. +I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that +morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he +did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is--we may +have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the +Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them +or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory? + +Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking +people, Ruth has mentioned the name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them? + +Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about +them? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall +what she said about them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory +in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, +subsequent to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter +Gregory's name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark. + +Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have +met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover +moved to their house later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. PAINE. I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is +possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said? + +Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I +was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch +it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring +a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce +it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I +didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers? + +Mr. PAINE. Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At +one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name +like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he +introduced me to some--let's say no; I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he +a close friend of yours? + +Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. +We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and +he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian +Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago +probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the +madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met +also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also +I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single +adult party dance of the Unitarian Church. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist? + +Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him? + +Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's +house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also +would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen? + +Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt? + +Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with +Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but +I may have shaken his hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name--I +don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten +his name at this time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an +interpreter at the police station. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans. + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Florence McDonald? + +Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she? + +Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal +groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or +something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I +think they were the ones who brought them into circulation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who +shares a well with him and keeps it repaired. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who does? + +Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from +Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear +stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I +haven't met him myself, I don't believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at +your office at one time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I +think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by +a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and +called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me +more than once on that subject. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order +to contact these women? + +Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, +sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was +living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time +there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out +of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about +Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to +call on her and Marina? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me +was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I +told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would +like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, +but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came? + +Mr. PAINE. She did; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it. + +Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. +Shasteen? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex. + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the +name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I +was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there +and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess +I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad +haircut. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it +over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber +shops in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young +boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in +the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that +description? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I +was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin +Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that +Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party +check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, +Supermarket? + +Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on +Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, +if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile? + +Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He +couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he +knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own? + +Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What model? + +Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV? + +Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own? + +Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, +'55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was this? + +Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I +bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that? + +Mr. PAINE. '55. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that? + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? + +Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since +November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. +She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, +not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the +whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of +communication she had with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car? + +Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble +operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering +wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it +in some other way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission. + +Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or---- + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an +airplane. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch. + +Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch? + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability +to manipulate the controls? + +Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when +they learn to drive a car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina +pocket money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina? + +Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, +medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket +money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It +could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money +for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else? + +Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do +remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody +to pick him up there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to +Irving is? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone +calls? + +Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you +please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him +at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any +money jingling in his pockets that I recalled. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras? + +Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical +records? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were +Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to +play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian +singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor +fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or +mail at your address in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but +the Worker, what is it called now? + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker. + +Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant +also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but +generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail +apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that +address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent +address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail +into a separate pile and I would pick it up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these +periodicals? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at +least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his +conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read +between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He said that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon +after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks +rolled by. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue +he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead +here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the +way he gets his communications from headquarters. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that +conversation. + +Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an +afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I +remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said +this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why? + +Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so +it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a +group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist +of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more +explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. +And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't +mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between +the lines of a newspaper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that +he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding +any subject in the political field? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many +occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with +Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the +way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought +he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee +thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason +and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about +Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a +Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that +is the way he has to find his fellow travelers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to +convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist +group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell +or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and +thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU +meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to +indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to +meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general +remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, +what impression did he give you? + +Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist +and he would like to meet him again, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that +evening at the meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They +convene very infrequently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again? + +Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a +registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU +member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him? + +Mr. PAINE. I probably would. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU? + +Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during +the time that Marina lived at your house? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the +weekends, did he eat all of his meals there? + +Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would +sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a +position to say. I think he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in +respect to those meals? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses +of the household? + +Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I +would have been surprised had he done so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when +he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he +left? + +Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth +has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a +piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe. + +Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your +presence? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the +Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted +to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that? + +Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to +live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I +inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how +come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he +was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. +I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to +the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I +was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, +but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he +would be a happier person. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too +directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it +was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was +projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as +were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that +he must feel in regard to the job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was +responsible for his not being able to obtain a job? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was +responsible for his losing a job? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised +from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and +Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was +packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I see. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, +people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he +also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money +than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. +It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to +myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must +show through to his employer. + +This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must +happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later +or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, +I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate +reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the +FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job? + +Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with +anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, +told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused +him to lose jobs? + +Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this +to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read +this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was +a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, +typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she +gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I +didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the +notorious FBI. + +Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She +hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, +which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true +and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little +bit about his--also, I think---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI? + +Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And +also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI +had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee +seemed to resent that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show +you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter +from Oswald to the Russian Embassy? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it +was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what +he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and +they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that +they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the +heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, +"Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs." + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English? + +Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, +yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter? + +Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other +magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and +I didn't really shift attention too well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards? + +Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close +attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it +must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and +she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the +furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a +Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember +what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread +the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have +read it correctly in her hand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and +the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up +until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe +shortly after he returned from wherever he had been. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw +him? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one +preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think +there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday +party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not, +approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that +his birthday was October 18? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each +weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the +assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, +was it not? + +Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, +Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then? + +Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the +last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft +of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that +weekend or after that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the +house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember +when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read +the letter or not? + +Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One +would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have +looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read +the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different +point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she +showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come +to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the +Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would +have shown me the letter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of +his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not? + +Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. +And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was +reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my +magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she---- + +Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the +letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me +to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it? + +Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want +me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind +looking at it." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with +Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico? + +Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been +in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think +Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had +apparently known and deceived her in this matter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little +charm made out of Mexican peso. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until +the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used +the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these +little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out +a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she +realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about +it until afterward. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the +assassination, with your wife? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a +record of Mexican music? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her +relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of +October up to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met +Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met +them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly +to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little +fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in +discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening +at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, +and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them? + +Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he +was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was +made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said. + +But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager +to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager +that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina +thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out +of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here +if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me +as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, +so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until +she could make her own way here. + +It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for +her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was +costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina? + +Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad +with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or +I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to +stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but +would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And +she was a nice companion for Ruth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got +along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort +of thing? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that +were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain +rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when +you last saw them? + +Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then? + +Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf +above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them +down, or something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at +any time? + +Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my +recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK + +The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on +March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert +E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the +President's Commission. + + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the +President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive +Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963. + +Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in +touch with you, did he not? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive +Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and +the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, +evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of +President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result +of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine +prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some +of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some +conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time. + +Would you state your name for the record? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 +Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. +Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational +background is, Mr. Krystinik? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to +Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. +And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. +Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg +to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. +Graduated in 1950. + +I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. +Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have +to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August +of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of +1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956. + +Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated +from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell +Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just +about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you +the exact dates. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell +Helicopter? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on +what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that +adequate? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what +circumstances? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. +I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at +the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and +on up through now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties +Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do +remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas +when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, +and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian +lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember +his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who +had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he +defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he +came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not +capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't +accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had +taken Marina to help her for the time being. + +That was the reference made to him prior to having met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael +Paine told you about Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that +period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once +a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little +different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He +commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he +had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and +support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he +apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and +when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the +man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value. + +They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat +down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be +the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him. + +Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my +chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As +the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there +was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the +meeting said prior to the film starting. + +They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some +form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington +State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating +that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently +she had had connections during her college days but had severed +relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an +investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no +connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how +the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen +that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the +film. + +After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and +about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the +integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first +notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about +General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but +anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made +further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the +General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of +him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he +had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. +Stevenson came to Dallas? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. +I don't remember the exact date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it +struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was +anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote +that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. +He didn't say what General Walker had said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker +either by words or by his deeds? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me +prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before +that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, +and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he +thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening +to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he +was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. +He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that +General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading +a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular +violent thoughts towards General Walker? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent +until I heard on the radio he had shot the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General +Walker? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they +discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when +Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists +would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I +really don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which +Stevenson had had his difficulty? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think +just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to +Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the +General Walker group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only +remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was +the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but +anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as +General Walker? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The +group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly +whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to +you, but I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and +addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, +intelligent, or was he not that way? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement. +After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about +economics. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was +the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was +saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression +on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the +conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was +directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was +irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his +attitude? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking +down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a +certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the +argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different +spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't +accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different +avenue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the +discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what +he said and what you said and what the argument was about. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the +back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not +sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure +there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee. + +Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room +together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had +told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood +that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to +offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind +of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then. + +I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we +talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I +told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he +had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he +commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that. + +I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments +were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said +that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just +what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes +a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. +I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at +least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present +time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad +to work for him for the salary I got. + +He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in +any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to +know if I thought that was fair or not? + +And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I +feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. +I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay +them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are +real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. +My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the +material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour +from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the +work, and my wage is comparable to my investment. + +He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he +commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it +is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the +worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring +to exploitation of the worker, supposedly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the +conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. +I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, +they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he +said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We +were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United +States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil +liberties. + +I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference +to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine +job, a real good job, I have forgotten. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in +reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time +he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is +doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what +he said. + +He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate +impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later +and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael +brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with +Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary +words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, +but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying +rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying +it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis +that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a +good job as far as civil rights were concerned? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. +After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an +emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him +placing emphasis on the way he said it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward +President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in +general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the +impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other +government official, during the course of his conversation with you? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine +comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying +around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It +was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that +he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the +FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the +assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was after? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you +had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any +government official or toward the government in general? Would that be +a fair statement? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time +sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down. + +Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and +we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was +before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against +all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this +impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression +beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards. + +I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers +and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able +to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this +might possibly extend to law enforcement officials. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of +authority? There was resentment of his employers? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk +about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I +talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the +only meeting you ever had with Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on +television. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation +with him during that time at the ACLU meeting? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in +reference to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU +meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You +are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly +what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I +addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist +and indicated he was not a Communist? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those +theories? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you---- + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at +the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the +worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia +they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he +stated that it is worse than here. He did say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia +than it is in the United States? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. And the State exploited the worker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you any desire to return to the Soviet +Union? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to go to any other country? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. To me; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had +been active in the Fair Play for Cuba? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read +about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or +Communist group? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. His only comment was that, "I am a Marxist." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member +of any group, Marxist or Communist group? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that he +defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist, +now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red, +and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to +offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind +of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a +dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him +giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him +on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met +him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat +better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the +conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be +said, and I like to talk too. + +We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was +more of an argument. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of +your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist +or Marxist group? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I +am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific +organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific +group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of +your conversation with him? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, +the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that +occasion? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we +talked more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the +Marines? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had +been in the Marines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable +discharge from the Marine Corps? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his +impressions while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the +conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism +versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the +pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was +just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to +capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the +Soviet Union were a general remark? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of +job he had? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards, +if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic +firm or electrical industry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the +Soviet Union other than you have already told us? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we +were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And +he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The +money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any +particular sense of humor to you? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me +as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and +sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed +notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up +regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up +that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your +argument with Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what +Michael said? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went +on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no +point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind. + +He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of +person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or +make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has +sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you +have the same impression. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your +(conversation) discussion with Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him +just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I +didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have +talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there +wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar +experiences? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk +economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk +to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that +he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that +it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't +particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed +image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any +periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political +questions of the time that you discussed? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying +to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so +darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to +strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist +literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from +the news media that I heard this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael +Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the +assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was +the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child +prior to that time. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French +Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me +to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was +taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took +him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any +rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth +out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the +baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me +to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. +I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan +to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke +to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and +Marina said I am talking too Texan. + +At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful +little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she +commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can +remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there +is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have +a compliment. At least I felt complimented. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was +the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to +her in English? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to +Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking +too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment. + +At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just +a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember +exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and +I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth +entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and +totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I +talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean +I talked to her rather than with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second +child. Is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at +that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's +father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but +one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for +his future shop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior +to his buying the land. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I see. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been +invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend. + +I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy +this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, +and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew +back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at +work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting +with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his +father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an +international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who +was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and +he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine +had given in Los Angeles is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he +was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person, +and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other +people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I +remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't +remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't +remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in +my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or +other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They +were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That +doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression +I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like +that. They were just very, very different. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been +active in the affairs of the Communist Party? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he +said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was +some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic +interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does +your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his +father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does, +that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That +was Michael's comment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very +little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los +Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000, +and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he +didn't have the money. + +I had that impression because he commented that there was time for +him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the +coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was +really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was +time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't +have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000, +for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he +had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his +stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had, +if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two +places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that +he had gotten it from his father. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't +know. These are impressions that I had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the +purpose of visiting his father? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that +his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and +he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this +was the discussion prior to his leaving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell +Helicopter? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell +Helicopter business. I am aware of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on +Bell Helicopter business? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would +have told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by +my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think +that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all +honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and +if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he +shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, +because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing +on him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him +shortly after the assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with +his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he +bought this tract in Irving? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the +President had been shot? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the +radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel +parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the +laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for +him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I +believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we +were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in, +they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and +switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the +Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was +shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit. + +Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, +this is official that the President of the United States has been +fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little +while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital, +and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and +both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that +they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And +finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the +President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He +had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. +And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile +tears in seriousness. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact +that the President had been fired at? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with +him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and +drink my can of Metrecal. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with +Michael? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both +in the lab? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael +has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the +President had been fired at? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that +the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, +myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered +right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the +one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about +the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned +from lunch? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. +As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was +there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when +the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had +died. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the +assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a +thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any +immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a +terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first +immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have +had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that. + +And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists +would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch +people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through +that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, +and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to +the Texas School Book Depository. + +I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that +Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School +Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You +don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." +At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could +really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing +that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do +such an act. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of +Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had +learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston +near the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said +that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment +was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, +"That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" +And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have +been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one +to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between +you and Michael Paine, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the +assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of +the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job +there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time +I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had +one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right +back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works." + +And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I +just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You +don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it +wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we +heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after +that that it came through that the Oswald fellow had been captured, +had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have +forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The +stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. +He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." + +And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not +even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten. + +We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would +the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, +he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything +personal, and we discussed it. + +That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists +want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a +rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He +said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that +Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." +That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a +gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right +now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression---- + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed +to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I +remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun." + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had +any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention +Oswald's name? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had +associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in +connection with the assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it +was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing +of oppression and worry at that particular time. + +It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, +that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, +and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And +I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was +him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist +Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, +his was the name that came to my mind, possibly. + +I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me +about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I +heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his +name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they +come to mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in +connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael +Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very +shortly after the word had come through? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt +that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to +be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking +questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, +if I can answer, "I feel I should be there." + +Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been +publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being +apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if +I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported +that--can we go back just a little bit? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Surely. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had +come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they +put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about +the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald +works. + +Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that +fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it +could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his +arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at +that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I +think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being +sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I +don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after +that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald +having been arrested in the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the +description given fitted Oswald? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we +should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at +that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it +could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald +was--works in the School Book Depository. + +They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description +and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They +commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they +arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after +Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. +I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the +FBI? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do +right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way +in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him." + +And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, +that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been +Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He +is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the +best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would +have been what he meant. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael +didn't want to advise the FBI? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a +little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He +doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, +the least little bit. + +I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company +on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he +will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very +careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can. + +At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking +movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a +railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 +and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did +he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a United +States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said +he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the +future. + +It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this +date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't +know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of +it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking +pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, +and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I +got his license number of his car, also. + +The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and +Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a +public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the +public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs +said on the fence. + +If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check +and faithfully check it out. + +I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the +security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I +wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it +was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he +said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and +a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing +wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had +him arrested on the spot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI +in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude +that you explained in the situation you have just described? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A +fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, +"Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he +said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you +call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, +"No, I take a man at his word." + +He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you +have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in +his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth +civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue +him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked +out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of +his car, because he drove it that way for a long time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from +Washington? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give +them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about +the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. +He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details. + +At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station +in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for +himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been +checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the +Commission should know about in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination. + +In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his +apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is +on the surface. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events +leading up to the assassination? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think +if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have +avoided the President being shot. + +He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out +that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved +in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a +blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort +of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping +equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it +might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating]. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30 +inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of +approximately 27 inches. + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches +different from that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the +length of about 27 inches? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to +the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in +reference to the weapon. + +Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not +have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to +killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't +believe in violence at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, +is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to +tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at +this point? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your +time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning +to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is +important. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the +Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our +house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel +that I know Michael fairly well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any +judgment about her character? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I +have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person. + +I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would +say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know +her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well +enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with +him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't +actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with +him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to +love him as much as I love my brother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you +have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the +assassination, do you? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is +all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their +charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be +associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I +won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael +told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you +have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. +Thank you, Mr. Krystinik. + +Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the +transcript, is that so? + +Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed. + +Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none +changed. + +"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on +page 447. + +Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way. + +Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here. + +Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; +changed here. + +Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not +changed. + +Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here. + +Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; +changed here. + +Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be +"apolitical". + +Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying". + +Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as +"kidnaped"; changed here. + +Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; +changed here. + +Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was +misprinted as "huband"; changed here. + +Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not +changed. + +Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed +here. + +Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed. + +Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed +here. + +Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed. + +Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date. + +Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government." +appear to be missing from the Testimony. + +Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; +changed here. + +Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as +"Manantov"; all have been changed here. + +Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915". + +Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as +"expresed"; changed here. + +Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context. + +Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; +changed here. + +Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for +consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-". + +Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and +capitalized that way. + +Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when +he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, +but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner. + +Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text. + +Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed. + +Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed. + +Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly". + +Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you +know". + +Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available +at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote +probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg. + +Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in +that position. + +Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed. + +Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way. + +Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed +here. + +Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought". + +Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140". + +Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it". + +Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my". + +Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought". + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings +Vol. IX (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44009 *** |