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diff --git a/44009.txt b/44009.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 61df65d..0000000 --- a/44009.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,46599 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. -IX (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 21, 2013 [EBook #44009] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V9 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ IX - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX: -Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen, -Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis, -Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne -De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted -with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in -1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service; -Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted -with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in -1962. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Paul M. Raigorodsky 1 - Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) 27 - Thomas M. Ray 38 - Samuel B. Ballen 45 - Lydia Dymitruk 60 - Gary E. Taylor 73 - Ilya A. Mamantov 102 - Dorothy Gravitis 131 - Paul Roderick Gregory 141 - Helen Leslie 160 - George S. De Mohrenschildt 166 - Jeanne De Mohrenschildt 285 - Ruth Hyde Paine 331, 426 - John Joe Howlett 425 - Michael R. Paine 434 - Raymond Franklin Krystinik 461 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Page - Commission Exhibit No. 364 93 - - De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.: - 1 277 - 2 278 - 3 279 - 4 279 - 5 279 - 6 279 - 7 279 - 8 279 - 9 279 - 10 279 - 11 279 - 12 282 - 13 282 - 14 282 - 15 282 - 16 26 - - Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.: - 1 437 - 2 441 - - Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.: - 270 408 - 271 408 - 272 411 - 273 411 - 274 411 - 275 424 - 276 424 - 277 426 - 277-A 429 - 277-B 430 - 278 432 - 278-A 432 - 461 347 - 469 390 - - Raigorodsky Exhibit No.: - 9 25 - 10 25 - 10-A 25 - 10-B 25 - 11 26 - 11-A 26 - 14 26 - 14-A 26 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY - -The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March -31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., -by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are -about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is -in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides -in Dallas. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Stoneleigh Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. Who resides at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas. - -Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the -Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is -the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving -on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the -attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective -investigations. - -The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the -U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson -by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The -Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of -depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the -assassination of President Kennedy. - -We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted -with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you -are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to -have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think -you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using -the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of -Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I -understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us -in that regard? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us -your general background, just give us your general background--when you -came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. My background? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, commencing--I don't know where to start, please? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, where were you born? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was, -oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to -the university there. - -Mr. JENNER. You did what, sir? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I went to the university there and I am escaping from -Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and -then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross -and the YMCA. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920. - -Mr. JENNER. 1940? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1920. - -Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sixty-five--exactly. - -May I have this not on the record? - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at -this point.) - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I came to this country. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1920? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they -advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United -States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air -Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received -an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of -war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to -this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't -been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and -graduated in 1924. - -Mr. JENNER. What degree? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even -though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in -different subjects. - -By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds, -and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat. - -And, that was in 1924--then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I -simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret -McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank--a Governor or -whatever you call it. - -Mr. JENNER. Federal Reserve Bank? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918--he was -appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then, -I stayed in California for some--from 1924 until more or less--until -1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a Dallas concern? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; that was a California concern, specializing in -the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for -Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.--just, -that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another, -getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton -Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that -time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction -engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we -organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and -we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to -Dallas because our business was good--I was sent to Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Your business was growing? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized -an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the -Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened -an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of -plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third -in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum -Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just -now--it is inoperative. - -Then, I continued to--I opened an office in Houston and continued -to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum -Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and -in the United States--lots of them--even in Russia, though I never -went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were -supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you -know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I had an order -from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this -should be off the record? - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at -this point.) - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let's see, now, Pearl Harbor was in 1939? - -Mr. JENNER. 1941; December of 1941. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1941? - -Mr. DAVIS. 1941. - -Mr. JENNER. December 8th. - -Mr. DAVIS. The war started in 1939. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Poland in September 1939. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Already then we had the War Production Board, though -to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board, -but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was -it? Probably 1941--before the war. - -Mr. JENNER. Before the war with Japan, you mean? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Before Pearl Harbor. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the -Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the -United States, which I did, and then I had to open--I worked under -DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five -offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston -and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got -ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I -resigned and came back to my business. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By -the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants -for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline -products, and the first plant was built in 1936--the Glen Rose Gasoline -Co. The second one was built in 1943--the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then, -I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my -back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me -there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't -speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me -to Dallas. - -That's very interesting what I am going to tell you--in an ambulance -from Houston--and there was a Dr. Paul Williams--he told me that -without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to -Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I -moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people -that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they -had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and -barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever -since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952--in 1952 I was asked -by--you know General Anderson, by any chance? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was what we call--there was an organization in -Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an -Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a -Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe -and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the -production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO -countries. - -I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along -all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew -me--they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By -the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card. - -(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) - -I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't -return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and -I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I -came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to -different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti, -Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in Jamaica together with some -other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l -[spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all. -My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't -retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has -nothing to do with the---- - -Mr. JENNER. With the Longshoremen? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off -the record now. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record.) - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the -second marriage. Then, I have another daughter--maybe you know my -son-in-law, Howard Norris? - -Mr. DAVIS. Where is he--in Washington? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Howard Lee Norris, he graduated, I think, in 1951 or -1952. - -Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. What business is he in? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Lawyer of the University of Texas. - -Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am very proud of that. That's my child. - -(At this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to Counsel -Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. This is your daughter on the left? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. And, I will answer anything else you want to now. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened -to your splendid career, I assume that--and if this assumption is -wrong, please correct me--that the people of Russian descent who came -into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance, -that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest -in those people in the community and that in any event you became -acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this -general area--in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Louise, will you get me my church file? - -(Addressing his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek.) - -Mr. JENNER. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in -general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in -here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of -Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought -I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the -Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with -them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you -to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what -your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people -coming--like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community? - -Let's not make it Marina Oswald--I don't want to get into a specific, -but let's take a hypothetical couple? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the -many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas. - -There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities -in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship, -acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but -with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation--you -are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund? - -Mr. JENNER. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader -may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the -Tolstoy Foundation. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our -great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came -to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes -care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. -They process them, which means that they know all about them before -they come into here through their own organization or your different -organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States--you have -a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that -want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to -the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to -place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country -but--I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation--but also -in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United -States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy -Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, -rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean, -that's the No. 1 stamp. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the No. 1 stamp of an approval or of their -genuineness? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of approval--in fact, the U.S. Government recognized -that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy -Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work. - -Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in -through acquaintanceship--most of them. - -Mr. JENNER. They come because of prior acquaintanceship? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. With some. - -Mr. JENNER. With some people who are here? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--correspondence you see. Like we have -in Houston--we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know, -Yugoslavia--the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia -and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian -colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled -in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and -lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel. - -Mr. JENNER. They followed? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear -from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy -Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here. -They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where -you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at -this point.) - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let's have this on the record. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, because of my--I always believe that even though -I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the -only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this -country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church -in Texas--at Galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the -Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out, -whether they were one side of the fence or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. One side of what fence or the other? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only fence I know of is between the -communism and the anticommunism. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You are on the anticommunistic side of the fence? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh; of course. - -Mr. JENNER. I want that to appear on record is why I asked. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe -in 1949 or thereabouts--I have donated quite a bit of money to the -Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they -would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest -of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church -there, which they did. - -Mr. JENNER. What religion is that--the name of the church? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Russian--Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern -Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two -main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed -is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have -our own Patriarch at the head of our own church. - -Mr. JENNER. In Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, no, no; we have in New York--it's Metropolitan -Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was the pastor over in Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I will come to that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, when we got to--when I came to Dallas we had -Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an -American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me -because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. You must be acquainted with Father Royster? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about -the church here---- - -Mr. JENNER. The full name is Dimitri Robert Royster--go right ahead. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives -us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here -between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists -or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the -Guard. - -Mr. JENNER. The original church that you helped organize, that is -referred to as the Old Guard? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we -both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them. - -Mr. JENNER. You were the head of both churches? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong -to three churches. - -Mr. JENNER. They are different parishes in the same church, aren't they? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like -to explain to you--you see, in this country--I'm quite sure you know--I -don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell -you about? - -Mr. JENNER. I am primarily interested in this--from the depositions I -have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the -immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by -refugees who come here is through the church. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another -one--George Bouhe's folks. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name -of that one--what is that? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's St. Nicholas. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the St. Nicholas Church? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I'm head of that one. - -Mr. JENNER. You are head of that one? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you say it is a third one? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, it is not a third one here--just the two. Now you -see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again, -leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for -Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians, -Sicilians, or Lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for -the same religion even though their services in their own churches is -in their own language, but here they are all in the English language -because of Father Royster's. - -Mr. JENNER. Father Royster preaches the sermons in English? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he -was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this -church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them--that -means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in -fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which Father Royster -organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between -Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it---- - -Mr. JENNER. St. Nicholas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas--so that Father Royster belongs to -Metropolitan Leonty--Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you -may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan -Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the -revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it. -Metropolitan Anastasia is the head of the Russians outside of Russia, -because he is--whether he escaped Russia like all of us--therefore, -all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that -church. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned -it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about -each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the -Bolsheviks--all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old -anti-Communist group--period. - -Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because -nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there -except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought -against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston, -the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought -against communism and even though we came through different grounds, -some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so -we have a church over there. - -Now, I personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is -my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't -make any difference to me--I tried to get them together and I didn't -succeed in that town. In Houston--I think that is because it is only -one church--it is more successful. - -Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father -Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this -is hearsay--that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the -name of Clark. - -Mr. JENNER. Max Clark? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I mean, that's all hearsay--I do not know it for a -fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very -close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and -lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my -understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends--again, this -is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they -don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding. -And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not -many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them -groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her -fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable. - -Mr. JENNER. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal -sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches -that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well -acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each -other. They seek to help? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or -otherwise? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Those of Russian or Serbian or Central European derivation? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. About when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise -of---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That that happened that way? - -Mr. JENNER. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your -attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their -names--I never saw them before the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--had you heard of the Oswald name? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, never had. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those -things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have -yearly meetings. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say yearly? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Once a year--we meet to elect officers. We meet once a -year to elect the officers. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this true of both St. Nicholas and St. Seraphim? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend -to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now, -because, first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us -will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St. -Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there -are one or two of us left--it would be fine. You see, how we are at St. -Nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to -have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now -Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So, -our priest from Galveston comes up. - -Mr. JENNER. Comes up here? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And I personally don't like him--so I wouldn't go to -the services in my own church on his account. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our -people from our Synod, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. The Synod, S-y-n-o-d (spelling)? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who -will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but -the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any -better. We have about 10 families, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say different--you mean here in Dallas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Dallas--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the priest who comes up from Galveston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let me see--maybe I have it here. - -(Examining file.) - -Maybe he's not from Galveston--he comes from Houston, but he's the one -that was, you know,--can this be off the record--I just throw those -notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at -this point.) - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet -document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information -Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have -perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding -the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at -its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through -the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other -parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have -this statement in the record, and will you please copy it. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have that--I have a photostat of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to copy it in the record. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St. -Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church." - -In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev. -Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox -Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster, -a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster) -sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language -Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically -that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the -organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas -Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston -was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the -Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral. - -Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that -would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission. -Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and -Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since -the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel -and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky, -a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it -possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank -in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an -eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St. -Seraphim's Church. - -Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel -conducted occasional services--Sunday Vespers weekly and an early -Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed -an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel -was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the -members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since -one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the -property. - -On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood -by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly -afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734 -McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two -groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month -and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time. - -In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and -both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted. - -Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October -31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the -Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St. -Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster. - -For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father -Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father -Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander. - -In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father -Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the -weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the -benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of -that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal -Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956. - -In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and -to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's -Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at -4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were -arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building -served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March -and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In -1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The -house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a -rectory. - -In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction -of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia. - -Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to -approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy -has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with -two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday, -Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays -and on holy days. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is -entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern -Orthodox Church," when was that prepared? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I have no idea because I have--let's see--the early -part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything -historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or -can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something, -and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it." - -Mr. JENNER. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this -historical summary? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's my understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you read this historical summary? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events -that are recited in that 1-page summary? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does -Father Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the -recital reasonably accurate? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does -not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here -he said: - -"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish, -"and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. -Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own." - -Well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along -together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two -churches. - -Mr. JENNER. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your -testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that -expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church, -that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the -English language. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were -said in what language, again? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal -reason either. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St. -Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the -sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian -origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Either fought or escaped. - -Mr. JENNER. Fought the Communists or Bolsheviks or escaped from their -regime. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--because there are lots of women and children over -there, you see, they never fought against them. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not -fight. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. And because of that common experience they tended to stay -together? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--more closely knit. - -Mr. JENNER. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of -the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas was organized to begin with. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it -and you are more active in that Church? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of -that group, are you not? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I am president. - -Mr. JENNER. You are president of that group, but you are a member of -the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a -parishioner? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or -given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon? - -Mr. DAVIS. I would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for -the split of the church? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I just made a statement a while ago. - -Mr. DAVIS. I didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was -split? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean, -it's purely personality. - -You see, Father Royster at that time--that's the main point--Father -Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians -it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to -the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained, -but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by -Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so -he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get -in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be -ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan, -B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the Ukranian branch of -Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and -so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic -facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and -in fact, Ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the -rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of -their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian. - -Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I -mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but -verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked -me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek -Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened. - -You see, some of the statements--like he said, "In September of 1958 -the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to -that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia." - -Well, he is Russian Metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country. - -Mr. JENNER. The words "in this country" should be added there? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor, -but substantially, it is correct--what he said. - -Mr. JENNER. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy -the historical statement into the record? - -The REPORTER. Yes, sir. - -(The instrument referred to is set forth on pp. 8 and 9 of this volume.) - -Mr. JENNER. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and -otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the -views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with -respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I -understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas -Church. - -Mr. JENNER. Largely? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. So--I don't know how that came about--perhaps she is -Russian. I can understand so much--she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is -Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners, -by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There's no question about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of the history, there's no question about -it--largely? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Largely. - -Mr. JENNER. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one -major motivating force? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who -are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they -also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be -the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn -the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their -opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in -America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in -St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are -getting to--that is the first time I heard she was Russian--they told -me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and -that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald, -how they helped her and everything else and I asked them--"How did it -happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened. - -Mr. JENNER. She went to St. Nicholas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; St. Seraphim's. - -Mr. JENNER. And that caused what? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they -understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life. - -Mr. JENNER. She did what? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to -sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are -atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized -in St. Seraphim's? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas -Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she -believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a -factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist, -because Communists are atheists? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but -there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct--which was that the Communists may have -been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way -to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community. - -Mr. JENNER. Lead people to believe that you were a Christian? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And not an atheist? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined -and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one -thing? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see--I don't trust them in any kind of a condition -or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any -difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful--it's just like Mr. -Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know, -lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he -lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how -they operate. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there in due course come into this community a man by -the name of George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were here when he came here, were you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in -Dallas while I was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to -see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere -in that neighborhood. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of him prior to that time? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I heard of him through Jake Hamon. - -Mr. JENNER. Through Mr. Hamon? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Hamon, H-a-m-o-n [spelling]--Jake. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is he? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known, -and he told me there was a Russian here--do I know him, and I said, -"No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him--at a party. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to -the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and -acquire some knowledge of his origin and background? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his -history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some -of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning -the business associations or contacts you may have had with him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt -comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans. - -Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by -the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and -they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations -and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, -and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" -Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"--yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand -that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the -University of Chicago. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the University of Chicago or Dartmouth? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Or what? - -Mr. JENNER. Dartmouth, or the University of Chicago? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It might be, now, but at that time when I first -learned it--he was at the University of Chicago. - -Mr. JENNER. And his first name? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say his first name was? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought you gave it to me the other day? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe I could get it from some other source? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--not from me. Now, when I first knew George he -was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in -Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his -own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil -operator. - -He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first -wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her name? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember; I'm sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have met her? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is -next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was--that's where -this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the -Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. Was her name Wynne, W-y-n-n-e [spelling]? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; we called her something else--it will come to -me--just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were -spastic. - -Mr. JENNER. Was a boy and a girl? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. One of them since died. - -Mr. JENNER. The boy? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my -understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as -I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and -when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim -the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts, -but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and -my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit, -that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to -Dallas and join this Russian community? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And be a member, because---- - -Mr. JENNER. A member of what? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of the social group that they were here originally. -You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you -it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the -suit--whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs. -Crespi can give you more information than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. whom? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one -who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that -time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been -borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time. -The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly. - -Mr. JENNER. The last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; $500. - -Mr. JENNER. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you -can't recall at the moment? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Isn't that funny? - -Mr. JENNER. And he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that -correct? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he married a third time? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A third time. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that his present wife? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And who is she? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question---- - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your -recollection? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean. - -Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she -was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that -she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our -form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist, -Anarchist or what. - -Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl. - -Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was -either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age--came -to China? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that -she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never -expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of -Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You -know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel -Jenner off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to -the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political -views? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you -say--"And political views?" - -Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then -his wife, Jean. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that -after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems -from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times, -he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the -Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to -provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would -like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but -in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had -some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes -him tick? - -He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and -we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his -personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with -you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the -political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a -character? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and -believe me, that's the only time--first of all, I've got George De -Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain -set of Russian emigre? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have -against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a -donation. - -Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt -like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he -never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me -any political questions or give me his views except one time when he -went to take the trip--the walking trip. - -Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border -down to Panama? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was -elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags -about things--he was bragging about many things. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he -met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why -didn't he shoot this b----d? - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?" - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding -smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative -in his attire in the sense of nonconforming? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best -definition I can give you. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a -by-the-Baltic German accent. - -Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it -is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think -she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was -definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George--now this -is again my idea---- - -Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your -idea. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I -don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George -in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give -him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a -religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead -the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything -but the Spartan life in this country. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when -he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal, -maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can -remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about -and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. To the banker--the banker--Commercial de Haiti. You -can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you -want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time--he was -trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with -Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and -they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could -pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get -people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I -believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of -Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's. - -Mr. JENNER. Down through Mexico? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI -and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or -nothing." - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. John De Menil? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine. -He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go -with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as -to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the -Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every -country in the world--you know what I am trying to say? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I do. I am familiar with the name Schlumberger. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And that he might be interested in going in business -in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and -nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down -after the investigation. - -Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some -correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things -began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I -thought I better keep a file on him. - -Mr. JENNER. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the -works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; you know, he was consultant to the Yugoslav -Government? - -Mr. JENNER. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government. -In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of -our Government, maybe--I don't know under what protocol that we were -helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in -order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some -man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--I can say this--I -don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him -because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times, -but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and -asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give -him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he -wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What -could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly -all right, I mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's your opinion of him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field -is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of -underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job, -and as far as I know he quit the job--he was not fired. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community -for truth and veracity? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this--I -don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person. - -Mr. JENNER. His reputation in that respect is poor or bad? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad. - -Mr. JENNER. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of -morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad. - -Mr. JENNER. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability -in the profession which he pursues? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Good. - -Mr. JENNER. For example--as a petroleum geologist? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; petroleum engineer--good. His knowledge of -languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I -believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there, -where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also -went there at the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal -American? If he has a reputation? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now, -remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you -see, than he was before with his second wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds -was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his -friends. - -Mr. JENNER. From a prior social circle? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he met them--I don't know where he met them, -but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was -originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt -in Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the last 5 years, let's say? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and -George Brown--they are brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. What business are they in? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, again, don't put this down. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr. -Raigorodsky, off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now; I want this on the record. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George has been friends with many, many influential -people in many cities. - -Mr. DAVIS. In all of them, I imagine. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of -important people? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--he was my friend, I was his friend--he was Jake -Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend. - -Mr. DAVIS. How often did De Mohrenschildt see him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jake? - -Mr. DAVIS. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and -George Brown? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite -often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to -deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any particular business that he had in -Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What information do you have regarding his interests or -business in Houston--I take it that it came from his making statements -to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, except in his dealing with John De -Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters--you -see, there is a copy from John De Menil. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do you have information as to whether he was required -to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He--I can't answer that. - -Mr. JENNER. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in -Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sure. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a professor at Rice Institute? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--he's head of the Russian church in -Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. He is the head of the Russian church in Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--I'm a -godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr. -Jitkoff's background. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. Jitkoff--he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you -call it. - -Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he, by the way, your best guess? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is -younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is 50 some odd -years--55. - -Mr. JENNER. He is closer to 50 than to 60? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he somewhere between 50 and 60? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a -tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club. - -Mr. JENNER. Where--Dallas or Houston? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is -teaching Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Was De Mohrenschildt an athletic man? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he interested in tennis? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; very much so. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically -inclined person? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Also interested in tennis? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport -to the extent of engaging in the sport itself? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. As far as I know--swimming. - -Mr. JENNER. Ice skating? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember anything about that, but they always -played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they -played tennis all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of them ever live in the Stoneleigh Hotel? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same -people--the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace--the -Tower Terrace. - -Mr. JENNER. Are these buildings all in proximity one with the other? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the -Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition to being an expansive person, is De -Mohrenschildt a generous man? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I would say he is a generous man. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the -goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in -like circumstances? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say he will do it because he wants to show -what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It -would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were -appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere, -while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and -sincere about it? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for -example? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. And was he a man given to extreme statements in public? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a -big party--I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I -met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at -a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons -and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do -it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would -say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever -it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and -somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's -the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest, -but we didn't know how much truth there was to it. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you give us the reason for that view? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he's liable to do anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no -control over himself, really? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's what it is--because of his character. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the -type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he -might hesitate to do himself? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business -in which he is engaged in Haiti? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government, -it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I -think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan -or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there--he -is there, and moved his furniture. - -Mr. JENNER. That's so--in the spring of 1963? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have had correspondence with him since? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De -Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate -almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything -else in it. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here is a letter of June 30 that must have been left -here. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this June 30, 1963, or 1962? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It must be 1963--yes, it is 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of -November 22--I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he -had been in Dallas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. After this--that's right; I see it is 1963, after this -fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas--which I was called on. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your -testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife -Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with -the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's -son. - -As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe -sued directly, to see what you could do to help out? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; friends of her family. - -Mr. JENNER. Friends of her family? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, Mrs. Crespi, appealed to me to see what I can -do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Crespi? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her -husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.--a cotton -exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Crespi? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you understand Mr. De Mohrenschildt is doing over -in Haiti? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Over there? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground -floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is -the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy -plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted -to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build -plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You -see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist -in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and -all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be -interested. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of -an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't a sort of--he is adolescent. - -Mr. JENNER. He is adolescent? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George will never grow old. - -Mr. JENNER. But will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He always did. - -Mr. JENNER. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that -amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. When we were 16--that's right--any kind of pranks. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a prankster? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean, -his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys -it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very -effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned. - -Mr. DAVIS. Would you say he is very distinct---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There is no word for that--very engaging, I suppose -would be the nearest. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think -De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Occasionally. - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with the Haitian venture? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he sought to have me to participate in the deal. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did or didn't? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was to be what kind of a deal? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he -was planning to do. - -(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken -from your file. There is handwriting on the chart--is that George De -Mohrenschildt's handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he send that chart to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; here's the envelope. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which -the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12, -1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of what he plans to do there. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what he planned to do? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows -he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking, -cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill, -weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available -for these industries." - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information that he is surveying the -physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is -how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting -jobs. - -Mr. JENNER. For the Haitian Government? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. For the Haitian Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you -informed? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know--I am not informed. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was -legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am -getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior -character? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I -think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John -De Menil. - -Mr. JENNER. Which he was sending to John De Menil? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a copy for me. - -Mr. JENNER. It is to John De Menil? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would I have your permission to have these documents in -your file duplicated? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure. - -Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would -have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously -pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in -which it was originally? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I will be able to go through it with you. - -(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs. -Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to -comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing -office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as -requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition -continued as follows:) - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows -what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and -everything. - -Mr. JENNER. There were two files there, as I recall it. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have them both--the other one is on the well -operation. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I understand. You were participating with him in some -drilling? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to -anything? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. One dry hole and one other. I want to ask you -something? - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H. -Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of -mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country. -We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago. -His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production -Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several -oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in -contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that -Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number -and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he -will come over here. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, I'm sure he is. - -Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Basil Zavoico? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is he? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Basil--he is a Russian. His father was a general in -the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been--his primary -business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant -on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been -with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a -business of his own mostly connected with oil financing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he at one time reside in Dallas? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he resided in Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George -De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings. -Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with -George than I had. - -Mr. JENNER. And he lives in Green Farms, Conn.? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything -that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first, -in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and -secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and -interests of George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told--it -is a hearsay--that after meeting Marina Oswald--the way Russians met, -there was a party somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. There was what? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A party--a social gathering. - -Mr. JENNER. A party? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Somewhere--I don't remember where. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in this country? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several -Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with -Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of -everything that they told me that stuck in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this -party? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say that Mr. Bouhe and Anna Meller. - -Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other -Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party. - -Mr. JENNER. We have had some off the record discussions all in the -presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred -during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have -failed to bring out. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off -of the record. - -Now, may I say something myself? - -Mr. JENNER. Certainly. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Would you care to know what my opinion of the -assassination is, or is that just an opinion? - -Mr. JENNER. All right; let's have it. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I still believe it is a conspiracy. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, on what do you base that opinion? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have read--I'm quite sure everything that you -have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these -interrogations. - -There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like -Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the -basis of your opinion in that respect? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them -operating, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off -the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I want that on the record. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well--the fact that they gave you all of the record, -they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around -in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out -of Russia--I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person -whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was -(snapping his fingers) so--just like that. It just reads too much like -a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they -surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things -which he received in Russia and in this country. - -Now, Marina, I don't know anything about her. - -Mr. JENNER. This is your supposition and rationalization on your part? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now. I have your file---- - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now you take anything you want out of it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's do it this way--I have your file which you -have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt." - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I will just identify these documents. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You don't need to. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I need it for my record. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, all right. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not questioning you. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'm not questioning you. - -Mr. JENNER. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate -telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or -what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a -circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. -1]. - -What are they and how did you get those? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent them to me. - -Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt sent that to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United -States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove -to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United -States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information -about him. - -Mr. JENNER. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a -letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston, -Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the -second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand -corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky." - -In whose handwriting is that notation? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. His. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and this was the--outlining a project in -Haiti and the West Indies. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there an outline enclosed? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian -Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George -De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National -Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.] - -That was enclosed with the letter? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline, -and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned. - -Mr. JENNER. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page -carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be -the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1, -1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De -Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. These documents were transmitted to you. Did you save the -envelope? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.] - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this looks like it. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in -his handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's August 1962? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's it. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read -that for me? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, yes; it is the Banque Commerciale D'Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De -Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles." -This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.] - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a photostat. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt send that to you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On or about July 31, 1962, or shortly thereafter. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The next document consists of--it looks like an -organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.] - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart -of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. And here again there is some longhand writing in ink. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that De Mohrenschildt's writing? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And his signature? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he also has written on there "Dallas, September 11, -1962." - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit -No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was -transmitted to you, too? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to -what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. -10.] And just a diagram? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything else accompany that diagram? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, I'm quite sure nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt -Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.--is that what that is? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no; that's De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt. -Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas." - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It has a signature by "Tardieu". How did you come by that? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent it to me. - -Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16], -appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr. -Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt." -On the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize -the handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's signed by George. - -Mr. JENNER. It's George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that -letter is you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the memorandum is for you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the -upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue -stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston, -Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then -apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and he investigated it later. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he -is not interested? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. But read this. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - - "Dear Paul: - - George De Mohrenschildt is a nice man, but I do not think his - project is very well cooked. It is slightly visionary and not - specific at all. This, of course, is my own personal reaction - which I am giving you for your confidential information. It was - also the reaction of my friend on Wall Street to whom I talked - in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea - of George De Mohrenschildt. - - With kinds regards and best wishes, - - Yours sincerly, - - /S/ JOHN DE MENIL - cp - John de Menil - - JdM:cp - - Dictated by Mr. de Menil over the telephone from New York." - -The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962, -with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit -No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You -received that, did you? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary; -is that correct? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to Mr. -George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August -27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. -10-B.] - -From whom did you receive that? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. From Mr. de Menil. - -Mr. JENNER. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The -envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May -11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First -National Building, Dallas, Tex. - -Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card -[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De -Mohrenschildt's handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it a card enclosed in that envelope? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is an original of a letter addressed to -Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M." -[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.] - -Is that George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that -letter in his handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you received that in due course? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This was written from Port-au-Prince. - -Mr. JENNER. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans -Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.] - -The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts, -it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over -the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt," -and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner -is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.] - -That is a letter to you, is it? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to -you, it looks like that is his handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, that George's handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September -12, 1963, was enclosed? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, I'm sure it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked -in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his -testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks -like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it -has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted, -accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note -on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18, -1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.] - -It begins, "Dear Paul," and is signed by "Geo. De M." - -Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's -handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, they are. - -Mr. JENNER. And was the card enclosed in the envelope here? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, and here is another letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on -both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at -Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit -No. 4.] - -Do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, Mr. -Raigorodsky? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. De Mohrenschildt's. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June -30--of what year? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1963. This is very interesting--this is a map of -Haiti. You see where he sent me--he said "Our Shada Concession." - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the -map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's George De Mohrenschildt's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that from him? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one -of the letters. - -Mr. JENNER. One of the letters I have identified? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But all of that is his handwriting? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil -possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession." - -Mr. JENNER. What is "Shada"? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's where he claims he had the concessions for the -hemp. - -Mr. JENNER. For hemp or sisal there? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sisal. - -Mr. JENNER. These things will all show up on any photostat immediately -of this? - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has -authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified -them in the record, so one thing is helpful--I don't have to go to the -trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and -secondly, in the event--if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I -will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of -this questioning of you. - -Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would -like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily, -also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to -the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to -here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been -under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this -personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the -foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11, -11-A, 14, and 14A. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost -at this moment as I was then. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been very helpful throughout this. - -Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this -deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will -be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some -corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a -privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also -have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your -deposition is with respect to all these alternatives. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when -you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help -you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we thank you very much. - -Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE) - -The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on -March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. -Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Come in Mr. and Mrs. Ray and sit down. - -Mr. RAY. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed -it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we -are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, I'm sorry. You are supposed to have 3 days' notice. - -Mr. RAY. That's all right. We're here now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this -time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you -before we start. - -(Witness complying.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about -to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. RAY. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and -Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I believe Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; and I read it and have your name, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order -and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure -governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that -letter and copies of such documents? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed -to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday. - -Mrs. RAY. Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is -entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose -technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not -have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you -are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that -correct? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the -events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was -held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related -to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about -meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas -during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into -that, would you state your full name for the record? - -Mrs. RAY. Me? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what is your full name? - -Mrs. RAY. Natalie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your last name is---- - -Mrs. RAY. Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. R-a-y [spelling]? - -Mrs. RAY. R-a-y [spelling]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence? - -Mrs. RAY. Route 3, Detroit, Tex.--here, you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Where were you born? - -Mrs. RAY. Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. Stalingrad. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when were you born? - -Mrs. RAY. In 1922, May 1922. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over -Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you -up and other Russian people? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp, -in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you in Germany? - -Mrs. RAY. I been there until I come to America, 1946. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States; -what were the circumstances of your coming here? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated -by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and -then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send -us to Russia. At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers, -something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we -be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him, -well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at -home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American -man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will -not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get -marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that -they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I -am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending -all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I -have to stay until we get married. Well, they--Russians don't give me -permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became -as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could -marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah, -I guess 1945 or 1946--let me see, yeah, in 1945 because--or 1946. I -guess. I'm sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were both in Germany at the time? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on, -you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come. -We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I -go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I -guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right; that's not important. - -Mrs. RAY. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946, -I'm sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to the United States with your husband, -is that correct? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; well, we stay year in Germany after we marry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then when he left Germany you came back to the United -States? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I go with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you an American citizen now? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I met them at this party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell -us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of -your recollection just how it happened. - -Mrs. RAY. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris, -Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my -address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have -any--nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with Russian speaking people? - -Mrs. RAY. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in -Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone -and said that--"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I -said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how -to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell -her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they -always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men -have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well, -I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have -contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr. -Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found -one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They -already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be. -She said on Friday--Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she -said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what -just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United -States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this, is that right? - -Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at -this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you -like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. - -Mrs. RAY. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will -come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went -to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were there, approximately, would you say? - -Mrs. RAY. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots -of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know -what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and -this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this -Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and -asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did -you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't -have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do -much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or--I said, "Oh, -that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have relatives in Russia now that you know of? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have a niece what I been--she write my mother passed -away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when -Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay -and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two -children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and -one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my -mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was she living in Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in -Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Kharkov? - -Mrs. RAY. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's -not too far from Kharkov. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I interrupted your story about your conversation with -Marina. Would you go on with that? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to -come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I -said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy -to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess -they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"--I let be get contact -now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get -her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and -I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you -want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her -husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody -and he speak just perfect Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak to you in Russian? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come -you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well, -he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You -just been three---- - -Mr. DAVIS. Excuse me, how long? - -Mrs. RAY. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him, -I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh, -it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always -staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to -be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe -he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I -don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would -want to tell you the answer? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, always; he be very close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to -learn Russian? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian. -I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English"; -I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak -Russian. He just came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect -a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3 -years? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know -American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really, -it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak -Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak -so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my -husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember -him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and -he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce -and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to -his wife, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with -Oswald as best you can recall it. - -Mrs. RAY. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and -we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her -about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking -her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and -we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much -conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her where she lived when she was in Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from -Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with -her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his -paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told -them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got -paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for -little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his -paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the -Russians; did she say? - -Mrs. RAY. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go -back to America. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long they stayed in Moscow? - -Mrs. RAY. She stayed 1 year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She said they were in Moscow 1 year? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American -Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow -before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian -Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her -paper and they left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians gave her the papers? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina mention she had lived in Leningrad at one time? - -Mrs. RAY. No; not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in -Kharkov? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn what kind of job Oswald had while he was in -Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory, -some factory and we don't get any details. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where this factory was located? - -Mrs. RAY. Located what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the factory that Oswald worked in? - -Mrs. RAY. In Minsk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do -you know about that? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they -coming and stay in Moscow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for -a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and -then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told -us that she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl, -she says she come back from Moscow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From Moscow? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know--let -me see how she say--that she come from Moscow. She fly--not fly--I do -not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but -she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she -been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For a year? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not tell you what they were doing there for -a job? - -Mrs. RAY. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and -that's as far as I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you -could tell? - -Mrs. RAY. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she -don't understand English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment -they had to live in when they lived in Minsk? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where they lived when they were in -Moscow? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that they may have told -you about the time that they were in Russia together? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things. -I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing. -All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so -easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my -impression been that everything is get better, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how much money Oswald was paid at his -job? - -Mrs. RAY. Where, there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. RAY. No, uh-uh. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why Oswald went to Russia in the first -place? - -Mrs. RAY. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he -went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to -Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he -want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then Mrs. Harris is one -that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to -stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's -party, is that right? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes--no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it -and Zena--that's Mrs. Harris--don't know either who they are but when -we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in -conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come -back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs. -Harris told you that, is that right? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion -about Oswald amongst the people there? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go -to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early--I don't -recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they -don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go -and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well, -we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at -this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they -gone and everything is forgot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that -there was a discussion about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah, next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that? - -Mrs. RAY. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We -went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we -staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but -she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2 -weeks, Marina and her baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"--said she just -want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and -then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna -Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other -words a week after? - -Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday, -that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask -by George Bouhe--or how you say? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe. - -Mrs. RAY. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what -being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and -that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his -wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both -there, is that right? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir; he. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yourself and your husband? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Harris. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Harris? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot -recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm; -I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been -from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Miss Biggers--Tatiana Biggers? - -Mrs. RAY. Tatiana Biggers, yeah, she from Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else there that you remember? - -Mrs. RAY. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't -remember what her name---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lydia Dymitruk? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what -was said at this party or get-together? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him, -well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come -America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him -back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't -know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what -they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia -and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what -for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said -"Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he -cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every -place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time -work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give -job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and -said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to -making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her -here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty. -They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been -trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have -nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her -and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her, -not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell -me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living. - -Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they -give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days -and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia -when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him -and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in -Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need -him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind -of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't -know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot--he don't -going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have -some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him." - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is what Bouhe said? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she -is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him, -we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else was said at this time? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't know; I cannot recall right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or -not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. Said Russia, -you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some -kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent -but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia -because so easy way to coming to America. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said -about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians? -What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can -recall the substance of that conversation. - -Mrs. RAY. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what -try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but -said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we -don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told -him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said, -"You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you -know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia -and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They -going to do such a trick that you surprise. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to college in Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. In Leningrad. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Leningrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this was while you were living in Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad -and then I went home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Back to Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you study in Leningrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Economist Statistics. - -Mr. DAVIS. Economics Statistics? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Economics Statistics. - -Mrs. RAY. Economics Statistics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you study? - -Mrs. RAY. Three and a half year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you study in Leningrad, what college? - -Mrs. RAY. Soljanoy Calach--that's salt. I suppose to after I finish -they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia, -Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish -in Irkutsk, Siberia. - -Mr. DAVIS. This was a Leningrad college? - -Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's Stalingrad. - -Mr. DAVIS. I mean college. - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; Leningrad--street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim -Gorky Street; that's college. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you there in Leningrad studying, what year, -what years? - -Mrs. RAY. You mean when? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. RAY. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not -permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go -this far--that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and -I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home -in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying -school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You -have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying -there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war -started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to -write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started -that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in -Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the Germans arrived in Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; when Germans come there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad -from about 1937, is that right, to 1941? - -Mrs. RAY. In 1941 when I coming home and just about 4 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you -started at the university in Leningrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3-1/2 year -and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you -know, practice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice -program in connection with your college? - -Mrs. RAY. No; at this time that's my job. That's where I have to go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go from Leningrad to Siberia to start -work? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come -back and then they assign me to Siberia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And, you actually went to Siberia before you came to -Stalingrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to -Leningrad? - -Mrs. RAY. This time I did not stay long. I had this plant they have on -ground. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Salt processing? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like -to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to -admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I -coming home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you -went there the first time? - -Mrs. RAY. No; but I been to Siberia before on practice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having -with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here -by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him -or asked him to do it. - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first I talk -with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said -why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him -back, never can tell what is going happen. George--one said he don't -have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is -silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--I -don't know how to explain. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mental case? - -Mrs. RAY. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any -count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have -enough sense. Said--they said they going to be through with him. They -don't want have anything to do with him any more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this conversation carried on in Russian or in English? - -Mrs. RAY. In Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your husband there at the time? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me -sometimes. He remember this discussion, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did -Mr. Bouhe? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on -English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we -tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald -might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married -to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason -that led you to suspect he might be an agent? - -Mrs. RAY. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot--I don't know -how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can -quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They -send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go -home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there -and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he -seems--from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but -not as far as this; other, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought that in addition to his apparent--in -addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he -was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was -able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought -he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to -believe that? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, main things--I don't thought those things be made -him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people -quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't -thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man -coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can -tell what they---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would do? - -Mrs. RAY. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they -don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to -other country and working. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people -who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside -Russia and be agents for Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I never received but I do know that we have it in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know; do you have schools like that? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in -military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We -study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the -people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need, -you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a -war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians do not want a war? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them -have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves, -but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures -where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other -countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to -always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as -much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it. -I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's -first time I meet these people. - -Mr. DAVIS. Where would that school be; do you know? - -Mrs. RAY. Which kind? - -Mr. DAVIS. School where they would teach people this. - -Mrs. RAY. That is really secret. They don't let you know. In Russia? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mrs. RAY. I don't know if they do train agents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were told this when you were going to school in -Leningrad, is that correct? - -Mrs. RAY. Yeah. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion -as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a -Russian agent? - -Mrs. RAY. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided -he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we -don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been -wondering, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree -that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did -not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian -agent? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they -do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be -not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such -difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any -such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not -Russian agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the other details of these -conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can -recall? - -Mrs. RAY. No; that all I recall right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his -wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that -correct? - -Mrs. RAY. No, sir; I never see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the -Commission should know that you have not already told us? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know nothing else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you would like to add to your -testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly -well? - -Mrs. RAY. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I -saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away -and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do -you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man; -made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there -here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when -my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well, -you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he -said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility -after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the -assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might -have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again? - -Mrs. RAY. No; we not. See, my husband called George Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and -said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said, -"Well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "We -just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any -enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure -out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they -don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we -been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just -want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one -Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and -he thinking I am telling--am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina, -and this man is---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Attorney General. - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank -you very much for coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY - -The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand? - -(Complying.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. RAY. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to -take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted -to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, -and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that -Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would -contact you to take your testimony. - -Mr. RAY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive -Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's -procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the -letter? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness -to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify -although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive -the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post -office. - -Mr. RAY. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your -testimony at this time? - -Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates -basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning -the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your -full name for the record? - -Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't. - -Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir? - -Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Texas? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir? - -Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a -hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for -Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right -now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am -going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as -assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2 -years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray? - -Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right? - -Mr. RAY. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which -you met and married your wife? - -Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already -know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army -used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen -work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she -and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was -go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and -feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her -back to the United States; is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later -discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in -Frankfurt. - -(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney -general of Texas leaves the room.) - -Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think -actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which -would have been 16, 17 months, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank -when you met your wife? - -Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your -wife when you were in Germany? - -Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps -but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send -all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to -Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and -never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government -stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go -back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about -our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get -all the Russian nationals back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian -authorities before she could marry you? - -Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't -say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see -the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here? - -Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was -during that time that they were trying to send them all back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and -his wife, Marina? - -Mr. RAY. I met them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your -meeting them, where was it, what happened? - -Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how -you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your -contact was. - -Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his -wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or -something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten -acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and, -actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over -here. We came and we met them over here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the party? - -Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met? - -Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to -go to the Ford party? - -Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we -went to this party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of -Declan P. Ford? - -Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were -made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford -from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be -and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we -were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes -on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was -said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along -with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and -went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday -night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on -Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until -Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at -the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald -was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because -when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get -acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't -get acquainted with Oswald or his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald -at all? - -Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a -handshake or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can -remember at the moment, is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. No, I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald? - -Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was -kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have -any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English? - -Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English, -is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the -ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you? - -Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I -wasn't around him very much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford -party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in -your presence? - -Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember? - -Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or -Miller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right? - -Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband -was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]? - -Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time? - -Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and -Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston -was there. I believe she was from Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name? - -Mr. RAY. No; I don't now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you? - -Mr. RAY. What was the first name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana. - -Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe -she was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe? - -Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got -acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there? - -Mr. RAY. Well, I might. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really. - -Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to -the best of your recollection. - -Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a -nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think -the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of -this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to -help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly, -George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion? - -Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too -good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He -wasn't real good to her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have -beaten Marina up? - -Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had -gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was -the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he -was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned? - -Mr. RAY. Yeah. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald? - -Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald -along these lines as far as you can remember? - -Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea -and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed -me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did -have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said -at this point? - -Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no. -I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee -and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and -that's the way it went. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether -or not Oswald might be a Russian agent? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me -like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for -all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States -and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time -that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you -know what I mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean? - -Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my -mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked -odd to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife -out partly related to the difficulties you had had? - -Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known -the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and -you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered -at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much -trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did -look odd to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember -amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this -question? - -Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say -whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago -and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you -know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I -wouldn't say for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in -Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people -that were at the house? - -Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some -Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to -death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian -and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all. -I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking -to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of -leaves Ed and I out when we are together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion -on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't -want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you -remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have -good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a -job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these -reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was -not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines? - -Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and -I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the -Russians would not want him or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint -recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you -believe? - -Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility, -see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying -is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it -is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm -recollection? - -Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the -Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit -prior to the assassination? - -Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had -completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure -we talked about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation -might have been? - -Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the -country. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned? - -Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that -they might have sent him back for something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you -recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's -involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the -assassination? - -Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got -home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald -and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the -guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know, -the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know, -brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes -misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be -mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President. -I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the -President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and -so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these -people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the -guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short -conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said -it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time -I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year -had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a -year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he -remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told -me "Yeah, that's the guy." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or -not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have -been the man who really did assassinate the President? - -Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how -Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place -at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all -those places in that short length of time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what -he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at -this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories? - -Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure -how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and -then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how -many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre. - -Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from -place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little -doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement -based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and -you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did -not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he -was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion -with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George -was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He -said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying -to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy -when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I -remember that statement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he -tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his -previous association with Oswald? - -Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying -to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind? - -Mr. RAY. I think so; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told -us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe? - -Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the -paper", said "It's all in there." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I -don't remember anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about -that? - -Mr. RAY. About this deal? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time? - -Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody -else that was at this party about this assassination? - -Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now, -that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie -a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but -anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we -did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to -get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and -on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and -that's--of course, we discussed it then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together -at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was -discussed? - -Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the -whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into -the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how -it came about, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was -there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a -Russian agent? - -Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was -said about it? - -Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or -agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a -Russian agent? - -Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a -Russian agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did -you get that opinion? - -Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I -would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever -telling you that they thought he was? - -(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.) - -Mr. RAY. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be? - -Mr. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or -not he was a Russian agent or might be? - -Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation -that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or -something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course, -you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would -want, you know, for a Russian agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is just---- - -Mr. RAY. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the -people that knew him thought; I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is just your own thought on it? - -Mr. RAY. That is my own thoughts on it, see. - -Mr. DAVIS. Have you all--I might inject here--have you all gone over -the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of -these other people that it was strange about them being able to come -out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move -about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that -it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and -my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country -and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or -longer--how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him---- - -Mr. DAVIS. Going on 3 years. - -Mr. RAY. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of -ridiculous to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the -Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife, -wasn't it? - -Mr. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where -the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there -been very frequent--I mean, have you and your wife gone--I believe this -was the first time? - -Mr. RAY. This was the first time we ever. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did they mention about this having happened fairly -frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in -Dallas? - -Mr. RAY. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know, -somewhere around New Year's--Christmas or New Year's; something like an -annual affair for them to get together. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you know--were there any others in this group or did -you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story -like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go -out of Russia? - -Mr. RAY. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were -Russian descent or else they were like--they had married a Russian over -there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody -there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard of no other examples where people had come -out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct? - -Mr. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You know or did you hear of it? - -Mr. RAY. I did not hear. - -Mr. DAVIS. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since -the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and -go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to -contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this -proved to be? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on -the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and -the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally -gave up. - -Mr. DAVIS. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence -it has been made easier to communicate back and forth? - -Mr. RAY. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a -couple years before we even knew it. - -Mr. DAVIS. How long has this been you received that information? - -Mr. RAY. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by -when my wife found out about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she -died, do you know? - -Mr. RAY. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure -that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near -Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you -know, took place, in Arzamas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know -or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion -that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this -point, go right ahead. - -Mr. RAY. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down -here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much. - -Mr. RAY. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with -what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the -guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses -of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI, -because of that. They might contact these people and find out more -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think they have talked to most of them. - -Mr. RAY. I am sure they have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN - -The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen? -Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give? - -Mr. BALLEN. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin -mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact -you this week to take your testimony. - -The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to -authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -and Joint Resolution of Congress 137. - -Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of -the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did -receive those, did you not? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts -with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your -association with George De Mohrenschildt. - -Will you state your full name? - -Mr. BALLEN. Samuel B. Ballen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. BALLEN. 8715 Midway Road. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? - -Mr. BALLEN. Dallas 9. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir? - -Mr. BALLEN. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior -officer in several corporations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Included among those corporations is the High Plains -Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are an American citizen, sir? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in the United States? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? - -Mr. BALLEN. In New York City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. BALLEN. November 1950. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your age, sir? - -Mr. BALLEN. Forty-two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background? - -Mr. BALLEN. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend -Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y., -and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University, -Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University, -and Texas A&M. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were the graduate courses in, generally? - -Mr. BALLEN. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum -engineering. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? - -Mr. BALLEN. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy. - -My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De -Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife -had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from -Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems, -that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a -job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for -him. - -I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately -2 hours with him. - -He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to -go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with -him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to -the YMCA where he was residing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision? - -Mr. BALLEN. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or -the very early part of 1963. - -I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down -the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and -that was also true of Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you; -do you know? - -Mr. BALLEN. He indicated to me that he was not employed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that -correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. He told me that his--I knew he had a -wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some -friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where his wife was staying? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De -Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BALLEN. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just -coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very -vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the -Oak Cliff region. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous -employment? - -Mr. BALLEN. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him -and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop -some employment for him. - -He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in -the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction, -but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his -lack of any usable training. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told -you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia? - -Mr. BALLEN. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may -have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper -in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use -commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a -result of his interview with you? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started -out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having -a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out -feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had -been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore -on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a -rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded -individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him -down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting, -trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical -Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction -equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area -of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the -conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too -much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the -team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I -think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what -I could do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this -to try to help him find a job? - -Mr. BALLEN. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached -my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general -manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be -generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any -memory of my calling him in that regard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The other individual being the man in charge of -operations at Log Services? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this -conclusion that you have just expressed? - -Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to -your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that -you and Oswald had that day? - -Mr. BALLEN. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from -De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and -come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine -Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector. - -I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this -Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for -himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors -had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He -gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion -of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was -hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there. - -I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make -this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a -negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still -had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be -fairly realistic. - -Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of -detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own -institutions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along -that line? - -Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but -there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general -observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me -that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R., -and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached -student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be -snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press -or official spokesmen. - -He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses -type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me -the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible -industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he -could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept -saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he -said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you -worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it -became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think -will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular -hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government? - -Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective -reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him, -I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the -course of your discussion? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited -as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would -have--this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I -would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards -President Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You drew that inference simply as a general impression -based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically -that led you to that conclusion? - -Mr. BALLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor -Connally mentioned? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; it was not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular -institution of the United States? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our -religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he -referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the -United States. I cannot document that with any specific items which -were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this -had come out during that discussion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem? - -Mr. BALLEN. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the -meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had -a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that -this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of -compassion for mankind generally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies -which had as their end racial prejudice? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt -that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of -any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable -you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced -by racist or hate propaganda? - -Mr. BALLEN. You will have to make your question more specific. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who -would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated -with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind -of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the -position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union -and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of -plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute -their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the -situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward -hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them? - -Mr. BALLEN. I think I understand your question, and there would have -been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular -organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain -difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not -ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in -this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as -heck to gain employment. - -I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of -training you have, if you get employment." - -And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training -other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work -he did in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am -sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I -have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have -worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about -camera and reproduction equipment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? - -Mr. BALLEN. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as -to what his income was? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income -while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this--his job? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a -little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. BALLEN. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of -sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the -United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out; -and I got out." - -I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious -effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she -was reporting to us that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts -were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty -miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at -each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to -bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people -and mingle and otherwise. - -George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our -house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing -that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something -in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife -didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation -to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of -them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had -of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He -was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And -my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise -would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently -moved into Dallas from afar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember with any great specificity the things -that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such -an independent fellow? - -Mr. BALLEN. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have, -a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the -shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within -the Soviet Union in any way? - -Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that he had done considerable -traveling there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you -get that information or impression? - -Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet -Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just -incredibly boring and dismal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring -or dismal in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came -down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to -impose on him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you question him--did you have questions in your own -mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling? - -Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who -could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very -little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he -did, engender a certain amount of sympathy. - -In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and -if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like -that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get -around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of -money to do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him -money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing -that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the -wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit; -"Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get -myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to -a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had -received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was -in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received -in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about -photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated -that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and -understanding of that type of machinery? - -Mr. BALLEN. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment -myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different -types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous -cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Marina? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital -when he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the -Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his -return to the United States? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this -thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and -now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into -all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because -he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to -renounce his citizenship? - -Mr. BALLEN. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would -have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a -job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was -employed and lived in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so -much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and -what I have read in the newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was -employed in the city of Minsk? - -Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. I would have thought that he would -have--my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of -Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while -in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't ask him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his -wife when he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as his return to the United States is concerned, -you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to -leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the -bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any -resentment? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made -life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human -being. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and -Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating -to possible resentment of the United States? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the -Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as -Russia? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians -who had delayed his return, is that correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. Well, it was a matter of working then through these -bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the -American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the -same? - -Mr. BALLEN. I would say about equal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning -politics? - -Mr. BALLEN. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to, -parenthetically. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational -background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and -that sort of thing? - -Mr. BALLEN. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate -conclusion I came to was that he left--that he lacked educational -training. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper -in New Orleans? - -Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction -facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans, -and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in -New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you -about his activities in New Orleans? - -Mr. BALLEN. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans, -and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban -committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this -was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with -any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or -any part of the political spectrum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist? - -Mr. BALLEN. He may have--I think I had the feeling that he, to the -extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and -was a critic of societies along Marxist lines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about -religion? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I -think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview -with him, made statements to reenforce that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about -Oswald before you actually met Oswald? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir. -Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had -been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either -for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred, -and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of -Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking -young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length -in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back -who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow -with no hatred. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no -hatred of anything? - -Mr. BALLEN. That is what--De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that -his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with -hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions -connected with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind -when you met and talked to Oswald? - -Mr. BALLEN. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent; -yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that -he would have had a little disdain for both sides. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get the impression, however, that he was -emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two -sides? Would that be a fair statement? - -Mr. BALLEN. Definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not -be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda -that might be disseminated in the country? - -Mr. BALLEN. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and -would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United -States, including our Government. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced -by propaganda of this sort? - -Mr. BALLEN. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't -appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference, -to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress -me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way, -and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to -involve him in my firm, which means a team operation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person -or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence? - -Mr. BALLEN. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the -unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the -degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It -was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable? - -Mr. BALLEN. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen? - -Mr. BALLEN. Too much a hard head? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that? - -Mr. BALLEN. I--just his general conduct, his general responses, general -bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just -seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively, -a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally -ill, I didn't come away with that feeling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at -self-improvement or self-education that you could give us? - -Mr. BALLEN. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership, -literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little -curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of -reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as -someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian -literature? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to -comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he -understood them to be Marxian leanings? - -Mr. BALLEN. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly -his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity -to go into that with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about -December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald? - -Mr. BALLEN. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and -Mitchell. - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were -familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings? - -Mr. BALLEN. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I -have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your answer was? - -Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were -unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of -the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia? - -Mr. BALLEN. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective -on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the -newspapers--all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the -best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my -memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not conscious of any difference in those two -answers? - -Mr. BALLEN. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the -same as my answer here today. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Assuming that was your answer that day? - -Mr. BALLEN. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my -best memory and best recollection at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relationship between -Oswald and De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BALLEN. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events -after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George -meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this -fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for -individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his -wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that -this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were -leaving for Haiti. - -George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a -week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes -more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house -at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the -Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at -the wall and fighting each other." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was -an attempt made on the life of General Walker? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BALLEN. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss -either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that -occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some -pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed -it with him in any great---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in -connection with the attempt on Walker's life? - -Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he did? - -Mr. BALLEN. I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald -owned a rifle? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact -that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind -in that conversation? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first -time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that? - -Mr. BALLEN. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday -morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of -about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people, -that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but -some other stray dog. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who this other stray dog was? - -Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his -way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently disappeared from the scene? - -Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De -Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been -arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. BALLEN. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize -that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3 -hours later that this was the chap I met. - -I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake, -that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and -she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the -gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if -you lined up 50 individuals, the one person who would stand out as -being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very -surprised when Oswald was arrested. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further conversations along that line -with your wife? - -Mr. BALLEN. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would -naturally discuss it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to -your wife when you first learned of the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren -Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as -reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there -remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to -seeing the published report. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it -not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had -any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to -commit an act of this sort, is that correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any contact between Oswald and Jack Ruby? - -Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BALLEN. Approximately 1955, maybe 1954. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since -this assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. Only through the mails. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have corresponded with him since the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write about the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that -mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his -environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very -guarded way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me in general what you wrote to him? - -Mr. BALLEN. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said -in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was--I wanted to know -that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he -understood what I was asking him. - -And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and -Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened, -because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed -mind out into the open air. - -And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me -for what she thought were kind sentiments. - -Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and -let him know I wondered how he was getting along. - -And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race -riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let -us hear from you." - -Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were -guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George -and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him? - -Mr. BALLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the letters he wrote to you? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his -wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of -letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them -until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are -the only letters that I have ever saved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned De Mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law? - -Mr. BALLEN. Well, his wife's daughter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. His wife's daughter? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are their names? - -Mr. BALLEN. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De -Mohrenschildts call them Buggers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a -period of time? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long, approximately? - -Mr. BALLEN. About 2 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They originally resided in Anchorage, Alaska, is that -correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. Well, that is where they formerly resided; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have they permanently moved from Anchorage? - -Mr. BALLEN. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from -him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and -Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald? - -Mr. BALLEN. They say they had not, and in thinking through the -chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some -confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual -who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try -to help. - -They drove him to east Texas once and to a timber farm. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the other person whom you described a little -while back as another stray dog? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have -any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said -about the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly -stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and -that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently -had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to -be banding about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and -Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying -publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the -assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy? - -Mr. BALLEN. They told me that they stated that at a reception for -members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when that reception was? - -Mr. BALLEN. It would have been while Chris and Rags were in Haiti. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt -make this remark? - -Mr. BALLEN. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your -question directly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the -dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince? - -Mr. BALLEN. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through -my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my -house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come -through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and -they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did they show up at your house again for the second -time? - -Mr. BALLEN. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been -at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at -about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house -March 1, and left March 15, more or less. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the -conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks -allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house. - -Mr. BALLEN. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that -they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all -of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that -sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission. - -The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed -him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and -probably had a tail on him. - -He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty -serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he -then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see -him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and -so they came out to my house and interviewed him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks -that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made? - -Mr. BALLEN. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was -there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room -where they were. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the agent who came out? - -Mr. BALLEN. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from -California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One of the two agents that interviewed you when? - -Mr. BALLEN. About March 6th or 7th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The interview that you have just referred to concerns -your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that -the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and -Raymond P. Yelchek? - -Mr. BALLEN. The gentleman who came out to my house was Mr. Wood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was Mr. Wood that interviewed Rags, is that correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags discuss with you the interview after the agent -had left? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with -De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark -that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President? - -Mr. BALLEN. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested -vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already -known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated -into quite a personality clash. - -I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very -critical on personal grounds of Rags. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why was De Mohrenschildt critical of Rags, do you -remember? - -Mr. BALLEN. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question -now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal -matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a -son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that -his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons -seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and -maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about. - -But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a -personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything--any bearing -here. If you want me to discuss it, I will. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a -purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me. - -Mr. BALLEN. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his -overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall -nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this -was one of the sources of some conflict. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They had political differences, in other words, also? - -Mr. BALLEN. In their overall perspective; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told us everything that you can remember -about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De -Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell -us everything about that that you can remember, either about your -conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation -with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De -Mohrenschildt's statements. - -Mr. BALLEN. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there -was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by, -well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the -French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a -foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also -at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free -republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result -of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else -who was at this party, that you can remember? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with -me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there. - -I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's -statement and was known to the American Embassy down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Rags said about that? - -Mr. BALLEN. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that -George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American -Embassy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had -been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince? - -Mr. BALLEN. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that -he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr. -Wood--was that his name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood was the gentleman who interviewed Rags. - -Mr. BALLEN. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood -indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his -interview of you, is that correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and -Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and -Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they -were looking fine. - -But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told -him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And -he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the -gray flannel suit boys. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you any details of his conversation with -the FBI? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your -knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any -reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been -involved in the assassination in any way? - -Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this matter with anybody? - -Mr. BALLEN. Would you make your question a little more specific? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De -Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized -that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I -then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better -have a good answer to that one. - -And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian -colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met -him through George Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Mr. Bouhe about that? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I haven't seen George Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and -Oswald had met through Bouhe? - -Mr. BALLEN. It would have either been Declan Ford or Natasha Voshinin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility -that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the -assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anybody else discuss that question? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is, -the first time I have heard that question raised is today. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified, -when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that -De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De -Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is -that correct? - -Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the -contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did -you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with -Oswald prior to the assassination? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the -feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their -leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt -corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti? - -Mr. BALLEN. I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other matter about which you might -have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think -should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with -this matter? - -Mr. BALLEN. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely -discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed -up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and -finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and -consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best, -but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I -would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as -anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was. - -George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were -both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were -befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good -personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth -in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning -the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy. - -Mr. BALLEN. Do I have any reason to believe that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would -only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my -mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative -possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000 -other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some -unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either -of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that -the FBI was involved? - -Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De -Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have -uttered? - -Mr. BALLEN. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state, -that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there -any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That -there are no reasons, and this is a madness. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he -believed this? - -Mr. BALLEN. None were expressed to me; no, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you want to add? - -Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Ballen. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK - -The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in -the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and -Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert Jenner. - -Mrs. Dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please? - -I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear -that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Be seated please. - -Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff -counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the -President of the United States to investigate the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the -President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United -States No. 137. - -Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for -the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your -deposition taken? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive -order and the resolution to which I have made reference? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine -American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution, -the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain -respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F. -Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons -involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information -that you have some possible information that might help us with respect -to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you -about that. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am ready. - -Mr. JENNER. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and -relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to -happen to you. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I'm not afraid. - -Mr. JENNER. Your name is Lydia Dymitruk? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly pronounce your name? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's all right. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is -[spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You live at 3542-1/2 10th Street in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of -Dallas--because I understand that would offend you. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir [laughter]. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is a large Texas city about, what--25 or 30 miles -from here? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I like it very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the -Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that's a beautiful store. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It is--it is beautiful store and nice place to work--and -I like it. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. How long I'm in Fort Worth? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let me see--I think it was from August. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what year? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Last year. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And where have you resided prior to August 1962? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Why? - -Mr. JENNER. Where? You came to Fort Worth in August 1962, did you say? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah; yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. From where? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. From Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had been a resident of Dallas up to that time? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long had you been a resident of Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, about 4 years--and 3, 4 months. - -Mr. JENNER. And from where had you come when you came to Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Belgium--Brussels. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Belgium? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am a citizen of Belgium. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a citizen---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Born in Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered -personal questions but I'm not merely curious--I'm seeking information. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thirty-seven. - -Mr. JENNER. Thirty-seven. - -Are you married? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been married? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In this country or in Belgium or in Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was married in Belgium. - -Mr. JENNER. Married in Belgium? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband come with you to this country? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. He came first to United States, and I came afterward. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you -were born, to Belgium. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the -war and brought to Germany--Dusseldorf. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this your parents and you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; just sister--an older sister and I and that's all. -We are separated from the family. - -Mr. JENNER. And the German Army took you to Dusseldorf? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies, -essentially? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. The Americans. - -Mr. JENNER. The Americans? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -And you and your sister went to Belgium, did you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; 1945. After the war. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, my arithmetic is very bad. How old were you then? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1945? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, 17. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were -captured by the Germans? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you live in Russia when you were captured by the -Germans? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Rostov. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-s-t-o-v? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or is that "o-w"? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; it's "v". - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any brothers? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just yourself and your sister were the only children? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And a little sister--she was born after the war, in -1947. So, I haven't seen her. - -Mr. JENNER. Your parents are still in Russia as far as you know? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. They are; yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Were either of your parents active politically in Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Active politically? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist -Party, for example? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your husband still in this country? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago--3-1/2 years -ago. I don't know where he is. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it for part of this time at least--was he an -American? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he was from White Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. White Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were married in Belgium, were you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he preceded you to this country? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he settle here in the Dallas area? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he settled for awhile. And--uh--he never settled -down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a -better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. His occupation? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. He was a draftsman. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is he now an American citizen? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. And you certainly are? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not yet. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you're not yet? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What status are you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. What is your status? Have you applied? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I -would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't -write. So that's why I have to go to school first. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, to write English? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. To have examinations you have to learn writing -English. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. But you are doing that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; I study at home. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And the Constitution of the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; great document! - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of your marriage? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No children. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a lady by the name of Anna Meller? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Sometimes pronounced "Miller"? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me your acquaintance with Anna Meller. How did it come -about? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. When I came to United States---- - -Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. What year was that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think it was 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to the United States and you came to -Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You joined your husband here? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with Anna Meller? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not through him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Through George Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of--what is -today? Yes, Monday. - -George Bouhe--he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great -interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a -little church, did he not? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, he helps everybody I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's a short, bald-headed man? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps -everybody--Germans, Belgians, everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. He's a generous man? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. He just like to help. That's all---- - -Mr. JENNER. He's bouncy and vigorous. All right. I interrupted you. Go -ahead. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with Anna Meller? - -Mrs DYMITRUK. Yes; I met her at George's house---- - -Mr. JENNER. You met her where? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. At George Bouhe's house. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I -go visit her at home. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What church is that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It's the Russian church. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian Orthodox Church? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Russian Orthodox Church. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of it? Saint somebody or other? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One -is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times -I went to George Bouhe--but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's -his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just -likes everybody to go there--but I prefer to go to this one--Father -Dimitri's church. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party -somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband. - -Mr. JENNER. In their home? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1962, you were living in Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962; yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. You had an apartment of your own at that time? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was on McKinney Avenue. - -Mr. JENNER. McKinney? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. McKinney Avenue. Yes. Palm Gardens Apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange -between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your -befriending or harboring another lady--taking somebody into your -home--your apartment? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation at any time between you and -Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home -temporarily? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just -one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation--I -remember it--that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody -in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her -husband. - -Mr. JENNER. Separated? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to -help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of her at that time? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard about her, yes; but I haven't met her. - -Mr. JENNER. From whom? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe. -Both of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Told you about---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and -she are looking for--uh--to help--for somebody can help her to find a -living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with -somebody, but I don't know with whom. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about -this lady? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; she told me--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she--what did they tell you about her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I visit her on Sunday once and--uh--she told me that -Marina was in her apartment for a week. - -Mr. JENNER. Had lived with Mrs. Meller a week? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her -husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her -baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. The husband would not take them to the hospital? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. The baby to the hospital or to see a doctor. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she asked me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Meller asked you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see -her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've -got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to -go. So--and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't -know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better -go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me -the address and she says, "If you can go--if you go to her and see -her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary--English -dictionary--hers and George Bouhe's--dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay." - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the -Oswalds, would you please bring with you---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. English-language and Russian-language dictionaries---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were English. - -Mr. JENNER. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would -then bring them---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. To her. - -Mr. JENNER. To Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Those books were at Marina's house. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and -other one, Anna Meller gave it to her. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were both English-language dictionaries? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; English-Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. English-Russian? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -So, she asked me to bring it back--those books. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, it was on Tuesday early in the morning---- - -Mr. JENNER. Tuesday? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Tuesday. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought you said Thursday? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; Tuesday is my day off. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house--I found her -house--and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was she at home? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first, -to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute--maybe 5 or 10 -minutes--and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was -so many apartments--some empty--and, you know, I just couldn't find -her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I -knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald -and she said, "Yes." - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you ever met Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The -first I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. She said, "well, yes?" - -And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me -that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you -to bring that baby to the hospital." - -"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with -him. I don't know what to do." - -And I said, "Where is he?" - -"Well, he's working." - -I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I -said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?" - -She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I -don't know." - -I said, "Well, okay. Let's go to the hospital." - -Mr. JENNER. Were you speaking in Russian? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian -language--you speak Russian well? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak -Russian well? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So--and she said that the baby had 103---- - -Mr. JENNER. Fever? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Fever. And I said--it was some kind of cold -weather--"You had better put some warm clothes--and in the car it's -warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby." - -She said, "Well, all right." - -So, it was about 10 o'clock or 10:30---- - -Mr. JENNER. In the morning? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. In the morning. - -I went to the Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we'll just hesitate a minute. - -Did you enter the apartment? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around -the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or -did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You -know. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh--I think she was all right. And house was clean. And -it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment -when I came to United States--so---- - -Mr. JENNER. So, she was neat, the apartment was neat and clean---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was neat and clean? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression -of her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what sex was this baby--girl or boy? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was a girl. - -Mr. JENNER. A little girl. About how old? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. (Gesturing with hands.) Baby couldn't walk. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting -at. She was carrying the baby in her arms? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about -her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they -getting along well--or what was your impression in that respect? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I haven't seen him at all--so, I couldn't say -anything---- - -Mr. JENNER. I know, but from what she said, Mrs. Dymitruk? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, that's what she said about her husband--that he's -against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to -pay the bills. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't -have to pay anything or maybe something--I don't know. - -So, I took her to the hospital with her baby. - -Mr. JENNER. You went to the Parkland Hospital here in Dallas? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you drove Marina and her child? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked -the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature -to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have -a children's doctor here." - -Mr. JENNER. Do not have a children's doctor? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver -babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's -doctor. - -Mr. JENNER. Yeah. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't -know what to do with the baby now." - -"Well, if you can come in the evening." - -Mr. JENNER. The doctor or the attendant said---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That was the nurse. - -And she said, "Well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the -children." - -I said, "Is it possible to find somebody else right now?" - -Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know--I don't have my own -children but really I was scared to see baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to -another children's hospital in Dallas." - -And that's what I did. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Marina and the baby then drove to---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where that was? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little -hospital--children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to -pay anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Just for children. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children -there waiting. - -Mr. JENNER. 40? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. There were so many children. - -And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is -possible right away. - -Mr. JENNER. Because the baby has a fever? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and she said, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help it." - -Mr. JENNER. Cannot? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. "I cannot--because they have so many children here and -you have to wait your turn." - -I said, "Maybe those children----"--I see around there--playing -around--so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't -you take baby right away?" - -"Oh, no; you have to wait 3 or 4 hours"--or something like that. - -I said, "Well, I'm sorry. We have to go home." - -So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her, -"Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If -you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening." - -She said, "Yes." - -So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock--maybe 5 o'clock or -something--I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her -husband wasn't home. - -Mr. JENNER. Was not? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you -to the hospital. Do you want to go?" - -She said, "Yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back." - -I said, "Okay." - -So he came home and first he was eating---- - -Mr. JENNER. Were you introduced to him? - -Mr. DYMITRUK. Yes. She said, "That's my husband." And he spoke Russian -to me. - -Mr. JENNER. He did speak Russian? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and I was really surprised--in short time, he spoke -nicely. - -Mr. JENNER. He spoke pretty good Russian? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -So--and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. -And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay." - -So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and -they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a real argument? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was. Yes. I could hear from the kitchen that they -argued. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a heated argument? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were just--uh--I don't know what it was all -about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to -the hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't -want to go, she did? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to go but he---- - -Mr. JENNER. He did not want to go? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the -hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right." - -So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were -children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He--the -doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray--a lung X-ray and, I don't -know, all kind of tests, right away. - -So, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, I think it was two -copies or three copies of papers---- - -Mr. JENNER. From the hospital? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. From the doctor to go to the service desk. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, at the service desk--he was standing here -[indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the -baby. So--and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's -working, and he said "No." - -Mr. JENNER. Not working? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment--do you get -some unemployment money?" - -He said, "No." - -And she said, "Well, how do you live then?" - -He said, "Well, friends helping me." - -And Marina--she was behind me--and she says, "What a liar!" - -And they argue again. - -Mr. JENNER. They argued--between the two of them? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, in Russian language. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just -told us? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's what she told. That's what she told. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he hear her say that--is what I'm---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes--because then they were in argument. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, they got in an argument? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the argument about? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, about the--that he is not working--because he was -lying. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say why he lied? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. He didn't say anything. - -So, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I -think so--but he put it in his pocket. - -Mr. JENNER. He put the paper in his pocket? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. In his pocket. - -And so we came out and I brought them home--and I didn't come into the -house. - -Mr. JENNER. They just got out of the car and went in? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. They didn't say anything--thank you or -what--anything. - -Mr. JENNER. To you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. They just got out? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay -any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is -free. It's suppose to be free here, too." - -I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted. - -Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With him? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him [laughing]---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of -his argument was that these things were free in Russia---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And they should be free in the United States? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he -shouldn't be paying? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; that's what he figures. - -Mr. JENNER. When, if ever, did you next see either Marina or Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime--I think was -in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked -in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store--located -in Wyatt's Store there. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a supermarket? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. And I managed the bakery. - -So, I saw her shopping---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I assume you speak French, too, do you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very little. - -Mr. JENNER. Very little? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. Flemish and German. - -Mr. JENNER. Flemish and German and Russian--and English? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And English. - -Mr. JENNER. You do very well with English. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her -dressed maternity. - -Mr. JENNER. So she had the same child she had the year before? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was pregnant with another child? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was dressed like she was. - -And I just saw her from far--and I said, "Marina?" - -"Oh!" she says, "How are you?" - -I said, "Okay." - -Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize you? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. And she said, "Do you see anything on me?" - -I said, "Well, I don't know." - -She said, "Well, I expect another baby." - -I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your -husband doing?" - -"Oh, he's in New Orleans. And I'm going to New Orleans, too." - -And there was another lady with her. - -Mr. JENNER. There was another lady? Would you describe the other lady, -please? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was tall, black hair. She spoke Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her command of Russian? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very--not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I -thought she was English first--her type of face. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American--and I went to the -university and studied Russian--and I practice now with Marina." - -I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need -another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the -Russian language. - -And I thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]--I don't know. - -And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say -that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive -Marina to New Orleans? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of the year was this? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Years and dates, I'm just lost. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, was it in the spring? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, no, no. It was in summertime. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in the summertime? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I -think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the last time I saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you saw Marina? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the last time you had even any indirect -contact--people speaking of her--that is, prior to November 22--did you -hear about her in between? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Not at all? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were assisting them with their child and went to -their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think it was in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. JENNER. In Oak Cliff? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think was in Oak Cliff. - -Mr. JENNER. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald -and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there -any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of -his views with respect to Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just only about the hospitalization. - -Mr. JENNER. Only the hospitalization? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with -Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether -he had been in Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew that before--well, I'll ask you this: How did you -know he had been to Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew from George Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. From George Bouhe? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he told me about it--uh--one person who went to -Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby--back to -United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing--that he learned -something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back. -He was just lucky that he did come back to United States." - -Mr. JENNER. He was fortunate that he could come back? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were -taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her -a good many hours? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh--let me see. It was maybe till 2 o'clock--2:30 maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting -Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their -lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls -have some smalltalk? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just about life in United States; not in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Not in Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -She told me that her husband want to go back to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. "And I don't want to go," she say. - -Mr. JENNER. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your -recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including -himself and her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he -was going to stay here? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he wanted to go with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't -go--because I like here and I don't go." - -Mr. JENNER. I see. But she did make a point of telling you about that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this -day when you were with them for a good many hours? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--with her. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says, -"United States, I do--but not everything" - -I said, "What you mean--not everything?" - -"Well, just the same problem--the hospitalization and the doctors." - -I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a -company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then -if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's how I explain to her. - -"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia--my baby was born in -Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there -was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby--and why is -it not in United States like this?" - -I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries--Russia and -United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will -understand." - -Mr. JENNER. And did you explain to her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I explained about this hospitalization what we have here. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have -to go doctor, you pay the visit." - -I said, "You can go to the hospital--to the Parkland Hospital and it -cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything." - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to -doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why, -that's nothing." - -"Well, I can't afford it." - -I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital--to Parkland -Hospital--to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything." - -That was the only--what she complained about. - -Mr. JENNER. But otherwise she thought well of the United States? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. She liked it. - -Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to stay; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, she did not want to go back to Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But she told you that her husband did want to return to -Russia? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember specifically now? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I remember. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to -go back with her? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want -to go, he can go by himself. I stay here." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time -you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United -States? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very -disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in -Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the -street. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. And that's why he was always so upset. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. - -Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would -like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you -think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important -investigation? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who -goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them -back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave -United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have -experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood, -I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason -that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life--I mean -the Communists. I can't see that. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a personal aversion to communism? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia -with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And not encourage him to return to the United States? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not encourage--or if he ask to come back, just let him -stay there. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. All right. - -Anything else? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let's see--Uh--one thing that I'm just always wonder -about Marina and her husband--that she knew--if she knew that her -husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in -that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her -husband tried to do this. - -Mr. JENNER. It's your viewpoint about---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. That she should have disclosed that? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. Husband or no husband, I would feel that I -should. - -Mr. JENNER. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a -husband, or whomever it might have been---- - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have -been disclosed to the police or the Government? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, you ask questions. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. I can't think of anything at the moment. - -Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter -hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the -course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in -questioning you that you think is pertinent here? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Everything that's pertinent I have questioned you about? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine -young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you -desire, or not--as you see fit. And some people like to read it over -and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's -optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do -this if you want. You also may waive it. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. - -Mr. JENNER. You would prefer to waive it? - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. What I say is truth. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, all right. - -Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's -certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful. - -Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR - -The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please? - -In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently--I guess it was -last week--a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the -Presidential Assassination Commission---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your -deposition? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's true. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there included with that letter a copy of the -Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November -29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and -directs that it prescribe its procedures---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No. -137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the -creation of the Commission? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was. - -Mr. JENNER. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint -resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating -all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the -assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances -surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it. - -We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and -from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds -and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and -that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might -be helpful. - -I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will -notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions -here in Dallas and conduct the examination. - -And you appear here voluntarily? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your full name is Gary--[spelling] G-a-r-y E. Taylor? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What's your middle name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Edward. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live in Fort Worth--is that correct, sir? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I live in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Dallas? And your address in Dallas? - -Mr. TAYLOR. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a married man? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Family? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How many children? - -Mr. TAYLOR. One. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your age? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Twenty-three. - -Mr. JENNER. You are an American citizen? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Born here? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your wife is an American citizen? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Born here? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your children born here? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area of the country? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since -1951. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring -you to Dallas? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I moved here with my parents. - -Mr. JENNER. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your -business or occupation or profession? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is the Sellers Co? - -Mr. TAYLOR. A recording company whose primary function is the recording -of radio and television commercials. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been in that business? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I went to work for them in September. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961. - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I -was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip -and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time -jobs and attended college at Arlington State. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a graduate of Arlington State? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3 -years at Arlington State? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you attending there at night--is that a night school? - -Mr. TAYLOR. They hold night classes. I'm not attending. - -Mr. JENNER. During the time you had your interest, which you still may -have, in--what did you say--photographing? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around -television commercials. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you an amateur camera fan? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either -Marina or Lee Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which of the two did you meet first? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same -day in their home. - -Mr. JENNER. On the same occasion? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information about them prior to the time -you met them? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or -was it a purposeful meeting? - -Mr. JENNER. It was prearranged. - -Mr. JENNER. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a -moment, if we can defer that for a bit. - -Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to -your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds -and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now -indicated? - -Mr. TAYLOR. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, how did it come about--from the beginning -of the world to the present? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--about a week before I met them, uh--my wife was told of -them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or -Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the -present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name--given name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic]. - -Mr. JENNER. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes--uh--it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it--Zhon. -I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm -not familiar with it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it. - -Mr. JENNER. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife--what was her -maiden name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne---- - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e? - -Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e. - -Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was the daughter of whom? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as -Mrs. J. M. Brandel. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name. - -Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l. - -Mr. JENNER. And the present Mrs. Brandel--she was the wife of George De -Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. No. I appreciate that. Where does she live now? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you spell that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a B. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the letter B? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in -Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy. - -Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she has remarried--and her name is Brandel. - -Mr. JENNER. How many children were born of that marriage? - -Mr. TAYLOR. One. - -Mr. JENNER. Just your wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second -wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The first wife--to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs. -Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also -was married to at least one, if not two other women? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, I am aware of one other one. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I know very little about her, other than that her name is -Dee--her first name is Dee. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] D-e-e? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee? - -Mr. TAYLOR. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of -which is deceased. - -Mr. JENNER. And the one who still survives is male or female? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Female. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know her name and whereabouts? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Her given name is Nodjia--and I do not know the spelling of -it. It is, I believe, a Russian name. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it phonetically? - -Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic). - -Mr. JENNER. Is she married? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. She's a minor. - -Mr. JENNER. She's still a minor? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe in Philadelphia--but I can't be sure of that. - -Mr. JENNER. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her -mother in Philadelphia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince, -Haiti? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt -and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in -Port-au-Prince, Haiti? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -(Off the record discussion follows.) - -Mr. JENNER. In order that the record be not too confused, I think -it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your -meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back -when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper -perspective. - -Mr. TAYLOR. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, -Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the -De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De -Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. We will bring that out later. - -(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by -referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting -how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.) - -Your REPORTER. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was -told of them by either her father or stepmother--Mr. and Mrs. George De -Mohrenschildt." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there. - -Mr. TAYLOR. They explained to us that---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean whom? - -Mr. TAYLOR. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. Explained to my wife---- - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth -with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts -were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert -and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De -Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go on. - -Mr. TAYLOR. We---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an -American being back here with a Russian wife--or was this entirely new -to you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of -either one of them prior to this. - -Mr. JENNER. And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the -record, the wife you now speak of--that is, back in 1962--that is not -your present wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. But that wife--what was her maiden name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one -Sunday afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "them," you mean---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and -also---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over -there? - -Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address -and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law -and mother-in-law present? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the -number? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a house--not an apartment? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a -duplex. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or -rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare -or new furniture--or what did it look like inside? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember, -uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however, -clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two -persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was. - -Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De -Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother -was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was -there--John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her -name--first name. - -Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Elena. - -Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the -time that you stepped into this room? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your -first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance -with Lee and Marina Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what -anybody said? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that -afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what -preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald---- - -Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a -question in your mind as distinct from something that was said---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish -a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left -shortly after I arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that -one afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this -particular occasion you are now relating? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media -activities subsequent to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in -those few minutes? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman -who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there -that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in -anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion -from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and -Marguerite? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them; -that they had very little communication between them; that they -were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other. -Particularly on Lee's part, I should think. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962--did you say? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented. -Go ahead. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things -that--uh--some of Lee's observations about Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or -I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke -Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John -Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts, -and George Bouhe does. - -Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts--your -mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian? - -Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough -to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was -spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words. - -Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others -who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any -attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and -pick up? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly -and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated -that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and -observations about Russia. Would you continue from that point, -indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's -experiences in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked -of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can -remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather -than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that -day. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll -probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. -But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to -make. - -Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed -the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his -general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his -observations of family life there. - -He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he -remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this -approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there -were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family -units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and -where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and -Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal -fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration -for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that -everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not. - -He went into some detail about what is received directly from the -State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen -receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine. -A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the -house--apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to -pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what -other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month -for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in -that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student -that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a -student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to -a level of which they are capable and then put to work. - -And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit -further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that -salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as -you continue through the years on a skilled job. - -Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job. - -Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for -example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles -a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, -he gets a raise over and above that. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of -time and has no relation to skill? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he -gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for -example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald, -is the compensation the same? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that -someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--I don't -remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200 -rubles a month for performing the same task. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the -ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a -month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American -money? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me -that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free -services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out -of his 45 rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food -and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare -minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual. - -Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his -impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed -little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these -things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of -these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in -some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of -stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the -families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this. - -Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective -in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room -apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average -Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or -speculating from things you have read in works published with respect -to life in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia -that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would -probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That -living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories -so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what -was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the -end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month -earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made -about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did -mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and -that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina -worked as well as he? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married -or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that -wives worked? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He -didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember -much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, I -should say, they are encouraged to work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on -his reaction toward this life in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that -he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that -they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, -to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or -say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this -privilege as we enjoy it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities -on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded -him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or -foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work -comparable to his? This is, was he treated or accorded benefits -different from or in addition to those which would normally have been -accorded him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians -put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was -less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know. - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt -like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming -sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to -do. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with -him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself -that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at -least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected, -as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he -were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and -that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of -course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him. - -Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what -he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an -impression on your part? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it a distinct impression or---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have -asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more -money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that -he---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached -the subject. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to -what he told you of his life in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his -part--that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for -example, going hunting? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever -discussed by him with you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up -to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed. - -Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him -discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States -and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties -and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to -this--return to this country with his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort -prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had -married Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject -discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and -himself? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your -presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you -with respect to the subject of his life in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your -presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in -Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your -presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any -desire on her part to come to the United States? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings -about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that -they were important to him. - -Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not -with you directly? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss -directly with you, their route back to the United States? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about -that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the -money to return. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your -presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished -now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area -of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political -philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or -government? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the -things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two -political governments--such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains -free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian -citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps -some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat -better than the average citizen lived. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed -in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian -Government? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your -presence, his political philosophy? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I -knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem -particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country -or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and -perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but, -as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday -afternoon? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job--which I -believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his -employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from -it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion -about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now -whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to -stay in my home. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we -invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said---- - -Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday -evening forward. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live -until he was able to find a job here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your -invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina -and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee -became established elsewhere? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then -atmosphere? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any -marital disharmony. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of -that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the -relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and -wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language -barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did -not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the -others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the -other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had -some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about -Russia and how people live there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that -meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in -their lives? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to -remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I -tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June, -returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed---- - -Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it. -And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall, -some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones -other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And -then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did -take residence at the Y.M.C.A.? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your -home, commencing that Sunday night? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of -course? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where? - -Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount. - -Mr. JENNER. In what town? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian, -your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty -with the language? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between -Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during -this week? - -Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period -was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were -able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate -sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company -to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of -the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their -being able to play with the children and the children play with each -other. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say -2 weeks? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks. - -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and -probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week -period? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday -meeting? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the -telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the -Y.M.C.A. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him -up. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front -of the building? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going -into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down. - -Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used -the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him -and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going -in and his coming down to meet me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would -continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment -late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your -home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there -had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that -call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that -call? - -Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife. - -(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now where were we? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about -people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that -there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And -George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he -could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at -some point during this period---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and -picked Marina up. - -Mr. JENNER. At your home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. At my home--and took her, I believe, to a dentist. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of -them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly -because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from -her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the -whole period Marina was gone--which, as I remember it, was the better -part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not -sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a -charity--went to a charity dental clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to -the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law? - -Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just -mother-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No--not to my recollection. I didn't take--uh--Marina -anyplace that I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of -Dentistry? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out -at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your -home--first, the month? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none -of it in the month of October 1962? - -Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I -personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was -first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are -talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that -Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going -from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was -a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came--she came to my home for a -period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from -your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have -dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could -talk to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either -for yourself or for Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call -to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable -that I would have. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do -so? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble -finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the -Y.M.C.A.? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I -made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated -at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks -about which we have not talked that arrested your attention? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into -Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing -that arrested my attention. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that. - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine -qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her -child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her -dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all -that she could about her new environment. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home--you -mean----? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her -desire to learn English. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead. - -Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions, -this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning -English--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and -say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did -appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared -for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later -took them away from her. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series -of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and -becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your -present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? -Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in -terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English -language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the English language -lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her? - -Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one -occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by -saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And -then, of course, he did take the lessons from her. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I -had knowledge of her being beaten by him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that. - -Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt---- - -Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first -apartment they had, on Elsbeth. - -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and -that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she -and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from -her, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her. - -Mr. JENNER. She said that to you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina -that said that. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of -their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina -left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November---- - -Mr. JENNER. Left the home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember -who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was -told that she had left him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with -respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering -this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that--again, -it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to -my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present -at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication -between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I -couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But, -certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and -woman married would want some time alone together. They could have--we -had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could -have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never -happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing -intimate or personal between them at these meetings. - -Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, -conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were -evidences of love and affection? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during -the 2-week period? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and -asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had -been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their -meetings, would call him and he would then come. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We -were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and I remember at -least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and -rode the bus back to town. - -Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or -at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the -streets? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or -three occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. With him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of -them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, -and I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to -teach a beginner how to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he -was unable to operate an automobile? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to -attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in -Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the -various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions -they did try to get me to do it, and I refused. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to -you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on -your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You never received anything? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from -anybody." - -Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the -expenditures that I made on their behalf. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was -there something that occurred in particular that brought about the -termination of that 2-week guest period? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile -accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. -Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least -semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself -food and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by -associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which -one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or -reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your -memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile -accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any -respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas -and at that time they were, as you understood, separated? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which. - -Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help -care for Mrs. Hall? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in -November--somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct? - -Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of -September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this -is all quite vague--I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got -him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up -Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had, -through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' -house paraphernalia, clothing and other things---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to -be more specific as to how this came about? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I -got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably -aware of. But I don't remember. - -And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of -January 1964. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those -agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the -YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where -Marina was living? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to -say this about it. - -That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret -Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and -between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to -remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my -memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, -it occurred to me that at one time--once--I went to--uh--and looked -for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and -tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't -remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh---- - -Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I -just remember some vague directions that---- - -Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962? - -Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15, -because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point -during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and -looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the -occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that---- - -Mr. JENNER. From whom? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that -came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't -remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening -looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I -don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just -of Lee. - -I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a -building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this -area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information -to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he---- - -Mr. JENNER. What location was that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address--but it seems to -me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the -Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z--I--E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I think -they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off -on; but the name I do remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building. - -Mr. JENNER. Brick? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds -occupy prior thereto? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than -the Elsbeth Street home, for example? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to -ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely -sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly -or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. -Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a -Sunday afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large -one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers -of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to -this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they -were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household -furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, -and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place -located from which you rented the trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently -again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And -we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service -station where I had rented a small covered trailer and---- - -Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered. - -Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with -Mr. Yelchek. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a -mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your -recollection? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not -University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. -This service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a -mile north of Texas Christian University. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon -investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one -evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place. - -Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied -you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first -talked to the FBI? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. -There is no question about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively -identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since -then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at -this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one -for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it -was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too -involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is? - -Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking. - -(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. -Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. 1606670. - -(Hands license back to witness.) - -Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's -license number on that occasion? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal -procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle -license. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? -Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year. - -Mr. JENNER. They change the number? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit -letters "E" and "Y"? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number. - -Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for -Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part. - -Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are -what--your prefixes? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all -of the "N" and "P". - -Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary." - -Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three -letters? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the -three that we have just been discussing. - -Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's -and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -You piled all this material in the covered trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The same day. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded -trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street -in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there? - -Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service -station where I had rented it in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you, -was it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who -paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say -specifically that Lee did it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the -trailer in the first instance? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether -upon its return, he paid for it or you did? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your -recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not -pay for it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household -furniture and whatnot into their apartment? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their -apartment that same afternoon or evening? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening -or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't---- - -Mr. JENNER. Back with you where? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer. - -I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to -Fort Worth--just approximately? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was -rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're -wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move--I am not, again, can't be specific -about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and -I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return -a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a -collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort -Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front -entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the -Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the -Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. -And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either -all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald -on his trip or life in Russia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? -It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing. - -(Witness peruses document page by page.) - -Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy -of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages -of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in -New Orleans, and what not? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking. - -Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. -That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't -happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which -is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined 8 by 11-1/2 sheets? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it -typed? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking -about---- - -Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed. - -Mr. JENNER. It was typed? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed--on white paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he -showed you. Now, would you please go on? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking -about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had -had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with -us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever -read it fully. I read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is -very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to -be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or -content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in -character, or do you have any impression about it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it -such a long time ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was he living? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth. - -Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I -assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably -the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were -unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost -immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half -blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned. - -And we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great -detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the -manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed -perhaps an hour or 2 hours. - -Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, -on this occasion? - -Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I -arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was -sitting at a table, I think, reading and---- - -Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper? - -Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books -from the library. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading? - -Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. -I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy -of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the -title or name of the book. - -Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he -had a copy of. - -Mr. JENNER. But they were political---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and -philosophy? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy. - -Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit -on this particular evening? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much -later---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant? - -Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if -that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by -this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked -someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was -the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where -they had moved. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about -a block away. And I went there. - -Mr. JENNER. What street was that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What town? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I -went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not. - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit. - -Marina was at home. She--her English had improved enough for her to get -across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I -don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending -night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas--which is our technical high -school and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small -balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I -thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's -toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and -I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the -afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in -Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early -evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it -was midafternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was -working at all. - -Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was -employed? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a -very, very vague recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, -as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at -all at Crozier Tech. - -I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words, -telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and -we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe. -And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I -would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 -minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was -in the night school? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school. - -Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or -that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening? - -Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I -don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the -time. She may have said he was at work or not at work. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she -said he was employed and working and had work at that time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but -it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to -visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last -time I saw Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that -time. I know that he wanted it very badly. - -Mr. JENNER. He called you for it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, -I think I got in the car and took it to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you -now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your -impressions of the Oswalds individually. - -(Off-the-record discussion followed.) - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was, -first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be -well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I -don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject. - -In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had -said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a -statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas -as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties -have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and -communism have. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was -very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of -the subject, why, Lee was through. - -He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but -when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very -good case for it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would -get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly -emotional subject on everyone's part. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would -think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick -a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I -never felt like that he would attack anything his equal. - -Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, I -wouldn't ever have expected this of him. - -Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size. - -Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not -have expected him to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there -was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had -any black and blue marks on her person? - -Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or -their policies? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at -that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor. - -I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take -exception to Government policies--definitely---- - -Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that -might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention -Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him -any money or give him any money? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their -behalf? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to -Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county. - -Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you -either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help -in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, -his personal habits in that respect? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn -several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his -last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and -Marina? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her -treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about -it. It just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I -are dressed now--in a business coat? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would -be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee -Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because -there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I -saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons -in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been -closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been -so active in seeing that they got along well. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De -Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. -It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to -Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee--such as where to -look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee -grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or -where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA. - -Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De -Mohrenschildts. - -(Looking through papers.) - -Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your -relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of -course, all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in -Russia and I believe he went to the---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a -long period of time? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family. -He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von -Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm -not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the -University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their -Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York -City. - -Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please. - -Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs. -Brandel--in New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born. - -Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather -quickly after she was born. - -And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my -knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part -of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently -well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, I believe, -he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in -the business community. - -And then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that -until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he then married? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt -but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, -Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she -felt like at the moment. And I met them through her. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which---- - -Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a -half-sister of my wife's. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved. - -Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead. - -Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we -dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started -attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more -until--uh--May or June of 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a -Nancy Tilton? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is she? - -Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date -and she said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she -termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her -to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went -out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I -started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during -this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in -fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole -family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you -like the otherwise? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, -as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my -former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed -away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and -Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and -sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody. - -When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. -Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go -into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter -went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana? - -Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex. - -Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to -Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I -met her. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence -until I met her that evening, as previously described. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In China. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's -all my former wife knew of her. - -She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, -was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through -her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with -her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is -B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling]. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have -[referring to paper]. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was -just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China. - -All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. -And, as far as Mr. Bogo--as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was -in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems -and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he -was resident of a State mental hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar -[spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to -me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice -president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft. - -I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is -a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character -to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he -seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he -must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht -that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a -period of 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What's his name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original -name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league -university--Cambridge, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? -What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell? - -Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the -telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him -briefly on the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, -describe him. What kind of personality is he? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat -boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme -friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, -handsome, or otherwise? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a -very powerfully built man, like a boxer. - -Mr. JENNER. Athletic? - -Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes -him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is -a member of the staff. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would -contact me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of -George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go -home. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And -he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to -get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing -this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. -The furnishings in their home somewhat show this. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things -like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52--is a -little unusual. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street? - -Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel. - -He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to -his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position -for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he -could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this -could be in 32 deg. weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only. - -Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned -convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with -the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the -respects you have indicated in regards to him? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar. - -Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does -she? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's--uh--I have heard them say -everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed -democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia -and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again, -so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their -designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see--on November 21, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Your present wife? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter -that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the -De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the -assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all -from them. My parents have received correspondence from them--none of -which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was -mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De -Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your -acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the -record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add -that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence -having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the -Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and -I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or -plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably -the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all, -to--uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have -traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to -Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, -Tex., to the tip of South America---- - -Mr. JENNER. Panama? - -Mr. TAYLOR. And---- - -Mr. JENNER. On beyond that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of -South America. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further -information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the -portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to -invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area -while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these -observations---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that -invasion preparation? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the -invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they -were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in -the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to -anyone--and when these acquaintances returned---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their -daughter? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from -them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after -they returned? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them -being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, -Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. -This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the -people---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home---- - -Mr. JENNER. Where is that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends -of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in -their home---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully -evicted them from it. - -Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De -Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a -friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people -who owned the house? - -Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who -owned it returned. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had -advance permission to occupy that home? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had -occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who -evicted them could determine from what was eaten and---- - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, they were trespassing? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. - -(Off the record discussion follows.) - -Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De -Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement -by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are -stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down -through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of -the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And -it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De -Mohrenschildts' daughter? - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. -What was that? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an -indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or -information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They -had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they -had traveled extensively through Communist countries. - -Mr. JENNER. What countries? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and -Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had -met Marshal Tito. - -Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period -that you were married to their daughter? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. -However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the -family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live--if -you know? - -Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she married? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name? - -Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson. - -Mr. JENNER. What business is he in? - -Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside--if you know? - -Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since -they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said -that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other -than that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have -already said that you would like to add to the record that you think -might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further -investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is -there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the -record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is -pertinent, that I have failed to bring out? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record -statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said -on the record? - -Mr. TAYLOR. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition -if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate -with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and -read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make -any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire -and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the -right to waive that if you see fit. - -Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long -deposition--about Wednesday of next week. - -Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much -longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for -coming here despite the inconvenience. - -Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV - -The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you -are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing -voluntarily at our request? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if -you wish counsel? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your -transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters -charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you -wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to -waive the signing of your deposition. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would -like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of -a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If -you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right. - -Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning -probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would -that be convenient for you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, -then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your -testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know -if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me. - -Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go -ahead and spell it for us now. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not -"en" as you have it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name. - -Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic -spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and -the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway -Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you -because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work -with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that -connection? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the -Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to -the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full -address. What is your business, profession, or occupation? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as -seismologist. - -Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of -1955, when I took my present job. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or -with whom were you associated, prior thereto? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co. - -Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. In what capacity? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, -you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your -profession or your particular calling? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced -person and I didn't speak English enough. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster -than I thought. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my -life--approximately at that time? - -Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native -of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my -parents came to Latvia. - -Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received -my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, -we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to -South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, -P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, -excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp. - -Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g -[spelling], Germany. - -Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you marry? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938. - -Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and -we haven't heard of him since that time. - -Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a -distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something -different from the Russians? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, -Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are -in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an -occupational force--I'll put it this way. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital -of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is -approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between -master's and Ph. D. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time -and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1955? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November -of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex. - -Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located -here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.; -Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, -N. Mex., and I left---- - -Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a -month. - -Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, -Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, -Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company -at that time and went to Roswell to join the family. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went -quite a way. - -Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological -computer for that particular company. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our -law didn't exist at that time, as well you know. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and -this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff -of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, -and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by -the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint -resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. -Mamantov. - -I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on -Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You -are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the -taking of your deposition. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had. - -Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, -and do you agree to waive it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal -terms. - -Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there. -No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from -Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I -quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. With Sun? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in -October, the 1st of October 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian -language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any -teaching of the language? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. -I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in -1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was -the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No--1962 and 1963. Now, -I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite -extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for -any law enforcement agencies? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have -translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage -certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with -divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here -in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the -first time for the police department. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called -upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or -of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or -translating? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of -Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. What year? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice. - -Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior -notice? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police -department? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's -Lieutenant--they call him Chief. - -Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of -minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, -C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right -now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two. - -Mr. JENNER. And who is he? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not -mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. -And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and -then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum. - -Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with -this tragedy? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did -you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before -the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I -heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I -felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly -well his background here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say---- - -Mr. JENNER. 4:30? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30. - -Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. -Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car. - -Mr. JENNER. To pick you up? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was -sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird. - -Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane. - -Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City -Police Station? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz. - -Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the -detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the -hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people. - -Mr. JENNER. You just went through that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that -I saw. - -Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine, -whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous -telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, -your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943--we never -were separated. - -Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a -young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that -moment? Knowingly? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally. - -Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no -contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone -conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. -Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I -never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into -another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought -in and she also had a baby. - -Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, -there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for -whom I interpreted. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him. - -Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who -was taking notes and sitting across at the desk. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this -young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started -with "H". - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he -will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together. - -Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of -recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and -relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at -least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the -responses--the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this -because--I mean--this was pure translation. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't -you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try -to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's -residence in Irving---- - -Mr. JENNER. To which she responded? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is -what I was getting at? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but -I'll have to, I'm sure, at times. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember -approximately what she was asked. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine -around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's -home. She answered positively then. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--I'm sure that positively is affirmative? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what -time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police -station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 -o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in -Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November. - -Mr. JENNER. The previous evening? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he -had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into -kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually -she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said -usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was -tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, -so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to -eat breakfast. Now---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything -about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to -make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I -don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he -didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this--I don't want any -of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall -definitely. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we -would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the -subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned -from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or -are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no -recollection, I would prefer you say so. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations -somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember -also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; -apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, -which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was -after he left, we'll say, a few minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your -answers--do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she -stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning. - -Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that -morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little -bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen -she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. -From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him -and she ate. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that -she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then -rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you -recall that she said that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem--either I recall or I -recall future instances from translating her life history. - -Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to -exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate--and to -exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your -mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your -powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your -rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do -you understand? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't -return backward--I mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the -time he was leaving. After a while she got up. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning -it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the -translating you---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left -the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to -the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for -the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought -he didn't eat. - -Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember -how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check -her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, -and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit -different position than she remember it before. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the -blanket? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was -asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention -particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. -Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it -looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but -she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this -moment the gun was brought in. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to -the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she -had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I -assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went -to the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that -time? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after -Marina finished. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, -and did she respond on that subject? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that -question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection -with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the -day. Do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning, -or she voluntarily stated---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the -kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for -the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and -think about it. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she -went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when -police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very -important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the -exact time. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you -first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the -kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went -during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do -not know. - -Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before -noontime? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state. - -Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the -police arrived, which was in midafternoon? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked -about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a -very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen -before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the -questioning. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the -blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and -configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?" - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. -After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it -was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he -get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would -bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if -she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at -this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit? - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or -not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in -the garage prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit -evasive answer. - -Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your -opinion as to whether it was evasive. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it -were there. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not know---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however, -she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that -Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and -you translated it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the -blanket in the garage? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the -blanket in the garage prior to November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she -had discovered it prior to November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark -brown--black, she said. - -Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought -in the room? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was -actually brought into the room, and state what she said. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the -gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, -she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked -her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it -was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," -and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, -and at that time the gun was brought in. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go -back. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or -discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of -November 22, to examine the blanket? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon -or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and -this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it. - -Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, -what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position -as she has seen in the past. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in -the garage? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't -anything in it. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This -I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had -seen before, so much I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, -shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from -what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had -seen it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a -package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the -package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, -what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it -looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package -of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and -knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch -his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she -left it in same shape she had found it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of -the package? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back -so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the -package. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the -garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it -before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage -when she saw it on November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her -belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I -remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that -particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different -shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in -the garage in one of the corners. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the -gun. - -Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or -condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of -placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when -she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain -what she discovered was a rifle? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket -package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping -of that character? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package -brought into the room? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into -the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was -with her when she did that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure--I don't know what happened before that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day -at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of -Mrs. Paine and the police? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to -the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the -police were present? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that -is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of -the police? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the -garage on two occasions that day. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, -as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I -know. If you don't remember, you don't. - -Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you -don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your -mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for -you to testify one way or the other. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best -you can, your recollection of what took place. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude -by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she -testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the -garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior -to the time the police arrived. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to -testify one way or the other on that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the -fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package--she saw -an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the -size of the package she testified it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that -she had seen the gun in sections? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Today? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the -record.) - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, -and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and -she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there--so much--you -asked me. - -Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will -be certain of it and see if we can find it. - -(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred -to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following: - -("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the -line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up -she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was -poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, -and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a -few minutes.") - -Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the -garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, -what did she say? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the -point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or -she saw during the time when police arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own -prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way -it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have -testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the -package, if she said anything? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific -questions about particular blanket. - -Mr. JENNER. What questions? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation -to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape." - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat -whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, -had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for -example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was -aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of -the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was -the sequence, as you recall? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the -premises of Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is -that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at -the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she -said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this -particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't -think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular -morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun -was with her belongings. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not -brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to -her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was -not brought into the room? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, -was the gun itself, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what -I mean by a sling? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right -now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure--I wouldn't be sure of -the statement. - -Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated -when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it -was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was her response? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun -which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other -if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a -gun in the Soviet Union--I can say so much for sure and that's where I -didn't like this. - -Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no -person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your -part, not what she said. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not -to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she -went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet -Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Might have been? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question -was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she -said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns -even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was -this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she -was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled -the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are -dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you -some more questions. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself--all right. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied -that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that -he had the gun that she had in mind? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun? - -Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, -he always was interested in guns--this statement she made. - -Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a -rifle? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a -reply. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on -that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination -of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically -as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I -went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the -blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, -or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"--was she questioned that closely? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether -there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon -in the blanket package? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she -was not examined on that subject? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether -she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon -she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was -asked. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or -information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it -was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was -in Russia? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in -Russia and supposedly was hunting here. - -Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in -the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for -hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used -to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No. - -Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June -1962. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and -reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in -Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had -hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen -him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally -or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their -home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, -sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry -sighting is? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an -incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, -she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the -translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry -sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle--I'll put it this -way--about her seeing him with a weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. Any weapon? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall -about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle -was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned -about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said -on this occasion is relevant to us. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I -remember--I think I said everything I could remember. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything -that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of -each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when -the gun was brought into the room? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down. - -Mr. JENNER. Made notes? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination -he summarized his notes in her presence? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't -write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs. -Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I -probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman -to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or -"me"--that's the mistake it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the -presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance -correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to -Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you -thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian -and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark -about the grammar. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled. - -Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his -two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that -position (indicating). - -Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position. - -Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to -examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in -the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are -the same, are a dark brown or black." - -He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. -He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the -gun--I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then -they asked her about a sight on the gun. - -Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope--she said, "No; I never have seen gun -like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet -Union. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part -that she referred back to the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way. - -Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, -so you can go ahead. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, -she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing." - -Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever -it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have -a telescopic sight on it? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part -of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said -again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was -the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling -it---- - -Mr. JENNER. The stock? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked -about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black." - -Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her -for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his -possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she -couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the -past. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they -questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it -weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she -had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how -close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that -the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all -she thought, to fairly summarize? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color -you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They -particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun -which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the -gun and hasn't seen the whole gun. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and -asked her if she has seen him carrying something. - -Mr. JENNER. Carrying something? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see -him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left -that morning he was carrying anything? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And her response was? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, -or whatever he was taking--means of transportation. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he -had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to -Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if -anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday -night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they -go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point -to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that -previous evening? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the -extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and -what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having -the gun, and "this is the gun he used." - -Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no -questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous -evening? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather -than on Friday as usual? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they go into any questions with respect to the -acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or -in Fort Worth or in New Orleans? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place? -What was its duration? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. You -see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two -statements--from both of them. - -Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements -made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, -as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of -Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and -Mrs. Paine's responses? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether -Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2-1/2 or 3 hours -altogether for the typist to type that. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the -statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and -then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then -sign them. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were -present? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to -Marina--yes, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, -were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have -testified? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal -conversation more or less about the child who was present. - -Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, -were they conversations related to personal matters--the children? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to -her protection--Marina's protection. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?" - -Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?" - -Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?" - -Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back -to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she -looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, -then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I -didn't want to go into conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you -are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be -deported in that event? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would -happen to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the -best of your recollection that was said? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them? - -Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that -3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but -without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything -asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether -they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any -problems in that connection? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you -teach Russian? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. -Paine's command of the Russian language? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person -and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for -knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or -translated for Marina? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this -questioning? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my -mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this some time afterward? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward. - -Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no--the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the -picture. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened -the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody -else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and -started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like -in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very -little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I -heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around -and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young -men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so -surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. -Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me -in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself -immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her -at the police station and my name is so and so. - -In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for -me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I -said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am -very tired." - -That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement -of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going -up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me -somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into -the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group -again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the -escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out -was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told -him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please -call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you -through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything -about this particular occasion. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also -present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a -gun. - -Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this, -please? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that -Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," -and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I -didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check -on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is -a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania? - -Mr. JENNER. Quaker. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that -you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me -to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's -part. - -Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the -previous evening; is that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this. - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember--this is overlapping two -occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the -statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the -name of George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his -physical characteristics first? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud -in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes. - -Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Very. - -Mr. JENNER. Expansive type? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I -met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, -twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce -was pending. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that -general area, who is now his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was her name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to -spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was -the way she was called in the Russian society. - -Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know -George. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it -this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born. - -Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in -Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet -again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, -all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him -and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very -small--actually was just a regular residence. - -Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you -participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would -be interested? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church. - -Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm -talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If -I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward -the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to -describe a man this way---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to -ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person -wouldn't do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your -acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to -the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting -at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, -as you have described? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no, no; I haven't. - -Mr. JENNER. Or known of him? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this -was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was -in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long -because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid -this person as much as possible. - -Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of -George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I -thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De -Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my -mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the -De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that -Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that -remark was made to you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation -between my mother-in-law and Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present. - -Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your -presence? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. -Mother-in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears -store, except that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact -between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your -mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with -Marina? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take -your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I -don't want to take your time. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little -carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with -your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was -because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and -asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant -at that time--you see the connection? - -Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the -way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my -mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my -mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her -because she needs a translator. - -Mr. JENNER. You may bring her. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows -we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for -her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to -answer your questions. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as -far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite -nervous by being by herself and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which -I have tried to do with you. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, -because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't -remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated -with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to -separate right now without going back and reading the report. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De -Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with -respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to -a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, -Mexico? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. -Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will -leave it to them. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to -us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet -representatives and Mikoyan---- - -Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, -actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this -mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but -this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend -beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to -organize the Eastern Orthodox Church? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but -I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active -participants in organizing the church. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this -group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about -which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We -came in 1955--this already was going for a couple of years. - -Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons -interested? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe---- - -Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for -the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.--oh, -gosh, what is her name--Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her -first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in -the telephone book later on. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian -intellectuals? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level -than I do, except De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are -interested in what? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low---- - -Mr. JENNER. As yours? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called -miners, and the Voshinins are the same. - -Mr. JENNER. Who else? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's -called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, -Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them -were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's -case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e -[spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now, -an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s -[spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it -exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the -telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing. - -Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship -is between her and Mr. Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and -Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people -actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial -supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money -because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, -but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and -through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the -first time. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please -state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, -in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as -chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony -is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and -evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we -were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, -his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political -trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can -say of him. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you -called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the -Dallas office? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the -assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the -knowledge I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, -Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion -as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political -leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I -don't want to suggest the conversation to you. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what? - -Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what -his political leanings were in her opinion? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, -after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. -Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to -our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I -stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate. - -Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your -mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and -from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone -from this country to Russia? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because -after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow -acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different -sources of him and his political opinions. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because -there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in -each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that -they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand -her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them -comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your -heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me -your reaction to that. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was -approached by them or people who tried to help them. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help -them? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many -occasions they shouldn't do it. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested -person. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was -sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he -had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is -strengthened due to the 22d assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on -any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any -direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, -you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a -realization---- - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of -his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and -supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in -my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and -I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were -asked before. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and -that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that -respect? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, -I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local -Republican Party. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of -or has there come to your attention any information or statement -attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or -opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, -prior to November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his -capacity as President of the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he -was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning -the President or any other name. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can -rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or -early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I -heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be -a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to -my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405, -if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out -in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we -went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White -Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller. - -Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came -from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee -Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to -his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his -political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring, -avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to -violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, -are you acquainted with his reputation in the community? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help -Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I -mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into -political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, -was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, -did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one -reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way. - -Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, -in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think -well of his personality? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try -to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep -Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her -in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back. - -Mr. JENNER. He was holding back? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation -in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but -only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group -toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not -reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is -what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for -a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many -instances. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance. - -Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after -people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own -houses, he was undesirable to those people. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your -mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what -happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to -teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, -and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for -my mother-in-law to teach her Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian -community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several -subdivisions--first, as to her personality. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, -was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion -was that she is very pleasant to be around. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian -community for truth and veracity? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom? - -Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a -reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean. - -Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family -discussion. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, -but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union -so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him -living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean -distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable -apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her -on the first-hand information. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with -respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, -that is a political question. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second---- - -Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the -Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United -States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union? - -Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist -Party of the Soviet Union first. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic -Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard -of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist -Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody -considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did -Oswald himself. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the -Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political -views and might actively support those views here in the United States? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion. -I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political -discussions, I'll put it this way. - -Mr. JENNER. She did? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the -Fords? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was -married--he's divorced. - -Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be -married. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they -were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the -Oswalds? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable -impulse on his part? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We -objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying -to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her -husband beat her up. - -Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report -that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the -community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her, -after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. -Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in -Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting -money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this -more and more violently. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of -which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on -occasions? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for -a couple of weeks or a week. - -Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get -this person---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had -a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her -home. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't -think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or -for 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it? - -Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling]. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, -H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person. - -Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's -correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call -your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your -father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it -appears. - -Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's -name are the same? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, -it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce. - -Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his first name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil -Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the -class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen -was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class. - -Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a young man? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian -in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. -He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied -Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of -the Russian language already. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this -student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't -that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished -that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of -1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he -and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private -lessons for both of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not -before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and -Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both -of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described -as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he -didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and -I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, -and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and -willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring -Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt. - -Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to -you about the Oswalds one night? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit -with us. - -Mr. JENNER. Your home? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say, -sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday -or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party -where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his -wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was -present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were -present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was -present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the -conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my -mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and -I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. -You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those -houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. -Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and -we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't -speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and -didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with -Oswald on political questions, because he understood. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, -you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, -she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the -American occupation of Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't -his original name. - -Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, -spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's -originally his name. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here -in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for -quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been -with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few -occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in -the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we -didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you -that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might -be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of -President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the -assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please -state what you have in mind? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union -so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but -knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her -arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet -Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of -my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to -get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be -old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and -here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out -and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I -know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out -of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my -mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's -everything. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had -a short talk with you before we began this deposition. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our -off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, -that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record -discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is -inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any -time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to -influence you in any statements you might have made? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and -in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the -moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that -while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, -I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your -deposition. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov -at this point. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS - -The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April -6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter. - - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise -your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly -swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and -Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Today? - -Mr. BELIN. Now. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873). - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Latvia. - -Mr. BELIN. May I ask approximately how old you are? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Seventy-four years old. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to -America? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I -was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia. - -I was educated in Russia, in Moscow. - -I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian -territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of -the city where I was teaching in Latvia. - -Mr. BELIN. Latvia became independent in 1918? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three -Baltic countries around 1939, or so? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1940. In 1913, I got married. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Do you need a very detailed story on her life? - -Mr. BELIN. No. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils, -and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd -at that time. This was in 1915. - -Mr. BELIN. Now it is Leningrad? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Leningrad. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia -from that time on until after--for how long? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my -daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't -let him out. - -Mr. BELIN. From 1919 onward, where did you live? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a -teacher in Latvia. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you teach? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to -junior high, and the Russian language. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you work for the State or for a private school? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. State school. - -Mr. BELIN. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the -Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know the city? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian -border. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. All the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Until when? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a -teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as -a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in -Riga, which is the Latvian Capital. - -Mr. BELIN. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to -Latvia with you? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't -go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923. - -Mr. BELIN. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia -then, and what happened to him? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station -manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And -we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what ever became of him? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my -sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1944, I went to Germany. - -Mr. BELIN. You went with your daughter and son-in-law? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; and two children. - -Mr. BELIN. And your two children? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Your two grandchildren? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you stay in Germany? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Bavaria. - -Mr. BELIN. In a camp? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and -so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences -until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Four years in--until October of 1949, when we went to -Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started -with "G". - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go in the United States when you got here? -Where have you lived since you have come here? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York City. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived -since then? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 1-1/2 or 2. However, we left New York -February 28, 1952. - -Mr. BELIN. And you came to---- - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post. - -Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small -towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield. - -Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with -your daughter and son-in-law? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume -then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have -lived in Texas? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other -than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession. - -Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr. -Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating -the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the -sidewalks. - -I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was -born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual -students. - -Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to -Texas, is private tutoring? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring -on and off, because it is not enough students. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs. -Michael Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I -was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't -remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian -instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons -cost? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid? - -Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but -I heard somewhere from $5 to $6. - -Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50. - -Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration. - -Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour. - -Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or -would this be several people in the class? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had -two, then I received $3. - -Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was -taking lessons before I came to that school. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School. -This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and -Mrs. Paine dropped out of school. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office -and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law -would teach her at home. - -Mr. BELIN. At whose home? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per -hour, private lesson. - -Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the -Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious. - -Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers, -that you know of, in Russia? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me? - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in -Russia? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs. -Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher -was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes. -Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of -the city. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian -teacher? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through -a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question -her any more. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the -grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean? - -Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher, -or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political -discussion involved? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs. -Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February, -and then she discontinued taking lessons. - -Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years -old, so we say 1961. - -Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960. - -Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more -Russian language lessons? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit -taking lessons? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs. -Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, -that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and -his wife is a Russian. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the -phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, -and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the -English language and nobody could help her. - -Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that -time. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald, -her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina -Oswald? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two. - -Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was -said? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a -severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the -Paine's home. - -Mr. BELIN. This would have been when? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This -was this past summer, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from -and where she lived before she came to this country? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in -Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in -Leningrad, on Ligovka Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk, -and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She -lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived -on this street in Leningrad. - -Mr. BELIN. After she was married? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got -married? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again? - -Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then -together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad -on this street, Ligovka Street. - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers -this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor -part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow -brought mother's memory back to Petrograd. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she -was married, or what her husband did? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a -pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and -mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of -Russia. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came -with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you -out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck." - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United -States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason -she lives at Mrs. Paine's home. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to -get out of Russia other than that she had luck? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I -didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who -is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got -out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and -couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the -United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you -mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any -kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of -work is below his dignity. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by -the word Communist? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just -what she would call it. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a -person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in -this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said, -"Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in -their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the -characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes." - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly -how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I -think in your investigation it is very important. - -She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the -individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word, -which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who -believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement. -Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to -insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of -this word. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and -it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist -ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist -Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist -Party. - -And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I -translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So -it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth -Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this -third step is eventually for this particular work. - -Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to -become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't -talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of -the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for -the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because -this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They -are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic -people. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to -the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which -I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal -experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this, -who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the -Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I -was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the -Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the -screening process that gets memberships, is that correct? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the -members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become, -they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the -individual deed. - -Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it -is now? - -Mr. BELIN. Both. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which -is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are -approximately 5 or more million people members. - -Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there -are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or -members of the communistic youth organization. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get -education. You cannot advance in your educational system. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from -the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this -was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you -to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them -as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to -work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free -education or scholarship. - -Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this -affect whether or not you get out of the country? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in -Dallas, Tex.? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans -here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to -meet with the Russians any more. - -Mr. BELIN. Why not? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel -that because she got tired of being questioned all the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work -here? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However, -mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a -small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and -they didn't have an automobile. - -Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. -And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he -went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or -had done in Russia and where he had gone? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so -much. I didn't ask her any more questions. - -Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald -have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she -volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people -locally would have. - -Mr. BELIN. Why was this? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was -it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a -member of the Communist Party? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee -Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion, -if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to -have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia. - -Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go -hunting? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting -clubs over there. - -Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are -professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. -Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm. - -Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to -a hunting club? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to -discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better -because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were -better? In what way would they be better than the average person there? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better -area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives, -that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United -States? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she -was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our -President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was -unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom. - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States? - -Mr. BELIN. Here in the States. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she -did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her -daughter. - -Mr. BELIN. And what church? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox. - -Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you -had with her that she said about her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is -below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very -much. That is my personal interpretation. - -Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina -Oswald said about her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with -Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times. - -Mr. BELIN. Two more? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total. - -Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. When was the second one? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember -exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio. - -Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina -Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina -Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine -about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a -photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New -Orleans. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet -Marina Oswald or her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I -mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring -Marina to our house. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband. - -Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was -in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I -am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some -information on us and notifying their own people. - -Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey -Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage -trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about -whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be -trying to spy, or what have you? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I said to---- - -Mr. BELIN. To Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be -more careful. - -Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine say to that? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American -woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and -very generous. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the -Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course. - -Mr. BELIN. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been -asked to come here? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered, -if you interpret it that way. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey -Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean personal opinion? - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald--I did not know her -last name, she always called her Marina and Lee--so Mrs. Paine told -me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why. -She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't -have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back -to the Soviet Union." I said that this isn't true. I was surprised, -and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person -doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in -the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true, -that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her -personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere. - -She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and -bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she -is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help, -had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, -and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very -surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American -didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to -people who don't have money. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more -to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should -be noted here, that we should discuss? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Maybe, but I don't remember right now. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he -even hit her, Marina. - -Mr. BELIN. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She -said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write -her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would -reprimand his wife." - -Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been -different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, -or was this something different that happened when they came to New -Orleans? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Marina did not tell me. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that -might be helpful here? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this -year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had -intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that -she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina -knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew -that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs. -Paine. - -Mr. BELIN. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip -somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else. - -Mr. BELIN. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon -which to base it? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; this is my personal feeling. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I would help you more, but I don't have enough -acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I -know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine -or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so -Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her -husband came home after the President was assassinated. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did he come home, do you know? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And -she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it -easier on her after that particular time. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant? - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, -Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help. - -Mrs. GRAVITIS. Thank you; Mr. Belin. - -Mr. BELIN. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the -deposition and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down -and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and -let it go directly to Washington? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. She trusts you without signing. - -Mr. BELIN. So you waive the signing? - -Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY - -The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March -31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GREGORY. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley -J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have -been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the -week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. -I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the -Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of -Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge -of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained -as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of -Oklahoma; isn't that right? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma? - -Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University? - -Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University? - -Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's? - -Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live? - -Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is -that not correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do -you know? - -Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of -the exact year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is -that correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been -February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right -around my birthday, which is February the 10th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born? - -Mr. GREGORY. 1941. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the -telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared -before the Commission in Washington. - -Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I -guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave -before the Commission? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the -only thing he said about the testimony. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and -his wife, Marina? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of -that event? - -Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would -suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house -in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted -with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with -the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian -language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; -some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to -use Russian. - -I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because -I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was -staying at the time. - -And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and -I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard. -So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a -visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle -of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald -or Marina Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962, -your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house? - -Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned? - -Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been -at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our -house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first -time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this -dinner which you mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner? - -Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the -summer, I imagine, in August, 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his -brother's place in Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting? - -Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's -wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee, -and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the -conversation was at that time? - -Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken -in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I -believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And -then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how -they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to -know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all -the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about -the Oswalds' life in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of -discussion about it, but not this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the -Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate -number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you -saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you -met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that -you saw them? - -Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and -right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited -in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good -idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite -a big help. - -Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June, -a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went -over to their house, my father and I. - -We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten -minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from -Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I -think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember -the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from, -say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the -middle of September. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father -gave for the Oswalds? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner? - -Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller, -her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr. -Clark. I can't give you their first names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a -possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly. - -Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were -there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe -my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's -husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't -there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more, -if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after -Thanksgiving of 1962. - -Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she -and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or -something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the -visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode -the bus over from Dallas. - -They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and -brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them -down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went -and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee -or Marina Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around -$35 or $40, something like that. - -This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember, -$35, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that -correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Marina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the -Oswalds any money? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money? - -Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them -gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he -gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any -bills while in your presence? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would -go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping -and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get -groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But -the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much -they spent on food? - -Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little -they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat. -He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and -he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he -would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought -very little though. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any -money or pay any bills; is that correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be, -"Yes; I did not see them"? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or -discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about -them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for -June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds -together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would -you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or -Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald -went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why -he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on? - -Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I -never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him. - -At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it, -he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American -system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and -the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I -ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left. - -Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was -very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I -don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and -going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the -Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was -sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or -something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and -the second one would be one which I am not sure of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have -indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from -the Marines? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told -me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, -from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers -that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information -which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a -discharge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that -you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you -that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and -you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from -Arlington? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet -Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to -him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember -asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always -read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter -because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to -buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and -phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran -some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he -had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into -another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of -Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and -they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And -then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place -in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup -and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had -to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it -around to face Lenin's new position. - -He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in -the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist -Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as -opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out -of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist -Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and -therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought -it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party -were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise -and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a -disgust for the members of the Communist Party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my -impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which -the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true -Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, -in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my -part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that -he worked and what he did? - -Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember -his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough -to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand -in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes -and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how -poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet -Union, that he didn't eat very well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet -citizens, or---- - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received -more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held -similar jobs? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly -received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the -Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of -favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing -shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived -in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, -because he had no place to go. - -If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get -a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in -the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, -and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the -apartment. - -Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said, -"Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite -a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I -am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She -said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know -who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, -because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later -somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is," -and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone. - -I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was -some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another -fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to -correspond with these people over there. - -He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was -getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one -was the son of a highly fairly influential person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him -being a general's son or a colonel's son. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one -letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal -letter. Maybe I would. - -Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name? - -Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel, -I am fairly sure of the Pavel part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct. - -Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one -you just mentioned? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining -something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where -it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me -something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal -matters. I can't even remember the contents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at -this point? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, -that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly -he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has -been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet -Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be -given when he got there. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and -I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was -interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were -quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, -fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to -go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application -for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign -students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not -accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over -there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him -somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like -this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to -Russia was to enter college or university there? - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but -that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make -this application. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application -to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you -in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had -received by Russian authorities? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was -touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he -felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about -meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina -worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to -leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where -they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement -for the fact that they did allow her to return with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he -said about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings? - -Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to -why they did let Marina come back. - -Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident -where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow -it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her -go. It was more or less an accident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had -been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or -something that he couldn't readily explain? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted -Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of -reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the -subject of Marina being able to come back with him? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with -all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for -her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous -difficulties as a result of this? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that -Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was -put upon her by her friends? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, -that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done -in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned -as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which -was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And -I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee -would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the -mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to -speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him -an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, -because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't -remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the -Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American. -It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends -that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not. - -When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations -was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they -took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back, -and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get -quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the -Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the -street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's -name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this -to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks. - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he -looked at things critically over there. - -He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is -right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he -saw over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now -your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and -perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it -out? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was -just complaining about things, do you? - -Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point -was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone -who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not -that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He -seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot -read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was -a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very -brilliant man and very able leader. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said -about him, Mr. Khrushchev? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that -was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he -would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind, -and he expressed admiration of Kennedy. - -Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say -anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because -I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their -living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy -or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as -admiration for Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his -remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him -concerning Kennedy? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their -apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said, -"He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a -good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about -Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any -adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the -presence of anyone else? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made -any remarks about Governor Connally? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she -too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President -Kennedy? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably -indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English -or understand English? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be -true. I couldn't answer the question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak -English during the time you knew her? - -Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert -Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would -go sit in the corner while everyone else ate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what? - -Mr. GREGORY. Ate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the -corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in -time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What -have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't -learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had -used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to -study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if -she used them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the -extent to which she could understand English? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with -me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you -do," something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian? - -Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong -accent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a -judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly -spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than -I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to -in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of -grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get -peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say -like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct -him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why -Marina did not learn English? - -Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not -picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home -and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious -attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was -an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't -help her. - -I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would -send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct -them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these -lessons started after I had gone away to school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's -ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen -this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received? - -Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit -of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the -grammar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was -particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been -in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he -could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical -knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him -do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian. - -I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in -Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read? - -Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library -and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read -in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the -end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the -grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he -would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was, -but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he -always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book -about Lenin? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought -home from the library that you saw in his apartment? - -Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely -interesting. I can't give any titles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of -the study of history? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very -smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was -my opinion of him. - -He just said he always had this love of history, and he several -times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to -get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or -something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he -did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted -to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history -and philosophy and things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to -TCU? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you? - -Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was? - -Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a -lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he -was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time -I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we -went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening -classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he -wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the -officials at TCU concerning the night school program? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came -back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the -occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he -referred to the schedule. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive -whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when? - -Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either -way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was -encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an -excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not -finish high school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about -his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that -he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he -received from his job at the factory? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have -enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the -factory? - -Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of -income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember -the amount that he was paid. - -Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was -the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It -seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and -he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of -which he seemed to be very proud. - -I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a -closet full of junk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them? - -Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one -article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet -Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you -have just expressed? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet -Union, but I can't identify the articles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might -have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was -the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, -and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he -spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow -before leaving the Soviet Union to return? - -Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he -was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I -heard him mention being in Moscow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he -encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to -return to the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the -difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put -on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out -specifically. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered -with the U.S. authorities in that regard? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about -the U.S. officials concerning his return? - -Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned -him money to return? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way -or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation -would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect -this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never -expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that -gave him the money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the -Government officials concerning his return? - -Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to -the State Department? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions -with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet -Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived? - -Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an -outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the -two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case, -that she did pay attention to him. - -He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, -could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where -the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or -something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he -helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were -lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them -any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if -he had too many acquaintances. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the -fellow factory workers were trying to learn English? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help -him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he -evidently gave him quite a bit of help. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was -trying to learn English? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and -refused to pay attention. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in -learning Russian? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian -language while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he -went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just -stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina -helped him quite a bit. - -Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared -to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union. - -In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his -Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and -therefore he gave me the dictionary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman? - -Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing -and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there -or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate -it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you -in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the -Commission. How do you want to handle it? - -Mr. GREGORY. Either way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service. - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and -we will eventually return it to you. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you -are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to -Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are -the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that -available. - -Mr. GREGORY. All right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips -that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to -firearms? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything -that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special -interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used -that terminology? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but -evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met -quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure, -but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, -too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have -said about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had -written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they -refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her -difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they -disapproved her decision to come to the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that -she had with her relatives? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to -you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion? - -Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested -and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to -me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it -was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept -saying, "When I learn English, it will be different." - -She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I -will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite -enthusiastic about America. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested -to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you -discuss that with her at all? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and -she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into -it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't -want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I -can't answer specifically. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help -her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian -or to improve your Russian? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with -Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the -Soviet Union and return to the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was -dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed -to be one of his major things. - -And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he -went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the -workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This -might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that -they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe -in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he -believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the -party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, -that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they -were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because -so-and-so and so-and-so." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised -in the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told -you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East -Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about -that. - -Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just -asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and -something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it, -where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or -some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it, -but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet -Union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in -Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York? - -Mr. GREGORY. He did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I -have just stated? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the -United States to Texas? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the -conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you -previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed -to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he -thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about -the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never -had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I -remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them -to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be -interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really -have any strong feelings, they would have come out then. - -He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living -in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad -part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment -there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of -wealth and position? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he -ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to -Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission -to become married, or anything of that nature? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite -fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you -about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already -covered? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian -military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of -equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from -Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he -knew anything about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you? - -Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and -economics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this, -because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very -much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than -most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us -as much as you can. - -Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the -impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he -would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because -he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview -with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a -question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind -of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't -know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion -about economics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him -and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on -their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity -of the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because -I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get -someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to -get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but -he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just -talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we -went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her -arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. -You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was -the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to -be mad, because Marina had dropped the child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms? - -Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do? - -Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say? - -Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the -medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through -it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut -on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out -again, but it was a real hot moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other -reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper? - -Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard -reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this -time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did -you get the black eye. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any reason to think that---- - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own -experience? - -Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought -maybe it could have happened back there then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your -opinion that he had a bad temper? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person -that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We -were very friendly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, -is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit -him as an agent? - -Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed -toward the Soviet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just -didn't enter my mind that he could have been. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered -this question; is that correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all? - -Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less -his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was -interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange -program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students -and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was, -how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told -me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never -get there." - -He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get -involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought -about everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on -your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the -assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was, -but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say, -fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant. - -But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him -mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the -assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the -assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion -you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you -knew him in 1962? - -Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I -enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very -pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He -had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more -or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone -he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath -him, and he thought that everyone was judging him. - -I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they -were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts. - -And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced -the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations -were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very -smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other -examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about -what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of -education? - -Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal -education? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make -any inquiries on that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished -high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher -education. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the -opinion, that he was capable of violent acts? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only -picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of -person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into -a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him -doing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the -assassination? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general -judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go -downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would -probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my -general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever -happened. It is just a general judgment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is -it not? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that -caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was -peculiar in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he -never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did -think that about Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation -was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders -in the various countries? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement, -and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the -leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy? - -Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I -have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of -Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall -that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles -being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to -reflect on your prior testimony? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the -statement. It was more or less---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed -at all? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; no such animosity. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits, -as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned? - -Mr. GREGORY. He never drank in my presence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any -other women during the time that you knew him? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he was? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or in his possession? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or discuss the subject of firearms? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the -Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent? - -Mr. GREGORY. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first -time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he -came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time he had been to TCU? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to -commit suicide? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The same question as to Marina? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know James Martin? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never met James Martin at any time? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet him in Oklahoma? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I never met him in Oklahoma. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin? - -Mr. GREGORY. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his -brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another -half brother and his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The name was Pic, was it not? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I learned that after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination did you learn that there was a -man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager? - -Mr. GREGORY. I believe I read the name in the paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or -any other place? - -Mr. GREGORY. Never heard of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be -Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or -anything else? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about -Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if -we ever went anywhere, I drove. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a -simple statement? - -Mr. GREGORY. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he -said, "Yes." - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you ask him that? - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery -store or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive a car? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about -it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he -rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of -him driving a car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. GREGORY. Very. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at -that time? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television -when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And -later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I -felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in -because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be -a likely person, but I did not think he had done it. - -The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service -talked to me and said the evidence looked---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and -said it looked like he was the one. And my--I more or less reoriented -my thinking that he was the one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you -remember? - -Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Nielsen? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think that was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's -alleged guilt? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he just said something that, I think something came -over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then -he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or -something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't -remember the exact words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was -a member during the time you knew him? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he -belonged? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he -associated? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then -the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think I heard my father mention the name De -Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do not know him personally, however? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. If there is anything that -you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it. - -If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I -haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the -record now. - -Mr. GREGORY. No; I think you have covered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to -thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman -to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very -much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE - -The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Helen Leslie of 4209 Hanover Street, Fort -Worth, Tex. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Not Fort Worth--Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about -to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member -of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was -created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission -to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald -Kennedy. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, I know what it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And all the circumstances surrounding it. - -Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the -commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the -United States, is chairman. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to -you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to -inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that -assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had -any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, -Marina Oswald. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking -here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to -assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein -and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking -your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us. - -Mrs. LESLIE. I will be glad to--as much as I can. - -Mr. JENNER. You just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen -to you. - -Mrs. LESLIE. I don't think I know very much; actually it is very little. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you appear voluntarily. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. Now, you want to know if I met the man and his wife? - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can take it by easy steps, if you will let me. - -Mrs. Leslie, you live in Dallas? - -Mrs. LESLIE. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I -was born, how I came here? - -Mr. JENNER. All right, do that, will you? - -Mrs. LESLIE. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This -year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years -ago. - -Mr. JENNER. 2 years ago? - -Mrs. LESLIE. In 1960--it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband -died in 1947, whom I married--I married in 1923, so I am a widow about -17 years. - -Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but -my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife, -asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live -together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I -settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and -where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret--there was not a real -Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which -certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a -Russian church on Newton Street. - -Mr. JENNER. On what street? - -Mrs. LESLIE. On Newton Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that St. Nicholas? - -Mrs. LESLIE. No, St. Seraphim. - -Mr. JENNER. The sermon is preached in English, is it not, at St. -Seraphim? - -Mrs. LESLIE. In English--Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way, -Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came -there to christen the daughter June, I heard. - -Now, I was introduced to a few Russian people here. - -Mr. JENNER. When you came here? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and -she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She -is a ballerina--a dancer. She met here many people--mostly connected -with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's -Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs. -Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. To Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Declan Ford and then to the Mellers. - -Mr. JENNER. The Mellers, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some -Russians in Fort Worth--those Fort Worth Russians--the Clarks. - -Mr. JENNER. Max Clark--Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Those are all the Russians which I knew here. - -Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in -1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there -was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am -interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in -Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them -and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet -Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother -since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but -I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them, -because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George -Bouhe's apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the -12th of June 1962. - -Mrs. LESLIE. 1962--so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which -year it was--it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him--I -just have seen them once. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a meeting at George Bouhe's house? - -Mrs. LESLIE. At George Bouhe's house--where he lives--I could be wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it during the daytime or the evening? - -Mrs. LESLIE. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't -know exactly--I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some -entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this -couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was there in addition to yourself and Mr. Bouhe? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for -dinner, so I presume it was something--3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we -were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place -for dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. And who was present on that occasion? - -Mrs. LESLIE. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I -tell you--when I was introduced to Oswald--I didn't catch his name, his -last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't -impress me very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--he didn't impress me, you know, but the only -thing--the only one thing impressed me--he was talking quite fluently -Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in -very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there, -but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian -language, but sometimes he was--he didn't use grammar things or -something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some -mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Marina? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying--they -have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a -pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I -think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy -and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will -tell you--this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to -help everybody he can. So, he was born also in--Petrograd, before the -Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard -she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this -couple. He wanted to help them. - -Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and -she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard -even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of -Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now--so many new -words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice -Russian language and that's all I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she speak good grammatically? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a -different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because -she knew all terms, the Latin terms--something that not many people -know, because she was educated in this field. - -Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby, -you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby -it was. It wasn't the second baby then. - -Then, I never met them--sometimes I was getting calls--how was this -Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work -for him--he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too -little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them -financially. - -Mr. JENNER. Bouhe solicited money from you and others? - -Mrs. LESLIE. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a -quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or -anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money -and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they -are and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that -you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing -extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a -man like George Bouhe? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet -with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is -a temperate man, a little bit--he can tell you--insult you sometimes -without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years, -so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of -the finest things which happens. - -When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of -my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian -costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in -an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he -wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted -to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was -pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then--she was very -pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took -her photograph in the costume and when I was 5 years old, I sold this -photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I -forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston -with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting -Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and -it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a -portrait of my mother. - -It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years -out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was -a very rare case. - -I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find -it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years -finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe, -I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition, -maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more. -He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't -have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he -says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for -$60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care -only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20." -And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this -book--or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?" - -There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how -can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book -and I will show you. I cannot tell you." - -And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks -and so forth?' - -I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you -call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I -have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I -found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my -job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank -him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can -show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know -you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which -one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not -interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force -myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you -know, so since that--it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of -it. - -After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at -Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He -says he doesn't want me to know him--he doesn't want to know me, so I -do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and -that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since--since this case, but -I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology. -I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and -when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know, -duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's -the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with -Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say, -"Hello, how are you," and that's all. - -Mr. JENNER. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act -toward each other on the occasion when you saw them? - -Mrs. LESLIE. I will tell you something--I don't know if Bouhe told you -or others too. When she was out at a place--she had a black eye and she -has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a -question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I -hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a -light, the door was open and I hit it--the kitchen door." - -And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he -was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was -sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was -Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a -Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife--this -is not proper--to beat his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, now, we don't approve of that in America. - -Mrs. LESLIE. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and -like Fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out -in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little -blanket--she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she -said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English -and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do -and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house -and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I -don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took -her--I think, you know, that she was staying with them. - -I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I -lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I -didn't see her until when she was on television. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to ask you about a certain George De -Mohrenschildt. - -Mrs. LESLIE. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my -daughter's and he is in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know that. - -Mrs. LESLIE. And he was patronizing Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of fellow was George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. LESLIE. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have -pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting -her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter--Nattialie Krassooska -of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima -ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going -together, swimming together, and I don't know where--that's why she -invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when -I came, he already married this Jeanne. - -Mr. JENNER. Jeanne? - -Mrs. LESLIE. She's Russian--I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or -Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name -is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know, -a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South -America or somewhere, you know, they walked. - -Mr. JENNER. From the Mexican border down to Panama? - -Mrs. LESLIE. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were -the arrangements he made--with some Life Magazine, or something, -but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make -geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens -like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very -much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she -sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a -letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife, -Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he -was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then, -occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then -once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they -were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will -tell you something--that what many people were afraid of, his wife is -atheist. She doesn't believe in God. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my -daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing -in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist -too, you know, so I don't know--maybe he always is under the influence -of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't -know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says, -"Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and -his attitude? - -Mrs. LESLIE. You know, after this trip, they are very--they don't like -to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks, -dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a -little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect -them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was -saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or -I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and -there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't know what kind of -people--whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I -cannot tell. - -I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so -that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts. - -Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't -either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with--and I -don't know who knows them best, but I think--whether the Mellers do or -not--I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in -these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they -was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew -he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably -she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you -know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is -so hard to leave from there--his wife and child, why they let them out. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did this occur to you? - -Mrs. LESLIE. It has occurred to everybody--how--he was so poor and -Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time -he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans--he was -taking these trips--who supplied him with money--nobody knows. You -know, that's a thought everybody was thinking--how he went there and -how--it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions. - -Mr. JENNER. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers -and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of -good heartedness? - -Mrs. LESLIE. I hope so--I think so--I hope so. Mostly, you know, I -cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I -don't know--he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. On the Baltic Sea? - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural -that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and -not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their -place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I -know--they was meeting them--somebody told that the FBI was looking for -De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I -think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this -is over. Probably he will come back into the United States. - -Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes--I wanted to tell this--so, when this -naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy -was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was -Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot -and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume -that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald, -and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her; -you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know -his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything, -and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met -them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a -friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did -you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his -name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name." - -They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And -they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said, -"Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more -closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize -him, because when you are not expecting--I didn't know his last name -and such a common face he has, and such a--you couldn't remember his -face very closely--it is just one person you can recognize him, and -that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so -bad; I shaked his hand--I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked -his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the -President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to -touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I -am sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen her since the occasion you met her? - -Mrs. LESLIE. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford. -It was correct that they was helping her because she received so much -from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and -they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything -and they was investing it or something--I don't know the situation, but -she is now--they asked her--as Russian--to watch over her. I don't know -what she does--I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to -my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to--I don't know, -but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to--I don't -know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in, -I know, at an inconvenience to you. - -Mrs. LESLIE. But if I can help with something I want to. - -Mr. JENNER. You were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it, -you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer -to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; you will mail it to me? - -Mr. JENNER. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. -attorney's office, he will have it. - -Mrs. LESLIE. I have to write his name. - -Mr. JENNER. And he will know when your transcript is ready. - -Mrs. LESLIE. He will call me on the telephone? - -Mr. JENNER. You had better call him because there are so many -witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and -read it and sign it. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told -it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide -anything. - -Mr. DAVIS. That's the name and the phone number. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Sir, I will call him and ask him--what I have to ask--is -my deposition ready? - -Mr. JENNER. If the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read? - -Mrs. LESLIE. To read--all right; thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. You give him your name and he will tell you. - -Mr. DAVIS. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may -be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant -attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be -the one you could reach and she would be at this same number. - -Mrs. LESLIE. All right; I will do it. - -Mr. DAVIS. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank -you so much, Mrs. Leslie. - -Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT - -The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m., on -April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr. -Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. -Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition -you are about to give? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received -letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have -you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one. - -Mr. JENNER. One joint letter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter. - -Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint -Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of -the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon -Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and -appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and -obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by -the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and -by deposition. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission? - -Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment. - -I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the -Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to -the subject matter with which the Commission is charged. - -In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. -Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and -the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John -F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that -assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the -Commission relevant to its obligations. - -In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for -some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of -deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of -their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina -Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of -our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt -befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with -them. - -As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people -who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the -facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that -are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious. - -I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may -not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of -course, than any one witness would know. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me -quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President -Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren -committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, -being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international -assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract -may be broken. - -So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he -said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best. - -Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, -this is unofficial--one of the ministers informed me of that--in which -this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I -am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band. - -Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter. - -Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a -letter he received from someone. - -Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that? - -Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure -it could not have been anything official. - -I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the -Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter -and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, -personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary -admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do -anything like that, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be -somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication -from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non -grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or -that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non -grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there -in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is -important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, -and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with -it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first -came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. -It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the -country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally -got that contract about in March last year. - -So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also -to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me -to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, -just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this -respect, because it is really very important to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American -geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I -have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is -not a fly-by-night project, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about -it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. -You were born in 1911? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April -4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the -calendar. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in -calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here. - -Mr. JENNER. And what date by---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th. - -Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you born? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr. - -Mr. JENNER. What country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland -rather than Russia. Would you explain this? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never -lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is -that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian -descent. - -Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may -I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your -grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and -received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, -or maybe your family. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name -is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the -spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a -Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a -typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in -any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, -you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they -probably changed it to S-c-h-i-l-d-t. And it can also be written in -Russian, at the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the -Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk -Province. - -Mr. JENNER. He was what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected -representative of the landowners to the Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and -spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes -Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe -five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well. - -Mr. JENNER. Spanish? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish. - -Mr. JENNER. French? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it. - -Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they -speak French there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was---- - -Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying -to make this informal. I want you to relax. - -May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, -I will tend to inquire into these things. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what -I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, -international business---- - -Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation -have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because -when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of -anything. I am very outspoken. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that you are, from witnesses I have -interviewed, and from these mountains of reports. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those -reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my -business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be -the circumstances of death. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an -important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he -had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean -nothing. You tell us what you mean by that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the -persecution of Jews. - -Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some -elements of oppression of the Czarist government. - -Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional -government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member -of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that. - -Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago. - -Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who -is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I -should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as -you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And -it will be printed as part of the report. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the -future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what -I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I -vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the -Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an -independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility -position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older -brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't -remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there--in -the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came. - -Mr. JENNER. And that came when? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were -returned to Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, -one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters -of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so -sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile. - -Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. -Petersburg and Moscow? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me -such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very -difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a -story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a -memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed -it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to -change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little -bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many -years, because I did write it down. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was -governor--not governor, but marshal of nobility of. - -Mr. JENNER. What province is that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where -Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his -experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very -well. - -Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the -Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, -and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I -don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied -by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I -don't remember which one---there was famine there. So we escaped. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the -time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my -brother was in the Naval Academy at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course. - -He is about 12 years older than you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11. - -Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, -more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, -or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived -there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists -eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make -it short. - -Mr. JENNER. Please--that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But -I want times. About when was your father put in jail? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the -first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember -very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first -time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were -fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released -my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we -always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who -always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, -because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway -Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to -escape from Soviet Russia. - -The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland -again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated -and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide -whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father -decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression -that they have changed. - -Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have -become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some -kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember -which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because -he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what -was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, -also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of -the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this -appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture--I don't remember -what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain -number of months--although there was a famine there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then -one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show -you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing -museums in churches. And my father objected to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by -principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected -to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too -much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started -criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more -distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. -And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing. - -Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. -This was a revolutionary period? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living -somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He -is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life -imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far -as I remember the name of it. - -And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever -they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government -do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, -"Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence--just -because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against -him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very -sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped -previously---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't -remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised -my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, -and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the -position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was -not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be -sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that -he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of -times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, -and he was able to be sent to Siberia. - -And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is -where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped -him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, -in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland. - -Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno. - -Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died -from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had -this typhoid fever. - -Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was what year? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von -Mohrenschildt at this particular time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French -orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like -the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we -used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, -interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite -some time, and died here---- - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give -his full name. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt -was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in -Washington? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist -Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married -McAdoo's daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post. - -Is she still alive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona. - -Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. -She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he -died--I guess in 1925 or 1924. - -Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But -supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of -the Baltic nobility. - -Mr. JENNER. Through what source? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of -Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his -perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no. - -Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to -many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in -the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you -perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that -of record. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons, -in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to -use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea. - -Mr. JENNER. Which one? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and -your brother Dimitri? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, -which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high -school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that -is where our home was. - -Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back -our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land. - -Mr. JENNER. In Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist -Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through -the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this -estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the -border. - -Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among -themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe -5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres. - -Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take -it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to -sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the -peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, -probably jointly. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call -the gymnasium, in 1929. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years sf age? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father -during this period? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to--I did not like the country -very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly -feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like -home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission -to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission -because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the -Polish Army. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the -cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it -was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility -displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it -because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible -for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a -reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the -same position or division in the Polish Army? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people -there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German -aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some -exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, -not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, -and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, -you have to have your own horse. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land -from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about -my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then -became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was -always--always liked to teach. - -Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his -profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience -as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a -professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the high school? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the -immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number -of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or -1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different -school. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in -which he was teaching? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's--not -supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, -by the way--did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university -in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee -school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish -school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you -have a command? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, -because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted -schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who -graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half. - -Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military -service? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate -officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned -officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military -academy. - -Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be -commissioned a second lieutenant? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely -a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a -commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives -you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and -pursue that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was -free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur -de Commerce a Anvers. - -Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher -commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of -higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, -from time to time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go -with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that -twice. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very -hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what -it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a -candidate officer. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the -contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get -it on the record here--your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, -he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he -was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start -very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you -would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial -Navy, became a midshipman. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, -which is the headquarters there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as -March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at -Dartmouth and Yale. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a -midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from -Annapolis here. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in -the navy, all the time--even when you are 12 years old, you are a -member of the navy. It is not like here. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period -of fighting. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist -groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in -a town called Smolensk. - -Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the -time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in -a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at -liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them. - -My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they -told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say -one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices. - -Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him -against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist -prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners -of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my -father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic -bishop in Poland. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my -brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined -us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the -United States. - -Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on -the 20th of August 1920. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate -year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just -before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join -the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was -appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But -we have you now in Belgium, attending the university. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still -in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He -had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval -academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly -better than high school here. - -Mr. JENNER. Junior college? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher -commercial studies in Antwerp? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, -probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. -You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in -maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation. - -Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you received---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there. - -Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher -learning in Europe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon. - -Mr. JENNER. And you received a---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and -commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. -It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a -specialization in maritime transportation. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master -of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's -degree, you continued on for another year, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. No; you entered---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years. - -Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that degree? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of -the United States on Latin America. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in -Latin America? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are -about---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938. - -Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now,---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me -from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was -studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married. - -Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady -by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with -Edward Hooker, were you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she -not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some -place. She lives between New York and Paris. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during -this period? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were -pursuing your studies at two universities? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a -girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski -clothes, and that sort of thing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through -Europe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, -from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an -excellent saleswoman. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation -in the estate you had? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me -to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand -dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but -at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I -really don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much -as $10,000. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't have---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this -business, Sigurd. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, -decided to come to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced -me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came -to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a -mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, -between my ex-girl friend and myself. - -Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938. - -Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain -yourself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought -some money with me--something like $10,000, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately? - -Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, -if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started -selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some -materials for Shumaker and Company. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. 750? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the -summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island. - -Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also -her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a -divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. -We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little -girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also -very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we -still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally -correspond. - -Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials -in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my -blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which -is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and -confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. -I arrived in Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there--because that skips -some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that? - -Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy. - -Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. -I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an -insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that -examination. So that was the end of my insurance business. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which -was--this is about 1941. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for -Humble Oil Co. - -Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939. - -Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and -wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry. - -Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what -actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a -very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret -Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in -Louisiana. That is about the year 1939. - -I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's -aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New -Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co. - -Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, -but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I -applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil -Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through -mutual acquaintances. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig. - -Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning -machinery. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well -paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at -the time. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for -the record. - -You are 6'1", are you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to -ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I -went to Arizona. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do -is get your personality into the record, because many people have -described your personality. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably. - -Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised -the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would -be surprised. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to -get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble -Oil Co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the -Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I -know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to -play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to -get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason -I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember -what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is -after my experience with Humble Oil Co. - -Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you -call it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called. - -Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months. - -Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery -in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was -badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, -frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. -I do not remember. Maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. But -I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the -company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the -oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and -education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me -the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean--drill -wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well. - -Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so -early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of -business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that." - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could -do it without capital. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did -you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic -dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried -insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this -insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, -Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of -money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it -was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then--yes, then comes the -draft time in the U.S. Army. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, -and they found I have high blood pressure. - -Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in -1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish -Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I -did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas -experience with the Humble Oil Co. - -Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was -just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was -there--I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe -it was my duty to be in the Polish Army. - -And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I -never arrived in Poland. - -I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late -to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably -wouldn't be alive today. - -Mr. JENNER. You have some---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, -I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it -is not my intention. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You -are calling on your own recollection. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call -it, tenuous connection with some movie business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went -into. - -Mr. JENNER. This was 1941? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron -Maydell. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person. - -Mr. JENNER. In what sense? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him -pro-Nazi. - -Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a -German spy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer -in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything -through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back -to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White -Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had -been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and -so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. -And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary -movies. - -Mr. JENNER. Documentary? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film -Facts Incorporated. - -Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the -Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over -the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, -because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite -a number of people here. I remember most of them--by Grace, who is -president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we -could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This -is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made -in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by -Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell -had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for -the benefit of the Polish refugees. - -Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small -amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually -a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make -some money; number two, to help the Polish cause. - -So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to -be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it -together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very -moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. -I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or -something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership. - -The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think -they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in -the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their -own purpose. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will -Never Die." It was an assembly job. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music -together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did -not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York -to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it -all together. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great -grandfather. - -Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, -later went to Russia, entered the oil business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family -some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the -Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron -Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in -it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name -of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went -back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on -his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and -inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the -American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, -being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you -call it--a descendant---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a -member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about -that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the -lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in -Vintage Wine, Inc. - -Mr. JENNER. On a commission? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and -Company. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French -intelligence in the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in -1941. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in -pro-German activity, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you -see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that -it was French intelligence. - -Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and -tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for -the French interests. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the -United States were not at war yet at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system -whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil -by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some -contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we -met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose -names now I have forgotten. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think -it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and -daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States -got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they -could not buy oil here anyhow. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000--I thought it was $10,000, -frankly. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom? - -Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. -Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your -recollection was better in 1945 than it is now. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. -Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? -Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come -back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical -doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. -Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in -Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well. - -Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy -Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, -the good life, and very good businessman at the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people -accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, -you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--Lilia -Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was -a divorcee. - -Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a -husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman. - -Mr. JENNER. Guasco? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, -anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell -in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United -States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my -experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond -comprehension. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't -have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could -laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend -following false trails. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are -following them. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they -followed. - -But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for -awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from -Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet. - -Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach. - -On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by -some characters. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach -enjoying the sunshine. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make--take some photographs when you were in -Aransas Pass? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other. - -Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas -Pass? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, -I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the -coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the -Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass? - -Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one -to tell me about that. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, -which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, -and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down -at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an -outing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay -of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass. - -Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was -then at war. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military -installations around Aransas Pass. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with -this lady friend of yours? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of -the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are -a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is -my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I -thought they were from some comedy actors. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI. - -Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have -the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed -me all the way from New York--all the way from New York. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched -your car? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, -except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches. - -Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, -very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to -the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't -forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That -I do not recall exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint -officially. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially. - -Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was -stolen. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they -expelled me from Mexico. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a -statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico -City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except -painting and going around with Lilia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some -money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and -the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that -outfit, because it was going to--the stock was going to go up, which I -did. I made some nice money out of that investment. - -Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 -months with this lady? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on -Avenue De--the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. -Paseo de la reforma. - -Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some -difficulty in Mexico, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army. - -Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away -from me. We were going to get married. - -Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think -by the time she got to Mexico--she already got a Mexican divorce. I am -sure she did. She was already free. - -Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question -about whether it was good in the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she -was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We -thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and -had me thrown out of the country. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some -accusation? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really? - -Mr. JENNER. I am asking you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non -grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as -I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why -am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done -anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back -to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some -Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of -those Mexicans who tried to help me. - -Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your attorney? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a -good friend of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to -leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of -Mexico." - -Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other -friends, and did some traveling around Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. -And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You -could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there -at the time was a young MacArthur boy. - -Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. -He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips -together. The son of John MacArthur. - -Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By train? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I -don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a -chair car. But, believe me, they are very often---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started -to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that. - -Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think. - -Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest -in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and -then I remember once I went to Palm Beach. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then? - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became -your first wife, Dorothy Pierson? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the -daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an -Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother -and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was -the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an -American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I -fell in love with each other and got married. - -Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young. - -Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York. - -Mr. JENNER. In New York City? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later. - -Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce -took place--well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never -married her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to -marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back -to Mexico. - -Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in -Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She had two sons? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys. - -Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorothy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the -16th of June 1943? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are -very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some -place. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas -Day, was it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. 1943? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York -City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed -book? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did -you do some painting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file -of paintings in Mexico. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street. - -Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were -original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have -some. - -Mr. JENNER. They are water colors? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military -installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican -types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make -a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old -Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went -together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple -of days with no roads, and finally one evening---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time. - -Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the -middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we -walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We -left the car right there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him -again; and I hope to see him. - -Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still -interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various -directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and -study geology and petroleum engineering. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice -Institute, and University of Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in -that neighborhood? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you -not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see--bohemian and trying to make a -buck, as you might call it. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I -actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did -not have--which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, -as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete -mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. -It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are -very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. -And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, -and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. -And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided -to go---- - -Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that -a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have -the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept -on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was -wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone -in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he -was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice--of all my -friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try -to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the -basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote -some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what -happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who -are very wealthy. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1944. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of -Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum -geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort -and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum -geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my -studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in -American schools. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you -serve as an instructor---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In French. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some -additional money. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of -Texas--all of your studies? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the -University of Texas, did you enter into business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the -Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But -eventually fought with the vice president. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with -the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual -agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, -and a close friend, that I should resign and also---- - -Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. - -Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back -to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I -would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you -see. - -It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated -in Venezuela. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in -Venezuela? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish -passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed -a very short time, and went to Texas again. - -Mr. JENNER. What town? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to -be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying -to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. -And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the -chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee. - -Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is -he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak. - -Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two -of you assisting the chairman? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I -was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group -of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones -actually working for the committee. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting -organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in -Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky -Mountains. It still is. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not -in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But -he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the -Standard Oil of California. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is he? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from -California who sold oil well pumps. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the -various oil companies? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field, -is that correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering -data for the entire field? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to -various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body -in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each -well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was -our main job, you know. - -Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in -that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut -down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond -drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became -very, very successful. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3-1/2 -years, something like that. 3 years, maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did -you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very -pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness -of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. -But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to -Colorado--without being married. - -Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington. - -But I didn't know him. - -Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful -girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we -fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine -an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the -record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a -wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to -Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time. -She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness. - -And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last -boomtown in America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. -We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. -It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life. - -Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to -Aspen, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little -cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. -But then I became chairman. - -Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant -president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the -president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time. I would say--I didn't -take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen. - -But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen. - -Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field. - -Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the -weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my -time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we -decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. -They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee. - -Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to -break it up, didn't you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over -at Aspen, and not being---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly. - -Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it -I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got -together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, -we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the -Engineering Committee." - -I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was about when? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are -interested in my character--is that it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating -oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it -was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United -States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting. - -Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the -end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the -statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I -don't think I ever had any complaint against me. - -Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field -was being developed. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a -statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, -and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, -and your employers questioned it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, -attitude with respect to keeping expenses? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small -there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned -me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But -I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, -more or less, at the same level, maybe lower. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did -you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. The date is not clear to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, this may refresh your recollection. - -Had you become an American citizen in the meantime? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that on the 11th of July 1949 at Denver? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Denver, Colo. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your employment with the Rangely Oil Field Committee -terminated after you became a citizen, did it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection--it occurred about -6 months later? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When your employment in the Rangely Oil Field Committee -terminated, what did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I realized that I could not remain married -to Phyllis, because she was a girl of--who needed money, who needed a -good way of life, needed luxury--she was used to luxury. And I asked -her to go back to her parents, to New York, and that I will try to make -a success out of--I decided to go on my own as a consultant--that I -should try to make a success out of the consulting business. - -But I just should do it by myself, without her being present. And so I -moved to Denver, Colo., gave up that establishment in Aspen, and got -some help from my friends, and with very little money I started my own -consulting firm. - -Mr. JENNER. In Denver? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in Denver. - -Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, did the--was the marriage to Phyllis -Washington terminated? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; either in the meantime or just right at that -time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that by her suit? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; by my suit. - -Mr. JENNER. You filed the suit? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you file that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the court in Denver. She was gone. I returned -in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things. - -Mr. JENNER. You returned to New York City? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to see if we could patch up things. We -became very good friends with the other side of her family, the -Wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of -mine. Bill Wasserman is a banker in New York, used to be ambassador -to Australia during the Roosevelt administration, I think--or to New -Zealand. - -And, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of -her--because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in Europe, they had -also their own difficulties. - -Mr. JENNER. Their own marital difficulties? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they decided we better forget about this -marriage. We remained very fond of each other. But we finally came to -an agreement to have a divorce. And I filed a suit for divorce. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that decree entered? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that I do not remember. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you get your divorce decree from Phyllis -Washington? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a court in Denver, Colo., but I do not recall -the date. - -Mr. JENNER. 1949 or 1950? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something around that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of that marriage? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No children. We were married in Grand Junction, -Colo. And the divorce was entered--the reason was desertion, which was -actually true, because she did not come back to me. She stayed in New -York, or eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an -alcoholic--poor girl. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary -consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil -company in Denver. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his -office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to -start on your own. - -But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing -evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this -will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night -I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, -by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am -just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil -business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, -which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my ex-nephew, -Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had -visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had -done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma. - -I said, "Eddie, how about it?" - -He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time. - -And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch." - -Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner -and Beane." - -We formed a limited partnership together. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so--1950. - -Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. About 2 years? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a -pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the -drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money. - -Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you the field work? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York, -a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver. - -Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second -well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, -because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and -they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first -venture--suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because -Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in -Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your -field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that -correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in -Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we -paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, -our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally -split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. -He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to -make millions. - -My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and -eventually build up some production. - -On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought -the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another -company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a -well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead -of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if -they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual -story. - -I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to -find something less risky. - -He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was -true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that. - -Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite -a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too. - -Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What year? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was -the center of the small size independent operators at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I -married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing. - -Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the -next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch. - -(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED - - -The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. On the record. - -Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back -a minute to your father. - -You left there about 1931 or 1932? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times. - -Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular -reference to World War II? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went -to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to -the United States at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this -was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to -America, and he did not take advantage of it. - -Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you -know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too -old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the -German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he -happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into -hiding. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the -Russians invaded Poland? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other -side? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of -the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence -of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and -the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made -an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin -could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to -a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns. - -Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they they are willing to -go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German -Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of -Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an -enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those -Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the -other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to -Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with -the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist----exceedingly -strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the -sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany -and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we -know--some air raid hit that place where he lived. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old -castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going -to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the -time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go -and see the place where he was buried. - -Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters -through some German friends who stayed there with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he -had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him -during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before -Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, -"George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, -but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free -and nobody is bothering me." - -It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some -positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too -clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not -pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we -went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in -1952--because I was not married--we still had the partnership. I was -visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him -I met my next wife, my last wife. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples. - -Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school -at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That -was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 -years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. -And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, -Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and -also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many -years. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end -of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely -Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler. - -So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and -so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should -marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all -right--obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. -Butler was my best man at the wedding. - -Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler. - -There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember -who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of -ushers. So we got married. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy. - -Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested -in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is -interested---- - -Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi. - -Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her -with that nickname--Didi. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her -graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to -Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to -live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to -take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident -physician---- - -Mr. JENNER. In what hospital? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. Baylor University? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in -Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor -Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very -often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my -partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity -between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi. - -Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. -And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from -such a prominent family. - -Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, -"George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts." - -She had had nervous breakdowns. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is -very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous -breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is -interesting for you, all those details. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she -came to Dallas with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an -apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm -outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei, -and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very -difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name. - -Mr. JENNER. When were those children born? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference--in 1953 and 1954. - -Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, -you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social -problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. -He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such -unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership -and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it -out and divided the proceeds. - -Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the -oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was -staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to -Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, -according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much -better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene. - -Mr. JENNER. Why is that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center -of things than just in a small hick town, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. You---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking -this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from -Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by -the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we -formed a partnership just about the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's -uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle--much younger than his--than her mother, -but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed -friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to -form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with -the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do -the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the -business in Philadelphia. - -We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling -venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some -time. - -Mr. JENNER. What field? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field -belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in -the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that. - -But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide -any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small -things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together. - -Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were -divorced? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We -were married for 5 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our -children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic -nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet. - -Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for -Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary -chairman. - -Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this -foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, -because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It -started with very little--we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now -it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last -year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public -subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and -we got $25,000. - -Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960. - -By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever -disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that -we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic -affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a -marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. -She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little -girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is -in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, -she is a trustee of Temple University. - -But her husband, Dr. Denton---- - -Mr. JENNER. She remarried? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his full name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated -our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of -pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of -Pennsylvania. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some -litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with -respect to some trust? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund. - -Mr. JENNER. Established for whom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had -to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support -of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. -She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, -because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to -accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side -to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far -away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered -constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the -children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a -long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my -ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund. - -Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son. - -Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. -Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the -children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was -a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between -my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in -regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you. - -Mr. JENNER. No--I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives -in Philadelphia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more -or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She -was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation -which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national -foundation. - -She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked -to resign, or resigned herself--I don't know for sure--the other -trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to -resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends -another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think -which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the -administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she -is running this foundation as an administrator. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of -difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live -with me, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. The daughter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living -in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just -the opposite--that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of -the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation -last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of -various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier -with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a -tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we -went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the -middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as -they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the -condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I -get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is -also under psychiatric treatment. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric -treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for -the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, -because they are healthy, and she is not. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some -children born of her present marriage? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife -filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. She commenced it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get -a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The -lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell -our house and settle our accounts. - -Mr. JENNER. Property? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair -for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story -about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did -you remain in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting -work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the -foreign end of this business. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In -1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals -connected with Sinclair Oil Company. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We -were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956. - -Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking -more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. -Sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for -him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some -oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign -jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in -connection with those. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign -work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion -of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was -in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France--I may have forgotten -with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some -work right there in Dallas--examined the geological work and made -suggestions. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually---- - -Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times. - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba--I traveled in Cuba before Castro, -during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed -the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to -promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost -owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the -Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, -and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his -office--that type of job that I had from time to time. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana---- - -Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you -were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and -development for what group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan -Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. -in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I -may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all -consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from Texas or from New -York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well -known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to -a job in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the -Yugoslav Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in -Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia -and help them develop oil resources under the--I don't know--some kind -of government deal. Under this---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--George Mitchell. - -Mr. JENNER. And his wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist. -In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did -pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for -somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found -George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there. - -Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married. - -Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C. - -The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA -paid my salary. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere -around February of 1957, wasn't it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 -months, and I returned in October. - -Mr. JENNER. 1957? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made--quite a -considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them -went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went -to the Bureau of Mines here. - -Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked -me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because -I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I -noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking -me--after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. -One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, -George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he -is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia." - -Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that -correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in -Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia -for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas -firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. -Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a -couple of weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a -divorce. - -Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh -Hotel in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this -separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living -at the Stoneleigh Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you -about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was -Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told -me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry -her. A very charming fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before -you were married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because -we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We -both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we -wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I -remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are -married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it -in the name of---- - -Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former -husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the -States they used the name of Le Gon. - -Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name -is Jeanne, is it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the -Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for -awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We -took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, -her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter -came to live with us. She came from France to live with us. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your -daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in -Arizona, because her mother---- - -Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy -Tilton III. Anyway---- - -Mr. JENNER. She lives where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, -Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up -and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her -husband, Mr. Clark. - -Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left -her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European -way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my -daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We -call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, -it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent -practically all her childhood there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, -as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt -her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one? - -Mr. JENNER. To the adoption? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that -adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived -away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the -daughter. - -I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually -both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra -because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person -to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away -from her. We had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a -custody case. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took -Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. -And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided -that she should be with us. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with -the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my -ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel. -Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a -television producer. - -Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom -our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not -married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not -married. I could not offer her a home--although I wanted her to be with -me. - -And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France." - -And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I -contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a -half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on. - -That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us. - -Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. After you were married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some -time. - -And, finally, she eloped from school---- - -Mr. JENNER. From what school? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of -Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now. - -Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee -Taylor. - -Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody. - -Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a -divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, -is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor. - -Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out -what is happening to the child. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. -Taylor? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, -takes care of the little boy right now. - -Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study---- - -Mr. JENNER. What school is that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the -situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get -occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere -in New York right now. - -Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch -with her right now. - -The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a -hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as -some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now. - -Mr. JENNER. How old is she now? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then. - -While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present -wife's daughter. - -What is her name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as -my wife's. - -Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor. - -My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous -admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name -after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but -that is beside the point. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name---- - -Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to -Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to -pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon. - -Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana -Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton. - -Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, -from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't -know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft -Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of -Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To -make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also -he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them. - -Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there. - -Mr. JENNER. What is---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department. - -Mr. JENNER. In Alaska? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name. - -Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to -make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and -they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond -of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their -name, and that was by mutual agreement. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, -Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, -they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le -Gon? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they -decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed -their name to Le Gon. - -I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying -that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known -designer, she has a name practically as a trademark. - -Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I -was not particularly---- - -Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian -background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in -China, and she was born in China and lived there. - -Mr. JENNER. Harbin? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She -came to the United States the same year I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New -York, and didn't know each other--right next door. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the -present time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her -husband. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And January 1964? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in -Alaska? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in -Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place--in -both places. - -Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children. - -Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more -about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is -of ultra conservative tendencies politically. - -Mr. JENNER. Please explain that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 -percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether -he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have -Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration -for him. - -I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect -votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, -Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in -April 1956? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date -clearly in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a -drinker? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much. - -Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of -all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, -a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close -to it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many -times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I -have drunk more than I should. - -Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at -dates. - -But I think it is 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. -That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, -that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout -all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and -to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would -review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of -mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we -did it. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead. - -Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted -myself. - -At this point, tell me your political philosophies. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I -voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De -Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, -because I believe in freedom. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom -of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of -criticizing something which I think is not democratic. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a -Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if -somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with -fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I -got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics -very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that -subject. But I consider the other person's point of view. - -If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his -business. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some -good characteristics in communism. - -Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that -view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this -country, that there are some good qualities in communism. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your -concept of communism? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from -the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and -works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation -it may be a solution. - -Mr. JENNER. A temporary one? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes--which eventually, and I -believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in -certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way -of life. - -Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I -would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like -business to be free. But---- - -Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to -persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, -you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development -communism is not good? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that about it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. - -Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and -Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which -expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today. - -It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which -says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich -countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for -ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies--could -exist eventually. - -But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the -poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United -States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, -Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are -producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop -the tools to produce industrial goods. - -While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in -the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. -You see what I mean? - -Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, -which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than -they can produce. Now, what can save those countries? - -Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, -or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So -that is something to think about and worthwhile reading. - -Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy -is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual -freedom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my -life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in -Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was -attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor -Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example -of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of -democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that -the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the -President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made -an impression on them. A few examples like that. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates -with the Communists? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk -to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people -active politically--they were not big shots. - -With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you -can discuss. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any -side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in -favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to -communism? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who -does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world -attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? -A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in -free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, -"George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are -not for freedom." - -Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites -are not for freedom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike -it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left -with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction. - -For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in -my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe -in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an -international force?" - -I said, "No." - -He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for." - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and -sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have -insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred -against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it -yourself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection -with the International Cooperation Administration? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I -developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to -use Yugoslav workers and American equipment. - -Mr. JENNER. What workers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very -inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using -American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, -among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, -Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. -So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote -the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be -a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, -using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic -countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see. - -And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility -of forming such a venture. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia -for the International---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you then married? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. -Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to -Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, -in the summer? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married -at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can -correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy -with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I -expressed my point of view pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All right. - -John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract -for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav -labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic -countries--especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. -But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send -Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all -the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And -they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not -use American equipment? - -I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that -type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see -the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia -when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And -I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable -in Washington?" - -And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea." - -It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian -venture--form a corporation. - -I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in -the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project. - -I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, -"George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do -business with those damned Communists." - -So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of -that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany -and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs. - -Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, -or 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. -The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I -have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and -Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all -over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And -this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they -practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the -stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African -countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is -Ghana. - -And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found -out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, -indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And -eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still -are supposed to have it, this concession. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a -philatelist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Explain that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the -philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to -Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist. - -Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De -Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, -because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I -went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went -as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business -you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. -Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all -those countries, as far as concessions go. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. -have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political -with a capital P. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with -Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only -affiliation they have with him. - -Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects -whatsoever? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have -explained? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business. - -Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International -Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had -no political, capital P, implications whatsoever? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business. - -Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool -Corp., that was strictly business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. No politics involved? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. - -Mr. JENNER. Representing---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never. - -Mr. JENNER. Any government? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times. - -Mr. JENNER. Any government? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I could take what you call the fifth -amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to. - -Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time -you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you -feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel -uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been -an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, -except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish -Army--$5 a month. - -Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian -Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations. - -Mr. JENNER. Subject to that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign -government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at -any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital -P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or -a government or even a group against a government? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of -any political group. - -Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather -colorful life have been your personal views? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, -with a capital P, on behalf of any group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like -in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the -discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I -say what I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any -kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in -anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian -venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in -Europe, traveled around Europe. - -We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you -came here in May of 1938. - -I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you -started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into -Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your -own words, how it came about, and what you did. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it -is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick -MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we -were both young men in Mexico. - -And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country -mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and -useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of -the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the -Conquistadors. - -You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, -and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are -all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I -started collecting through the years--I started collecting information -on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico. - -But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the -time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of -my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all -that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away -from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to -follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central -America, and possibly all the way to South America. - -And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical -therapy for your mental problems. - -And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me -that that is something we should do. - -We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the -ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. What ranch? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a -friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the -Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little -town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras. - -There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name -is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half -Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras. - -By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, -a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their -house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance -call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close -friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to -take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in -the outdoor life. - -And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 -kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very -difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way -to the Panama Canal. - -Mr. JENNER. All the way to where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the -longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole -of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, -and Panama. - -And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our -mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of -the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to -nature for a whole year. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico -City. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that -is interesting. This is completely a different incident. - -I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf -of---- - -Mr. JENNER. Just a minute. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year. - -Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. November, I believe. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other -occasion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as -well complete it. Tell us about that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas -Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract -with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, -this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border. - -Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in -jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is -the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big -Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs, -asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and -try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in -Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government. - -Mr. JENNER. You say "we." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me. - -Mr. JENNER. Your present wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear -you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960--one or the -other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this -particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you -call it, was this particular---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is -the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos -of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with -Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there. - -By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some -financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican -Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through -my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I -knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any -particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, -and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the -most interesting jobs I ever had. - -And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were -technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the -night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, -why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?" - -I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to -meet the character." - -He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to -learn something from him. - -So I said, "All right, I will go with you." - -And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people -at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very -peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern -people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public -with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them. - -Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she -says, "I better go instead of you." - -Mr. JENNER. Your wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the -Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for -the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a -Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport. - -It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the -Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that -mess. - -Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After -that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will -introduce you to Mikoyan." - -And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, -Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because -it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that -security officers without being detected--because she was right there -in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she -says, "I am from Texas." - -"What do you mean from Texas?" - -She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and -visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner." - -And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see -you." - -So here was the Mikoyan incident. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan -incident? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business -reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy -buddy with Mikoyan. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the -Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of -Pigs invasion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything -about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it--except I remember we -arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, -we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have -to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with -us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We -did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails. - -Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with -us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. -That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around -the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and -to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white -boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me. - -And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys." - -The consulate--we received our mail through the American consulate. - -Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not -Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through -the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul -there--could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry -my shotgun there. - -He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you." - -And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the -road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central -American countries? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our -way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples. - -Mr. JENNER. Samples of what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to -have---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff -we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry -150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. -It is a manuscript I have--600 pages--day for day description of -our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The -publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a -publisher in France, and they may publish it. - -Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more -color it might be salable. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by -day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will -make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of -our trip, day by day. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to -record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I -had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever -been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever -visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked -many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here -with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends -in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about -1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting -to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of -our trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only -what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to -civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big -cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how -we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They -thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. -All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top -of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people -that we had money with us--we did carry money with us. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At -the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. -Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa -Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles -written about our trip in the local papers. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central -America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a -desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of -my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason. - -Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested -at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help -seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war -in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book. - -But I had nothing to do with it. - -Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to -Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of -territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not -many people can do it, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, -and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many -times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived -in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going -to visit this old man, a friend of my father's. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to -be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry -in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I -discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went -as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost -like his son. - -We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died -very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, -taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian -Government at the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in -which you are now engaged? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the -first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the -Minister of Finance--that they are interested in my project, which the -project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have -anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working -and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the -contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that -contract. - -Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business. - -Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups -are you a member? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is -something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not -a member--I am not interested. I am too busy. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a group. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them -political or otherwise, of which you have been a member. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum -Club political? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum -Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, -because I don't live there any more. - -I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists. - -I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think -my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now. - -I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists. - -I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a -registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it. - -Purely professional organizations. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you -have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member -of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the -American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even -knew it existed. - -You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not -interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, -except when I want to improve something in our way of life. - -Mr. JENNER. In our own way. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. -But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, -because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself. - -Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in -improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on -your part? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to -Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch -very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the -Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in -Washington when I want to have something done about something. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you land? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship -directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles. - -And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of -Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and -Jim Savage, engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment -in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to -live--6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our -trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife -started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all -the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time -I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing -consulting work, in Dallas. - -Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those -dates, because you have them written down, and I don't. - -So I cannot vouch for some of the dates. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head -at the moment. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large -manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with -me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip -with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her -profession of designer. - -So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she -started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in -Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you -do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you -use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in -Dallas at or along about that time. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife -and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This -is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same -type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia -with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens. - -Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to -the right, but all within the limits of true democracy. - -One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is -Ilya Mamantov. - -I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them. - -He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society -group, because he works for a large company. - -Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. -Voshinin. What is his first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to -her. - -Mr. JENNER. The Clarks? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Max Clark? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali. - -Mr. JENNER. Gali is of Russian derivation? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper -society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families -better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, -who is a lawyer, as you know. - -Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you -don't pronounce correctly her name. - -Mr. JENNER. That may well be. - -Paul Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in -business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and -years. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind. - -Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said -it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk. - -You are acquainted with her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people -forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort -Worth, Irving area. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. -Thomas Ray. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Which one? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the -advertising business. - -Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is their history? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is---- - -Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or -brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she -speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of -Russian parentage. - -Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think -I know it. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the -son. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them. - -Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have -named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the -Russian community? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others. - -Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the -Oswalds. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the -Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. -And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of -Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows -the others. Maybe he does. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the -Russian priest. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox -priest there. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri. - -Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek -Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor -of Spanish at SMU. - -Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or -sects or groups, in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek -Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not -tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely -Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The -one that Father Dimitri is the head of--he is an American and quite a -large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services -are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also. - -Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are -segregated into two groups. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us -call it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other -group. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does. - -Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into -Dallas, through these church groups? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time--I don't know what your -propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when -you were in Dallas, were you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to -the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, -the old guard church. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I -got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa -now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to -South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa. - -Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during -the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not -call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized -religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group -there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is -amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a -little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as I said, to -sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, -if that is the answer. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to -convert people--constantly they push to convert people. But I go -occasionally--on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to -see the group, because I like many of those people. - -Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you -have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest -or belief in communism? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Communists are---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to -stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church -is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the -schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe -one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox -denomination. - -Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know -for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with -others? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand -for a year to be in the jungle. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, -Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient -person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in -your social habits. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they -mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people. - -Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's -reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their -boredom. Sometimes life is very boring. - -Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative -questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so. - -Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a -little more serious-minded? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It certainly has been suggested. - -Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't -believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as -well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, -of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, -what kind of a community it was. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, -and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of -which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw -a good deal of them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It -is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of -Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly -in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 -families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a -very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with -a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along -very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that. - -I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than -coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own -words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to -the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962--without involving them -now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided -by classes. You see what I mean? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I don't. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and -a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a -question of money as a question of good education, and of background. -And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course, -comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an -excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom -we were very close. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is---- - -Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil. - -Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had -many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business. - -Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people -in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I -know his wife better. - -Mr. JENNER. Is his wife also a Russian emigre? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and -Armenian, extraction. - -Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him -through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, -another one who lived there--Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina. - -Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of -the ballerina. - -Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really -hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there -are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the -Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the -old palaces from the czarist days. - -Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am -glad that you made such a distinction there. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to -believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian -wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some -connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian -wife out of Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might -believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils -that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do -something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever -know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one. - -Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most -leftest of them all. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do not---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not. -But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, -because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had -visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, -as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there -for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, -and then returned back to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us -assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right -now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally -happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the -community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there -was a Russian couple? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally. - -Mr. JENNER. Curious? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your wife? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious -would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first -in Dallas--he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he -is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to -convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become -acquainted throughout the community? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia, -from the Soviet Union, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They -would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards -they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them -would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is -a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't -there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I -will put it this way: When did you first hear---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a -close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there -is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them -already--Max Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read -about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the -exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper, -maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American -who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet -Union? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything -about them before. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when -this conversation took place. - -Mr. JENNER. When did it take place? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the -summer of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe -said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them--I -don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about -them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent -family--supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet -Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George -Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an -ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that. - -Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted -your recollections as to the conversation right at that point? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember -that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a -woman she is. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was -pretty? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because--but it is -nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster. - -Mr. JENNER. You have---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better -looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. -You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But -anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who -were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet -Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women -like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory. - -Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit -vague on that. - -I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we -met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so -many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure -how I first met them. - -Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who -gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George -Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali -Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see. - -And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire -poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth. - -I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, -Colonel Orlov. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a -Russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from -Russia. - -And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in -Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two -of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, -and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5 -o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov. - -Mr. JENNER. She answered the door. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we -are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a -little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think -he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her -especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not -particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing -one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, -horrible surroundings. - -Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that -she knew substantially no English? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew -maybe--I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the -store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and -'no'." That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I -remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little -shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very -poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not -paved. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how -she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like -that--completely meaningless conversation. - -And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand -what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your -husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to -sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry -or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection. - -And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little -while, Oswald, Lee appeared. - -Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before. - -Mr. JENNER. And he came in? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in. - -Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I -want to see how you are getting along." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to -Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign -accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable -fluency in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and -education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the -language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than -English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the -first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that -he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in -Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of -Minsk. He got me curious, you know. - -But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him -or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was -a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, -and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see -you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she -needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not -been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure. - -Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given -to the child? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly -side? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, -bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an -undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby -looked like Khrushchev. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the -story in your own words. - -Now, you had this visit, and you returned home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we -drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that -couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also -struck me as a very sympathetic fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your -first impression. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression -remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had -a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something -charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the -guy--that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble--with me he was -very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, -absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was -just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think -he liked me very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said. - -Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the -relations between Marina and Lee, I assume? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple--that they -were not getting along, right away. - -Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there. -You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the -couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was -not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving -husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and -so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in -talking to me than to her. That type of attitude. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with -him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially -when you asked something about him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main -characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in -Marina. And she remained quite often in the background. - -Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and -he would do the talking. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when -we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, -and Marina away from him later--you know that? - -Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself, -did you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things -develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, -from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very -often. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very -often. Maybe you didn't. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I -do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife -went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that -any more--to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought -her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take -her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw -Marina. Maybe a few days later. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the -Mellers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with -them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived -somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my -daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And -since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, -but about the same age--I don't remember how it happened, but either I -or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very -vague in my mind, what happened there. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George -Bouhe brought Marina to your home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some -dental care? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. That is located where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the -Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the -man who founded it. - -Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental -care gratis, or almost for nothing. - -George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way. - -Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either -for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything. - -Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time -losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at -the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was -working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker. - -Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company -was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that -was his version. Maybe he was fired. - -Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact? - -Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical -care? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina -where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such -injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She -didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She -is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. -Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And -what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, -did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or -the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life -as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. -That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind--you see what I -mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it -any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not -treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when -she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember -what her father's profession was. - -One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government -official, something like that--colonel or something like that. That I -remember she told me. - -And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and -graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, -which I also remember, in Minsk--the River Svisloch, which crosses the -whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and -in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, -and that is where the foreigners lived. - -She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. -And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met--I -remember they met at some dance--I think he was ill, something like -that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is -something I have a vague recollection of--that she took care of him, -and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she -said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she -desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in -that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream. - -It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of -apartments rather than of people. - -She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as -things go on. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him--I was -trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what -are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary -you get, what amusements you get. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of -$60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost -all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost -nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was -rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous. -Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between -them all the time--always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina -always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the -prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he -liked the conditions in Russia more than she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had -a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people -were interested in him, you see. That very often--he worked in a TV -factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the -United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was -that type of an individual who needed attention. - -Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than -he did--as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It -was a livable way of life. - -Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there -than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what -happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think -that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was -getting more and more things from people--people like the Clarks, like -ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so -on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses. - -Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses. - -When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded -with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in -Fort Worth and Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I -remember. She had a baby carriage. - -I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things -like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you say you carried her out and took her to the -Mellers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we -met them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did -you do it? - -That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George -Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an -introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there. -And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I -don't remember the name of the person who was there--some Texas lady -whom George Bouhe knew. - -And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even -spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is -probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to -Mr. Ballen's office--he has a reproduction business, a very large one -in Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Reproduction? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service. -When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they -print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large -business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in -Denver, Colorado. - -I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember -that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting. - -I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee -Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting -fellow." - -Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same -time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of -it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and -the baby? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already -moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall -who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary -Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both -drove to Fort Worth. - -I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no -car, they have no money--help them to move." - -I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for -a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this -address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He -had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember -that. - -Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. September of 1962? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time--about September. - -A little before that, I think, because in September we started the -campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of -them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that -this campaign started. - -Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, -they had already moved to Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had -moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had -returned back to her husband. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away -from her husband. Tell us how that occurred. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime. George Bouhe became completely -disgusted with Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because--I don't know exactly why--because he -liked Marina very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Bouhe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe--he is an elderly man. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To -him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed -help. And he really gave her money. He would give her $30, $40, I -think, all at once. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe -50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in -very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I -gave her even 50 cents. - -Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the -house. - -Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the -house to eat. - -Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away? - -Mr. JENNER. And why. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe started telling me that -"George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was -crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous." - -And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And -Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on. - -George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak -Cliff, because I didn't move them--it was my daughter who moved them, I -think. - -So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, -and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, -"Listen, you cannot do things like this." - -Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am -not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a -little later. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you -observed that she had a black eye? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so -forth. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it -was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been -beating me", but she said "I fight him back also." - -So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you." - -And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him." - -Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, there has to be something. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know. - -I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away -from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it -happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had -them in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do -things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the -few times that he was a little bit uppity with me. - -And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This -is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do -that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection. - -Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's -place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to -take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take -her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous -arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe -I called them. I don't remember exactly. - -Anyway, they were ready to receive her. - -And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her -dresses and I will break all the baby things." - -And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining -to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love -your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some -time, you better behave." - -I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police." - -I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other -people's affairs, after all. - -Well, he said, "I will get even with you." - -I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I -said, "I am going to take Marina anyway." - -So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things -out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was -small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual. - -After a little while he helped me to carry the things out. He -completely changed his mind. - -Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to -carry things. And we cleaned that house completely. - -We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded--everything was taken -out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other -part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days -later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and -said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina -is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous -character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening -Marina on the telephone." - -Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George -Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to -know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this -time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know -where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where -Marina is. - -Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our -apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the -Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is -to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the -telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was -very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the -fellow to do. - -I repeat again--I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And -this is--if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take -my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am -surprised that he didn't do something worse. - -I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a -dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else. - -Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now--Marina moved -to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her, -and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house--the name you -mentioned here before--a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas -something. - -Mr. JENNER. Ray? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall -that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs. -Ford to the house of the Rays. - -What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had -already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am -not 100 percent sure. - -I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little -bit later. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were -having? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her? - -The difficulties were this: She was--just incompatibility. They were -annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had -many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the -time--"Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why -don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, -and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the -time. Poor guy was going out of his mind. - -Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor -guy, he is doing his best. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I -mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her -physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just -once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather -crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative -strangers, as we were. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on -the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the -discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and -on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She--they -were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that -impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was -Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the -United States. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a definite---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not -recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me -that--that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him -go to the--back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport. -And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally -took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was -not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that -illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United -States Embassy. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you -that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to -the United States, and had taken some steps to do so? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell -you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him -to do so? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time -also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new -fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him. -And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing -again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back -to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear -to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly -interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to -leave. That I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not -interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED - -The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on -April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. -Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. -Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -(Having been previously duly sworn.) - -Mr. JENNER. On the record. - -Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then -recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandra, -then Mrs. Gary Taylor. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with -them, but never lived with them, as far as I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, -Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything -to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had -to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to -Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one -day. But I could not swear to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another -respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962, -"My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with -me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained -that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in -Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told -me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the -YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression -that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying -that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that -on my daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your -daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe -they did not. I just do not recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my -mind--completely--after the last time we saw them. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot -the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them. - -May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we -met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max -Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is -safe for us to help Oswald?" - -Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to -Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right -there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, -you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that -he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was -in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security -at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe -or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You -never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant. -But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were -alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am -not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to -have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on -behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia--G. Walter -Moore. He is a Government man--either FBI or Central Intelligence. A -very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was -some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI -in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government -man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my -stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there. -And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time -to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, because I think -he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to -our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting -person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident -occurred. - -Mr. JENNER. Which book? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one--the travelogue. One day we left -for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages, -some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip -and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, -supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1" -after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages, -No. 3, and so on and so forth. - -I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She -said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for -a while. - -In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of -a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in -my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took -photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just -could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went -to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us. -Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you -know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you -consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we -haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody -who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I -possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who -it was. And it is still a mystery to me. - -So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter -Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My -recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of -them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with -him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so -forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of -your lives, you see. This is one point. - -The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in -Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they -represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, -and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As -I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The -others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor -Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't -you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina -Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for -not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise -that question. But why didn't they want to meet them? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did -not want to meet them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew -something about Oswald, of some connection. - -Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any -chances. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that. - -Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with -them. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were -just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so -secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of -meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, -you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience -and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you -have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater -or lesser degree with a great variety of people. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether -Oswald was an agent of anybody? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am -I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you -concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you -why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too -outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were -an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea. - -Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very -freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They -explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of -a man. - -Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this -reasoning of yours. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was -a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. -All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was -rather sincere. - -Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were -shallow and surface? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. - -Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under -scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views -on the subject? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly -poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand -even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and -just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to -display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to -impress one. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used -them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh -at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, -for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping -for something. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of -reliability--that is, whether our Government would entrust him with -something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of -imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under -pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would -be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual, -mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What -government would give him any confidential work? No government would. -Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type. - -Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on -that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, unstability--his life is an example of -his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another, -and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, -tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of -adventure--like some other people would do in the United States, a new -job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome -deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was -discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is, -assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his -jobs. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion -on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth, -and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my -life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for -him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the -Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need -a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea. - -Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it -would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a -career in the Marines. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked -it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his -jobs, you see, but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at -them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to -evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as -to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was -reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack -of control of himself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took -his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and -his threats to his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the hell out of her. I -think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to -my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually -precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that? -Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But -now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her, -that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that -is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor -woman. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak -Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building. - -Mr. JENNER. Mercedes? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this -man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation -or situation. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason -that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He -would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and -a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend -people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And -he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is -just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that a moment. It gradually -developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their -curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at -the outset. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest -in him waned? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the fear? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual, -like George Bouhe--he was actually physically afraid of him. - -Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid -of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said, -"Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are." - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built, -athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally, -but George Bouhe was. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your -personality as I observe you testifying. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark -naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an -athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him, -and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was rude? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his -wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they -invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said, -"Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer -of that type. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too -much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man. - -Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively -uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service -record. What was your reaction to that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was -Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while. - -Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was -in Marina and not in Lee Oswald? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly -important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would -take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other -gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention -might be drawn to him and away from her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not---- - -Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to -think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember -any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an -egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but -I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any -particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina -would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for -Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you -about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did -you regard that as unusual? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told -Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, -and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are -going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child -and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it." -We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and -her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, -and they obviously still have those records. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap -phonograph, to play the records. - -Mr. JENNER. You gave them records? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records. - -Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not---- - -Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that -my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do. -But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee -would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if -he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people -gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see--she -would take anything from 5c up to anything. And the more the better. -But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude. -That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was -not a beggar, not a sponger. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him -developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the -Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a -greater or lesser degree? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. -It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could -not succeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did -you acquire this feeling? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human -nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You -see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks, -because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house -that the Clarks have--very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so -forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a -refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that, -like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new -convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just -to say so. But you can feel that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him -unintentionally with that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe--my impression -of him is that he is a direct man. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina -away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from -Oswald. That is a fact. - -Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away -from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take -Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with -George Bouhe--to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make -another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my -child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am -fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a -future. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina -acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English -because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I -do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember -distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife -learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part." - -Mr. JENNER. Very selfish. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in -the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that -is that she would return to Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think -that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the -United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you -never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion. -Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of -1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any -discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the -Russian Embassy to return to Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that. - -Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly -unaware of it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that, -never heard of that. What we learned, at that period--that she had her -child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong -objections. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina -doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child -christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me -that. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to -Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to -make application to the Russian Embassy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in -that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where -he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know -whether he had a liking or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like -human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way -of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but -my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice -to the poor--as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, -penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show -it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean. - -Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable -attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to -think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or -not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr. -Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking terms. - -Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very -fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a -little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to -something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup--trying to do -something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you -like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he -said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea. -To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I -laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And -it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he -was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point -of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived -when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. -And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area. I was -interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find -in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of -conversation went on sometimes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things -in which you were interested in the community, the countryside? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic -he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly -with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking. -He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest -which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought -a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about -the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory. - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because -these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not -too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after -the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political -meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for -an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a -thing I thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points -that is really hateful in a Communist country--the meetings after -work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the -engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting -after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And -I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks -that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he -hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated. - -Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew -there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some -of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United -States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as -a political ideal and his reactions to that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. -I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And -he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that, -because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just -the sound of that word is boring to me. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to -whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and -what he thought Communism was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but -knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was -not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute -nothing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except -for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary -remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes -to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again. - -Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he -was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, -the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he -called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible -than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch -for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had -some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got -him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you -can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we -lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the -Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from -my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met -some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and -that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what -goes on there." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his -meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his -youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had -some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of -thing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could -understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in -the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, -they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to -form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men -and women who have come from poverty? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald -because he knew it all. - -Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly -that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we -did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After -we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the -situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent -their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. -The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina -afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because -we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which Marina was. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any -place. That was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at -Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another -time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the -whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was -dying of boredom there. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was -that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's -Eve. - -Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of -days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was -still going strong. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of -days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of -one day and did not end until well into the next day. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was -a very friendly, very good party. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no -intimation of that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--on the contrary, they are very hospitable -people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is -why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, -so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing -that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred. - -Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse--his resentment. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. -She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could -lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade -her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so -bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap -her. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away -from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial -way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he -would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our -presence--when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke -nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked -to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal -person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very -little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I -remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was -tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy -was always under some kind of pressure. - -Mr. JENNER. You have that impression? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure. - -Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that -party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second -one as well in a moment. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. -Thomas Ray? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as -he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian -origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know, -in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came -from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely -different type of individual--the new blood. They were younger and they -were brought up in Soviet Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--displaced -persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, -and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of -them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different -background. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's -Day. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people. - -Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them. - -Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man -with grayish hair. - -Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair. - -Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would -recognize them if I saw them. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party -who had a very lavish house? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish -house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the -party. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the -party adjourned to the Jackson's house. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left. - -Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only -once--I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I -do not recall him. - -Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't -know who she is. - -Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her. - -Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her. - -Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to -some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet -Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to -ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared. - -Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very -nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and -that she left him. That is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my -wife--having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because -they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored -to death. And she said yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason -why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came -to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, -Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which -she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few -glasses. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the -party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their -own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by -bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was -an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl, -Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that -impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that. -She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at -Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some -people in the cotton business to take care of their babies. - -Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. -She eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and -became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas -by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the -party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest -in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started -talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable -because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so -overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told -us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, -she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or -twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald -is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again. -But---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something -on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in -which people---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko -incident, because she knows a little bit better. - -Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always -happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter -who they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members -at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to -them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people -to talk to. - -Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there -ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when -they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were -afraid he might be an agent of some kind? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little -bit about. - -I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the -people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that -told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I -thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists -are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to -talk to foreigners. - -We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian -exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there -in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect, -a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she -disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us. -She was scared of us. That is the usual thing. - -So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were -scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly -affecting his desire to return to the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I -think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him -and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet -Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you -leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not -not find what I was looking for." - -Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia. -And that does not exist any place. - -Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in -this world. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not -find it any place. - -Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false -image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we -knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible -murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been -unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization, -of course, now that you are thinking back. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia, -which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not -give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before -this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of -that nature? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you -see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that -he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that -he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him. - -Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with -him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself, -superficial? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know -that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in -New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low -category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type -of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he -mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started -going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself. -That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the -Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by -myself. I started studying it all by myself." - -Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did -not understand them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother -reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they -contain. - -Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that -is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very -difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that -they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had -said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you -overhear any of that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed -that notion to you, that he might go back? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to -my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a -better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go -back to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in -Russia"--I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually -better than here. But Marina never said that. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name -of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional -geologist for Continental Oil Co.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the -possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was -broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not -permit one of its agents to be that penniless? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I -certainly have not heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was -something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little -trouble in getting Marina out of Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out? - -Mr. JENNER. Relatively little. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a -big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them. -But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible -for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the -country. But I have known of other examples of it being done. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the -Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember -anything about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be -left handed but I could not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the -other on it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia -with respect to hunting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussions? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have -weapons when he was in Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in -weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, -I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. -I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in -shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any -impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover -that fully in the record. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the last time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them. - -Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime. - -Mr. JENNER. In April? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that -they had. - -Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous -place they used to live. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a -rabbit for Oswald's baby." - -Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter -Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, -but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date -exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked -up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the -door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed -you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we -have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. -We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while -Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which -I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the -window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are -you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All -of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, -George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed -it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still -standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, -and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight -on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And -Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So -frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, -you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?" - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like -target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are -you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled -to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General -Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I -knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance -and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, -you know. - -He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question. - -Mr. JENNER. He became tense? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer -anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a -peculiar face. - -Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not -say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember -after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large -bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us -the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist -on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main -thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that -question before. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for -integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting -him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights -as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very -strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on -that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I -do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends, -you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try -to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such -that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know -what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is -another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe -is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned -from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I -had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly -his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on -that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that -that was one of the reasons. - -And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very -sincere. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, -the Walker incident. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you -opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?" - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire -rifle incident? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could -I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have -said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing -there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just -as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very -distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?" - -The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? -I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But -if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that -he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for -General Walker? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some -conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period -of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your -testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the -Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know -a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about -the weapon thereafter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation, -the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence -after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not -believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my -part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. -But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid, -bad sense of humor, she says, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says -that I like to tease people. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and -I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is -perfectly all right if somebody teases me. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian -Club? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and -the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back -from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was -a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little -bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas -you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should -do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting -people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And -also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good -eating." And that is how the idea originated. - -Mr. JENNER. And you called it what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit -based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided -to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, -and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that -the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the -dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he -should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I -guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, -very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was -that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very -important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members. - -Mr. JENNER. On the subject. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or -presented in a provocative fashion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus -there, some very provocative discussions. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home -or restaurant that you supplied the meal? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech -that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White -Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against -Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet -General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the -Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he -was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large -group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided -me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I -think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson -who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German -concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov -soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody? - -Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember -that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused -me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He -accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my -opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their -opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. -Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they -were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was -all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident -because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and -I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that -occurred. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how -to drive and I was quite surprised---- - -Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to -drive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him -"Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an -automobile?" I remember saying. - -Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, -some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't -know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina -was needling him all the time to buy an automobile. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were -present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so -vague I could not recall the exact words, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I -might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have -put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas -without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely -isolated where they were living, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of that. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect -to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual -person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly -complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time -that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see -we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, -such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as -we were, see. - -Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first -period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we -knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and -I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of -them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about -sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in -them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I -mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him -that disgusted us. - -We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more -about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see. - -Mr. JENNER. Except for this party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came -and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is -Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were -completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, -and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again -to meet Everett Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that -we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. -No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one -afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing -them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a -retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife -are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people. - -Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her -that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring -them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we -brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you -know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away -from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he -immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, -and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think -he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine -Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So -it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral -left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a -while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again. - -Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think -Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. -Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to -my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to -that Christmas party did you enter their home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we -got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a -Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of -celebration but I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he -did or didn't believe in Christmas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. -Marina was naturally interested in Christmas. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to -your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw -them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and -12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say. - -Usually they were together. - -Mr. JENNER. She come alone? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his -coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident. - -Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause -before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and -stayed all day? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or -4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection -of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really -my mind was on something else, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to -the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, -and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by -bus." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better. -Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing -business, my business you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and -sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you -see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? -Goodbye." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that -better than I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, -testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came -for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as -cucumbers. George likes cucumbers." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my -wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in -charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is -possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the -doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. -I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long. - -Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you -weren't around. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife -will remember that, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember -the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because -they were hungry. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that -they were fed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with -respect to his family, his mother, his brothers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember -distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the -brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that -it was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and -it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a -little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy -you see. She wouldn't help anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with -anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby -you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you -know, around the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I -have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he -didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little -he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was -not discussed you know. - -He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he -disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina -disliked the mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any -exact words, but that is the impression I had. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they -had lived also with the mother as well as the brother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met -the mother and had a reaction to her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I -assumed that you knew. - -Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will -remember more than I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect -to his brother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with -his brother. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that -there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly -inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President -Nixon? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted -to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am -concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. - -Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some -discussions with him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once -I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you -know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very -attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought -that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial -problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed -with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, -full of energy, full of good ideas." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He -did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald -hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is -something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very -poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him -sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you -can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it -doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found -that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few -poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor -Connally? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not -familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge. - -Mr. JENNER. That is another subject. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never -discussed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the -assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable -discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that. - -Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the -subject that he had not had an honorable discharge? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I -was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this -dishonorable discharge or not. - -Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, -and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a -dishonorable discharge, after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to. - -Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia -Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party -at his home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met -them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly. - -Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection? - -Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At your home several times? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It could be? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she -was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even -this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with -Everett Glover, this couple. - -Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't -you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think -he declined that. - -Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; -at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who else was there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett -Glover's whose names I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer -Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology -who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. Magnolia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory. - -Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. He was present? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor. - -Mr. JENNER. And who else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who -lived right next door to us, to that party. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a -different party, but I have the impression that she was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Anybody else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I -forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names. - -Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth -Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. - -Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was -engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in -some sort of classical music singing. - -Mr. JENNER. Madrigal? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. Madrigal? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in -Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent -some time singing in the madrigal. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody -who was present? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if -you mention the names I will say yes or no. - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Alex? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there. - -Mr. JENNER. That is her husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband. - -You see, we showed our movie quite a few times. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night. - -Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't -identify them. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned -to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she -would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my -recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the -Oswalds? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not -recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our -trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not -interest Oswald at all. He was not interested. - -Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor -Oswald were interested. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither one? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would -appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, -not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At -least that was my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in -Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was -quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many -answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be -asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he -definitely was the center of attention that night. - -Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, -weren't there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, -and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship -developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; -you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as -far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw -her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and -attractive person. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald -attending that party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't -remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian -at the Magnolia Research Laboratory. - -Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, -who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate -at the time. I think he became a roommate later on. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you -think might be significant that you would like to tell us about? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you -leave before the party was over? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly -have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, -Everett brought them. - -Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not your party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to -their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in -particular the former government in Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, -you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very -intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, -and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it -was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in -front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to -Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement -or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak -Russian? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an -achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned -the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise -for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well -for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I -understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing. - -Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a -conversational command of the language. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina -would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between -them or something? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There -was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially -on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the -time. - -But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked -and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not -approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let -her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail -what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante -of Marina's, you see. I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a -woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, -in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to -correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you -see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to -learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you -see. - -Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had -confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a -woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. -She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. -And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was -fighting also. She would scratch him also. - -Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time? - -I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, -rather than mine. - -There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Without being taken? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred. - -Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we -were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign. - -I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to -see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, -somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's. - -Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a -friend of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish -extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he -worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex -Kleinlerer. That is the name. - -Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I -think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it. - -Mr. JENNER. Max Clark. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I -drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't -remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It -was a friendly visit to say how are you. - -Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this -was an occasion when Marina had left her husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which -you took Marina? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking -about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken -her to the Mellers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to -the Mellers. - -Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to -why Marina was there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to -Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall. - -Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that -Marina should leave their place. - -Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming -back or something like that, something to that effect. - -Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect. - -Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory -I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is -history for me, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in -your mind also. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. -Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about. - -Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a -broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. -So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what -happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion -with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any -religious feeling? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember -because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious -beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have -some sort of religious belief. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a -straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any -organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly -against religion as far as I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any -impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do -not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like -that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty -and freedom of the press? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of -the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to -understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free -speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the -great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in -individual freedoms. - -Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages -you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to -appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian -refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't -appreciate it. Not all of them. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life -in the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you -see, to discuss politics. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as -far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy -lunatic. Again he is talking about politics." - -This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very -intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as -you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to -read that he had written. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, -but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day -by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through -these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, -and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for -publication. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was -nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was -just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly -written, not particularly well. - -Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember -too well. I don't remember too well what was written there. - -Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission -Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if -it has the material he showed you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks -familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It -does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he -showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235: - -"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you -see. Again another sentence I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does -not look like the same document. - -Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document. - -Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. -This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," -with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald. - -I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description -of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," -"Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," -"Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout -of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective -Farms and Schools, Vacations." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I -remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have -attracted my attention. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your -attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part -to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the -Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, -starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going -to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is -something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you -had with him before his life in Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. This whole division? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As -I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this -document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar -to me. - -I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. -You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this -and comrade that, you see? - -But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions -of life of a worker. - -Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar. - -Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings. - -Mr. JENNER. That he did not like? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like. - -Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very---- - -Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is -the paper he showed you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something. - -Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to -me because I was interested in the town itself. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction -of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its -builders." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me -because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some -of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to -this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just -described them. What happened to this street and that street? - -He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, -you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, -you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same -paper I saw. - -Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention -to the city than I paid to something else. - -Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that -wasn't as long as that. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled -compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have -already identified, the first of which is at page 304. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look -familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page -312. It is a short one. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said -before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only -about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his -life. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten. - -Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance -through those, please? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen -before, because it has the name of General Walker in it. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not -the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not -political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the -TV factory. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell -her---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action? - -Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I -have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be -closer. - -If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or -find out where she is going to be. - -(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED - -The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m. - - -Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was -that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam -Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen -says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or -January 1963 at your home. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife -and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out -socially. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens -to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because -they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused. - -I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just -refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have -anything to do with them." - -Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your -home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or -might be helpful in his obtaining a job. - -Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned -yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is, -the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time, -because--I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he -was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still -have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help -them, you see. - -I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't -know that. - -All this is later, after we had already gone. - -So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems -to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, -when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to -Dallas--that was the time. - -Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but -it was some welding outfit. - -Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, -in November? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the -child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the -Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time. - -And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved -from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she -changed domiciles. - -And finally returned to Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you -took Marina from the home? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As having occurred---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In September. - -I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a -recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day--very -sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we -started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were -very busy. - -But it might have been in October. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her -home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her -husband? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I -think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at -Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in -succession. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she -made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you -took her? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we -took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that -we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to -another, I do not know. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods--one period -that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then -another period when she left the home, herself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would -fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second -time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were -busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at -the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and -didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds. - -October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, -November, December. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to -whether she was at that February 1963 party? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name -MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I -remember her. - -Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls -when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, -and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like -your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them." - -And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over -to Anna Meller's house with the baby. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it. - -Mr. JENNER. She was there a week. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there -for the second time, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all -the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded. -You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in -Haiti today. - -We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load -and unload and carry them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did. - -Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is -expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all -this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a -person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I -am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of -the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was. - -But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in -the Russian colony. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe -he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian -blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an -internationalist, American. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he -had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not -say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, -with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on -in his head. - -But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be. - -But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the -only one who remained our friend." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed -themselves. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, -nothing. We just were too busy to be with them--period. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other -people now. - -As you related this morning, they began to withdraw. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we -withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them -at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them -again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all. - -Then we saw them the last time for Easter. - -I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that. - -What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always -quite hospitable. - -Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never -saw anybody else there in the house. - -I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by -kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have -talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them -because--well, let me put it this way. - -He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice -versa. - -But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved -in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of -them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has -never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left -it. So to me it doesn't mean very much. - -I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the -impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools -for having left Russia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that. - -Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the -impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked -money, and everything was measured by money? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but -you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of -them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making -scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?" - -But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him. - -Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged -to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees -called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas -belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being -interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is -a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine -of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet -Union for them, and all that sort of thing. - -It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is -in Germany. - -That is about all I know about them. - -Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on -your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember -during what period--and came quite often to the meetings. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite -a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, -where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the -Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But -I never noticed anything in particular. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that -group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president -of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it. - -Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. -Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they -invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't -remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody -in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a -theory, a Marxist theory, for himself. - -In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he -had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up -a doctrine in his head. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that -Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said -that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the -United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds -around to their house? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, -either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they -didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually -were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular -case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they -didn't want to meet them. - -I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see -them. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you -indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the -Soviet system of government? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like -that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful -coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each -other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. -Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate -atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever -invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a -top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas -invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that. - -Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period. - -Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 -months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether -it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University -of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled -"Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic -dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall -even what I had written there. - -Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based -on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is -what I would write at that time and that age. - -Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad -Russian? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite -often. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet -of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King -of Bananas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of -Bananas. At least I called him that. - -I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo -Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked -about him recently. - -Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your -own judgment of yourself? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call -me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like -to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you -pass the limit it is too much. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday -to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your -recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite -often--mainly to see my clients there. - -Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to -see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the -social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there, -a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else--I don't recall -the name. - -Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push -forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise -some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on -that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that -purpose--purely for business. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an -artist? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter. - -Mr. JENNER. Christiana? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter -were living in Dallas with you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as -an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition -to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Switzerland? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark. - -Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that -you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't -have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, -visiting some distant relatives there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called -true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions? - -Mr. JENNER. Arguments? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The -real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with -the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very -strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this -Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I -told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United -States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased -in their opinions. - -Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and -without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United -States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them -the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how -joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to -them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them -it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like -me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, -it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all -that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when -it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small -syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to -them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I -think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to -me from there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, -did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, -Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on -geological visits? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that, -and it did not materialize. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at -the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960? - -Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your -passport being renewed on March 11? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. -Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to -Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana. - -I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she -remembers the dates. - -I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little -boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning -to. But my wife will remember all that. - -Mr. JENNER. So we can identify you as far as these papers are -concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white -male, 6'1" tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a -scar on your face? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, -I think you can see. - -Mr. JENNER. Right-hand cheek? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my -childhood. And this one is a new one--I got it in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near -your hairline? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You suffered that in Yugoslavia? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head--had a -few stitches taken. - -Mr. JENNER. And your---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, I may say--my wife reminded me of it -today--regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast -Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941--of course, which I was not doing, -because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in -Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought -I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also -making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us. - -Mr. JENNER. Shot? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shot. And they told me to get away--we were in -a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were -hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea. -So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of -an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation--that -I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I -should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is -he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he -came to this country in the early twenties. - -Mr. JENNER. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in -the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is -located. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale. - -Mr. JENNER. Do those facts square with your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember -he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee--they were roommates. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and -was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to -this country. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; before I came back for the first time to -this country. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to -arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but -arranged my permit. - -Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate -that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit -Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his -family, and collecting material for magazine articles. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about the right time when I first saw him -after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in -Poland. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at -Yale, had he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know what year he completed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he take some additional---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't -know what year he received his Ph. D. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ph. D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can -get away from teaching. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is a Ph. D. and a professor at Dartmouth College? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College. - -Mr. JENNER. Hanover, N.H.? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian -Review, a magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't he found that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he founded that magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. And what does he teach at Dartmouth? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he is a professor of Russian culture, -Russian civilization, history. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--is this a description of him: He is a white -male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes. - -Mr. JENNER. Unlike yours, that are blue? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He is browneyed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he -didn't know that we were in Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither knew that the other was? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in -the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your brother have a mustache? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have -grown it lately. - -Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't -she--Romeyn? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons. - -Mr. JENNER. She was born April 17--December 25, 1943. We brought that -out yesterday. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Christmas Day. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone -Fleischer--Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her -stepfather--Walter Washington Stecker. - -Mr. JENNER. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted -by Walter Washington? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1958, Dominican Embassy? - -Mr. JENNER. The month of April. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think I was invited to--Dominican Embassy. -Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Washington? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of -concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried -to contact the Dominican Ambassador--purely for business reasons--some -kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the -last--let's say the last 6 months? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in -March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian -Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between -planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right -connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would -stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next -morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican -Republic? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there. - -Mr. JENNER. When next were you there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes; -we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the -same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night. - -Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, -on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in -1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check -on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau -of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and -then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican -Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And -then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there. - -Mr. JENNER. On this present trip? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican -Republic? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember -now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody -told me--I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist -in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and -never was able to see him. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, -that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between -Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought -nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement. -I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement. - -Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the -President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I -could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him -for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, -again, it is purely speculation on our part. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I -have to pursue it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no -other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two -together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you -see--especially I remember reading in one of the papers that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign -language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get -Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one -of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife -before the assassination that he was going to get some money. - -Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started -coming--arising in my imagination. - -Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to -Marina that he was going to get some money from some source? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in -dismal poverty. - -Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you -went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you -exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just -packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from -Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States, -saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost -that card. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in -December of 1963? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a -letter to her. - -Mr. JENNER. From where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the -death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since -we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the -misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime -last fall." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and -especially his wife Marina? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it -is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President -of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we -still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us -no end of difficulty, from every point of view. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the -situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that -is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, -actually,---- - -Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? -What was wrong with what you did? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were -charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion -he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing -of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair -statement? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I -have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and -I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was -mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and -sickly." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we -heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their -miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the -character." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him -seriously." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right. - -Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian -refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to -her husband." You have told me about that course of events. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes -occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy -for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, -and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady -characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions -should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two -sentences. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the -President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely -jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, -attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and -was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had -nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in -everything he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a -way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own -bootstraps? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it -made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he -was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a -mental blackout. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have -been taken." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better -precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at -the time to protect the President. - -Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very -first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the -assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in -the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and -he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, -Lee, Lee--and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?" - -And he said, "I guess that is the name." - -Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me. - -Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it -occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the -rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the -Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were -driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy -and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some -association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a -gun there. - -But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read -and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, -and out of contact with events. - -The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers. - -Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and -naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him. - -Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from -somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place--he was -getting regular checks. - -Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place. - -Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me -to make any conclusions. - -Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December -12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper -articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the -letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have -any of your handwriting on it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed. - -Mr. JENNER. Typed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that -letter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, -this letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your -sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. -Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has -two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the -stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a -lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his -judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his -judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my -testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly -because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. -That is why I have the doubts. - -Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the -things you have told me about in this long examination? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any -humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering -anybody else? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering -doubts? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been -involved? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information -of anybody else being involved? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No information. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what -you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read -foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald -did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was--that -somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the -bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and -all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the -colony of foreigners--Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti, -most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in -the papers they receive from their homeland? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are -sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that -subject. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that -you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what? - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the -other. - -Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss -was not intended to imply that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on -whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to -say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life. - -Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, -which I assume you will. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck. - -Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February -2, 1964? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those -as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the -letter was enclosed? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written. - -Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us -about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in -1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people -connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti. - -I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the -northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a -company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the -Cuban situation. - -In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of -the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time -then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the -Central American countries? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project -from then on. - -Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for -Haiti--at the end of May 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, -did you not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington -preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the -people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were -attempting to interest? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a -Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting -this contract. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt -Exhibit No. 1." - -(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" -for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued -in connection with the Haiti venture. - -Am I correct about that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by -reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the -right? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent -success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is a headline? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that? - -Mr. JENNER. I would prefer--can you translate that literally? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America -by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general -of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent -success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now. - -"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant -mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph -Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, -who was at that time in Europe. - -"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard -Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and -the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles -has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The -active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti -has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest -financial companies in New York which does business in the millions -of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the -Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to -the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial -Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer -periods. - -"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate -business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start -through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of -construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years. - -"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will -be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country -will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting -contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president -and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for -Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which -will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial -Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti." - -Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading -that you described. - -Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city -of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of -the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday -morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New -York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the -Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, -New York. - -"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient -time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants -to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which -he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his -commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the -city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key -of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles." - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper. - -Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper -in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram. - -Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion -literature with respect to your Haitian venture? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible -investor with the personalities involved. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his first name? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and -you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian -Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard -Joseph Charles? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify -as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of -correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you -transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received. - -(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt -Exhibit No. 2" for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first -sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in -your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas. - -The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. -Raigorodsky; is that correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, -dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in -your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky." - -Is what I have said correct? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one -sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum -Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, -Dallas 1, Tex. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have -given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6." - -(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, -5, and 6" for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to -Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one -a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, -from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of -yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; -dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes -of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De -Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16." - -(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and -16" for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some -additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three -documents. - -The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in -the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul -Raigorodsky. - -The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten -signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt." - -Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You -transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also -enclose the third document, which is a diagram of---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand -"Credits available for these industries--George De M., Dallas, -September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which -you--excuse me. - -Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified -as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10. - -(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, -and 10" for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De -Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11. - -(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" -for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of -Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available -to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is -it not? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not -elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the -upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an -arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts." - -Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three -lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the -word "Caracol." Read those words. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant -there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." -And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands -encircled, there appears more writing. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities." - -Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have -you explain it all later. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at -the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have -already identified in the record. - -Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions -we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between -the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center -of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the -area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is -some writing. What is that? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the -bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow -pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of -the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an -area, the chief town of which appears to be what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is written there? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on -there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about -your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in -some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous -work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in -the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961. - -I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which-- - -Mr. JENNER. Of what country? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity -to present a geological survey of Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and -all the mineralogical points of the whole country. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a -legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to -you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral -deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who -might be willing to risk their capital to develop it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business -promotional project. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in -any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great -care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or -group? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps, -and no other project, except our own commercial and geological -project--nothing else. - -Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision -by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here -in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are -officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey. - -On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and -on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. -He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his -maps, and we pursue our own work there. - -I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian -geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the -equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss -assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now, -recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his -family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him. - -I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, -an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and -geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have -geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian -Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay -$20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the -sisal plantation at Mont Rouis. - -This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. -Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now -Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, -and I am pursuing my geological work. - -Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because -I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the -project, and its good faith. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be -sufficiently justified in good faith. - -Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which -you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually -participate in various enterprises which may come out of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Such as? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries, -development of oil production, development of new hotels and new -resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I -think has excellent opportunities for American investments. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you -not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in -connection with the assassination of the President? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away -from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would -do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there -are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at -targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, -you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to -jail, but sent away from the town. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind. - -Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, -and he was target practicing with it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that -knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I -think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have -known. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not -know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's -attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel---- - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information. - -Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they -should have done what? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have--in my opinion, they -shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1. - -And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even -knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent -character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from -the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New -Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should -have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated -February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt -Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively? - -(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 -and 13," for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and -its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, -respectively. - -(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 -and 15," for identification.) - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made -official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed -by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating -that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the -consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, -originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. -Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on -sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the -duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I -think that will explain it. - -Mr. JENNER. Fine. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project, -because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort. - -Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De -Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his -letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss. - -Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to -read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might -want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of -the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it. - -It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct. - -"Dear George: - -"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please -accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you. - -"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew -Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world." - -Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the -words "It seems." - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I -imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington -again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to -meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my -warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy." - -Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I -hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer. - -"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss." - -Mr. JENNER. Dated? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas -card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, -Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph? - -Mr. JENNER. The whole card. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes -for 1964, George and Jeanne De M. - -"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. -Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We -are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas. - -"George." - -Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the -crimes in Dallas"? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President -and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the -assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one -after another. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the -flesh? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Did you know him when you were in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him -when you were in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took -place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything -occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or -indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to -you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, -that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you -to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he did not join? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that. - -Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an -opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any -business advantage. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite -a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of -Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of -the whole project. It may be all for the best. - -Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of -Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily -to the--what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting -forth the background of information on a holding company that you were -developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company." - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962." - -Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have -just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many -other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and -people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti. - -I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development -of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil -possibilities. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the -record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything -that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions -which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is -pertinent and should be brought out? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any. - -Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you -this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful -investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think -is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important -work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you -could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much -as you can? - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at -some inconvenience? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, -I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this -country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here -for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly -personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been -personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read -your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that -you would like to read it over. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very -hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have -said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very -much. It is all right as far as I am concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive -the necessity of reading and signing? - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Fine. - -Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might -have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability. - -Mr. JENNER. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow. - -If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you -don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it. - -I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De -Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT - -The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 4:45 p.m., on -April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. -Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but -the truth, in the course of your deposition which I am about to take? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. George S. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why "S"? The "S" doesn't belong there at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he acknowledged that it does. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. S? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Sergei. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a brother by the same name Sergei, and he -had a son by the name Sergei. Maybe he wants to add the letter to our -name. - -Mr. JENNER. No. It shows in the records for many, many years. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never knew that. Sergei is his father's -name--that is what it is. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a brother whose name is Sergei, do you not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Sergei Michail Fomenko. - -Give me your full maiden name. Your name as you were born and given to -you by your parents. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name will be Eugenia. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have no middle name. Just Fomenko. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother's name was Tatiana? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Tatiana. My father, Michail. - -Mr. JENNER. And your father was Michail L.? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is for--his father was Lev. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born in China? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Our information is it was at Harbin. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the nearest town? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nearest town to what? - -Mr. JENNER. Harbin. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not--I cannot say. - -Mr. JENNER. What part of China? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is Manchuria. The northern part of China, -close to the Siberian border. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the Russian-Chinese border? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a sister? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall, we had a--we had three -portraits in the house, of children--my portrait, my brother's -portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. And the -portrait--she was about 3 or 4 years old. I don't know how, where did -they get that idea, or was I actually told--but she is supposed to be -my half-sister--Alexandra her name was supposed to be. And I think my -father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they -don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. We have never -had any curiosity about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a naturalized citizen of this Nation, are you not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you naturalized on April 6, 1936? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--couldn't. I came here in 1938. How could you -possibly get that? - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I am misadvised. I was looking at the wrong -thing. You were naturalized when? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was 1945, but I cannot be -absolutely sure. I have my papers in the hotel. 1944 or 1945, maybe it -is 1944. If you want the exact date, I can easily get it for you. Do -you actually have information, naturalized in 1936? - -Mr. JENNER. No, I don't. I have your immigration record here. I will -find it in a moment. You became a U.S. citizen in proceedings in the -U.S. district court, in New York City, February 28, 1945. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1945. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you born on May 5, 1914? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Your parents, were they Russian citizens? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father took a Chinese passport, and I cannot -tell you whether he already had it when I was born, or whether he took -one later. But I believe he took one later. He took probably one later, -when they sold the railroad to the Reds, you know. That is when he took -the Chinese passport. - -Mr. JENNER. He was born in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother was born in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To my knowledge, yes. They were living a few -years in China before I was born. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in what business or occupation or government service -was your father engaged? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was in charge of the Far Eastern -railroad. - -Mr. JENNER. For what country? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For China. He was working directly with the -Chinese Government and with Chinese officials, with Chinese people. And -then in 1925, when the Chinese sold the railroad---- - -Mr. JENNER. When what? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1925, the Chinese people sold the railroad -to the Russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the -Trans-Siberian Railroad. My father resigned. And he received quite a -lot of money from that. He had been in the service for quite a few -years. - -Mr. JENNER. You were 11 years old then? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1925; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of this event? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I knew about that. I cannot tell -you--that is recollections of the past. And he started to build another -railroad on his own called HoHi Railroad. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -You came to this country on August 4, 1938. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right; San Francisco. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, your father, as you said, was director of a -Chinese Eastern railroad. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I was looking for some papers here. The Chinese sold the -railroad to Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in 1925? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is how I understood it. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, your father ceased at that time to be -director of the Chinese Eastern Railroad. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He resigned, and in fact we were -planning to come to the United States, the whole family. We wanted to -come to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just because it is not our country to live there -forever. We were brought up with white people, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to -the Russians? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because from what I know they wanted him to take -a Communist passport, and he refused. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is from what I know he is supposed to have -Chinese passport. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. He was--not the -chief, but the elderly friend for the Scouts. We had a wonderful Scout -organization, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. He was very, very active -in that. He was sort of like a patron for it. We have a marvelous -organization in China. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in the world -yet--how well it was conducted. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father eventually? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We never could, since 1941, right after Pearl -Harbor---- - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After Pearl Harbor, we didn't have any -communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. We tried to check -through the Red Cross and find out. Nothing could be done. We just -couldn't find out. Whenever I saw some people that returned from China, -came over, and whenever I asked them what happened to my parents, did -you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't -know, they just disappeared. Then in 1957, when I saw my brother, he -told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in 1945 and -he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. Father was -killed by the Communists. - -Mr. JENNER. Which Communists? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know which ones--the Chinese -or Reds or Japanese--I don't know who. And he was taken on the -railroad--that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere -and shoot you. And my brother told me he died in 1941. I don't know how -he found out. I assume and I think that the American government helped -him, because he is in rather secret work. He could not possibly do it, -having parents---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is your brother who lives out in California? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you eventually--before you came to the United States, -were you married? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was married to my first husband. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you marry in China? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the name of your first husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He had a few first names, and to tell you the -truth I don't know which one is the right one. I cannot say. Because -half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called -him by the other name. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name was Valentin, and the second one -was Bob--they called him Bob. So which one is right, I don't know. But -I liked Bob better. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his last name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His last name was Bogoiavlensky. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were married when? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we were married in 1932, in the fall. - -Mr. JENNER. In what business or profession was your husband engaged -when you were married? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, at the time when we were married, he -was--we were both working, making designs and constructions--making -plans and building houses together. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you associated in business? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't exactly business. I don't know--it -is not done like it is done in the United States. We just knew how to -build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had -the project--somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we -would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with -contractors and had the building constructed. And then I believe he was -also working in the--the Japanese were building their airport. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Harbin. And he was helping and surveying -the grounds or something. This I don't know, because I wasn't -present--something on this order. And that is what really actually made -us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the Japanese started to -grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants. -They wanted to keep everything very, very secret. So quite a few of our -friends just disappeared overnight. - -And then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already, -completely beaten to a pulp and so on. Quite a few things started to -go on. And then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that -we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said -we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. We took -a train and went south, and went to Shanghai, and lived in Shanghai, -until we were ready to come to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were in China, were you and your husband--did you -engage as a dancing team? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was dancing quite well. - -You see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job -somewhere. So he was helping me. He helped me as a partner. And I -danced a solo. - -We did that in Tientsin. And then Shanghai. - -Mr. JENNER. And in order to support yourselves---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were a dancing team. - -You see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were -doing very well really. Fate does strange things to you--throws you -from one profession to another. You think it is the greatest tragedy--I -will tell you later what happened to me--and it is the best, actually. - -So it was working out very well. We were quite successful. And then -something happened later. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you change your name at this period of your life? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We changed the name when we started dancing. - -Mr. JENNER. And you changed your name to what? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. LeGon. We picked up the name out of the -dancing magazine. But with this name--you see how it happens. You -get so involved that you have to stick to it. You cannot just--you -knew--because some people know you by this name, then you start with -another name, and it sounds ridiculous. But since then already we had -it. And we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it, -because personally I don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is -not fair for the country to use a name like Bogoiavlensky, or a name -like De Mohrenschildt. If it would be up to me, I would cut the other -one down. - -It took me 3 months to learn to pronounce that name. - -Mr. JENNER. There have been some people that because of the name -LeGon--that you had some French. You are not French? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, I will tell you. I had to start in New York -to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had -terrible trouble to get any kind of work. He was making $18 a week. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1938? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was 1940, 1941, when my little girl was -born. - -Mr. JENNER. Your daughter was born in this country? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your daughter's name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why I could not dance any more. I had to -drop completely dancing and everything. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned your daughter, let's cover her. - -What was her given name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her given name was Jeanne Elinor LeGon. Also -after a dancer. - -Mr. JENNER. Eleanor Powell? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, exactly. And being unaware--you see, in -Europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second -one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case. - -In the States the last name is the one that counts--the previous names -don't mean much. - -So when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a -legal paper of changing our name to LeGon. So in her birth certificate -I put down Jeanne Elinor LeGon and just in case, Bogoiavlensky, so just -in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown -somewhere--I was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be -put out of the country or something--she was born here, and that is her -name, and I put that Bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate. - -And that started the whole uproar. - -And besides--I lost her birth certificate once when I needed it for a -passport--I could not find it, because I was looking under "L"--I told -them to look under "L". And for months they were looking under "L" and -then it dawned on me, did I put, by any chance, Bogoiavlensky. - -So they filed it under "B". - -Well, it is my own fault--I asked for it. I can't get rid of that name. - -It is a pretty name. In fact, it is a very novel name. But I don't -think it belongs in this country. I think it is ridiculous for people -to have such long names. If you are a priest's family, that would be -fine. But not for us. - -Mr. JENNER. When was your daughter born? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She mas born April 30, 1941. - -Mr. JENNER. I might go back with your husband. - -Where was your husband born, your first husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, he was born in--I think in -Russia--and brought out as a very, very little boy. And I never met his -father. His mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. I only -knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful. - -He had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in -the war with China and Japan. We never could find them. One of them -was with the British forces and another with the French forces. And -I understand one was sent to Hong Kong, and the other remained in -Shanghai. And we never heard from them. - -So that is one of the really big tragedies. We were anxious to find -them, because we were going to get them over here. They had good heads. -They could grow up very fine. - -Mr. JENNER. You have always regarded the United States as a haven? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. It was the country by choice, -because we could have gone to Europe. But I didn't want anything--this -was from so and so. I said I wanted to have a country where everything -is new and fresh, and if I break something I go to the store and buy -another one. - -I never have anything you can break. It was just because I was brought -up with furniture with little gilded things in it, I don't want any -part of it. I have been in Europe about 15 times after. - -Mr. JENNER. I know you have. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I enjoy being there for a few weeks. But I -would never live in Europe. I would not be happy. - -If I had to, I would live there, but I don't like--the whole atmosphere -doesn't appeal to me. - -Mr. JENNER. There have been various reports on your views with respect -to Russia and communism. - -What are your views? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I am? - -Mr. JENNER. What are your views? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My views? - -Well, I tell you. I am not a Communist by all means at all. I think -that revolution in Russia was inevitable. It is just horrible that it -happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people---- - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about the revolution of the 1920's? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. 1918, 1919. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, 1918--that is when it started. I know in -fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never -any conversation--too many people were killed. In fact, from what I -understand, all the families of my father and mother were killed, too. -So we never had any conversation about it. We just were kept away from -the whole thing. - -And, beside, I deliberately stayed away from all of that. I said it is -none of my business, I have never been there, I don't know what it is -all about, I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be -prejudiced to anything. - -But after, later on, when I grew up and the revolution was necessary, -it is just too bad it happened like that. - -And I do hope that the country eventually will come out and become -human again, and I think it is getting to be more and more human. - -But it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have. -That was the most wonderful thing. When I came here--unfortunately, I -landed in New York. I didn't want to, but my brother was in New York -and he said you come right away to New York. - -I love California, because of the climate. I like sunshine. So I came -to New York, and New York, of course, was very depressing to me, -because it was dirty. And I had an idea that all the white countries -and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed -to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. They are -supposed to be well mannered. - -And then I came in in that awful New York. And, of course, I had almost -no money. I had to use subways. It was very, very bad. - -But then I saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering -of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying -anything he wants to. And I said, what is going on? They said he is -just saying something--I forgot what it was all about. But how people -were talking freely and expressing themselves openly. - -Mr. JENNER. They had a right to do that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; And in China--you see, we were always--we -never could say anything openly, for many reasons. - -First, I don't know, but I assume there was a lot of Red spies probably -everywhere. So we could never say too much. - -Then there were Japanese that came over. We couldn't say anything again. - -So we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you -never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will -happen to you. That is the atmosphere that I was brought up in. - -I wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because -sometimes he says things--of course, being European, he likes to see -Russia. - -I said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for 2 days, -you would be shot in 2 days. He doesn't feel that there is a place, -places that you cannot be like he is. You just cannot do it. Maybe -that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he -wants to say, and people misinterpret it. People misinterpret it, and -then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else, -and then they say he says something bad. This is really terrible. This -is many, many times, you know. But he learned his lesson now. Living -in Haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with Papa Doc. You know the -regime there now. He is quite a dictator. He is going to be pronounced -the king now, at the end of May. And, of course, there is tremendous -opposition against it. It is not for our sake, but for our Haitian -friends' sake, we cannot say anything. - -So he learned a little bit of the atmosphere where you cannot talk. - -He said--"I am so glad we went to Haiti, because I have no desire to go -to Russia." - -That was wonderful. It was music to my ears. - -I said, "Now, you learn." - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But some day I hope, anyway. I would like to see -it. I would like to go down south to the Crimea which I understand is -beautiful, the Black Sea. I would like to see all the world. - -I saw quite a lot. - -But I would like to see that, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother, Sergei, he came over to this country, did he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What? - -Mr. JENNER. Don't you have a brother by the name of---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he what? - -Mr. JENNER. He came to this country? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. I believe he came in 1930. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is still here? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where is he located now? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is in Woodland Hills, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. Engaged in---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is 4560 Deseret Drive. - -He is with North American Aircraft Co. He just switched. He was with -Ramo Wooldridge. A few years before that he was with Linnet Co. in -Beverly Hills, and before that with Howard Hughes, and before that he -was with Berkeley, University at Berkeley, doing some research. - -Mr. JENNER. He attended the University of Chicago? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He attended after the war. But he originally -came over to study in Berkeley. He graduated from Berkeley. But then -when the war broke out he volunteered--he was 2-1/2 years in service. -But he was never sent over, because he did so much important research -work, that they kept him here. - -And he met Professor Rasby of Chicago University. And then he went to -work with him in Chicago University for very, very little money, but he -had all the facilities for his work. That is where he met his second -wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, I hope. Four -little kinds, darling home. - -Mr. JENNER. And you eventually were divorced from your first husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He retained the name Robert LeGon? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't change his name back to Bogoiavlensky? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -By the way, do you know he is in a rest home? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a lot of unpleasantness around in that -time, because he was already going off completely. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced from him in the summer of 1959? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no, no; before that. It was 1957, spring of -1957. Yes; it was in the spring of 1957. - -I believe it was first of May or something. I don't remember exactly. -But it is pretty close. - -Mr. JENNER. And you married your present husband, George De -Mohrenschildt, in the summer of 1959? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1959, yes; in June, towards the end of June. - -Mr. JENNER. And your daughter who was born to you in New York City---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Manhattan Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. She was--her given name was---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jeanne Elinor LeGon. - -Mr. JENNER. And she changed her name to Christiana? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her father did it. She was just a youngster. - -You know what happened to him mentally. He went completely--I don't -know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them, -maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's -name or something. But for a particular reason he didn't take it -himself, but he put it--insisted that my daughter will take the name. - -Mr. JENNER. What name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bogoiavlensky--and drop the LeGon. And she -was baptized--she was brought up as Episcopalian. I never baptized -her, because I wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew -up. I know too many people who have too many difficulties later when -they find out they want something else. By the time she was baptized -she liked the name Christiana and she took that name. And he changed -her name to Bogoiavlensky again. So it was very, very unpleasant and -horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing -you of being a Communist? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if you have a letter, I wish -I would have a letter what he did. You see I had charge accounts -throughout the country, because I was making very good money. Lord and -Taylor, Saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. And when that -happened, I actually told him that is the end, I am divorcing you, and -that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent -out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the -department stores, including Niemans, and I believe Niemans showed me -the letter, and there was a Golden Pheasant Restaurant--they showed me -the letter--that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that -Eugenia Fomenko Bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is--almost putting that -I am a spy, and God knows what in it, and that he is not responsible -for my debts, for my accounts. - -It was 1957, and since 1941 I was the one that made all the money in -the family. I was the one making all these things, bringing up my -child. So that was horrible. That is not all. He sent letters, and he -signed "FBI"--make believe they are from the FBI. He sent to all my -people in New York, firms that I work with, that also I am a spy or -something, this and that, horrible. - -And I was in Europe that summer. And a friend of mine came over and -said, "What is the matter with you?" She said, "What happened to you? -The FBI are looking for you." - -I said, "Are you kidding me?" - -She said "No;" one of the manufacturers showed her the letter. - -I said, "For God sakes, this is ridiculous, I never heard of such a -thing." - -So when I come back to New York I right away went to see all of them. - -They said, some were laughing about it. But some I know they had a -little something behind their heads. - -Mr. JENNER. They were worried? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that, -already set people thinking. And do you know that I could not get a job -in New York, just because of that? And, fortunately, being in Texas, I -switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and I had two jobs in no -time in that market. - -And I was able to get--I lost my job in Texas while I was in Europe -because of that. - -He sent that to my employer. - -I never told that--I don't know if my present husband knows it--because -that would really kill him, a thing like that. - -But it was eventually straightened out. But I was actually out, I -couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, I had to -send her money. I had nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was she attending a university? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. UCLA. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1957. Fall of 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to live with you right after she -was---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came over for summer. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1957? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I will tell you. It is really a very tragic -thing. I knew I should have dropped this when she was 6 years old, -because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. But we just -had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things. -And he just could not adapt himself to the country. - -I know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost. -Whatever we had, it is never the same. It never was good enough. Our -daughter would never have what we had in childhood. - -He was from a very wealthy family, and, fortunately, I was, too. - -I said, "For goodness sakes, who cares? We are alive. How many people -are dead already? We are here. It is a new country. We will make what -we want to make out of it." - -I started from $25 a week. And in New York I was making $1,100 a week. -That is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it, -and you work. And if you don't have a negative attitude. - -But he could not. Even when we had a nice home in California, with -beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see Catalina Island and -everything. He said, "No; at our house we had 30 people for dinner -every day." It is awful. He never could get adjusted to it. - -Mr. JENNER. But he wasn't earning a living, was he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he wasn't. He was always--you see, I -understand from talking to doctors--he was off for quite a while, which -I didn't know. I didn't know it. And it never occurred to me. We were -brought up maybe 200 years set back. This was the husband, and that is -the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it -is that is how it is going to stay. So it never occurred to me there -could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. In fact, my -brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find -out why he should have such an attitude, but I laughed at my brother. - -Unfortunately, maybe I should have listened to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit--you came to this country. Did you and -your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were supposed to. We had auditions with Moss -and Hart, very successful. And we were almost ready to have a contract -in the Rainbow Room. And then I became pregnant with my little girl. -And that really shattered us to pieces. We are awfully happy to have -a child, but that was not the time to have the child. We had to leave -everything in China, because we had to cross all Japan. So that was--at -the time it was just like a tragedy. And after she was born, I could -never dance. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, after the birth of your daughter, did you--what did -you do to sustain your family? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I stayed home for 1 year. We just lived on -whatever he made. Because I wanted to bring her up--I don't believe in -nurses. I like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in -whatever a little baby should be trained. - -And then if he could possibly make a little better, I would not go to -work. - -But then I saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and -more depressed, and is getting worse. He just didn't care. He had that -attitude, "I don't care." I said if that is his attitude, if I don't do -something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. So I started to -think. What could I do? I spoke English, but crazy pigeon English. - -I couldn't do anything architecturally, because I don't know the -terminology. I can automatically make the drawings, but I would not be -able to render it. It would be impossible for me to have anything. - -And then actually, without knowing anything, I became a model. I had -two lessons, and I pretended that I was very experienced. I fooled -everybody. And I somehow got a job as a model. - -And then--at one place it didn't work out, because it was very -depressing and horrible atmosphere. On Seventh Avenue it is no joke. - -Mr. JENNER. My daughter is a model. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably with a good firm. - -I have a couple of firms that are fantastic. And then I switched to -Leeds Ltd. And within 1 year, from modeling, from 25, I became in -charge of the showroom. I was selling, I was selecting fabrics, and -became a stylist. - -And then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and I have -been with them for 7 years. - -But to start with, I worked 7 days a week. I worked even Sunday, until -1 o'clock--that is how hard I worked. - -And the very same firm paid me in 1957 to design a collection for them, -the same clothes I did 10 years ago--$500 for 5 days, for 4-1/2 days. -So you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. Only in the -United States. - -Mr. JENNER. A country of opportunity. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you want to. - -That is what Marina--that is why I get mad with her. I told her, -"Marina, look at me." - -Let's not talk about Marina now. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to get to that. But I would like to cover this -background first. - -You continued as a designer? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I switched firms. - -Mr. JENNER. Of Leeds Wearing Apparel? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I started to travel to Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. You made frequent trips to Europe? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Twice a year. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, eventually, you reached Texas. How did that -happen? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my daughter had asthma. She is a very -allergic child. And her health was really terrible. In spite of all the -care given to her, she just could not stand the New York climate. And -our family doctor said the only way to save her--she was getting really -sick from antibiotics and penicillin--is to change the climate. - -So I was very anxious to change the climate--going to California, that -was my aim. - -But I could not reach California. Mr. Gold, of Nardis Sportswear in New -York, wanted to open a suit department. And, of course, the buyers did -know me all over the country--the same buyers--recommended to get in -touch with me and engage me. And it was pretty good. It was $20,000 a -year, plus two trips to Europe, with expenses paid, and about $7,000 to -buy the models--you just cannot go in and look at the shows. - -So I decided I am going to go and do it. And Texas is better -climatewise than New York. - -And, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left New York. -It is a fantastic change. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you go to Texas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Texas in 1953, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. 1953. Did your husband accompany you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came in the summer, and then I had to go -immediately to Europe. And he came over in the fall, when my daughter -returned from camp. He came over in the fall, and then shipped all the -furniture. - -In the meanwhile, I stayed with the Golds. They have a very big -mansion---- - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband left Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he came in the fall of 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. He came in the fall from New York City? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was there--how long did he stay? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He stayed there until about February of 1954. - -Mr. JENNER. And then he did what? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then he went to California. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he working? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he went to visit my brother for holidays. -We always tried to go to California instead of going to Miami, to be -with my brother. And he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move -to California. So we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate -something while I finish my contract. My contract was expiring in the -spring of 1954. - -Mr. JENNER. Your contract with Nardis? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I would go there, also, also in the -late spring or early summer--maybe he can locate something in the -meanwhile, in California. - -And then I was very lucky. It was Mr. Gold's tough luck. But it was -good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. There was a -tremendous scandal. And he had two buildings--he lost one of the -buildings. In other words, he could not afford even to go into the -suit operation, and go ahead with it. So he was very glad that I asked -for release, and he was glad to give it to me. He thought I am going -to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract -before. And I was very glad. It worked out very nice for me. We -remained good friends. And then I went to California. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you work in California? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked with Style Garments, a coat and -suit firm. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the name of it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Style Garments. They are out of business now. -The owners were interested in real estate. And they went into real -estate. So the firm closed up. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in California? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Actually living in one spot--that was 1954. I -think it was 1955, spring, I received an offer from Dallas, to fly -just for 2 or 3 weeks, and design a collection of suits. It was for I. -Clark. That was wonderful. - -Mr. JENNER. That took you back to Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On and off. I just went for a few weeks. You -see, I designed a suit collection, and I went back. And then they asked -me to come over and do some more dresses. So I started to go there back -and forth. And also, at the same time, going to New York to buy fabrics -for the firm, and at the same time I decided, well, if I do that, I -might do the same type of work in New York. If I can fly to New York -to buy fabrics, I can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand -dollars. - -I designed a collection for Handmacher. I designed a collection for -Leeds. One week I got $1,100. So you can see what can happen. - -But that really was getting me. Because it went on until 1956 fall. I -was on the plane more than off the plane. And it wasn't very good for -my daughter. She was already 14, 15. - -Mr. JENNER. You had custody of your daughter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the divorce? - -Mr. JENNER. Were you taking your daughter on these trips? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; how could I? She was going to school all -the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she going to school in California? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; going to high school. - -Mr. JENNER. Eventually, did you take up permanent residence in Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I took up permanent residence at the time when I -told my husband I am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of -1956. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take your daughter with you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. She was then what age? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was 15. And I have a reason for doing that, -because I just couldn't do it to her father. He would be completely -killed. The only thing left--he doesn't have any relatives at all. He -doesn't have a single soul in this world. In fact, I tell you--in the -divorce case, I insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her -money, he will have money to live on, too. - -If I took the daughter, I could not give him money to live on--he -wouldn't take it. But if he had custody of the child then she will be -provided for, and he could still keep on going with that. - -So that was the thing. But it worked out the other way--when he -completely turned in rage. He even, when I flew to California he -wouldn't let me see her. I had to get a sheriff to see her. Now, I -understand. - -Mr. JENNER. He is in a mental institution in California now? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He was, on and off, and finally he is -there. He seems to be incurable. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you meet your present husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. When you came back to Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To design a collection. I was working there. - -Mr. JENNER. And did his daughter as well as your daughter join you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did, but later on. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She joined us in, I think, the spring of 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had both girls for a while. You know, she -eloped, his little girl. - -Mr. JENNER. And married Gary Taylor? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I wanted to break that marriage right -away, and get her back in school, and spank her--really tough. But the -parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. It -was no love--it was just delinquency. She didn't know who I was. She -thought I will be easy going--knowing her father, she thought I was -easy going. And all of a sudden she came in. She had to study, she had -to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with I have to meet -first. So she couldn't possibly--I talked to her just last year. I -said, "Tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought I -would be very easy. And you certainly didn't like the way I was strict -with you." - -But I was strict with my daughter, also. And she was older than she -was. And she would not go out until she brought the young man to -introduce. And then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my -present husband. - -She asked, "What do you think of him?" - -She was 19 already. That little kid was just 14 or 15. So I could not -possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much -older. - -Sometimes I think maybe if I wasn't so strict with her, maybe--you -never know with children. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra, is -now married. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is divorced. - -Can you imagine that? - -Mr. JENNER. She has remarried. - -Tell me about your present husband. What kind of a person is he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. He is a terrific person, -absolutely terrific. He has a soul of gold. I really mean it. And -sometimes he drives me so crazy, I can just smash his head, because he -is so impatient. He is extremely impatient. He is always in a hurry. -You have to be 10 times faster than he is in order to have everything -quiet. That is about the only quality that I would not like--he is just -always in a hurry. He is always rushing somewhere, and everything has -to be just immediately. Never a second late. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he an outspoken person? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; very, very, very outspoken person. - -Mr. JENNER. Very handsome and an attractive man? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. I like--inside--I think he is -much better inside than outside. He is a good-looking man. And women -find him fantastically attractive. I don't. I like his personality. I -think he is wonderful. He feels--he is nice with people, he is nice -with animals. I don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate -harm. - -He can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and -actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may -hurt them. He may do that. - -But he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. So by -speaking like that--for instance, he can make a joke about a person, -really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person. - -Mr. JENNER. He is a little heavy in his humor? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it is uncalled for at all. - -And, later on, when I tell him, he agrees with me. But it was already -said. And especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully -hurt. And he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing -people, which some people appreciate and some people don't. - -I personally don't appreciate teasing, and I don't appreciate--I don't -think it is necessary. He thinks it is very funny. I don't think it -is funny at all. That is the thing. Through that, I am sure he has a -couple of people that don't like him very well. I don't think they -hate him. The only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife, -because of the children. - -Mr. JENNER. Didi? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was so hateful, that nothing could just -soften her or break her down--nothing, nothing, nothing. No matter how -he tried, no matter how I tried, nothing. It is a blank wall. Such -hatred, such venom and such hatred. It is impossible. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why it is so wonderful when he told me -that she spoke nicely about him. It was a wonderful surprise. It is for -the first time, really. It was a very pleasant surprise. So we have -hope--maybe she is growing up. You don't have to be grown up to grow up. - -Mr. JENNER. What are your husband's political views? Now, I mean -political with a capital P. I don't mean Democrat or Republican -politics. I mean political in the grand sense. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the grand sense--I would say he is a real -Democrat, for democracy. But, also, you see, both of us--we don't -believe that every country should have the same government, because -each country--a certain government will be good for one country, and -would be completely awful for another. - -For instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries -may need that. They may live better, happier, until they grow up a -little more to handle themselves. So we don't--I would say we are very, -very flexible on this point, both of us--very flexible. It just depends -what is the best for the people. If people are ready and able to have a -complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world. -But it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off, -because some countries get lost--they still have to be guided. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him as a loyal American? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. He doesn't have to be here. He has -friends all over the world. And--we live out more than in. Why do we -come back? What is the reason? Just because we like it. - -Gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the -United States. We are aiming for the San Francisco area, northern -California. That is where we would love. We love swimming, the ocean. -That is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want -to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it -ourselves, in the place we want to. Not just to hop around. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mind returning at 9 tomorrow morning? - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED - -The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April -24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert -E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. You worked for Judy Bond, Inc.? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Judy Bond, and Nancy Greer, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. The same firm? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at -the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned. -I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to -dresses. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Jack Rothenberg familiar to you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could -be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer. - -Mr. JENNER. The records reflect that you were employed there as a -designer in the fall of 1957. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were -two--Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. -Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall working for Handmacher Vogel in 1956? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You remember when I told you I flew in and -designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited. -The same year. - -Mr. JENNER. Leeds Coats, Inc.? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Also 1956, wasn't it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956. -Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in -the fall of 1946? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You -see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And -instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which -happens to be Martins. - -Mr. JENNER. Martins Fashion Apparel Store? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers -very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, -on the floor. That was the general idea. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942, -1944, and 1945. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't -remember for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. And the fall of 1946. Then you worked for a while for R. H. -Macy. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just on the same basis--just for a couple of -days. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all right. I just want to know that you did. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. About when was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. It must be before 1947, -because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I -just couldn't combine it. - -Mr. JENNER. Way back in 1941 you worked for a while for Bloom and Eagen. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, a dress firm. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you remember about when that was? You worked there as a -model? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was before I even started with Leeds. - -Mr. JENNER. You worked there as a model. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Lombardy Coat Co.? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I -don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a -couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor -happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it. - -Mr. JENNER. And your employment in Dallas was---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for -which you worked in 1953? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nardis; Nardis of Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And that spanned about what period of time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That spanned almost a year, starting summer 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I terminated the contract around April. - -Mr. JENNER. Around April of 1954? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for whom? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From then on, I moved to California, and I -started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be 1954? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too -long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had -an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. And that---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my first job with Clark, because I -worked for Nardis before. - -Mr. JENNER. And you worked for Clark for how long? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our -walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in 1960? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and -summer and fall of 1960? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We -left Dallas on October 6 or October 5. - -Mr. JENNER. 1960? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. And you returned when? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to -the same date--in the very first days of October. I worked for another -company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Spring or fall? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was summer, just before we went on our -trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too. -1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip. - -Mr. JENNER. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when -you got back? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going -to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was -negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was -stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could -not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. -You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and -dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize -the whole thing. - -Mr. JENNER. But it did eventually materialize? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly -hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off -on this, and he couldn't do very much, either. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For me it was really drastic. - -Mr. JENNER. But you went to work--you did return to work before you -went to Haiti? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we -needed to do it. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Millinery. I was working in the millinery -department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Preston Center? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Preston Center Store. - -Mr. JENNER. And you worked in the millinery department until just -before---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before we left for the east, before we made a -trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth -of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we -planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and -then he was also in Washington. - -We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the -whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and -God knows--we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days. -And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace -Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew -over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with -everything. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I -think, was on the second of June---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We arrived 2 June. Oh, yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other -than this trip you have now made to testify? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan -about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In -fact, we didn't leave the country at all. - -Mr. JENNER. That applies to your husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband -was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in -Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you join him there? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the -date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished -designing--I joined him--it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was -my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my -husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and -they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with -this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job. - -Mr. JENNER. You joined him in Yugoslavia. What town was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Zagreb. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were with him in Zagreb how long? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10 -days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He -worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And -then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was -Petrovaz, a little town. - -Mr. JENNER. And he remained there, and you remained there how long? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Petrovaz? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had -time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was -an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had -been shooting at us in Yugoslavia? - -Mr. JENNER. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about -that. But I would like to have you tell me about it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to -be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature--nothing that already -will be prepared for us. So we took--in the morning we took a walk in -the mountains. We climbed the mountains. - -In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it -was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast--the most beautiful spot -in the world. And the mountains--we saw something that looked like a -fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and -pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was -old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they -were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested -in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing -this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea. - -He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do -something to them--this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know -a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is obnoxious? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want -to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the -shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out--his -bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The -current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it -was very difficult. - -So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said, -"They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni, -the villa where Tito lives--they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough. -We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a -little island. We left the canoe. - -Mr. JENNER. Canoe or rowboat? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat. -So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front -of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the -water in front of another cave. It was beautiful--just like a curtain -drape. And all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from -me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the -cave and we were sitting there--what are we going to do? We are quite -far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they -shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and -talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk -to us, but nobody came. - -So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we -dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. -Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got -angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials -came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was -another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty, -not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is -what happened to us in Yugoslavia. - -When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches -of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such -things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States -Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody -doing some sketching. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day--he went for -a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero. - -Mr. JENNER. Nero is one of your pups? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of -course, Haitians--they almost called him Longaron--that is a werewolf, -Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very -mild people. They just enjoyed it. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you leave Europe on that occasion? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When--1957? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot tell you exactly. But it was in the -fall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you both return to the United States together? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He -stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember -right after he returned Clark was in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. That is I. Clark? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And in fact he went with me to meet him at -the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me -into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned -together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth. - -Mr. JENNER. At Hanover, N.H.? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and then we drove slowly--we drove -through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw -it--St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to -drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through -Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his -old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They -have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what year? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was 1957; still 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall your husband making a trip to Ghana? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he did. I believe it was in 1958, in late -spring. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not for long. It was about 3 weeks or so. - -Mr. JENNER. That was for what purpose? What did you understand it to be -for? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, to make--he was working for some people, -for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and -he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the -National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said -now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria. - -Mr. JENNER. Nigeria and Ghana, are they the same? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They are not the same, but they are close. He -was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines -throughout the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating -business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that -now. It is a fantastic business. - -Mr. JENNER. It is fantastic? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you love nature. Otherwise, it is no fun at -all. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I -draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic -about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated. -They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I -really love that. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about -your trip down through Mexico and Central America. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never -forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more -exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and -in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost -like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us. - -Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy -with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us--we -get killed or not killed--the only thing we worry about Nero being an -orphan if something happen to us. - -But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little -trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so -well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried -water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took -water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the -afternoon, his dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. The mule? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. -Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5-1/2 months through Mexico. -Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting. - -Mr. JENNER. Costa Rica? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to -cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make -that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go -through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we -were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we -would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin -like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in -good physical shape. But the torrential rains--we were almost swept -out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in -order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from -our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return -to Dallas. And I didn't want to. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you get to Haiti--was that purely a business trip--I -mean a pleasure trip? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot -of minerals on the way. And he sent them--he had been sending them to -be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We -found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such -perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost. - -But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where -we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have -time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, -because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything, -because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico. - -Mr. JENNER. Your visa in Mexico permitted you to stay there 6 months? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the -border--that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would -be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry. - -But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a -volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you -imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since -I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the -crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The -lava was gushing down. We have photographs and movies. I am from the -red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero--my hair is -standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we -walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any consideration other than you have -indicated, any purpose--I will put it that way--of your trip other than -you have indicated? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency, -or any government? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Or have any political aspects whatsoever? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know you have to ask these questions, but -there was none at all, absolutely none. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico -and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, -did it not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But we learned about it much later. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Were you aware of the Bay of Pigs invasion in -advance? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Advance? We were not even aware at the time of -it. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. But we noticed something very funny. We -noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They -looked like American boys. And then when we--we had---- - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always -sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, -asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute -we arrived to the city--we leave our mule and go right away to the -Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a -commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked -about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of -the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion -was going on. - -So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running -around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that -there was an invasion. - -So maybe that was the people that were involved in it. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all you know about the Bay of Pigs invasion? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all we know about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in Cuba? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and -you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mikoyan? - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped. -We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was -also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you have a date when she eloped--sometime in -November. - -Mr. JENNER. What year? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must -be. I think it was 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was November 1959, to my best -belief. I cannot be sure. - -Chronologically, it must be around there. - -Mr. JENNER. You tell me about the incident and I will find the date. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was very simple. We had dinner with the -presidential pilot and some other friends. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the pilot of the President of Mexico? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the -name. Can we just say presidential pilot? - -Mr. JENNER. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now, -you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you -understand it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. G-o-r-d-u-n-i-o N-o-u-n-i-o. - -They were giving him--the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell -reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded, -and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan? -I said, of course I would. - -Mr. JENNER. Who said that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The pilot. - -I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun -to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then -George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't -go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I -go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt -you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded. - -So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that -reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd, -I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course, -pathetic. Women don't even look like women. - -Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Russian women, at the reception. The -Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even -good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in -some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because -I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole -tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was -with the captain, and he was very close--very good friend of Mikoyan. -We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was -speaking English. And then we came over to the plane. - -Mr. JENNER. You went out to the airport? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To the airport, when he was already leaving, -after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain -to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane -standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan, -this is my friend Senora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and -said---- - -Mr. JENNER. You spoke in Russian? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you, -Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a -Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time. -And all of a sudden, I deliberately--it was sort of a prank. He almost -fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it -in Dallas to everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that was purely an adventure? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, sure. It was just a prank, just for fun. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or -any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico--you had not -anticipated the presence of the Russian mission? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely. -George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this -exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there--I think -they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the -Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been -on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it--they just didn't -accept it, they didn't accept his proposal. - -And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the -presidential pilot. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from -your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That must be November 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in -Mexico City. - -Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to Haiti? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to -Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly. - -Mr. JENNER. You flew to Haiti? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of that visit to Haiti? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The main purpose was to rest, and another -purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, -75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him -like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we -don't go now, we might never see him. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Michael Breitman. And he died within the next -year. - -Mr. JENNER. But that was--that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit -this gentleman? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And to rest. - -Mr. JENNER. From your long, arduous trip through Central America? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By boat? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By boat, by Lykes Line. - -Mr. JENNER. And your harbor was what--St. Charles, or Lake Charles? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the -last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over -there, the Savages. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Mitchells? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house, -stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and -we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car. - -Mr. JENNER. Your friend---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Houston. We have quite a few friends in -Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period -when you met the Oswalds. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the -nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time. - -Now, as I understand it, you met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the late summer. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a small Russian colony? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony. -There are some odds-and-ends Russian people. - -Mr. JENNER. I am using a reference to identify a more or less -heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common -interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had -been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian -people there--some that came in after the revolution, and there are -some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now telling me about this situation in Dallas, are -you not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to classify who was before and who -came in later. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are telling me about people in Dallas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the -United States was, of course--Marina was, and I think there was another -one, Declan Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Declan Ford? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a -dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and -so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was -Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice -fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage -broke up. - -Mr. JENNER. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian -derivation. Some had come directly from Russia--that is, in the sense -that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Russia. They were prisoners, civil -prisoners. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her story is something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the -war ended, they met American boys, and married them. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't -know of anybody else. - -Mr. JENNER. Then others had escaped Russia or Poland? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. For instance, one of them--she was never -even in Russia--that type of Russian colony. She was married to an -American man. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, this is a group that had common interests--interested -in each other? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all -criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further -apart. They were not exactly all friends--I will put it that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see--you had been there--well, you were off and on -commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956, 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this -history, did you people--and I don't mean just you alone, but I am -talking about the whole group--become interested in them, seek to meet -them, become acquainted? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of -a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in -people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people -they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something--and none -of them were really--only Marina was--then we helped them. - -But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or -wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were you generally--were you advised normally in -advance that somebody new was coming? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for -months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. -They were talking for a couple of months. - -Mr. JENNER. Who? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we found out about her actually through, I -believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Max Clark? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort -Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very -active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity -things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he -even had a fund for them--the people would give money--because he gave -money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bouhe did give you money---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To pay for her dentist. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you remember how much that was? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, it wasn't very much--maybe $20; something -like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for -anything else with respect to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were -wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming -to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about -it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know when they came. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been -in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before? - -Mr. JENNER. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he -attempted to defect? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; nothing at all--in spite that it was in some -press somewhere--I believe it was printed. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw it. Never had no idea. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of -you--Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk, -Raigorodsky---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a character--Dymitruk was also imported -recently. I think after we were there. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean imported? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean he arrived--I call him imported. He was -really a sad sack. - -Mr. JENNER. He was the husband of Lydia Dymitruk? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you about her. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But I know very little about them. - -Mr. JENNER. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I -want to emphasize here is--if it is the truth--I don't want to put any -words in your mouth--that you had no advance notice that either of -these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, -never heard anything? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that generally true of all these people? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody -knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And, -actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know -that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot even tell. I would like to know, -myself, now, how it came about. - -Mr. JENNER. They were brought to your attention? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My recollection is that he finally--we were -sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we -still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally--I don't -remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us -for the first time. That is how it happened. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was in the late summer of 1962? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular -time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute -any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the -clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort -I would be glad to do. - -Mr. JENNER. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and -your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for -a year we didn't make any money, on our trip. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the facts. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not enough to be charitable. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and -petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on -business, finances, is he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money. -I am the one--I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He -doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a -steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good -money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in. - -He may have within a year two or three fantastic things--go to Ghana, -go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money. - -But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he -learned when he has something to hold onto it. - -Mr. JENNER. So there were periods when his financial situation was -good, so he was high? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we -were very fortunate before our trip--he had an assignment in Ghana, and -he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we -can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that -trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not -as affluent? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course. - -Mr. JENNER. But you folks were at no time wealthy people? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Real wealthy, no. - -Mr. JENNER. You made---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could have been if I saved the money, but I -didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. - -Mr. JENNER. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to -assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly; none at all. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were in a position that you could afford them time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And attention? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Not them--actually with Marina, because we -couldn't do much for Oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him, -and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had--I don't know who got -it--I think it was an agency that got him the job he had. - -Mr. JENNER. At Leslie Welding? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in -a darkroom. - -Mr. JENNER. That was later. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know the name of it. - -Mr. JENNER. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you -first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home -or---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I really don't remember. -And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying -to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still -remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our -house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we -took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know. - -Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the -baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone. - -Mr. JENNER. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never entered their home in Fort Worth. -George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I -think, when we brought Marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because -he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere--there was a -tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something. - -Mr. JENNER. Sears? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't -remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house. -That is what I saw. A wooden building. - -Mr. JENNER. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely -starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you -know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had -would make anybody miserable to live with. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow? - -Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, -and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he -was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was -that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. -Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My -daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't -have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, -and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such -circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because -Marina was throwing it into his face. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And -she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things, -and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And -I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, -while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her -what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for -him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked -overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and -when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running -around. - -He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very -difficult personality. - -And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive -attitude to him. - -I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, -he could have killed us. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife -physically. We saw her with a black eye once. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own -kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you -cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things -to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each -other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, -and see, maybe you really don't love each other." - -Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she -separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the -language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along -with Oswald's family. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them. - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to identify your sources of information. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they -didn't get along well with their---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say through them, because maybe people -talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's -home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody -mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in -the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is lazy. You see, there are people that -actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about -them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really -can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? At your home? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you--if I stay -with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning, -see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything. - -She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same -thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her -teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the -same way--very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it--a young person. -Maybe she was ill. We talked about it--maybe we have just too much -energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active. - -The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning -English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our -little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English--I bought -them in New York when I arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning -English, or did Oswald object to her learning English? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. According to her Oswald objected, and he also -told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he -doesn't want to forget Russian. - -But then we got onto Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was -his reason--not to let his wife learn English--because she was the only -person he could speak Russian to. - -Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she -learned English, couldn't he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, -"You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in -this country without the language, she cannot do anything." - -He was strange in many, many ways. - -But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little -violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your -wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness. - -Mr. JENNER. Please. - -You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the -child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him -into doing it peacefully. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller. - -Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put -the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how -nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary -until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or -3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, -because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not -a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she -refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely. - -And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe -for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. In October or November? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know. - -Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think -it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide -whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each -other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless -to continue to live the way they were. - -In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was -always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, Bouhe's -type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he is an older man. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your -husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the -personality. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both -Marina and Lee about their difficulties? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same -room. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as -to her dissatisfaction? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what? - -Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied -with him? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell -you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak -so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by -it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. -She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay -enough attention to her. - -Mr. JENNER. That was one reason? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes. - -And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes -to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or -something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat -her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. -She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes -to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their -main disagreements. - -And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. -He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just -changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the -child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child -makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to -pick the child up, Lee is after her--why is the baby crying? And the -baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her -or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She -had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just -couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same -time, she didn't do much to free herself from it. - -Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? -Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over -into those areas? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be -neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home -or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, -because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you -make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am -sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will. - -At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things -to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were -miserable, very, very poor. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your opinion of---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One thing I want to tell you. - -When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took -her--the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little -apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University -Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs -something with the car to help them. - -Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from -everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff--God knows -where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other -people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything -against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very -much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people -give her so many things. Maybe that is why. - -Why did he live so far? - -We were very mad about it, too. - -I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak -Cliff to help them with this or that"--if she had to go to the doctor. -Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier -for me to help her. - -He had some reasons to live far away. - -I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was -everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the -way out. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me of her personality. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same -time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way -she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she -loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive -on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States. - -That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she -felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to -come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big -houses and everything. - -Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her? - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind -of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that -house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that -apartment house." - -And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she -sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met. - -And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much -influential in making them come back. - -Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. - -On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he -was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him. - -Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had -been disappointed in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were -such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?" - -And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow." - -He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen." - -And I said, "How come you are back?" - -He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for." - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I -was looking for." - -So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, -and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard -way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was -wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about -paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the -first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them -to live. Those are the things. - -And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that -made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot -of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly -to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good -qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe -he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I -don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved -in it. - -But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and -she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging. - -Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us. - -Mr. JENNER. She did? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever -speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. -Because I could see---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, -something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't -mean anything to us. That is a conclusion. - -What did she say to him? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, -I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember -exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, -having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you -are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else. - -And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your -impressions, but how you came by them. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think -it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we -saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once -overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, -very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count -it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I -find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or -something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well. - -He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and -good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them. - -So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people -that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and -your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, -and Oswald respected your husband. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. -And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. -He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a -little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear -her dresses if we take her away from him. - -I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that -is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he -sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all -right, he would not do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you -related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money -so that she could live better? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, -sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick -that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I -didn't know such things can happen to people, you know. - -We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the -baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is -supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering--it has to -be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is -the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. -This man. So we objected to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you -formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term -"ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, -reading, reading, reading. - -Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will -hurt men's pride. That definitely was. - -Mr. JENNER. Try and recall more of that. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, -she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. -That was very important. Because--and I know--I told you the reasons -why he objected to that, which are understandable, also. - -But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--I -remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the -phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other -plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you -don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told -that to me. - -There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he -could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in -a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either--that type of a -person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like -that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him. - -You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their -hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to -do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of -charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those -people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him -after that. But Oswald didn't. - -And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked -Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that -Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. -He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that -Oswald was rude to people helping him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your -presence? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In which way? Overall political, or any -particular incidents? - -Mr. JENNER. Politics with a capital P. His views on government. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist -Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would -understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to -any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, -because that was--oh, this is very important. - -His objection--the things that he didn't like in Russia was those -horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that -you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive -people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to -go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he -was--according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or -belonging to anything. - -It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he -was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets -or something, in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Passing them out? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. Because we never had---- - -Mr. JENNER. You were in Haiti by that time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to -visit them? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday -before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, -I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it -was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for -the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you arrive there during the day? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was in the evening. I think we were -playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will -be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby. - -And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And -I remember they gave us something to drink. - -Mr. JENNER. You arrived there. Were they--had they retired for the -night? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they were halfway in bed already, -because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was -dark. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee came to the door? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or -Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. They turned the light on. And where were they living then? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was their last apartment--not Elsbeth, -but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other -address I don't have. It is just around the corner. - -Mr. JENNER. 214? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the address. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it upstairs or downstairs? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big -tree growing right next to the terrace. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little -fact could be important. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that -occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came -to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and -your husband went in the home? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat -down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing -me the house--that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, -because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? -Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the -gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there? - -Mr. JENNER. You say---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't -hidden or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that -you saw? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make -believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning -something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is -this? - -Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, -because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. -This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just -had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here. - -Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because -when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the -closet--you saw a rifle? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course. - -Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I -gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it -was something new and strange to you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my -father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby. - -Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have -indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen -a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with -the bolt action that this has? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt -action, but I would not know. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was -something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or -something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, -plain rifle. This is for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you -concerned about it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a -rifle? - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, -"Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived -in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves -and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I -personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to -shoot at a target, target shooting. - -Mr. JENNER. Skeet? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is -going in a public park and shooting leaves? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with -her, and that was his amusement. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the -park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go -to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't -find anything strange. - -Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement -parks? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Little .22? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking -around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, -shooting leaves? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had -no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or -just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it? - -Mr. JENNER. 6.5. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with -us. - -Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your -acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, -in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a -sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so -short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she -told me. And you know what happened after that. - -Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy -lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things. - -Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was -shooting it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other -part of the house? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two -rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they -have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were -sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? -A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his -sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He -said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started -laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, -according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of -Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any -change---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know. - -Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me -his. You noticed nothing? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of -expression? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at -him. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. -And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. -And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by -the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The -baby was asleep. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Never saw them? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was -Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I don't. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left. - -Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In -any event, it was the day before Easter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter. - -Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few -weeks, a couple of weeks? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, -Washington, Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already -gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood -that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't -get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, -with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't -remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when -there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of -Everett Glover? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's -friends. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, -and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed -that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had -still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple -of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a -woman, Ruth Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was -sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to -American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he -mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and -it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, -because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in -Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on -from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't -remember. I really don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your -home, isn't that correct? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we -liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful -person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to -somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have -any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to -advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too -much problems with our own children. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own -children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not -my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over -and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning -this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this -contract. We had our heads busy with other things. - -Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and -the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life -of Indians--or---- - -Mr. JENNER. About your trip? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all. - -Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it -was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I -don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was -there. - -There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that -worked with Everett. - -Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, -I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This -time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we -showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house -because they were interested in that. - -Mr. JENNER. What are their names? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a -university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I -am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when -the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got -them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we -came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day. - -Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing -it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for -dinner, and then we brought them over. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have -indicated? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of? - -Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have -indicated? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party -in December of 1963 at the Fords? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party, -and we attended it. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in -December? Was it in the holiday period? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it -December or was it early January, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this -Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you -know about Yaeko? - -Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her last name? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always -called her Yaeko. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was she working? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time -or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the -family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was -wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. -I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to -invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. -Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus. - -Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese -special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas -Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives -exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and -she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But -then we heard that she was in New York. - -To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was -something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you -know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she -was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating -around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing -happened, too, with that Yaeko. - -Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically -spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of -course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was -furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what -I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was -very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's -put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a -house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from -Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by -whom Yaeko was employed? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily. - -Mr. JENNER. How? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that -actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very -well. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about -Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. -Henry Rogatz, also in---- - -Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my -phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have -Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on? - -Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address -and telephone number, if you have it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe -somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when -we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko. - -Mr. JENNER. Voshinin? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more -than anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He -paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. - -Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the -slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. -We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. -That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only -talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what -she told me. He really liked Yaeko. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight -almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we -weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted -Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas -in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her -into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby -because the baby would wake up. - -I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have -another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we -went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we -took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up -the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back. - -Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That -was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in -December of 1963 you were in Haiti. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already. - -Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home -that evening? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we -had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor -woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby -was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, -because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. -That is why we were so sorry for them. - -I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried -to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little -boy, too. - -Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Alexandra? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She -thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she -doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, -also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that. - -Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was -complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with -Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, -and I think they helped them to move, even. - -Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a -good boy, you know. He is nothing at all. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, -so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's -prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry -for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. -I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some -and maybe the kids consoled them after. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she -sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything -come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to -Russia? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all. - -Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't -ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the -whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than -we ever knew about them. - -Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, -as well. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, -Jacqueline Kennedy's mother? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what? - -Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the letter---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband show you that letter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Before he sent it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show -to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything -or if he wants to add anything to mine. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 -being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to -Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter -was mailed. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think I really should read it. - -Do you want me to read it again? - -Mr. JENNER. You have read that exhibit? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read -this, too? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. - -The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently -last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and -especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean -by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him -because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the -killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather -not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we -help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him -in the same feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor -Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. -She and the baby were malnourished and sickly." - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, all that is true; isn't it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. -The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know -how to feed that baby. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby -was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, -like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I -insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was -9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, -didn't have anything. - -I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding -him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in -the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a -balanced diet. - -I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to -raise a baby correctly." - -She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, -putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's -mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all -that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the -clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina's teeth? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because -they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the -baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was -trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that -could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do -for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She just didn't know any better, you know. -That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina -doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling -about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them -all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, -sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested -in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She -wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for -anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything -like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely -opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was -absolutely too--I never thought that. I thought they were very, very -proper and very---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say about how they behaved? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild -parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth -would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian -companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad -ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, -you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or -in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy -interests. - -And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite -of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But -somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It -was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all -are, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in -Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very -little, because he was always working or something. One evening I -talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and -the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and -we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and -she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I -was really sorry for her. - -I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and -she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you -know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on -her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You -cannot be very angry with her. - -Mr. JENNER. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what -kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You -have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that -expression I assume they were parties of---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never -occur to us. - -Mr. JENNER. In this country? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In this country. I would say China, too. I was -brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth -never acted like that at all. - -So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely -degeneration. - -Mr. JENNER. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In bringing up the child? - -Mr. JENNER. In bringing up this child? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. That she fed her sugar and water? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Milk and sugar. - -Mr. JENNER. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with -the child? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The child was more or less clean, but with this -pacifier thing. - -Mr. JENNER. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up -and stick it in the baby's mouth? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and -then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. -Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected -teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, -didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make -any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the -medical help is supposed to be absolutely free. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any other incidents? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With Marina? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recollect of anything of any importance. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her -honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests -were involved, let us say? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like -about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. -According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was -asked--I mean what swayed me about her personality---- - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers -afterward. I want your opinion. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really -impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, -promiscuous, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Promiscuous. - -Mr. JENNER. She was promiscuous but not malicious? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you -know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the -United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She -wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all -these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me -when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor -apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and -these gadgets and a refrigerator? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, -suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for -very little money. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know -if he even drives a car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive a car? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence -indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car -only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would -be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I -have. We didn't have too much discussions about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the -dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next -time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know her very little, but I recall her. I -think it is Lydia, isn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in -Baylor Hospital, dental clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. Some money had to be paid in that connection? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you got that money from George Bouhe? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, and he told me there would be -the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some -funds for them. - -Mr. JENNER. That if there was need for additional money---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time -last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove -to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away -from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I -did not take him seriously." You have told us about that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian -refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to -her husband." Is that correct? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the Mellers? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a -week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. -We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, -go through all that trying to do something for them and then she -dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we -were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if -we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let -them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which -Marina left Lee and went with some others? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, -too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we -hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden -I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or -something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a -few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only -connection we had. - -Mr. JENNER. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes -occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy -for success and the late President was successful in so many domains -and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady -characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband -discuss that sentence with you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this -letter. - -Mr. JENNER. But you read the letter before it was mailed? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I read the letter. - -The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be -that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you -know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything -that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he -was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful -President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so -it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression of the man? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, never at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make -any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and -whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely -exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that -would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that -is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable -discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, -no. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We read it in the papers after. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to keep separated here what you learned about -afterwards. - -Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. That you had any contact with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever -mentioned? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his boyhood ever mentioned? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His boyhood? - -Mr. JENNER. Boyhood. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Never, never. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't -lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't -remember discussing that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in -the service, and what he had done? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't recall any conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being -a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, -that was rationalization afterwards? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions -should have been taken." - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. I agree. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with your husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but -better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on -that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should -have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they -had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without -that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson. - -Mr. JENNER. So this remark in the letter is based on that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On that, exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. That is as far as you are concerned? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as we are concerned, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband may have had something else in mind? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did -he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right -wing, extreme right wing? - -Mr. JENNER. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably -did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans -are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like -what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to -segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too -forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. -And so there was a lot of---- - -Mr. JENNER. Animosity? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they -didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still -Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible -thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan. - -Mr. JENNER. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope -that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not -suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not -affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, -notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last -sentence, did your husband discuss that with you? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We talk about it very often. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In -fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his -office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please -mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I -wouldn't even see the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he -prepared the letter? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was -going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just -wrote the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more -than once? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I took her twice there, I believe. -They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed -me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It -gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you -know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be -a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn -English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit. - -Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the -Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could -be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to -meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I -am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, -"For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian -and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you -still didn't meet the Oswalds?" - -She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason." - -I said, "What are the reasons?" - -She said, "I cannot tell you." - -Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his -personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was -very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you gave them these language records? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A phonograph. - -Mr. JENNER. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money -that you had received from George Bouhe? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't give them any of your own money? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not that I ever recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You brought them gifts? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just tiny little things. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You gave her some clothing. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. -By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes -was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some -slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have -it altered for her and she didn't need to. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home -overnight you gave her---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance -in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever -discuss his finances with you and your husband? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much -about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay -out the debt. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the -United States and its form of government? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. He objected to the way the integration -question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do. - -Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to segregation, was he? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He -wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just -American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we -have. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his -views were. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is completely in accord with President -Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly -sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had -something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in -which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. -Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off -the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed -to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this -investigation? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the only thing, the question I actually -brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking -it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just -doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never heard of him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in -the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That he operated? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, -disposed to attend that sort of thing. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack -Rubinstein? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall -ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence. - -Mr. JENNER. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as -drinking is concerned? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean apart from newsreels? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. TV? No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated -that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of -Jack Ruby's places? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching -for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good -intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all -there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put -it that way. - -Mr. JENNER. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the -newspapers? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the only thing I know. - -Mr. JENNER. And not on any actual facts you know anything about? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; and, also based on the natural -deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any -sense. The whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple. -How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely -stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the -march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a -little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you -the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any -sense. - -No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he -would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it -yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up -for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't -have a good time, I am sure, and he did not. - -What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit -it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know? - -It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the -garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a -garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it. - -Mr. JENNER. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, -that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first -time? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That you knew anything about a rifle? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think -might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I -would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only -person that was, you know, what I mean--maybe it was just because -she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they -discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was -attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with -Marines staying in the east. - -Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling--Marina was telling me -the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so -on and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald had told her that? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated -that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take -her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, -something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. She needled him? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be -completely imagination, you know, all of these things. - -Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did you say? - -Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your -deposition? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from -Mr. Rankin? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. General counsel of the Commission? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint -Resolution 137? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was -created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's---- - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; two copies. - -Mr. JENNER. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And fixing its responsibilities? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed -that is what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules -under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I probably did. - -Mr. JENNER. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the -Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you -and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately -has led to this. - -Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know -Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in -Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four -people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, -this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong -with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That -is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband -told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody -wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't -know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people -we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very -badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind -to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks -from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too -timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in -driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his -little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden -to see your child." - -The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning -the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did -something very big. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. -Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly -there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go -to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. -So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow--at the -moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project -because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the -relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because -he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and -mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American -people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is -doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart. - -The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever -possible and he is really doing something constructive. - -By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole -thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if -they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet -way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, -you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a -little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, -let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult. - -For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and -when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and -he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you -like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, -because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking -people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that -is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The -minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That -is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped? - -Mr. JENNER. We will see what we can do about it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in -conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we -should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is -not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the -character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That -leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able -to see the little girl. - -We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by -it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?" - -He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything -we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a -pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt -like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a -rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it -will come up. - -For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't -like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in -2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the -climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know. - -Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman -or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very -anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, -let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's -little girl. - -If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want the addresses? - -Mr. JENNER. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is -that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But -you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish. - -Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his -deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the -necessity of reading it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little -things to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sure, because if something was not just -exactly so, I don't think it really matters. - -Mr. JENNER. These men are quite competent and they take down everything. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is wonderful. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you will waive your reading and signing? - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to -be signed? - -Mr. JENNER. No; not unless you insist on it. - -Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the -other. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very, very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE - -The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March -21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by -deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's -testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day -yesterday.[1] - - [1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the - Commission appears in another volume, and can be found - by consulting the Index. - -I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine -were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather. - -The REPORTER. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. -Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1932. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough -to get out of the hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so? - -Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey. - -Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there -before, I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from -Freehold, N.J. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York -then moved to Columbus, Ohio. - -Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10. - -Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in -Columbus? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College -at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950? - -Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949. - -Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of -Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a -portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work -in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps -to obtain these positions. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit? - -Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the -academic work and credit from your job placements. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the -Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker -faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College? - -Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education. - -Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in -connection with that major in your cooperative work? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in -recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my -job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools -and group work. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in -group work ever since? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least? - -Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, -yes, in the jobs I have sought. - -Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, -hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch -College? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined -in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I -became a member. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers -and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in -Columbus from that time on. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates -that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you -were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at -Indianapolis, Ind. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of -your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big -Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during -the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American -Friends Service Committee? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that would have been the following summer. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American -Friends Service Committee work camp. - -Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, -apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 -you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community -School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement -from Antioch College. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December -1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in -the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly -stated? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March -1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township -School, Dayton, Ohio. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you teach? - -Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow -learning class. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; -was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes -indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it -was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a -capital F? Forgive my interruption. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World -Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at -Pendle Hill. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill? - -Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is -a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of -Friends, Quakers. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two words. - -Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a -delegate to--state it again. - -Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford. - -Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England? - -Mrs. PAINE. England. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also attended---- - -Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference. - -Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were -associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young -Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may -say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the -Golden Age Club. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that -took the most time. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You -say there were three. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already -said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, -recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for -members' use. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background -if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your -work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club -first. They were a group of what people? - -Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, -all of them Jewish. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all -were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them -had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business -meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had -been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke -it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook -to teach a few. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this -group? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and -club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which -sponsored the club. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided -change? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very -interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader -I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and -help them in communication between one another and specifically in -communication between the club and the organization, the Y. - -Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States -of America, as a group? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their -families here. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the next? - -Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a -week. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that -they were a group of young adults? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly -needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to -date and meet. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or -Poland? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here. - -Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would -you indicate what that was? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in -the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they -needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple -party. - -Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, -dancing groups or activities, rather, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it -was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more -in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the -visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either -the Golden Age or the young adults group? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They -could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This -required the least from me in the leadership. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, -or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had -already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are -similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business -meeting which they conducted in Yiddish. - -Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time -had you taken a course in Russian at the university? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone -through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study -of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your -pre-Antioch College period of activity. - -Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at -least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; -Wolfe Truck Farm. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a private---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact -that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, -Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a -time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war. - -Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school. - -Mr. JENNER. That was high school? - -Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we -felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because -so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the -Friends Vacation Bible School? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to -Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with -a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in -Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and -read stories. - -Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the -Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had -enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in -Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts -and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them. - -Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical -education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. University. - -Mr. JENNER. University, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your high school? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school. - -Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical -education activities? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor -to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the -particular group was? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of -underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and -no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. -This was basically sponsored by the families. - -Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had -worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group -meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and -craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children? - -Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a -helper who was 13. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended -in the---- - -Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything. - -Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the -fall term. - -Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do -some work in 1956? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I -may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael -R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. -Germantown is a section of Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at -Germantown Friends School? - -Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and -1957 to 1958 school years. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher -for grades 1 through 6. - -Mr. JENNER. During all of that period? - -Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with -Pendle Hill? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends -conferences over this period of years, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of -the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends -Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your -testimony, have you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August. - -Mr. JENNER. August 1955? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned -the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active -in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions -between the east and the west? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that -particular interest. - -Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen -pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to -see and observe America? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough -yesterday. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian -language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language -arose about that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin -until later. - -Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of -a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, -Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at -Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that---- - -Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did -attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you? - -Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends -Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham -College, but they were not conferences. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number -of them. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest -by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and -young people in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee -meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in -Wallingford, in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers? - -Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my -information is so limited. - -Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. It does not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little -garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made -reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were -interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, -as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over -here? - -Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from -the American Friends Service Committee, also. - -Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you -with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three -Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended -one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, -either before or after? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any -native Russian people other than these three Russian students and -Marina, that is to say up to November 22---- - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were -some who had been born in Russia. - -Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was -born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in -very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to -Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and -talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any -other contacts they were of that sort. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had -with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native -Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated -the character of your contacts with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your -contact with these people had been largely either in connection with -your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and -your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the -study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and -then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native -Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested -in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury -College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively -whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my -contacts. - -Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second -one, was Nina Atarina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a. - -Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is. - -Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 -months? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something -about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? -Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My -mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin -College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the -Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, -and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice -training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance -Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of -the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies? - -Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that -include any Iron Curtain countries? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State -University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies -with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the -company most of the time. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance. - -Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. -Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high -school days. Was your father an insurance---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then. - -Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told -about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the -activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I -was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is -called the cooperative movement. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand---- - -Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In -other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine -the management of the business, and share in the profits. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers -cooperative? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative -movement is? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I -am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were -interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is -an active political interest in a political party? For example, the -Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to -the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and -recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your -interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a correct statement. - -Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of -their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of -modest means? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more -money on education and good medical care than most people in our income. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, -frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and -yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the -reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, -that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think -very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with -the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the -pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the -giving of yourself to others in that respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too -much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general -connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to -help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is -not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best -possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best -life is. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you finished? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping -anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that -can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from -something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. -But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the -first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to -whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time -of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of -refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little -bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your -attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to -your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?" - -She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he -came for a weekend I told him about it." - -Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to -arrive--that is November 1. - -Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?" - -She said: "Yes." - -She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They -left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they -wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want -to wait." - -Does that refresh your recollection in that connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection -stands as I told it yesterday. - -Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of -having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be -available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends. - -Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit -there was only one agent rather than two. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, also. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection -doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was -advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected -that particular weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. It could have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's -testimony? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't; no. - -Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way? - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have. - -Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly -that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. -Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to -see Lee Oswald if he wished? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he -was employed at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break? - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there -any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging -in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the -Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an -inquiry. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said -through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the -Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area? - -Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on -the 5th of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 -interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a -conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it -not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand. - -Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course. - -Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity -of some kind. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And you never did? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties -Union? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Or your sister? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League -of Women Voters? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you -say you were rather close to your father and your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to -my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, -you have a close relation with your folks? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and -possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer -to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, -meaning I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your -sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are -interested in each other's activities? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence? - -Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and -they in you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with -each other? - -Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good -letterwriters. - -Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you -are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting. - -Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the -years; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do -it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence -and also copies of your letters, were you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, -three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in -college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes -than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation -leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people -to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days? - -Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college. - -Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, -458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited -the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes -other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other -source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your -handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be -letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister -are likewise the originals of those letters? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from -you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances -others are copies of letters that you dispatched? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please. - -We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee -Oswald, and your answer was in the negative. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, -and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash. - -Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash. - -Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about -expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to -Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking -him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific -recollection is as to these two times. - -Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he -went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in -one. That was in the spring. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April. - -Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have -already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at -any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and -temperature. - -Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this -purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, -or in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used -while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items -for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no -groceries. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, -for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one -instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, -which was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of -the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of -November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not -certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing -that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, -late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own -expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large -portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been -Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know -they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a -thrill. These were bought in Irving. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that -Marina was afforded very limited funds? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would -be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and -Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that -neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed -at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean -things with him on Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for -laundry? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you. - -Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, -any expenditures to the barber, to a barber? - -Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having -been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around. - -Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber -who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or -Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that -that was not Lee who did that. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or -having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in -Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that -is playing records, songs? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such. - -Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera -film? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she -took some pictures of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the -fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your -presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot -camera or other type of camera to take pictures? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he -held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and -said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different -size. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had -taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or people? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any -fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month? - -Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of -money. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given -by Lee to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's -Market to purchase some groceries? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina -and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think -this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the -store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to -walk--I am quite certain---- - -Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive--about 10 blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away? - -Mrs. PAINE. Something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are -not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say. - -Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of -his meals there at your home? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always -had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a -cup of coffee? - -Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one. - -Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch? - -Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or -packed some food for him to take. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in -September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his -residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from -a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how -much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three -places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between -you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their -finances and finances generally? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you -wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy. - -I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for -identification. - -They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and -Anderson, dated December 4, 1963. - -(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September -30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it -this way. Do you recall that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the -letter and ask you a question or two. - -In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads: - -"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph. - -"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the -baby." - -That is Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of -work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment -compensation, not much." - -Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it -followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September. - -Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum -or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation. - -Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It does? - -Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me -the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite -forgotten that sum. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says: - -"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will -send for them as soon as possible." - -That was your feeling at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both -to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February -to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said -she can have a place as long as they have need for it." - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation -that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period -of time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written -in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as -possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to -stay if that was necessary. - -Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to -convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and -that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be -at your home for any considerable period of time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that. - -Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing -employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning -Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send -for Marina and they would be together again? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, -and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would -you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother? - -For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the -middle of page 15 of this document. - -Do you recall the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that -Lee had obtained a position. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter: - -"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps -through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he -has the past two." - -Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with -the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being -deferred? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence. - -Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that -he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, -of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from -childbirth." - -We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the -baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care -of the house, and with June. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into -the following year? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. 1964? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular -letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in -February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer." - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that -Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? -In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible -difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting -your mother. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that -Marina might still be with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an -indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after -February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear -to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come -that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all -that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would -not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, -an action on his part that would keep them separated? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they -had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when -he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that -Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, -that she preferred the more independent situation. - -Mr. JENNER. State? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on -his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not -continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might -not continue to live in the Dallas area? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary. - -Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have -described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, -did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in -mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some -other manner or means? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a -figment of the imagination of Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon -which I could judge, was false. - -Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available -appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context -of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -What? It was written some time after the baby had been born? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three -letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has -identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her -mother. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine -Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had -actually been dispatched by you. - -Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the -Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with -you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his -family? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If -so, would your answer be the same? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and -places if any particular discussion stands out. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing -she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. -Marina also talked to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or -advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he -didn't wish her---- - -Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his -family to know that the child Rachel had been born? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and -Robert's wife in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been -able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked -both of them. - -I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same -company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think -in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early -November that he had been---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton. - -Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the -Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best -of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November -22, 1963, that he had two brothers? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there -being another brother, but I am not certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise -that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was -avoiding contact with his brother and his mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression---- - -Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact -with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was -employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was -using it to receive communications? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had -anything been said about his renting a post office box? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we -had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main -post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a -post office box there. But that was---- - -Mr. JENNER. What date was this? - -Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think---- - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main -post office. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been -was that day. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail? - -Mrs. PAINE. Magazines, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the -service? - -Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said -Marine Corps on them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in -the Marines? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall. - -Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any -of his experiences in the Marines? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early -November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had -had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his -past life, for instance his having been in Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had -related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time? - -Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was -unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley -Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, -accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in -January-February, I don't know just when. - -Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. - -Mr. JENNER. Of this year? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us? - -Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York -Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from -her. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going -over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the -School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place -where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back -to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I -answered whatever she wanted to know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin -the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole -thing back to her. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with -Mrs. Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered -one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four--no; perhaps -as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and -some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of -people. We have also had some communication by telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and -Tuesday? - -Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of -Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your -responses? Telephone, or otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home -I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he -is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say -that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say -that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a -public conclusion that he was guilty. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to -your door? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been -limited to what you have testified? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or -crusade or whatever it may be? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer -questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's -personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your -overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us -if you would. Start at the beginning. - -Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to -send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want -to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly -didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked -unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on -really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening -of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the -afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so -as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had -directly with him. - -And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout -my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and -September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to -during that time that impression, which I carried at that time. - -When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I -was impressed quite differently. - -He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to -my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my -home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the -baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be -happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with -a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that -evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly -in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to -see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and -then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire. - -And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my -mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he -could. - -Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on -the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one -letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he -tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, -that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful -of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was -because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings -of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to -Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought -someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. -Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I -think while---- - -Mr. JENNER. His only human contact? - -Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and -while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, -he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have -reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so -that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip -during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who -wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to -achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and -raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with -people and be congenial when he made efforts to be. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically---- - -Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the -record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned -that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in -September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I -felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at -this initial party when I first met him. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out -weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, -wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor -much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I -never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent -person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent -hostility towards an individual. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt -frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching -were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were -unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the -concept in which he regarded himself? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt -successful. - -As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. -But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he -had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should -achieve in the world. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective -or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid -social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within -was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a -book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a -meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and -I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the -people there. - -And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where -he was working at this last place. - -Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little -things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety -valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They -came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an -emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that -what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities -of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt. - -Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, -but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the -assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as -a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in -the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show -feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was -something that you could understand? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something---- - -Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw. - -Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. As a child. - -I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making -friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was -guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words. - -Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone. - -Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt? - -Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right. - -Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted? - -Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then -he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this -feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked -her? That is what I am getting at. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted -to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered -by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did -have very personal talks about our respective marriages. - -But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full -bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish -to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her -devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little -girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, -and of raising these children. - -I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to -try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good -marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do -her best for it. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, -of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a -position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, -almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other -words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and -stage in life. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31. - -Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and -our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore. - -Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having -met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, -and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick -up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. -That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have -have been formed from what people said and not directly formed. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you -really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you -have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my -husband. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. -Martin are. - -Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. -Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she -lived at his home for some time after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the -door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him -before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come -with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been -on that occasion. - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him -a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for -Marina, containing notes and checks of donations. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened -them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to -Marina, this sort of thing. - -And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the -house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when -Robert had come to get the remaining items. - -From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained -the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, -and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home -it was not my particular intention to see her. - -I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me -some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and -with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I -wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home. - -I came--perhaps I should interrupt here. - -Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really -best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these -are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be -better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there. - -Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have -any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at -least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last -time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d -to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the -evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call -from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the -assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what? - -Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. -I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home -now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this -terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for -Look Magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good -thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial -remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me -in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with -Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. -Ford was the first time she and I had talked. - -Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's -number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. -Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself -to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that -this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more -fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to -this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning -you." - -Mr. JENNER. They don't know? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" -referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to -friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling -that in time she would certainly contact me again. - -Mr. JENNER. Has she? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on -it. - -Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't -suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving. - -Mr. JENNER. May I see it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for -you. - -The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked -me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't -feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship -had ended so badly. - -Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes? - -Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt -at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went -out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife -what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to -express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was -being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the -Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with -her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where -she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that -occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced -that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am -going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of -this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have -reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. -And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive -her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted -to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any -animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to -convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal -things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to -do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and -regards you well and would be in contact with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would -have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became -uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't -erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue -to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or -what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything -of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it -appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already -been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a -very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer -than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I -just don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home -in Richardson, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape -recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text -onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and -to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad -to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone -wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she -called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice -if Marina made the recording, since Marina---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she -suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go -from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, -I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it -involved making a recording that night. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at -Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the -entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her -furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me -when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite -accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to -have a home of her own. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your -immediate objective of having a recording? - -Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, -also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina -really needed to take care of June, who was there, also. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was -friendly or at least that she was not averse? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I -might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by -making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my -own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had. - -Mr. JENNER. She has? - -Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred. - -Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry -with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had -advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had -understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that -this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having -Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie -as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was -relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. -Thorne. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January. - -Mr. JENNER. Of this year? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had -delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry? - -Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of -men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to -me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all -his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very -detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being -done? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had -signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone -else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he -told me, no, she had not delegated that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected -from her friends, and that had no one---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected -from? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to -me. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an -earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who -spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or -the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was -concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to -Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said---- - -Mr. JENNER. She said---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I -knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on -the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper. - -Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime? - -Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of -attorney. - -Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with -Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed -that? Is there anything you would like to add? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a -brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes -that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone -perfectly free to say anything we wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit -with Marina pleasant? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period -you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt -about you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the -strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the -events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask -directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with -that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. -Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and -Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my -profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she -has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I -don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that -there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a -simple relationship. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, -renewing, it may not be the right word. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct -break. - -Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of -that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked -with her face to face? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do -some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was -going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going -to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to -Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina -implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she -will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart -for Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. -This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom -I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She -has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some -of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a -good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I -was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, -yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he -came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely -fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present -a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, -possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be -unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence -and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of -an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and -state domination. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what -she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating -the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by -the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact -that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that -she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it. - -Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that -until I read it in the paper after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the -paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with -Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, -many of them. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or -desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United -States? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several -occasions that she---- - -Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now. - -Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She -expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to -raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English -and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she -entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June -maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only -learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, -thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her -expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any -particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality. - -Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of -more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of -Spanish, but it is completely gone now. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have -the opportunity. - -Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on -your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like -to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry -on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke--that is your -brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar -itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. February? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written -at the time and some were put in later. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., -Minsk. That was written in later. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year -in there? - -Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February -that has relation to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" -crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure -when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned -later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this -page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that -says, "Everett's?" - -Mr. JENNER. Entered where? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this---- - -Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the -upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the -upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed -by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after. - -Mr. JENNER. After? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on -March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to -say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the -calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read? - -Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought -someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, -and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was -off by a month as to what day it was. - -Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October? - -Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November. - -Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23? - -Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23. - -Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been -November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on -the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise -the date you made an entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name -until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey -and his initial was H? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date. - -Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time--it happens to be also on -March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had -scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred -to in one of the letters as "until the 20th." - -Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Any others? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the -calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, -April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above -the word "dinner." That has been testified to. - -Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on---- - -Mr. JENNER. An entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name -appears, this time written in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April -with an arrow. - -Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which -would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, -picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on -the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words -"Lee and Marina." - -Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs? - -Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee -Wedding Anniversary two years ago." - -Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the -fall. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar -referring to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's take May. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May -1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This -recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we -saw the movie War and Peace. - -Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry---- - -Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New -Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July. - -Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." -This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that -her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the -right date, and that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any -entries relating to the Oswalds on that date? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for -September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning -New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans -to go back to---- - -Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event. - -Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." -meaning New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made? - -Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back. - -Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come -back? - -Mrs. PAINE. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2. - -Could you finish this calendar? - -Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. -There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that -has been referred to in testimony previously. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland -Hospital for the birth of her child? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee -birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday." - -Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland -Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, -when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L -start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down -after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start -working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work -start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be -Parkland. I would be certain it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the -occurrence of the events they seek to record? - -Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made -after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the -same day that he received the acceptance. - -Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that -corrected entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many -people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary -sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following -by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th -that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one -word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 -p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces." - -Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That -means exactly what it says. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered -contemporaneously with the event? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it -sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and -sometimes to record past events after they had occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas -"Junie" she had a clinic appointment. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my -testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other -than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a -doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the -day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means -that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half. - -Mr. JENNER. What day is this? - -Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty -recalling whether Lee actually visited your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he -wasn't out. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November -1. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or -come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. - -Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it -means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind -you that she had a dental appointment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already -referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until -about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at -the Fifth Street address at my home. - -Mr. JENNER. What date is this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the -morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what -home means. - -He was at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. -June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB -clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed -to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" -and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis. - -In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, -"1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I -would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was -changed. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin -to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had -X-rays taken. - -Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Have you identified all three entries now? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental -clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference. - -There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar." - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn? - -Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my -daughter to which I have testified. - -There is also in pencil---- - -Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it -is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month -that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or -next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina. - -This brings us to December. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent -curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that -visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the -purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on -that score? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first -mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth -control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go -with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic -to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further -conceptions if she wished to. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just -casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability -of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, -that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her -own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as -they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size -family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and -Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large -family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and -it is difficult to support a very large family. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting -or session, visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was? - -Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of -the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December. - -There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, -and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these -appointments was kept. - -There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." -The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for -inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already -mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I -might have skipped that. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you did. - -Mrs. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock." - -Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child? - -Mrs. PAINE. June. - -Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well? - -Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should -come in about four weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. That Marina should? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. The baby June? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the -first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should -be older before giving her the first inoculation. - -Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring -the baby for the first time to that clinic? - -Of course, that never took place. - -Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change -the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving -at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation -was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we -decided to maintain that clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been -discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an -expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the -1st of the year? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and -this just adds to that indication. - -Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to -the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, -joining him in Dallas. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. To live with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks". - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. - -No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, -followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the -TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB -children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she -was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November. - -Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on -November 5, 1963---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with -that an entry on December 5, 1963---- - -Mrs. PAINE. December 3. - -Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds -of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her -husband by the first of the year. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that. - -Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in -Irving---- - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, -though they might have records of it. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after -the baby was born. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there -was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had -been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and -she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in -Irving. - -Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street -Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I -discussed where it would be best for her to have her---- - -Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to -just continue in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Because---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Return to the record. - -Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I -don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write -down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic -where you go if a child is ailing. - -Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned -of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building -to the TB clinic. - -Oh, no; I recall now why we went. - -At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of -October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial -Clinic. - -Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June -has--I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except -that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that -collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy. - -Mr. JENNER. It was on Marina's? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby -clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this -connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went -for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my -calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary -for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more -forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then -get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her -children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that -was done. - -My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th -of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final -notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe -I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum -check at Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, -too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret -Service. That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, -have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your -acquaintance with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised. - -Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why? - -Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this -arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well -before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the -Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was -concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether -or not they could pay for it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which -sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15. - -(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - - -The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission -Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that -what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, -and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the -Oswalds? - -The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, -and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the -entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the -address book. - -Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, -the left and right hand. - -Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance. - -Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is -employed? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand. - -Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B. - -Mr. JENNER. I am what? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B. - -Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of -the B page, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met -both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first -page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page -of the D page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first -page of the D page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first -page of the E page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there. - -Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of -the E page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the -F page. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents -Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer -trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I -wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she -did not understand me. And I heard other people--there is a book store -where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and -had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And---- - -Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this -incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't -know English fluently to get a job--if there were a Russian-speaking -community, where Russian could be used. That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G -page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G -page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the -name of her son-in-law appears here. - -Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is? - -Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov. - -Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has -appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else. - -Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there. - -Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to -that in your testimony? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an -address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will -help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to -it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without -that service it will be neither delivered or returned. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with -any of your association with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have -their address. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page. - -Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian -student appears here, Bill Hootkins. - -Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. -Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two -pages--the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite -page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any -entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them? - -Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my -relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and -that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance. - -Mr. JENNER. Next would be--there are some empty pages. We better record -that fact. The reverse side---- - -Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit. - -Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your -address book. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit. - -Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages -that have some entries on them, were not photostated. - -Mrs. PAINE. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the -picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to -the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top -of the list of letters. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here. - -Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top -letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are -entries also. Look at both pages, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret. - -Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their -address or their name correct during the summer. - -Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans -that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, -and you made an entry in your address book? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in -testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, -summer Russian school. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the -sheet, the top letter of which is M. - -Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same -person--Helen Mamikonian. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which -is N. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have -testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, -heretofore? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is -the letter P. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made -because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their -clinic and hospital, for Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which -is Q. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R. - -Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts. - -Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors? - -Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which -refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in -testimony--that is Frolick and Pen Rainey. - -Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled -F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page -is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some -strange reason is also S. It is the opposite---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list -the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known -from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was -chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of -the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top -letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page -to the left of that. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as -U. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance here. - -Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y. - -Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as -testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the -Youngs? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my -relatives. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is. - -Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles -Morris--those are your in-laws? - -Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young. - -Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father? - -Mrs. PAINE. Father. - -Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, -Michael Ralph Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your -husband, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your -reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your -reflections on her personality generally, and her character and -integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she? - -Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to -me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. -She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other -Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word -I didn't understand. - -She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help -around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, -unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I -did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare -meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are -many people, of confidence and lack of confidence. - -She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. -But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn -to pronounce--to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider -that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I -think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself -that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did -not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up -enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she -could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified -to this. - -I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did--I -should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, -as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of -this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and -guarded her own personal privacy. - -She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to -me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times -that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in -Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she -enjoyed. - -She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and -when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for -now as a young mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something -out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America -while she was in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. -I think she meant dreamed while sleeping. - -Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that -she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, -willingness to come to America? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had -married Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly -divorced from Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's -personality, her character, her integrity. - -Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective -beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations -of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, -that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this -faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places -as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were -something to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward -religion as negative or positive? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, -except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this -country? - -Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me -in March of 1963--one of the first times I went to see her at their -apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for -June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. -I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony -without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at -that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't -tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal -certificate, or refer to it freely. - -Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise -occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people -who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young -Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and -attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much -the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this -paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing -many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech -by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And -she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed -interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always -turned to this portion---- - -Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really -expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I -can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years -before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia -originating in America, in the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the -United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and -live in this country? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. - -She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling -in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she -commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and -how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time -prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, -attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with -regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and -then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of -course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only. - -Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think -you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar -as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a -woman. - -Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I -have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my -modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different -sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a -particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess -that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that -feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me. - -Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it -was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked -me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both -because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. -And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly -financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully -convinced her. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or -add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether -Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the -Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. - -Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have -been? - -Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't -exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have -knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different -from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on -the evening of the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station. - -Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police -station? - -Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a -little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, -and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, -standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a -spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her -voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or -most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through -translation from Lee, and that she thought---- - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something -about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about -them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was -said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought -that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would -have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such -indication of dislike from Lee to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why? - -Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it. - -Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to -relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her -groping as to why her husband committed this act? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive -way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the -same way she told me that---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how -could he have said these things or called her attention to these things -with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not -understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, -because of this, could not have assassinated the President? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not -concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting -to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She -also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had -said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she -could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of -hurt. - -Mr. JENNER. Hurt what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about -it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of -caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with -her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could -he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which -would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in -the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and -hurt, rather than defense. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in -June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine -Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, -you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your -class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in -which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of -Russian. Do you recall such a letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I -wrote it. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of -languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Socially? - -Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were -recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others -who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen -pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in -Russian exchange." - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual -skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use. - -Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference -in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word -"calling" in the testimony. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study -of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very -words--intellectual decision? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable. - -Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual -decision. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October -1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those -back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what -was--Essie? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my -mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying -Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you -might have said then? - -Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the -time than I do now. - -Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now -recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, -are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that -development in your life to undertake the study of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you -gave us yesterday, of course. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with -Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of -which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now -recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting -interviews by the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of -Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the -nature of the work, his fellow employees? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work. - -Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the -subject of his military service? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. His political views? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all. - -Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read. - -Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's -treatment of Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of -his dishonorable discharge from the Marines? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. By either she or him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware -of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he -reached Russia and attempted to defect---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at -the time that you met the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he -had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, -the word is. - -Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor -Connally? - -Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your -presence of his dreams or aspirations? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and -aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she -would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I -mentioned it. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the -meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine -articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her? - -Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina -appeared. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score? - -Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading. - -Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading? - -Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that -some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted? - -Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect -of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press -would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With -which I disagreed. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and -had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I -thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten -from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to -her of their sympathy and support. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on -March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions -voluntarily? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us that. - -Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager -whom she is trying to fire. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people -in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful -notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on -the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation -for themselves. And she concurred in that. - -Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction? - -Did she indicate an awareness of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that -she thought that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee -Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, -and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to -obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can -recall that you have not told us? - -Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee -Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being -returned to Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication -of that to me at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of -his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the -summer of 1963 or any other time? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, -that he had obtained or had applied for a passport? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee -Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting -President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations -on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the -Kennedys? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the -attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you -have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them -with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the -Communist Party in the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the -Communist Party in the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers -Party. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's -personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who -sought his own comfort, his own consolation? - -I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, -to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to -prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to -make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he -is reticent, retiring. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as -a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, -therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal. - -But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of -the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that -he was at my house. - -And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the -people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or -watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed -rather than as a social event. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear -on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this -investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, -his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he -visited? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, -or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after -work hours in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been -to the National Indignation Committee meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of -what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, -or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his -time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent -evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the -room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, -guessed that he made use of that opportunity. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you -have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat -lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was -not generally accepted as a man of capacity? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence -in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of -himself, these operating at the same time. - -I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at -the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his -feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, -and he was glad to have it. - -I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert -as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family -and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. -Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were -very legitimate interests. - -Mr. JENNER. In his presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had -said when he was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression -of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a -nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that -is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation -with Mrs. Gravitis? - -Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about -their life in the United States up to that point? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster -than I could follow it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that -conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get -work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work -going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath -the dignity of her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have -just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were -available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what -Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at -the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to -handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the -mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more -this nature, than indicating being above such things. - -Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction -work generally physically difficult? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the -Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some -comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at -least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them -rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth -because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that -conversation that her husband was an idealist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall -whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with -Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that -I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague -impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. -But it is very hard for me to get a hold of. - -Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been -that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a -conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina -admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory. - -Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son? - -Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is -vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken -place. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the -opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League -for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever -joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot -recall having had any contact with that group? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature. - -Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make -any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. -Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not -emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating -yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with -Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests. - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest. - -Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any -such motivation? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it -is in the record. You are a pacificist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as -rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising -a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular -situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my -behavior. - -Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, -or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or -character? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to -the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, -appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles -and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November -22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an -overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, -particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as -to what the actual facts were and are? - -Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that. - -First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on -the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular -story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material. - -I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read -and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story -does not refer to things I personally know about. - -On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty -accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of -what was reported of what I said. - -I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, -that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house -when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet---- - -Mr. JENNER. Perused? - -Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They -are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have -tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very -far. - -I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief -over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much -more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just -makes more poignant my grief. - -Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's -memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were -mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or -whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. -Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not -certain where such a street might be. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry -there is in the diary. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce. - -Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, -otherwise, that rings no bell. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Training? - -Mr. JENNER. Trn. - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ. - -Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality? - -Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. -Organ, 1733 Spring. - -Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me. - -May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, -I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce. - -Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned -was Spring; is that right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in -any respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was -living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends? - -Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday -evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, -as I have testified. - -Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his -quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to -his quarters? - -Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then -sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 -of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket -wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you -would have done? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there. - -And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration -of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of -course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to -consider the situation that I am in and react according to that -situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief. - -I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of -reach of children or out of sight of children. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had -you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, -what is your present thought as to what you might have done with -respect to advising the FBI of its existence? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered -it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in -Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the -assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a -rifle, a deer rifle. - -I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no -consequence or interest to them. - -Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your -knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with -Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of -the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee -Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the -existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was -for any other purpose than deer hunting. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to -November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought -there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey -Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the -Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that -Government? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry. - -Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to -Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when -Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October -1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase. - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect? - -I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn. - -Mrs. PAINE. On what day? - -Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of -October. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that. - -Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the -front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from -Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind -or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out -of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my -impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of -October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, -and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 -to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other -than the green zipper bag? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being -used by him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion -ever one discussed between you and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our -first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, -after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she -told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't -believe in abortion. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards -her avoiding a larger family? - -Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I -think probably I might have covered them all. - -Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you -understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not -seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or -empathy or aversion to it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is -rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may -be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or -governmental system. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative -Ford's inquiry. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in -any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the -whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or---- - -Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or -admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or -philosophy, you have an aversion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course -in college included a few readings from Karl Marx. - -Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to -your work at Antioch College as a student? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto? - -Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course. - -Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was -limited to the college course? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das -Capital, would your answers be the same? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not -want to read it. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it. - -Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course? - -Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would -have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider -yourself a Communist. - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not. - -Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the -American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that -organization? - -Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have -been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the -time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became -on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That -chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist -others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage -them; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of -your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a -conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he -was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be -of interest to the Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what -possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble -eventually? - -Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just -referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that -organization to him personally. - -Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any -time for counsel? - -Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the -Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending -people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt -that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld. - -Mr. JENNER. Or might be? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether -Lee understood that. - -Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to -proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in -this area or subject than you have now given? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the -telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name. - -Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us -how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian -language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you -can. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by -saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary. - -Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native -Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am -talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and -these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one -does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it -gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or -taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with -some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection -that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because -I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and -because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to -do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to -learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know -the language, though I am fluent in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are. - -You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say -as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of -grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old? - -Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary---- - -Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction. - -Mrs. PAINE. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual -conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of -speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in -Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an -8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many -more mistakes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when -you compose a letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can -think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes -occur in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian -language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 -was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months -that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and -certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly. - -Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your -command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you -judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to -vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally? - -Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had -less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language? - -Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or -not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed -to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did -read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian -newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and -magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get -the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive -perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it -and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for -example, pigeon English use of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I -have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what -I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very -large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the -words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off. - -Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as -near as you can tell? - -Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of -the Russian language, or his use of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did -not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time -in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian -was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke -better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall -her saying it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know -whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, -but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was -embarrassed. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in -Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will -be in addition to anything you have already told us. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my -testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I -think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to -obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties -in that connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this. - -Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have -not testified to on that particular subject---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to -Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have -not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in -Russia, that you might have learned through Marina. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for -all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of -time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I -gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there -a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, -as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their -steamship passage. - -Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they -had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by -himself in Minsk, which was unusual. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a -little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. -And I gather that she moved into it after they were married. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that -she lived there. Is this relevant to your question? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, -which I ghosted to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several -times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood -relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that -this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. -Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all -about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also -said was unusual. - -Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense? - -Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to -financially. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a -position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife -did not have to work? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes. - -She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and -her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections -I have of their time in Minsk? - -Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia. - -Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at -Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation -with her, I know she was born 2 months early. - -Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths -of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a -tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge -later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her -upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position? - -Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this -was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina -described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her -grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, -that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and -stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a -neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this -man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her -stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger -brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. -I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked -Leningrad, was proud of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, -or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from -Leningrad to Minsk? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented -to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were -many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have -the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work -there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and -work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move -from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about -the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so--that you -don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You -have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your -papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or -apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you -don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this -country. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the -difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that -she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. -She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people -are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still -remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good -work or they didn't stay on the job. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the -system? Russia from that in the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods, -and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were -much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was -impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to -loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan -things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure -that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You -could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and -necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, -and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she -found here. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was -hospitalized in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it. - -Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her -description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk -hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot -think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any -reference to it--I am not sure I remember now. - -Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction -in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in -my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he -love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself -to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without -occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to -whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been -at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's -part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or -certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an -argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own -views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, -than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more -relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that -her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather -it was a healthy thing. - -Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us -here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and -published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, -that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to -exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or -opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality -formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but -also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe -what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made -of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of -enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, -but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more -tendencies to--among Russian emigres to suspect underlying motives, and -things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of -the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now -relate? - -Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that -I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting -things going on under the surface. - -I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at -Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office -one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad -use intended for it. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's -sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have -about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her -personally. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time. - -Mrs. PAINE. You wish my opinion now? - -It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described -interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and -that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation -in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the -hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some -of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from -the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, -judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by -Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer. - -Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And -I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and -this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she -might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was -going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case. - -Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in -what sense? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a -passport to get him to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that -he applied for a passport? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that -application and the fact that he received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? -That is what I am getting at. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell -the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put -to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to -tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, -as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount -of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of -any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, -just in terms of time. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected--of course, you must -understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were -opened on her examination. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is -a---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what -her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable -one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling -the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in -that judgment by having been present when she could not positively -identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police -station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she -positively identified it here at the Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable -to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her -was her husband's rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now -being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without -fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on -subjects such as that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do -something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever -mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with -respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of -truth or sense of frankness? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as -friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of -course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me -about something is quite different from telling me something that is -misleading to the whole truth of the situation. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure -to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in -it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would -be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with -her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only -explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is -that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what -I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I -would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have -felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee -would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no -need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI -has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with -Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a -shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the -content of a note. - -I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to -someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the -information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I -deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him. - -And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing -on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought -she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely -dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press -is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for -Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir -up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had -Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think -that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor. - -Mr. JENNER. Batista? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes--which is not saying a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in -mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to -what you understand to be the Castro regime. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks -to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly -object to. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand -it, that it is liberal or reactionary? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as -to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New -Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he -said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was -engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure -employment in Houston. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that -period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of -September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th -of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you -ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily -arise? - -Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she? - -Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she -did. - -Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8. - -Mr. JENNER. When did she arise? - -Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep -a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than -her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done -in her own apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later -or earlier? - -Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up -later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself -into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all -correspondence that she received at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she -got a letter from a girl friend, Galya. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered -in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind. - -Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she -reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she -retained them after living in this country? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she -arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you -know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or -Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part? - -Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which -my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds? - -Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately. - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either -you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and -Marina and Lee together? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil -Liberties Union meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even -acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest? - -Mrs. PAINE. With Marina? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee--did you have any? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not really. - -Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching. - -Mr. JENNER. That's about all? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's it. - -Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us -everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about -any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one -hand and Marina on the other? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest -in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in -Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it. - -Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things -that come up in connection with children. - -Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with -either of them, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. No--that's right. You mean which took us to a group with -other people? - -Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She -occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities. - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and -sources of funds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with -Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket -package and the gun in the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any -conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have -related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your -home on the 22d of November, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with -Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time. - -Mr. JENNER. Or use of it. - -I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of -questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry -firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home -or premises. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in -mind. - -I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have -reached the end. - -You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the -Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in -evidence. - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in -the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when -he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in -Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances -or friends in Houston? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said -he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so -or not. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends -in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in -Philadelphia. - -Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go -and look. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while -she was at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from -New Orleans on May 9th. - -Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other? - -Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or -otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been -tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo -handler at $310 per month? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that. $310 a month? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment -at the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been -able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo -handler at $310 per month. - -Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell -through--that there was not that possibility. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the -time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did it come about? - -Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed. - -Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas -School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by -the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency -I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not -available to him. - -Mr. JENNER. But that was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job -itself. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine -Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian." - -(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for -identification.) - -It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed -"Ruth." - -Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be -a translation familiar to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note -accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which -carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and -they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 -the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having -examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it. - -Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and -previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your -recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what -you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian -language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had -forgotten. - -Mr. JENNER. Having that---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description---- - -Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to -add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when -you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially -useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great -deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I -mention some. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, -when? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. -I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in -Russian exchange. - -Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am -opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to -study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. -Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right -here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual -decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought -out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the -expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from -your--inner prompting. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. -Paine--your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the -evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following -morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's -license application bureau. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on -Friday, but came on Saturday morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would think so. - -Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter -before he went to the driver training location. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having -used your typewriter, you mean the evening before? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to -be fairly soon after breakfast. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's -license bureau, he used your typewriter? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the -driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on -Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that -he had come to your home the night before as usual. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and -then you all departed for the driver's license bureau. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more -than one occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About how many? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add -to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just -parking. Three lessons altogether. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk -secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Just English. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question. - -Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those -lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your -husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except your question. - -Mr. JENNER. Pardon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except your question. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with -leading questions. - -Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed -any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a -President or anyone holding high public office? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your -home that you saw such a movie on television? - -Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his -looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to -call the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I -am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal. - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that -incident. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that -discussion. - -Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly -gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection -with his securing employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, -making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of -course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for -the Manner Bakery. - -Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum -Co.? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider -possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a -truck, delivery truck. - -Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or -home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said -anything about whether he was a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join -the Communist Party while he was in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that -evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone -call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the -assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., -which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over -some time to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my -house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and -in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came? - -Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you -completed your full recollection of the incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did -come. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did he come? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at -Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on -Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the -best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following Tuesday. - -My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what -time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have -been making dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another -occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we -certainly planned to get together again. - -Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his -coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question. - -Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you -have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald -incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of -the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which -you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything -of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt -on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any -importance. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you -know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22. - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including -November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you -ought to say or wish to say about that incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two -Secret Service men. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina -one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, -that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the -Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which -were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child -care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently -reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's -"Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily -reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her. - -I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret -Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they -come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, -of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the -other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze -showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper -such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read -it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I -could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. -I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was -written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the -English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than -the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And -that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his -impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. -And I said---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that--I -repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly -have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was -current, and he did not say. - -We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying -that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and -tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, -"I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went -over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he -volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must -have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my -having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that -seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left. - -Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker -having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain -I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported -by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at -the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some -of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office -box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. -Gopadze. - -I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement -to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the -Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently -irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the -executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this -information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, -because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell -anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested -enough to have made such a call himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th -after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in -the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau. - -Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon? - -Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay -as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, -he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian -language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television? - -Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when -you returned? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any -chance stop by a car dealers? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have -been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it -took you to go to the polls to vote that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the -grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my -sight for any length of time. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home -or within your general presence all day. - -Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for -activities of the 10th? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to -which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched -pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening -after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at -the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I -would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me -in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already -said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission -Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that -testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the -top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into -the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. -I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the -furniture in the room around. - -Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is -Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it -inside the secretary. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting -for it to be picked up. - -Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first -noticed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to -that weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during -that period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your -home, to have made a tape recording? - -Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not -work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have -been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop. - -Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his -shop. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At his quarters? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work. - -Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have -made any tape recording. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any -agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of -the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could -not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the -rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun -range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., -residing or staying as a guest in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough -for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can -recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence -at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, -there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he -was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home -unless you walk or have someone drive you. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility -of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose? - -Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly -about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my -vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to--definite plans to -teach for the summer. - -She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there -might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there -were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of -Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite -excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she -referred to it. - -After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to -be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such -an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged. - -Mr. JENNER. And you so told her? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter. - -Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this -letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I -want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your -tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite -detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been -very helpful. - -On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our -appreciation. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help. - -Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time. - -Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition. - -Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist -upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel -to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I -now put that question to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that -typed up for me to read before going back to Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read -before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to -Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested -to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right -to do so. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - -The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, -1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. -Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the -deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the -Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on -Saturday. - -Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear -you? - -Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are -about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm. - -Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe -Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service. - -We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's -home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the -presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's -full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 -feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining -room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast -corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast -corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house -consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have -just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That -particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West -Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north -wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom -in that neither of these windows is a picture window. - -Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture -window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of -it--it's around 43 inches wide. - -Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then? - -(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements -discussed.) - -Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you -recite it, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches -high. - -Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches -high? - -Agent HOWLETT. Right. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches? - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the -curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, -as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe -you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in -the evidence? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best. - -(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to -comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed -himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate -as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of -the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he -made his second visit to you, and have you done so? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I -cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of -my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's -other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that -should be easily determined by asking the repair shop. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, -at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now -see Mr. Howlett's car. - -Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. -I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the -picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue. - -Mrs. PAINE. Street. - -Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is -that, an elm or oak? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak. - -Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is -in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, -John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile -is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb -at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and -cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a -cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of -Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of -the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans -substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which -is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home -that's not now used. - -Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year. - -Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, -and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year. - -It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you -last fall? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream -automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the -west side of the Paine premises? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check -me on this standing where I am, looking out this window. - -It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on -either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described. - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles? - -Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both -automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of -the numbers. - -Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let -alone make out the numbers? - -Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now. - -(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as -well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore -mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises -outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children -and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to -the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being -conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the -taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or -described my observations looking through the picture window first on -Fifth Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and -the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could -not be seen in the way of a license plate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for -a second time to interview you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that -day--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st -of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm -not sure--absolutely certain of that. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number -of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home. - -Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence -and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by -implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on -the FBI automobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have -drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview -in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on -the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I -noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the -street on the first interview, and it seems to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that. - -Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to -his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point -that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their -visits. - -Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car -down the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first time. - -Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which -way was "down the street," to the west or to the east? - -Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term? - -Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best -recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the -Ponders used to live in. - -Mr. JENNER. The whom? - -Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders. - -Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]? - -Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the -brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east. - -Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and -whatever it is--you know, Westbrook. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad? - -Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the -Randles. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other -way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he -parked when he first came to talk with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that -day--November 1st? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two -men drive away? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I -did. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license -plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November -1st? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision? - -Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate -could have been seen with 20-20 vision? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that -recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty -left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my -attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did -not notice whether he passed in front of the house. - -Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with -normal vision. - -Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix -definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen -the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to -whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have -you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have none. - -Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as -you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet -away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of -your home as we have now noted on the fifth. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower? - -Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on -Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before -dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings -when he was here? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower -in any event on the morning of November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of -November 22d, except an empty coffee cup. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of -yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north -side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the -back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom -where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a -noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it? - -Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not -noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to -get that--whether you could hear it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it. - -Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might -well awaken you if it's turned on? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when -you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower -had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have -noticed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is. - -Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning -and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then -gone? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your -awakening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I -awoke. - -(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements -in the hallway of the Witness Paine.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 -feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south -at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, -9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide. - -The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the -garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 -bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth -Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, -I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, -am I not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the -combination kitchen-dining room? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on -the left is a doorway entering into your living room? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door -jamb to the right or west? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what? - -Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the -outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb -of the garage door, however, let's get the outside. - -Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside -jamb. - -Mr. JENNER. So that the space west---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate -the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before -I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how -wide is that? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door. - -Mr. JENNER. And how high? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8-1/2 inches and it would actually be -classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall -which lights the light in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the -door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for? - -Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area. - -Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light -switch appeared, did it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which -included that area. - -Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it. - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to -the center of the light switch? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6-3/4 inches to the center of the -light switch. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the -FBI photograph. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the -garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full -door facing onto Fifth Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I -arrived? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first -there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. -Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. -Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your -garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on? - -Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner -and turned on the light.) - -Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you -enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches? - -Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from -the dining room area? - -Agent HOWLETT. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less -than a hand's length away, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage -in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to -the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape -against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth -Street. What is the length to the dining room wall? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across. - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of -your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe -it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except -for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from -east to west; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep. - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area -wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the -floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. And I judge--well, John Joe, we might as well measure that -while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to -the ceiling? - -Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 -inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The -opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches -tall. - -Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the -blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, -which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time -have been placed in the storeroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so. - -Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open -to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the -storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents -for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in -there in the storeroom. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When you -hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth -birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the -blanket wrapped package in the storeroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, -necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small -storeroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that -small storeroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday -evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described -last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in -that small storeroom had it been there? - -Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that -there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as -I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, -the length of your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet? - -Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some -considerable period of time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion---- - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now? - -Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out. - -Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over. - -Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the -fall of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never have. - -Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I -have never tried to lift it with my arms up. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your -home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat -out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan. - -Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on -the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in -the ceiling? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, -if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up -there, correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. It could have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of -1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of -the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, -did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your -house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that. - -Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were -present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street -side back to your dining room area, does it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the -living room to the wall of the house on the west? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our -presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you -noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of -Counsel Jenner.) - -The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of -the work bench, halfway to the band saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the -center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west -wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, -a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then -underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk. - -Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left -and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench -also--are all these things now in the position they were on November -22d? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from -October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position. - -Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch -in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west -wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is -piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench -in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, -Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition -it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the -outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage. - -Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from -the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place. - -There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the -west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece -of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the -band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, -resting on the garage floor itself, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space? - -Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches. - -Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate -"Machinery Sales" and the like on it. - -The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the -band saw is what, John Joe? - -Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a -piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and -I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and -place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's it. - -(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of -Counsel Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed -that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was -when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November -22. - -Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how -many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and -ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. -Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. -My recollection is not that clear. - -Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best -recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of -the desk underneath the work bench? - -Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than -that piece is. - -Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the -outside edge of the package was. - -Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge? - -Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside? - -Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory -as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was -when I stood here or here? - -Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. -Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work -bench? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, -that would be the width of the package between those two boards. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath -the work bench to the nearest edge of the package? - -Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside -edge, or most easterly edge of the package? - -Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when -was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the -second time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and -that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer -just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your -recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the -garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to -and including the 22d of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be -better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed -it. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in -the vicinity of the rotary saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the -east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but -between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band -saw; am I correct about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece -of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And how wide? - -Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw -itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, -measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion -of the saw table? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so -that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and -inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage -door, which is down in place? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch -package and relocate it where you first saw it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't -remember whether it went east or west or north or south. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west -or north or south, where was it when you saw it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw -table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings -of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was -either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described. - -The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is -suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east -wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw -table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and -the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing -underneath there. - -Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the -package on the floor earlier--the first time? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it -was. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those? - -Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers. - -Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of -the saw table. They are themselves how wide? - -Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch. - -Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist -of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches. - -Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet -1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is -in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the -package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was -filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space -between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest -of drawers? - -Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table. - -Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped -package was. - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on -the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can. - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the -saw table or out towards the front of their boxes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in -your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a -box, which is on the surface of the work bench. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in -turn tied or wrapped with string? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I -have in my hand, that is, this ball of string? - -Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as -heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has -exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will -cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine -Exhibit No. 271." - -(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits -Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, -Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string -which the witness has identified, is it not? - -Agent HOWLETT. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree -with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to -get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible. - -Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the -same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November -22, 1963, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the -policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, -or someone with the policeman? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in -the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who -first entered. I would guess it had been myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the -garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a -rifle located in the home? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that -occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the -police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that -most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the -room where Marina was staying. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate -your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you -walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if -any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back -here at the garage entrance? - -(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, -entering the garage.) - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many -policemen were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two or three. - -Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose? - -Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things -were in your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead -garage door? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east. - -Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen -there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described -to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, -however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that---- - -Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most -of the Oswald things were located. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage -facing south? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened? - -Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a -rifle or weapon, and I said, "No." - -Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at -the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away -from the work bench; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, -"No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this---- - -Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here -facing south. - -Mr. JENNER. She was facing you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, she was. - -Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end -of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, -which was in place? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she -knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time -previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which -she indicated the blanket roll. - -Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll? - -Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection -is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then -translated. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped -package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto? - -Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket. - -Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she -had said. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did -you feel anything hard? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it? - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or -a tent pole or anything as bulky as that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the -policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about -in its center, having in mind its length? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and -horizontal? - -Mrs. PAINE. It wilted. - -Mr. JENNER. It drooped? - -Mrs. PAINE. It folded. - -Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was -nothing in the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. In the blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were -still on the blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the -Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it? - -Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of -the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as -I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large -secretary desk in the dining area. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what -looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that -you had in your home on November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased -the previous wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of -this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet -that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide? - -Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, -please. We will now measure this. - -Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch. - -Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you -please cut this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.) - -Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just -cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." -Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter? - -(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine -Exhibit No. 272," for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is -startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the -Commission hearing last week. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such -articles. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, -some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that? - -Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on -November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you -as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"? - -(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. -273," for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk -secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white -string? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on -this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string -you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to -refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about -the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package? - -Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string -on the package, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be -marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274." - -(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. -274," for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand -now. Did you obtain that from that drawer? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record. - -Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the -Mexico note. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will -identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read -it the previous day. - -Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the -desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the -wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located? - -Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that -Sunday morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk -secretary was, if it is not here? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the--the middle -of the north wall of the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa -or a couch? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that -position? - -Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk -secretary. - -Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your -living room; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the -afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the -police called at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living -room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway -entering into your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were -sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located -at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all -the other furniture in the room. - -Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the -Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it -and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture? - -Mrs. PAINE. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of -November--that same day that I read the note. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to -move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of -the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary? - -Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when -you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing -toward Fifth Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the -south wall, drawn back? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed. - -Mr. JENNER. They were not closed? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each -side. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the -television that you did not notice the police come in to your door? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door. - -Mr. JENNER. Why not? - -Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and -Marina was to the west. - -Mr. JENNER. She was to your right? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed -them coming? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it -[at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. -Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered -the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the -driveway side, which is on the west? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were -parked to the west of my driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the -door was closed---- - -Mrs. PAINE. As it was. - -Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed. - -Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he -agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching -from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not -have seen them as they approached from the west? - -Agent HOWLETT. No. - -Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police -had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the -door? - -Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened -the door. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here. - -(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by -Counsel Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, -John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the -doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite -these facts? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places -designated by Counsel Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a -moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some -bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close -to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree -which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade -tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a -moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of -the home to the sidewalk? - -Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. - -Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the -reporter what that distance is? - -The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the -depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area -is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area? - -Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west? - -Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we -have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late -afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home -from what direction? - -Mrs. PAINE. From the east. - -Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see -some considerable distance of a good block down the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your -surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the -premises? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this -block--that's across Westbrook. - -Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, -which is named Westbrook? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's how far? - -Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down. - -Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, -their child? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the -house. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn. - -Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into -that a little bit. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the -record at this point.) - -Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you -sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, -late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came -to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and -parked your car? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the -driveway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile -when we actually exchanged greetings. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by -surprise or at least unexpectedly? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized. - -Mr. JENNER. Apology for what? - -Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised? - -Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say so? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her -attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was -unexpected as far as she was concerned? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As well as yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage -that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or -deep freeze in the garage, do you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right -up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion -of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage -dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct? - -Agent HOWLETT. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep. - -Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of -the door jam, westerly; is that correct? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall. - -Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze? - -Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze -that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens? - -Agent HOWLETT. That's right. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style. - -Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present -recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the -number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary -course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you -would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which -I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is one. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks? - -Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, -Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes? - -Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a -box. They are what I call a large hollow block. - -Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are -sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play. - -Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden -blocks, does it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes -as a block and which I describe as a box? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long. - -Mr. JENNER. How deep? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on -the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call -a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one -side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not -correct? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five -sides and open on the top. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the -record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here. - -Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box. - -Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that -evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. That evening. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you? - -Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. And where were you working? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I -had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the -brush. - -Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end? - -Mrs. PAINE. The north end. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the -evening, am I correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you -entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take -them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to -lacquer them? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one -was in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went -into the garage to lacquer? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area. - -Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw. - -Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw? - -Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance -to the garage---- - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door? - -Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door -to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this -particular occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when -you opened the door, if anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on. - -Mr. JENNER. The light where? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. The overhead light? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the -ceiling of the garage, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is. - -Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center. - -Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks -like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs -downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the -ceiling; is that not right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in -place on the night in question? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what -watt it is? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of -the white walls. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say -"garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the -inside facing, which I see from this doorway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off. - -Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that -direction, had it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality. - -Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that -direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't -using the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at -that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on? - -Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on. - -Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock -that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion -that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart -from this particular circumstance you have now related? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in -and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some -time between the dinner hour and the time I entered. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your -kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the -fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes -and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually -impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without -your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would think so. - -Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the -dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area? - -Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the -kitchen-dining area at all. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to -9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, -occasionally, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, -at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed -preparations. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been -in your garage without your knowing it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would -know it then too. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that -bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured -quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you -necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making. - -Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully -in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, -coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the -Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that -evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in -the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and -other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you -weren't present when they did that, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of -a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits -and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the -President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by -the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, -"Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the -home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on -Beckley Street in Dallas. - -Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice -each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, -whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as -the case might be. - -The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears -either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which -indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the -microfilm number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our -attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to -November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see -anything that I had seen or have since seen. - -Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you -don't miss anything. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is mine. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what -is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it. - -Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what? - -Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers. - -Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, -from the description--it is microfilm 198. - -Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, -the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the -one we have picked out--you have picked out? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all -those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your -home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of -those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk. - -"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, -but that's what I recall having seen. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen? - -Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment. - -Let's go off the record here for a moment. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper. - -Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy -pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring. - - - LITERATURE - - _Name_ _Place _Microfilm - found_ No._ - - Application, the Militant Irving 380 - Application slip for FPCC Beckley 416 - Application slips for FPCC (187) Irving 96 - Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," Irving 330 - by James Cannon. - Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity Irving 319 - with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC. - Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to Irving 307 - the U.S.," published by FPCC. - Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 Irving 308 - University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar." - Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy Irving 304 - and Sectarianism." - Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C. Irving 329 - Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 201 - Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 202 - Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Irving 313 - Paul Sarte - Booklet, list of Russian and Communist Irving 309 - literatures publications. - Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right Irving 311 - to Travel" - Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 Irving 320 - Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the Irving 310 - committed of Democratic Spain. - Book, Russian Irving 84 - Books, Russian (18) Irving 78-83 - Book, Russian Language No. 732648 Irving 112 - Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Irving 305 - Josepth Hanson - - 144 - - Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 Irving 324 - Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" Irving 318 - Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 - Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 - Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 - Historical," by Keiber and Nelson. - Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 - Historical" - Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., Beckley 415 - New Orleans. - Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Irving 335 - St., New Orleans. - Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Beckley 414 - St., New Orleans, La. - Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Irving 97 - Join the FPCC - Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Irving 300 - Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch. - Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Beckley 405 - Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense - comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962. - Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Beckley 401 - Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to - Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962. - Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Beckley 412 - Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., - letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963. - Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Beckley 430 - Ala., to Lee and Marie. - Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, Beckley 413 - re: Ability to translate. - Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, Beckley 400 - New Orleans, to Oswald. - Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Beckley 406 - Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, - 1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald. - Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of Beckley 403 - FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963. - Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, Beckley 407 - FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, - New Orleans. - - 145 - - Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit Beckley 429 - House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead. - Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, Irving 363 - 1963 - Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Beckley 445 - Party, to Oswald. - Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Beckley 438 - Press letterhead, to Oswald. - Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager Beckley 404 - of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald. - Magazine, "Friends Word News" Irving 87 - Magazine, "The Militant" Irving 85 - Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Irving 322 - Sept. 12, 1963. - Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in Irving 198 - black standing behind what appears to be - a master of ceremonies dressed in white. - Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Irving 191 - Minsk, Russia. - Newspaper, "The Worker" Irving 86 - Newspaper, clipping, re: the President Irving 120 - Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. Irving 98 - Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, Irving 270 - showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs. - John R. Hall. - Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and Beckley 417 - cartoon regarding defectors). - Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Beckley 413 - Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing - peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway, - N.Y.C. - Newspapers (7), Russian language Irving 381 - Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Irving 380 - Worker, with return envelopes to publishers - News Press. - - 146 - - Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by Irving 317 - James P. Cannon. - Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Irving 303 - Lamont - Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Irving 99 - Curliss Lamont - Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School Irving 312 - of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro. - Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Irving 315 - Rocan - Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover Irving 325 - Pamphlets, Russian Irving 89-94 - Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document Irving 192 - Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, Beckley 411 - fall term, 1963. - Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled Irving 321 - "Automation, a Job Killer." - Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4) Irving 366 - Photos, Fidel Castro (6) Irving 366 - Photo, Fidel Castro Irving 368 - Photo, female Russian workers in radio Irving 332 - factory - Photo, Russian workers Irving 331 - - 147 - - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is -a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the -place--wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., -and have you touched it since you came home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your -recollection on November 21, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in -my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is? - -(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as -stated by Counsel Jenner.) - -Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of -the north edge of the workbench. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown -wrapping paper, shorter and thicker? - -Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a -pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian -blinds. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. -Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which -appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about -6-1/2 inches high and about 6-1/2 inches through. - -While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the -package and it is a little bit irregular. - -Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a -shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north -edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I -have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the -shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what -distance? - -Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package. - -Mrs. PAINE. While you are up there, measure the one behind you. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will. - -Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west? - -Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package -down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will -open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains. - -The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence -and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. -Howlett, what does the package contain? - -Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 -inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not? - -Mrs. PAINE. They are. - -Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper -around your home at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had -bought. I have never had a supply of this variety. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her -package back the way it was? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record. - -Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it -has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, -and "Will call--M. R. Paine." - -Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore -identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this -particular package when it was delivered to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the -first instance? - -Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but -that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came -in this package, I have no idea whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the -blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to -you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears -on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is? - -Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to -do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that -right? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just -described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping -paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we -have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the -work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is -also on the shelf. - -Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is how long? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now. - -Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package -we have already described? - -Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north -end. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds -which I did have in the southeast bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package -down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here. - -(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel -Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, -and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades. - -Mrs. PAINE. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the -windows in the southeast bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how -wide? - -Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other one is? - -Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring -window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, -are white or cream colored, and are plastic? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade -is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade -spring. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as -did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. -4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are -wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper -that you keep in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that -shelf? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you -had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light -and might not deserve their own wrapping. - -Mr. JENNER. You, of course--you did state it was possible they might -not be separately wrapped? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found -the first two packages? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the -upper one on which we found the two packages? - -Agent HOWLETT. About 10-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a -butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be -a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett--how many do you have there? - -Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a -kind of buff color or cream colored. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and -see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the -curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you -please? - -While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage -floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, -at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in -Washington last week. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in -color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It -was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living. - -Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't -find any other curtain rods. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken -down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which -you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your -garage during the fall of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at -any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits -and we will return them after they have been placed of record? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark -Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276. - -(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter -as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't -have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the -record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad -one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very -light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy -tin? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into -the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended -tip they are---- - -Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. -Those ends extending are turned up how many inches? - -Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain -rod. - -Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures -about 2-3/8 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," -do they not, a long "U"? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item -to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence -between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me? - -Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation. - -Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? - -Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation. - -Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain -that remark? - -Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the -exception of one Christmas card from Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you -transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear -only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation -for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them -off. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT - - -Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved -Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and -be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this -deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Agent HOWLETT. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. State your name, please? - -Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United -States? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, -brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of -Mrs. Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted -me, have you not? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the -appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the -reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the -conditions? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the -various measurements that are now recorded in this record? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called -figures or ordered descriptions? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, -to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And made in your presence? - -Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window. - -Mr. JENNER. Which window? - -Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there--yes. - -Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, -and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. High or wide? - -Agent HOWLETT. Wide--would you like for me to check it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might check it. - -Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade -we have just measured. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, -Mrs. Paine.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - - -Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated -here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they -are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Since November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven -pages? - -Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page. - -Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine -Exhibit No. 277." - -(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for -identification.) - -Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence -between November 22 and the first date here--December 27. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions -about the exhibit first? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of -translations prepared by you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which -you transmitted or delivered? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other -fashion to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that -way? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or -method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as -Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top -indicating when the translation was made. - -Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals -were dispatched? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later. - -Mr. JENNER. How much later? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January -26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, -December 28 and January 3. - -Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I -cannot now find. - -Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared -the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you -wished, you then wrote the final answer? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the -time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was -written and sent. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed -carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit -277? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, -after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions -are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive -character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced -Exhibit 277--what are those papers? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence -there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which -was December 27. - -Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if -you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which -appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to -Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and -checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these -via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but -I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second -one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in -Washington. - -There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked -December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me -to Marina on the same date, December 21. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card? - -Mrs. PAINE. They crossed. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording -of the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing -it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't -serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content -of my note, which I have no copy of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the -situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I -say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from -myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I -didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her. - -Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last -week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered -something to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had come containing -contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina -and arrived at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having -talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked -with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also -brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas -gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had -previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate -for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside -had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", -and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also -brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family. - -Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct. - -Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the -house--the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture -window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. - -Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the -Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas -with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on -your typewriter repaired? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, -found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about -that incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the -Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key -repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that -occasion as well? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children -went in, and the check stub is dated October 18. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when -you picked up the typewriter? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, -and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday -that I took the typewriter in. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had the -typewriter repaired as of that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced. - -Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect Russian -symbol--Russian language symbol? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee -Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the -circumstances? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching -Russian to one student. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would -like to add to the record. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at -the moment. - -Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, -since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my -attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a -bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have -been heretofore advised? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There is nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record. - -In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that -is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash -as distinguished from check or money orders? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that -came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service -as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had -not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I -therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as -cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance -of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances? - -Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne---- - -Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face? - -Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was -signing, and by this I meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply -to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I -assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a -check written by me to her. - -Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin? - -Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the -hand of John Thorne. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth -Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of -that page, are you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter -which appears on that page? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that -letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, -accompanying it was a check? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope. - -Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated -December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to -Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A. - -(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an -endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit -277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of -remitting cash gifts by check? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which -purports to be and which is a check. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other -document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is -the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B. - -(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit -No. 277-B, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature -appears as the maker of each of those checks? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you -by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is -there an endorsement on the reverse side? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose hand? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand. - -Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement -"For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said. - -Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when -they were returned to you, by your bank? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December -28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check -No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B. - -(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A -and 277-B.) - -Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain -these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of -the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to -return them all to you at once. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be -helpful to the Commission in this investigation? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of -this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with -you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record -sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record -sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has -been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the -record by Mr. Howlett or by me? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear -of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining -room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, -completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone -fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children -playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting -out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to -the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to -west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There -is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the -clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line -of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19-1/2 feet south of -the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one -at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in -circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much -smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick. - -The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has -a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have -recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground. - -Is that correct, Mr. Howlett? - -Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the -ground. - -Mr. JENNER. I see--I recited it 3 inches and that was in error. - -Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on -the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have -testified this evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated -it would you read the translation into the record? - -Mrs. PAINE. The translation says: - - "DEAR RUTH: - - Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and - wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very - sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not - my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better - changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the - very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you - did for me. - - Sincerely, - MARINA. - - P.S.--Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little - June. I kiss you, Marina." - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine. - -Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which -reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front -of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now -have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing -which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing. - -Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at -Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting -on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is that? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope -itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified--she was able to write English -to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now -hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the -envelope? - -(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit -Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was -except for the reporter's identification, when you received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the -envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed. - -Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its -contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you -received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain -the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is fine. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been -identified this evening. - -Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to -add, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point. - -Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the -Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in -your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I -recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large -beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west -your yard in the rear a clothesline. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19-1/2 feet south -of the back porch--of the back fence? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when -you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the -midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to -advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in -connection with events that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had -been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I -told her. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the -clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the -same position now as those posts were on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing -the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I -reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had -announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the -School Book Depository. She recalled that to me in the evening and -told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I -don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the -Commission hearings--I have recalled it since. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled -"Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination -of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I -asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and -papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49--is that an -affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city -police? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in -your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of -November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh -your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh -your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your -testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the -interview of the Dallas city police with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was -it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time. - - "AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT - - THE STATE OF TEXAS - COUNTY OF DALLAS - - BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said - county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth - Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, - after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have - lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, - Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the - early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I - heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I - was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald - and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to - visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me - because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two - weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. - Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I - was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He - came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. - Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with - his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at - the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. - Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm - yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when - he left for work. - - (S) RUTH HYDE PAINE." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to -be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar -with her signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh -your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what -occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not -already testified. - -Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a -statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the -Dallas City Police Station? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page -46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what -was said, is it accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony -or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that -she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was -not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her -husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. -This is what I particularly remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the -blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here. - -Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle -in it." - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and -saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already -that her husband had one. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred -to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we -thought we might ask you before we close. - -Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the -kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the -contents of that drawer? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to -the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents -of that drawer. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished--is there anything you -wish to add? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at -7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal -appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative -with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this -sometimes gruesome work. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here -in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do -so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it -will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, -since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, -I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your -testimony of last week as well. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could -then sign this deposition. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you -on Saturday of last week. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE - -The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley -J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your -deposition to find out some of the background information that you have -about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part -of 1963, up to the time of the assassination. - -We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of -the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was -allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at -the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in -your garage in Texas. - -I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge -of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money -or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you -or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to -the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but -before I do that, will you state your name for the record. - -Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed? - -Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located? - -Mr. PAINE. Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which -that occurred? - -Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was? - -Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has -kept a calendar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the -assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to -other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time? - -Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's -house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this -couple who were represented as he having been an American who had -defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was -sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet -him at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? - -Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates -from my wife but I think that was in February. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the -conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more -in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you -met him? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our -house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding -the second meeting with Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby -early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have -her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help -of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her -visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in -New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and -picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was -the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and -had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about -a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, -and I guess Lee came out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at -the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, -Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a -Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper. - -So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to -recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because -I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his -voice on the telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first -separated? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October? - -Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in Grand Prairie? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the -period that you were separated particularly during the period of -September-October? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week -was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The -garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I -would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday -accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight -or did you just come---- - -Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in -your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the -eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of -1963? - -Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent -a couple of months, the end of July, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I -don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or -the date she arrived at Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said -brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also -brought Oswald's personal and household effects? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of -the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but -whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to -take out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip? - -Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- - -Mr. PAINE. Go ahead. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is -important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we -could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. -If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the -date they came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage -toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any -reason? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things -there, and the tools were there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see -a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had -had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their -things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and -in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the -way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string -and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the -Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't -look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I -picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it -was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping -equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it -up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the -floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know -what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered -with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that -wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping -equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and -that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing. - -I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping -equipment has something this way and one going off 45 deg., a short stub -like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I -thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was -trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because -that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as -far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those -various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it -was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, -enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but -just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I -visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that -must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45 deg. angle. I can draw -you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a -rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a -yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of -what you visualized to be in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. -I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one -time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out -of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only -thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which -looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different -pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel. - -Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something -that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual -package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in -the package. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first -picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of -as an iron pipe of some sort. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask -him to mark this as Exhibit 1. - -(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".) - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you -that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be -a solid piece or just what was your feeling? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. -I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't -hold together enough. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it? - -Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- - -Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, -that was too symmetrical. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical? - -Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are -symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here -this wider area had to be offset somehow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I -first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, -then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of -camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle -or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put -a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, -to the shape of the thing. - -I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts -in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I -just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full -extent of my thinking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be? - -Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you -indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how -long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have -indicated. - -Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a length of 37-1/2 inches. - -Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you -mean by that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly? - -Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there -might have been any paper inside of it? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. -Nothing crinkled, no sound. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that -there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they -didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by -that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping -equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection -with this particular package? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I -mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had -been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped -with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it -looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the -ground. - -I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of -camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, -at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I -drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another -pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe---- - -Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here -or I didn't know where the other pipe might be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked -it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes -inside the package. - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you -see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way -it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that -there was more than one pipe inside. - -Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't -move one part with respect to another. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly? - -Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was -wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two -pipes trying to hold still in the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not -being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline -or something, I think that would go around the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here? - -Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end -and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are -indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that -it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was -not as wide? - -Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because -I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was -folded over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was -folded over at the other end opposite from "A"? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different -thoughts at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the -first drawing that you made on No. 1? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be -much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end -"B" and drawing in another line. - -Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, -between 7 and 8 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C". - -Mr. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" -on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" -at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record -straight as to what we have been talking about? - -Mr. PAINE. [Marking.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, -the length and the height. - -Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around -it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe -went actually through my fingers and thumb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it? - -Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it -when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is -the thumb. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has sketched---- - -Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with -the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand -indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about -2 inches thick, including the blanket. - -When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was -wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was -just a fold of the blanket at that end? - -Mr. PAINE. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly -wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall -exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the -strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here -somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"? - -Mr. PAINE. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember -this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the -time so I was thinking about that. - -I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too -asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have -been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end -of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember -that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well -wrapped up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated -that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on -our drawing. - -Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark -"D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was -folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us? - -Mr. PAINE. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on -an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt -wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the -saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned -not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have -indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and -a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the -package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn. - -What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package? - -Mr. PAINE. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this -pipe here shown didn't--the package. I must draw another package then. -The package must have sloped. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember how it was? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a -blanket, I mean it was a--reconstruct the blanket or something but this -is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the -outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't -think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual -separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my -mind into this package. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new -package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should -have gone right to the end of the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the -edge of the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a---- - -Mr. PAINE. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside -of it, I didn't particularly arrange it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as -Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw -in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck -me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is -the mood of the colors there. - -I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But -green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in -the garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, -do anything you want to with it. - -Mr. PAINE. I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks -cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very -good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the -night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more -mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this -absolutely. - -It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good -candidate for, my memory of the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have them on when you were working in there? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your -saw? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had lights near your saw, didn't you? - -Mr. PAINE. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that -shines on the table. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is no light directly over the saw? - -Mr. PAINE. No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of -the room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket -around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine -the colors of the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. -I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue -spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the -impression I had of the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And those blue spots would have been a part of the -pattern of the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, -Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the -blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the -garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious -I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal -privacy, so I don't investigate something. - -Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free -to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his -belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. -I remember that feeling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like -the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is a good---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is similar? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with -brown thread, is it not? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Around some of the edges at any rate? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket -that was in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When -I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was -found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as -the next exhibit on this deposition. - -(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for -identification.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which -has been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or -different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you -saw it in the garage, if you remember? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good -candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by -which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive -cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the -manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually -remember whether it was or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be similar? - -Mr. PAINE. That is about as good as could come to my memory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With two strings? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your -attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you -notice that pin? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference -table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the -rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on -November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these -materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string -something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your -garage? - -Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the -whole---- - -Mr. REDLICH. By "this end" what do you mean? - -Mr. PAINE. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had -wrapped it and pulled the blanket over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when -you remember it in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want you just to continue to work with it and take -your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the -fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other. - -Mr. PAINE. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did -with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. -I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too -thick to do it that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will -ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be -similar to the one you saw in your garage? - -Mr. PAINE. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it -is not quite big enough here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this end, you are referring to the end -marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt -end of the rifle, isn't that right? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that end is too thick. - -Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we -have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick -enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package? - -Mr. PAINE. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same -thickness, calling the width from type--calling the rifle and the scope -of the rifle the width. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The width? - -Mr. PAINE. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the -thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of -the package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to -move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much -that I can't grab that feel of pipe. - -That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been -two pipes there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the -"A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you -remember the package in your garage or the same width? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt -end of the rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The "B" end? - -Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that appears to be thicker---- - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Than the package that was in your garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is -what, not as thick nor not as wide? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering? - -Mr. PAINE. Quite so tapered. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that approximately the length of the package that you -remember in your garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or -another, I don't know what he did with this end. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the "A"? - -Mr. PAINE. There was a string, there were two strings on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you estimated the length of the package before, -would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on -the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in -this particular package? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right -if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was -the kind of length that I would grab there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if -you folded this flap over here at "A"? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us -what it is? - -Mr. PAINE. That is 41 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after going through the process that we have gone -through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you -think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a -package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight -of that package? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you -thought it weighed? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after -the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether -or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the -moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether -the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I -haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package -where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than -one tube. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did picture more than one tube---- - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to -be--there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture -therefore that it was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say---- - -Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the -top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn -there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as -well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the -Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to -have been used to assassinate the President? - -Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination -if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he -was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to? - -Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of -the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By the what? - -Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually -small clapboard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being? - -Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have -them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the -object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but -after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope -on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you -lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and -Peggs on November 24, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is -an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That -night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the -police station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24? - -Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday. - -Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I -spent at the police station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can -recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day -of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on -that day? - -Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police -took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an -affidavit right in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. PAINE. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from -the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he -had no--by leave of the police that he could do this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent? - -Mr. PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior -to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I -don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not -remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed -without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news -reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the -police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because -they are more objectionable. I mean there is more---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the -name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on -November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station? - -Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as -best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you -stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, -the night of the 22d? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life -reporters were there, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. At Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I -was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at -night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what -happened after they left? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 -o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving -apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the -day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I -was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I -would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left -at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the -Bell Helicopter plant on that day? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has -asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I -don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the -helicopter plant? - -Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall -previously I thought about it and I said, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police -came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was -out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas -Police Department? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at Irving that evening? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, -spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the -next morning. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on -Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was -wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this -rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before? - -Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize -that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he -spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he -couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I -didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a -rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to -Marina Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that -time? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your -wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina -Oswald at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify -the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a -rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but -didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is what---- - -Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or -this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it -was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. -She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package -wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it -accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when -she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a -rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that -effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about -the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that -interview with the Dallas police? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that -Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to -her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a -sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which -is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything -like that before? - -Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, -a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I -can truthfully remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a -device---- - -Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all -whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you -have any idea what this might be? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this -around your own house or garage in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar -to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and -I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart -rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. -Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and -see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made -to wrap the complete rifle. - -Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the -same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes -the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't -have got the sense of pipe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the -rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems -natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the -rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping -the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package? - -Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, -offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding -shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some -fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly -with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The -barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel -had to be sticking out beyond the stock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be -sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in -the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly -enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was -put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that -there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the -FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure -it was a rifle in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle -as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on -the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe -I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the -rifle was suggested as an object. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, -in fact, a rifle in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of -a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, -after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 -is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual -sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been -discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been -treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated -is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are -concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any -event. - -Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of -paper, the difference is pretty slight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers, -however? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would -say there is a difference. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp -than 364? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to -me this is more common. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364? - -Mr. PAINE. 364, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of -paper? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags -made of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142 -and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your -garage or at your home in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to -the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. -We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure -all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or -something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods? - -Mr. PAINE. These expanding rods that are---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no idea where they came from? - -Mr. PAINE. Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in -the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down -because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking -them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, -I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a -question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any -particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply -of it, wrapping paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You -say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the -house. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are -junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work -bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on -them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might -be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades -in the bedrooms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember? - -Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new -floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I -thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the fall of 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain -rods themselves are 32-1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide -together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they -are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their---- - -Mr. PAINE. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have, -I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that -resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the -window shades to go in place of those curtain rods. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might -have been a package in which those shades came? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about -these curtain rods in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to -Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something -to do with windows in my mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever -mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November -21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that -you can remember as being in that garage. - -Mr. PAINE. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass -window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are -boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. -My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it -now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, -so it is fuzzy in my memory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the -FBI or any other authorities searched the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d? - -Mr. PAINE. I think just about 3 o'clock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances under which you first heard -of the assassination on that day? - -Mr. PAINE. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress -came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to -somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that time you had heard only that the President had -been shot, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no connection with Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the assassination at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. Went back to the lab and then---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who -was with you at the first time you heard the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you -first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near -the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, -I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of -people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, -so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it -until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was -not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School -Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank -Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next -half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that -Lee worked there, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said. - -Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't -think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision -no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping -on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the -hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I -didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact -had anything to do with the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to -hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped -the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it -unlikely on that account alone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye -witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting -the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with -deliberateness. This seemed in character. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with -compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't -see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward -his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to -his nature or his character. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination -and prior to the time that you heard Oswald---- - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say? - -Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called -her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and -listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. -That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was -mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said -almost nothing except---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was -involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being -involved? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went -home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the -Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the -theatre. But that was enough connection for me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching -discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my -action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, -therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he -would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long -surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in -any crowd of Americans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have -any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two -samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, -Tex.? - -And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping -tape with which the packages are reconstructed? - -Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is -3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, -this is 3-inch tape. - -Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I -had the impression it was a 2-inch tape. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities -inquired about this question before? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get -lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will -ask you some more questions about it. - -Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to -Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at -the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI -will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape -which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was -at your premises on November 22? - -Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is -presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly -recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it -had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you -remember? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. -The desk--I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time -the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the -garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door -leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom -drawer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any -possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he -presumably made this bag at your place? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142? - -Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of -paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364. - -Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the -garage itself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring -about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which -the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this -question? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about -that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never -been mentioned between yourself and your wife? - -Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. -I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that -morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he -did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is--we may -have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the -Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them -or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory? - -Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking -people, Ruth has mentioned the name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them? - -Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about -them? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall -what she said about them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory -in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, -subsequent to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter -Gregory's name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark. - -Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have -met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover -moved to their house later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. PAINE. I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is -possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said? - -Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I -was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch -it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring -a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce -it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I -didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers? - -Mr. PAINE. Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At -one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name -like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he -introduced me to some--let's say no; I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he -a close friend of yours? - -Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. -We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and -he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian -Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago -probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the -madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met -also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also -I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single -adult party dance of the Unitarian Church. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist? - -Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him? - -Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's -house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also -would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen? - -Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt? - -Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with -Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but -I may have shaken his hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name--I -don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten -his name at this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an -interpreter at the police station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans. - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Florence McDonald? - -Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she? - -Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal -groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or -something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I -think they were the ones who brought them into circulation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who -shares a well with him and keeps it repaired. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who does? - -Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from -Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear -stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I -haven't met him myself, I don't believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at -your office at one time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I -think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by -a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and -called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me -more than once on that subject. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order -to contact these women? - -Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, -sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was -living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time -there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out -of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about -Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to -call on her and Marina? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me -was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I -told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would -like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, -but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came? - -Mr. PAINE. She did; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it. - -Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. -Shasteen? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex. - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the -name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I -was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there -and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess -I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad -haircut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it -over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber -shops in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young -boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in -the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that -description? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I -was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin -Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that -Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party -check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, -Supermarket? - -Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on -Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, -if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile? - -Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He -couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he -knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own? - -Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What model? - -Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV? - -Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own? - -Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, -'55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was this? - -Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I -bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that? - -Mr. PAINE. '55. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that? - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? - -Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since -November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. -She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, -not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the -whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of -communication she had with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car? - -Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble -operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering -wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it -in some other way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission. - -Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or---- - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an -airplane. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch. - -Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch? - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability -to manipulate the controls? - -Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when -they learn to drive a car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina -pocket money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina? - -Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, -medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket -money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It -could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money -for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else? - -Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do -remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody -to pick him up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to -Irving is? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone -calls? - -Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you -please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him -at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any -money jingling in his pockets that I recalled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras? - -Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical -records? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were -Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to -play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian -singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor -fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or -mail at your address in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but -the Worker, what is it called now? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker. - -Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant -also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but -generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail -apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that -address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent -address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail -into a separate pile and I would pick it up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these -periodicals? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at -least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his -conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read -between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He said that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon -after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks -rolled by. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue -he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead -here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the -way he gets his communications from headquarters. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that -conversation. - -Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an -afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I -remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said -this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why? - -Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so -it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a -group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist -of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more -explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. -And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't -mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between -the lines of a newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that -he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding -any subject in the political field? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many -occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with -Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the -way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought -he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee -thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason -and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about -Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a -Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that -is the way he has to find his fellow travelers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to -convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist -group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell -or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and -thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU -meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to -indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to -meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general -remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, -what impression did he give you? - -Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist -and he would like to meet him again, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that -evening at the meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They -convene very infrequently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again? - -Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a -registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU -member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him? - -Mr. PAINE. I probably would. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU? - -Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during -the time that Marina lived at your house? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the -weekends, did he eat all of his meals there? - -Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would -sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a -position to say. I think he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in -respect to those meals? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses -of the household? - -Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I -would have been surprised had he done so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when -he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he -left? - -Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth -has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a -piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe. - -Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your -presence? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the -Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted -to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that? - -Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to -live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I -inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how -come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he -was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. -I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to -the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I -was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, -but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he -would be a happier person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too -directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it -was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was -projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as -were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that -he must feel in regard to the job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was -responsible for his not being able to obtain a job? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was -responsible for his losing a job? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised -from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and -Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was -packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, -people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he -also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money -than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. -It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to -myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must -show through to his employer. - -This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must -happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later -or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, -I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate -reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the -FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job? - -Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with -anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, -told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused -him to lose jobs? - -Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this -to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read -this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was -a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, -typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she -gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I -didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the -notorious FBI. - -Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She -hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, -which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true -and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little -bit about his--also, I think---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI? - -Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And -also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI -had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee -seemed to resent that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show -you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter -from Oswald to the Russian Embassy? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it -was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what -he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and -they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that -they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the -heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, -"Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs." - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English? - -Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, -yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter? - -Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other -magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and -I didn't really shift attention too well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards? - -Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close -attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it -must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and -she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the -furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a -Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember -what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread -the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have -read it correctly in her hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and -the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up -until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe -shortly after he returned from wherever he had been. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw -him? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one -preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think -there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday -party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not, -approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that -his birthday was October 18? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each -weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the -assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, -was it not? - -Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, -Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then? - -Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the -last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft -of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that -weekend or after that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the -house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember -when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read -the letter or not? - -Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One -would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have -looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read -the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different -point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she -showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come -to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the -Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would -have shown me the letter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of -his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not? - -Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. -And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was -reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my -magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she---- - -Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the -letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me -to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it? - -Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want -me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind -looking at it." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with -Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico? - -Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been -in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think -Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had -apparently known and deceived her in this matter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little -charm made out of Mexican peso. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until -the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used -the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these -little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out -a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she -realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about -it until afterward. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the -assassination, with your wife? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a -record of Mexican music? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her -relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of -October up to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met -Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met -them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly -to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little -fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in -discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening -at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, -and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them? - -Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he -was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was -made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said. - -But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager -to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager -that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina -thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out -of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here -if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me -as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, -so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until -she could make her own way here. - -It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for -her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was -costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina? - -Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad -with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or -I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to -stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but -would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And -she was a nice companion for Ruth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got -along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort -of thing? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that -were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain -rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when -you last saw them? - -Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then? - -Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf -above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them -down, or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at -any time? - -Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my -recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK - -The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on -March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert -E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the -President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive -Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963. - -Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in -touch with you, did he not? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive -Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and -the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, -evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of -President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result -of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine -prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some -of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some -conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time. - -Would you state your name for the record? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 -Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. -Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational -background is, Mr. Krystinik? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to -Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. -And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. -Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg -to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. -Graduated in 1950. - -I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. -Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have -to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August -of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of -1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956. - -Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated -from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell -Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just -about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you -the exact dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell -Helicopter? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on -what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that -adequate? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what -circumstances? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. -I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at -the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and -on up through now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties -Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do -remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas -when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, -and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian -lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember -his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who -had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he -defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he -came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not -capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't -accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had -taken Marina to help her for the time being. - -That was the reference made to him prior to having met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael -Paine told you about Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that -period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once -a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little -different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He -commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he -had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and -support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he -apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and -when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the -man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value. - -They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat -down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be -the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him. - -Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my -chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As -the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there -was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the -meeting said prior to the film starting. - -They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some -form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington -State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating -that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently -she had had connections during her college days but had severed -relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an -investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no -connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how -the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen -that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the -film. - -After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and -about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the -integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first -notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about -General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but -anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made -further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the -General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he -had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. -Stevenson came to Dallas? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. -I don't remember the exact date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it -struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was -anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote -that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. -He didn't say what General Walker had said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker -either by words or by his deeds? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me -prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before -that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, -and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he -thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening -to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he -was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. -He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that -General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading -a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular -violent thoughts towards General Walker? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent -until I heard on the radio he had shot the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General -Walker? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they -discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when -Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists -would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I -really don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which -Stevenson had had his difficulty? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think -just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to -Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the -General Walker group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only -remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was -the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but -anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as -General Walker? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The -group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly -whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to -you, but I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and -addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, -intelligent, or was he not that way? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement. -After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about -economics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was -the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was -saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression -on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the -conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was -directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was -irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his -attitude? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking -down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a -certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the -argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different -spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't -accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different -avenue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the -discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what -he said and what you said and what the argument was about. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the -back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not -sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure -there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee. - -Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room -together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had -told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood -that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to -offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind -of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then. - -I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we -talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I -told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he -had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he -commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that. - -I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments -were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said -that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just -what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes -a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. -I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at -least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present -time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad -to work for him for the salary I got. - -He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in -any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to -know if I thought that was fair or not? - -And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I -feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. -I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay -them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are -real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. -My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the -material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour -from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the -work, and my wage is comparable to my investment. - -He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he -commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it -is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the -worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring -to exploitation of the worker, supposedly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the -conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. -I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, -they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he -said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We -were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United -States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil -liberties. - -I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference -to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine -job, a real good job, I have forgotten. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in -reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time -he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is -doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what -he said. - -He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate -impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later -and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael -brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with -Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary -words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, -but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying -rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis -that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a -good job as far as civil rights were concerned? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. -After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an -emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him -placing emphasis on the way he said it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward -President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in -general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the -impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other -government official, during the course of his conversation with you? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine -comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying -around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It -was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that -he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the -FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the -assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was after? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you -had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any -government official or toward the government in general? Would that be -a fair statement? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time -sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down. - -Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and -we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was -before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against -all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this -impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression -beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards. - -I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers -and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able -to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this -might possibly extend to law enforcement officials. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of -authority? There was resentment of his employers? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk -about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I -talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the -only meeting you ever had with Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on -television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation -with him during that time at the ACLU meeting? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in -reference to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU -meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You -are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly -what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I -addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist -and indicated he was not a Communist? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those -theories? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you---- - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at -the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the -worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia -they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he -stated that it is worse than here. He did say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia -than it is in the United States? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. And the State exploited the worker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you any desire to return to the Soviet -Union? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to go to any other country? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. To me; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had -been active in the Fair Play for Cuba? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read -about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or -Communist group? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. His only comment was that, "I am a Marxist." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member -of any group, Marxist or Communist group? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that he -defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist, -now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red, -and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to -offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind -of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a -dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him -giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him -on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met -him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat -better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the -conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be -said, and I like to talk too. - -We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was -more of an argument. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of -your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist -or Marxist group? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I -am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific -organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific -group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of -your conversation with him? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, -the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that -occasion? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we -talked more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the -Marines? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had -been in the Marines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable -discharge from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his -impressions while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the -conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism -versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the -pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was -just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to -capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the -Soviet Union were a general remark? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of -job he had? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards, -if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic -firm or electrical industry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the -Soviet Union other than you have already told us? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we -were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And -he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The -money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any -particular sense of humor to you? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me -as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and -sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed -notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up -regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up -that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your -argument with Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what -Michael said? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went -on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no -point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind. - -He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of -person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or -make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has -sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you -have the same impression. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your -(conversation) discussion with Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him -just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I -didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have -talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there -wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar -experiences? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk -economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk -to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that -he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that -it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't -particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed -image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any -periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political -questions of the time that you discussed? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying -to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so -darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to -strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist -literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from -the news media that I heard this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael -Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the -assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was -the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child -prior to that time. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French -Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me -to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was -taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took -him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any -rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth -out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the -baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me -to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. -I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan -to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke -to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and -Marina said I am talking too Texan. - -At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful -little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she -commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can -remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there -is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have -a compliment. At least I felt complimented. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was -the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to -her in English? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to -Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking -too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment. - -At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just -a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember -exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and -I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth -entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and -totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I -talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean -I talked to her rather than with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second -child. Is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at -that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's -father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but -one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for -his future shop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior -to his buying the land. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been -invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend. - -I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy -this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, -and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew -back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at -work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting -with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his -father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an -international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who -was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and -he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine -had given in Los Angeles is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he -was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person, -and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other -people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I -remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't -remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't -remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in -my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or -other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They -were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That -doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression -I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like -that. They were just very, very different. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been -active in the affairs of the Communist Party? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he -said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was -some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic -interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does -your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his -father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does, -that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That -was Michael's comment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very -little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los -Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000, -and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he -didn't have the money. - -I had that impression because he commented that there was time for -him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the -coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was -really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was -time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't -have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000, -for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he -had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his -stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had, -if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two -places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that -he had gotten it from his father. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't -know. These are impressions that I had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the -purpose of visiting his father? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that -his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and -he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this -was the discussion prior to his leaving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell -Helicopter? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell -Helicopter business. I am aware of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on -Bell Helicopter business? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would -have told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by -my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think -that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all -honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and -if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he -shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, -because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing -on him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him -shortly after the assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with -his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he -bought this tract in Irving? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the -radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel -parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the -laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for -him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I -believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we -were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in, -they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and -switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the -Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was -shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit. - -Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, -this is official that the President of the United States has been -fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little -while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital, -and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and -both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that -they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And -finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the -President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He -had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. -And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile -tears in seriousness. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact -that the President had been fired at? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with -him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and -drink my can of Metrecal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with -Michael? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both -in the lab? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael -has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the -President had been fired at? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that -the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, -myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered -right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the -one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about -the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned -from lunch? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. -As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was -there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when -the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had -died. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the -assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a -thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any -immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a -terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first -immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have -had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that. - -And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists -would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch -people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through -that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, -and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to -the Texas School Book Depository. - -I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that -Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School -Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You -don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." -At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could -really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing -that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do -such an act. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of -Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had -learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston -near the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said -that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment -was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, -"That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" -And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have -been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one -to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between -you and Michael Paine, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the -assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of -the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job -there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time -I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had -one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right -back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works." - -And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I -just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You -don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it -wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we -heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after -that that it came through that the Oswald fellow had been captured, -had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have -forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The -stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. -He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." - -And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not -even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten. - -We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would -the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, -he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything -personal, and we discussed it. - -That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists -want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a -rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He -said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that -Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." -That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a -gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right -now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression---- - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed -to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I -remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had -any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention -Oswald's name? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had -associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in -connection with the assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it -was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing -of oppression and worry at that particular time. - -It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, -that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, -and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And -I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was -him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist -Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, -his was the name that came to my mind, possibly. - -I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me -about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I -heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his -name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they -come to mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in -connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael -Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very -shortly after the word had come through? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt -that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to -be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking -questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, -if I can answer, "I feel I should be there." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been -publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being -apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if -I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported -that--can we go back just a little bit? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Surely. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had -come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they -put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about -the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald -works. - -Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that -fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it -could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his -arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at -that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I -think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being -sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I -don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after -that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald -having been arrested in the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the -description given fitted Oswald? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we -should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at -that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it -could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald -was--works in the School Book Depository. - -They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description -and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They -commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they -arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after -Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. -I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the -FBI? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do -right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way -in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him." - -And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, -that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been -Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He -is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the -best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would -have been what he meant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael -didn't want to advise the FBI? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a -little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He -doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, -the least little bit. - -I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company -on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he -will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very -careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can. - -At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking -movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a -railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 -and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did -he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a United -States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said -he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the -future. - -It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this -date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't -know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of -it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking -pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, -and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I -got his license number of his car, also. - -The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and -Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a -public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the -public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs -said on the fence. - -If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check -and faithfully check it out. - -I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the -security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I -wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it -was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he -said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and -a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing -wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had -him arrested on the spot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI -in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude -that you explained in the situation you have just described? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A -fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, -"Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he -said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you -call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, -"No, I take a man at his word." - -He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you -have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in -his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth -civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue -him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked -out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of -his car, because he drove it that way for a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from -Washington? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give -them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about -the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. -He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details. - -At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station -in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for -himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been -checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the -Commission should know about in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination. - -In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his -apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is -on the surface. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events -leading up to the assassination? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think -if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have -avoided the President being shot. - -He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out -that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved -in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a -blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort -of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping -equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it -might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30 -inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of -approximately 27 inches. - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches -different from that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the -length of about 27 inches? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to -the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in -reference to the weapon. - -Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not -have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to -killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't -believe in violence at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, -is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to -tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at -this point? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your -time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning -to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is -important. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the -Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our -house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel -that I know Michael fairly well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any -judgment about her character? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I -have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person. - -I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would -say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know -her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well -enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with -him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't -actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with -him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to -love him as much as I love my brother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you -have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the -assassination, do you? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is -all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their -charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be -associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I -won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael -told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you -have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. -Thank you, Mr. Krystinik. - -Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the -transcript, is that so? - -Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed. - -Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none -changed. - -"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on -page 447. - -Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way. - -Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here. - -Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; -changed here. - -Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not -changed. - -Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here. - -Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; -changed here. - -Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be -"apolitical". - -Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying". - -Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as -"kidnaped"; changed here. - -Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; -changed here. - -Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was -misprinted as "huband"; changed here. - -Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not -changed. - -Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed -here. - -Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed. - -Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed -here. - -Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed. - -Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date. - -Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government." -appear to be missing from the Testimony. - -Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; -changed here. - -Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as -"Manantov"; all have been changed here. - -Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915". - -Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as -"expresed"; changed here. - -Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context. - -Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; -changed here. - -Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for -consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-". - -Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and -capitalized that way. - -Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when -he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, -but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner. - -Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text. - -Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed. - -Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed. - -Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly". - -Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you -know". - -Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available -at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote -probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in -that position. - -Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed. - -Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way. - -Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed -here. - -Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought". - -Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140". - -Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it". - -Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my". - -Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought". - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings -Vol. IX (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V9 *** - -***** This file should be named 44009.txt or 44009.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44009/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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