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diff --git a/44008.txt b/44008.txt deleted file mode 100644 index d7f7825..0000000 --- a/44008.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,45654 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. -VIII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44008] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V8 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ VIII - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume -VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. -O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle -Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were -associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn -Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, -Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and -Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while -he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick -Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George -Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis -Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., -Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis -Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service -in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who -saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. -Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. -Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became -acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in -1962. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Edward Voebel 1 - William E. Wulf 15 - Bennierita Smith 21 - Frederick S. O'Sullivan 27 - Mildred Sawyer 31 - Anne Boudreaux 35 - Viola Peterman 38 - Myrtle Evans 45 - Julian Evans 66 - Philip Eugene Vinson 75 - Hiram Conway 84 - Lillian Murret 91 - Marilyn Dorothea Murret 154 - Charles Murret 180 - John M. Murret 188 - Edward John Pic, Jr 196 - John Carro 202 - Renatus Hartogs 214 - Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel 224 - Nelson Delgado 228 - Daniel Patrick Powers 266 - John E. Donovan 289 - Allison G. Folsom, Jr 303 - George Donabedian 311 - James Anthony Botelho 315 - Donald Peter Camarata 316 - Peter Francis Connor 317 - Allen D. Graf 317 - John Rene Heindel 318 - David Christie Murray, Jr 319 - Paul Edward Murphy 319 - Henry J. Roussel, Jr 320 - Mack Osborne 321 - Richard Dennis Call 322 - Erwin Donald Lewis 323 - Martin Isaacs 324 - Pauline Virginia Bates 330 - Max E. Clark 343 - George A. Bouhe 355 - Anna N. Meller 379 - Elena A. Hall 391 - John Raymond Hall 406 - Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) 415 - Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin 425 - Igor Vladimir Voshinin 448 - - - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - - Page - Bates Exhibit No. 1 340 - Carro Exhibit No. 1 213 - Donabedian Exhibit No. 1 312 - Folsom Exhibit No. 1 304 - Hartogs Exhibit No. 1 220 - Isaacs Exhibit No.: - 1 328 - 2 328 - 3 328 - Siegel Exhibit No.: - 1 227 - 2 228 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL - -The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old -Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., -by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being -duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Edward Voebel? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is your place of business? - -Mr. VOEBEL. At the same place. - -Mr. JENNER. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's here in New Orleans? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your -mother and father, are you not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Mother, uncle, and grandmother. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your business? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Quality Florist Co. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age, Mr. Voebel? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I am 23. - -Mr. JENNER. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of -the Warren Commission, did you not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate -Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to -investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is -that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. -Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is -that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take -testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as -this one. You received that also? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you gather from those documents that the -Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and -circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the -late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of -the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking -depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey -Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of -their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of -the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some -contact with him; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a few questions about that. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey -Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that -came about. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about -1954 or 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole -story? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would -like to have a little background in the record before we go into that. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, -because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing -who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this -fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and -tried to patch him up a bit. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you -remember? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances of that, please. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee -had a fight with a couple of boys. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names? - -Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike. - -Mr. JENNER. John and Mike? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They were classmates? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as -Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a -grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight -with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I -think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the -street in the direction naturally in which I was going. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and -people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, -and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run -them off of one block, they would go on to the next. - -Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so. - -Mr. JENNER. How about size? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than -Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you -not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. -The fight traveled my route home. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the -street? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the -little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was -two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch -to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer. - -Mr. JENNER. The little boy? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that -happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for -some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against -one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that -this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that -this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his -lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the -boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit -him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody -off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that -time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth -bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think -I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day -or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, -and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple -of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I -didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick. - -Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous -football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him -really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, -and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help -him. - -Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the -post on him. - -Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. -That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on -Lee at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble -he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think -this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, -so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this -happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they -were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him -up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, -began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I -would say. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he -was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was -cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point -on, would you say? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and -share interests, and what were his interests? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never -even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown--I told -the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but -actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I -did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and -sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. -Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to -come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you accept his invitation? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's when we played darts. - -Mr. JENNER. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. On Exchange Alley. - -Mr. JENNER. Exchange Alley? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you find him adept in playing pool? - -Mr. VOEBEL. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the -fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating -him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that -good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I -don't think he was a great pool player. - -Mr. JENNER. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to -the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he liked it. - -Mr. JENNER. He liked to play pool? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he seemed to like it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a -picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the -paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a -lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met -her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had -a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, -maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind -as I recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you smoke? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee smoke? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you drink? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't, really. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you drink occasionally? - -Mr. VOEBEL. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a -drinker. - -Mr. JENNER. How about Lee, was he a drinker? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen -or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot -of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for -drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I -think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind. - -There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and -that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, -which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so -he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the -others. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what -you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time -you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. -That's my problem. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a -man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 -or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you -were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. -People change, of course. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. -I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee -Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, -but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school -together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think -in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had -the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that -I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would -have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the -Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't -know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost -contact with Lee years ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, -that was my impression of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you -say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at -Beauregard School while you were attending there? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be -troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at -that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a -fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to -fight at that school. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of -characters that were going to that school at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that -in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or -inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just -the opposite of that; isn't that true? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight -a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but -if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he -ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going -to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I -might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, -now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if -you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of -his way to avoid it. - -Mr. JENNER. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't -want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was -a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to -speak? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a coeducational school? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. High school or junior high? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a -grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when -it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. -As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, -but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very -often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang -wars and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. You still live close to the school? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near -there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, -pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long -time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it -was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics -people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there -for about a year, and then he disappeared. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go to Warren Easton? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I went to Fortier. - -Mr. JENNER. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High -School to then enroll in Warren Easton? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's normally right. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the regular progression? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him -after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during -that summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, -or what? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. Let's see--no; I think we were in the -same grade, I think we were. - -Mr. JENNER. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I went to Fortier. - -Mr. JENNER. Any reason? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system. - -Mr. JENNER. That's why you went over there? - -Mr. VOEBEL. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a service man? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what branch? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Army. - -Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we -had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and -stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember -participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't -remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym -periods were different. - -I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so -there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a -lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't think Lee did? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule -accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone -comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or -clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just -like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody -new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the -community before they accepted him. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that -compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when -you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, -you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody. - -Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh, -maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue, -I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time -a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face -something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he -joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was -the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and -adolescent things. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force, -whatever it was; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; he met it head on. - -Mr. JENNER. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid -it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I -think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They -thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used -to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always -be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they -would hang around in bunches. - -In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school -where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked, -so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and -finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after -school, almost the same way this happened to Lee. - -Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of -people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk -myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was -inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't -fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over -to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using -all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle -ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just -had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't attack you any more? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was -normal, having in mind the problems he was facing? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, except that he didn't make friends. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; he was not inclined to make friends. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't know why he was so disinclined? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. -It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. -He was just living in his own world, let's say. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did have some measure of common interest that you -told me about? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you -have in mind? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns. - -Mr. JENNER. And these were regular weapons, not toys? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a -collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few -foreign military weapons. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that World War I? - -Mr. VOEBEL. World War II. - -Mr. JENNER. Your uncle? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, my uncle. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is -that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around -the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and -I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old, -you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt -about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same -reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like -anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always -liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often -thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had -this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones -they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any -weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he -wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting -them or anything. - -I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and -cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to -want something just to have it, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You couldn't interest him in that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music, -and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things, -and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't -seem to run that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he interested in music? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; he wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I never had seen him drive at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the subject with him? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or -couldn't drive an automobile? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was -interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went -fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They -were no bigger than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Almost minnows? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right, and I think he liked to fish. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about fishing? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed -fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although -I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went -fishing that day. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Financial circumstances? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his -finances. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Poor. - -Mr. JENNER. Poor? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That made no difference to you? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter -whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are -very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. -It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't -fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some -class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an -interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less -common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested -in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like -that, because I don't have the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you married? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you get out of the service? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Two years ago. I just served 6 months. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a sort of special program? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army -Terminal and also take in the World's Fair? - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say -you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the -apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot -pool? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or -three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late -in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a -couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at -all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons -and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them -out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever own a weapon? - -Mr. VOEBEL. A real one? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something -there that you want to tell me about? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45. - -Mr. JENNER. A plastic model? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now -about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed -with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about -stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother -me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and -everything that he needed for a burglary, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, we were over at Easton. - -Mr. JENNER. Easton High School? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were -putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high -school. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that right at the time you were graduating from -Beauregard? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from -Beauregard; right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard -altogether? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Or was that at Easton? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for -about a year? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been -over there, but I don't remember that at all. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go on with your story. - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we -were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the -plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed -a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his -plan was to steal it. - -Mr. JENNER. It wasn't one of these collector's items? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell -you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was -just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an -automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention -to it. - -Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the pistol in the window? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following -week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and -a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to -how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean in the Rampart Street store? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this -plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the -glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he -was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told -me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the -window and everything, and I didn't know what to tell him, so he said, -"Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind -it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we -walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the -window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was. - -He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him. -I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice -this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar -alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk -him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think -that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that -tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed -me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the -inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try -it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he -finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal -Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window, -such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway, -he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was -the end of that. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, it was just a real cheap one. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a plate glass window, though, you say? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass -window with a glass cutter? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the -cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really -wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was -really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got -in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it -seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point -where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through -with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look -back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if -he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you -know, but I am just speculating on that, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean the politics in the pure sense. - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to -be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things -about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back -when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney. - -Mr. JENNER. You and he never discussed anything like that, then? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at -that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like -political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot -of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even -know that. I know we never discussed anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the -service, I believe; is that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have -two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing. - -Mr. JENNER. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or -playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were -they? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No, I never saw them. I never met them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee -and his mother? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you -usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my -opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as -Lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and I think -she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like -Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time. - -I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was -something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her -children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I -guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to -him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about -anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean, -did he cut her off short in any way? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at -that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other -kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are -normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to -a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his -mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you -know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a -mamma's boy. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; never. He was no mamma's boy. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often -indulgent toward him? - -Mr. VOEBEL. In one way; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In which way was that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she -would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even -if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course, -if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for -him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything -like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe -he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but -that's just the way he was. - -Mr. JENNER. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as -to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his -father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal -in life. What was his attitude about that, if any? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his -father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his -father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's -unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt -bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked -about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard -together. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever come over to your house? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for -sure, but I don't think he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you active in sports? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Just in intramurals. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he play any intramurals? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so -I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think -everybody had to play some intramural sports. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling -that there were things that should have been accorded him by way -of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been -deprived because his father had predeceased him? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Did he have a feeling of that at that time? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOEBEL. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those -thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than -it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly -good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. We would play darts and -play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you -that impression? - -Mr. VOEBEL. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I -am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination -occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we -were in Beauregard together. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the -impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as -compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this -man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy. - -Mr. VOEBEL. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I -think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course, -at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind -trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out -looking for something like that unless you have a reason. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that -Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you -not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around -and associating with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you put any credence in that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one -that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one -to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be -reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal -things that kids read. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you a voracious reader in those days? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the -time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great -reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I -guess you would say. - -Mr. JENNER. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me, -even music when I first started with it. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you still interested in music? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I still play music. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with -Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity -of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand -then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to -mix with people; that's all. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that -has remained in your mind all these years? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted -to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you -see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that -maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. -Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't -tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I -knew how he didn't like to mix with people. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this -horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of -Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and -behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since -his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; -is that right? - -Mr. JENNER. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, -and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of -a gang at school, or anything like that? - -Mr. VOEBEL. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were going to Beauregard? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look -for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few -friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that -seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more -or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to. - -Mr. JENNER. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his -studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that -right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he was just an average student. - -Mr. JENNER. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do -you know? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his -attendance was pretty good. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was not much on the Marines. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with -Lee? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about his brothers? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but -there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his -brothers--I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I -have no impression of that whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received -his just dues in the world up to that point? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't -really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression. -That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this. - -Mr. JENNER. But did you have such an impression at that time? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I -said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing -because you have a previous impression; isn't that true? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression -at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I -think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter -toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my -opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were -going to Beauregard, to the same school. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your -opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, -and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that statement? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later. - -Mr. JENNER. And you don't think you had those impressions then? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that embitterment directed toward? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority. - -Mr. JENNER. You noticed that at that time, did you? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do, -or made to do something. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think they have two. - -Mr. JENNER. Two? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there two here at that time? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking -about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he -attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently -bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember, -in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again. - -Mr. JENNER. He just attended two meetings of the CAP? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Two or three meetings, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's all he attended? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when -Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that -I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but -he might have been. That isn't too clear to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join -the unit? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to -be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it -was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he -was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't -attend any more meetings. - -Mr. JENNER. You thought that was strange? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my -opinion now, I guess--not then, but I think now maybe he liked the -uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those -classes that we had. - -Mr. JENNER. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that -Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just -didn't show up any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require -some study? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of -his earlier life? - -Mr. VOEBEL. His "history"? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; his background--anything about his family before he -ever met you? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but -he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or -anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here -from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I -don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he -wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at -that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all -this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things -like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and -things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to -anyone in your presence, that you recall? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, -just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he -did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would -impress me so that I would remember it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a -week, or how often? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have -actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe -attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a -sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the -whole thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those -classes? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the -weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but -maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this CAP unit coeducational? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, -isn't that right? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out -there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it. - -Mr. JENNER. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these -classes? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They -might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest -me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they interest Lee? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't -show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind? - -Mr. VOEBEL. None whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in -that respect? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't -pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it? - -Mr. VOEBEL. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. -I think that was probably it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that you can think of from your -acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you -could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what -I have asked you? - -Mr. VOEBEL. No; I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of -reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege -and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on -to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be -transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know -when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in -that regard? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told -you what I know about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You prefer to waive that then? - -Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF - -The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized -to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week---- - -Mr. WULF. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Advising you that I would be in touch with you---- - -Mr. WULF. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I -understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive -order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well -as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony. - -Mr. WULF. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did receive the letter, et cetera? - -Mr. WULF. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge -that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New -Orleans during the period 1954-55. Before we get into the details of -that, however, would you state your full name for the record. - -Mr. WULF. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. WULF. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf? - -Mr. WULF. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed? - -Mr. WULF. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New -Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are you majoring in? - -Mr. WULF. History. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been attending LSU? - -Mr. WULF. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You obtained your primary education and secondary -education here in New Orleans? - -Mr. WULF. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you obtain that education, what schools? - -Mr. WULF. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh -grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De -La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu -High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then from there you went to LSU? - -Mr. WULF. LSU, right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military -service? - -Mr. WULF. No. I am exempted at this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has received information to the effect -that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy -Association---- - -Mr. WULF. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct? - -Mr. WULF. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or -what was it at that time? - -Mr. WULF. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school -students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in -astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the group still active? - -Mr. WULF. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls -of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact -that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in -college. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans -Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were -contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WULF. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed -this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at -this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is Palmer McBride? - -Mr. WULF. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted -me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was--I had -originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and -all, probably it was September or August in 1955. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you? - -Mr. WULF. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had -talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they -were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe -he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group -and I told him--he asked me could he come over to the house one time, -and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed -between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow that called you and then came over to your -house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct? - -Mr. WULF. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to -associate Oswald with this particular person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This association was made by you at some time subsequent -to the assassination. Is that correct? - -Mr. WULF. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night -following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call -from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been -employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental -Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald---- - -Mr. WULF. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New -Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture, -and then I subsequently found out--I confirmed it when I asked the FBI -agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and -he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same -person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee -Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you -saw in the paper? - -Mr. WULF. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then as a result of that association, you asked the -FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's? - -Mr. WULF. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the -association, other than--I must stipulate at this time that when I had -met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would -like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI -interviewed you? - -Mr. WULF. I have no idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not contact the FBI? - -Mr. WULF. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it -was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos -on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as -everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not -think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even -surprised that I got your letter from the Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way -as to how they had been led to you? - -Mr. WULF. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that -knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride, -so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the -subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they -got this particular knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you -remember? - -Mr. WULF. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records -from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954--that is a rough -date--probably towards the end, probably--let's see--I am trying to -associate it with the Astronomy Club dates--towards the end of the -school year 1954-55, so that would probably be in--oh, March and April, -around that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1955? - -Mr. WULF. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I -could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to -join the Astronomy Association---- - -Mr. WULF. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride -and become a friend of his after that? - -Mr. WULF. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact -with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the -city I still see him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental -Laboratory? Is that right? - -Mr. WULF. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I -don't know the exact title of his position. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald? - -Mr. WULF. Only at the time that--two occasions or possibly three--I -think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of -Oswald's beliefs, and I told--McBride had always told me that he -wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket -engineering and rocketry--like we all were nuts on rocketry at the -time--and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with -him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want -to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a -security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that -correct? - -Mr. WULF. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What led you to make that statement to McBride? - -Mr. WULF. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting -with Oswald when we got into a discussion--I being a history major -and always been interested in history, some way or another we got -around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was -reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding -the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in -communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et -cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for -a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a -little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that -would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after -this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back -and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard -what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, -boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put -him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with -Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and -boisterous? - -Mr. WULF. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous -person? - -Mr. WULF. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over -communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue -with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right -before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to -Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous -boy and very determined in his way about communism. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or -strongheaded about other things? - -Mr. WULF. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought -he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in -other words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then there never was any question of physical---- - -Mr. WULF. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Contact over this thing? - -Mr. WULF. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a strongly presented argument? - -Mr. WULF. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started -hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through -Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him -violently, and he asked him to leave the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your father a native of Germany? - -Mr. WULF. Hamburg. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he had been involved in some political activities -with or opposed to the Communists? - -Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany -following the war, 1919-20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic -Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and -he just--well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't -like Communists. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything about the details of your first -meeting with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. WULF. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that -he asked--we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the -conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck -me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the -time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered -in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we -were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data -we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be -hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him -from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of -the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3 -o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was at a meeting of the association? - -Mr. WULF. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house. -It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something -like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and -just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is -somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at -that time? - -Mr. WULF. Not at that time; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you remember anything else about the second -meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us? - -Mr. WULF. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed -communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made -Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that -way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little -about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and I -can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist, -he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist -Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to -find a Communist organization? - -Mr. WULF. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name -Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking -for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he -couldn't---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Couldn't find one? - -Mr. WULF. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as -this with McBride? - -Mr. WULF. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride -and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when -we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent -leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop -associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except -for, you know, working hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed -communism with him? - -Mr. WULF. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were -on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social -association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys -struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had -quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and -I think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they -were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and -McBride? Is that correct? - -Mr. WULF. On this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for -one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that -they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were -that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride--he -wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more -money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and -not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride -associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after -this second visit that--we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald -specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable -on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy -Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite -conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I -was quite conscious of security matters and all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest -in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations? - -Mr. WULF. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was -strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any -belief in communism. - -Mr. LIEBELER. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two -pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and -453-B." - -Mr. WULF. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in -those pictures? - -Mr. WULF. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo -453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on -"Pizzo 453-A." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You recognize that as Oswald? - -Mr. WULF. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I -subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can -associate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these -pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of---- - -Mr. WULF. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints--I can tell by the grain--and -they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are -the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what -you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do -not associate the other man marked---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your -observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having -seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper? - -Mr. WULF. No; I base that picture on--when I first saw those films -originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling -that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it -was many years ago, it was--oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was -younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but -he seems to me to be the same person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the -logical steps that---- - -Mr. WULF. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that logical association is the association that we -have already described throughout this record? - -Mr. WULF. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New -Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know -for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that -year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his -mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him. -McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had -asked him about it because of his attitudes and such. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his -mother? - -Mr. WULF. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like -this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is -hearsay, of course, through McBride--that his mother didn't associate -with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as -such. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in -1955-56? - -Mr. WULF. Right, 1955. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the -assassination? - -Mr. WULF. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once, -and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram -requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no -answer, and we were wondering where he is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If -you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like -to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would -appreciate it if you would add it. - -Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. The only thing I can--I don't know how -many people have told you of this period of his life--I amplify that -at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently -for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young -at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for -communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing -that did hit me, he seemed--I told this to McBride at the time--he -seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I -don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may -have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to -associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and -at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, -and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to -become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time, -and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to -Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the -time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to -thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent -that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much. - -Mr. WULF. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH - -The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized -to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the -authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I -would be in touch with you concerning your testimony. - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the -Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred, -as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission -concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. -Rankin's letter and those documents? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to -the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged -assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at -some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into -the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name -for the record, if you will. - -Mrs. SMITH. Bennierita Smith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are married? Is that correct? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your name before you were married? - -Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio. My maiden name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. SMITH. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born? - -Mrs. SMITH. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us your educational background, -please. - -Mrs. SMITH. Starting from kindergarten? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue -in Lakeview. Then I went--it was either the third or fourth grade I -transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview -School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and -that is all the schooling I have had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate? - -Mrs. SMITH. 1958. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you attended -Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended -Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and -well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always -getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well -outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in -fights? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what you know about that? - -Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was -this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight -with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit -Lee, and his tooth came through his lip. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip? - -Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that -boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so -well? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel? - -Mrs. SMITH. That is him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l? - -Mrs. SMITH. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of -patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he -didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the -only one I remember. And they had this little boy--I think it was Bobby -Newman--he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much -about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was? - -Mrs. SMITH. Bobby Newman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bobby Newman? - -Mrs. SMITH. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to -me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far -as--I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with -other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or -less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung -around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Mr. Voebel? - -Mrs. SMITH. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I -knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well, -I knew his sisters. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Voebel's sister? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris--and they call -the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one -you described in which Oswald had his lip cut? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and -knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight -or that the other guy started the fight? - -Mrs. SMITH. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I -know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the -fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school -but he didn't go there, you know, he just---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same -age as the rest of the students? - -Mrs. SMITH. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to -Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, -and I am almost sure he was older than her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which -Oswald was involved? - -Mrs. SMITH. That is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the television program that was played over -WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to -my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he -called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I -thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been -such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they -were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he -wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't -anything I knew about him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter? - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them. -And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and -pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my -girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school -with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so -happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I -told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in the television program? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; the three of us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three of you would be yourself--and what were the names -of the other two girls? - -Mrs. SMITH. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of -yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right? - -Mrs. SMITH. Larry and Bob? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. SMITH. No; Larry--I met Larry--gee, I don't even remember--I -guess maybe at a school dance or something--and I went out with him, -and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to -see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get -some--well, more or less a story together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the other boy? - -Mrs. SMITH. Bob Jones? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, he broadcasts the news. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He works for the television station? - -Mrs. SMITH. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we -just answered him, but I didn't know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You -mentioned this fight to him? - -Mrs. SMITH. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we -knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as--like we -would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in -class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he lived? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details -about Lee Oswald than you did? - -Mrs. SMITH. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, -that he always wore these sweater vests--they are more or less in style -now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school--it was just -like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe -he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl -friend told him about that, and--I am trying to remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was -that something that one of your girl friends remembered? - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him -dressing that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this -first? - -Mrs. SMITH. I think it was Peggy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Peggy? - -Mrs. SMITH. Peggy Zimmerman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else that the three of you were able -to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by -the television people or after that? - -Mrs. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was -this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald -being involved in? - -Mrs. SMITH. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was -in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that? - -Mrs. SMITH. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother -who told her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the -time he went to Beauregard? - -Mrs. SMITH. Not that I know of, not in school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any -close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the -possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right? - -Mrs. SMITH. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a -sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed? - -Mrs. SMITH. He wore levis, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that different from what the other students wore? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants -or khakis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of -the way he dressed or the way he---- - -Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed -around by the other boys for any reason? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about -Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is -there, or---- - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall -in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just -show his back and--but there isn't anything other than that fight. I -think that is what made me remember him the most. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar -or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way -in which he walked? - -Mrs. SMITH. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they -just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight -with them or---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody? - -Mrs. SMITH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know how this fight---- - -Mrs. SMITH. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I -say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see, -they were fighting, but I really---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this? - -Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't seen him--gee, I guess since I graduated -from Beauregard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located? - -Mrs. SMITH. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near -the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street -from St. Anthony's Church. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it -out farther? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; well, it is further down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now? - -Mrs. SMITH. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal -Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here -[indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Quite a way from here? - -Mrs. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride -practically to the end of the line. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you got to Beauregard? - -Mrs. SMITH. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end -of the streetcar line. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be several miles from here, would it not? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I guess--let's see--it must be about the 4000 or -6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the 6000 block? - -Mrs. SMITH. I think so. I am not sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is Beauregard we are talking about? - -Mrs. SMITH. Beauregard; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me the area the people that went to -Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area -surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans, -or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school? - -Mrs. SMITH. Each high school has its own district, so that the people -that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly, -you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school -board. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district -was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955? - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has it changed much since then? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or -middle-class neighborhood? - -Mrs. SMITH. Middle-class neighborhood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the -time that he went to Beauregard, do you? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record a minute. - -(Discussion off the record) - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior -High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a -particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than -Beauregard? - -Mrs. SMITH. That draws from a district too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that district included the district encompassed by -Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; and also, well, around Easton. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard -Junior High School District, does it not? - -Mrs. SMITH. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically -went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but -it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened, -it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Lee Oswald attended Warren Easton High -School? - -Mrs. SMITH. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't, -but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking -outside of school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But nothing else? - -Mrs. SMITH. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton -other than that, I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that -stands out in your mind? - -Mrs. SMITH. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton? -Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating -from Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it was right after we had started at Warren Easton. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself did graduate from Warren Easton, did you not? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is -that right? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of -time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; just--I may have just seen him once or twice at the -beginning of the school year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the -same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social -background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School? - -Mrs. SMITH. I think so, but there were a few kids--well, boys--that -were---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say? - -Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There were people from a different class or different -group of society? - -Mrs. SMITH. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I -don't know how true it is, but that is what they say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or -heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you? - -Mrs. SMITH. No; I never have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I -haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would -set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we -haven't covered? - -Mrs. SMITH. There isn't anything else I can think of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to -thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that -you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very -much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN - -The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7-8, 1964, -at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that -I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, -and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and -the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules -of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of -witnesses. Did you receive the letter? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were -they not? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things the Commission is interested in is -the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the -extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in -evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was -alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge -that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the -record. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as -I understand. Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police -Department? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Six years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how old are you now? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Twenty-six. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a -junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; Beauregard Junior High. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Beauregard Junior High? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. On Canal Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard -Junior High School? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to Beauregard? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. One year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And where did you go prior to that time? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. St. Dominic's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. St. Dominic's? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Elementary school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In Lakeview in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Beauregard, where did you go? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans also? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend college at any place? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a -police department scholarship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald -when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him, -what contacts you had with him, just the whole story. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while -I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet -members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at -the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was -Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel--I am not sure how that name is -spelled--and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was -I noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was a marching team? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself -always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, -that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders -back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really -fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could--well, he even -gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he -ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the -three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out -there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at -school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the -airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or -two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then -joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a -closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to -the squadron he had joined. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At Moisant Field? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. At Moisant Airport. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald--I didn't know this until I -read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short -time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived -either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New -Orleans? Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from -French Street around 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the -time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his -friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of -our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, -but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of -the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of--I was an -athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a -thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What particular sport were you involved in? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do -with sports activities? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close -acquaintances at that time, or do you know? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and -went out to Moisant and evidently--or I believe he talked Oswald into -coming out there with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not -Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had -uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport -and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot -of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether -they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more -cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can -check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to -Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol -program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the -NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to -summer camp we would fire on the range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer -camp? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National -Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of -any kind in connection with CAP activities? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any -rifle practice in connection with the CAP? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David -Ferrie? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans -Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that -correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there -was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am -not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He -could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when -he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with -the Moisant squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when -Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when -he went to Moisant Airport. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated -with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I am not sure of any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no -direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would lead you to -believe that there was a relationship between these two men? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went -through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get -some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me -up at home, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were these files located? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. These files are in the possession of one Robert -Boylston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all -were, at New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did the records come to be in his possession? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently -dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just -turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old -records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course, -I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and -what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much. -Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything in these files that related to -Ferrie or Oswald? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing -in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all -that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the -Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and -we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in -a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron -in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald. -I don't know if he was involved, he could have been. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you found nothing in the files? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Nothing concrete. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald -and Ferrie? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that there has been -publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible -relationship between Oswald and Ferrie? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am -sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this -Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I -don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under -investigation of whatever it was, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you go ahead. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans -Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New -Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to -check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been -flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald -to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we -found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had -flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to -see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, -and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an -airplane. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice -activities here in New Orleans? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the -whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, -homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we -handle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection -with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct? - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We -have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now see if you can recall or think back to your -experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you -can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want -to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and -his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this -ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this -correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would -like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else. -I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if -I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure, -but there is nothing else I can think of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if -there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of -the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation. - -Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER - -The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to -take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that -we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony. - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the -Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just -referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the -taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct? - -Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr. -Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my -place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up -the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going -through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or -some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, -after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little -curious and looked, and I found that there was one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days' -notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3 -days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you -are here, I assume you will want to go ahead. - -Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid -there is very little I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but -one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much -background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the -hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in -fact he did assassinate the President. - -Mrs. SAWYER. I see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the -time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place -where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, -more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I -felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going -to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so, -whenever we wanted to, we could stay there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place -where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street, -and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you -remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage -there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some -little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an -engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in -and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have -someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, -way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was -quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around, -and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back -and forth ever since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without -looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My -husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3 -years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is -kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it -was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son, -were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and -they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and -I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all -about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI -sometime back in November? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and -that is when I realized that they were the same people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent -during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my -mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my -husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was -out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway -or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. -About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is -about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say -"little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely -remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly -hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once -in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I -was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and -he seemed quite polite. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a -little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as -I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he -actually is or was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange -Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called -Exchange Alley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was -working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been -trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I -believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember -which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was -buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she -might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in. -In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her -for anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs. -Oswald and this boy? Is that right? - -Mrs. SAWYER. That is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or -same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, -combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a -small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and -I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building -going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close -to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that -lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home -before his mother and he was very quiet. - -Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home -before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I -say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the -door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and -undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had -been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very -low voiced and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any -scolding? - -Mrs. SAWYER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the -things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, -especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very -much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out -at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something -like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any -conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my -own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with -other people, and I think neighbors especially. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or -anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come -and go? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock -in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes -I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock -or so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that -that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds -left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were -going or anything? - -Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about -where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me -that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and -shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I -came back, well, they were gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or -particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him -to distinguish him from other boys his age? - -Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of, -and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke -to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very -average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked -and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. -About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was -rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during -that time? - -Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that -she probably had friends at the stores where she worked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them? - -Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If -you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that -you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you -can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered---- - -Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that -apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved -into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it -was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have -been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee -to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first -contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly? - -Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, -but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well -spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything -like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this -little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I -did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that -came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice -would be involved in anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever -hear him talking about politics to anybody? - -Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than -just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or -something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him -at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14 -years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would -have been quite---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious? - -Mrs. SAWYER. True. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think -of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming -over. - -Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself -personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the -cooperation that you have given us. - -Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is -so vague and such a little bit. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX - -The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first -being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband's name is Edward? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general -counsel of the Commission, did you not? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution -137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the -assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I have the letter with me. - -Mr. JENNER. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the -United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its -powers and duties? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take -testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as -this one? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I therefore take it you understand from -those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed -to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of -November 1963? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of -the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see -if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in -its investigation. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact -with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, -information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the -Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because -these are always a little inconvenient, of course. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline -Street, is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Since 1932--no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15, -1942. - -Mr. JENNER. 1942, rather than 1932? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I am. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born here and reared here? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I was born in Louisiana, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. My husband too. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have a family? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I do. - -Mr. JENNER. How many children? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I have five children. - -Mr. JENNER. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11. - -Mr. JENNER. Two 16's? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you -know? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, Marguerite Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with her? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that -house? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a double house. - -Mr. JENNER. A double house? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that up and down, or side by side? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Two sides. - -Mr. JENNER. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Who occupies the other house? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. On the other side? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a Mr. Russo. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Russo? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I -moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. When you moved in? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; they were there already. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought -about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some -experiences with Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see -me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roach? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did she live? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their -babysitter. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; for the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she live in that neighborhood? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street. - -Mr. JENNER. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block -from the Port of Embarkation. - -Mr. JENNER. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. She actually moved into the home? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and -I moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. Shortly before that? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was -through her that I knew the house was going to be empty. - -Mr. JENNER. Through Mrs. Roach? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had been acquainted with her for some time? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Roach? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little -bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June -or the latter part of May 1942. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with -respect to Lee's conduct? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Who, Mrs. Roach? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was -babysitting? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you -know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was -bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee then would have been about 2-1/2 years old, is that -right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A little more than that? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that -conversation with you. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She -said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the -chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a -gun or not, or what a gun was, would he? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy -gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time -with him. - -Mr. JENNER. She thought he exhibited fits of temper? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's -what she said. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the other two boys. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the -other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had -other boys. - -Mr. JENNER. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the -Secret Service? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; he came out three times to see me. - -Mr. JENNER. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in -the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors -sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever -moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too -quickly, I mean. - -Mr. JENNER. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was -her reputation for truth and veracity, for example? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to -me, I mean, the neighbors. - -Mr. JENNER. You never heard anything bad about her? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother -to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I -have never heard anything spoken about her. - -Mr. JENNER. When her son Lee was 2-1/2 years old, was she working at -that time? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I think she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that why she had to have a babysitter. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the -lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--Mrs. Roach. She's -deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there -when I moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012 -Bartholomew? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I -live. - -Mr. JENNER. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4 -blocks? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010 -Bartholomew? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she -left there. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. The one where I was living? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. They were rented, but now I own my home. - -Mr. JENNER. But they were being rented at that time? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The former landlady, is she alive? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; she's not. - -Mrs. JENNER. She's dead? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she's dead. - -Mr. JENNER. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard -of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me--until he -got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I -didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had--I -don't know if it's important or not---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. -We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts -and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs. -Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and -then they never came back for the money, I don't think. - -Mr. JENNER. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised -all my children with it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that right? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend -to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't -concerning them at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court -reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your -deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as -to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you -wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to -waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter -will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to -Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this -investigation. - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the -truth, and that's all I can do. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity -of reading and signing the deposition? - -Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here -voluntarily and giving us your statement. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN - -The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after -first being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; that's Milfred. - -Mr. JENNER. Milfred? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name. - -Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Viola. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that V-i-o-l-a? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that -correct? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The general counsel of the Warren Commission? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't -there? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing -the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the -assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the -Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and -fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules -and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and -have testimony before the Commission; is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that -the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts -and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, -in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are -deposing various people around the country whose lives came into -contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or -possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you -have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. -Peterman? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I can only tell you what I know. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are -you a native of this part of the country? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; New Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born here? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was your husband likewise born here? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is his business or occupation? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the -building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year. - -Mr. JENNER. He retired last year? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; since March last year. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite -Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 -Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years -ago that they lived there. - -Mr. JENNER. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see--I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 -years ago that I moved there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she already living there when you moved there? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have -been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the -houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, -because she was in there first. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these relatively new houses? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; they were old places. - -Mr. JENNER. They had been lived in before? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that -across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side -of the street? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Right next door. There were three single homes on two -lots, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Three single-family dwellings on two lots? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; on two city lots. - -Mr. JENNER. Are they identical houses? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed -theirs up different, you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe those houses for me. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. What do you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and -so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and -how large. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just -straight houses. - -Mr. JENNER. Four rooms and a bath? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what construction; wood? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Wood; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I had four children. - -Mr. JENNER. What were their ages around that time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. When she moved there and we moved there; right around -that time, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; -my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8. - -Mr. JENNER. Your eldest child was a boy or girl? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. A girl. - -Mr. JENNER. And her present name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that--Herrmann? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n. - -Mr. JENNER. What's her first name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Marian is her first name. - -Mr. JENNER. Does she still live in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, she lives down in Chalmette. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that near here? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a city? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. What, Chalmette? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St. -Bernard. - -Mr. JENNER. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She's now what; 45? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she -will be 46. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she living at home at that time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a boy or girl? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Boy. - -Mr. JENNER. His name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does he live now? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court. - -Mr. JENNER. St. Claude Court? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Myra; another girl. - -Mr. JENNER. Myra? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Myra is now married; is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What's her married name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Davis. - -Mr. JENNER. What's the name of her husband? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Eddie. - -Mr. JENNER. Edward? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he work here? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at Public Service. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do they live? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. They live on Cedar Avenue--713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie. - -Mr. JENNER. Metairie? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that part of New Orleans? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New -Orleans. It runs into it, I mean. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; and then your youngest? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Let me explain about her. - -Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's -child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both -died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Her name was--when she was single, Welbrock, but she -married, and now it's Kushler. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the -time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at that time, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her first name? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Cecelia. - -Mr. JENNER. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And they reside where? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly. - -Mr. JENNER. Rabbit Street in Gentilly? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a part of New Orleans? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it's the part out by the lake. - -Mr. JENNER. Which lake? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Lake Pontchartrain. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's -34 right now. - -Mr. JENNER. He's 34 now? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Myra will be how old? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. She made 32 in February. - -Mr. JENNER. And Cecelia? - -Mr. PETERMAN. She will be 30 this month--I mean, in May--May 15. - -Mr. JENNER. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending -elementary school, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they all attend the same school? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. They went to Washington, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Washington Elementary School? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is that? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. St. Claude and Alvar. - -Mr. JENNER. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary -school and high school at that time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Who is that? - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from -high school? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to -high school 3 weeks or thereabouts. - -Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately -when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to -herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years, -maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. -I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones -herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about -all. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did become acquainted with her? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes; I would say that. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had three children? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because -she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that -herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was -dead, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, P-I-C-K. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boy was---- - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Robert. - -Mr. JENNER. And the third? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was the third one? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about -within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra -and Cecelia; is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age. - -Mr. JENNER. Around Cecelia's age? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she -moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard -to recall all of that, to be exact. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all right. We want you to just give us the -information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that -time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I -really don't know to be exact on that. - -Mr. JENNER. And John? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going -to school. - -Mr. JENNER. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is -that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that -would be Robert? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington -Elementary at that time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I -am not positive. - -Mr. JENNER. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there, -Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved -before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3 -years. - -Mr. JENNER. About 2 years maybe? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know. - -Mr. JENNER. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the -time? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, she was. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard that as strange, did you? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much -with the neighbors. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that -Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced -her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was -dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she -moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead, -living, or what. She never mentioned him. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you say you moved into that house? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. In 1941. - -Mr. JENNER. You moved there in 1941? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that -time, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how she supported herself? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold -her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I -don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then -later she opened a little dry goods store. - -Mr. JENNER. A dry goods store? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I won't say a dry goods store--more like a grocery -store, I guess you would say--just a small place there in the front -room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. In her front room. - -Mr. JENNER. The front room of her house? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it was a little grocery store. - -Mr. JENNER. Would the local city ordinances permit that? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a -short time--not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I -know that was the only money she had coming in at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please; -what kind of person she was. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, like I said--I don't know how to explain it, but -she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob -either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a -person that--I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with -her, and she was a good mother to her children. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to -herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether -she did to the other neighbors, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard her conduct as strange? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of -person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that -neighborhood, I--there are some people living around there right now -that I couldn't tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go -out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way. - -Mr. JENNER. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that -right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept -them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her -business at all. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and -Robert? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having -a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do -today. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I mean children back in those days were not like -children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and -they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little -child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I -just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We -didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We -all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any other children in the -neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of -those boys, do you think? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small. -My older ones might remember them. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be Myra and Emile? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; Myra and Emile. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that -might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, -either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you -about it, or anything you might want to contribute? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell -you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after -she moved away we lost track of them. - -Mr. JENNER. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them -and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you -said, the man found you? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and -Marguerite took good care of him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with -your husband to talk to us. - -Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S. -attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, -to read over your deposition and to sign it. - -You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate -knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your -deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write -it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may -come down and read your deposition and sign it. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about -everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the -ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think you were pretty close. - -Mrs. PETERMAN. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday, -or the day before. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you -would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? -You don't want to read it over and sign it? - -Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; I waive it. - -Mr. JENNER. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs. -Peterman. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS - -The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the -Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., -by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first -being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you -here today, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were born here? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have no family, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have -brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named -Marguerite Oswald? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with her? - -Mrs. EVANS. In about 1930. - -Mr. JENNER. About 1930? - -Mrs. EVANS. Something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I guess that's about right. - -Mr. JENNER. She is either 56 or 57 right now. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her -between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of cards? Bridge? - -Mrs. EVANS. We played bridge, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with her? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend--hers and mine, and -we used to play bridge together. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she married then? - -Mrs. EVANS. She was separated from her first husband. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did she live then, do you know? - -Mrs. EVANS. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment -on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know -much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived -right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on -North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular -time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she -was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was. - -Mr. JENNER. What's her sister's name? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I forget. - -Mr. JENNER. Murret? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Mrs. Murret. - -Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance continue for some years? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an -accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a -while, and she remarried--to Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned of that, did you? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; to Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see her from time to time in that interim? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, -but I might have run into her--I imagine I did, on the street, but I -lost contact with her, sort of, and then--it was either just before -Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so -many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I -think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I -think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think -she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember -all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long -time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though -if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if -she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was -after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would -have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became -friends again, as to what happened. - -I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start -seeing a good deal of her again until--let's see; she finally went to -work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that. -She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a -widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband in the meantime had died? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans. - -Mr. JENNER. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Murret? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am -Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party -or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number -of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and -canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh, -Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and -went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and -she said, "Yes." - -Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact. - -Mr. JENNER. When was this, 1959, 1960? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago, -because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact -that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV, -but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance -to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to -it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I -don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and -I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the -paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship," -and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her." - -Mr. JENNER. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was -born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of -him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage, -and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the -child, and he wanted her to destroy the child. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about -Marguerite Oswald, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was -just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his -boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and -went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life -Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived -right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert -in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them -how about him riding them home. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say to him? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting -insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie. - -Mr. JENNER. At whose house? - -Mrs. EVANS. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No, -let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or -divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John -Pic now? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, -and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her -because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was, -oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those -two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he -started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with -him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2 -years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby -right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar -somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from -other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of -it, because we got to be real good friends. - -She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very -happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this -terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called -the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man -was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one -on the way. - -Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her -home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in -this home--Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and -she bought a home over on--what's the name of that street back off of -St. Claude? - -Mr. JENNER. Bartholomew? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home. - -Mr. JENNER. The Bethlehem home? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly -with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was -with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her -sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she -had a woman taking care of the little boy. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did she live there, do you know? - -Mrs. EVANS. You mean on Bartholomew Street? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had -lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she -moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute--I might be getting those streets -confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left -her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home -was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in -that home and went to work. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your information that she immediately went to work -rather than try to live for a while without working? - -Mrs. EVANS. She might have lived for a month or two, or something, -without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she -had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said---- - -Mr. JENNER. What couple was that? - -Mrs. EVANS. I don't know what couple it was--somebody; she had put an -ad in the paper or something--some young couple. I don't know their -names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair, -that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little -Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts -on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now. - -So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and--now, -this is what she told me; she told me that she bought this little -double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room -there. - -Mr. JENNER. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, as I recall, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. What's a "double"? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door -here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes -some places, but we call them doubles. - -Mr. JENNER. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that. - -Mrs. EVANS. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with -her three children. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there -myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the -truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think, -still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other -place--that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on -Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was -between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there--the early -1940's, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time she was living where now? - -Mrs. EVANS. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was -with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She -would go down on Sundays to see her two boys. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain with her sister? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister, -but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I -don't know--I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing -her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, -something like that, you know, just go around a bit together. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what? - -Mrs. EVANS. He was 3 or 4 years old then. - -Mr. JENNER. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't -he? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her -sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she -might have finally put him in there too. - -You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, -generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and -that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I -think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died. - -You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his -father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she -always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort -of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his -father, I think, just as any mother would. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to -1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with -your recollection? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on -Alvar? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. I was told it was in that subdivision. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall her selling that house? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with -her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working, -and I didn't play cards then, you see. - -She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards -with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only -through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned -what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her -all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it -was about a year before she went to Texas. It's hard to recall those -dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened. - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in -there? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; along in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.? - -Mrs. EVANS. Atlantic Avenue? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John -and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs. -Evans? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then she moved to Texas? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With her children, of course? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What occurred about that time? - -Mrs. EVANS. She married again. - -Mr. JENNER. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's why. She married a very, very fine man. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what his name was? - -Mrs. EVANS. You know it; I will give it to you--Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl? - -Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all -right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans? - -Mrs. EVANS. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a -very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to -post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places. -That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't -drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them -then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she -moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. -Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her? - -Mrs. EVANS. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That was his second marriage, isn't that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for -many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he -did get a divorce and married Margie. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where he was from originally? - -Mrs. EVANS. Boston, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.? - -Mrs. EVANS. They did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit them in Dallas? - -Mrs. EVANS. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? - -Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend -of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with -this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was -living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I -visited her. - -Mr. JENNER. Her husband and her two children? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Including Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address -I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that -could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived -downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see--yes, -she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. - -Mr. JENNER. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert, -living at the home? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; they all lived together. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee, too? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to -travel, you say? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was -a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big -company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than -Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, -and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of -that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and -he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking -Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and -all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they -went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went -to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here, -and she took an apartment with me. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind, -let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say -you visited them once in Texas, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that -is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went -to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the -summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there, -even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the -time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three -be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay -in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but -that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the -time like that. - -Mr. JENNER. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had -the boys over at Covington? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the -summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this in 1946? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been, -but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years -for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it -happening. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The -pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission -wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion. - -Mrs. EVANS. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would -take something to remember all of those details. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the boys during that period? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I -remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little -fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because -naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a -better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two -boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they -were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother -can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the -child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but -in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better -woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to -support her children. She tried to support them herself. - -Mr. JENNER. That was her own decision? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take -her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think -that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too -close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much. - -Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but -after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and -she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on -these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee -would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage -because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a -spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him -to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe -both of them--I don't remember, but I think they both went into the -Marines---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older -boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of -course he never did see his father. His father never did care to -see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit -supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to -come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or -Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working -at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came -back to New Orleans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one -time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and -at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said -she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she -answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened -Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a -Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were working at that time also? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant, -and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings -and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at -those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course -she went back to Texas. - -I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas -Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be -in Dallas for a show--some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I -went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with -Margie. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was Margie? - -Mrs. EVANS. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take -anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She -had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would -work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat -house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her -on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I -said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had -known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She -was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of -a bookworm, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a -loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay -too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I -mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself. - -Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't bring boys into the house? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and -he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, -or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler, -"Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs -talking to me or something, and when he would holler at her, she would -jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life -was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about -13 about that time, I think, along in there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your -apartments? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when -they lived at my apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't -with Ekdahl any more when she came back here. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would -like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they -returned from New York? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because -I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean, -he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that -goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think. -I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so -much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when -she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the -full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They -would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I -think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would -say they were really a happy family in those days. - -Mr. JENNER. They were a happy family? - -Mrs. EVANS. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely -knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that -their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what -they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her -children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at -all. She was very decent, a very fine woman. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't -think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have -been able to find out. - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their -children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was -never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and -made do the best she could. - -Mr. JENNER. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with -Margie then? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her while she was in New York? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal -card or something, but I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was -when she came back to New Orleans, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was -living in Texas, before she went to New York? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her -for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. -For a time she lived--what's the name of that little town? - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean Benbrook? - -Mrs. EVANS. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again, -that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living -with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was -right with them all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her on all these trips with Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mrs. EVANS. As far as I know, she did, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did she have Lee with her all the time? - -Mrs. EVANS. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute. -If she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she -talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had -lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when her marriage to Ekdahl took place, Mrs. -Evans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was when she went to Texas, just about at that -time. - -Mr. JENNER. Around 1945, would that have been, in maybe 1944? - -Mrs. EVANS. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas, -Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they -struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. She said that he had had a heart attack, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was courting her during this time? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of -see how he was getting along here, is that correct? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down -here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned -about him. - -Mr. JENNER. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into -marriage then; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Ekdahl's sister approve of Marguerite? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she -went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look -after him. - -Mr. JENNER. Then Margie moved to Texas with Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you say you visited them over there, in Dallas; is that -right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you think you might have heard from her at different -times when she was traveling with her husband? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right--you know, postal cards and such. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that -right? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you said you heard from her again? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the circumstances of that now, please? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's. -She was looking for an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean? - -Mrs. EVANS. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was -a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family. -She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept -house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference -between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But -anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I -could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper -than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have -any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and -her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so -she made out with that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what year that was? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so -I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early -spring, I think it was. - -Mr. JENNER. In the early spring? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been -in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I -can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was this apartment? - -Mrs. EVANS. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie -decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the -fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody -else, and I told her that. - -She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the -apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St. -Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked -at the house, and she thought that she would take it. - -Mr. JENNER. She had an automobile? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; she rode the bus out there. - -Mr. JENNER. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She -just had found a cheaper place to move to? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she -liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it. - -Mr. JENNER. Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite? - -Mrs. EVANS. Just her and Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. You did see Lee after they returned from New York? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6 -months. - -Mr. JENNER. Including Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months? - -Mrs. EVANS. In this apartment, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the No. 6 apartment? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27 -rooms or more. - -Mr. JENNER. It was just one big building; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they -took one of them, you see--one of the smaller apartments. I had had -one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little -apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was at 1454 St. Mary Street? - -Mrs. EVANS. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for -approximately 6 months, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was in 1954, you say? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get to see both of them frequently? - -Mrs. EVANS. Practically every day. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived -at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did -Lee Oswald look like? - -Mrs. EVANS. What did he look like? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you -then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was more spoiled. - -Mr. JENNER. More than before? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he -was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult. -Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not -yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very -trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't -any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New -York; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; after they came here from New York. - -Mr. JENNER. With his mother? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New -York and came to New Orleans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to -me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not -right from New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went -back to Texas from New York. - -Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far -back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I -just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently -was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that -they didn't get along--I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now, -that's my opinion. She never told me why. - -Mr. JENNER. That's just your surmise? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee -in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and -considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't -happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't -have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead -her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love -on him, it seemed like. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in -New York City? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. She never said anything to you that would have given you an -indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas, -or vice versa? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that -she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then -over to New Orleans--Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had -had in school in New York City? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a -man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted, -evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if -you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but -now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell -you that. - -Mr. JENNER. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to -you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York -City? - -Mrs. EVANS. None whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had been in New York City, of -course? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But she didn't say anything to you about it? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time Lee was about 15 years old; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. He was, somewhere around there--maybe 13 or 14. I don't -know exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between -the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother, -and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he -was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you -had seen him before that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he -was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this -time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he -was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was -when he was younger. - -The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he -demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be -downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the -head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something -to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing -me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running -upstairs to get something for him. - -Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he -would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records, -and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure -out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled -teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that -aren't that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a -father to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone, -it's a hard row--I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they -are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over -them like a man can. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean physically? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; physically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she register him in school here in New Orleans when -they came to live in your apartment? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know who registered him. That I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did go to school? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he went to school. - -Mr. JENNER. Which school was that? - -Mrs. EVANS. That was Beauregard, and I might say that she used her -sister's address so she could get him in that school. It's a good -school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time I believe -she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district. -That's the way I understand it anyway. I think there has been some -confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is -my understanding that that's why she used it. If she hadn't used her -sister's address, he couldn't have gone to Beauregard probably, I -mean, if she had moved to another district. So since she wanted him in -Beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it. - -Mr. JENNER. In order to get him in Beauregard, she used her sister's -address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that was a good school. I guess it still is, but she -wanted him in there. Otherwise he would have had to go to another -school. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Beauregard Junior High School; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; and, like I said, a good school; a very fine school. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee a good student, according to information you -received in that regard, if you did receive any such information? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I never saw his report cards, but I think he was a -pretty good student. I really couldn't tell you that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice during this period that you had this recent, -close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that -he was inclined to be by himself? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come -home from school, of course, a couple of hours before Margie, and he -would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to -entertain himself very well. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't go out and play with the other children? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, they had this change in 1955 from 1454 to 1452 St. -Mary. Was that in the same building? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a different apartment, then? - -Mrs. EVANS. I will tell you what happened there. There was this young -couple that wanted that apartment, and I still hear from them. She sold -them her furniture. They were the tenants after her, and she sold them -some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me -she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and -she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and -wanted her apartment back, but I told her that I had already rented her -apartment to this young couple. I said, "Margie, what happened to the -house you were going to get?" and she said, "I looked it over," and she -said, "It's too far from a grocery store. I have no way of getting my -groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient." - -I told her, "Well, I've already rented the apartment to this young -couple," and she said, "I want to keep my apartment," and I said, "But, -Margie, I have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them -some furniture," and she said, "Well, they can have the furniture," but -she said, "Just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that I -have got to keep it." - -Well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. I told her, -I said, "Margie, I just can't do that." To tell you the truth, the way -Lee was acting up and all--he was very noisy, I didn't particularly -want to do it. I knew, in the first place, that the girl simply -couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she -would be behind in her rent and everything. I think she was already -about a month in arrears on the rent, and I just figured it would be -better if I didn't give her the apartment back, so I told her that I -couldn't do it, because I had already rented it to this couple. I knew -that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a -matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling -all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard -feelings if I let it go on that way, so I decided that it would be -better to let it go the way it was going. It seemed to be the best way -out of it. I thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go -ahead and move now, rather than later, so I told her, I said, "Margie, -if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper," -and so, they did move next door. Now, I had told her that I was going -to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let -her down easy--you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went -ahead and moved next door for a while. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that 1452 St. Mary; this place next door? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; right next door. You see--I think I have skipped -something. I told her that I wanted to get the apartment that she had -been in fixed up, and that's how I talked her into taking the place -next door, but then she started complaining and saying I was charging -her too much rent for this place next door, and I wasn't getting the -apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime Lee had -gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his -mother, and it was getting a little unbearable. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" In what -respects was he more determined? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he -had a loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it -got to be quite disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that -was getting worse all the time; so I thought maybe it would be better -if I didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up -anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and -that's when she went to Exchange Alley. - -Mr. JENNER. O.K. That was in April of 1955; is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes, and I never saw her after that. - -Mr. JENNER. You never saw her again? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't see her at Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. She never came to visit you? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; she was angry about the apartment, because I made her -give it up. I mean I wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away. -I don't think she ever got over that. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't come to visit you any more at all? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't get in touch with you at all? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard from or heard about, -Margie or Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. The next thing I heard, they had moved back to Texas. They -had left town. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, her sister, Lillian, I saw her in Holmes or--let's -see, maybe it was at the Fontainbleau, at a card party we were -having--yes; I think that was it; she asked me if I had seen Margie, -and I said, "No; I haven't seen or heard from Margie," and that's when -she told me that she had heard Margie had moved back to Texas. I didn't -know that at all. I had heard from several people that they had seen -Margie downtown. She worked at three or four different places--you -know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once -in a while that I knew, and would say they had seen Margie downtown at -some store or other, but I didn't see her, and then the next thing I -knew she was supposed to be back in Texas, and then I ran into Lillian -again later and she told me--this was at the Fontainbleau. Now, I have -that straight. She told me then about the trouble Lee was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you run into Lillian at that time? - -Mrs. EVANS. At a benefit card party. - -Mr. JENNER. At the Fontainbleau? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did Lillian tell you about Lee on that occasion? - -Mrs. EVANS. She told me that Lee was in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the -Oswald family? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, that was when Lee came to town, and they took an -apartment up on Magazine Street. I can't remember that date now, but -Lee got here a day or two before his wife came in. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in May of 1963? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't remember the date, but it seems like it was -about the middle of May; maybe about May 16, or somewhere close to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that when he took the apartment at 4905 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Was that May 16? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I think it was a little earlier than that, according to -our information. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, whatever date that was, that was the next time I saw -him. I don't know if it was April or May, or even March; I don't know -what date it was, but I got the apartment for him, and he moved in on -the day he rented it, or the next day, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. He moved in on the 10th; would that be about right; the day -after he rented the apartment? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about -right. He moved in the day after, I think it was. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 9th of May? - -Mrs. EVANS. I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May, -and then he moved in on the 10th. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that -apartment, Mrs. Evans. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to -work. He says he recognized him then, but I don't remember it that -way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted -an apartment, and did I have an apartment to rent, and I didn't have -anything in this building, but I told him about another building I was -fixing up, and I told him I might be able to find something for him, -and he told me he had a wife and child over in Texas, and that he was -going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment, -and that he had to find something right now. He said, "I want something -right away." - -When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and -I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, -don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to -see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what -are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought -you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron -Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, -"but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the -States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back -with him; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up -this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie, do you happen -to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one -little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This -is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little -apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and -she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much; he is just -getting a new job." - -Mr. JENNER. What's her name? - -Mrs. EVANS. Mrs. Maynard--Vickie Maynard. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know her husband's first name? - -Mrs. EVANS. Charles--Charlie Maynard. She only saw him for about 15 -minutes; she has no bearing on this. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. - -Mrs. EVANS. So she said, "Myrtle, bring him over, and I'll see you in -about 10 minutes," and I said, "We'll come up and see it," so we got -in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive. -It was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. They -did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for -the baby, but Lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. He -told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with -laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so I said, "Well, come on, -Lee; I don't know anybody that will take children," I said, "but we -will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." So -we rode in and out and all around Baronne and Napoleon and Louisiana -Avenue, and Carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets, -and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode -down Magazine Street, and I said, "You might as well get as close to -your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment." - -Mr. JENNER. Had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the -Reily Coffee Co.? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He told me that he had just got a job with the Reily -Coffee Co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. In fact, he -was going to phone her to come over that Saturday, I believe he said. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of job he had with Reily? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he just told me he was going to work for the Reily -Coffee Co., and that he had been staying at Lillian's, and that he was -anxious for his wife to come to New Orleans, and he said a friend was -going to drive her over here; so we were coming down Magazine Street, -and all of a sudden he said, "Oh, there's a sign," and I said, "Good," -so I pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign, -and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two -apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money. - -It was really the most for your money, I'd say, so I said, "Lee," I -said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford -too much," and I said, "This is the best you can do," and I said, "If -I were you, I would take it," and it had a living room that was a -tremendous room. - -Mr. JENNER. Larger than this room? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they -had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words, -and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long, -and it had a Page fence. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of fence was that? - -Mrs. EVANS. A Page fence--an iron fence, like they use around New -Orleans. You may call them storm fences, but down here they call them -Page fences. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you see through them? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street. -I mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. You can see -through them--these sort of diagonals, I guess you would call them. -Now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of -caretakers. She lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the -other side that they rented. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her name; the lady who lived next door? - -Mrs. EVANS. I don't know. I had her phone number and her name, and -I was going to call her--I did call her once that I remember, but, -nevertheless, I told Lee to give her the money for the gas and light, -in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned -on, because he wanted his wife to come for Saturday. I think this must -have been about Wednesday or Thursday that we were there. He said it -would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife, -who talked Russian, was going to bring her over to New Orleans, and -bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra -room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend -of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home, -and I think I went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and -I think I ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and -some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, I think, -and we talked, and I asked him, I said, "Well, how does it feel to be -back in New Orleans?" and he said, "I have wanted to move back to New -Orleans." He said, "New Orleans is my home," and he said, "I felt like -I just wanted to come back," and he said, "You know, I like the old -high ceilings and the trees and the French Quarter, and everything in -New Orleans," and he said, "You know, in Russia the buildings are brand -new," and we talked a little about Russia--not too much, but he did -tell me how men over in Russia can't rent an apartment if they are not -married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that -you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were -all modern, and they are given to you by the Government, but that you -can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more -about Russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. I -want to hear all about that. - -Mrs. EVANS. What he told me? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; what did he say about defecting to Russia; anything he -said about that? - -Mrs. EVANS. He said he didn't give up his American citizenship; that -that was ridiculous. He told me that he just wanted to see the country -over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen -in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the -housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any -rent, and they had a modern apartment, I think, about on the fourth -floor. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say it was only one room; that there was only one -room to this apartment? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said they had a living room, a bedroom, a dining -room. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that what he said? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had a nice place to live over there. - -Mr. JENNER. He said that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to -live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married. - -Mr. JENNER. When he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several -rooms--a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't know that, do you, Mrs. Evans? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, no; I don't know that. I have never been to Russia. All -I know is what he told me. - -Mr. JENNER. But do you remember him distinctly telling you that his -apartment had all of these rooms? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't remember that. He just said it was a modern -apartment. I remember him saying that. It could have been just one room. - -Mr. JENNER. It could have been one room? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I say, I just don't know. He said it was a -modern apartment, but other than that I don't know what else he said, I -mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether I -even asked him any more about it. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did use the word "apartment," is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had an apartment; I remember that very -plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But he didn't describe the apartment, as far as you can -recall? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I don't remember him doing that. - -Mr. JENNER. And he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted -to defect, but that he had failed? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he said he never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had not attempted to defect? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said that he did not want to give up his American -citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. He said, "I am an -American," and he said, "I just went over there, just messing around." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his -opinion of Russia and his reaction to the life he had in Russia? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad. -I guess he was just a young man in love with this Russian girl, but he -did say now that he had decided not to come back to the States until he -could bring her with him. He did say that, so from that conversation -I gathered that he evidently wanted to come back, but he had married -into a Russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could. - -Now, this Russian woman, I don't know if she was Russian born or not, -but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught -Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean Mrs. Paine? You are talking about Mrs. Paine now? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I didn't even remember her name. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the lady that brought Marina over to New Orleans -from Texas? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; the one that brought Marina and the baby to New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we will get into that in a minute, Mrs. Evans; she's -not a Russian woman, by the way. She's a girl from Columbus, Ohio, that -was a Quaker. - -Mrs. EVANS. Is that right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she did speak Russian, and she was the lady friend of -Marina that was going to bring Marina and the baby to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's right; she does speak Russian? - -Mrs. EVANS. He told me that his wife didn't speak American. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she didn't speak English? - -Mrs. EVANS. Why she didn't? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't -learning the English language since she was living over here? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Lee as of that visit, -Mrs. Evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this -apartment hunting tour? What did you think of Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was, I would say, sort of arrogant. He seemed to -think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he -carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and -keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much--I noticed -all that. I asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother -was fine, and I asked him about his brothers, because his brothers -were both in Texas, and I believe one of them has a child or two, or -something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right. -We were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. You know -how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something--like -we were looking for apartment signs. We were getting out and looking, -and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about -things in general. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you used the expression "arrogant." What did you mean -by that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, you know--I don't know, just the way he talked, and -walked around, I guess. I don't know what gives you that feeling when -you are around somebody like that. He was just different. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he considered himself superior to anybody -else, or to his fellow Americans, or anything like that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to -anybody else. He acted normal in that respect, I guess, but he talked -about Russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said, -"It's good to be back in the United States," and he said he would have -come back before he did if it had not been for this Russian girl that -he married. He said he had been in Texas 8 months then, and I said, -"Well, what made you come back to New Orleans?" and he said, "Well, you -know, this is my home, and I wanted to see my family." - -Mr. JENNER. The Oswald family? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his -family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or -unhappy in Russia? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he -would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had -to wait until he could bring her out of the country. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the service? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, but I found that -out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his -objectives were in life now that he was back home? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any luggage with him? - -Mrs. EVANS. Not when he came to my house. He said he had been staying -at his aunt's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about any of his old friends? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When he was a teenager, did he ever smoke? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to smoke? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or drink? - -Mrs. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was temperate with respect to smoking? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig -into things, and he liked music and books. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked to read, and he liked to listen to the radio. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of music drew his attention, classics? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, symphony--more of the highbrow stuff, I guess you -would say. I don't really remember because this was so many years ago, -and I didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would -come down to my apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Who would? - -Mrs. EVANS. His mother, but I know he liked to listen to his records a -lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. His mother -would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would -sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work, -she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the -way it was with Margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, I -guess you would call it. - -Then after they moved to Texas, like I said, I didn't hear from them -for quite awhile, and then Lee came back and came to the house, and -we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then -after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if I -could come up and meet Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. How long was this after he had moved into the apartment, -can you remember? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I'd say about a week or so, and anyway I thought it -would be nice to go up and meet Marina, and I told him we would try to -come up, because I would like to meet his wife, and he said, "Just come -anytime." He said she was anxious to meet me. Well, of course, I was -busy, so I didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking -at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen, -and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or -something, and it told about this scuffling over this Cuban thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there for a minute now. That's the -first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that Lee Oswald -was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I had no idea that he was mixed up in anything -like this, and I was shocked when I saw his face come on the screen -passing out these handbills in connection with this Cuban thing, so -I told my husband, "Well, they said he went to Russia to give up his -American citizenship; well, maybe he has." I said, "I am certainly not -going up there now," so I didn't go, and I don't know whether this was -before that or after that, but I called up the lady that had rented the -apartment to them--I had asked her for her phone number at the time, -and I told her at the time that I would try to send her some tenants, -so she did give me the number, so I called one time to see how the -Oswalds were getting along. Evidently this must have been after that. I -don't remember. So anyway I called and said---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would that have been Mrs. Garner? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that's right; Garner. I told her, I said, "This is -Myrtle Evans, who helped Lee Oswald get that apartment; how are the -Oswalds getting along," and she said, "You know, they are a queer kind -of people," and she said, "I just told him, 'After all, how do you -expect your wife and your child ever to speak the English language when -all you ever talk to them is in Russian'?" She said, "I told him, 'This -girl doesn't know a word of English, and I can't converse with her at -all'," and she said, "I asked him why he didn't talk to her in English -and let her learn some English so that she can talk to the people that -live here in this country, instead of always in Russian." - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say he said when she said that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, she said he didn't say anything. She said she tried -to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to -help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of English, so she -couldn't understand her anyway. She said that Lee had for some reason -always talked to her in Russian. She said she told him, "She will -never learn to speak English if you keep talking to her in Russian." -Now, that must have been prior to the time that I saw this deal on -television, and then the next thing I knew about Lee, it was all over -television, that he had killed the President, and the rest of it you -know. I didn't even know he was back in Texas. I thought he was still -living on Magazine Street and working at the Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't know he was back in Texas? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never did go back when I saw this flash about -the Cuban situation on TV and Lee's picture all over the screen. I said -"If he is Russian, I don't want to get dragged into it. Maybe they will -think I had something to do with it." - -Mr. JENNER. So you just stayed away, is that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I didn't want to take a chance in getting -involved in anything like that. However, I will say this, I would have -loved to meet Marina. Maybe you can call it curiosity, or something, -but I did want to meet her. She seems to be such a lovely person. I -couldn't tell you where they lived in Texas. I never heard from them -any more after that. I would have liked to tell his mother how sorry I -felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but I just don't -know how to go about something like that now. I guess it's just one of -those things, but I sure do feel sorry for her. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: In the time that you knew Lee, did he pretty -much get his own way? Would you be able to say as to that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say he did; definitely. She would try to give -him everything he wanted--that she could, I mean, and do everything he -wanted her to do. I've seen that happen many times in the time that -I knew them and especially while they lived at my house. I mean, she -couldn't give him a lot of material things. She just didn't have much, -you know, but she would try to pacify him. That boy was so inclined -to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. I guess no -one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. They called him -a "loner", and I guess that's about the best description you can give -him. He was certainly a quiet type boy. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you observe with respect to his relations with -other children? Just how did he regard them? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, to be truthful with you, I never really saw him with -anyone except his mother practically. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you had a discussion with Marguerite -with respect to her leaving Lee with a couple? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes. Marguerite told me that she had this couple at -her home looking after Lee. Lee wasn't 3 at that time, you see, and so -he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began -telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home, -and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home -from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he -had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she -put them out that night. Now, who they were or what their names where, -I don't know, but she said that no one would take Lee, and she just -didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why -she got this couple in the first place. - -Mr. JENNER. Why wouldn't anybody take Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I mean, she couldn't put him in a home. - -Mr. JENNER. Because he was too young? - -Mrs. EVANS. Because he was too young, that's right. The older boys -could be put in a home--in fact, of course, they were, but Lee was not -yet 3 years old, and they have to be 3 before a home will take them. - -She didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes -into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and -everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back, -so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in -the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try -to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry -she ever did that. - -Mr. JENNER. You say Lee denied to you during your discussion with him -that he had ever tried to give up his American citizenship? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just -wanted to see the country, over in Russia, and see how they live and -how the country looks, and so he went into Russia and got a job there -and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and -he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some -way to get her out of the country. Actually he didn't seem to want to -talk too much about it, and I didn't try to pump him too much, but I -was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had -really happened. I do feel that he was sympathetic with the Communist -system of government, I mean, of the Russian system, but now I was only -with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and -his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't -even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and -I was surprised when I heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his brothers and his mother? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said the boys where in Texas, and that his mother -was fine, and that she was in Texas, and I think Robert, or one of -them, had a couple of children. I think that was Robert that had a -couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like -that, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the -United States, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to -Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward -Russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the United -States, and that the only reason he was in Russia working at all was -because he had married this Russian girl and wanted to get her out of -the country, or he would have been back sooner. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his having served in the Marines, -anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was -in the Marines? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his -aunt; I don't know, but I don't even remember if Lee mentioned that -fact in our discussion that day. I don't really remember that. I do -know that he always wanted to go in the Marines. - -Mr. JENNER. He always wanted to go into the Marines? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How do you know that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, because when he was going to Beauregard, he wanted to -be a marine. - -Mr. JENNER. He expressed that to you? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he always wanted to be a marine. He often said that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high -school, but he still lived there? - -Mrs. EVANS. You mean in my apartment? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. No; because they moved from my house, and I lost contact -with them. - -Mr. JENNER. But while they were living in your apartment, did he -actually express a desire to go into the Marines? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was always ambitious to be a marine, as far as I -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since -it wound up that they were both in the Marines? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; I think he wanted to be like his brothers; they -were both in the service, you know. I think John was a marine, but I -can't remember what branch of the service Robert was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, John was in the Coast Guard, I think. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, the Coast Guard, and so Robert must have been in the -marines. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. - -Mrs. EVANS. As long as I have known Lee though, he has wanted to be in -the Marines. That's one of the things he said he always wanted to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that -respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly Lee? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; but Margie was satisfied that her children were going -into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to -college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that -they would go in the service after they got out of high school. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. EVANS. No; you mean the lady who brought Marina to New Orleans? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never even met his wife. I never went there -at all. He called me, like I said, and told me that his wife had come -to New Orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit -them and meet her, and I said, "Lee, I am going to try to come," and I -said, "You-all come to see us," and he said, "Come just any time." He -said Marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at -any time. - -Mr. JENNER. I have no further questions, but I would like to ask you -this general question, Mrs. Evans: - -Does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission -that I haven't asked you about, either because I neglected to do so or -because I haven't learned about it? If you can think of anything, I -will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or -occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the Oswalds. - -Mrs. EVANS. No; I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say his character, and I'm talking about Lee now, -would you say it was strong or weak, or what? For example, did he give -way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control? - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he could get angry with his mother. That was when he -was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he -wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she -would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do. -Of course, I don't know anything about his manhood, because I was only -in his company about 3 or 4 hours then. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual -with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with -him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? That's -what I'm getting at. - -Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type -of person. He was what I would call deep. He wasn't real friendly. To -like him, you would have to know him. I mean, even as a child, you -didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course I -didn't have too much contact with him. Most of my contact with with his -mother. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Evans, I appreciate very much your coming -in and giving me this information, and I know it will be helpful to the -Commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this -matter. - -Now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read -your deposition over and to sign it. It is also your privilege to waive -that. In other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you -want to. You can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead -and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to Washington, -but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it, -and you will be notified by the United States Attorney here when to -come in and read and sign it. - -As I have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other -than by the Commission when and if the Commission deems it necessary. - -What is your pleasure on that now, Mrs. Evans? Do you want to read and -sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that? - -Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I will waive it. I have just told what I know about it, -and that's all I can tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the -reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is -that right? - -Mrs. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you again, Mrs. Evans, for appearing here -voluntarily, and giving us this information. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JULIAN EVANS - -The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old -Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., -by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being -duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Julian Evans, husband of Myrtle Evans, is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition, -is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live at 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Evans, you are a native-born American, is that correct, -sir? - -Mr. EVANS. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you born? - -Mr. EVANS. New York. - -Mr. JENNER. New York City? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in this area? - -Mr. EVANS. New Orleans? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. EVANS. Well, about 54 years. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Evans? - -Mr. EVANS. D. H. Holmes; salesman--major appliances. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived on Prytania, at that address? - -Mr. EVANS. Let's see--it's going on 15 years now. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are Mrs. Evans' second husband, is that right, sir? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you married before? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is -that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; the boy and his mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Marguerite and Lee? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; and there was another brother--two other brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. John Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were -across the lake, around Covington, La.--the three boys and Marguerite, -and Pic--no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was over there with them? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Mr. Ekdahl was from? - -Mr. EVANS. From Boston. That was the first time I ever saw any of the -boys. - -Mr. JENNER. They were then living over in Covington, and that was -during the summer, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that address was over there? - -Mr. EVANS. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a -place over there. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in 1946, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's about right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West -24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know the address. We didn't go to the house. - -Mr. JENNER. You went to a picnic, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; we went to a picnic over there. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children, -is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older -than she was, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was a lot older than Marguerite? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Mr. Ekdahl at that time? - -Mr. EVANS. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to -know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that, -and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr. -Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution -137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the -assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson, -appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take -testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as -in your case; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you -received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate -the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff -of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being -here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have -had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his -lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some -contact with the Oswalds, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a -day on this occasion that you began to tell me about? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You just visited over there on one occasion? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit at Covington on any other occasions? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years -old, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. I guess; he was pretty small. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other two boys were also with her, you say? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; they were all with her over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they in school at the time, do you know? - -Mr. EVANS. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I -believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were -on vacation over there. - -Mr. JENNER. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a -school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he -was attending school, is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I -don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an -out-of-town school, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say -it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were -attending a military school over in Mississippi? - -Mr. EVANS. Those two boys; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The two older boys? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I'm pretty sure that that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee was with his mother; he stayed with her? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; with his mother and Mr. Ekdahl--you mean in Covington -now? - -Mr. JENNER. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in -Covington, isn't that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and -personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they -were not on vacation--when they were moving from place to place in the -pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well, -except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything. - -Mr. JENNER. You noticed that? - -Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was quite apparent to you even though this was -vacation time when you saw them over in Covington? - -Mr. EVANS. I don't understand that. - -Mr. JENNER. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on -this picnic over in Covington that you told us about? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee -wanted his way, and that's what he wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have -heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that yourself? - -Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes, I did; definitely I noticed it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite -or Ekdahl? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before -but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on -Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I -know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her -before. I just don't remember now. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a person was she? - -Mr. EVANS. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman--well -educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart -from this vacation, traveled a lot? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of his work? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Living in hotels? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right; they lived in hotels and also they took Lee -with them. - -Mr. JENNER. They took Lee with them? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; everywhere. - -Mr. JENNER. In traveling on his job? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I -believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other -places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with -Marguerite, did you not? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I -did. She knew her a long time before she was even married. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right; our information shows that. - -Mr. EVANS. She knew her when she lived down on Alvar Street. - -Mr. JENNER. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family, -is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the -background of the Oswald family? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; over the years we have discussed it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife -told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know -what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth. - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at -1454 St. Mary? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you -first come to know them. - -Mr. EVANS. Well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. From where did she come? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't -get along, or something. - -Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret, is that who you are talking about? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; her sister; she lives downtown. - -Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And she is Marguerite's sister? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they -couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and -she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might -rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment -right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, -or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, -but not for the same amount of money, or something like that--I don't -know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, -but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French -Quarter. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, it's some little short street down in the French -Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good -neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that be Exchange Alley? - -Mr. EVANS. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one -time on a week end across the lake with us. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. EVANS. We took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the -lake. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say across the lake, which lake is that? - -Mr. EVANS. Lake Pontchartrain. - -Mr. JENNER. And where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake? - -Mr. EVANS. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over -there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they -stock it themselves and they have some nice fish in there, and so -Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the -other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just -fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought -was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank -after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them -and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would -throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just -throw them down on the river--I mean on the bank by the pond and just -let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left -them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch -them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just -left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We -couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate -he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his -general attitude. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was he at that time? - -Mr. EVANS. He was just a young fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. About 13, 14 or 15 years old, would you say? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to -Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that. - -Mr. JENNER. He first went to Beauregard Junior High School, is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14, -I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would -answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. -That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking -for a place to stay. - -Mr. JENNER. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what -did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean, -did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant? - -Mr. EVANS. He was arrogant. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you remember some incident that would illustrate that -for us? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my -wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he -would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?" - -Mr. JENNER. He would be demanding, you mean? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right -now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed. - -Mr. JENNER. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he -was home, or anything like that? - -Mr. EVANS. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when -she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have -to go right now. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the -regular time? - -Mr. EVANS. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever -stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I -mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever associate with any of the children in the -neighborhood? - -Mr. EVANS. No; he didn't. He didn't associate with anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in -the apartment, or go out, or what? - -Mr. EVANS. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived -upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. -He always had a few books around, paper covered books. - -Mr. JENNER. Paperbacks? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; paperbacks. He had a lot of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he go to the public library and get books? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of -reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I -noticed by him being around the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered -about, or that you thought unusual or strange? - -Mr. EVANS. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times--always -thinking. He was hard to get to. - -Mr. JENNER. He was hard to get to? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever feel that you ever got to know Lee Oswald, Mr. -Evans. - -Mr. EVANS. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did. -I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was -nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand -him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He -never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of -him. - -Mr. JENNER. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might -have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he -wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't -appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with -him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him -to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be -by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any -attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that -way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed -themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at -all with the way he acted. - -Mr. JENNER. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but -when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't -be friendly; see if we care"; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was -given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was -that all about? Could you explain that? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from -upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and -so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that -she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, -that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very -noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have -him back in that apartment for that reason--because he was actually -disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really -tell when he was home. - -Mr. JENNER. You could? - -Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft -voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and -it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't -seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all -right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady, -and Mrs. Oswald about that time? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that -she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that -at all, and then she moved away. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee was a very impervious fellow? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn -voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He -would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He -had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over -other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about -or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald? - -Mr. EVANS. When he came back there to look for an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been last spring? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. May? - -Mr. EVANS. Around May. - -Mr. JENNER. May of 1963? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and -I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon, -but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and -she helped him get an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first -met him that day? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it -was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. A fishy handshake, was it? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's -the way he shook hands. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average -person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he -had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of -a mechanic. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your -house that day? - -Mr. EVANS. You mean in connection with this Cuban thing? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; anything about that? - -Mr. EVANS. No; that came after that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to -your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; she answered the door? - -Mr. JENNER. She answered the door? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he -could find one, or what? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and -they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your wife recognize him then? - -Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Immediately? - -Mr. EVANS. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed -that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was -about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was -the same Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized him right away; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had -to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to -get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I -didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife -was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, -and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office. -Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, -and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the -Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. JENNER. He had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.? - -Mr. EVANS. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed -to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over -from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my -wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the -apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your wife question him in your presence about his -alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had -renounced his American citizenship? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He -said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said -he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did -not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we -knew, we were watching television, and his picture came on there, as -big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I -think it was on Canal Street--no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway, -the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Could that have been "Fair Play for Cuba"? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when you saw this on the screen? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in -this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife -had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on -Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not -to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved -in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their -apartment on Magazine Street; is that right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And they never did visit you after that, either; is that -right? - -Mr. EVANS. That's right. They didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this -breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first -showed up--at least, before you left for work? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were -there, at least? - -Mr. EVANS. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I -had to get to the office. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee Oswald in any fits of temper, so to -speak? - -Mr. EVANS. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that, -but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother -and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like -that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though, -I could tell that he was very demanding of her. - -Mr. JENNER. Very demanding of his mother? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. What other impressions did you have of this boy? - -Mr. EVANS. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was -so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt -that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything -he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or -anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his -mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding -of his mother than he was, and he was her husband. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee came between her and Mr. -Ekdahl? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald. - -Mr. EVANS. Marguerite? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. EVANS. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; -intelligent, very soft spoken--a beautiful woman, with black hair -streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since -this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like -she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, -compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion -plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just -recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other -way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't -have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked -that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely -gray, and she really looks old. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, she's 57, I believe. - -Mr. EVANS. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks -about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw -this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when -it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you home when her picture came on television, along -with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest? - -Mr. EVANS. No; I was at the store at the time. It was on television -there. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do when you saw it? - -Mr. EVANS. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the -television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I -said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said, -"No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for -yourself." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would -lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence -on the person of anybody else? - -Mr. EVANS. No; he was a good talker. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a good talker? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his -age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted -for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his -expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud -voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother -or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty -awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She -would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that -she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a -kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about -changing then, at that early age. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other -children? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of this man in general when he -came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him? - -Mr. EVANS. In what way? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial -status? - -Mr. EVANS. You mean this boy? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or -the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you -learn about that? - -Mr. EVANS. Well I don't think he had any money. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any -outside source of money? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife -and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because -we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he -couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what -seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors -and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of -this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was -getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and -taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for -anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you saw no evidence of him having any money? - -Mr. EVANS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think it possible that he might have received any -substantial quantities from any other source? - -Mr. EVANS. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he -didn't have a coat on that I ever saw. - -Mr. JENNER. No coat? - -Mr. EVANS. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of -any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have -been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him. -I don't think his brothers helped him any. - -Mr. JENNER. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to -the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have -asked you about, or that I just didn't know about, and that you think -might be of assistance to us in this investigation? - -Mr. EVANS. No; not a thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, -and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your -deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that -right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be -forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your -preference in that regard? - -Mr. EVANS. I will waive that. - -Mr. JENNER. You will waive that privilege? - -Mr. EVANS. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have -already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just -wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in -his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at -least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him -that I could arrive at my own opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in -voluntarily and answering these questions. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PHILIP EUGENE VINSON - -The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. VINSON. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination -of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of -witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of -Congress No. 137. - -The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice -prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think -you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that -notice if you want to. - -I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to -waive it and go ahead. - -Mr. VINSON. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that -I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the -rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking -of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to -them as you wish. - -The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey -Oswald in the second grade? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While that may not seem to have too much relationship -to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission -is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that -area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the -second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some -relevance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would -like you to state your full name. - -Mr. VINSON. Philip Eugene Vinson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Vinson? - -Mr. VINSON. 4325 Baell Street, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth -newspaper, is that correct? - -Mr. VINSON. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspaper? - -Mr. VINSON. The Fort Worth Star Telegram. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by them? - -Mr. VINSON. Since July 15, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work have you been doing for them? - -Mr. VINSON. Reporter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general -reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing? - -Mr. VINSON. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in -covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth, -and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the -two reporters in this bureau at this time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are actually presently located or based in -Arlington; is that correct? - -Mr. VINSON. That's right. We have an office in Arlington. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to -work for the newspaper? - -Mr. VINSON. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What other jobs have you had? - -Mr. VINSON. When I started, I was given the routine work that most -beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just -general assignments on the city side or working through the city -editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks. - -During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they -were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4 -days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about -6 weeks. - -And then around the first of September I became a full-time police -reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police -reporter until about October the 1--excuse me, until about, I would -say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the -dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than -2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish -this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter -to come out to work in Arlington. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Vinson? - -Mr. VINSON. Twenty-three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. VINSON. July 6, 1940. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. VINSON. Childress, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? - -Mr. VINSON. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about -120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of -Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live there? - -Mr. VINSON. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception. -We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months, -and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was -this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to -live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find -us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now, -because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you and your mother finally moved to Fort Worth? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and -that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been -the second grade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the first grade in Childress? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to the second grade in what school? - -Mr. VINSON. Lily B. Clayton Elementary School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live in Fort Worth at that time? - -Mr. VINSON. 661 Seventh Avenue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers or sisters? - -Mr. VINSON. I have one brother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Older or younger? - -Mr. VINSON. Younger. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he? - -Mr. VINSON. Three. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton -School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you first met him? - -Mr. VINSON. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own -words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the -second grade? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually -became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I -got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there -before I got there. - -In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year. - -The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we -would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in -games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and -allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little -groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs. - -We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several -key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they -were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being -the leaders. - -But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, -you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I -recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of -these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other -gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many kids were involved in this altogether? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, the boys in our class. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The boys in your second grade? - -Mr. VINSON. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may -be 15 or so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, now, you mean in the class? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. VINSON. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they -were--there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, -and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but -I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys. - -And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people -in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very -vague, but I do remember this. - -And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it -seemed that the other boys used to look up to his--let me start over. -They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky -and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of -little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big -and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what -I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a -year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later -on. - -And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to -be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a -member of his little group. - -And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a -tough-guy type, although not as a bully. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't a bully? - -Mr. VINSON. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I -remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he -had any tendencies like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody? - -Mr. VINSON. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out -on the schoolground. Really not out of anger. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys -who you have described as bullies? - -Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you a member of Oswald's gang? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of -thing, you know, and I don't know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these -out-of-school activities? - -Mr. VINSON. I don't remember anything about him out of school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I mean out of the classroom? - -Mr. VINSON. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, -I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the -teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I -shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she -had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember -that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember -Oswald ever having this happen to him. - -He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just -about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very--my -recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot -of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed -to be a quiet type of kid. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of -the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think -he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were -several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he -was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And -this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our -teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name? - -Mr. VINSON. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade -at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class -who had remembered him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what his name was? - -Mr. VINSON. Bill Barnes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Barnes? - -Mr. VINSON. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that -year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school -1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had -occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth. - -He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or -something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run -across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw -him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with him his recollection of Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I couldn't get hold of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just -didn't get an answer at the house or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with -Barnes about Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she -talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother -repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell -you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother -about Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, -but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he -remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask -him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of -Popeye, "I eat me spinach". - -That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I -recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would -say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I -took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or -something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him -as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the -gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort -of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough. - -But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and -possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a -speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what--was -one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any -particular difficulty getting along with the other boys? - -Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did -after--outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good -many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever -played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They -could have, but I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact -that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground? - -Mr. VINSON. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed -strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at -the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to -Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or -outside of the playground, at that time? - -Mr. VINSON. I knew of none, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Oswald lived? - -Mr. VINSON. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen -him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I -thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I -never knew anyone who did, or anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald had any brothers or sisters? - -Mr. VINSON. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade -at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort -Worth? - -Mr. VINSON. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do -recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school -with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one -of them. I just don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What school did you go to? What school after you left -Lily B. Clayton? - -Mr. VINSON. G. E. Talldy Elementary School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to high school from elementary school? - -Mr. VINSON. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth -grade, and then to junior high for 3 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What junior High. - -Mr. VINSON. Meadowbrook Junior High. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Fort Worth, also? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And from there you went to high school? - -Mr. VINSON. Polytechnic High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Also in Fort Worth? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you gone to college? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. VINSON. I went to two colleges. I went to Arlington State College. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For how long? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went -there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and -the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one -semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960. - -Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and -in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring -of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there -that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The -spring of 1963--excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from that school? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in? - -Mr. VINSON. Journalism. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily -B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else? - -Mr. VINSON. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an -article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to -school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and -we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the -story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name, -and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class -pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I -could never find the teacher that--the day I was trying to do this and -I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in -the second grade. - -But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying -to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could -help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life -Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had -seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for -a short time, and he told me just a few things. - -I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what -elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although -he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He, being Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Garrett know of Oswald in the sixth grade? - -Was that Lily B. Clayton? - -Mr. VINSON. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson -who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it. -I see you have a copy there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears -in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and -sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it -was Ridglea West Elementary School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the -basis of the article? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember -offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is -accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the George Clark Elementary School? - -Mr. VINSON. No. That was another year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe Oswald did originally go to that school? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And -then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you talk to Garrett about? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember -offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known -Oswald in the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he -says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then -he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high -school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him, -that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him -if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said -that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and -remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something -about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the -idea of communism. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Oswald was in the Arlington High School? - -Mr. VINSON. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to -the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not -see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or -expelled or what the situation was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree -at this point? - -Mr. VINSON. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he -gave me this communism pitch." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high -school he was in? - -Mr. VINSON. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore -year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if -this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the -10th grade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you anything else? - -Mr. VINSON. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help -me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he -remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school -Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort -Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the -second grade? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of that with you? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't -know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in -effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't -told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned -something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good -grades. - -Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way -it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory -he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I -don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who -did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along -those lines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to -anybody who knew Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the -telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story. -Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star -Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort -Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did -talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about -Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, -and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who -had a picture that Life could borrow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find one? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and -at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came -down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at -the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the -other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life -Magazine which we mentioned above? - -Mr. VINSON. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the scene in this picture on page 68-B? - -Mr. VINSON. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or -in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade. -Maybe the third. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to -be near the Lily B. Clayton School? - -Mr. VINSON. No; it doesn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with -this article? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what -he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is -that correct? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I -understand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what -he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is -that correct? - -Mr. VINSON. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the -story that I wrote in the Star Telegram. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him this personally? - -Mr. VINSON. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather -than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just -quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story. -However, I noticed---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your -story in the Fort Worth Star? - -Mr. VINSON. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of -the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code, -I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year -olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the -only big change. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about -Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. Well, about what I knew of Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. VINSON. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked -to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what -I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I -had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And -this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of -the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get -some pictures, and he went to--went ahead and contacted them anyway -after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent -than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it -in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures, -and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the -people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who -at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team -football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come -out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what -Jackson told me and what I have read in the story. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Ruggieri? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with him? - -Mr. VINSON. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something -to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't -show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that -gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted -Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't -have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything -about that, did he? - -Mr. VINSON. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He -didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and -he had disappeared after a few days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying, -"I told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish -practice with a sprint, just like the others. - -"He gave me the same answer. I told him to hand in his cleats." - -The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made -to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, -saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he -didn't want to. - -Did you ever discuss this subject with Ruggieri? - -Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and -didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him -for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if -he knew him. - -I believe I didn't even ask him anything specifically about Oswald. - -I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to -try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did -he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for -Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't -remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it. - -But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to -speak with Jackson than he was with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever talked to you? - -Mr. VINSON. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Secret Service? - -Mr. VINSON. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last -night when he called and asked me to come over here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered -that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your -knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about -Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has -probably been brought to your attention, I don't know--I feel sure -it has--of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on -the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual -thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding -the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it -on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was -told about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the -Commission. - -Mr. VINSON. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I -am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make -any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the -rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without -a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says -in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently -shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in -March. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope -on it when he bought it? - -Mr. VINSON. I think this just was something that came out in my -discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation -just--somebody just made the observation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a -telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of -Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mr. VINSON. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand -Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only -scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out -in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not as far as anybody else knows. - -Mr. VINSON. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I -think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the -scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in -the fall of '63. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There may well be something to that effect, but that -doesn't necessarily make it so. - -Mr. VINSON. I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to -anybody that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope -for Oswald? - -Mr. VINSON. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted -to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my -newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police -station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I -was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was -the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed -there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of -generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was -when it first came to my attention. - -Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the -reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald, -immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when -I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I -even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over -here that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about -your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him -that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this -point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on -such short notice. - -Mr. VINSON. I am happy to do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission appreciates your cooperation. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CONWAY - -The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the -testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. CONWAY. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal -staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren -Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress -of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances -leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President -John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon -B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the -Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The -Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the -Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as -the Warren Commission. - -The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and -to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose -name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had -some contact with a man by that name? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And we want to ask you a few questions about it. - -Mr. CONWAY. I will be glad to answer them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a -native Texan, are you? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age? - -Mr. CONWAY. I'm 57, will be 58 next month. - -Mr. JENNER. I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your business, occupation, or profession is what? - -Mr. CONWAY. Tool inspector for General Dynamics. - -Mr. JENNER. The General Dynamics Corp.? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Conway off the -record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as -tool inspector for GD? - -Mr. CONWAY. I am sorry--will take me a moment to think. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. CONWAY. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there--in -1945--August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is -when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any connection with Leslie Welding Co., at any -time? - -Mr. CONWAY. With what? - -Mr. JENNER. With Leslie Welding Co.? [Spelling] L-e-s-l-i-e. - -Mr. CONWAY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of Tommy Bargas? - -Mr. CONWAY. I can't recall--I don't recall that name Tom Bargas--I -don't recall the name. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact -with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two -doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses. - -Mr. JENNER. Ewing? - -Mr. CONWAY. Ewing; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is a single-family frame dwelling? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and -dining room together. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. CONWAY. I'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there. - -Mr. JENNER. You say "they," who is that? - -Mr. CONWAY. His mother and his older brother, who is a half brother. - -Mr. JENNER. John Pic? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; his oldest brother, and then Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. So, there were three boys and a mother? - -Mr. CONWAY. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a husband or father? - -Mr. CONWAY. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest -one on the place. - -Mr. JENNER. And about how old was he at that time? - -Mr. CONWAY. I believe he was around 8 or 9. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see, let's see--what year was that? - -Mr. CONWAY. Oh, it must have been--I'm not quite sure, but I moved -there in 1948, and I'm not sure--I moved there in September or October. - -Mr. JENNER. October of 1948? - -Mr. CONWAY. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of -the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there. - -Mr. JENNER. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you -are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old. - -Mr. CONWAY. Approximately--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had children at that time? - -Mr. CONWAY. I had one daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Age? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed--I don't know -exactly when my daughter was born--1933, I believe, so that would be 15. - -Mr. JENNER. About 15 years old? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with -Lee who was then 9 years old? - -Mr. CONWAY. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John. -She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have -been slightly older than her, maybe 1-1/2 or 2 years, I'm not quite -sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Your daughter is now married? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her married name? - -Mr. CONWAY. Mrs. J. C. Bell (Spelling) B-e-l-l. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? - -Mr. CONWAY. She lives on Santa Fe, I think, it's 2904. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her telephone number? - -Mr. CONWAY. CI 4-2394, it would be--Circle. I'm almost sure that's -right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Conway living? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did the family live there? - -Mr. CONWAY. How long did they live there? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. CONWAY. I think almost 4 years--it was in the vicinity of 4 years. -It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was -approximately 4 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And did these boys come to your attention? - -Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of -mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand. -I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that so? - -Mr. CONWAY. I think so--John is a fine fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic, -you came to know the other boys, too? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; fairly well. - -Mr. JENNER. In and around the neighborhood? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the -time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him? - -Mr. CONWAY. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the -neighborhood was all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a -judgment as to his general disposition? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that and tell us something--some -incidents about it? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile -nature--he was mean when he was angry, just ornery--he was vicious -almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with -his two brothers, Robert and John? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; John was a very genuine character, a fine boy. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Robert? - -Mr. CONWAY. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't -very often get into much trouble. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing like Lee? - -Mr. CONWAY. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for -children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in -the neighborhood? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually -seeing him fight--the children didn't fight with him much, they got out -of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to -catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have -caught one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4 -years or were they isolated incidences? - -Mr. CONWAY. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things -not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my -mind. I didn't see him very often--I have seen him try to fight with -his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they -would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try -to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that--I don't--it's -been a long time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he left alone a good deal? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; quite a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that circumstance, will you please? - -Mr. CONWAY. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately -because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get -home--I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where -is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like -that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out. -He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him -play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate -knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being -absolutely sure--I'm not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his -mother, worked? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of -where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually -worked nights--I usually worked nights. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this -4-year period as a rule? - -Mr. CONWAY. I believe it was. I'm not absolutely sure but I believe it -was. - -Mr. JENNER. At least off and on during the 4-year period you did work -nights? - -Mr. CONWAY. I'm almost sure that I did. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and -after school at least? - -Mr. CONWAY. It's funny, but I'm not so--not absolutely sure what year I -started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort -Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that -was the--was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before -they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second -shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible -since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift -almost all times they were there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when the family moved? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it -must have been in 1951 or 1952. - -Mr. JENNER. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that -would be 1952. - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the -family moved? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Take this boy who you took a particular interest in--John -Pic. - -Mr. CONWAY. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to -me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful -cloudy on that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, have you exhausted your recollection on that? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't know--I remember talking to John--John, when -he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember -talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast -Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe -he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard -before his mother moved away. - -Mr. JENNER. You--could you refresh your recollection that he did leave -before the mother and Lee left? - -Mr. CONWAY. I believe I remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was in the Coast Guard and stationed in New York? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. New York City, Staten Island, as a matter of fact? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and -I believe--I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that -she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John -left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my -contact with them. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when -Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service? - -Mr. CONWAY. That, I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the -names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this -vicinity, whom you think might recall him. - -Mr. CONWAY. What year did you say he was born in? - -Mr. JENNER. 1939, October 18. - -Mr. CONWAY. 1939---- - -Mr. JENNER. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of -age--this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next -October. - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live -across the street. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me their full name and address and telephone number, -if you will? - -Mr. CONWAY. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was -fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by -house. The Masseys don't remember--I don't believe Barbara Anne does, -Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, -but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Barbara Anne living with her folks? - -Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; she's married now. I don't know what her last name -is. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs. -H. R. Massey. - -Mr. CONWAY. [Spelling] M-a-s-s-e-y. - -Mr. JENNER. And they live across the street from you? - -Mr. CONWAY. That's right--they live at 7425 Ewing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I have your permission to talk with Mrs. Conway? - -Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I suggested that she come with me and save a trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, that would have been nice. - -Mr. CONWAY. I don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants -to do. - -Mr. JENNER. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if -she is free, tomorrow afternoon. - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has -been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her -memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call -out home sometime tonight? - -Mr. CONWAY. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. And we will leave it up to her? - -Mr. CONWAY. I'm sure she would be glad to do all she could. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you think of any others? - -Mr. CONWAY. The Turners, they just live--oh, Bill Bridges would be -the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the -neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was -older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old -as my daughter. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I might talk with him on the telephone. - -Mr. CONWAY. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I -believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Halliburton, Tex.? - -Mr. CONWAY. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home -office is. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen him around Fort Worth? - -Mr. CONWAY. Bill? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. CONWAY. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his -family and it's been quite a little while ago. - -Mr. JENNER. His first name is William and his last name is what? - -Mr. CONWAY. Bridges (spelling) B-r-i-d-g-e-s. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can -find him that way. - -Mr. CONWAY. He is with Halliburton, I remember the last time I talked -to him. - -Mr. JENNER. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was -attending elementary school, what elementary school is that? - -Mr. CONWAY. I'm sorry--I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. And the high school? - -Mr. CONWAY. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing -so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with -Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I knew Mrs. Oswald. She was in my house a few times. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of -Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the--to her care of these -boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period. - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I think she was--my impression was that she felt -burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards -her children. - -Mr. JENNER. Selfish? - -Mr. CONWAY. Selfish--yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that? - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared -to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't -care--they were embarrassed about their dress. - -Mr. JENNER. They were? - -Mr. CONWAY. Some of them were--John, especially and sometimes Robert, I -think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good -kids about it, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did John speak to you on that subject? - -Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his -mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about--hearsay, -you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me -that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should -buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why -she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of -the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, -"She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from this remark that you just made that the -boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school? - -Mr. CONWAY. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a -time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this -distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job. - -Mr. JENNER. And did Robert work also? - -Mr. CONWAY. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Lee? - -Mr. CONWAY. I don't think so. Robert would have if he could have gotten -a job. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he -industrious or not? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he was--you mean Robert? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I mean Lee. - -Was he industrious? - -Mr. CONWAY. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he -was too small. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an -emotional child? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush -and he would just storm at other children. - -Mr. JENNER. He was quick to anger? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes; quite quick. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive -child? - -Mr. CONWAY. I suppose so--I thought he was a very strange type of -person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average -in intelligence around that age--being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch -on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your middle initial, do you have one? - -Mr. CONWAY. P. (Spelling) P-i-e-r-c-e. - -Mr. JENNER. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding -Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie -Welding in Fort Worth? - -Mr. CONWAY. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram--that--there's more -than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand. -I never heard of Leslie Welding. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald worked for Leslie Welding at one time. - -Mr. CONWAY. He did? - -Mr. JENNER. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway -and that's why I started out with you on that. - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952, -from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CONWAY. Never saw him again. - -Mr. JENNER. Or John? - -Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I see John. - -Mr. JENNER. He comes to visit you occasionally? - -Mr. CONWAY. John never comes to Fort Worth without coming to see me. - -Mr. JENNER. And Robert? - -Mr. CONWAY. Robert never comes to see me. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert lives in Fort Worth. - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't ever see him at all. - -Mr. JENNER. He never comes back to pay you a visit? - -Mr. CONWAY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And Marguerite, have you seen her since they left? - -Mr. CONWAY. Since when---- - -Mr. JENNER. Since 1952? - -Mr. CONWAY. My wife has talked with her since then. Just briefly. - -Mr. JENNER. Since November 22d? - -Mr. CONWAY. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just -a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks. -She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I -saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times -on television and she looks just like she always did except a little -heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I -remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated -to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in -its work? - -Mr. CONWAY. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think -of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even -to go with what you have. - -When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he -had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John--you see, I taught Bill -and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee -picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee -would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would -lose a game. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard that, too? - -Mr. CONWAY. Yes, I have heard he would become angry. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your -deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to -waive that privilege. - -Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't care anything about reading it--I know what I -have said. - -Mr. JENNER. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your -deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET - -The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first -being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. -Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of -your deposition. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, -three documents. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the -legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission -to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our -President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson -appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive -Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the -taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive -those? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret--and don't feel -offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads -and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, -then it will be in the record. Do you understand that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch -head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed -to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. -Murret? - -Mrs. MURRET. I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents -that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the -facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, -1963, did you not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal -staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee -Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th -of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission -a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our -purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as -you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with -whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We -understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with -you, that you will be able to help us. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will if I can. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing -going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about -Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your -knowledge. - -Mrs. MURRET. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and -I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your -knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water. - -(Glass of water given to witness.) - -Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee -Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret? - -Mrs. MURRET. Claverie. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that? - -Mrs. MURRET. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E. - -Mrs. JENNER. And your first name is Lillian? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you born in New Orleans yourself? - -Mrs. MURRET. New Orleans; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were your brothers and sisters born here? - -Mrs. MURRET. They were. - -Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana--Cajuns. - -Mr. JENNER. Cajun and American? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not my grandparents. - -Mr. JENNER. Not your grandparents? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. On my father's side were from France, and my -grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a -question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it -is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my -first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is? - -Mrs. MURRET. What my age is? - -Mr. JENNER. How old are you? - -Mrs. MURRET. I will be 64 in May, May 17. - -Mr. JENNER. And how old is Marguerite? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think she should be 57. - -Mr. JENNER. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret. - -Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many -times she was married, to whom, in chronological order. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known -her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic. - -Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that P-I-C? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an -explanation for that, do you think? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because -the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward -John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know -which way it is. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took -place? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything -like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they -were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not -really too accurate as to years. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, as closely as you can come to it. - -Mrs. MURRET. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall -exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't -remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 -years, we'll say---- - -Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about -that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you -present? What do you know about that marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it -took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have -taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that -or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very -long time. - -Mr. JENNER. She had known him for some time before she married him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known him for some time before she married him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he do as a stevedore? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it -was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people. - -Mr. JENNER. He is alive? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. -I don't know what the initials stand for. - -Mr. JENNER. T. as in Thomas? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And B. as in Benny? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Smith? - -Mrs. MURRET. Smith, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. -The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, -saw him out there, but it was from a distance. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite -married Edward John Pic? - -Mrs. MURRET. I was already married. - -Mr. JENNER. You were already married then? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John -Pic, does he? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a -distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I -would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long -ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very -peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless -you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or -something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say -anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't -guess some of it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or -not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information -assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything -that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the -Commission in this investigation. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said -he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than -he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for -Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and -Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and -somebody else--lawyers. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Sere a lawyer? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers -together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer -too. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell his name? - -Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Sere? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. S-E-R-E. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Sere still alive? - -Mrs. MURRET. He is not. - -Mr. JENNER. He is dead? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about -Marguerite's first marriage. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she -told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said -Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, -and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and -rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and -then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that -Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at -that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that -rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they -took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and -so forth while she was working. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was she then? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, let's see--John must be about 31 years old now. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean her son John? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years -before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, -but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that -be about right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Twenty-six--I don't think she was that old; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, 31 from 57 is 26. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she -was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. -Let's see--well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, -you see. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh--well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 -years. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in -there. I didn't think she was 26 yet. - -Mr. JENNER. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 -years old; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's about right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her formal education? - -Mrs. MURRET. She had a high school education. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say -about 2 years, and then they moved into another location. - -Mr. JENNER. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, -previous to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied -to her as to his income, did you not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City -Park area; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And she found when they went out there, or whatever -occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was -making; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And so she went back to work. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't -she? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, -but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park -area. That was when I was referring to. - -Mr. JENNER. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in -sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. -I have forgotten which section that was. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became -pregnant. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that when they had the house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that -they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it -was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section. - -Mr. JENNER. Carrollton? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, -and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was -pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support -her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact -that she was pregnant. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't want any children? - -Mrs. MURRET. He didn't want any children, that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 -years; would that be about right? - -Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close? - -Mrs. MURRET. We were very close. - -Mr. JENNER. Very close? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and -we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and -Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your -brothers and sisters. Your father died when? - -Mrs. MURRET. My father? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he died about 33 years ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Thirty-three years ago? - -Mrs. MURRET. About that; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when did your mother die? - -Mrs. MURRET. My mother died about 1911. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, she preceded your father? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; -is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 -years of age? - -Mrs. MURRET. I was married when my father died. I had three children -when my father died. One child was a baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is -yourself, your sisters, and your brothers? - -Mrs. MURRET. I have two brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. Two brothers? - -Mrs. MURRET. And we were four sisters. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now give me the brothers' names. - -Mrs. MURRET. Their names are Charles and John. - -Mr. JENNER. Charles Claverie and John Claverie? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Are they alive? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 -months apart. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they teenagers? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the -other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted -tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that Charles or John? - -Mrs. MURRET. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB. - -Mr. JENNER. And he died at age 18? - -Mrs. MURRET. Around that; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had four sisters, you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. Including myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; including yourself. - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. One sister was Marguerite. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And yourself, Lillian. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who else? - -Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that pronounced Aminthe? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Aminthe. - -Mr. JENNER. That sounds French, is it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it's French. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, what's the other sister's name? - -Mrs. MURRET. Pearl. She died. - -Mr. JENNER. Pearl is dead? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is Aminthe living at the present time? - -Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe is living in Knoxville. - -Mr. JENNER. Knoxville, Tenn.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Tennessee, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it Charles was the oldest? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and I was next. - -Mr. JENNER. You were next? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; John was next. - -Mr. JENNER. John was next? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was -Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. John was third. - -Mrs. MURRET. John was third, that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Marguerite was fourth? - -Mrs. MURRET. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth. - -Mr. JENNER. How about Pearl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, let's see--that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth. - -Mr. JENNER. And Pearl was fifth? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was -sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just -so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, -Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was Pearl when she died? - -Mrs. MURRET. She died recently. She was about 54. - -Mr. JENNER. She was in her fifties? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she die of natural causes? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occupation of your father? - -Mrs. MURRET. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. -He worked for them approximately around 40 years. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken -out the first mule car, I think--when they had mule cars, before they -had the handbrakes on the cars. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal -education, beyond high school? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John -who died when he was 18? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did John finish high school? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Charles? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made -about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on -this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," -and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to -someone, and I never did get it back. - -Mr. JENNER. How unfortunate. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything -that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, -you know, back and forth. He was a gunner. - -Mr. JENNER. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser? - -Mrs. MURRET. On the transport. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a gunner on a transport? - -Mrs. MURRET. Transport; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is -alive; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Aminthe is alive too. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you complete high school? - -Mrs. MURRET. I did not. I didn't even go to high school. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you complete elementary school? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Pearl? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was -probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, -or did she? - -Mrs. MURRET. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but -she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then -she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and -my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some -cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I -being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We -were just trying to keep the family together more or less. - -You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, -and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got -old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would -help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy -family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much -happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My -father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his -family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right. - -Mr. JENNER. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of -this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family -and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I -don't want you to think I am just being curious. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out the family background so that we -can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey -Oswald. You understand? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life -I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very -happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but -we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you -say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her -attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her -personality. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a -very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at -all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her. - -Mr. JENNER. I think she's nice looking. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty -girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along -with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about -that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all -the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course -she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an -opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were -wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you and Marguerite get along now? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't -say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, -and how you got along then. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, when we were girls, we got along. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with -her, anything like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to -think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like -that. We did get along pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you -had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage -to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did -you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, -whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite -her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. -Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. -I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, -just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, -I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, -because there were things where we just didn't think alike. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was -wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. She thought you were wrong? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about -it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about -anything. She would just, you know, fly off. - -Mr. JENNER. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a -source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding -controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any -change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything -that you can recall of that nature? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or -whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just -go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from -her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she -probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to -New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold -anything in, you know what I mean, things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and -sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they did for a while. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for -your sister Aminthe; isn't that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville. - -Mr. JENNER. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans -area? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of -course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really -anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when -I first got married, she stayed with me then. - -Mr. JENNER. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed -together. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your husband and your father and your sister -Marguerite stayed together? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the business or occupation of your husband? - -Mrs. MURRET. What is his occupation? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, -but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other -words. - -Mr. JENNER. Different what? - -Mrs. MURRET. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he -doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. -He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have -work, he will work for someone else. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what else you know about John Pic. - -Mrs. MURRET. What else? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, about Edward John Pic. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. -She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she -was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I -think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give -me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, -what was the reason or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; she left John. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she leave him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would -do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would -think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a -chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she -left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of -the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Before they were divorced? - -Mrs. MURRET. Before they were divorced; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that a little? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; if I can. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her -personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference -from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she -would act without thinking things over? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her -mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast -without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a -problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will -have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. -She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she -made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would -find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick -decisions. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl -as well as a mature lady? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything like that before she was -married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no. - -Mr. JENNER. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that -she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick -acting in her personality? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. And you think she failed to think things over, that she -didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes -ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she -needed to reach a decision, is that it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over -before I did them, but she wouldn't. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that? - -Mrs. MURRET. You can call it that if you like. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you -really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I -don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a -tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want -you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality -characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City -Park section, in Carrollton. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that for me, please? - -Mrs. MURRET. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n. - -Mr. JENNER. Carrollton? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs -from yours. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my southern drawl. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a -distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not -a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation -which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. -I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's -as long as your arm. - -I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, -with a sharp enunciation. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was she working at that time? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; she was not working then. - -Mr. JENNER. How was she being supported? - -Mrs. MURRET. Eddie was supporting her. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that -time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to -pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he -contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until -he was 18 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 -years old, she married Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a minute. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward -Pic embittered her? - -Mrs. MURRET. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She -seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she -show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting -along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from -him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. -We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I -would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner -and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he -was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said -she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come -over and stay a while, and he did. - -Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, -but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, -was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an -infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was -cruel, because I don't believe in that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she -refused to permit her former husband to see the child? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the -child or not. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she -wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, she wouldn't. - -Mr. JENNER. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have -desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't -know that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie -see the child; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't -think, not after he was a child. - -Mr. JENNER. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; I imagine she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of -Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was -unusual insofar as personality is concerned? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I can think of. - -Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all -I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was -just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for -a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, -and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him -a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she -got alimony for herself. - -Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize -and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a -lot wouldn't know how to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course I gather from what you have said--as a matter -of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been -surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a -motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were necessarily poor people. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, -or $14 a month house rent--I forget which--and every day he would give -us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left -out of the $1, believe it or not. - -My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to -the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress -by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left -out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We -could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day? - -Mrs. MURRET. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and -spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't -have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We -had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In -the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, -were out. - -I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk -about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had -skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson -Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us -take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we -would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that -Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. -She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, -but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father -bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had -a lot of fun. - -We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our -bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children -have to do today. - -I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want -their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them -just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to -the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's -the thing to do. - -Mr. JENNER. What's the Blue Room? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it a place of entertainment? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling -and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and -all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all -the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to. - -They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people -around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to -relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like -that either. - -Mr. JENNER. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 -years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened -during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true -or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to -lie about anything. - -Mr. JENNER. You never have? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things -didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a -tendency to exaggerate or overstate something? - -Mrs. MURRET. I would say, when you put it that way--I would say if she -expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do -that, well, then that was the wrong thing. - -Mr. JENNER. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, -or show any emotional trait at all? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared -excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt -that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you -didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain -to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her -if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who -was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or -anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason -with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be -right all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to -get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just -as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything -that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like -that. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe -it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no -control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times -things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see -eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You -couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, -then you were just wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it? - -Mrs. MURRET. She was very independent, in other words. She was very -independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't -think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how -much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was -actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of -times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one -little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would -have these little differences. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when -she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you -could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans -again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if -accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would -go ahead and give her help again. - -Mr. JENNER. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle -sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these -incidents would arise? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were -the older sister and really head of the family? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't -act that way? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her -marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something -my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always -believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did -that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I -had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing. - -Mr. JENNER. She questioned that? - -Mrs. MURRET. With me, yes; I mean, about the children. - -Mr. JENNER. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it -was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your -children? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember -this incident that happened if you want me to tell it. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell me about it. - -Mrs. MURRET. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was -just married October 5. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what year? - -Mrs. MURRET. This year, 1963--this past year. - -Mr. JENNER. Your son John? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; well, she was over at the house---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about now? - -Mrs. MURRET. Marguerite - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what -happened? - -Mrs. MURRET. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a -young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, -so Marguerite was over at the house at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about your house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and -it was a rainy day, and John and this girl friend--we were all in -the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one -another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that -they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and -he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, -"Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each -other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note -telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back -to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big -bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they -were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe -John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I -said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall -that was. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that just this last fall, in October? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't -seen--this was quite a while previous to that--maybe 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that -time, or after. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected. - -Mrs. MURRET. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now. - -Mr. JENNER. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to -Russia right after that. - -Mrs. MURRET. I just can't remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on -my route. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector? - -Mrs. MURRET. For Metropolitan; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He collected insurance premiums? - -Mrs. MURRET. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that weekly or monthly, or what? - -Mrs. MURRET. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and -so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good -insurance man, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. He was an energetic man? - -Mrs. MURRET. He was. - -Mr. JENNER. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he -collected in my area. - -Mr. JENNER. He was already divorced from his wife? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he had any children of that marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and -Marguerite became acquainted? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry -her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic--I'm not too sure of that--and -Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally. - -Mr. JENNER. He had to leave the church? - -Mrs. MURRET. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the -Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He -could go to mass. - -Mr. JENNER. He happened to be Catholic? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you Catholic? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go -ahead. - -Mrs. MURRET. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and -Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of -religion. You are Catholic. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you always been Catholic? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father -was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the -Lutheran religion. - -Mr. JENNER. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that -we went to Sunday school. - -Mr. JENNER. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday -school, to the Lutheran church? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. -I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us -children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and -he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then. - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so -he continued that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. John Pic--rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About -the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything -she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then -after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section -then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing -section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite -a school, and it was a very nice place. - -Mr. JENNER. What's the name of the school? - -Mrs. MURRET. William T. Frantz, they call it. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Frantz? - -Mrs. MURRET. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is. - -Mr. JENNER. There were two children born of that marriage; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born -after his father died. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on -October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister -wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, -and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't -want to change his name. - -Mr. JENNER. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony -terminated, did it? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think so, but John still received his. - -Mr. JENNER. The child support continued? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started -to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There -was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in -there--he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young -woman was in the store---- - -Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are -you referring to John Pic? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was -working in the store--you see, Marguerite didn't have any children -then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young -woman said to John--he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute -little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward -Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear -it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the -colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that -happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, -and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her -mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, -and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked -him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By -any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had -married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that -he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled--an -aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read -everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. -My sister did tell me the story about that. - -Mr. JENNER. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. The Oswald marriage? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go -over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and -naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, -and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would -drop by, but we didn't visit too often. - -Mr. JENNER. They had a car and they had a home? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their -own home on Alvar Street? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and -during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, -and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, -and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the -right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it -seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come -out, he just toppled over. - -Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had -insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever -it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been -safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no -insurance on the house, or whatever it was. - -Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a -baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she -bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember -where, and then she sold that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. -When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did -your sister return to work? - -Mrs. MURRET. Not right away. - -Mr. JENNER. Not right away? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned -to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, -but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an -insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return -to work after a period of about 3 years? - -Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee -after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took -care of Lee when he was that age. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that. - -Mrs. MURRET. When Lee was a very small child? - -Mr. JENNER. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that -3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take -care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was--I don't know how that came -along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and -her husband--I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, -but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so -forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how -they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee -for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at -an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was -smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than -some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very -friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I -would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really -looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in -town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so -forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I -could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert -are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so--in other words, -I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, -from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, -grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and -I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's -why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his -nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's -kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have -everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived -in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would -still get out. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by a basement house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has -a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, -which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you -at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. She had gone back to work; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What sort of work did she do? - -Mrs. MURRET. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of -the stores in town. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a -home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. -I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so -she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so -forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put -them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who -have one parent. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be -back here at 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED - -The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained -the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and -did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, -and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did -you have him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married -Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time. - -Mr. JENNER. That was 1948; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little -before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really -didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient -myself. - -Mr. JENNER. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when -that was? - -Mrs. MURRET. When she married Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. JENNER. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home. - -Mrs. MURRET. That I had what? - -Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, when he was about 3 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been about 1942; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite -married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken -him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I -don't recall exactly how that was now. - -Mr. JENNER. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have -been 9 years old; isn't that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; -not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time. - -Mr. JENNER. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home -on that occasion? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere -in there? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old? - -Mrs. MURRET. About 3; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When he came with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How old was he when he left? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left -me. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he -was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem -orphanage? - -Mrs. MURRET. He did. He was out there for a while. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he come from your home to the orphanage? - -Mrs. MURRET. I really don't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he -was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, the incident could have been--I don't know if it was -that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any -more, or something like that; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have any clear recollection on that score? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about -5 years old? - -Mrs. MURRET. About; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When he left your home? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem -orphanage home with his two brothers, do you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the boys out there at any time? - -Mrs. MURRET. I visited out there with Marguerite. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was on what; a weekend? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, -and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an -old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. -The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. -In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles -on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that -neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed -to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out -and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang -for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or -anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think -they would keep those boys there free. - -Mr. JENNER. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. What was that? - -Mr. JENNER. She was working? - -Mrs. MURRET. She was working; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In some department store or something like that here in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the -time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have -been one of these Jean's--what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over -there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the -time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know -what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married -Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald--that is, the -father of Lee Harvey Oswald--before they were married? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so -I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew -him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she -knew him at that time or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her -husband, Edward John Pic, separated? - -Mrs. MURRET. I doubt it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the -separation and before the divorce? - -Mrs. MURRET. That must have been it. She must have known him during -that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you -will. What kind of man was he? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, -I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was energetic? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, -one of their top salesmen. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was an outgoing person, you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. He seemed to be. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you call him an extrovert? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I -can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but -he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be -getting along all right, so far as I could tell. - -Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, -did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children -myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. -Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we -didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; -in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we -didn't do much visiting. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz." - -Mr. JENNER. That's his nickname? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that D-u-t-z? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, -because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, -and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by -the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone -book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he still use that name? - -Mrs. MURRET. He does. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your telephone listed in that name? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His -uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always -knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but -that, but his family always called him Charles. - -Mr. JENNER. What business is he in? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. What is your husband's business again? - -Mrs. MURRET. He works as a clerk. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, -the father of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything -about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around -the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little -forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it -helps on the debits, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But not forward in any other respect? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean he was a gentleman? - -Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about his family? - -Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one -brother who was the godfather of Lee--little Lee Oswald, you know--and -I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Harvey? - -Mrs. MURRET. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know -about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now? - -Mrs. MURRET. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was -after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were -friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more -friendship. I don't know why. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still -existed, or was it afterward? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any -friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I -couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death -of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know -what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or were advised, that was never -repaired, was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection of that event is what? - -Mrs. MURRET. What do you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about that incident? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, -other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one -time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, -and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he -was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic -about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here -and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead -and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I -guess, to marry Ed. - -Mr. JENNER. His name was Edward Ekdahl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your best recollection that you met him once -before the marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's all I saw him; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the -marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried -man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, -and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, -I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth. - -I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You -see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the -grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't -like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with -Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with -her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she -had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a military school? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with -beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for -these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that -responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as -far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation. - -Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she -is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I -understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until -he became of school age. - -During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could -have her other two boys with her on vacation. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is Covington? - -Mrs. MURRET. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, -over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and -they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's off in that direction? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed -there with the boys in the summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they visit you once in a while? - -Mrs. MURRET. With Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this -was during the summer that she stayed at Covington. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at -Covington? - -Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't -travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and -then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that -time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you -were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington -and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, -whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know. - -The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about -that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had -bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she -had spoke something about buying a duplex. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like--this is what -she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what -she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they -went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the -upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was -outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or -lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister -introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You -are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know." - -Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating -what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know -what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and -she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over -in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything -about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the -situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. -He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the -place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him -that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that -she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, -she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much -trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and -when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever -it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other -ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his -ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true -to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. -Ekdahl---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who? - -Mrs. MURRET. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I -don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway -they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and -she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the -boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he -hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she -opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the -living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and -tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his -coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so -she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, -which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on -business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of -course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and -that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten -a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big -salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, -but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get -the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone -to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her -that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a -heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the -cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to -the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the -hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I -don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then -she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very -much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the -end of the Ekdahl affair. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning -now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem -orphanage after he left the house; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed -there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at -my house, I would say, between 1-1/2 and 2 years, and then I couldn't -keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or -something. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of dissension? - -Mrs. MURRET. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to -take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with -the other two boys in the home then. - -Mr. JENNER. She was quick tempered, would you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what I mean; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She would flare up in a moment; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take -anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not -reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you -can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where -the other party never seems to be doing anything. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation -that was warranted, is that what you mean? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I -kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we -liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own -children, and this was her life. She made her own life. - -Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make -it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether -she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but -she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances. - -Mr. JENNER. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had met him only once, I believe you said? - -Mrs. MURRET. Once; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you at the wedding? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in -Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you advised that she was about to marry him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, -sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, -and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of -the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed -to be doing O.K., you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married -in Texas? - -Mrs. MURRET. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a -divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't -know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He -had a son. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were -they not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, -that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. -She went up to see them, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. In Boston? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You think his sister influenced her a lot? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as -his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you -get from what she said to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she just said that she thought things would be -different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she -would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and -having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under -the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything -about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she -told me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume -responsibility for any of the three children; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's what she said. - -Mr. JENNER. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and -Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy. - -Mr. JENNER. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their -way? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I -can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never -done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire -circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and -she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like -something happening or something you did or said, something like that. -Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know -the other side. I only know one side. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to -1941? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember -those dates exactly, that's been so long ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect -that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. -She bought this house on Bartholomew. - -Mr. JENNER. And she lived there about a year; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long she lived there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. What street? - -Mr. JENNER. Broadway. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. 2136 Broadway? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about -the 10th of September 1942. - -Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in -Algiers? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over -there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were -over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to -Bethlehem down here in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution? - -Mrs. MURRET. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down -on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could -be. It was a very old place. - -Mr. JENNER. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am -afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married -him, which squares more with your recollection. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was -around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having -him at 8 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in -Texas was it that they moved to? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. They moved to Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your -recollection on that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean -after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't -recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I -really don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never knew she lived in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went -from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just -don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property -some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably -mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that, -and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired -listening to this merry-go-round? - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired. - -Mrs. MURRET. It would be too bad if you did. - -Mr. JENNER. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, -Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up -until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth. - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just -asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone -to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe -she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we -didn't correspond. - -Mr. JENNER. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was -living with Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys -around Christmas time, and that's about all. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or -snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. MURRET. Of Lee Harvey? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Ekdahl. - -Mrs. MURRET. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him -bring that in the morning when he comes in? - -Mrs. MURRET. The snapshot? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other -pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and -that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced -by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit -as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was -living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, -where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect -her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was -Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, -she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 -Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that -this was in the summer of 1946; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he? - -Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, -you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in -periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't -know. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that he was a research man for what -company? - -Mrs. MURRET. A sick man? - -Mr. JENNER. No; a research man. - -Mrs. MURRET. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his -salary was over $1,000 a month. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is a substantial amount of money; right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 -better than $1,000. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. -If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very -substantial income; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial -income; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. We people? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, the Murret family. - -Mrs. MURRET. My family? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had -that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. -Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to -educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how -tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have -that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and -who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all -the time. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still -studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that -everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he -went to St. Louis U. - -Mr. JENNER. St. Louis? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a -scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for -about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept -after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went -to Loyola. - -Mr. JENNER. Loyola of Chicago? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; Loyola of New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. MURRET. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him -play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball -player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. -Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get -anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit. - -Mr. JENNER. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis -Cardinals farm teams; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball -and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the -boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he -was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some -kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co. - -Mr. JENNER. He works for the Swift Co. now? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. How nice. - -Mrs. MURRET. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with -the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his -travels in connection with his business? - -Mrs. MURRET. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your information, that she had her boys at -Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband -Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, -because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of -these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there -with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I -even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that during that summer vacation period? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she told you then that they were in Covington? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; she had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Covington very far away? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How far away is it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was -getting along with her husband? - -Mrs. MURRET. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation -over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would -just stay there while he went to school. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in -Covington, La.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she do that? - -Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The -next I heard is when she left Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. When she left Ekdahl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and -she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put -them in military school in Mississippi; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At her own expense? - -Mrs. MURRET. So she said. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he at that time around 5 years old? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or maybe a little older? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in -his travels; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but -that she had to support him; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support -Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But it was your impression that he was previously married -and had a son; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad -heart? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very -bad heart, I believe she said. - -Mr. JENNER. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she -approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And they did marry? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. No children were born of that marriage? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was married to him very long. - -Mr. JENNER. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know about the date on that. - -Mr. JENNER. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was -not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went -on. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have already told us about that. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce. - -Mr. JENNER. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at -the time she married Ekdahl? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and -moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was -a very low-priced residence. - -Mr. JENNER. At 1010 Bartholomew? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else -about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying -property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but -things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way -you would like them to work out. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time? - -Mrs. MURRET. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she -was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was before the assassination? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She said then that she was selling insurance? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very -long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so -forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but -during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from -the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to -stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching -school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would -call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they -were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go -out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; -that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her -nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about -that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of -clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of -things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, -$5, $10, or whatever it was. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963? - -Mrs. MURRET. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the -Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out -of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a -hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, -that was over the telephone, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a telephone conversation you had with her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959. - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited -here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me -what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they -let him out of the service, right after that, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; in September of 1959. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in -this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and -then he said, "Well, this is not for me." - -Mr. JENNER. Who said that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had -saved over $1,000 or $1,400--I don't know the amount--but after he got -home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm -leaving." - -Mr. JENNER. Lee said that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; -so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she -thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a -runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he -might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, -but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at -the house. If he did, I didn't know it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he call you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was -waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the -house, you know, this might not have happened. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by -or called? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or -maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you would have tried, anyhow. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that -afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, -you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had -seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone -with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush -man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more -about Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After -the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could -have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. -Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and -things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have -happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, -then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, -and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All living in in their home in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way -she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the -house after school, and things like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the -house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run -home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said -she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the -house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to -have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't -get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it -safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, -but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the -habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got -like that; he was with himself so much. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to -time? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of -this period, didn't you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, -I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think -Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support -the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from -high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some -little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the -family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together -to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was -crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that -he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he -did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her -being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the -details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. -He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. The same as Lee Harvey? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. -Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told -me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between -Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know -anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and -she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and -she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here. - -Mr. JENNER. Hosiery? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go -to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to -school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and -they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she -had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he -told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could -with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must -have been on the way back--I didn't even know she had went to New York, -but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to -stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up -for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was -getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after -she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it -was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a -while. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get -back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl -died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after -Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went -to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as -to when she went to New York? - -Mrs. MURRET. 1952? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was living here--let's see---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New -York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of -1952? - -Mrs. MURRET. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I -might remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar -to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know that one. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an -address where they lived in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was -the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party -that bought it. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she -always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the -rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on -the deal. - -Mr. JENNER. She reported that to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's -the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she -spoke about. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. - -Mr. JENNER. Patricia Aarons? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her. - -Mr. JENNER. Herman Conway? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Thomas W. Turner? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of him. - -Mr. JENNER. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was -supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; -is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. What? - -Mr. JENNER. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. She got some assistance from her sons, did she? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she -had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was -in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed -anything--John, but I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that about that time she was -becoming increasingly despondent with life? - -Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, -she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations. - -Mr. JENNER. She adjusted easily? - -Mrs. MURRET. She knew she had to do something about these things; that -she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things -that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was -hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support -three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them. - -Mr. JENNER. What makes you say that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I -mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or -not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had -been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run -out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because -her children didn't help her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, -she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little -friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about -that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides -to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells -you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect -for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard -time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little -demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper -respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I -would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's -nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them -that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, -and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that -she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, -but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was -so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell -me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like -that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, -but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think -that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she -was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or -called me--I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would -help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by -train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas? - -Mrs. MURRET. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee -did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he -said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to -anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to -strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by -himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while. - -Mr. JENNER. For how long? - -Mrs. MURRET. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her -feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we -tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get -out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just -rather stay in the house and read or something. - -Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though -I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She -was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and -things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out -before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the -back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks -and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other -children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, -so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go -right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically -pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to -stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, -but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his -way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do -about it. - -We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so -finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to -be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. -Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It -was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone -in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other -children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down -and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Because I saw the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw the letter before it was mailed? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at -your home, did he? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody -around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out -for him. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off -in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in your home at 757 French Street? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French -Street. - -Mr. JENNER. How was that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the -numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it -to the 700 block. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was -looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, -and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before -Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right -over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert -left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I would say about a week. - -Mr. JENNER. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Lee doing during that time? - -Mrs. MURRET. He was going to school. - -Mr. JENNER. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home -and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard -Junior High. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in January 1954? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth -or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New -Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street. - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that -from this lady who was a friend of hers. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that Myrtle Evans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania, -didn't she? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different -places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was -at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. -Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February -1955. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle -Evans was managing that apartment where she lived. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 -Exchange Place in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that 1954 or 1955? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the -right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring -of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a -very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family -home--Myrtle--and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments -for tenants. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did they stay at your house? - -Mrs. MURRET. At my house? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, -somewhere in there. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your -house into this place on Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know -which, to be truthful with you. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of -weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him -from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been -about 3 years older; isn't that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, -and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she -enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my -home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after -you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and -she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, -that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at -the school. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are -referring to now with relation to that school. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know -anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, -or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him -"Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into -the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't -know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they -sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he -could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get -a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, -like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end -of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of -course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of -that. He didn't say anything to me about that. - -Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there -were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, -"Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and -ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the -school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill -myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to -have started any of that at that time. - -Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low -standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children -went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad -bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights -and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, -so he got in several scrapes like that. - -Mr. JENNER. These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I -observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I -think. - -Mr. JENNER. Your children were all entered in school, were they? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did they study pretty hard? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well -in school, or what was your feeling along that line? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the -time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to -have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and -when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning -of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything -wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, -because I have had children of my own going to school and they always -done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school, -but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school. - -Mr. JENNER. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever -discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about -the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was -working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get -him out. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that -time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at -your place? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and -he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all -that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work -for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to -building, delivering messages and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in 1955, would that be about right? - -Mrs. MURRET. When he was here; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they -were living in Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he -liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a -Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always -cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he -would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to -rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the -greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in -City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go -up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would -have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him -more money so that he could keep his bike another hour. - -Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who -lives in Beaumont---- - -Mr. JENNER. Beaumont, Tex.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I -can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store -and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he -would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, -and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing -this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and -another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the -other children." So that was that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he wear this clothing to school? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing -this clothing for him? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very -independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about -something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and -that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so -independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need -somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that -independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because -you do need somebody, sometime you will." - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that a little of this independence might have -rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your -sister? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't -think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from -her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and -if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do -sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did -things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for -anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was -receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy -about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in -words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as -relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Oswald family, do you mean? - -Mrs. MURRET. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were -the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took -care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she -gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my -own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John -was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John -Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along -with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to -do all I could to help her. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it -before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see his handwriting often? - -Mrs. MURRET. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School, -with his homework. - -Mr. JENNER. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540 -before you, do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mrs. MURRET. Wait till I get my glasses. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; take your time. - -Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like, -something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I -couldn't say for sure--I couldn't swear that that was his writing. - -Mr. JENNER. You couldn't swear that he wrote this? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I -knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for -his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't -write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. -You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he -don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret. -Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the -bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic -copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his -hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police, -or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he -stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, -but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when -he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he -was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to -lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the -customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that, -and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. After he defected to Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be -stationed over there, you can come over weekends." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say he was going to be stationed there? - -Mrs. MURRET. At Keesler Field? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he was going to be. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he -never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never -heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is -that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all. -I didn't know he went until after he went. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you -that he was in Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had -this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that was before he defected; right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of -the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he -didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her -$10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans, -so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by -him from letter that he was in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. So she told you that; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. She told me; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in -the New Orleans papers? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth, -over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it. - -Mr. JENNER. There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. There might have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, at least it didn't come to your attention? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they had anything here about that at all, -but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; she came down here. - -Mr. JENNER. To New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And she told you all about it? - -Mrs. MURRET. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She -didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like -that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, -I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she -had brought him up in? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern -that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one -person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, -but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what -really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running -through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how -she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the -things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean -that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running -through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you -don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't -satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how -it was over there, I guess; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with him about it? - -Mrs. MURRET. After he came back? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once -in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he -was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working -there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; -no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't -even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to -the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he -didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well, -Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we -had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from -Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when -you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it -for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he -got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed -that with us as to why that was, and we never found out. - -Mr. JENNER. He never discussed that with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did -actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was -the type of boy who was too good an athlete. - -Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that -sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they -didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I -guess he just left. I don't know that though. - -Mr. JENNER. You think that's what happened to Lee, do you? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't -know though. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a competitive person? - -Mrs. MURRET. Was he what? - -Mr. JENNER. Was he competitive? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only -remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to -learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't -learning anything, and it was just a waste of time. - -I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of -time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because -you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him, -"You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of -yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's -one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about. -She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything. - -Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but -he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to -school, that he knew all the subjects. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your children discuss Lee in your presence? - -Mrs. MURRET. Did they discuss Lee? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. What did your children think of Lee? - -Mrs. MURRET. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted -like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I -didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen -to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the -same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, -because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a -lot, though. They have always loved him. - -Mr. JENNER. Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was that in the fall of 1956? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't -know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they -left. - -Mr. JENNER. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that -they were about to move to Texas? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came -in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to -stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said -New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so -I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In -fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had -a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that -we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already -packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the -way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your -machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the -place was locked up, and we never did get it back. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a portable electric sewing machine? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come -and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something -like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I -said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get -the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I -think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her -clothing or not; but she left. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was this she called you from, do you know? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Exchange? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go right over there to get the machine? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked -up. - -Mr. JENNER. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after -Robert got out of the service? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live -here and work and help support the family. - -Mr. JENNER. But he didn't like New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and -he wanted to move over there. - -Mr. JENNER. He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not -New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And so they moved to Texas? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and shortly after that--I forget when--but Robert -married, and I didn't even know he was married. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of boy was Robert? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away, -I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well -either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one -another as brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mrs. MURRET. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from -real small children, you would think that they would love one another -as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would -accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being -halfbrothers or stepbrothers. - -Mr. JENNER. Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that -your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic -name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him, -contributed to that feeling between the two boys? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she -married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I -don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, -that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father, -and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father -contribute to him." - -Mr. JENNER. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were -under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in -the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his -brother; isn't that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't -too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much -as he did Robert. That's just what I think. - -Mr. JENNER. How did John and Robert get along? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at -that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were -little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I -had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were -saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any -girls in this family." - -Mr. JENNER. Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; but they did say, "It had better not be a girl." - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the -Marines? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not until he came in that Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on -a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already touched on some information -regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you -about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because -we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the -telephone book over there and found her number. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your son-in-law's name? - -Mrs. MURRET. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said -that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I -think, or her brother--I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a -box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and -then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as -I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this -hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home. - -It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he -only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it -was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, -and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to -New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that -maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that -she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he contact you at all? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until -the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I -think, from Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. She called you and told you about that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he -didn't write you, did he? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from him; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was -going to be stationed at Keesler Field. - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in -the Marines? - -Mrs. MURRET. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up -and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you -think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big -Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom -House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might -like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in -New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think -he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't -know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the -induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother -would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited -and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to -join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you -will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign -for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told -her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around -for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign -an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that -he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office -with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office--he has expired since -then--and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with -him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him -go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then -the next step was that when he got over to the place--I don't know -whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his -suitcase--but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign -up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't -admit him on the affidavit? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he -said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of -the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there -and converse with him about different things in the service and so -forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything -like that, though. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't -seem to have worked much after school. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he -did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your boys work after school when they did go to school? - -Mrs. MURRET. My boys? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. My boys--let's see. They always went to school, and during -vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what I mean. - -Mrs. MURRET. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900 -worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed -him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to -school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass -out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He -used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given -a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he -helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last -year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and -she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her -way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in -order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had -to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't -learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think -his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because -she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said -he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, -and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, -and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends -because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he -liked to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do? - -Mrs. MURRET. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to -do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out -on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those -things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk -around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you -very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not -even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's -what he liked. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I -asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so -forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But -I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl -all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I -think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in -the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't -stay in there too long, I don't think. - -Mr. JENNER. He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. There could be. - -Mr. JENNER. Or the Hotel Liberty? - -Mrs. MURRET. There might be; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite -had on Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there. - -Mr. JENNER. On Exchange Alley? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of -people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and -everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she -had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you -know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you -know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how -nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like -to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and -because of that reason rents are pretty high. - -Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom, -and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a -very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom, -and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the -apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and -everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the -block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in -that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live -that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she -told me. - -Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but -I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never -was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go -out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in -and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school -at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and -things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His -character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There -was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some -people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or -something like that, but of course you can't please everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him when he was in Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. One time I heard--it was a postcard, and I think it was -the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard, -and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write -to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted -to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and -I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did -write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene---- - -Mr. JENNER. That's your son Gene? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign -stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took -that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the -children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more. - -When I wrote to Lee--I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you -know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up -and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point. - -Mr. JENNER. You did write a card, but your children tore it up? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member -of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I -never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you -saw him, when next did you hear about him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had -defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and -then they went back to Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean Marguerite? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were over here after that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she live in New Orleans for a while then? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. She just came for a visit? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she stay with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. She stayed with me; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had discussions during that time about his going to -Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, not too much. - -Mr. JENNER. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your -impression? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried -to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to -her over the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean she tried to reach him by telephone? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was -the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. -He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but -that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her -after she left here. She said she was going to get lost. - -Mr. JENNER. She said that to you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more -until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee -said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not -thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said, -"Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he -said, "Yes." - -I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you -doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," -and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married, -and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he -said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here -trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said, -"Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because -if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements -maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said, -"Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out." - -Mr. JENNER. This was in May or April 1963; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Just about a year ago? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it -was. - -Mrs. MURRET. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week -after Easter. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be -coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly -dressed. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed? - -Mrs. MURRET. He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of -pants. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have a suit coat on? - -Mrs. MURRET. A suit coat? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anybody other than you home? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He -could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the -bus station. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take -you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your -recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at -your house. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he -said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he -came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only -carrying just a little handbag, they call it. - -Mr. JENNER. What color was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Possibly it was brown. - -Mr. JENNER. Brown? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of material was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. What the handbag was made of? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. I think it was just cloth. - -Mr. JENNER. A cloth bag? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have it in just one hand? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. It wasn't too large, then? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; it was small. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness indicates about 14 inches. - -Mrs. MURRET. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put -their clothes in, something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of -that? - -Mrs. MURRET. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things -over at the bus station. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. MURRET. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? - -Mrs. MURRET. How do I know that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station -and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he -did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until -he found an apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That evening? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In your automobile? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other -packages; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you home when they came back from the bus station? - -Mrs. MURRET. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, -if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the -garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see anything in the garage eventually? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary -cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in -anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it. - -Mr. JENNER. Over the duffelbag? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there? - -Mrs. MURRET. Quite a few, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. More than two duffelbags? - -Mrs. MURRET. I could be wrong, but I think there were more. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and -that there could have been more than two? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby -clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the -world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but -he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus -station though. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long packages with him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long -packages? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. - -Mr. JENNER. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes -that a person would pack things in? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long flat package with him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan -wrapping paper? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of -things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in -such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing -machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged -any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of -my business. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all? - -Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any like that; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and -hard? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There -were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do -know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled -out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these -leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything -like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear -in cold weather. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer -and sickle or anything like that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that -Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't -look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were -all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said -no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He -said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and -pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him. - -Mr. JENNER. You say he had no suit coat? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him -a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get them out? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put -up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, -he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and -the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to -describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American -housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any -other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper -so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so -every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for -a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he -wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper -anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for -supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down -about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then -he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the -house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we -were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything -about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I -don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one -time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know -them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." -He said, "You are the only one I know." - -Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday. -Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to -the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of -the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he -went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, -and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't -get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the -family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, -Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know -where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone -to letter. - -Mr. JENNER. To letter? - -Mrs. MURRET. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and -the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this -job. - -First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and -tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't -letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I -didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get -the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know -how to do that." - -So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and -he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds -in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right -Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the -wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always -carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a -certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always -take this map and mark the route out himself. - -So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the -brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was -dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave -him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was -a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever -went back to see her. - -So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, -and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the -Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and -he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, -and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!" - -Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he -said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, -but I will get along on it." - -I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do -anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to -go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or -whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I -don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know -everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. -I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was -smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along -these lines that he really believed he was that smart? - -Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't -think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't -think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I -guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We -didn't even know when he left this job. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, -did he read while he was home at night? - -Mrs. MURRET. Did he read? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books? - -Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave -early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to -fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want -anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always -eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He -would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, -and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while -and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same -pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley -Coffee Co. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his -life in Russia, and how he felt about it? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He -said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they -all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay -overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with -clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was -over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did -work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but -then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work -there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in -Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the -equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were -not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. -We didn't talk about it too much. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley -Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said -you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only -talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever -tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked -him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He -never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say -was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all -he would say. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian -government? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things -were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch -a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that -he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife -and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department -loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and -he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer -in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he -worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much -money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they -didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on -the job. - -Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this -photographer? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either -Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job -all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a -third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he -came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he -would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that -time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he -called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and -everything, because they got here so quick. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man -speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over -in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he -didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got -the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and -look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very -first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," -and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me -about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was -going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would -like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine -wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I -wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in -mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, -"If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because -it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's -what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I -said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a -while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----" - -Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to -the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she -didn't recognize Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked -Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment -for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, -"Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and -I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said -to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am -Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have -recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she -told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she -knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of -course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card -party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that -time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee -that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, -"Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle -says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and -then she decided to help him find an apartment. - -She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices -are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will -just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got -in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on -a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired -about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was -very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly -wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a -bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and -kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to -Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee -said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't -like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get -this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take -it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, -after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming -in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia? - -Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the -impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to -come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with -a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that -Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle -had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite -satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over -there, he didn't like it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans -after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he -got that apartment possibly on a Thursday. - -Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he -moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he -moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and -Monday was the ninth. - -Mrs. MURRET. Of May? - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. -The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, -the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that -Saturday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, -and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that -time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to -the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that? - -Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your -garage? - -Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he -had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought -that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the -garage? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when -he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all -anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the -apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he -loaded the car. - -Mr. JENNER. Your car? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He -had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that -first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, -and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something -else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No -woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your -husband? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee -up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it -was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after -they got everything out of the car, we just left. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing -them into the apartment? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, -and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage? - -Mrs. MURRET. Luggage? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because -he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just -had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of -socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the -garage; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the -garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two -suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather -than square? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches -long, or something like that. - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I -noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the -garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those -suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and -there were boxes, a bunch of stuff. - -Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know? - -Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three? - -Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't -know. - -Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown -butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, -when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting? - -Mrs. MURRET. My boys? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little -duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your -house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. -It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, -if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, -almost shot his hand off. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong -package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in -there? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look -like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock -looked like, and so forth? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina -and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about -that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the -apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back -later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and -buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, -don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that -in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the -house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and -they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two -children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready -to go out. - -Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter? - -Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an -appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I -forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and -the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the -kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime? - -Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee -said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready -to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't -know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's -the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with -him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her -car. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did -you see Mrs. Paine any more? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more. - -Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to -come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband -to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one -Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came -over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to -come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, -because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty -long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of -Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it -must be 50 blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their -house? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we -didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and -everything that belonged to the baby with them. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the -baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw -anyone before in her life. - -Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have -grandchildren? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this -baby? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she -didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things -in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends -with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look -at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee -decided that they would go out. - -I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my -daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to -go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside? - -Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks -from where I live. - -Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half? - -Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got -a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee -left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake. - -Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there? - -Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them. - -Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, -operating an automobile? - -Mrs. MURRET. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an -automobile, though? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New -York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I -never knew him to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, -and they went crabbing; is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way -back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, -"Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like -a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come -from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. -They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him -that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending -$1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the -French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't -see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any -crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed -the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it -was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some -crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back -home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so -forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the -baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove -them home, and that was it. - -When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come -over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get -them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I -don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he -must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me. - -Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that? - -Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need -another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be -the only excuse he gave for losing a job. - -Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked -me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out -looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every -afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the -message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service. - -Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that State? - -Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead. - -Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from -Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of -those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State -employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, -so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't -think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after -that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom. - -Mr. JENNER. A what? - -Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went -down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, -and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to -drive. - -Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job. - -Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would -have to drive a truck. - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found -any other job after that here. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee -plant? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this -job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or -maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at -the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you -need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I -thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead -and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the -type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited -to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because -it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but -he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part -of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a -week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't -want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if -there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would -said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a -spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was -that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says -we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must -have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I -mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went -home with the spread after all. - -Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had -called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private -agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and -I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but -I wouldn't remember that now. - -Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going -on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went -to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14. - -Mr. JENNER. To visit your son? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time? - -Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in -between that time. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job? - -Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you -recall? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to -me about that. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for -a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children. - -Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she -adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they -were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't -seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came -over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had -come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock -that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and -not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would -understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted -to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the -recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to -pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, -and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, -but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain -things. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about -the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina -like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," -so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I -like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did -think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned -to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and -we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't -you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in -August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that -time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. -They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see -me, which I thought was very nice. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and -throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All -right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to -be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he -went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That -was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following -Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted -to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he -missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, -"Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there -are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be -all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, -and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children -of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce -was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee -called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, -and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, -the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring -some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." -She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each -time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I -said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" -and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she -asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She -was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man -told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because -she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your -cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole -him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans -a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her -the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El -Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I -am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't -know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he -was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like -that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and -everything." - -This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry -these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent -yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But -you can't carry signs like that in the business district." - -The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce -thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. -She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when -we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, -and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted -to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the -money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she -had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, -and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there." - -Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You -see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, -so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I -don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you -have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get -me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this -thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he -said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go -out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and -you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce -said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep -my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of -the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me -what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like -to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said -she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we -decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told -us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and -everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in -jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and -said that everything was all right, that Lee was out. - -Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret -came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe -it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He -went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee -in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected -with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee -said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you -show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, -I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find -yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so -forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe -it was. - -Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come -over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but -suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because -I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came -on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked -them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had -had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them -I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some -coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate -the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten -anything, because they ate up all the rolls. - -I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. -John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take -them home, and John brought them home. - -Mr. JENNER. In his car? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite -a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English -language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad -that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the -time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't -know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the -English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you -right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't -care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." -He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose -my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English -language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her. - -I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do -you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right -then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that -question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John -brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove -them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married -in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home -where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her -house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed -them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them -any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, -postcard, or otherwise? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, -two men came to the house from the FBI. - -Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few -days after Labor Day, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and -I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, -but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" -and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple -ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and -I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know -where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of -Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," -and then they told me who they were. - -Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me -that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a -lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the -same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to -Texas." - -Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. -I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over -something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. -Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was -going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't -say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or -anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through -here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane -professor. - -Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a -language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he -had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they -either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't -get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I -understand it. - -Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides? - -Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew -the professor and all that. - -Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow? - -Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over -there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. In Moscow? - -Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from -Lee Oswald and Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out? - -Mrs. MURRET. What's that? - -Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile. - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around -there? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son -Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and -he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had -graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there -for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany -and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to -law school. - -Mr. JENNER. At Loyola? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit. - -Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when -I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very -much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and -bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up -to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was -with us, and also her two children. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left -there about 2 o'clock, I think it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a -lecture or anything to the boys there at that school? - -Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret? - -Mrs. MURRET. What school is that? - -Mr. JENNER. At Mobile? - -Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study. - -Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina -over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so -many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences -in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over -there about his speaking, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia -is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't -think. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was. - -Mr. JENNER. By letter? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we -would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or -anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important -and he gets permission? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home. - -Mr. JENNER. But he may write you? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go -up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things -like that. We are allowed to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us. - -Mr. JENNER. Why is that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they -mind if you call him? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays -or something we can do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over -there? - -Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just -what happened? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in -the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and -I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so -uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the -flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't -want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from -anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and -that night we were going to meet. - -Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband? - -Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce. - -Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And her two children? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill. - -Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all -the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. -Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real -nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself -all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very -attentive too to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Always? - -Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around -her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very -attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car -door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out -for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say -that for him. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along -very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. -They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and -some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang -out of doing things like that. - -Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we -could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment -before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She -said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at -Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told -him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your -presence? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this -stuff was stored? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it -might contain a rifle? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there. - -Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun -at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that -stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these -boots and this hat. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night? - -Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back -the next afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that -your understanding? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time -they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got -a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene -told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he -spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice -conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, -and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what -he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I -don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked -for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I -asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right." - -Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to -talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map -out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, -so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I -give talks all the time." - -Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, -"I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she -would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, -she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in -Russian, so I don't know what they were saying. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much." - -Mr. JENNER. Marina said that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; -we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would -become a Catholic." - -Mr. JENNER. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she -not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, -about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the -baby to be baptized. - -Mr. JENNER. Who didn't? - -Mrs. MURRET. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the -orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the -Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the -Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's -something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church. - -Mr. JENNER. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the -baby been baptized before that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know -which. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between -Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, -like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give -me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, -"Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he -really meant that the way it sounded. - -Mr. JENNER. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of -speech? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything -about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that Lee was arrogant? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it -depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in -the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike -him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be -arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all -depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man -who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that -he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought -he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried -himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the -time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's -mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he -couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay -any attention to that. - -Mr. JENNER. What was there about his mouth that you noticed -particularly? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different -from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like -he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the -way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time -he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him -look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused -to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, -and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or -something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid -that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have -anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will -be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. -But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot -of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard -School indicating--either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his -address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before -they changed the numbering on your street, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. -Murret? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700 -block, from Canal Boulevard---- - -Mr. JENNER. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that -Lee gave your home address as his address? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We -had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, -how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or -Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which -was your address? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from -New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and -that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't -have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't -given them my address and given some other address in another district, -he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to -Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she -said she would like to have him enrolled there. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York -with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his -conduct generally, as you recall it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, -I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the -afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper -and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He -never really did talk unless you said something to him. - -Mr. JENNER. The same old pattern, would you say? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to -talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others -just aren't. You run across that every day. - -Mr. JENNER. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or -a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some -activity of the Civil Air Patrol? - -Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about that other than my sister -Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and -that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have -a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were -living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange--whatever that is, at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Exchange Place? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and -tie on one occasion? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was -in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think -Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such -a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, -here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a -nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good -when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and -the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his -picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that -same shirt and tie on. - -Mr. JENNER. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had -given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to -John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt -sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good -that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, -"Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," -and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, -but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know -how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know -how to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe you said during the course of this discussion -that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate -with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his -left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he -did use his left hand as a child. I remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They eat with either hand, don't they? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have -started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they -grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who -never use their right hand, I don't think. - -Mr. JENNER. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy -though, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee write left handed? - -Mrs. MURRET. When? - -Mr. JENNER. After he reached, say, high school age? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You never noticed it one way or the other? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they -came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never noticed really. - -Mr. JENNER. Your boys are all right handed, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go -out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of -your boys, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it -belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and -the Cuban boy? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he called. - -Mr. JENNER. Who, Lee? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the -radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to -come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but -then we turned it on and did hear some of it. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard some of it? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political -views? - -Mrs. MURRET. Not in my home. - -Mr. JENNER. And not with you? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family. - -Mrs. JENNER. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity -was concerned, his coordination? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he -wasn't prepared to do anything in life. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an -automobile? Did your son talk to you about that? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what -John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too -long, and then they came back. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around. - -Mr. JENNER. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he -say anything either way as to that? - -Mrs. MURRET. You mean on that day? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, he couldn't drive? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear -with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, -and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, -Beaumont, Tex., is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has -an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, -and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and -who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that? - -Mrs. MURRET. Society of Jesus. - -Mr. JENNER. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And a fine student? - -Mrs. MURRET. He certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is unmarried? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit. - -Mr. JENNER. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that -right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. She's unmarried? - -Mrs. MURRET. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get -married. - -Mr. JENNER. She doesn't want to get married? - -Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles -didn't see Lee at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Charles is your dentist son? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have -told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce--they did, is that right? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And of course your husband? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. -Murret? - -Mrs. MURRET. Just that morning when we went there. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and -Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. MURRET. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or -Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy? - -Mrs. MURRET. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy -was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with -her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or -never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him. - -Mr. JENNER. Liked President Kennedy? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for -example? - -Mrs. MURRET. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I -read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes -there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of -Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said -she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given -her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see -nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to -smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My -boys don't smoke. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house -around here? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian -literature that you know of? - -Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina -and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but -that's about all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack -Ruby, or Rubenstein? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. No one else ever discussed him in your presence? - -Mrs. MURRET. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the -end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought -out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, -anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission -in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving -the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't -think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to -Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the -hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell -you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will -say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with -a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was -doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether -it was or not is something else, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald -during his lifetime? - -Mrs. MURRET. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what -baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he -could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way. - -Mr. JENNER. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits -of temper, that you thought were unusual? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things -that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think -he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so -quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless -you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. -Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always -treated her like a gentleman at our house. - -Mr. JENNER. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person? - -Mrs. MURRET. No; not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. -This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. -There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege -of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also -may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe -the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to -read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the -U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and -signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other? - -Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it. - -Mr. JENNER. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition -then? - -Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET - -The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. -Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to -take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of -Congress number 137. - -I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would -be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I -understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive -order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint -Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the -Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that -correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this -hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret -Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be -3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume -that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to -testify? - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is -to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee -Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that -you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any -knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New -Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963. - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those -questions, would you please state your full name for the record? - -Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Miss MURRET. 757 French. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret? - -Miss MURRET. New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years -in St. Louis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your -educational background? - -Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh -High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton -Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, -the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you -have mentioned? - -Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational -courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.? - -Miss MURRET. Tulane. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Miss MURRET. Fortier? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? - -Miss MURRET. Fortier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there? - -Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid -the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't -pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and -he still owes me for December. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University -of New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one -across the river. He had two, one on this side, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities? - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the -one across the river is still operating. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one---- - -Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still -operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and -started teaching at Fortier? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents? - -Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation? - -Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under -the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or -how they operate, actually. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no -business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how -that works. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is---- - -Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she -not---- - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have -other brothers and sisters? - -Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died -when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her -mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was -very young, and I don't remember him at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl? - -Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when---- - -Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any -idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have? - -Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is -that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four -girls and two boys? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two---- - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and -both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all -dead. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name? - -Miss MURRET. Mancy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name? - -Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last -name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name? - -Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a -moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other -daughter because her husband is dead. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in---- - -Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee -she goes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes -over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does -she have? - -Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters? - -Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the -other one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name? - -Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls? - -Miss MURRET. Two boys. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now? - -Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but -I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he -lives. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one? - -Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four -children? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls? - -Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living? - -Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am -not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they -live? - -Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and -Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is -just a nickname, and then Jackie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know, -either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters -live in the same State, and one in the other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have? - -Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names? - -Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She is older? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in -the city of New Orleans? Is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what? - -Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name? - -Miss MURRET. O'Brien. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and -their names were what? - -Miss MURRET. One was John. - -Mr. LIEBELER. John? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the other? - -Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know? - -Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919, -during World War I. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them? - -Miss MURRET. No; there were none. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has -three sons? - -Miss MURRET. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite -Oswald over the years? - -Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on -the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come -back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved -back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days -or so---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when? - -Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she -was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were -on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her -occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she -moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New -Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived -on Exchange Alley? - -Miss MURRET. I don't really remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange -Alley? - -Miss MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had -been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on -Exchange Alley? - -Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard -from them when she was somewhere else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when -you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley? - -Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him -occasionally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would -meet Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I -don't think he was over very much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out -of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school -when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really -know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it -wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell -us? - -Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time -that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley? - -Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very -reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. -His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests -with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, -and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I -don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you -learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park? - -Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a -fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told -me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from -the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it -was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't -see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the -streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, -when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these -boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front -teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother. - -Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if -they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned -around, they hit him. It was just actually that--even though he was -in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't -think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own -business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my -mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that -it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't -have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him -because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which -was one incident. But he was extremely quiet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various -difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to -the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, -interested in that sort of thing? - -Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told -me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, -or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and -said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, -actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she -remembered those particular incidents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this -after the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his -former---- - -Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in -common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long -time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before -also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me -that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, -and that they made fun of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students -from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station -and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when -he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent -and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might -expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that -opinion? - -Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago--but he was -very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but -he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and, -of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I -don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children -never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely -well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say -that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I -know, he never was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during -the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that -difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and -being well mannered? - -Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some -people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I -suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was -very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always -had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was -very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. -He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, -everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a -little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody -stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very -cute. - -But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about -him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was -saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, -well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of -those students, I should say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed -from his associates or fellow students at that time? - -Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because--well, I think he -wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it -could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to -play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this -is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether -my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very -appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't -do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean -he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but -I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I -guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I -mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these -former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been -involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what -station that program was on? - -Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and -photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking -the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person -my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so -everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the -other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all -that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students? - -Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he -said that he was friendly with Lee at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others? - -Miss MURRET. Any other people? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program? - -Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group -of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't -like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one -who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very -friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very -interested. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program -run by a particular reporter or commentator? - -Miss MURRET. A reporter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon? - -Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at -WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when -these people were interviewed by someone, presumably? - -Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I -believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed -information. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally? - -Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off -guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him -if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that -he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they -wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, -which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, -of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he -went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and -it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all -the comments by the neighbors. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald? - -Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed -there a few days when he came in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a -young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about -11 or 12 years old at that time? - -Miss MURRET. Just about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child -other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very -pretty child, and that he was adorable---- - -Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well, -he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling -child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems? - -Miss MURRET. No; he was darling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all? - -Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if -he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. He was -just a very pleasant child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with -you at that time? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was -born? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that -time? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores, -and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was -Jean's Hosiery Shop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after -that? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if -that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or what? - -Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an -orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to -figure out whether he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not? - -Miss MURRET. No; I am not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went -back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your -recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright -young boy? Is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the -background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years -old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. -Ekdahl; is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl? - -Miss MURRET. I met him once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with -Mr. Ekdahl? - -Miss MURRET. My circumstances? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances? - -Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and -my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to -military school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married? - -Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got -married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do -know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two -boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I -remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if -I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in -uniform. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which -Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this -relationship? - -Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that -actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, -and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, -"Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was -quite hesitant about it, actually. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, -she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage? - -Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, -that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very -difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite -saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she -got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if -she got pregnant. - -So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she -did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he -would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, -he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was -true. And he definitely did not want any children. - -So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want -her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, -so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the -other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always -threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that -when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she -left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that -was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being -like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to -him or---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your -mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to -have any children? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met -Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or -afterwards? - -Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? - -Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father? - -Miss MURRET. I saw him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like? - -Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, -and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a -young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this -time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the -next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange -Alley? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would -have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year -old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you -have when you met him again? - -Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he -was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other -children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person? - -Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just -had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like -that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, -but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong -thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the -circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into -trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way -around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, -and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen -to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other -boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying -if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out -that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would -never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified -this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange -Alley, before she went to Texas? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her? - -Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and -feeling about Marguerite Oswald was? - -Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had -a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you -have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. -But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I -mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and -she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a -few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how -they--I mean they will slit one another's throats. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't -engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments -over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no---- - -Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald -came to New Orleans, isn't that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that? - -Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after -he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, -isn't that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to -New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of -course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he -could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that -he was married, and that he had a baby. - -So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family -she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, -so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on -Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, -and they moved into the place on Magazine Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there -during that period? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there? - -Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a -week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time? - -Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was -working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing -in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to -work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really -had was on religion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week? - -Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say? - -Miss MURRET. He just listened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say? - -Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist -because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary? - -Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and -so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off -because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he -said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he -didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then -he indicated that he had his own way? - -Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this -discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that -someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject -like that, and then not really respond to it? - -Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with -you over your---- - -Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations -that you might have had? - -Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk -with him, and that was the first day that he came--I believe it was. -After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all -day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to -know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his -relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him -about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what -descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close -to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or---- - -Miss MURRET. My mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him? - -Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think -most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I -believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother -would know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's? - -Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but -they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still -living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of -his father. And then he went to visit the grave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think -he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the -bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture -of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or---- - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved -over to the apartment on Magazine Street? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and -went to the other aunt? - -Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt? - -Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture? - -Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job? - -Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. -I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find -one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you---- - -Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a -job? - -Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she -thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my -mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet -Union, did you not? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia? - -Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few -photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he -said about the family, that people were very family conscious---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience -where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who -had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do -here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but -what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was -very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he -said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and -that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place? - -Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he -left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and -I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just -before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that -she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know -where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother -didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing -in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife -told me at that time---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time? - -Miss MURRET. In Japan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan? - -Miss MURRET. I taught school over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia? - -Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring -the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's -privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I -know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over -the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. John was? - -Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was -in Stars and Stripes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why -he went? - -Miss MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia -other than what you have already told us? - -Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of -this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought -that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in -bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want -to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, -anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person -because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression -on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, -that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, -and he worked in the factory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory? - -Miss MURRET. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? - -Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the -Soviet Union? - -Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was -going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend -the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on -the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language? - -Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone -to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten? - -Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of -training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had -gotten out, in the first place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean? - -Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he -a Russian officer? Anyway---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father---- - -Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, -so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he -had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just -to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in -the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think -it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the -Intelligence Service in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get -out. So, that I couldn't figure out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the -only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time -getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until -everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had -a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her -papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't -satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. -But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy -obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, -they would be trailing him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this? - -Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, -naturally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it? - -Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was -difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to -anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could -just forget about that because he might really have realized that he -made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try -to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking -that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back -here, you would do everything you could to help him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about -getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he -distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by -the two authorities? - -Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that -he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans -gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him -anytime. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had -given him the money? Did he tell you that? - -Miss MURRET. He told my mother that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he -had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more -details, or did your mother repeat them to you? - -Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his -citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and -that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he -couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation -with Lee about it before the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. About what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and -these difficulties? - -Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother -showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the -passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to -obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from -to return to the United States? - -Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could -get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, -and an uncle--I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he -was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then -that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't -really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you -don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the -Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really -realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a -purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the -Soviet Union? - -Miss MURRET. At first; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first---- - -Miss MURRET. The first reaction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first---- - -Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, -after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him? - -Miss MURRET. After he came out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he -came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time? - -Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here? - -Miss MURRET. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all? - -Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't -even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't -know--probably a year." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody -else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a -Russian agent? - -Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, -well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you -can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the -American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the -case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was -definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly -throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it -for the reasons you state? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get -out? - -Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of -the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with -which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or -have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question -that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you -dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or -the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that -they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It did not? - -Miss MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented -an apartment and moved out? Is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment? - -Miss MURRET. He told me about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally? - -Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I -think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and -said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina -would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high -ceilings. But he liked it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time? - -Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought -her---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name? - -Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time? - -Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced -herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and -that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had -referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was -very nice to meet her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved -out, or after he moved out? - -Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came -to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they -wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I -don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went -from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then? - -Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was -petrified---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about? - -Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language -barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people -there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or -probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled -child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever -came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and -I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in -the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came -into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. -Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to -meet Marina and Mrs. Paine? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina? - -Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said -anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; -is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go? - -Miss MURRET. It was exasperating. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English? - -Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but -still there is a lot she doesn't understand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient -in the English language? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her -at all in English? - -Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat -something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and -small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when -they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than -that, she---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine? - -Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had -been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a -professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman? - -Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they -telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for -an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going -that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had -one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. -Paine's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the---- - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman? - -Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember? - -Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret -Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what? - -Miss MURRET. Languages. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some -other language. He just teaches, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived? - -Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a -daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? - -Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time -magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those -ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in -the language, and you would see people who spoke that language. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of -Mrs. Paine in any way? - -Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking -people, and she spoke Russian herself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed -this with you about the professor? - -Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that -we could use to find out who he was, or who he is? - -Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, -if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think -that that would be too difficult to find. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on -Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment? - -Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him -home once or twice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment? - -Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it? - -Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never -did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was -arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon -and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked -them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, -they took the bus, and we always took them home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that? - -Miss MURRET. On Magazine? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes? - -Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a -half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't -know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July -until September. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time -you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in -September? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What -did you do? - -Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina -wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my -mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they -were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, -so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or -4 they came over in the bus. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not? - -Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New -Orleans during July or August of 1963? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition? - -Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my -house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that? - -Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, -of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with -Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and -I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, -and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina -told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, -"Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying -that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you -spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was -all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You -spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of -your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French -Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, -you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day? - -Miss MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that -happened on that day that was worthy of any note? - -Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was? - -Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only -an hour and a half. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina? - -Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't -really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you -know, word for word. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the -first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or---- - -Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, -I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't -remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted -to---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at -your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on -this expedition? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got -along with each other? - -Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he -first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the -assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running -back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some -statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You -don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications -they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to -love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very -well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, -he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in -and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just -seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that -my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that -probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to -be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute -couple. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as -peculiar or out of the ordinary? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties -of any kind while they were here? - -Miss MURRET. Only what I read. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to -smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that? - -Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't -want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I -couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean -she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did -eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, -"Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my -mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she -didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she -had smoked before that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment -or---- - -Miss MURRET. She didn't like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment? - -Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand---- - -Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said -that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In -fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low -ceilings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one -occasion, is that correct? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished? - -Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very -nice for the money, actually. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it? - -Miss MURRET. Sixty-five. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in? - -Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't -think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. -They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all -refinished, and the walls newly painted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with -Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all? - -Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance -at all, never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy? - -Miss MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally? - -Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that -was before or if it was on that program, where he said something -complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to? - -Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was -interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the -assassination that they reran that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said -something complimentary about Kennedy on that? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of -President Kennedy? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the -Negro? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a -point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some -Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it -was just a rebellious kind of thing? - -Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars -were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother -telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, -defiantly--I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and -August of 1963, and where were you? - -Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and -Panama. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel? - -Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon? - -Miss MURRET. No; public transportation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the -assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either -planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to -Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any -connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or -subsequently? - -Miss MURRET. On this trip, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a -tourist operation? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you -learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail -during the summer? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that? - -Miss MURRET. My family. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you? - -Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba -pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get -him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and -so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not -supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they -decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, -and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if -it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see -her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left -and was distributing the pamphlets. - -So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come -and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two -children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take -care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she -said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't -there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down -to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my -mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the -station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to -tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, -not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is -not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to -get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if -they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and -he had him paroled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who -is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just -a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was -just a personal favor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this -episode when you saw him on Labor Day? - -Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile? - -Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took -him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an -hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And -whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take -his car and go by himself. - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did? - -Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and -that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able -to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think -it was in the park. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up -Marina and take her back to Texas? - -Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 -minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee -Co. sometime during the summer? - -Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back -or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he -lose it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone. - -Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, -13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New -Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost -the job and was unemployed? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that -was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you -mentioned that you were in Japan? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did -you go, and what did you do? - -Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and -went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, -Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and -straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, -Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip? - -Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher? - -Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or---- - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification -problems, or don't they have that problem in those places? - -Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching -science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 -years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. At Juno. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In school? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in -connection with it? - -Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I -was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me -that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over -back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, -where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that -they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that -time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that -was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, -and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee -because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they -thought was a foreigner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Slightly! - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised? - -Miss MURRET. Of course. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it? - -Miss MURRET. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on -your knowledge of him and your association with him? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing -like that, or capable of it, either one? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since -this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive -that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, -have you not? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything? - -Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, -and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, -because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I -don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by -killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government -just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did -it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the -eyes of the world. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal -motive that he might have had? - -Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself? - -Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human -being? - -Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way -he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee -company? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know? - -Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job? - -Miss MURRET. He said it was all right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things -or not? - -Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really -didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he -said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked -him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't -any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he -had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But -he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was -somebody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity? - -Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely -intelligent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was? - -Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never -discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not -he knew what he was talking about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very -articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much? - -Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he -pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, -and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to -answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like -that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you -had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all? - -Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I -mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could -have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I -mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me -as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? - -Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain -type of person and hated by other types. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and -it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what -you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to -frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people -respond differently to different human beings, since each person is -different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing -many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not -liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, -but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you -would just tell us really what you think about this, and why. - -Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought -that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock -him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was -very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked -petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are -varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this -(assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said -that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college -graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain -manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought -they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a -degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent -than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never -really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was -intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this -other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I -guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances -only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he -didn't like them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem? - -Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a -different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a -rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange -Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you -know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or -anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't -have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like -that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained -himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when -he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading -this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he -was reading anything on Marxism or communism? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was -trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read -a novel, and that is how he was trained. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, -both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee -Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President? - -Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck -me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I -never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world -that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, -unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't -think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else -could ever get through to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when -you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with -the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and -had some difficulty out in the street? - -Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just -thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is -just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over -Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, -that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting -his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition -that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem -inconsistent to you? - -Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out -leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you -hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in -New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came -out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; -however---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know? - -Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and -they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was -because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, -well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not -against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I -mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, -and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on -television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he -was a Marxist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based -on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you -that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets? - -Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, -after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of -course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly -after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, -that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down -by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such -a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want -him to work for them, you know---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the -assassination? - -Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the -assassination? - -Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, -so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical -one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back -on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down -at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I -don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then -being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the -other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the -kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia? - -Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured -even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such -a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, -do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so -horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that -big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, -I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an -individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist -lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just -preach the doctrine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to -whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very -much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you -believe? Do you believe he did it? - -Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been -so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person -supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had -already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more -than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any -kind when he was here in New Orleans? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle? - -Miss MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember -about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission -should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record. - -Miss MURRET. I don't know of any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times? - -Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you -were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there? - -Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, -and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother -was there, I mean, but he was talking to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only -time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with -you? - -Miss MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add -at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank -you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want -to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and -being as cooperative as you have been. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET - -The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the -Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., -by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly -sworn testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that -right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, -transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which -he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation -of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. -Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, -and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony -before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. -Did she receive those? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. You did read them? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of -the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of -making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their -lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, -with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking -into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if -possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, -1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that -connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you -know, if anything, in that regard. - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname? - -Mr. MURRET. Dutz. - -Mr. JENNER. Dutz? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that? - -Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and -it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just -stuck with me. - -Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting? - -Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a -career of it, or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you? - -Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans? - -Mr. MURRET. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family. - -Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the -way. - -Mr. MURRET. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five? - -Mr. MURRET. Five. - -Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that -right? - -Mr. MURRET. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in -Mobile, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging -over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and -to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, -and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a -priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb -Co., is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now. - -Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball -player, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls. - -Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed? - -Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, -did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball -when he was in high school; did you know that? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have. - -Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who -are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys -are right handed? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her. - -Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her? - -Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife. - -Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and -Marguerite's sister, now, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic? - -Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that -right? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very -often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore? - -Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, -but his firm is in that line of business. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding. - -Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in -that marriage? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And they separated? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we -will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is -that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did. - -Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see -them pretty often. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent -marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What business was he in? - -Mr. MURRET. The insurance business. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman? - -Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his -company. - -Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a -couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street? - -Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You do remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee -was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was -right after he died. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the -child? Did she go to work, or what? - -Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited -anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of -my business, so I didn't ask about that. - -Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, -after Mr. Oswald died? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I -think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name -of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life. - -Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about -a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by -Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in -him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay -attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I -mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from -his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the -opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the -apartment the way I understand it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right? - -Mr. MURRET. Not too well. - -Mr. JENNER. Not too well? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She -always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody -that disagreed with her, and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like -that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all -right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, -to that extent. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did they go? - -Mr. MURRET. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. To Texas? - -Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went. - -Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might -even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they -left. - -Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of -1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New -Orleans? Do you remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to -New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old? - -Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned -to New Orleans? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, -or do you know? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those -details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when -he returned? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the -second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain -way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time. - -Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New -Orleans, didn't they? - -Mr. MURRET. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that -they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans -on that occasion? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the -wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that -they were in New York; I remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that -they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley? - -Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, -and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I -don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there. - -Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, -right? - -Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost -contact with them. - -Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at -Exchange Alley, didn't they? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved -back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and -stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't -remember what month, but it was about that. - -Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for -an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would -like to stay with us until he found something. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the -kitchen. - -Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then? - -Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, -"Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of -course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, -I don't think. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is -that right? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Not a thing? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion? - -Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? -Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and -bring them to the house? - -Mr. MURRET. Did I help him? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with -any luggage, not that day. - -Mr. JENNER. The next day? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a -couple of days afterward. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of -days later, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus -station? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now? - -Mr. MURRET. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't -remember it? - -Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you -don't recall it at this time? - -Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at -that time? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or -something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that -sort of thing? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it? - -Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get -his luggage? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that. - -Mr. JENNER. And you drove? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove. - -Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge? - -Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there? - -Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did he have? - -Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes? - -Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases? - -Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was -contained? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. -I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two -duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared -at your house after all those years? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but -he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for -his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the -number is concerned, I don't know it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and -have her come over? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and -I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would -walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her. - -Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine -arrived? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided -to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I -think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and -everything? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two -children with her. - -Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come -and visit you or your family at your home? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must -have come in the daytime. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over? - -Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the -baby, and Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. How did this come about? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee -was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up -there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him. - -Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made -over to Mobile? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over? - -Mr. MURRET. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you there? - -Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over -there? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you there? - -Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were -on the grounds. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. How about Marina? - -Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in. - -Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time? - -Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he -was making. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? - -Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the -trip or the motel or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. You paid it? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or -pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be -termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of -Castro, on the mantel there. - -Mr. JENNER. On the mantel? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested. - -Mr. JENNER. Last summer? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In August it was there? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio. - -Mr. JENNER. The radio? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going -to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the -radio instead. - -Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the -program? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an -automobile? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach -him to talk American to his little child. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that? - -Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why -don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he -didn't give me an answer to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left -Russia? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his -political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of -Russia? - -Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to -Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out -the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back -here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and -these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My -main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't -disrupt anything around there. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him? - -Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked -America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and -she said, "I like America." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked -you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its -investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this -matter? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your -deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter -transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What -do you prefer to do in that respect? - -Mr. MURRET. I will waive it. - -Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your -deposition? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all -the questions I have. - -Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get -to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for -anyone, especially for his mother. - -Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that -you had contact with him? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed -to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For -example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like -that. He wanted to do it all himself. - -Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right? - -Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go -ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him -after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET - -The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the -Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a -copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have -just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the -Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing -documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically -a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to -testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. -I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to -waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be -willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with -the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning -concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New -Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of -that, however, will you state your full name for the record. - -Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom? - -Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them? - -Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them? - -Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey -Oswald's cousin? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. -and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he -not, D-u-t-z? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education -here in the New Orleans school system? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. -Louis University and Loyola University. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree? - -Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in? - -Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer -of 1963? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first -time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, -the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that -you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that -period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did -have with him. Since I did live in the house and did---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street? - -Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with -him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular -neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this -particular occasion with his little bag and so forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was? - -Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, -you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am -not too sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or -can't you---- - -Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind -of confused now on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and -Oswald was there? - -Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is -when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was -here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery -to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But -there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him -other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, -but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different -environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and -that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that -they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received -better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you -gain an impression about that? - -Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I -couldn't, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first -place? - -Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of -my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he -just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or -anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, -other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort -of thing is concerned? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had -gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in? - -Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or -something, you know, similar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of -photography? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in -the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a -photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that -he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United -States? - -Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of -him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and -wanted to come back to the States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his -experience in Russia? Is that correct? - -Mr. MURRET. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French -Street for about a week? Is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, -how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I -can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might -be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. -I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that -he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or -some place around there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding -a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, -even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding -a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came -back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of -impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the -clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald -apparently rented on Magazine Street? - -Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina -and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or -actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that -you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 -French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened -sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't -have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular -night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he -should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him -on getting a job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car? - -Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the -impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive -a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to -start the car and so forth, what to do on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the -car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he -did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I -guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the -city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where -they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking -places for the golfers, and I had brought him here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street -over to the parking lot in the park? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to -back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big -car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell -him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into -the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is -concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is -my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let -him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French -Street? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or -anything. Nobody was in the park. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. -Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it -was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is -nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could -have handled it, you know, the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car? - -Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself -without your permission? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was -here in New Orleans, as far as you know? - -Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit -priest---- - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee -Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along? - -Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a -sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know? - -Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and -Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, -since that time? - -Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all? - -Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was -at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And -I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested -in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the -Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what -the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the -food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking -him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the -questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with -my brother, you know, just asking him about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that? - -Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? - -Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene, -indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, -there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought? - -Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit -priest? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when -he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for -lunch---- - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French -Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald -during the summer of 1963? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house -some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her? - -Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and -I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually -couldn't speak to her, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could -speak English? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that -she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination---- - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her -use of the English language, did you not? - -Mr. MURRET. Definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the -summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the -assassination? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina -together? - -Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only -time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with -each other? - -Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty -well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget -what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was -in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was -Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like -that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of -sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, -because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, -but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I -didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in -their relationship, as far as you could tell? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics---- - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all? - -Mr. MURRET. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character -from your observations and experience with him in 1963? - -Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing -anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I -say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just -didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other -words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and -get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. -Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He -wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he -just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, -he wouldn't ask for anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of -fellow? - -Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you -form an opinion about his intelligence? - -Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright -in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the -right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved -particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him. -He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and -his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, -with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate? - -Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual -wouldn't use in conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans -Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection -with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair -Play for Cuba Committee literature? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the time? - -Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't -recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail? - -Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out -there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not? - -Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after -the radio debate? - -Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair -Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in -connection with those events? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the -events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct? - -Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? - -Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name? - -Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live? - -Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been -involved in getting Oswald out of jail? - -Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail -he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the -time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you -know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in -there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she -heard what he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he -did? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy? - -Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a -small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to -hold any conversation with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he -was when he was a kid? - -Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he -was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What? - -Mr. MURRET. Harmful. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful? - -Mr. MURRET. Harmless. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret? - -Mr. MURRET. I am 29. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that -right? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you -say, or how much contact did you have with Robert? - -Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't -here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth -that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your -attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, -that you can remember, was there? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about -your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of -that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything -of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked -about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't -mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would -like to have you tell us. - -Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so -happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, -for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, -you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had -located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect -is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in -contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the -next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, -right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it -was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this -employment agency was looking for him? - -Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was -looking for. Other than that, that is all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, -different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he -was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such -that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether -they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes? - -Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it -was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went -looking for a job? - -Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only -suit he had that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out -at the place on French Street? - -Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the -handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag? - -Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft---- - -Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was? - -Mr. MURRET. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember -or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this -point. - -Mr. MURRET. O.K. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR. - -The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., -after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir? - -Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission, -Mr. Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate -Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of -the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts -and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of -November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John -Fitzgerald Kennedy. - -Mr. PIC. I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. -11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the -Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That -Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, -upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances -surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the -subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack -Ruby. - -The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our -duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission -itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody -who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in -any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was -under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew -where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, -to my surprise, that you were very much alive? - -Mr. PIC. I certainly am. - -Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the -street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he -recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted -to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the -Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the -Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also -received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution -137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the -assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. -11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its -powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which -we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of -deposition, as we are doing here today. - -Mr. PIC. May I say something? - -Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything. - -Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, -that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was -still alive. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance. - -Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told -him I didn't; and that was all. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or -misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the -reports of his death were very much exaggerated? - -So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured -that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret -Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the -country, are you not? - -Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or -rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that -right, Mr. Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that took place when? - -Mr. PIC. 1929. - -Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people? - -Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907. - -Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate. - -Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Three years? - -Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually -terminated? - -Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you -separated? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple -of years; is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married -to Marguerite? - -Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk. - -Mr. JENNER. In what company? - -Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company? - -Mr. PIC. I am, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has -changed; is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you do now? - -Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department -of the company. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr. -Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company. - -Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is -that right? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the -company. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who -is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that -right? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your -own words what difficulty you had with her. - -Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it -come out to four. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence? - -Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not. - -Mr. JENNER. On either side? - -Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is -that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time? - -Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, -you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing -off; which we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be -able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a -nice girl at that time? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say -anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We -just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but -there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I -had a rotten disposition, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you? - -Mr. PIC. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening -years; haven't you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr. -Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct? - -Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another -"Jr.," or II or III? - -Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him. - -Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation? - -Mr. PIC. After the separation. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the -separation? - -Mr. PIC. I was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he -worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, -and we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period -of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right? - -Mr. PIC. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place? - -Mr. PIC. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half. - -Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child -support to your son? - -Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was -concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the -attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. -That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much -as I could out of the salary I would make. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to -her? - -Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent -monthly checks. - -Mr. JENNER. In the same amount? - -Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as -alimony? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have -all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her -the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall? - -Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly -or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 -semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her. - -Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a -month, is that right? - -Mr. PIC. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry? - -Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name? - -Mr. PIC. Marjorie. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her given name? - -Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow? - -Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had -died. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy? - -Mr. PIC. Girl. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her name? - -Mr. PIC. Martha. - -Mr. JENNER. How old is she? - -Mr. PIC. 17 this July. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where -Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you? - -Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew -where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she -moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., -or Brownsville; I just don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they -refresh your recollection. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 -Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it. - -Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember -that? - -Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic -Avenue? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year? - -Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947? - -Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue? - -Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort -Worth about then. - -Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she -was in Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments -were finally stopped, is that right? - -Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1950? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved -around quite a bit, as we know? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National -Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our -company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of -red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those -addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where -she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the -check. - -Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and -through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew -he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether -he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury -Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he -had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a -dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, -because I didn't know he was working. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the -Coast Guard? - -Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me -it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. -So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney -and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was -self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, -it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a -letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as -the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last -check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about -the 1-year age, that I actually seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old. - -Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never -seen him? - -Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time. - -Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you -haven't seen Marguerite? - -Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that. - -Mr. JENNER. 37 years? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you? - -Mr. PIC. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did -you? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names -were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, -which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I -didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and -her son, and all. - -I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, -"Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention -it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy -at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. No; I never met him. - -Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is -that right? - -Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl? - -Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment? - -Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had -another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in -the paper. - -Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time? - -Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess -he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother -never did tell him about his old man. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even -know if he knows you are alive, do you? - -Mr. PIC. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things? - -Mr. PIC. No; you never know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it -has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions. - -Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. -Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was -mentioned to me. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if -you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may -waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the -deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now -what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you -want to waive that? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I -can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since -the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want -a lot of publicity or anything, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have -testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news -media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and -telling us what you know about it. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO - -The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. -Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as -follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness -is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint -resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted -governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will -provide you copies of those documents. - -Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness -is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you -actually received 3 days' notice. - -Mr. CARRO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any -question that you will---- - -Mr. CARRO. There's no problem. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro, -concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you -had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time -he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953-54. - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, would you state your full name -for the record. - -Mr. CARRO. Well, my name is John Carro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. CARRO. 56 Lakeside Drive, in Yonkers, State of New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you presently employed? - -Mr. CARRO. I am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of -New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are an assistant to the mayor? - -Mr. CARRO. An assistant to the mayor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. CARRO. I was born in Orocovis, P.R. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. CARRO. August 21, 1927. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States? - -Mr. CARRO. I came to the United States, I believe it was in 1937--'37. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you came to New York at that time? - -Mr. CARRO. New York City; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its -environs? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational -background? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college -and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham -University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in -1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital -corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public -Administration, under the city executive program. - -I am an attorney and have a B.S. degree from the University of Fordham. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here -in New York? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice -in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present -time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law -partnership where I practice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned -as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court. - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New York? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At what time did you first become so assigned? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic -Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am -trying to recollect--from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October -of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public -office or any other---- - -Mr. CARRO. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator -for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer -of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was -with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman -and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a -social--I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I -worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council -of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the -"street gang project." - -From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against -Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative. - -In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a -privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds -and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate -director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the -mayor of the city of New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate -to youth, or more generally---- - -Mr. CARRO. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with -the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board, -the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I -do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge -of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although -that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own -background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor -on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the -Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the -situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become interested in this? Was this -because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior -to that? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up -in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and -actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went -into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much -better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I -happened to read--I heard that probation work with youth--than welfare -investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work, -and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the -streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court -and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police -department, in the thought that I would like to do that. - -I have an interest in young people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you worked as a probation officer -did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes, I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about -that in your own words? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was -about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before -the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey -Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite -a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; -he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of -Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out -why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were -fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had -referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had -been asked to come into court with the boy. - -My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not -bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, -and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging -truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy -be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study. -The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to -make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible -determination as to the case. - -This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made -a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer -assigned to do the investigation in the case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald -was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed -in the Youth House, is that correct? - -Mr. CARRO. Remanded, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Remanded. - -Mr. CARRO. Pending investigation, and for a sociological study while -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he -was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House? - -Mr. CARRO. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to -develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy -about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, -talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole -background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he -was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling -relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this -particular instance it was most important because there was a question -of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the -boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he -lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of -his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get -a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, -his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, -get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed -should happen in this instance. - -Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation -officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation -officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along -with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what -was going on in Youth House. - -In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some -contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, -and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his -off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is -also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, -along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits -to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and -put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given -to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a -decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, -whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, -whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever -the judge would deem in the particular instance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was -remanded to Youth House? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth -House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget -whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York -State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at -least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point -taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, -and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when I -say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with -his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. -This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do -anything. - -The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was -just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for -a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a -little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he -asked for the study at the Youth House. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who worked with Lee Oswald at the Youth House? - -Mr. CARRO. No; I only know that--I did not know the staff by name. I -had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I -know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send -you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report, -but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee -Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that you remember receiving Dr. Hartogs' -report? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the -doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is -incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr. -Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief -psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that -came to us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed -these children and talked to them? - -Mr. CARRO. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or did he just administer the work of other -psychiatrists, do you know? - -Mr. CARRO. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the -work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he -saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr. -Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else can you remember of your contacts with Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. CARRO. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you -can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did -not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the -first couple of days. It was only almost--I believe it was after the -burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the -day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of -the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that -it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas, -1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that -you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior. - -A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you -know who that case is?" - -And he said, "That was the case you handled. Don't you remember?" - -And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and -what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb -feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with -it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer -one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about -something that I knew that no one else knew, and I went upstairs and I -told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that -had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I -should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington, -so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything." - -The story didn't break in the papers--this was on a Tuesday or -Wednesday--until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley, -and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter -showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found -out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called -city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do -with him?" - -They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him." -But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was -actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're -not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened. -I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have -done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know, -that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that -this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were -Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who -spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to -relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy -was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic -probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to -begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. -And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and -he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from -the average boy that I had on probation. - -And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable -boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly -bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat -guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was -one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did -not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; -he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have -liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not--how do you call it--not -odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy -bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is -a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it -mean anything to me. - -As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had -any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I -was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty. - -Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the -fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched -me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just -seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that -once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms -he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he -would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. -I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the -treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he--it -seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some -adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he -was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and -not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity -for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in -perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either -receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at -home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution. - -Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to -involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the -child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened -herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment -and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to -it, and she resisted this. - -We tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to -court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe -it was, and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back -with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision -per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be -brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to -see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms, -and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around -for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about -that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him -psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out -of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the -court's OK. - -As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before -Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes, -that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is -when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the -court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for -working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting -us know, and just never came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea -that you were going to take the boy and place him? - -Mr. CARRO. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly -were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, -"Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and -try that." - -I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the -boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the -recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also; -something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go -back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, -marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is a summary report in the file that he had been -elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report -to that effect. Do you recall anything about that? - -Mr. CARRO. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he -neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never -said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would -pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute -the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper -headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the -American flag." - -Mr. LIEBELER. That happens from time to time, I suppose, in children -that age? - -Mr. CARRO. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little -disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know, -singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I -recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had the feeling that the -possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, -which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a -threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the -boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having -nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as -the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted -that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering -me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to -go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see -the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need -brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of -means in Louisiana when my husband was alive." - -Here in New York she just felt that people were--this was just -bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need -to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he -is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him -there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it -is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is -negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself -will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we -needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may -have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her -involved in whatever plan we had for the boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to seek your opinion on that. - -Mr. CARRO. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so -self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, -and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a -boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went -to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the -attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is -getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot -do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her -inability to cope with this situation. - -Then this plus, this idea--I don't know if she, in fact, came from -wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she -was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been -downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his -problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they -lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar -with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class -Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a -little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis -and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact -that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his -manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he -would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same -way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department -store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was -really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she -seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not -think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if--I -can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years -myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a -New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey -New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business -everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of -situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the -city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or -Louisiana, that this had---- - -Mr. CARRO. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have -thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that -in some other States--I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a -boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to -court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got -involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I -said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no -question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss -was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that. -I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State -and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her -she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under -the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the -court felt that it was OK. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State, -that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on -vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was -referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without -coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before -she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it -would be up to the judge. - -You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit -it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what -you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you -go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or -you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark, -N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with -such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write -to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see -if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan -or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out -of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in -reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests -of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this -is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out -to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the -court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. -And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and -the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing. - -So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have -to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But despite that fact she left the jurisdiction? - -Mr. CARRO. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was -returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then, -and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have -extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. -This is about the sum total of what happened there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of -the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he -went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost -9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various -institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to -service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, -because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that -this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy -of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age -and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were -taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the -kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant -place and he was--well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and -he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated -their being able to service him. - -I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and -they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the -intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him -down. - -Children's village at the time, which could have given service to -this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at -this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so -on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to -our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a -psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at -the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which -was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure -preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were -actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and -this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to -be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the -limits of the situation we had with the boy at home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own -psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth -House, is it not? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d -Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the -kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, -and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would be an outpatient-type situation? - -Mr. CARRO. An outpatient-type of situation, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never actually did do that, however, because he left -the State? - -Mr. CARRO. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and -having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed -than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time? - -Mr. CARRO. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who -committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed -boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a -truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent -behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted -as--I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be -mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really -had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you -know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior -which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more -extreme nature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Than his? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a -real mental problem or prone to violence or---- - -Mr. CARRO. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems -in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York -Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New -York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who -commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really -criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that -attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just -stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a -matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive -psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school -we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More -seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes -in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. -It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm -to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school -rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property -or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in -here. - -It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the -reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because -although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always -someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate -to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the -court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and -parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children. - -But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going -to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the -family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He -wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man. -He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going -for him outside. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show -any inclination to cooperate. - -Mr. CARRO. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there -was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, -"Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through, -between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there -out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him -see these things through. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend -placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy -himself, you would say? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors -rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance -or psychotic disorder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy -was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into -where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out---- - -Mr. CARRO. Fly kites or pigeons, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a -tendency to stay home and watch television? - -Mr. CARRO. No---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Wait, please---- - -Mr. CARRO. I am sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different -kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on -Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of -environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind -that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of -environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is -that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came -here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East -Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a -Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto -Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to -virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city, -because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me -outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my -hands. - -I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was -downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates--I don't think I was down -there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just -stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock. - -Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when -somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I -fought with the Negro boys until things worked out--and, as I remember, -things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school. - -But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the -situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them. - -Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over -his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and -to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids -wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There -is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and -everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and -he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any -part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I -recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school -and that he had other, more important things to learn and do. - -Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I -don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on -my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I -thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way -of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another -fashion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that some statements have been made, based -apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people -who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old, -to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing -the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the -assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such -indication in Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CARRO. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be -extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection -or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a -streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists -along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply -disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a -couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have -done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many -people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that -just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal -living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that -you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from -just blowing up or exploding altogether. - -I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would -someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican -youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe -this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are -human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one -day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and -say, "I am me. I am alive." - -I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond -Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was -flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited -him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the -paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize -that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, -the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment. -And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's -attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, -and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that -motivated Oswald? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently -was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been -knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he -had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some -people are prone to this. - -I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in -my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like -this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want -somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I -don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage. - -As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the -Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said -he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly -these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things -any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that -would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there -would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty -sincerely say such a thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the -fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been -under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to -review the records of the case before you---- - -Mr. CARRO. No; I had no--there was nothing to review. Those -kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only -recollection--and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who -came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned--there were five -reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't -know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he -seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating -what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, -and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my -recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a -friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from -me, who called me to say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you yourself have not actually reviewed---- - -Mr. CARRO. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to -refresh my recollection about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition -that was filed, or the memorandum---- - -Mr. CARRO. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't--an -FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't -know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, -as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what -was in the record there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The record that you prepared---- - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my -record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside -of the records he had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The records which you would have prepared would be -prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and -they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct? - -Mr. CARRO. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point -as to what happened 12 years ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document -that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears -to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald. -This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would -ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you -recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in -fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth -House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in -connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is -the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the -judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form -where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, -the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you -go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, -family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and -neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and -special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, -which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the -incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where -you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and -evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer -based on his getting together all this data. - -And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which -is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the -probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the -actual study. - -And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, -who appeared, when, and I note that my signature--not my signature but -my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took -place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time -he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954. - -Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I -made to the court. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it finally concludes with your statement---- - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court -action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no -appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, -the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported -that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to -the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former -associate thought that the family may have been living in California. - -Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our -jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; -we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but -couldn't get back any positive reports. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would this particular document, which I will mark as -"Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New -York--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of -the record as a special report? - -Mr. CARRO. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually -the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own -small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the -docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are -the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation -department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is -just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the -month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate -report. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of -the action taken? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is the record. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with the case? - -Mr. CARRO. This is the record that the probation officer maintains -while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and -reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and -any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here -and make a small notation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition -for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial -it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying -it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this -report? - -Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for -one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn--and I refer to the -entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation--those bearing the name John -Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked -is a somewhat illegible copy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow -paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and -make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr. -Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would -be of help to the Commission? - -Mr. CARRO. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that -you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been -able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the -time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this -point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you. - -Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and -I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original -psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it -is, and they are amply--I don't think that I could add anything -independently that would be of help to the Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more -questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission -for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is -another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are -associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The -Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely. - -Mr. CARRO. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would -like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help -in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Carro. - -Mr. CARRO. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS - -The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April -16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963, -and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing -the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, -that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and -the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy -of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will -provide you with copies of these documents. - -The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that -a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' -notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also -entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice -since we are here. - -Dr. HARTOGS. That's right, sure, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which -the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in -1953 or 1954. - -Would you state your full name for the record, please. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Renatus Hartogs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Dr. HARTOGS. 7 East 86th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born and when? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States, Doctor? - -Dr. HARTOGS. On December 4, 1940. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You received your education in Germany, is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the -University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical -degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I -came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the -requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a -medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I -have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what field is that? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In clinical psychopathology. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are---- - -Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State -of New York, is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of -medicine? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice -of medicine as a psychiatrist? - -Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United -States as a psychiatrist? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium? - -Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of -medicine? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House -of New York City, is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief -psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have -been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of -psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are -psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number. -As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I -submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and -it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not. - -I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric -aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very -interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional -public of New York City is invited. - -So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason -why I vaguely remember him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief -psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much -the same in 1953 as they are now? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A staff? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have -about two staff members for every child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were -other psychiatrists. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your -staff. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953? - -Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. -Sometimes we had even four. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who -were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they -were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff -continuously. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New -York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? -Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the -city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. -Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then -later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration -and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was -maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation -department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth -House. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it -still a private organization at that time? - -Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the -procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House -for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the -Youth House; he goes to the Youth House. - -Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then? - -Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary -screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure -drawings. That is a special test that is given. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a -preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right -away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis -and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in -Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child -goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the -techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy. -Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to -school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops -for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have -our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health. - -So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various -departments. - -Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the -parents of the child who are invited. - -Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see -the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the -social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, -I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I -have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the -recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist. - -And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate -in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth -House staff. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your -time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House? - -Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you -see during the period of time in a week, average week? - -Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours -with each child, is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen -for about half an hour to an hour. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By you? - -Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which -takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that -counts about 2 hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth -House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can -remember about that interview in your own words. - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed -this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on -this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge -of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to -have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had -a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was -rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a -mild charge as truancy from school. - -This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is -the reason why we discussed him in the seminar. - -I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, -pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had -to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous -fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact -with reality. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was? - -Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning -to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his -own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with -people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember -actually. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection -of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you -gave; is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview -with Lee Oswald itself? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he -was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture -of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that -you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the -general subject matter of the seminar? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the -professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an -interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because -of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and -the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was -opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about -the development, background and early history of the child; then the -Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the -school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his -findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the -findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the -court. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject -matter for the seminar? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select -these children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar -prepared? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written -down; it is purely informal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar -would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you -and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court -in respect of Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this -youngster should be committed to an institution. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you -recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the -personality pattern disturbance; is that correct? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that -is the average stay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is -observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric -observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, -or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his -actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a -training school. These are the three purposes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy -would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something -like that? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is -maximum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended -that Oswald be committed to? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific -institution. This is a prerogative of the court. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of -institution to which you recommend a child? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training -school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this -case what I recommended. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, -because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the -FBI? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that -is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of -his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially -dangerous? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after -the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had -previous contact? - -Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice -Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that -Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the -psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I -was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording? - -Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; -potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the -expressions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of -work? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others? - -Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that -indicated this? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that -Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New -York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the -one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did -not know for sure, but it is possible. - -And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, -"You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for -sure that it was me, because they must have read a report. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that -you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some -doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then -reconstructed everything in my mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated, by recalling---- - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, then I recalled everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any statement to television people in -connection with this at all? - -Dr. HARTOGS. About Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the -television people asked me to make a statement on television in general -about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any -name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general -psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the -President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall approximately what you said? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That a person who would commit such an act has been very -likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against -persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to -overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an -act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, -which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge -his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general -terms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated -on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had -examined Lee Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was not? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call -me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or -something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that time neither one of you were---- - -Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination -which you had made of Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the -report which you made at the time you examined Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that -report since the assassination? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards -your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own -independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview -with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed -you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly -impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time, -because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling -that to the agents? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in -control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. -He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say, -nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective -about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I -remembered; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and -pale-faced boy? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about -Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality -disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis? - -Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as -I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their -opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, -his mental endowment? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least -average at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. -Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a -document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a -report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 -years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by -the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report -for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to -my initials. - -(Witness complies.) - -(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's -Report" marked "Exhibit 1.") - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the -report that you prepared at that time? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at -the report that you made at that time? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern -disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." -Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you -wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built, -well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on -charge of truancy." - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled -"Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, -did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should -be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and -guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should -be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to -a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same -time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance -through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work -out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an -outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted -to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment -on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore -possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this -boy?" - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly -understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11 -years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11 -years ago. - -Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and -on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that -possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the -seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any -indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would -indicate this possible violent outburst, is there? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall -it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it -in the report? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the -diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with -a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade -aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I -did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is -no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially -dangerous" in the report. - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my -words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in -occurrence, are they not amongst people? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the -three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or -an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The -passive-aggressive one is the least common. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the -passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, -what do they indicate? - -Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under -which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile -tendencies toward others? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the -aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations -or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length -of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, -this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around -the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike -everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the -Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would -indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the -mother? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but -the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for -the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment -or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not? - -Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of -psychotic mental changes could be made"? - -Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and -hallucinations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological -impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort -which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality? - -Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home -environment here in New York at the time he came? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you -now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having -died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and -that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a -short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the -Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department -store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found -difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed -differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand -Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a -generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not -dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given -some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the -people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did -not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were -true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way -that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality -disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or -conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern -disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early -childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It -is not the result of recent conditioning. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an -opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have -caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy? - -Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a -father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved -mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks -that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what -motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about? - -Dr. HARTOGS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the -report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for -giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we -want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much, -Doctor. - -Dr. HARTOGS. Okay. - -"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to -Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of -being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is -concerned. This is his first contact with the law. - -"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely -talking about himself and his feelings. He likes _the_ give the -impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep -himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the -effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional -wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient -clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of -_awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal -tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and -I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and -according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and -negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content -was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at. - -"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning -presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract -thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation -in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. -Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the -television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the -learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is -'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The -discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the -low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has -arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and -emotional discouragement. - -"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was -born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while -the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This -occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision -of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely -dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only -way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself -competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee -claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has -hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food -for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some -food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother -rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed -the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much -on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has -vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, -through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and -frustrations. He did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and -when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_ -of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is -to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social -worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved -and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to -understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does -not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent -protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a -complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested -enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and -help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee. - -"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the -exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting -from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental -injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental -disease. - -"_Summary for Probation Officer's Report_: - -"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and -functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic -truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of -neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee -has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid -features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an -emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of -really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, -absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted -mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form -of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression -that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very -patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into -group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he -should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and -guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should -be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, -to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the -same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic -guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not -work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan -on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could -be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression -that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter -and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to -the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly -of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the -organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the -PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood." - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL - -The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m., -on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, -N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was -examined and testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized -to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has -promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from -witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is -entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give -testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each -witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you -will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony -since you are here. Is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that -if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your -own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts, -releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you -wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the -transcripts are released? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as -a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and -his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details -of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, -if you would. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. 1347 River Road, Teaneck. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. New York City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in -New York as a social worker? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working as a social worker? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. In March of 1950. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue in that work? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. I'm still working as a social worker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the city? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; on a part-time basis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational -background? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of -Social Work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with -the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that -correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For whom did you work as a social worker? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Youth House. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still working for Youth House? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I'm not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did -you terminate your employment with Youth House? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in -August--well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same -institution setup, in August of 1958. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth -House as it existed in 1953? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. In what aspect? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went -there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had -gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for -a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court, -so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for -diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth -House, which was given to the judge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a report was this? What was in it? What did -it say? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history -taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy -and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth -House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House -psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the Youth House psychiatrist? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Dr. Renatus Hartogs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were -there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and -reported, do you know? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by -a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from -time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by -Dr. Hartogs alone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report -of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other -workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report -from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, -so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those would be given to the social workers; is that -correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And used as a basis for the social worker's report? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Not as a basis for it but incorporated into it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from -the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her -report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social -worker; is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the -course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. After the President's assassination, the name meant -nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and -it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it -was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband -that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time -I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought -that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he -looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he -was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that -was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans, -which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I -remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as -it was at that time? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little -boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your -recollection? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And improve it at all? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since the---- - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in -those days. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to his mother at all? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am -terribly curious to see my report again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you know Dr. Hartogs? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to -1958--6 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him since that time? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; we don't see each other socially at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't spoken to him? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About the Oswald case; is that right? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't seen him since I left Youth House. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that from time to time -the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to -instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the -psychologists and other employees of Youth House? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars. -We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I -remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being -the sole role. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But there were seminars? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you. -Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the -subject of one of these seminars? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for -Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. I only read in the paper that it was truancy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no independent recollection about it -otherwise at all? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled -"Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7, -1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the -social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time -have been you; is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And still is? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the -report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey -Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you -prepared? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. This is indubitably mine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact -with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of -the interview, were they not? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he -was still at Youth House. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The point being that the report would accurately reflect -the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. As accurately as I could; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it was prepared on or about the time that you -conducted the interview, was it not? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Correct, yes; and shortly afterward. - -(Document marked "Exhibit 1.") - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as -Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964, -and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if -you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking -about the same thing. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another report, which upon examination you -will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the -Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic -copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated -into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which -should go into the report to the court. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown -you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your -actual contact with the boy and with the mother? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared -Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to -the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other -personnel; is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been -referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy," -and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of -7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" -and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework -supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2. - -(Document marked "Exhibit 2.") - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have -written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an -"E" like that. I don't know who did that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report -prepared by you? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation -into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the -undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are -talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in -connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed -so that you could add anything other than that which is already set -forth in the written report which you prepared at that time? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you -prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in -1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent -tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of -violence? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report -that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of -serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not -prepared to say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the -material set forth in your report; is that correct? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add -to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be -helpful to the Commission in its work? - -Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much -on behalf of the Commission. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel. - -Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO - -The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the -U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness -is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint -resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted -governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. - -The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot -do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will -provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred. - -Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness -is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give -testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice. - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he -wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice -requirement since you are here; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the -association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey -Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine -Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of -the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa -Ana, Calif., for a period of time. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state -your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank? - -Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number? - -Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed? - -Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, -71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army? - -Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army? - -Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a -linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. -That is what that last 6 in that digit means. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army? - -Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you -received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were -stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. -Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for -Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic -training took care of that. - -December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I -arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile -Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was -transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same -artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's -driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I -could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then -promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany? - -Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1962? - -Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line -battery, Delta Battery. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time? - -Mr. DELGADO. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook? - -Mr. DELGADO. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that -correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook. - -Mr. LIEBELER. First cook? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am -working. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your -military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified -to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to -establish your proficiency in the Spanish language? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the -OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the -service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military -records. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language -school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish -language? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into -the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where? - -Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn? - -Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the -Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's -no record of it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and -my mother lives in California. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave -me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine -Corps; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school. - -Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like -a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to -school in P.S. No. 2. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn? - -Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. -I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue -Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California? - -Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back -to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went -to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it -is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and -went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the -11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual -Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that -correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you -then join the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d -Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that? - -Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making -Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2 -months, and I joined the Marine Corps. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico? - -Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My -mother came when she was about 13. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now? - -Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, -S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp -Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in -electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? -Do you remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon -graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was -aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air -Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning -school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and -graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, -Santa Ana, Calif. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any -time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi -or Jacksonville? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school -in Jacksonville and Biloxi? - -Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military -Occupation Specialty. Is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was -what? - -Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I -guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, -control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and -help of aircraft running into problems. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got -discharged. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your -training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort -in the course of your work at Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified -information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret -clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and -challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature -of your work, you actually worked in a control room? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you -would then challenge that aircraft? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft -requesting it to identify itself were classified information? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the -radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each -site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are -and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what -outfit covers us and things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter---- - -Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the -capabilities of the radars, as I said before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how high---- - -Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets -knew these things? - -Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication -charts, which is also a secret. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts? - -Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the -phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. -Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, -he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or -code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it -up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or -not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour -to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of -any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed? - -Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa -Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. -I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we -had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This -is all before Christmas, before I took my leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958? - -Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and -he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody -bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't -associate with too many people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really -developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was -commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the -beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just -so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when -Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, -and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, -and they all took over." It was a big joke. - -So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he -got transferred to mine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. -Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he -didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So -the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, -you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts? - -Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many men---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half -lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with -a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in -one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we -had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being -transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And -we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer -that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how -to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of -life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. -He didn't think our Government had too much to offer. - -He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified -information that I know of out or see anybody about it. - -As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range -at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a -sharpshooter at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the -rifle; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use? - -Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's - -Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle? - -Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut -designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them -up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in -good shape, clean? - -Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting -gigged for one thing or another. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle? - -Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as -the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was -told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was -basically a man that complained quite frequently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they -told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him -and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each -other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man -in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an -easier way for him to get something done. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were -asked to do something instead of ordered to do something? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called -him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oz? - -Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the -bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the -outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up -that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling -me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he -didn't understand it like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa -Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date -of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before -I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately? - -Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to -the time he came to Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from -the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the -Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a -couple of guys stationed with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was -two of them stationed with him overseas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else -overseas other than Atsugi? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines -for a while? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; not that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been -stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a -small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the -Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this -question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle -practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much -detail as you can remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before -we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second -highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 -to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low -ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the -sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't -firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best -firer on the line. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at -all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think -it was, just barely sharpshooter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Minimum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Rank? - -Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; -pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, -and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a -plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one? - -Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there -was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on -line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but -at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, -because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, -but he didn't give a darn. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely? - -Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as -the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that -the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates -the targets. - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as -Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular -lines; then we went to the pits, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very -comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, -you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the -disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, -you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in -the line from you when you fired? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one? - -Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle -at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my -picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was -doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I -didn't want no competition. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just five? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in -the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that -you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your -score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that -way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO -line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down -there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, -and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they -both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the -man down the pit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's -score could have been fixed up; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go -down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, -and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is -pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both -scorecards to correspond with each other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at -Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been -interviewed prior to this time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom? - -Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you? - -Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About five times? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times? - -Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, -because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same -fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different -fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a -Spanish interpreter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you -speak? - -Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go -down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all -right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college -graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type -of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish -countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you -know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man -from England the way he speaks pure English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when -he spoke to you in Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty -in interpreting my Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion -that you weren't very proficient in Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I -go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they -talked to you? Were they---- - -Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he -was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two -different fellows. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether? - -Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. -He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, -and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this -Spanish guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to -you? - -Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about -January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe -he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the -battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish -fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They -were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you -was when? - -Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after -Kennedy's assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November -22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice -that you have just told us about? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him? - -Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask -for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I -didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also -keeping the score. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a -good rifle shot; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his -rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average -marine? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a -bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in -the pool; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty -high; that's about all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview -that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took -of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at -the base--is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I -have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the -Spanish-speaking man was there? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you -remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time -they came up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most -marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a -pot, but that is the same thing? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started -for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado -said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning." - -Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not -come close to winning? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I -always had an expert badge on me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that -correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the -carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be -reflected in your military records, would they not? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files -also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they -are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes -into your records. That's why they are so strict. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that -qualification firing that you can pencil in your score? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had -penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that? - -Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it -you were more than lucky. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was -a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way -of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who -is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of -yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get -together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say -to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on -target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each -other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice -of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with -the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You -just have to take your chances. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or -firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals -like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing -like this? - -Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the -targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score. - -Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you -qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the -rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO -and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that -means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in -with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other -along. - -You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is -shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him -the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even -in connection with this? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took -second place? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I -didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to -school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I -never got real close to any of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said -that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that -just must be a mistake; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said -that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he -didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was -a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how -you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the -first interview that you had? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, -and I was at ease there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been? - -Mr. DELGADO. The address? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and -qualify was some time in the spring of 1959? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time -everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going -to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could -have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept -on badgering me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the -Spanish-speaking agent was present? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you? - -Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about? - -Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking -at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was -sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking -out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he -was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case -of jitters, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, -that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to -get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have -got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in -Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish -into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, -you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go -to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go -in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going -to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, -you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him. - -You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where -we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we -try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, -and that is not going to do. - -If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is -giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to -hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you -know, get with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and -forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you -mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that -correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with -Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the -time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made -it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one -of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along -the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities -of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was -going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people -a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian -purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated -with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, -and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot -him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he -should have gone about doing it. - -Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and -I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro -was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, -you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came -in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, -enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become -officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable -discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he -got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and -fought with Castro in the Escambres. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; -and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, -you know. - -So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish -and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the -same line as Castro did at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and -lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, -you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take -over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of -Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, -pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the -United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning -of Castro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and -were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was -out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and -things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. -But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started -actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to -Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on -asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English -person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution -movement?" - -I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any -country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be -trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he -started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought -himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to -me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but -enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common -Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which -way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff. - -As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate -of some sort, he couldn't hold his own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something -like that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and -asking for things and telling them something. - -And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how -about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't -know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to -get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I -told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this -wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to -answer him. I told him go see them. - -After a while he told me he was in contact with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you -know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one -time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I -was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, -and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was -addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as -I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling -me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these -letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all -the time. He always had money. That's why. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say? - -Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was -pretty tight. - -So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa -Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make -it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is -on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some -people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him. - -We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small -chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his. - -I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay -like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train. - -Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana, -Mexico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can -remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate. - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; -after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man, -because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a -call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be -a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find -somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit -with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours -talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or -what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing -when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about -every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you -know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was -posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half -before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time -to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to -10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or -otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock, -if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 -o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night. - -I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew -that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick -mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he -was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his -mother was sick. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked -to? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard -duty that he was on; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run? - -Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to -4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. -Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time -with the Cuban Consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to -be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. Also, up to this time -he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from -home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our -hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see -one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact -with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and -newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it -was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the -Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; -it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, -so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that -periodical. It was a newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the -Cuban consulate; did he not? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, -and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we -get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know? - -Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came -to Oswald from the Cuban consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the -envelope, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive -seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost -looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I -just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't -understand. It was Latin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban -consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that -envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and -one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested -because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that -paper again, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban -consulate was about? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the -conversation that you had about going over to Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had -this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to--once -he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to -a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in -2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over -here in 2 years, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far -as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going -over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider---- - -Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started -actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you -know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact -if we wanted to go, you know, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious -about going to Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, -so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's -attitude and his approach? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper -reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same -reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't -getting the money from Cuba that we were before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were -getting a distorted view of Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was -happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much -correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got -came from the Cuban consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started -corresponding with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or -pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian--aside from -English, of course? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think -it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big -block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty -good, so I understand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that? - -Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a -whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would -try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn -a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire -to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. -And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some -idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he -probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in -Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty -in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that -he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come -over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas -to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must -have been supported by Castro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee in Louisiana? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of -his arrest. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing -pamphlets out in the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after---- - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until -approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in -Germany? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to -school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop -that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was -thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never -did follow through. There was too much redtape. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, -but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you -learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not? - -Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got -discharged. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures -all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the -investigation there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out -of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you -were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that -he was in Berlin, going to school? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this -idea? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he -couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure -he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict, -you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought -he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to -study there. He wanted to study psychology. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university -that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the -Marines? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's -two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If -he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was -in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to -Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in -psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably -wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very -well have gone to the one in Berlin? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train -him their way. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet -Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they -would train him their way? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the -Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to -use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to -be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a -factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating -to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured -this out for yourself? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak -Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine -Corps? - -Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and -hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be -understood. That's not too clear, is it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a -117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was -interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, -things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read -poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and -things like that, he was a great fan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently -proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or -anything like that. - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how -well Oswald could speak Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him? - -Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then -this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave -me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test? - -Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you -know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read -it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me -what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that? - -Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you -think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you -know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you -know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time -understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking -fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him -what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times -he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words -for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. -That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it -off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in -Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on -socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were -held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would -speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far -as basic conversation and debate; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about -socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give -him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish -in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him? - -Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of -superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In -fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because -we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak -Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was -small talk when we were talking Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you -on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became -so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on -socialism in Spanish. - -Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our -Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in -front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically -the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, -and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were -exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever -we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it -either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English? - -Mr. DELGADO. In English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple -of other fellows went to Tijuana. - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because -when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was -Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me -something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he -would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with -the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just -what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI -agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to -learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach -them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was -going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down -there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he -asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had -no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your -outfit? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? - -Mr. DELGADO. Jones. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Jones? - -Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating? - -Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do? - -Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another -fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've -teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some -money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I -haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in -Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that. -Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a -little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same -amount of Spanish as Oswald knew? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much? - -Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than -they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a -book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald -was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he -would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for -this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can -use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and -present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a -misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I -would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some -place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you -know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way -of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase. -I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of -these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't -put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's -the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that -you use it now and not later?" Things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to -put them in a sentence logically? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that? - -Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In -Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the -show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the -show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it -around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much -the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned -the Spanish words? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that -Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly -proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish -phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas -known? - -Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he -wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you -know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if -you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and -made himself understood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the -kind you buy out there for about $2. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You -mentioned before he spoke Russian. - -Mr. DELGADO. Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that -time or highly proficient? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the -paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could -speak it also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then -another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was -German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't -figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some -of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize -them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do -remember, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German? - -Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been -to Germany? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, -you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other -language to any extent; he just used a few words? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in -doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; -and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I -was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was -speaking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words? - -Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just -phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the -Marines? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any -Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were -stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same -thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in -English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any -Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then? - -Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught -him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my -help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing -that is happening now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to -get you to change your story? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the -proposition that Oswald understood Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say. - -Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to -believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had -the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not -being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be -at a tie with the Cuban government. - -Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI -agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about -Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you -get about the agents? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no -authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach -somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I -am concerned. - -If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6 -months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me, -I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my -ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could -take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach -him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach -him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months' -time he could hold a conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself -were not good at Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents' -attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, -he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he -did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My -dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you -know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I -don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't -tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That -is no practical use for him, you know. - -I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a -Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer -from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what -I teach these guys, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and -understand them; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and -Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that -he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could -not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the -Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your -Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and -real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak -Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard -time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and -sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer -bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied -that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking -agent was there? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is -that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your -Spanish to express yourself completely? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what -that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say -it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just -about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is -working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other -fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and -deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made -another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the -majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States? - -Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then? - -Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles -with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many -times Oswald went to Los Angeles? - -Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just once? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as -far as I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one -occasion? - -Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these -people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never -asked him. It wasn't my business, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban -Consulate? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of -some sort. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on -weekends at other times? - -Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know---- - -Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one -particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one -occasion that you can remember; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same -answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, -that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back -and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, -you know. I was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding -officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other -week or anything like that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to Los Angeles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Every week? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three -weekends a month. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times -that he went into Los Angeles? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that -Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport -shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited -up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is -that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that he would often talk at length about the opera; -is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried to be a listener, but I wasn't too -interested. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to be interested in girls? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend -write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; -never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And -when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9 -times out of 10 I ended up paying for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I -read in Life Magazine? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say? - -Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a -statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a -statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the -football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact -in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a -captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he -went off the team. - -To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant -colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in -contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on -details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in -the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the -football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we -worked, and he was too old to play football. - -Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I -remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald -left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's -what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big -agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like -this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along -and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was? -Was this the issue---- - -Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the -picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover, -holding the rifle? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or -psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was -commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with -Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever -comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going -to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any -interest in sports? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the -football team? - -Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went -out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you -know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and -handball; and that was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player? - -Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play? - -Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, -quarterback or anything like that, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these? - -Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the -battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for -competition. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football. - -Mr. DELGADO. Flag football. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football? - -Mr. DELGADO. Touch football. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this -trip to Tijuana? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, it happened on one of our weekends off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me there. I would say about May, something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959. - -Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before -the rifle qualification or after? - -Mr. DELGADO. After. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much after? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period, -because we were about just gotten paid, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I -can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why -because they worked in a different department than I did there, never -had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had -the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told -them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for -a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he -wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with -me plenty of times and he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's -go to Tijuana." - -He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of -us were, in casual clothes. - -We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and -all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't -register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How -did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before, -because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to -get to this place, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo? - -Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of Tijuana? - -Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of Tijuana. Have you been over there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No. - -Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have -got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles -out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2 -miles away from the center of the town. - -When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he -had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had -been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I -can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting -bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have -been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking -fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of -being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these -clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was -really nice, a nice place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, -he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big -girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all. - -Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling -stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you -know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about -the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you -can remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was -when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P. -gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put -in for a new I.D. card and what have you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Tijuana? - -Mr. DELGADO. In Tijuana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the -customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone. - -Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay in Tijuana itself or did you stay across the -border? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown Tijuana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are -some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a -girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me -like he had one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his -experiences, that you can remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of -life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like -that to exist, things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a -copy of Das Kapital? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember? - -Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was -circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one -time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was -reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said -that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it. - -So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying -the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know. - -He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it. - -Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the -room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to -put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to -assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only -logical explanation. - -They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see -him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, -you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the -room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to -find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals -take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book, -the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. -But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and -the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist -people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the -socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like -that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running -the whole farm and the farmer was working for them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know the name of the book? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the book? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is called the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell. - -Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he -wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read -it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention -apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they -got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting -among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing -that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made -the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No. - -Mr. DELGADO. That is just the way you interpret it; right? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an -anti-Communist book. - -Mr. DELGADO. Is it really? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each -other a little bit; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on -persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being -shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you -know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point -came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army, -very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he -was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady -stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in -charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to -have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's -statement with no proof whatsoever. - -So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new -governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, -something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you -will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," -you know. - -I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they -started executing these people on just mere word of mouth. - -Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on -there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting -more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. More highly? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month -later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must -have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I -come back he was already gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he -actually got out of the Marines? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get -away from Oswald before you went on leave? - -Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and -all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be -under another guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to -talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue -with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly -disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got -to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk -out and leave the conversation in the air. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody? - -Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at -Santa Ana? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is -that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted? - -Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the -section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found -out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to -the other huts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before -this question of your transfer ever came up? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let -us review that for a moment. - -Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately---- - -Mr. DELGADO. 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave? - -Mr. DELGADO. What? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and -left, or did you go on leave and then come back? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave? - -Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something -like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I -think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part -to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come -back to New York? - -Mr. DELGADO. To New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them? - -Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came -back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the -story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under -investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them -about August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July? - -Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I -know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good -weather. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually -transferred to another hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only -transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a -transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be -bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, -and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a -hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth -and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a -hardship discharge, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same -quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the -Marines together about going to Russia? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never did? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least -$800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to -go through. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you -mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was? - -Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los -Angeles--the month, you want? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it---- - -Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was -one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle -practice? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I -don't think we had any political discussions at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I -say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these -incidents, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after -your leave before you were discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset -hut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call -Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is -German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. -But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald -"Comrade," or anything like that, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Call. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know? - -Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. -Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He -used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," -and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call -said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get -mixed up in it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him -Oswaldovich? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too? - -Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have -too many close friends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a -good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly -for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because -he liked classical music and good books, now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports -and that sort of thing? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know -Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing -formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and -some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they -were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. -So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing -it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack -around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled -that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time -since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped -out, Oswald the first one he seen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that? - -Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. -The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who? - -Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad -leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a -sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute -him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of -these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging -next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's -what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who -might have known Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but -I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, -Holbrook or--something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato -rancher. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these -people? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho -usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud -about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not -the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked -in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were -pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But -Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember -mentioning him to the FBI agents? - -Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short -fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged -from the Marine Corps. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call? - -Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he -was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged? - -Mr. DELGADO. Corporal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what? - -Mr. DELGADO. Private. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't -been promoted? - -Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he -was court-martialed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who -knew him from overseas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the -war room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were -passing notes back and forth. - -Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a -big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets -would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when -we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft -were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to -talk, he would hand a note to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time? - -Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at -this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who -had the aircraft on their scopes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes? - -Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from -doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on -the plotting board. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were -permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. -Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that -you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks. - -Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI? - -Mr. DELGADO. Positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all? - -Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have -made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have -been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was he? - -Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. -His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big -boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I -wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he? - -Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, -and he was also our platoon officer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant -Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that -correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard -shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk? - -Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant -Lusk? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them? - -Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the -misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us -up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 -o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy -walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the -diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old -man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up -there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, -"You're getting as bad as Oz." - -But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with -the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like -walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on -restriction at the same time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be -court-martialed for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties -with Oswald? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion? - -Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to -do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. -We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including -Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go -to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other -countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you -back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say? - -Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in -trouble like that? - -Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period -of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. -And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a -route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if -you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And -he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm -bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the -same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two -guys defected. - -Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this -later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it -was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working -for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same -route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, -and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing -just how you go about doing it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also -defected to Russia at that time? - -Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year -afterwards? - -Mr. DELGADO. A year later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men -did defect? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I -assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the -two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I -remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we -were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get -there, now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States -into Mexico into Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I -would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something -to that effect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were -going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination -that Oswald went to Mexico? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to -Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico -on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him -to cross over into Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba. - -Mr. DELGADO. Or had any---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going -to Cuba. - -Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are -confusing this as something that Oswald said before? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according -to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route -was done in 1960 or 1961. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion? - -Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. -That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was -religious. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a -Maker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth -or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one -falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about -religion? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with -religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, -you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He -himself never went. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, -you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. -Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show -how wrong it was? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and -I told them he was an atheist. That's all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote -from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look -silly? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he -did that? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism -that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the -Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase -it--everything was common or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good -thing? - -Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the -military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an -individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together -in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning -everything, and everybody worked for the state. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, -and like socialism, and still hate the military? - -Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people -love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same -people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant -Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked -discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that -told him what to do? - -Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. -He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at -all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, -or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any -kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a -complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been -longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no -respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. -But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, -he wouldn't like anything you told him to do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this -comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military? - -(Short recess.) - -(Question read.) - -Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that -the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to -do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs -along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that -order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a -whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would -argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that -somebody should give orders like this and---- - -Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone -to the Soviet Union? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe---- - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to -do any such thing? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that -he planned to go to Russia? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before---- - -Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to -the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once? - -Mr. DELGADO. Once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition -treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into -any trouble? Do you remember that? - -Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he -ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other -countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina -would be the next best." - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he -intended to go to Russia? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition -treaties? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel---- - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them? - -Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you -know, university--campus. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. -Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was -discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or -three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went -down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because -it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name? - -Mr. DELGADO. Don. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Don? - -Mr. DELGADO. Don. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the -same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your -recollection on that? - -Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I -seen Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, -you know, that kind of talk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to -teach---- - -Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we -were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time -once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, -so we didn't have that much time together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on -the post for a while after he came to---- - -Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and -then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife -in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call -him Lee or---- - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name? - -Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the -military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow -referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last -name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I -didn't even know his name was Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with -Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he -asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in -any kind of real program to teach him Spanish? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he -wanted interpreted, that's it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in -your outfit? - -Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of -the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, -Charley Brown, but I can't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell? - -Mr. DELGADO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI? - -Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. -I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored -fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the -dark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the -FBI now? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not -Brown. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you -think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation? - -Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this -particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his -estimation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were -as smart as Oswald was? - -Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get -in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The officers? - -Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, -which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would -say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of -five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you -know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, -you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and -politics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could -imagine. - -Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used -to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got -in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just -walk off, you know, and leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him? - -Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional -beer. I never seen him drunk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any -homosexual tendencies? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with -girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In -fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he -thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit -with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two -fellows they caught. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or -did you ever discuss that with him? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was -studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, -you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go -and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was -more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here -and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you -know, and he'd argue that point. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow? - -Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor? - -Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical -joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only -one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a -quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his -face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through -open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could -remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you -know [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced? - -Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any -sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have -no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very -much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS - -The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at -U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first -duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows: - -Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 -12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone -conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general -counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the -Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a -resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President -Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; -and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the -taking of depositions. - -And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are -aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the -duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and -involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald -Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons -who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people -involved, who became involved in that tragic event. - -One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is -our information that you had some contact with him while you were in -the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a -few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089. - -Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, -are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the -Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty -in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what -and who you are right at the moment. - -Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie -Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education -with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And with a family? - -Mr. POWERS. Of two children. - -Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American? - -Mr. POWERS. That's also correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And where were you born? - -Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my -birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers? - -Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become -acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise? - -Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first -arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville, -Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of -the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine -in charge. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time? - -Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that? - -Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them---- - -Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your -recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it. - -Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders. - -Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping -and Receiving Station, Keesler---- - -Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May -1956. - -Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. 1957? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report -to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block -21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force -Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators -Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon -arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty." - -And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these -marines. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders -because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had -with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in -fact it was May 2, 1957? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him -while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. -I mean previous to this May 2d order. - -Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he -doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of -time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the -only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were -directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, -if you would like to call it that. - -Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. -I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's -correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in -which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your -group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to---- - -Mr. POWERS. Keesler---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in -Mississippi, Biloxi? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And who were the others? - -Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Read it, please. - -Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. -Camarata, 1632342. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against -mine? I had 1653230, am I in error? - -Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that -appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next -name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that -appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d? - -Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please. - -Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have -an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you -about. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did. - -Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be -together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time? - -Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"? - -Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from -then on were--ran relatively parallel? - -Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We -did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders -to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at -Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the -same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and -graduation, if you would like to call it that. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat -because some of the people reported in early to California and some of -them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that -some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, -which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different. - -I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, -Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and -Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east -coast, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled -from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he -was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was -normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this -attachment to Keesler. - -I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the -other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age? - -Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth? - -Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was---- - -Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October -18, 1939? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval -Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with -respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any -question about him? - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful? - -Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that -you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact -that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a -train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most -of us. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given? - -Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 -days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed -Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. -So we reported for duty on that particular day. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, -give his training, in Keesler Field. - -Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the -operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft -in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was -similar; it was the same in context. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men? - -Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively -parallel then? - -Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as -attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same -level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were -brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of -what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in -the classes that we did attend. - -Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and -warning operator course? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other -aircraft warning devices? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military -Occupation Specialty? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming -out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and -then after-- - -Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me. - -Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it -does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they -issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may -be somewhat faded or dim. - -And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional -digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground -control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early -warning system. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler? - -Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we -picked up our orders to go to California. - -Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June -19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July -1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in -the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred -here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would -be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20---- - -Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by -commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there -to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then -proceeded to California by commercial vehicle. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, -Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at -Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was -he a loner while he was at Keesler Field? - -Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to -use. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to -come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that -he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was -always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would -get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general -personality would alienate the group against him. - -And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come -to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life -where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a -personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was -concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine -characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were -concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to -a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. On what? - -Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, -this is a personal opinion. - -And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he -was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were -in there in Mississippi. - -He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one -that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was -concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything. - -He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by -education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an -intelligent individual. - -He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what? - -Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit. - -Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he -was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, -that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way -out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my -mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that -is really true or something that I want to recall---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like---- - -Mr. POWERS. About him. - -Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your -impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to -do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that -took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and -thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report -from you as we possibly can. - -Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that -it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to -me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that -particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same -barracks? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular -barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as -possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, -two in the room. - -It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a -squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first -time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he -stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, -but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that -something came up at this particular time. - -He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better -than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just -as good as anybody wanted to be. - -Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a -class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability? - -Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified -to say who was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the -course of your studies? - -Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was -talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to -me, please? - -(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire -that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from -Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at -Keesler? - -Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual -in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that -most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together -here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together -and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other -personally more than at any other time. - -I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind -as well as the other people in the group. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as -leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to -worry about him as competitively? - -Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our -careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't -any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were -all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there -was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the -marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the -way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and -well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an -advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any -differentiation of privates. - -I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest -relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank -barrier or difference here. - -I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school -and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which -we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is -a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce -discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank -said something. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out? - -Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant. - -Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had -homosexual tendencies? - -Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one -is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their -characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their -personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some -respects. - -Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine---- - -Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely -related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that -period of time. - -Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that -your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you -elaborate on that? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to -lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group -felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if -what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go -along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on -the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time -he did not. - -And I would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was -responsive to the group as a whole. - -At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see -today. I see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and -of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for -education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who -was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say -he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own -that he was an individual that you could sway. - -Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further -myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that -I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is -the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term. - -I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, -and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have. - -I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and -he stood in his beliefs. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching? - -Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high -school, if any? - -Mr. POWERS. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a -Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree -from the University, and this will either be in physical education or -guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education -attendance after you left the Marines? - -Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine -Corps, and then I went after my service. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period -about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school? - -Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of -the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that -had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in -the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my -education. - -And I think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any -individual that had a college education, there was a number of them -while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a -college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these -boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And -I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading -and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things -of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of -college education. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any -disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of -his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further -education? - -Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject? - -Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was -there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason -that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, -he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he -didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service -to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines -jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your -attention of any kind? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in -my mind at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this---- - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he--during this -period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans? - -Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to -go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was -only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home -on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were -free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. -And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't -in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends. - -I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all -weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this -possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at -Biloxi, Miss. - -Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together -on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or -more of you? - -Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we -had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as -long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at -this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were -somewhat different than the other fellows. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base? - -Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home -in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to -the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots -of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used -to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go -downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, -I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and -Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, -they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie -around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald -going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. -And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he -went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever -around there. - -Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he -have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave -card periods? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it -wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, -we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to -the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall -him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays -or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines -were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force -inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home -to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and -we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was -anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to -get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he -went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the -Biloxi area, is your impression? - -Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you -mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force -base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, -the town, the community, I'm not sure. - -But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would -be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base. - -Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel -to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is -that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the -scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top. - -Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in -proficiency be a pretty fair rating? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out -of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third -of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would -imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to -El Toro, you went by your own respective routes? - -Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago -together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I -continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another -marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from -Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. -And I want to say, it was Bandoni---- - -Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection? - -Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and -I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the -airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not -sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at -a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the -other fellows there. - -Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald? - -Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not. - -Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station---- - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the -intervening period, that is, this leave period? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was -stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned -Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect. - -Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas? - -Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this -is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I -don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was -under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say -Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted---- - -Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in -Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of -having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having -lived for a while in Texas? - -Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. -New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he -used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's -say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, -but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is -where he went. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when -I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August -draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It -was sometime in August, around the first of August. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th? - -Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro -approximately a month then? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there? - -Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a -replacement trainee. - -Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for -overseas. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher -authority? - -Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he -showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was -like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what -he was told and that was it. - -I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial -exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time? - -Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same -unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he -had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other -words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man -rather than Oswald the rabbit. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can -be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he -would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other -words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going -to let anybody else get what he could have. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that -you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period -of time that you were at El Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual -at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and -this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in -Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the -most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't -think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and -got in the July draft. - -Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a -different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to -start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and -again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late -off his leave, he took an extra week or something. - -It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains -there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he -took his leave in. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from El -Toro? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For overseas? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the -same ship. - -Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail? - -Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name -Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you? - -Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats -and Mike boats. - -Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat? - -Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts. - -Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for -loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while -we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the -21st of August, am I correct? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they -are not given to individuals as such. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, -what foreign port? - -Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama. - -Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. -Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the military base? - -Mr. POWERS. That we reported to? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. Atsugi. - -Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base? - -Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's -primary mission is a Navy base. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, -yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must -have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he---- - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these -taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald -appears in? - -Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a -class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it -shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated. - -I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or -anything like that. - -Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata -and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald -and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but -Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force--rather Marine -base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, -down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a -while and talk to him. - -And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that -was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he -would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. I-O-W-C---- - -Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I -think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me -that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I -possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football -trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling -season. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life -on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did -together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you -overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the -platoon or group to Oswald. - -Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting -to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank -associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, -you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was -brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of -the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, -and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were -some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can -remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was -quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not -real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much -proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe -play--usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to -8 hours, playing chess. - -Mr. JENNER. Four? - -Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point -where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little -bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get -violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased -when he would win. - -And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. -He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his -life. - -And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, -and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books -back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up -westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of -literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt -Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read -it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I -still have the book. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read? - -Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that -I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks -that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," -and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not -sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the -United States," and democracy, and books of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books? - -Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops--I'll use that for a lack of -a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where -they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up -and it was standard procedure, I assume. - -Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit? - -Mr. POWERS. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read -"Leaves of Grass"? - -Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but -this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something -that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug -store or something of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly -because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated -than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for -my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think -this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction -or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the -people that had more education than the average marine there. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? - -Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"? - -Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal? - -Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular -time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had -in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was -the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself -this way. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least -at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to -reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that -regard? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in -Mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than -other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. I can't -recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my -mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that -he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, -he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this -nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did -this to---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on -the trip over? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over? - -Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, -whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I -don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were---- - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either -something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of -this man during this period of time? - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, -was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the -Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of -the Marines, you might be good gangsters? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this -particular period of time or not, I'm not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement? - -Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably -parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think -it was--this was a common statement, but as I recall, he--he did say -this. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, -whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have -been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some -griping---- - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines? - -Mr. POWERS. This would be normal. - -Mr. JENNER. Or something similar? - -Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would -say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether -one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance -to it. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, what was your assignment? - -Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and -assigned to crews within this squadron. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that? - -Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at -Atsugi, Japan? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar -operator? - -Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost -total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played -football during the fall and during this period of time we would -play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the -Philippines, and I stayed in Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines? - -Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron -went down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, -probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, -and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then -out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that -time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January---- - -Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1? - -Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group. - -Mr. JENNER. About how many men? - -Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, -and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft -to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the -aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that? - -Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it -yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and -you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, -and turn 90 deg. right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to -speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in -range or where he could see it visually, and they took over. - -Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, -when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular -sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign -aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" -coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, -if it didn't have the identification system on. - -Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy---- - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in -the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in -Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have -the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they -used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft -straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft -after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew. - -Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually -looking for hot bogeys? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I -was playing football or---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football? - -Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics? - -Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes -went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out? - -Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, -in the Philippines? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was that? - -Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? - -Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines? - -Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point. - -Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation? - -Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They -were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and -then this--something---- - -Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, -somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a -particular period of time; and then there was another operation going -to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and -then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore -at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued -the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at -that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and -apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the -next operation. - -Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at -Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point? - -Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point -is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can -almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but -they were designated--Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay -was the landing area. - -Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared -either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, -and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where -he got that, and now you explained it for us. - -Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the -swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it. - -Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's -Cubi Point and Subic Bay. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They -were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was -for the aircraft. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier -that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when -you rejoined the squadron? - -Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my -particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people -that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them -were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States -somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the -Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to -death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the -scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm -and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun -which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns? - -Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing -that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning -against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there--you don't know what the official finding was -with respect to---- - -Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it? - -Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other -than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a guy -could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way -[indicating], and "boom," it went off. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there -any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in -that incident? - -Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all. - -Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald. - -Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use -of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the -chamber free of slugs? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure--again I can't say for sure, but it seems -to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it -seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or -supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in -other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your -chamber itself should be kept free. - -Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to -click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as -happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with -your radar scanning assignment? - -Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned -personnel do it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to -guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this happened again, I think, after the rest of -the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us -were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were -two of us, or three of us from the squadron. - -Mr. JENNER. Who were they? - -Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private--Private, -First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who -the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and -at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as -it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 -aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which -Oswald was included in, for the mainland. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the -mainland? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot? - -Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, -so he must have been there; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection -with these special airplanes of which you now speak? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, -what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the -site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that -the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went -up. I think this is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were -shipped to Corregidor? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew -in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where -they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we -went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or -6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they -dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and -then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to -Corregidor? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor? - -Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division -in the operation of military exercises. - -Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi -Point? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated -aircraft, scanning for it. - -Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald? - -Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind -about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I -have a picture of it in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that -he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess -duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he? - -Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are -assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out -of the year. - -Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months? - -Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from -Corregidor? - -Mr. POWERS. LST. - -Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your -recollection? - -Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March -period. - -Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but -Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind -at Cubi Point. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do--did you return then to Atsugi? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. About when? - -Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1958? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958. - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there? - -Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it -was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot -himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which -part of the body it was. - -Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow. - -Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was -in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening -that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your information and what is still your -information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot. - -Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it -or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I -recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, -and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a -concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure. - -They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually -court-martialed then, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon? - -Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a -Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if -any? - -Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed -up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I -think this was the feeling of the group at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going -to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of -the squadron with respect to him---- - -Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to---- - -Mr. JENNER. During this period of time? - -Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual -held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an -overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of -the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period -that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never -went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum -that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, -and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the -Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in -a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance -sometimes. - -Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during -this period? - -Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, -because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall -that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the -other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to -get out of the service? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you -recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I -want to recall it or something that is actually fact. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully. - -Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure -speculation? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that -because he had the unregistered or private weapon? - -Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is -maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a -court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is -something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now -that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to -recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the -tendency to recall something that---- - -Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else. - -Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me -that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had -been given some psychiatric attention? - -Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in -the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm -not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing? - -Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to -substantiate it or anything of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves? - -Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was -after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and -set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this -was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement -that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, -I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement -to him again. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is -that what you mean? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the -practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the -ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he -did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said -that somewhere? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally -attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he -wanted to stay in that particular country. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as -soon stay in Japan? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you -were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or -on weekends, you would have liberty? - -Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base -at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, -and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, -and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against -you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the -sergeant on duty and went on liberty. - -Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty? - -Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day. - -Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends? - -Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty -weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month. - -Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Per month? - -Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of -the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get? - -Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the -Philippines, Operation Strong Back? - -Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that? - -Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play -football; I don't remember what that was. - -Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back? - -Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he -was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in -Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the -ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there. - -Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you? - -Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across---- - -Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with -Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result -of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol? - -Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came -after I left Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en -route most of June. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to -him? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks -that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you -recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for -an extension of his stay in Japan? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because -a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again -attached any significance to it. - -Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he -did or not, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities? - -Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation -maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at -least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just -went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was -it. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular -connection? - -Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was -limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, -Ozzie." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language? - -Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book -or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian -or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to -the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I -relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in -Japan, but I'm not sure, though. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian -language as such? - -Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no. - -Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language? - -Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have -any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just -brief glimpses. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with -him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a -noncommissioned officer? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. -It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, -maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came -out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he -had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at -somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of -proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any -time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious -offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant? - -Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I -think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant -before I left to come home, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation -that he was not an aggressive person? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to -coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a -little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that -you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not -from close relationships with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand -up for his own rights? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the -States? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too -scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine -Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of -training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective -appraisal during that first 9 months. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party? - -Mr. POWERS. None that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles? - -Mr. POWERS. None that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines? - -Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your -presence? - -Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or -to any issues that I would recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you? - -Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine -Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other -marines? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any -other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie -in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. -But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other -individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did -have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to -authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him -that he would flare up once in a while. - -Mr. JENNER. He would? - -Mr. POWERS. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident---- - -Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back---- - -Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I -recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming -out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say -that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him -would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could -give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he -would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you -knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this -only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him -authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he -would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it. - -Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached -the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, -but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any -conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there -anything mentioned about his being in Chicago? - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee? - -Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack -Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard -that name associated with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself -by and large? - -Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be -sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty -at a different time. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated? - -Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's -just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling -good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication -with it---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in -Japan? - -Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other -individual in close relationship with the people that you are there -with. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible -relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by -name or---- - -Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee -Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type -of thing. I'm not sure what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of -him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that -he did have. - -Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines. - -Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say -there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere. - -Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as -an odd-ball? - -Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball -means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's -different. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different. - -Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the -normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he -was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want -to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, -that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry -because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this -goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident. - -And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, -this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell -right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it -just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an -impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps -tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't -fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine -Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed -to be. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined? - -Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite -side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent -than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I -wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent -than most of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say -"intelligence," education and the development of intelligence? - -Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better -developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the -time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects -appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group -or in the groups that he was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that -account? - -Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he -portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, -of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the -Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic -problems or school. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he -was? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't -think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but -all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and -the Browning automatic rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater? - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with -people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject -that he had? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had -the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there -and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would -say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that -was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I -asked you this--to keep by himself? - -Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself? - -Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself. - -Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that -because---- - -Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan -because he was not a member of your platoon? - -Mr. POWERS. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he -was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view? - -Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was -resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not -of the authority itself, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather -what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it -probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado? - -Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thornley? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall? - -Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of---- - -Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph. - -Mr. JENNER. Murray? - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Osborne? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Call? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Botelho? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any -time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing? - -Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there -any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present -about religion? - -Mr. POWERS. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's -full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. -Camarata? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably -recall. - -Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the -name of John E. Donovan? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now. - -Mr. POWERS. No. - -Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis? - -Mr. POWERS. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. -Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy. - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c. - -Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which -I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything -that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall -investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you -had contact with Oswald? - -Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. -I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running -around like him today that can be easily influenced. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you -find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right -to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you -wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also. - -Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why---- - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned---- - -Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter? - -Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN - -The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart -Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. -Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present. - - -Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely. - -The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members -of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to -investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of -President Kennedy. - -The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the -Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this -Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of -the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses. - -Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these -documents? - -Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading. - -Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? - -Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan. - -Mr. ELY. And where do you live? - -Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C. - -Mr. ELY. What is your occupation? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va. - -Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown -University. - -Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree? - -Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio. - -Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in -Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. ELY. For how long? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think. - -Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged? - -Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant. - -Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine -Corps? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown -University School of Foreign Service in 1956. - -Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree? - -Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service. - -Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here -because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the -background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were -both members of the Marine Corps. - -Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and -I will interrupt with questions. - -Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I -was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif. - -Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that -confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at -El Toro? - -Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I -believe, 5 miles removed. - -El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of -"LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that -in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a -radar base. - -In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training -officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came -into contact with Oswald. - -Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time? - -Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant. - -Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to -train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some -of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as -all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their -contemporaries and how to get along with them. - -I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on -foreign affairs. - -Mr. ELY. Who told you this? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had -served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some -court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't -know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually -knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my -crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine. - -Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the -relationship between you and Oswald. - -Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding -officer? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a -lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that -crew I was the officer in command. - -Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and -about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed -to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength. - -Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men -with whom you were in closest contact? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a -day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, -sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night -watch. - -During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. -Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion -to talk to him. - -Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of -the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man. - -Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all -the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. -Most of them I had served with in Japan. - -Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan? - -Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played -football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you -a common bond. - -Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much -higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are -interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in -working with them to talk with them about all subjects. - -You were constantly in communication with the center concerning -aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the -intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, -standing at the back of the radar room in off hours. - -I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well. - -Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had -mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there -is any point in going into that any further. - -Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you -thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms -of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald -specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or -would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General -Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being -there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the -center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes -he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the -board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air -Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning -up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions. - -Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a -sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as -they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business. - -He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got -people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always -appreciate. - -Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in -regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his -quarters or his rifle or his uniform? - -Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have -occasion to inspect them. - -But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I -don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out -that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in -that respect. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of -a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three -inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset -hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say -who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I -believe he was transferred to another hut. - -Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially---- - -Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy. - -Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description -of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference -to how he reacted to stress situations. - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency -arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to -myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status -of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the -obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an -obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he -did it, no matter what you told him. - -Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with -regard to his job? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable. - -Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think -that might be overstating the case in the other direction? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal. - -Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald -and his fellow enlisted men? - -Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes. - -Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing -with his peers? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For -better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is -interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get -another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He -read a great deal. - -Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed -to a Russian newspaper. - -Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was -one printed in the Russian language? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not. - -Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper. - -Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as -gospel--although---- - -Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a -Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this -presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the -international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers. - -Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know. - -Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper? - -Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he -took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove -it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his -contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could. - -Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its -ideological content? - -Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in -all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many -great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the -international situation. - -I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must -be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have -probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well -versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation. - -His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign -Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations -throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to -mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates -in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride -in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, -and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given -situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you -very much." - -As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?" - -In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about -that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia. - -And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there -is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more -knowledge than that man." - -And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is -that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the -field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international -political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better -informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international -affairs. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or -situations which he questioned officers about? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly. - -I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He -was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities -in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there -were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was -against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship. - -But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a -Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist. - -Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that -time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our -better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was -not an unpopular belief at that time. - -Mr. ELY. What did he say? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a -godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would -take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him -saying it to anyone else. - -Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military -career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone -whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do -you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, -or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody -interested in other things? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all -services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly -shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common -bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't -think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I -believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared -even that companionship with them consistently. - -Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were -associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual -caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared -Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one -interested in serious reading? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and -the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am -sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer---- - -Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel? - -Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy -fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her -out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested -enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related -to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she -referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and -can talk to her. - -Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn? - -Would that ring a bell? You don't remember? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell. - -Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could -tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his -personality? - -Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than -that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which -Oswald did extensive reading in? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. - -Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the -names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed -to you, have been a mistake? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some -philosophers. - -Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these -gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the -philosopher you see that it is taken out of context. - -I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. -But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew -the name, and that was it. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later -action. - -Mr. ELY. Hegel. - -Did he mention Marx? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, -but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support -anything in particular. - -Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who -interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political -philosophy? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages -other than Russian and English? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak -Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever -cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't -believe he had a command of Spanish. - -Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding -German at all? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out -of the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school -anywhere? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that -he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all -officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly -had the ability, if he had wanted to do it. - -There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I -believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to -attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and -the Secret Service. - -Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend -school in any foreign country? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had -turned up in Moscow. - -Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all -anywhere outside the country. - -Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me. - -Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently -that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so -suddenly. - -Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took -place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any -other country specifically with regard to injustices? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in -talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or -something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that -I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or -wherever I was talking with them about. - -But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the -extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned -that that was unjust. - -Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in -Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the -Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and -Central American family, and their regime as a family. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name? - -Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be -done about problems in Asia or Latin America? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, -particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent -such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in -positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the -Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed. - -Mr. ELY. This is his opinion? - -Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion. - -Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an -inordinate interest in competitive sports. - -Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I -believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make -calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say, -a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A -quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, -at any rate, he stopped playing. - -Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said. - -Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the -Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can -introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are -being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this. - -Were you the captain of this team? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a -gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in -the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And -Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that -time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been -out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and -was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember -him. - -Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all -through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent. - -Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I -think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had -a slender build. - -Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed -and agility? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough. - -Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be -a really good football player? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high -school in a good high school. - -Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, -although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated -to a normal degree. - -Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought -he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, -there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team -spirit. - -Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's -quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order. - -Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this -inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and -that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. -I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks -incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his -contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order. - -Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as -anybody else? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary. - -Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's -proficiency in firing the rifle? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at -that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If -he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, -I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training -officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men -in. - -Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a -rifle? - -Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine -Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are -reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you -can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the -score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen. - -I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he -had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume -that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times -out of 10. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the -weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite -difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards -distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what -is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target -you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO -or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not -impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no -reason to suspect that he did. - -Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to -know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, -and punch the target before the NCO got there? - -Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day. - -For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of -qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target -area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you -were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of -choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2," -and so on. So it would be most unusual. - -But I suppose it does happen. - -Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that -you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the -FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's -characterization? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be -disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very -respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious -to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing -with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and -Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar -that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He -could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper. - -But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. -And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on -foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an -interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, -could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking -about. - -Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs -because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask -questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a -person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident -to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more -intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself -was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that -he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, -whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and -was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone. - -Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of -NCOs and officers? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in -the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and -he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks -inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly -made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude. - -Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was -brighter than the officers he was talking to? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was -brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of -world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, -at least in facts. - -I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and -learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of -intelligence. - -Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any -trouble of a nature which would require administrative action? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall. - -Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline -stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald? - -Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was -rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that -time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers. - -Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange. - -Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when -she was with him? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share -any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international -affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have -known. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the -Marine Corps? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to -get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, -his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a -hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a -bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, -either. - -I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I -got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received -word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change -of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies. - -He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, -all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and -the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft -in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication -code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense -Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range -of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and -radar. - -If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have -told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly -could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally -with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been -able to recall them a month later, either. - -Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level -were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a -fairly widespread action? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other -squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously -between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. -These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond. - -And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or -whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to -be. - -Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter -of course? - -Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right. - -Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which -elicits the change? - -Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some -things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is -no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That -had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a -height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it -has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations. - -It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, -you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height. - -He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, -which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great -distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece -of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and -relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively -safe. He had been schooled on this. - -And that kind of stuff you cannot change. - -Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar -center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us. - -Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain -admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which -is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all -positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as -plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief. - -Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the -training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first -choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt. -Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where -Sergeant Brown is. - -Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on -active duty in the Marine Corps. - -Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief? - -Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If -one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was -senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his -work. - -Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I -think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he -could not handle. - -Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated -leadership qualities? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader. - -Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have -about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide -never to use him as a crew chief again? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief. - -Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was -in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any -offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning -transportation? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could, -including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I -believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him. - -Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did -not from anyone. - -Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help. - -Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge -through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just -word around the squadron. - -Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual -discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get -a discharge? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did -know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I -believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that -he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an -only son, and his mother needed help. - -Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be -termed mental instability? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field -of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they -might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when -anyone is solely interested in one given thing. - -Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly -angry, did he raise his voice? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become -passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in -trying to get you to see what he saw. - -Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms -of pounding the table, screaming? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically -worked up than people we talk with every day. - -Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any -more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he -was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most -guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to -clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, -et cetera. - -I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The -complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his -ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several -instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO -leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a -commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not. - -Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like -that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't -remember. These are things that have been suggested to us. - -Do you recall whether or not he played chess? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some -nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I -won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion -he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable -players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious -beliefs? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he---- - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God. - -Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all? - -Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you -were at Santa Ana? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights. - -Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you -particularly interested in girls. - -Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you -have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his -desires? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in -that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service -for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know -of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as -an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our -conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about -them. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall. - -Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor? - -Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not. - -Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times. - -Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed? - -Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect. - -Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you -remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would -suggest an interest in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. - -However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring -textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they -were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of -these books--I don't recall which one--but say, "Are you familiar with -this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask -about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he -did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in -an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you -what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international -economics. - -Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for? - -Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. What were they? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie. - -Mr. ELY. Anything else? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall. - -Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz. - -Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the -Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether---- - -Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now? - -Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right. - -Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, -but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international -economics, although they might well have been. - -Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was -common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, -or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date -or something. - -Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average -marine, or that he took fewer trips? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of -the ordinary in that respect. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at -Santa Ana? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors. - -Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me. - -Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything -to you? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That -spelling is strictly phonetic. - -Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and -in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with -a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't -ring a bell at all. - -Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on -which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and -Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the -personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and -see whether you think---- - -Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to -say which would be most---- - -Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them -individually. - -Do you remember a man named Thornley? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all. - -Mr. ELY. All right. - -How about a man named Lewis? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all. - -Mr. ELY. Botelho? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall -his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by -the nickname, normally enough, of Bo. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look -him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a -corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with. - -Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I would characterize Call as being modestly -intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but -in reference to his character concerning his intelligence. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He -was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators -to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And -Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very -dependable boy. - -Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald? - -Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life -than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; -Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same -crew with Oswald. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization -number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go -back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I -believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair -to say that all the men on the crew would know him? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew -so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in -the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different -light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day -he went home--whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area. - -Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers? - -Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him. - -Mr. ELY. Osborne? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with -us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually -lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew -him. - -Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant -Brown. - -Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I -think he is now Captain Trail. - -Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I -have already mentioned? - -Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow -named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock -Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area. - -Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred -Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him. - -Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I -don't know if he would remember Oswald or not. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to -drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on -a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not -swear to that. - -Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended -offpost bars or night clubs? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not. - -Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, -less? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of -President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail -told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan. - -Mr. ELY. But from your own---- - -Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he -drank to excess. - -Mr. ELY. But he did drink some? - -Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the -conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact. - -Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the -questions I have for you. - -Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to -figure out what sort of a man Oswald was? - -Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know -that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also -served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. -Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it. - -The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange -that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana. - -Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in -Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on -the phone a couple of times, passing through there. - -Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I -don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people -that were there at the same time. - -Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended -to ask you. - -Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, -or anything that sounded like that? - -Mr. DONOVAN. No. - -Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?" - -Mr. DONOVAN. No. - -Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf -of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time -and testimony. It has been very helpful. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC - -The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15 -p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by -Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ELY. Colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I do. - -Mr. ELY. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the -President's Commission investigating the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses -by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission -by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint -Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness -is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint -resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted -governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you -with these documents, is that correct? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is true. - -Mr. ELY. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each -witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in -and give testimony. - -You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that -notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here -indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement. - -Colonel FOLSOM. It is waived. - -Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. ELY. What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir? - -Colonel FOLSOM. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel -Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C. - -Mr. ELY. How long have you held this position? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Approximately 3 years. - -Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of an idea of your -background--what you did before you entered the Marine Corps? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I was a student. - -Mr. ELY. And how long have you been in the Marine Corps? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I entered active duty in the Marine Corps 5 August 1935. - -Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever -heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Could you tell us in what connection that was? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It was in connection with his record, which was -requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and -they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship, -and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge. - -Mr. ELY. I see. And that is the first time you had ever heard of him? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ELY. Did you ever meet the man? - -Colonel FOLSOM. No. - -Mr. ELY. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, -colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, -but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and -we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test -scores and things like that. - -Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition -Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is. - -(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 -for identification.) - -Colonel FOLSOM. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record -held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine. - -Mr. ELY. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you -have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the -upper right-hand corner. - -We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page -1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's -scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there -were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, 24 -October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment. - -Mr. ELY. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the -abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Pay entry base date. - -Mr. ELY. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has -been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost -due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. -In this instance it was days lost due to confinement. - -Mr. ELY. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class -swimmer. What does that stand for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Unqualified. - -Mr. ELY. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact -that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to -"SA" action. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Supervisory authority action in a court-martial. - -Mr. ELY. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us -generally what this page of the record is. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record -constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization -to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows -conduct and proficiency markings. - -Mr. ELY. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, -could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned? - -Colonel FOLSOM. The Marine Corps marks on a scale of from 0 to 5.0. - -Mr. ELY. 5.0 is the maximum grade? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. And what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? Is there no -minimum? - -Colonel FOLSOM. No; there is none as such, because the markings are -averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing -regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the -difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under -honorable conditions. - -Mr. ELY. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable -discharge would be? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I believe--was the question under honorable conditions? - -Mr. ELY. Well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge? - -Colonel FOLSOM. 4.0. - -Mr. ELY. All right. - -Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. -I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the -various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is -labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think -might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an -abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred -to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that -stands for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company, -Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time. - -Mr. ELY. Now, this would have been while he was---- - -Colonel FOLSOM. He joined on 4 May 1957. - -Mr. ELY. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air -Force Base. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; undergoing duty under instruction. - -Mr. ELY. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an -entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that -stand for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital -Yokosuka, Japan. - -Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated -"To Du" would mean return to duty? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is -abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That it was a semiannual marking. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that is abbreviated "To Cnfd." - -Colonel FOLSOM. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence -summary court-martial. - -Mr. ELY. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one -abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Duty under instruction. - -Mr. ELY. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which -I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could -you tell us what that stands for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. In this case he was a replacement trainee. - -Mr. ELY. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for -replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September -1957 is? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control -Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet -Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address -for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan. - -Mr. ELY. And what was the job that he performed? - -Colonel FOLSOM. He was an aviation electronics operator. - -Mr. ELY. All right. I think that with the help you have given us, -anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the -Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress -of Oswald's service. - -Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald -was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military -Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands -for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It is a basic MOS in aviation electronics, I believe. - -Mr. ELY. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit -which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of -that entry? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as -to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows -that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing -period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from -the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a -summary court-martial. - -Mr. ELY. Is there any way of evaluating his score of 113? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a -composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and -time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established -by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and -individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by -their local organizations. - -Mr. ELY. But the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to -time? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate--it is -controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill -the needs of the Marine Corps by--in the varying grades. - -Mr. ELY. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice -here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of -Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These -two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one -being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D" -designation. - -Can you explain what the difference is? - -Colonel FOLSOM. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is -provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It -is a dependency allotment. - -The "D" allotment, I believe, is an additional voluntary contribution. - -Mr. ELY. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to -send out of his pay? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of -Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some -of the abbreviations found in this record. - -Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1 -Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course. -Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship -qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The -"B" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are -fired. - -Mr. ELY. But both of these courses are such that one can record a score? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a -result of the scores. - -In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which -would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a -sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with -the abbreviation "MM" for marksman. - -When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is -a correct designation in accordance with the score fired. - -Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he -would have been still in basic training at San Diego? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what -the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It would have been 210. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for -sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which -you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -Mr. ELY. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45 -caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated -"FAM." That stands for familiarization? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. And that means that no scores---- - -Colonel FOLSOM. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the -people with the operation of the weapon. - -Mr. ELY. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it -correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the -next highest, and expert would be the highest category? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled -"Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see -hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses -taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he -was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these -two abbreviations? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in -aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force -Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and -warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks' -duration. - -Mr. ELY. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that -under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; it is an Air Force School. - -Mr. ELY. And do people from all branches of the service get trained -there? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; we have cross training with all the other services. - -Mr. ELY. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record -of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could -you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores -achieved by Oswald mean? - -Colonel FOLSOM. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant -General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation. - -Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that -he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates -"poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This, -again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor." - -Mr. ELY. This 4 means he got four more questions right than wrong? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses, -and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong. - -His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall -he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout. - -Mr. ELY. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of -classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into -the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was -composed of six examinations. - -Oswald's scores I see range from as low as 92 to as high as 125. - -Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, -and what Oswald's scores in each of them means? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. I will take this in sequence. - -The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral -II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories -throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest. - -The abbreviation "AC"--arithmetical computation--and the score Roman -numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class. - -"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that -he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area. - -"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he -was the bottom portion of the third group in this category. - -Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test -score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a -result of Oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman -III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107. - -Mr. ELY. Would you explain the one designated "RCT"? - -Colonel FOLSOM. The abbreviation "RCT" is--represents radio code test. -There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one -being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to -109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group -III. - -Mr. ELY. Which is the lowest group. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Which is the lowest. - -Mr. ELY. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary -court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial, -and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about -one sentence which to me seems to be in error. - -According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title -"Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of -Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be -suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner -vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be -remitted without further action." - -However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was -noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second -court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June -27, 1958." - -So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. -Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is -that the suspension of the sentence was vacated? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence -was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry. - -Mr. ELY. Right. - -So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and -we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence -was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated. - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -Mr. ELY. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was -court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the -sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the -sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the -first sentence. - -Mr. ELY. That is correct. Thank you. - -On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second -court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general -self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each -charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he -was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of" -Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and -that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found -not guilty? - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. - -Mr. ELY. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found -guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the -Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the -specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking -words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II, -which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military -Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty -on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff -noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him. - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which -is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958, -indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour -had been received and approved. - -Must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is -involved? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the -individual concerned. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer -than he was scheduled to have been over there? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been -approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958. - -Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for -this cancellation was? - -Colonel FOLSOM. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates -that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a -result of the disciplinary action. - -Mr. ELY. So we might guess that because this followed his second -court-martial, that was the reason? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; and it followed it very closely. - -Mr. ELY. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to -ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating -to one event. - -On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro -for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro -from Yuma. - -Is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went -to Yuma? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS, -El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense -exercise, the first one held during 1959. - -Mr. ELY. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that -might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in -the Marine Corps. - -It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career, -private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am -I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a -private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your -E-4 is a corporal? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. This is under the new rank structure. - -Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I -want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is -indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and -July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What -does that stand for? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Confined, serving sentence--it should be summary -court-martial, but let me look at the record. - -Mr. ELY. You mean there should be three "S's"? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a -special in here. - -Yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial. - -Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a -document relating to the high school level general educational -development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page -106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests, -and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile. - -However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was -tested were. Could you tell us what they are? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One, -English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences; -four, physical sciences; five, mathematics. - -Mr. ELY. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off -were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in -which it appears on the report. - -Mr. ELY. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald -received a rating of satisfactory? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory -or unsatisfactory. - -Mr. ELY. Right. - -Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the -lower right-hand corner. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "D" -with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory. - -Mr. ELY. So he could have received a higher rating than he did? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. - -Mr. ELY. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a -rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was -in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of -these numbers insofar as you can? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours -devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics, -two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and -54 on the second. - -The last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject. - -Twenty-five hours physics, score, 75 and 77. - -Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are -on a scale of 100? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume -they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score. - -Mr. ELY. I see. - -Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, -which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous -test carried out to three digits without the decimal point. - -Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This report was prepared on an -electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret. - -Mr. ELY. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the -individual scores. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Do you want to go through all of these? - -Mr. ELY. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have -explained the principle by which the scores are recorded. - -Colonel FOLSOM. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is -a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered -by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading -and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and -pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT". - -These are raw scores. - -Mr. ELY. The ones designated RV, AC, AR, and PA? - -Colonel FOLSOM. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which -converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification -test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery, -and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation -is quite close. - -The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column -indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine. - -Mr. ELY. All right. - -Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already -been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with -the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated -Exhibit 239. - -This exhibit is a photostatic copy. - -Could you tell us, Colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy? - -Colonel FOLSOM. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps -Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1. - -Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are -sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification. - -They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the -individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the -weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in -the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings -are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is, -he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the -same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may -require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired. - -Mr. ELY. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his -firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will -do well on his record firing? - -Colonel FOLSOM. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even -on the day that he fires for record. - -In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather -limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the -purpose for which it was designed. - -Mr. ELY. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, -assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning -the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at -200 yards slow fire--on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand -position---- - -Mr. ELY. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in -Oswald's scorebook? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Right--well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the -three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them--all 10 -shots within the four ring. - -Mr. ELY. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in -terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than -that if he were a good shot? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should -get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position. - -Mr. ELY. And what was his score? - -Colonel FOLSOM. Well, total shown on page 22 would be--he got a score -of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his -record book. - -On Wednesday, he got a score of 38, improved four points. - -Do you want to compute these? - -Mr. ELY. I don't see any point in doing this page by page. - -I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we -could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his -career he was not a particularly outstanding shot. - -Colonel FOLSOM. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates--as a -matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to -achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter. - -Mr. ELY. In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for -qualification? - -Colonel FOLSOM. I would say so. - -Mr. ELY. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony -that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are -ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you -about the ones that seemed most confusing to me. - -Can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the -record? - -Colonel FOLSOM. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There -are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic -copy contains everything that is in the original record. - -And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those -clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary -court-martial records. - -Mr. ELY. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention -during your testimony today? - -Colonel FOLSOM. No; I do not. - -Mr. ELY. All right. - -In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you -very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN - -The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on -May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John -Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. ELY. Will you stand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Please be seated. - -My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the -President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses -pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. -11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No. -137. - -Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a -copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the -rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony -from witnesses. - -Is it correct that I have provided you with copies of these documents? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes. - -Mr. ELY. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to -3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony. - -You were not given 3 days' notice. - -However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, -and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice -requirement. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. I do. - -Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Captain George Donabedian, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy. - -Mr. ELY. And what position exactly do you hold? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine -Corps, Washington, D.C. - -Mr. ELY. You are an M.D., is that correct? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. ELY. How long have you held the position of staff medical officer? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Since July 1959. - -Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever -heard of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. No; I had not. - -Mr. ELY. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us -some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald--in other -words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the -man. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Right. - -Mr. ELY. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled -"Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1." - -(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. -1" for identification.) - -Mr. ELY. Doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. This is taken from the health record of the marine. - -Mr. ELY. It is, in other words, a photostatic copy---- - -Captain DONABEDIAN. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each -military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance, -and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, -which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the -inoculations he receives. - -Mr. ELY. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper -right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document, -Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit -No. 1 runs from 132 through 171. - -Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147 -of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958. - -Could you explain it? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has -noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two -drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown -and very hard. Examination." - -Mr. ELY. The copy at that point becomes illegible. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave -him treatment with mineral oil. - -Mr. ELY. And what was the overall diagnosis? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Hemorrhoids was the diagnosis. - -Mr. ELY. And what did you say the treatment was? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. The treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository. - -Mr. ELY. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on -page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we -just referred, and that is the entry dated---- - -Captain DONABEDIAN. 10-6-57. "Urethritis acute. Nonvenereal." - -Mr. ELY. Before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of -10-10-58? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number -is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on -10-13-58. - -Mr. ELY. Do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, -or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and -the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding. - -Mr. ELY. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through -156 of this exhibit. - -I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has -urethral discharge." - -Mr. ELY. Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point---- - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Then they took a smear. - -Mr. ELY. What is the purpose of a smear? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, -the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present. - -And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A -culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the -sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that -particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug -of choice. - -On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the -outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," -which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear -taken. - -September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to -the lab for a smear. - -And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular -morphological resembling neisseria gonococci." - -Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which -causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this -germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to -prove this or disprove it. - -And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like -400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday -in the p.m., for a repeat smear." - -Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat -clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago." - -In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this -profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, -four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture. - -Then on September 22---- - -Mr. ELY. I believe the last item was September 20. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it -says "September 23" underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture." - -The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed -micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that -gives a dark-greenish color discharge. - -Mr. ELY. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the -culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can -we tell? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one. - -The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the 16th. - -Mr. ELY. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, -you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear -rather than a culture? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a -smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they -treat the patient for gonorrhea. - -Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue -chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times -a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given. -And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is. -Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given. - -On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took -a smear. And that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were -noted." - -The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much -heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To -repeat smear, 1 week." - -October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a -smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive -cocci." - -This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has -been doing heavy lifting recently." - -"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the -urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting -recently." - -October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave -him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day. - -No--"return in 5 days." - -They just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in 5 -days. - -"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram -positive cocci noted." - -The next date is hard to tell. Something--"qid for for 5 days." - -The next thing is hard to tell. - -Mr. ELY. All right. That entry is illegible. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list, -9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No. -0303. And in handwriting---- - -Mr. ELY. That is my handwriting, so we will disregard that. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present -illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging -sensation on urination. Past history--previous venereal disease. -Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn -discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative -intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling -gonorrhea." - -Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not -absolutely be certain. - -Mr. ELY. You mentioned that under this previous history column it -mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to -this time? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. At another time, in his past, whenever that would -be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't -notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the -service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different -kinds. - -Mr. ELY. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to -any prior case during his military career? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. No; except those that we reported within those -dates. - -Treatment was procaine penicillin, 900,000 units, intramuscularly for 3 -days. - -Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000 -units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units. - -Mr. ELY. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than -handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156 -is something of a summary. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and -discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for -statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have -been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and -observation. - -Mr. ELY. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony -as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a -typical case of gonorrhea? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; it does. - -Mr. ELY. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem -that he did have gonorrhea at this point? - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Right. - -Mr. ELY. These medical records also contain entries relating to the -gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber -pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are -self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, -Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he -was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into -at this point. - -Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his -medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned -which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal -marine's complaints. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which -many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other -infection, otitis media, in 1957. - -Mr. ELY. That reference appears at page 150. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. And they give him penicillin, 600,000 units, 5 days. - -I see nothing else. - -Mr. ELY. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping -to explain these records for us. - -Captain DONABEDIAN. Thank you. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO - -The following affidavit was executed by James Anthony Botelho on June -3, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA, - _County of San Benito, ss_: - -I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California, -being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957, -to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March -to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control -Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California. - -Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train -Castro's troops because of the money he would earn. - -I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his -discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless -spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with -others. - -Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe -he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that -Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions -like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines -kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him -up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as -"Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to -"American capitalist warmongers." - -At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is -that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in -the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised -when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia. - -Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either -unironed or sloppily ironed. - -As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I -went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa -Ana. - -Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what -sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have -some of the classical records we purchased together. I recall that he -particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played -chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player, -although he was better than I was. - -It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed -his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no -effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him" -in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This -surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was -likely to get better results from him by treating him politely. - -I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for -nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks. - -It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him; -for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana. -I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the -Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out." - -Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be -intoxicated. - -I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall -any remarks concerning his religious beliefs. - -I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I -believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason -unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of -his receiving any visitors. - -Signed this 3d day of June 1964, at San Juan Bautista, Calif. - - (S) James Anthony Botelho, - JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA - -The following affidavit was executed by Donald Peter Camarata on May -19, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA, - _County of Santa Cruz, ss_: - -I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California, -being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the -following military installations while we were both members of -the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, -Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana, -California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville, -Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in -the same unit at that time. - -While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald -was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name -written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian -songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks. - -Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my -return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some -way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal -knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of -this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one -person. - -Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines. -I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he -simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post. - -Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently -resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average -Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However, -he generally followed such orders. - -Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's -intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe -he was intelligent. - -I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian. -I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors--either -the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant--asked Oswald why he read this paper. - -I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish -or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or -Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women -on his part; or of his receiving any visitors. - -Oswald was nicknamed "Oz". - -Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at Santa Cruz, Calif. - - (S) Donald Peter Camarata, - DONALD PETER CAMARATA. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR - -The following affidavit was executed by Peter Francis Connor on May 22, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CONNECTICUT, - _County of New Haven, ss_: - -I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being -first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi, -Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he -was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he -wore an expert rifleman's medal. - -I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist -statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he -characterized as the greatest man in history. - -Although Oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a Robert -Demurs--I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was. - -Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did -they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of -his superiors with insolent remarks. - -I have no recollection to how much Oswald drank. - -I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal, -but I do not remember what sort of books he read. - -Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle -name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it. - -I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his -attitude toward women, or what he did off post. - -Signed this 22d day of May, 1964, at West Haven, Conn. - - (S) Peter Francis Connor, - PETER FRANCIS CONNOR. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF - -The following affidavit was executed by Allen D. Graf on June 15, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of Erie, ss_: - -I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first -duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961. -While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon -Sergeant. - -Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to -resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing -to listen to the views of others. - -Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald -concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He -explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the -depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to -eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a -premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around." - -Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or -opposing capitalism. - -It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because -he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the -Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly. - -Oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports. - -It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in -the "high expert" range. - -Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had -a temper--in check. - -I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of -where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious -beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any -dates. - -Signed this 15th day of June, 1964, at Buffalo, N.Y. - - (S) Allen D. Graf, - ALLEN D. GRAF. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL - -The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of New Orleans, ss_: - -I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, -being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, -until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to -rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of -authority. - -While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as -"Hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." -This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. -It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this -name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no -specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name. - -Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I -did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or -international affairs. - -While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming -intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care -whether or not he got back to the post on time. - -Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to -complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines. - -Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know -what his activities off post were. - -I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames. - -Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, -I am unable to remember Oswald's being there. - -Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La. - - (S) John Rene Heindel, - JOHN RENE HEINDEL. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on -May 15, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF FLORIDA, - _County of Duval, ss_: - -I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville -Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately -October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in -MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part -of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore -during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also -with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I -was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that -at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts. - -Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I -know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away -from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was -homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am -not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if -ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came -to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual. - -Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine -did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or -situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my -opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he--unlike Delgado--was -not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention. - -I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination -of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college -education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a -college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he -once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School. - -Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I -knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; -the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this. - -I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. -Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting -into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which -would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his -studying either Spanish or German. - -Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what -sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with -Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I -remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian -newspaper. - -Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his -being called "Oz". - -Signed this 15th day of May, 1964, at Duval County, Fla. - - (S) David Christie Murray, Jr., - DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL EDWARD MURPHY - -The following affidavit was executed by Paul Edward Murphy on May 16, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA, - _County of Orange, ss_: - -I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa -Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to -September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at -Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in -Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where -it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took -it to Corregidor. - -Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he -had received from superiors, but followed them. - -Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or -ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in -sympathy with Castro. - -One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining -cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot -locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened, -Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald -was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was -not authorized to possess. - -While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed -in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The -Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as -they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as -being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's -receiving other literature of a Socialist nature. - -I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was -overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or -German. - -Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average -in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however, -personally quite neat. - -Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament -was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, -but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight. - -It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a -great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books -he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific -recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I -remember that Oswald--like everyone else--watched Dick Clark's American -Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess. - -I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs. - -I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While -overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other -Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where -he went on those occasions when he did leave. - -Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which -was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname -for no reason other than that it was his middle name. - -I do not recall Oswald's receiving any visitors. - -Signed this 16th day of May, 1964, at Santa Ana, Calif. - - (S) Paul Edward Murphy, - PAUL EDWARD MURPHY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HENRY J. ROUSSEL, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Henry J. Roussel, Jr., on May -25, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Baton Rouge, ss_: - -I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge, -Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for -approximately three or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in -Santa Ana, California. - -On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen -Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working -for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in -order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's -study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with -Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to -studying Russian, Oswald had studied German. - -I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On -occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer -to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me--and, as far as I know, to my -fellow Marines--that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us -responded by calling _him_ "Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to -recordings of Russian songs. - -My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite -neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders -that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded -Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught -himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any -dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt. - -I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no -recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or -trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper, -and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.") -I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his -jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald. - -Signed this 25th day of May, 1964, at Baton Rouge, La. - - (S) Henry J. Roussel, Jr., - HENRY J. ROUSSEL, Jr. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MACK OSBORNE - -The following affidavit was executed by Mack Osborne on May 18, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS - _County of Lubbock, ss_: - -I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly -sworn, depose and say: - -That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine -Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey -Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him. - -Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his -free time reading papers printed in Russian--which I believe he bought -in Los Angeles--with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe -he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember -their names. - -I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other -men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement -to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him -famous. In retrospect, it is my belief--although he said nothing to -this effect--that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this -statement. - -Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did -the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow -Marines. - -My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability. -Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks -inspections. - -Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they -asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating -that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave -him alone. - -Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me -that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan, -he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. -I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I -remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as -of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan. - -I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not -recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. -Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines -sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he -took such accusations in fun. - -Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the -idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest -to others that he was. - -Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of -books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no -recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would -discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions. - -Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was -part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although -sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had -been to Los Angeles--implying that he had simply gone to break the -monotony. - -I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called -"Oswald" or--by those who knew him well--"Lee Harvey". - -I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors. - -Signed this 18th day of May, 1964, at Lubbock, Tex. - - (S) Mack Osborne, - MACK OSBORNE. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD DENNIS CALL - -The following affidavit was executed by Richard Dennis Call on May 20, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA - _County of Northampton, ss_: - -I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first -duly sworn, depose and say: - -That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September, -1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959, -I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than -Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the -acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to, -and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked -to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were -stationed together. - -It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never -talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what -he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was -just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends. - -Oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning Russian. - -Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he -read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of -time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were -of approximately equal ability. - -Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, -Oswald seldom, if ever, participated. - -During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many -members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed -to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of -Russian classical pieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would -play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?" -I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald -always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that -he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking -about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich." -However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to -the Soviet Union or Cuba. - -On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a -scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to -attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer. - -I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember -anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base -movie theatre. - -Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well -as the average radar operator. - -Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's -Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated. - -Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than -did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff -Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my -opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try -to hide his lack of enthusiasm. - -I have no recollection of Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. - -It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his -refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswald _wanted_ to -be thought of as intelligent. - -Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine -from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had -an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He -succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to -anger Delgado. - -Oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and Stoic. - -Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the -unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of -Oswald's receiving any visitors. - -Signed this 20th day of May, 1964, at Helltown, Pa. - - (S) Richard Dennis Call, - RICHARD DENNIS CALL. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ERWIN DONALD LEWIS - -The following affidavit was executed by Erwin Donald Lewis on June 6, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA - _Orange County, ss_: - -I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being -first duly sworn, depose and say: - -That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine -Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey -Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance. - -Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did -not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he -seldom left the base. - -It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he -could read, write, and speak Russian. - -I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I -heard--although of this I am not completely certain--that he had a -subscription to that publication. - -Signed this 6th day of June, 1964. - - (S) Erwin Donald Lewis, - ERWIN DONALD LEWIS. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARTIN ISAACS - -The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. -courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on -the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized -to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the -taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure -each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and -joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the -rules governing the taking of testimony. - -The Commission will provide you with a set of those documents. - -Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is -entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give -testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or -not, but---- - -Mr. ISAACS. They told me yesterday about it. It's quite all right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume -that you do wish to waive it. - -Mr. ISAACS. I waive, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, sir. - -We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which -you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family -upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962. - -Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you -state your full name for the record? - -Mr. ISAACS. Martin Isaacs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. ISAACS. 1669 Grand Avenue, Bronx, New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed at the present time? - -Mr. ISAACS. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center, -Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you so employed in June of 1962? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Isaacs? - -Mr. ISAACS. I was born in Hungary, December 12, 1904. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States? - -Mr. ISAACS. I was about 2 or 3 years old. I don't recall exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a citizen of this country? - -Mr. ISAACS. I am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents? - -Mr. ISAACS. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received -derivative citizenship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you employed by the department of welfare? - -Mr. ISAACS. Since May 12, 1934. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New -York; is that correct? - -Mr. ISAACS. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee -Harvey Oswald and his family? - -Mr. ISAACS. I do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the best recollection that you have -concerning that event? - -Mr. ISAACS. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family -was in the Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the -Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this. - -My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to -go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time. -He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to -ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would -be needed to help this family return to Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had been informed at that time that they desired to -return to Texas? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at -the moment--I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who -handled the family inside of our intake--told us that this family was -in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the -time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a -repatriated family. - -In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were -repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent -here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they -are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir? - -Mr. ISAACS. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who -was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic -circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself -there, and so they go--either they go directly to our Embassy in the -country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the -Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and -so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances -they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be -returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we -did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the -role that I played in this as I remember--using my memory here---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go -into that. - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family -was a repatriated family? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information -from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake -worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all -these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, -and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned. - -When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. -Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social -Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. -The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean -Elliott. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She is with the New York State Department---- - -Mr. ISAACS. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called -the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, -we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, -and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is -relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, -yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually -happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were. - -Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available -to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. -In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get -enough information in our application blank to show that there was a -brother--I believe it was Robert--who lived in Texas, and I made a -telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with -his wife--I don't remember her first name--and I told her that Mr. -Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to -Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this -cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived -already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately -said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this -money--I don't remember the amount that was involved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone -call? - -Mr. ISAACS. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it -in their presence. - -Now, when I got this information, and she told me--her name was also -Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say--she told me that this money -would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had -with Mr. Oswald. I--excuse me---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and -spoke to his wife? - -Mr. ISAACS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she told you that she would call her husband and find -out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back? - -Mr. ISAACS. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm -uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I -will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's -the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back. - -In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We -always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they -don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and -told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in -and told the Oswalds about this--Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak -English--at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to speak to her? - -Mr. ISAACS. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single -word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told -him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was -really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept -this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, -and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our -policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request -that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet -these expenses, if they can. - -Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the -money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our -decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our -office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and -asking for the money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had done this without telling him---- - -Mr. ISAACS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it? - -Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we -can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the -relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm -not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got -his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they -usually get about relatives. - -Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This -is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and -somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these -funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are -requesting to return to. - -Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us. - -Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the -administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what -we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. -Oswald herself. - -I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, -although I don't know just what had transpired between them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference? - -Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him. - -Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott -of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed -Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we -proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that -these funds have to be used for the family's return fare. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on -that subject yourself? - -Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him -was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we -were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after -Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used? - -Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I -did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some -hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could -be made for his return the next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York -overnight that night? - -Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that -the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I -believe it was. - -Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him -at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember -exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at -the hotel, as I recall it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, -Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall? - -Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I -believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated -or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that -in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee -Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the -next day, do you remember? - -Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall -that at all, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on -one day? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that -I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office? - -Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is -that correct? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, -Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York? - -Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn -from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is -that correct? - -Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his -return from Russia? - -Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection -with this matter? - -Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that -you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald -had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by -Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that -they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like -that to the FBI agent? - -Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this -is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated -around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with -Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that -Oswald had said that? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as -this to the intake worker when he came into the office? - -Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, -sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that -statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the -office, that Oswald---- - -Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as -I remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department -of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald -case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of -Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled -"History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a -clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and -I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, -so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document. - -Mr. ISAACS. Sure. - -(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked -Exhibit 1.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the -files provided by the New York City Welfare Department? - -Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared -at a time when a client appears in your office? - -Mr. ISAACS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. ISAACS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource -Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually -filled out by an applicant. - -Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it -not? - -Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource -consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that -receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants -further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, -but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each -place in the form, and we just filed this in our record. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records -of the resource consultant; is that right? - -Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" -as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, -1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. -Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification. - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. - -(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the -resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald -case? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of -Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum -from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, -supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, -relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and -family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the -memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the -same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom. - -(Witness complies.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott? - -Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State -Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize -that, do you not? - -Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you -yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact -that you had with him that you haven't told us about? - -Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was -different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, -which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited -bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always -request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because -she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get -involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and -we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal -Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all -expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring -it to the attention of the administrator. - -But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can -recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in -that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we -assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some -other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along -with their luggage, et cetera. - -The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking -his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior -of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office -that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she -brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child -and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To -feed the child? - -Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention -of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it -was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the -behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those? - -Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather -severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time. -He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the -decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't -get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They -accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they -are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this -case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, -and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that -he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the -administrator. - -Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume -because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary -to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our -section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we -used. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this -incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at -this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this -report? - -Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say -is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that -the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds -that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and -just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of -Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen -the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified -without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was -somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas. - -At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this -Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is -her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that -she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped -to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone -conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled -the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out -of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave -it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read -it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the -FBI. - -Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am -sorry to say that this is all I know about the case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the -Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon -and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. -It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has -cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We -appreciate it very much. - -ISAACS. We are only too happy to help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES - -The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on -March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to -tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mrs. BATES. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not? - -Mrs. BATES. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional--I have been. My -name is Pauline. - -Mr. JENNER. Pauline Virginia--isn't it? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Pauline Virginia Bates. - -Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff -for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized -by the Commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries -of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the -Commission. - -Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee -Rankin, general counsel for the Commission? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive -order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number -11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, -authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the -Rules of Procedure of the Commission? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed -papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and -circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the -assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, -and any contacts on your part with any of the parties. - -We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee -Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes -of his? - -Mrs. BATES. They weren't transcribed; they were copied. - -Mr. JENNER. You copied them? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed -them from longhand into typing? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were -written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so. - -Mrs. BATES. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag -paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could -find. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside now? - -Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession? - -Mrs. BATES. I'm a legal public stenographer. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer? - -Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth, 10 years--a little over 10 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And is there a difference between being a legal public -stenographer and a public stenographer? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth -that has legal training. - -Mr. JENNER. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public -stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law -work? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have -done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir--Forest Grove, Oreg. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area? - -Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November. - -Mr. JENNER. And you came from where? - -Mrs. BATES. Oakland, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your business or occupation when you were in -Oakland, Calif.? - -Mrs. BATES. Legal stenographer--legal secretary. - -Mr. JENNER. That has always been your--insofar as you have had a -business or occupation--it's been that? - -Mrs. BATES. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards. - -Mr. JENNER. Out on the coast? - -Mrs. BATES. Richmond. I have also been a waitress. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not -intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you -are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going -too far. - -Mrs. BATES. I don't have anything to hide. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I'm sure you don't. - -During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have -occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. BATES. He was known to me as Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so -we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the -person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand -to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that -acquaintanceship arose. - -Mrs. BATES. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my -name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one -in the public stenographers. - -Mr. JENNER. And how was he attired on that occasion? - -Mrs. BATES. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type -jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket. - -Mr. JENNER. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on? - -Mrs. BATES. No; didn't have a shirt on. - -Mr. JENNER. No shirt? - -Mrs. BATES. Just a little white T-shirt--undershirt. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. It was in June. - -Mr. JENNER. In June? What time of the day or night was it? - -Mrs. BATES. It was in the morning. Let's see--I turned those records -over to the FBI. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, give me your best recollection. - -Mrs. BATES. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on -the 18th of June 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. What was said by him and by you? - -Mrs. BATES. He asked if I could do some typing for him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself first? - -Mrs. BATES. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk -in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, -"Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was--that he was--then, he -told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what -your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you say? - -Mrs. BATES. I said it was either 2-1/2 an hour or a dollar a page. - -Mr. JENNER. A page being 8-1/2 by 11--letter-size sheets? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the -work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he -brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, I think it was -10 by 14 or something--one of those large ones. And he said, "I have -some notes here"---- - -Mr. JENNER. I have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that---- - -Mrs. BATES. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--but I'm holding this up only for size. - -Mrs. BATES. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little -wider. - -Mr. JENNER. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]--it's 15 -inches. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time -to, you know, send abstracts out in. - -Mr. JENNER. That's 15 by 9. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I am sure, as I remember it--of course, now, this was -some time ago--it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15--and it looks -like what I use. - -Mr. JENNER. And it had a flap on it? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are -Carrollton Clasp or something like that. - -He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I -looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?" - -He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these -notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin. - -Mr. JENNER. We fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He -said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are -handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil." - -He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em -because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." -So, we agreed that I would do it--but I hadn't seen them yet. - -Mr. JENNER. You hadn't seen the notes yet? - -Mrs. BATES. Huh-uh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. He had it with him. - -Mr. JENNER. What agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do -it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious -to get on it. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you become anxious to get on it? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had -notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he -had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I -thought he was just a kid. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school -students. - -And then I started asking him some questions--"Why did you go to -Russia?"--and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some -of em he wouldn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was -said on that occasion. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay. - -Mrs. BATES. We agreed that I would start typing the notes--and he -wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon--he -wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't want to leave---- - -Mrs. BATES. I couldn't keep a copy of anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you agree that you would do the job under those -circumstances? - -Mrs. BATES. That's what he wanted--and my customers are always right. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, -"It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?" - -And he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the Marine Corps -and had taken elementary Russian--a course in elementary Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mrs. BATES. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He -wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to -drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the -State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange -student--if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes--I didn't -know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that. - -He said, "No"--that the State Department finally agreed to let him go -over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa -to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him -in case he got in trouble or anything. - -So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that. - -And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought -out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even -this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large -pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten -in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when -he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working -conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. His writings were bitter against working conditions? - -Mrs. BATES. And living conditions. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say when he had prepared these notes? - -Mrs. BATES. Just whenever he could. - -Mr. JENNER. When in Russia? - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled -them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over -the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of -course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes? - -Mrs. BATES. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in -the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Were these 3 successive days? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he spend substantially all day with you? - -Mrs. BATES. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days. - -Mr. JENNER. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was -there? - -Mrs. BATES. I worked. And--uh--I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, -single-spaced. - -Mr. JENNER. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were -having some trouble interpreting these notes? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was -partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it--I mean, translate it -for me. And--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. A lot of it was -scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on -it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word -phonetically _surreptiously_], he just had to do it when Marina would -cover for him while he was doing this. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina would cover for him? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so -people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing. - -Mr. JENNER. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to -you, that he was making these notes? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch -for him so that nobody would know that he was making them. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. Kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing -this--because he could have got in trouble. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. He--well, there wasn't much time -to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. -And he was very cool and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Cool? You mean reserved? - -Mrs. BATES. Cold. - -Mr. JENNER. Cold? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Very matter of fact? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you -asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to -answer it, he'd just shut up. - -Mr. JENNER. He'd just ignore you? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, -I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by -the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have -lived out in that part of town." - -He said, "Arlington Heights." - -So--that's--that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing -else to say. In other words--"Just don't say anything more." - -And--uh--I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his -mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked -it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it -was too rich. - -Mr. JENNER. He said that she had become ill? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, -because they hadn't had enough food in a long time. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression was that they---- - -Mrs. BATES. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think, when---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he arrived June 12--so, he was only--when he reached -your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days. - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort -Worth papers which witness brought with her]. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I will in a moment. - -I want to get from you--what was his attitude toward Russia? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that -goes. But these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and -the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "Anything you -hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all -propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These -May Day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. -It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and -you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all -you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't -have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after -dark." - -And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once -mentioned the word "Communist." - -Mr. JENNER. Either in his notes or orally to you? - -Mrs. BATES. He just said "the party." - -Mr. JENNER. The Party? Those are the words he used--the expression, -rather? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because -there was always a party person around and he'd report you. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the -translation and the notes--to read them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to -become a citizen of Russia? - -Mrs. BATES. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said -that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a 2-year visa and, -of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted -to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go -ahead and we'll send her to you." - -"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again." - -So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so -much cain until they finally let him. - -Mr. JENNER. Raised cain with whom? - -Mrs. BATES. The Russians. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. He wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave -until they let her go. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the -Government of the United States? - -Mrs. BATES. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward -the United States? - -Mrs. BATES. No; I've thought and thought--and, of course, I've been -asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got -10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't -talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into -detail on them. Conversations--he had actual conversations that he had -had with different people over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, he had? - -Mrs. BATES. If you could find those notes, I tell you--they were -fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"--was what it was. And they were -coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. -I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence -according to city and dates and things like that. - -Mr. JENNER. How was his spelling? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, the English was fair. - -Mr. JENNER. The spelling? - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. He was an accurate speller? - -Mrs. BATES. Fair. - -Mr. JENNER. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was -misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But -there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but -it's---- - -Mr. JENNER. I am--when I have my secretary. - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah [laughter]. - -College students are notoriously bad spellers. - -Mr. JENNER. Particularly law students. - -Mrs. BATES. Well--no--particularly psychology majors. They're terrible! - -Mr. JENNER. Did you type all of his notes? - -Mrs. BATES. No; not even a third of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me that circumstance. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was--uh--quite -nervous. Uh--the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk -and--uh--if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, -he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting -to know where I was--and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, -"Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 -hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I -can't let you go on." - -And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of -them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he -could pay me. - -And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a -$10 bill out of his pocket and walked out. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or -did he take them back with him at night? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he -never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed--even the -carbon paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Even the carbon paper? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper. - -He did tell me that--I think it was the second day--that there was -a man in Fort Worth--and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've -scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--I just saw the -letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put -into book form--manuscript form. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your -recollection? - -Mrs. BATES. No. Uh--I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it -didn't register with me. - -Mr. JENNER. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer? - -Mrs. BATES. He said he was an engineer--he told me that. But there's -lots of engineers in---- - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. - -Mrs. BATES. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes -published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and -things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. -And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the -man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. -I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee told you that this other person---- - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh, this engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had -read all the notes. - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. -Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes." - -And the man could read and speak Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. That much he did tell me. - -And I just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real -nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to -say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never -showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes--uh--some. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. BATES. That--uh--she loved America and had wanted to come and that -she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and -stay. And that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and -the shops--and that New York had just astounded her. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. And Texas climate--uh--was really good for her. - -Mr. JENNER. The climate, you mean? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -And--uh--he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had -a child. - -Mr. JENNER. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned? - -Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I didn't know he had any. - -Mr. JENNER. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point -at which he had married Marina? - -Mrs. BATES. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression do you have as to the period of time in -Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, it was on Minsk and--uh--that one that starts with -"K"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he -was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could -get the time and get away from people. - -And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together -in just a few months. It was too detailed. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. I see. - -And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes? - -Mrs. BATES. About--from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, -really, because they were all sizes--the paper was. - -Mr. JENNER. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance? - -Mrs. BATES. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced -pages. - -Mr. JENNER. That was letter size? - -Mrs. BATES. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right. - -Mrs. BATES. I wish I could remember more about them but--uh--I think my -legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when -you're not suppose to remember things. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia -and the terrible working conditions. - -They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort -Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing]. - -Mr. JENNER. They are? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final -edition. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. But the text of the story is the same? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the -time? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, after I--uh--after he left, a short time afterward, -Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the Fort Worth Press? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and -talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, -"By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And -the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be -able to help him." - -So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave -me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. And they tried to contact him but couldn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Could not contact---- - -Mrs. BATES. Lee. - -I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something -like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he -was real worried about it, because he needed one. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help -him find a job. - -Mr. JENNER. And they were unable to contact him? - -Mrs. BATES. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home -several times--oh, I think, two or three times, she said--one of the -reporters did. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was this? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. In the summer of 1962? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; he was still out--I guess he was still out -there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused -assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that -the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had -just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could -have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until Caroline -called me. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh; that day? - -Mrs. BATES. That night of the assassination. - -And wondered, she said--I was out at my club--and she said, "Have you -seen any television or listened to any radios?" - -And I said, "No." - -She said, "Well, have you got a television there?" - -And I said, "Yes." - -She said, "Turn it on--and then call me back." - -So, I did. And there he was. - -Mr. JENNER. And the person you saw on television--this would be the -night of the assassination? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee -Oswald---- - -Mrs. BATES. Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of -June? - -Mrs. BATES. 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were firm in your recognition of that person? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone -would--you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew -that's who it was. - -That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was -perusing again]. - -Mr. JENNER. These first two pages? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and -talked with you? - -Mrs. BATES. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see--Thanksgiving was -the following week? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?" - -I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm -advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do." - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. Because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then -even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before -Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all -Wednesday afternoon and talked. So--it wasn't any spur of the moment -thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that. - -Mrs. BATES. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 -days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because -of all the things that happened since. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the interim. - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time -forward--that is, the 20th of June, 1962? - -Mrs. BATES. I saw him on the street twice after that. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. He didn't see me. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him? - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. -I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into -this--uh--variety store--Green's, or Grant's, I think it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him? - -Mrs. BATES. No; he was by himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Marina? - -Mrs. BATES. No; his mother called me. - -Mr. JENNER. When--after the assassination? - -Mrs. BATES. The day the story broke. - -Mr. JENNER. This story that you've shown me? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had -talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late." -She said, "That is not the property--that is my property." - -Mr. JENNER. What is her property? - -Mrs. BATES. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do -some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I -didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her." -She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I -said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late." - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever come out to see you? - -Mrs. BATES. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was the only conversation you ever had with her? - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah--uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound -document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits -and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The -President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be -some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. BATES. I was. - -Mr. JENNER. As you look at those documents--would you leaf through all -the pages I have mentioned? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard--oh! wait a -minute! wait a minute! - -Mr. JENNER. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether -that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that -material? - -Mrs. BATES. Right here. - -Mr. JENNER. As things that he had in his notes. - -Mrs. BATES. (Continuing to peruse notes) Metropole--uh-huh--Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now referring to page 149? - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. You see something that is familiar to you? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the -punched, ring book paper? - -Mrs. BATES. I believe some of them were. - -Mr. JENNER. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled -left-hand margin? - -Mrs. BATES. Every kind of paper imaginable. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of -that character? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; in pencil and pen. - -Mr. JENNER. In pencil and in pen? - -Mrs. BATES. His pen would run out and he would start in on pencil. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with -the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, -when you transcribed his notes for 3 days? - -Mrs. BATES. It looks very much--as I remember it--it looks very much -like it. - -[The witness points to a particular page.] - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems -particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of -U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--very definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. What about it awakens your recollection? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, as I remember, that's the way his notes started out. - -Mr. JENNER. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October -16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin -and Metropole Hotel"? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That is as I remember--as I can remember--and -that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they -started out--just like a story. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. BATES. A diary. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he take his notes with him, too, when he---- - -Mrs. BATES. Took everything. He wouldn't allow me to keep anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize -any other of the story type of thing? - -Mrs. BATES. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian--on -Russia--his trip to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it -would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes -deal with his subsequent residence in the United States? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And in New Orleans? - -Mrs. BATES. Yeah; which I knew nothing about. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred afterward, in any event. - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I -didn't hear of him afterwards. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press--front page story in -The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50, -final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and -which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence. - -Mrs. BATES. You may have it. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And that is the story---- - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff -writer, as you have described? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that story accurate as you related it to her? - -Mrs. BATES. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend -or correct? - -Mrs. BATES. No, sir. It was read to me before it was ever printed twice. - -Mr. JENNER. It is Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence. - -Mrs. BATES. And we did it very carefully to make it all--so we wouldn't -get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI on December 2, -1963? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; let's see, that was a Saturday, wasn't it--December 2? - -Mr. JENNER. [Referring to calendar] December 2 was a Monday. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, no; they came to my home on Saturday after the story -broke. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you twice? - -Mrs. BATES. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They -just--uh--I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over -to them. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Could it have been Saturday, the 30th of November? - -Mrs. BATES. It was the following Saturday after the story broke. -Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you -that the story was accurate---- - -Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir; gave him a copy of it. - -Mr. JENNER. In every detail, with one exception--which was that Lee -Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, that is not in the story. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mrs. BATES. That was what--the radio and television was trying to put -words in my mouth at that time. And--uh--I don't know how many times -I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I -stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten -a visa that I thought--it was just a thought--that maybe he was going -over under the auspices of the State Department--as a student or -something. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. From that, they got that he was a secret agent for the---- - -If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the -weekend. I had to get them to retract--according to the Associated -Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to -my house over the weekend and interviewed me--and I was on my way to -Washington Monday! - -Mr. JENNER. You mean, this past weekend? - -Mrs. BATES. Yes; The Star Telegram called me Monday---- - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. BATES. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you -are talking about." - -And they said, "Well, somebody has just jumped the gun." - -And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true. -And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people." - -Mr. JENNER. I think some one of the young men around here told me -that--but I put no stock in it, so---- - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a -telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody -could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well, -they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the -press. - -Mr. JENNER. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit -it one out of three times. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said -that I had gotten the letter--that they understood I had gotten the -letter and I would be called as a witness--and that was it. - -I told them--I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's -not true--and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything -like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were -putting all kinds of words in my mouth. - -Mr. JENNER. They hadn't talked to you at all? - -Mrs. BATES. Who? - -Mr. JENNER. The newspaper people over this weekend? - -Mrs. BATES. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill -with bursitis. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you were? - -Mrs. BATES. I've got it right now. It's about to drive me crazy. - -Mr. JENNER. That's pretty bad stuff. - -Mrs. BATES. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean, -that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and -the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the -morning--"Mrs. Bates, can't you add something?"--"Can't you remember -something else?"--"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock -answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth." - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. - -Mrs. BATES. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I -could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And -that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"--you can't -elaborate on the truth. - -Mr. JENNER. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you -think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked -you--insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned? - -Mrs. BATES. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have -to keep from giving impressions I've got now. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have to---- - -Mrs. BATES. I mean, disassociate the past and the present. I've got to. - -Mr. JENNER. That's right. - -Mrs. BATES. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I -have read--since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or -things like that. I don't believe in it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was -changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during -which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred -during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I -have failed to bring out--that's pertinent here? - -Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit -talking when she was changing the tape--except for a cigarette, or -something like that. - -I wish I could help you more. - -Mr. JENNER. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this -great mystery. - -Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your -deposition when it's been transcribed. - -Mrs. BATES. May I have a copy? - -Mr. JENNER. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to -make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have -the right to waive these privileges if you see fit. - -If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think, -be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you -will call in, if I'm not in--we expect to be here--but if I'm not in, -talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders. - -Mrs. BATES. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get -a'hold of Agent Howard? - -Mr. JENNER. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our -possession. - -Mrs. BATES. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the -one that brought me over and he's waiting for me. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, he is? - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, when you are driving back with Agent Howard---- - -Mrs. BATES. I'll tell him. - -Mr. JENNER. You tell Agent Howard to let you know when it is ready. - -Mrs. BATES. Okay. Because I don't have a car. - -Mr. JENNER. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I -probably won't think about it. - -Mrs. BATES. Would there be a possibility of having a copy of it? - -Mr. JENNER. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a -copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular -rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your -privilege. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom--he's a very prominent lawyer -over there--and he said he wanted a copy of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If -you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one. - -Mrs. BATES. Uh-uh. Well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy -to anybody--other than yourself. - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; of my deposition, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement -with the reporter. - -Mrs. BATES. I see what you mean. - -Mr. JENNER. But, you may not do so for somebody else. - -Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; but I mean I want it for my files up at the office. - -Mr. JENNER. And thank you for your time and your cooperation. - -Mrs. BATES. Well, I figured it might help. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MAX E. CLARK - -The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I -will place you under oath. - -(Complying.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. CLARK. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized -to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated -November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I -understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I -would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those -documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the -taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with -that letter, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARK. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, -your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited -contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called -Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to -some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De -Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, please? - -Mr. CLARK. Max E. Clark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are an attorney? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A member of the Bar of Texas? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Any other State? - -Mr. CLARK. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and -American Bar Association. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain your offices in Fort Worth, is that -correct? - -Mr. CLARK. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your home address? - -Mr. CLARK. 4312 Selkirk Drive West. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a member of the bar? - -Mr. CLARK. Since 1939--now I have to stop and think---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a -native-born American, Mr. Clark? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Texas? - -Mr. CLARK. No, I was born in Indiana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas, approximately? - -Mr. CLARK. In 1927. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state for us briefly your educational -background? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth, -graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the -University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of -Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her -parents were born in Russia, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARK. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her -mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia -but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England -because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of -Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up -to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met -him, approximately when? - -Mr. CLARK. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the -newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to -Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed -it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone -call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she -spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking -Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she -said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I -was at my office and we would either call--or we would call him that -weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday -following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl -spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well -call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe -is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald -and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our -house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient -for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid -no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did -he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter? - -Mr. CLARK. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she -would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the -offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living. -If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done -enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in -France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this -operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I -have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that. -When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of -September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact -with--there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth -that they communicate quite freely back and forth--stated that they had -met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time -and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to -Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this? - -Mr. CLARK. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've -forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife -was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that -the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met -this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and -she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did -not see him and then we had no further contact with them or even knew -about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this -Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live -with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and -was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the -child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and -went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't -know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it -was not going very well, their marriage, and so---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena -Hall; do you remember? - -Mr. CLARK. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know. -I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an -automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the -hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the -hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the -baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were they in the car at all? - -Mr. CLARK. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty -badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena -Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and -took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given -sedatives and--Elena Hall--and I don't know whether she knew any more -about it. I did not see her that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina see Elena Hall that night? - -Mr. CLARK. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the -hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this -Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during--from that period while Elena -was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and -buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she -could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get -food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her -to the grocery or take her food. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but -before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said -Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas -Employment Commission---- - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you -that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at -the Fort Worth Public Library? - -Mr. CLARK. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. -When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he -had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment -commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my -wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, -we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, -why, my wife--we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not -know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them -before we did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission -that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife? - -Mr. CLARK. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt -had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years -up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works -there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my -sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she -said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression -she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith -at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of -Smith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort -Worth, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment -Commission in Fort Worth? - -Mr. CLARK. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think -this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the -Gregorys first, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an -attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to -put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the -entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia. -I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the -exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife -provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you -have knowledge of those things? - -Mr. CLARK. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in -the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that -time, apparently there was--she bought her some groceries and I do -recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it -would exceed $10 or $15. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did -provide to Marina were these things you described? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she gave Marina any money? - -Mr. CLARK. I am sure she did not give her any cash; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on with your story now, please? - -Mr. CLARK. So, upon--when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would -see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that -week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner -one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment -and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we -would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that -she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into -town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday -afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over -there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the -first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there, -oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then -John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over -seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on -and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't -recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's -home while Elena was in the hospital? - -Mr. CLARK. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was -under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were -quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had -formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know -definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian -at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the impression that there had been -marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife -thought that? - -Mr. CLARK. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina -seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not -seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and -Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a -conversation with Oswald? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes, I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say and what did you say? - -Mr. CLARK. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in -Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and -why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at -great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point -with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald -the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his -opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, -"You know who I am?" when he would meet someone for the first time, so -he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked -him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he -had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he -was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines -and he would go to Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in -the Marines? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian -language while in the Marines? - -Mr. CLARK. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to -speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned -a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite -awhile before he left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or -whether this was private effort? - -Mr. CLARK. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or -less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the -Marines that he went--I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get -to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to -get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some -kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his -passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, -and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and -told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his -passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they -told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as -a Russian citizen? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a -length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured -a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said -because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment -with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little -better apartment than the normal working person there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he was sent to work? - -Mr. CLARK. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't -remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever -Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with -the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become -a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave -him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact -they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet -metal worker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. CLARK. I asked him what it was like working there and he said -the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps. -He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to -corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their -jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if -he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder -and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and -that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you -could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do -each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless -you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he -didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city--I -said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. -He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to -live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could -live and they assigned you an apartment and it might take 5 years -to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the -managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they -could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their -vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone -got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your -transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place -of employment down to the Black Sea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. CLARK. He said he was limited because he did not have the money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? - -Mr. CLARK. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying -that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had -your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main -things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, -shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he received any income from any -source other than his job? - -Mr. CLARK. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother -to get money to come back to the States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention receiving money from the Red Cross? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to -Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning -to the United States? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to -Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that -she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and -walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't -pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for -walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go -to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work -up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she -was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the -child but by putting in his application to return to the United States -somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his -permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never -returned to work after the birth of the child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high -cost of transportation? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article -recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures -in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked -him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera -in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you -go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't -afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the -transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said, -"Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but -only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down -there." He was quite unhappy about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath -while most of the other apartments had to share the bath? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said -most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor -have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, -would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the -hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share -that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be -a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those -apartments was his had a wash basin and private stove in there, small -apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to -use the communal kitchen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after -the baby was born? - -Mr. CLARK. That's what he indicated to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were -allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a -child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which -they were not required to work but other than that they worked the -whole time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the child when they went back to work? - -Mr. CLARK. He said they take it to special places that elderly -women--they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of -a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at -the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he -think this was a good thing or bad thing? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, he didn't seem quite--he just took it as a matter of -course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to -make on that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave -on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr. -Madland. Do you remember that? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This report indicates that you told them at that time -that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back -to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a -government nursery. - -Mr. CLARK. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when -the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5 -months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl -might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work -they were placed in a nursery. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition -with the particular case of the Oswalds. - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he -met and subsequently married his wife, Marina? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she -told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was -working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too -much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one -evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact -for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he -met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a -short time, they got married. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing -permission to marry her? - -Mr. CLARK. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission -to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a -flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late -to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush -to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be -hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and -arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual -to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she -started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your -friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American -and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it -couldn't be any worse." - -Mr. LIEBELER. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse -than the Soviet Union? - -Mr. CLARK. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite -happy to get out of there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the -reasons why she married Oswald? - -Mr. CLARK. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new -and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was--seemed -to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the -Soviet Union and return to the United States? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind -that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he -was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true -Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a -democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt -there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead -or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was -to leave so he made application to leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make -his mark" or is that just an expression of yours? - -Mr. CLARK. That is my expression but my general impression was he -wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life -ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea -that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what -particular circumstances he was in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the -fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the -impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this -fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I -am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what -you just spoke of? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted -to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he called attention to that fact to make himself -stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to -peoples' attention? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to -think it made him somebody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other examples of behavior on -Oswald's part? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't--he was -completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet -metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine -Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that -he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment -than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few -accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he -read very much and how much he had read. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mr. CLARK. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything -he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was -much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was -interested in sports and he wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or -Marxist organizations? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of -organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in -Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and -why he decided to come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining -permission to return to the United States? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and -Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked -him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I -made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I -wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he -said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was -unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is -what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at -the right time or hadn't approached the right person." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or -Marina any difficulty about them returning? - -Mr. CLARK. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not -renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in -your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did -turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did -not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back", -he said "They couldn't keep me out." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing -of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him -a citizen? - -Mr. CLARK. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused -to permit him to return? - -Mr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department -or Embassy or Moscow? - -Mr. CLARK. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He -just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an -arrogant-talking person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention specifically any government official, -President Kennedy, Governor Connally? - -Mr. CLARK. No one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his service in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine -Corps. He didn't like any part of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of -life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. CLARK. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet -Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether -they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be -five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put -you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one -place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He -said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of -places to live and assignment of apartments." - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable -discharge from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about it at that time? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mr. CLARK. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone -that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable -discharge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the -so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise -with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald; -whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have -anything to do with him? - -Mr. CLARK. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not -they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked -me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he -is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's -having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her, -she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her -because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and -they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and -kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her. -I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I -said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that -when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is -watching his movements or I would be very much surprised." - -Mr. LIEBELER. If they didn't---- - -Mr. CLARK. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly -where he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is -contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would -keep a record." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI? - -Mr. CLARK. Not before this happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI? - -Mr. CLARK. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in -security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became -acquainted with Earl Haley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of -this sort with De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I -don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, -I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De -Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I -received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know -him quite well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after -the assassination? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the -assassination? - -Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald -did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had -written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. -Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she -was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow -about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way? - -Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him -and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that -Oswald had done it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters? - -Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. -I know I got the last one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with -you, of course? - -Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go -back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would -appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I -will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters -and may want to make them part of this record. - -Mr. CLARK. Sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters -anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the -assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. CLARK. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not -think Oswald was the man who did it? - -Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not -believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. -He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. -He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, -actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an -explorer or pirate or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to -a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told -me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald -a real lashing about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was? - -Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of -January, sometime in the spring of 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and -Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't -think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and -Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, -the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald -and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I -know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, -the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or -27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Off record discussion.) - -Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party -at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that -took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on -after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort -Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and -quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of -Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him -like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid -another hand on her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party? - -Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I -think it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period -January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti? - -Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime. - -Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to -Pennsylvania or New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe. - -Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 -weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way -through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him -at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month -or maybe more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made -on the life of General Walker? - -Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that? - -Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him -shortly before he left for Haiti. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker -with De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked -politics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in -connection with the Walker attempt at that time? - -Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think -that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our -conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just -someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only -comment we had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty -to the United States? - -Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character -but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion -that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was -just a "patsy" in the thing? - -Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he -really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes -without even thinking; most of the time he does that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that -you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to -whether he was mentally unstable or not? - -Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just -thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or -anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in -the world was out of step but himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him? - -Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt -that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything -because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't -seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was -a completely shiftless individual. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby? - -Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did -not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two? - -Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the -first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some -place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to -Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that -he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have -committed? - -Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President -Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to -call attention to himself? - -Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because -he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or -other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about -Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any -more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you -think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what -you said, go right ahead. - -Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has -been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour -conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to -separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is -extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time -when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was -like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned -with what life was like in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already -testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms? - -Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated -he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't -recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't -interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have -registered on me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in -firearms to you at that time? - -Mr. CLARK. Not at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time? - -Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations -with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations -amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might -have been a Russian agent? - -Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and -Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the -ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and -couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than -those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" -just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. -The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to -the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to -be concerned about it because they felt the American government was -keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. -They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it -did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as -much as the ones that got out recently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based -primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in -getting out of Russia, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had -considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt -probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as -to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because -of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia? - -Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and -Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know -there's several others of the younger group that came over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? - -Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? - -Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know -is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray. - -Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in -Blossom, Tex. - -Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't -recall their name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald -might be an agent of the Soviet Union? - -Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination? - -Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he -got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that -they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by -the FBI? - -Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it? - -Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was -keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off -political issues or anything about the United States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very -much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE - -The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my -name is Wesley J. Liebeler. - -I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we -would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in -connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, -and anything you might know about the assassination or anything -shedding light on Oswald's motive. - -I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission -has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted -to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint -Resolution of Congress No. 137. - -I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which -you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission -governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony. - -Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked -you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written -notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice -since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go -ahead at this time? - -Mr. BOUHE. I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. - -Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, -or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance -before the Commission? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the -Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the -Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington. - -Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed? - -Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular -job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and -prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the -last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on -my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last -year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. For 9-1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of -a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want -to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the -well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, -but I was MacNaughton's personal employee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, -Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates -is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a -baptismal certificate showing February 11. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United -States. - -Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, -Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called -the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was -working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy. - -It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I -think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia. - -The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent -American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several -cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking -English, was an office boy. - -When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which -is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it -says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of -his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its -efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did -that lead to your coming to the United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors -which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, -including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, -Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my -supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office -closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport -to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river -separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at -night, and it was cold, and got out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen? - -Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the -United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years -for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. -I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did -there, which is not much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe. - -Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French -governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age -of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the -English governess, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to -the gymnasium, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, -but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us -Latin and Greek. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas? - -(Mr. Jenner entered the room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are -regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas -and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly -the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, -so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And -particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a -congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us -about that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I -appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I -would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process -of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely -only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married -people, married to Americans, and so on. - -So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have -come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950. - -In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came -to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, -native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian -Empire. - -By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have -been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, -and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and -that was the language. - -It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed -God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps -in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a -10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him. - -So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, -self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their -new homeland. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a -church congregation, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because -I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but -anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian -language was welcome. - -And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really. - -The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent -well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky. - -Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the -people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the -English language become useful members of the community and become -self-sufficient? - -Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a -job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn -English, because I have the great reliance on that. - -Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn -English? All I want to do is get a job." - -Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, -too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or -remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, -taking people by the hand and sticking them there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if -my information is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples? - -Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a -daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. -Mamantov? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere -around that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event. - -Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory -and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, -1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and -Mrs. Peter P. Gregory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son -of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of -Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was -invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not -come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. It was that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. Of course. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at -the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to -his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred -percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library -where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a -free class of the Russian language. - -Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland -Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he -told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they -exchanged a few talks. - -Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's -office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if -I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to -evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. -Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the -assassination? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the -testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth. - -Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 -bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the -book. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed -help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is -that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald -with his book? - -Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee -Oswald and his wife, Marina? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what -was said at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the -ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject -in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. -Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, -Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg. - -This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, -for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your -hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is -still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in -existence, or the herring fish market still smells. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that -time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album -of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book -Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. -Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, -and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the -last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I -was interested in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps? - -Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I -asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any -exchange of pleasantries on that subject. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad -and moved to Minsk? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other -time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. -Petersburg to Minsk? - -Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet -Union? - -Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit -your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back -over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as -to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your -discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we -will go back and pick up the other times when you met him. - -Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed -with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize -him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my -conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against -society. - -Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came -into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, -because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the -Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He -goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He -doesn't like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he -didn't like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football? - -Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned -from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald. - -Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job -that he had while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly -I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't -remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal -factory. - -But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic -aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet -Union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 -rubles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had -while he was in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked -him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?" - -Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent. - -I said, "What did you get as rent?" - -"Well, it was an old factory building." - -I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a -flimsy partition. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived? - -Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have -quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, -or did he appear to have better quarters? - -Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 -rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he -comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots -which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots? - -Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were -famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all -leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so -on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it -looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even -he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost? - -Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to -that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go -through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on? - -Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk -about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of -his rare occasions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter -Gregory? - -Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you -got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is -in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?" - -And that figure I remember distinctly. - -In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost -him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to -mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he -was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something -because there was not enough money left to buy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke -was all the money he received while he was in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must -have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that -correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, -"90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?" - -No answer. - -But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I -couldn't cross-examine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, -is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For -instance, he had a portable radio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone -and records. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost? - -Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly -don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it -and he said it is a most awful construction. - -But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought -there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing -qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. -And what she was earning, I do not know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting -club in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or -hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's -work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck." - -And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because -he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of -"duckys-duckys". - -Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to -describe duck? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in -Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun? - -Mr. BOUHE. There? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in -connection with his hunting trips? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his -trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can -remember? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting? - -Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no -reason to suspect his lying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when -he was in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the -Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of -the Soviet Government? - -Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much -as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or -heard him volunteer any such thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I -thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to -be brought up in the United States." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why -he wanted to come back to the United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the -fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the -Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was -hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America. - -And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third -hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald -just to get out of the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? - -Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the -reasons why Marina married Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. Only after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina -wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she -married Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one -of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like -to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina -liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and -this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just -itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me -if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet -Union while he was there? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or -three different occasions from Minsk? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of -them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy -in Moscow at some period of time to return. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training -while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or -received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that -subject. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he -was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time -to time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that -language? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression? - -Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not -perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in -the Soviet Union, approximately? - -Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the -Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald -before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort -Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be -about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that -period of time? Would you say it was good? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language, -considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I -would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any -special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet -Union? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good -old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke -French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some -from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn -the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his -language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or -from factory workers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the -Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her -education? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good -command of the language? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I -complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met -here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a -very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect. - -And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly -grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language. - -And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what -period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school -for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas -man--perhaps Bryn Mawr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the -name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a -young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls. - -And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced -her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or -does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. -What is in her soul, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of -Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about -that. - -Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the -judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the -assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments -or amplified them after the event of the assassination. - -But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as -you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about -December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since. - -It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without -investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who -they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at -the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, -and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a -great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism. - -Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have -to do whatever she could to get out. - -Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is -of the old school, but I don't know. - -And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which -presented itself in Minsk. - -So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal -was or is, I cannot guess even now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a -product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed -from her? - -Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific -words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet -regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, -which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her. - -Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your -opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination -occurred? - -Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of -exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events -without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed -in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is -good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I -do not volunteer as an expert. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, -as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of -marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's -confidence about those matters? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not I. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with -Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent? - -Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long -sessions together, just girls. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna -Meller and Anna Ray. - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I -saw or heard that she had a black eye. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One -Saturday several of us arrived at their house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about -anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" -Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with -Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or -something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see -Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's -party? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in -the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called -at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and -said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper -and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?" - -Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a -plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say -but "come over." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a -week? - -Mr. BOUHE. About a week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna -Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday -or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a -very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband, -Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum -Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring -her over for a week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it -is November? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs. -Ford. - -Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double -check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of -Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can -testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that -correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to -your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October -7, 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that -conversation? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or -first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were -at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a -Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs. -Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember -distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended, -wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another -job existed. - -The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in -Fort Worth? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did -say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian -lady--said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with -the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job." - -For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7. -That would be my guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation -with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And -to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess. -And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment -Commission, which he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there? - -Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there--not I, because I -didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs. -Cunningham? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you? - -Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph. D., a very kind man--he -said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little -baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their -feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job -in Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected -nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet -economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those -were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a -$1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"--those were my -very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable -any place." - -And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you. - -Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is -a standard statement I would ask anybody. - -And for 2 or 3--or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 -o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. -Bye." - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on -the telephone? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where---- - -Mr. BOUHE. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was -some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't -know what that means. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. BOUHE. YMCA on Ervay Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long he lived there? - -Mr. BOUHE. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from -about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a -Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know -myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, -but that I do know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the -YMCA? - -Mr. BOUHE. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, -"Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of -the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the -Carlton boarding house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he -had not lived there? - -Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed -that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the -name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a -bum steer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived -after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately -lived. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth? - -Mr. BOUHE. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that -he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others -because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to -him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. -Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the -FBI agent told me they proved that, or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the Oswald apartment at Elsbeth Street? - -Mr. BOUHE. I never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit their apartment at No. 215 Neely -Street? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never even knew where it was. Never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28, -1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the -Ford party. - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1 to December 28? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have -run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't -swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my -part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during that period of time, however? - -Mr. BOUHE. Once or twice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna -Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of -1962, would it not? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; that is right. That is right. - -Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I -told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had -lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not, -that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with -Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It must have been November because your recollection is -she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. That is a slip of the tongue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during the month of November 1962? - -Mr. BOUHE. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time -except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her -once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when -she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't around at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of -Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. -Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the -record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina -Oswald. - -Mr. BOUHE. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from -my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person -of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such. - -She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that -age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious -about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size -you would not think she would. - -And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald, -coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she -could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to -America." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that -you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great -actress. - -Mr. BOUHE. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at -this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. BOUHE. Maybe she is a superagent of some organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time -of the assassination? - -Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not. Never entered into my head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it has entered into your head since the -assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, after that, you think of anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you -observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have -conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina -left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is -almost incredible. - -American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it -took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I -think, both of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Asked who? - -Mr. BOUHE. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual -that they let you out. How did you do it?" - -It was a completely innocent question at that time. - -"Well, we just went to the right office." - -And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to -that effect in Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of -yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent -of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time -prior to the assassination. - -Mr. BOUHE. The majority of our Russian background colony having -suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10 -and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this -country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes -from Russia. - -Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a -Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the -man came to the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to -return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that -application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only -paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some -investigation. - -Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United -States, whether it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned -with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good -little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States. -That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some -odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money. - -At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to -dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney -friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am -sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of -days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words -to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, -apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think -these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to -you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions, -yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't -remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it -was mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember specifically who mentioned it? - -Mr. BOUHE. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't. -And I am not hiding anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan -P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were -there, were they not? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right; uninvited. - -Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of -whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent? - -Mr. BOUHE. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden -toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his -wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp -among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain -say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back -home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my -conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who -said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of -that conversation. - -At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple -of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except -maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if -I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her. - -Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so -to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, -apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before. - -Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you -know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. -Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came -finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. -"Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the -party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an -agent of the U.S.S.R.? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald -spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say -clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that man? - -Mr. BOUHE. Lev Aronson, chief first cello, Dallas Symphony Orchestra. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought -Oswald was an idiot? - -Mr. BOUHE. I am not a buddy-buddy of his. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't hear why Aronson thought Oswald was an -idiot? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at -the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at -that party? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not with Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of -people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day -after? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a -long time and I am almost sure I must have been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the -question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during -that period of time, was there not? - -Mr. BOUHE. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about -Oswald being a Russian agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any time during the period December 28 for the next -few days? - -Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned, -well, whether others talked, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear anybody talking about it? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not to my hearing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that Oswald was essentially a -mental case? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental -case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember using those words at any time during the -period December 28 and the few days following that day? - -Mr. BOUHE. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word -when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not -remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some -school and study to attempt to improve his ability? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? - -Mr. BOUHE. That was most probably the first week of October when he -moved here, October 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said to you in response? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. "What kind of school do they have?" - -And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board -of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their -skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to -make lampshades." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever went to Crozier Tech? - -Mr. BOUHE. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service -agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have -gone to, and I said we have only one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was Crozier Tech? - -Mr. BOUHE. That is called Dallas Evening Public School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or -magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment? - -Mr. BOUHE. American or Russian? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of any nature. - -Mr. BOUHE. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or -not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do -not know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you -was "Agitator" one of them? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about "Crocodile"? - -Mr. BOUHE. Unfortunately; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any others? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I think it is called "O-g-o-n-e-k." Means, "little -fire." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you -saw in Oswald's possession? - -Mr. BOUHE. Something about the sports, because you always could see a -Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a -periodical called "The Worker"? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never saw a copy in the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about "The Militant"? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never saw any such article, magazine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on -political subjects in Oswald's home? - -Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. BOUHE. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes -Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly -Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not -remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped -over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw -the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these -books were in his apartment? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you about them? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics with Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. American politics? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his -attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government? - -Mr. BOUHE. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man. -I did not touch any of these subjects. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or -three times that you saw him? - -Mr. BOUHE. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I -saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet -Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and -things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the -economic system of the U.S.S.R.? - -Mr. BOUHE. I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how did you know he was stuck on it? - -Mr. BOUHE. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, -"Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether -it is free rent or free medical care. - -For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some -place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out -but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." -Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to -Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. Not during the time I knew him; positively not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought -Russia was so good, why didn't he go back? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; I didn't, because I think he began to hate me very early. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. BOUHE. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have -enough to live nicely and help others if I wish. - -The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the -latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to -the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of -mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal -and if I know around the corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the -floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good. - -So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw -the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put -them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the -down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that -there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the -floor and all that. - -I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, -lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile -assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in -rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will -see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And -I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner -by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift -yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the -opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them." - -Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines, -no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia. -He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he -went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job -and they said what can you do--nothing. Where did you work last--Minsk. -Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So -this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in -this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see -it. - -When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because -they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, -and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I -did exactly that, as I saw it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate your efforts? - -Mr. BOUHE. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third -visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to -Marina and such--I even brought two shirts for him--not new, used, -and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his -displeasure over me. - -He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were -not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them -3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he -folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any." - -Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others -brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox -was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the -groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this -is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is -junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy groceries for the Oswalds at any time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how much? - -Mr. BOUHE. Ten dollars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the -Oswalds? - -Mr. BOUHE. $75. You can make a list, if you wish, because I want to -tell you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. BOUHE. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus -fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday. - -I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here -and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he -didn't give me any change. I remember that. - -Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid. -I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another -lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings, -we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her -measure moccasins without stockings. - -I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to -take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas -where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford -to go to the regular dentist. - -And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of -time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I -think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if De Mohrenschildt spent any money on -Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. I have no idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about any others, as far as you know? - -Mr. BOUHE. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in -clothes, used, not new, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who else gave such things to the Oswalds? - -Mr. BOUHE. Through me, I collected--Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs. -Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used -clothes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to -Dallas, did it? - -Mr. BOUHE. The clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the -dentist, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say the dental work was done after Oswald moved to -Dallas? - -Mr. BOUHE. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort -Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Until November 2d? - -Mr. BOUHE. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came, -I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth -rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, -and here those student guys just love to pull. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving -the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for -them? - -Mr. BOUHE. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I -don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed -there in October? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other financial contribution that -might have been made to the Oswalds during this period? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, let's say $20. I would say that is all, $75, more or -less. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his service in the -Marine Corps? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mr. BOUHE. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of -application blanks some place and you have to say about your military -service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would -say: "Put down honorable." - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the entire extent of your discussion? - -Mr. BOUHE. Right. He would freeze up like a clam. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss anything about Cuba with you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his -possession? - -Mr. BOUHE. Do not recall having seen anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not -Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he -get along with the Russian people? - -Mr. BOUHE. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful. -Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him. -I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something -like that." - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Marina said? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was her reaction to him when she met him in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. I remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that? - -Mr. BOUHE. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether -they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was -not a very talkative person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have the impression that as a general manner he was -not a popular person when he was in Russia? - -Mr. BOUHE. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind -of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with -whom he would be friendly. I could not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind? - -Mr. BOUHE. He changed so much, from an American, to Russia, and back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never seemed to be satisfied with anything? - -Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. Besides, not satisfied with any place. That is -the point. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S. -Government for delaying his return to the United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. In a casual remark, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. BOUHE. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get -on the horse." - -Mr. LIEBELER. The United States? - -Mr. BOUHE. "Damn them, I don't know why it took them so long." - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is all he said? - -Mr. BOUHE. All I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual -in the Government? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk -politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and -useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any -hostility against anybody in the Government, which I didn't hear -myself, I would say Governor Connally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? - -Mr. BOUHE. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in -Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where, -in the paper here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that -he wrote a letter to Governor Connally? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that only after reading it in the paper? - -Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would -say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he -had any hostility toward any individual in the Government? - -Mr. BOUHE. You mean as of the end of December, 1962? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading -this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the -letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the -time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the -injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the -period "as soon as possible." - -Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which -did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine -story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to -correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I -would say that it looks like a threat. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure -with Governor Connally? - -Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If he had any prior to the assassination? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand English when you first met her? - -Mr. BOUHE. She said no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that she could -understand English? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God, -you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or -something like that. - -"Oh, yes. I know I love you. Come kiss me quick, or something like -that." - -But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of -her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Gregory? - -Mr. BOUHE. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few -words in English." - -"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it did not appear to you that she understood English? - -Mr. BOUHE. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I -have talked with you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that you tried to teach her English? - -Mr. BOUHE. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad -provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in -the family there sometime. - -And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I -tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave -girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet -before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English." - -"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, -he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to -him. This is positively so." - -Well, I said, "Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?" - -"Well," she said, "let's try". - -Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University -of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home -from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some -Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in -English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that -system was to be short-lived. - -Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for -it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing -Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and -generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I -understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the -American society. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the -English language? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have -perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper -I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big -letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I -live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on -Wednesday. This is a tropical climate." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You sent those to Marina and asked her to study them? - -Mr. BOUHE. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the -dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which -she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were -living in Fort Worth at that time? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and -maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's. -I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, -is that right? - -Mr. BOUHE. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment, -she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and -I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see -what it should have been. - -And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because -a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said, -"Please take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live -in Fort Worth.'" - -Mr. LIEBELER. He had those lessons that you had sent to Marina? - -Mr. BOUHE. I don't know what he had. All I could hear was my own words, -because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostat -of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be a good student of English; is that -correct? - -Mr. BOUHE. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each. -She made a good headway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever come to your house to study Russian? - -Mr. BOUHE. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to -study English? - -Mr. BOUHE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In my previous question I meant English, to study at your -house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the -baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only time they were in your house? - -Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the -diaper---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina was never in your house in the absence of Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and -made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else -being there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that -regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina -Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am -an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his -smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that -I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was -jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody -else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" "Why I gave you $2 last -week; $2 you got." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the -attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have -given to Marina? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do not know about that? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably I -showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of -any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way? - -Mr. BOUHE. I don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard it from anybody else? - -Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear, and I am 60. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone -else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect? - -Mr. BOUHE. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer, -"Well, Lee is jealous of you." - -Mr. LIEBELER. She said that about you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because I bought groceries. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the -end of the fourth lesson? - -Mr. BOUHE. Sir, I wish I knew. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the answer to that question? - -Mr. BOUHE. Just a moment. I do not know the answer to that question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been -charged with the assassination of the President? - -Mr. BOUHE. You can say that again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why were you surprised? - -Mr. BOUHE. Because I happened to know the guy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was capable of doing such a -thing? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never up to that moment. Did not enter my mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that -respect? - -Mr. BOUHE. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an -individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place -under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist -thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to -whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that -he was dangerous in any respect? - -Mr. BOUHE. He liked to get into a fight, I heard and get beaten up, I -heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes; -he is a tough guy but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as assassinating the President or shooting -somebody, that's never occurred to you? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. BOUHE. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could -not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I -suspect yes--no, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you testified before that you knew George De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was a friend of Oswald's; was he not? - -Mr. BOUHE. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph. D., comes from an excellent -family back in the old country, married the right people, knows -everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here -with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you -invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing -suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted. - -When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October -or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I -just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble." - -By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of -that sort of stuff. - -George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you -are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg, -then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people." - -"All right, George, you carry the ball." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his -society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little -hoopla circus. - -So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one -day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that -period, that is almost an exaggeration. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and -attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described? - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised -any particular influence over Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and -the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to -tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday, -or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care--De -Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald would do that? - -Mr. BOUHE. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would -say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't -even say it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man, -and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs. -Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here. -I will ask you if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission -Exhibits 451, 453-456, WJL.] - -First of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the -same man? - -Mr. BOUHE. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember -seeing that man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. BOUHE. I would say no. Am I wrong? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think -that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. -I have no more questions that I want to ask, do you have anything else -that you think we ought to know before we finish? - -Let me ask you one more question. Did Oswald drink, as far as you know? - -Mr. BOUHE. Drink? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BOUHE. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple -of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass, -but do not know if it was ginger ale. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a strong drinker? - -Mr. BOUHE. Never saw or heard or smelled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our -attention that you think would help us in this matter? - -Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3 -days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything -else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in -touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at -that time. - -Mr. BOUHE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that occurs to you now? - -Mr. BOUHE. I cannot think of anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S. -attorney's office and we will make arrangements. - -Mr. BOUHE. Is that Mr. Sanders? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. BOUHE. I talked incessantly today. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he -can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no -further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this -time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is -anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the -court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for -the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In -other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple -of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that -everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while -the reporter was writing? - -Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must -say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I -cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and -will think of something, so don't hold it against me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You will think of something that we have not discussed? - -Mr. BOUHE. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret -Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia, -and I--by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately -appear in the paper? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; not as far as we know. You don't want any publicity? - -Mr. BOUHE. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am -fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; go ahead. - -Mr. BOUHE. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings -going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being -captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were -holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you -can see the---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in -connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER - -The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before -we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your -information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have -been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission -pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions -of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution -of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. -Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week -and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of -the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of -procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of -those documents with that letter? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. -Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as -a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in -October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have -concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the -assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right -hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are -about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mrs. MELLER. Anna N. Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Meller? - -Mrs. MELLER. 5930-1/2 LaVista Drive, Dallas 6. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mrs. MELLER. I was born in Russia in 1917. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what town in Russia were you born? - -Mrs. MELLER. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade -like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Russia is that in? - -Mrs. MELLER. It's first town in Russia, town after Ukraine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be in southern Russia then? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts -Russia after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ukraine? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, after Ukraine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now an American citizen? - -Mrs. MELLER. I am an American citizen since 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to the United States? - -Mrs. MELLER. As a refugee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mrs. MELLER. In January 11, 1952. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Russia? - -Mrs. MELLER. I left Russia around 1943. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In 1943? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You left Russia at the time the German Army retreated? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, the corps of Germans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to -Germany? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Russia did you go to Germany? - -Mrs. MELLER. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then -from Germany to United States. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Meller with you at that time? - -Mrs. MELLER. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short -before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the -dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met, -1946, I met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Off record comment.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by -the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free -will and go to Germany? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; I was taken by the Germans from Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with -the retreat of the German Army? - -Mrs. MELLER. Part of the retreat. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did the Germans take you from Russia; do you know? - -Mrs. MELLER. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on -the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is -inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself -as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and -all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and -worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger -because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital -was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger. -That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and -Germany. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you -wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct? - -Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia -in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those -regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would -raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we -could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of -something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English, Mrs. Meller? - -Mrs. MELLER. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to -United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit -more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good -vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I -forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the -United States? - -Mrs. MELLER. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names -they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in -north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several -go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about -Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but -never heard Dallas, and we---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to Dallas? - -Mrs. MELLER. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years -here and love it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you work now, Mrs. Meller? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, I work 11 years for Dallas Power & Light Co. as -draftsman. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As a draftsman? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have training in draftsmanship work? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be -architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all -examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my -diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my -dentistry examination but I get my diploma. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union -before you left? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I got my document but without final examination -of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in -drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or -architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested -in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it -and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't -possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education, -it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something -and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting -dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working -at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I -get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying. -When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay -very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and -doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because -modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I -went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course -in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States. -Since that time I love it and my job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does your husband work also? - -Mrs. MELLER. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11 -years or 12. I will say 12 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your husband also from Russia originally? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two -universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical -education. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and -his wife, Marina? - -Mrs. MELLER. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August -in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory--I, my -husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to -make something--we don't have a house here. We don't have car here. -We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place. -When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe -picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr. -Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at the time? - -Mrs. MELLER. I think it was wife from Peter Gregory, Mr. Gregory, his -son---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Paul Gregory? - -Mrs. MELLER. Paul Gregory, myself, and George Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening? - -Mrs. MELLER. It was a dinner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the evening? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the -conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at -which you met the Oswalds? - -Mrs. MELLER. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia -not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak -word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old, -baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just -were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and -if you had a job--Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee -Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not -speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against -United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes, -really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we -met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy -going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find -out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and -I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't -remember exactly or he was looking for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you carry on the conversation in English or in -Russian? - -Mrs. MELLER. In Russian more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was -not able to speak English? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word; -however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was his Russian grammatically correct? - -Mrs. MELLER. Pretty correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he learned Russian? - -Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody -asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took -English in school and studied very much at home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Russian you mean. - -Mrs. MELLER. Russian in school and studied at home very much with -himself as Marina said later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his command of the Russian language -was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had -spent in Russia? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely better than I would expect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in -Russia to learn Russian? - -Mrs. MELLER. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy -to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be -more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something, -he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said your first impression just was he appeared -mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you -came to that conclusion? - -Mrs. MELLER. Later on, when I saw him--I saw him two times or three -in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people -tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not -want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against -everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a -single word. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he did not want her to learn English? - -Mrs. MELLER. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to -speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to -Russia in the first place? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw -Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions -about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever -told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did -you next see Oswald? - -Mrs. MELLER. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina -Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, -probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work -somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably -close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in -work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought--always for -Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some -clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was -sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I -never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. -However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed -for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back -home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what -you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I -notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature -about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald? - -Mrs. MELLER. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something -like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books -from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was -real upset. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time that you saw him? - -Mrs. MELLER. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her -house. No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to -Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue -spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy -little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She -said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door -and hit my head here" and it was very blue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Around her eye? - -Mrs. MELLER. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was -very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt -always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not -very--didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went; -it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at -Peter Gregory's? - -Mrs. MELLER. At Gregory's and then one time at home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At your home? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; at their home where they lived, Marina and Oswald on -Mercedes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth; and that is the only place you ever saw -him? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George -Bouhe. We were always together--group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and -not going one person? - -Mrs. MELLER. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina -and Oswald somebody raise the question--I tried to remember who but I -couldn't--I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know, -George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said, -I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I -thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help -them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been -in the Soviet Union for a while? - -Mrs. MELLER. We could not understand why he stayed there and come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the -Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him? - -Mrs. MELLER. When somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go -to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed -to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let -him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in -my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like -this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then, -I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee -Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina -mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was his job in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort -Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was -looking for a job in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort -Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the -Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately, -and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other -things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends? - -Mrs. MELLER. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked -three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10 -to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three -pairs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For Marina? - -Mrs. MELLER. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had -sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake -of woman with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about -anything. We never saw he will be really---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Responsible? - -Mrs. MELLER. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that -feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain -trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much -for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought -up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw -Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like -husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward -Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange -but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see Lee Harvey buying -anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands, -baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to -house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about -$18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she -would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you, -she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young -mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was -wondering; baby was first. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries -for them? - -Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably -two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I -think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar -with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and -something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for -the child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the -baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears, -couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly -more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee -Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to -help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all -that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he go with Mr. Bouhe to get the playpen? - -Mrs. MELLER. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it -was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much -and I could not talk much to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar -because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you -understand that perhaps he had good reasons? - -Mrs. MELLER. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a -person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people. -He could not talk like--I see first time and anyway, to explain as much -as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had -always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very--not willing -to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the -milk for baby--"We don't need anything." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job -in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; no idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that -the United States had made to him? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and -that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American -Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was -making payments to the American Government? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he -mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think -it was not much at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just -confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her -clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing? - -Mrs. MELLER. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and -I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much -as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he--we -haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he -never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. If you are -in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to -help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who gave you the $5.00 to give to Marina? - -Mrs. MELLER. $5.00--my goodness! If I could remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it -from being counted twice. - -Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, I think it was Mrs. Steed---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you spell that? - -Mrs. MELLER. Steed [spelling], from oilman, wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina at any time that you knew -them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job Oswald had -while he was in Russia? - -Mrs. MELLER. Oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but, -something--how to explain--something that you have with machinery. I -mean something to fix like hard--just like hardware store, something -with those things. I think it was a dirty job. Not exactly locks but -some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, I think is -kind of work he did but I am very sorry I never was listening real good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid at the job? - -Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall; I just did not pay much attention. I know -he was having a pretty good room there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mrs. MELLER. That he was having good room and something--maybe I am not -right, sir, I am afraid to say, like $80 month. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Eighty rubles? - -Mrs. MELLER. Eighty rubles a month. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say or indicate he received help from the Red -Cross or any other phase of the Embassy? - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know any money he ever received in Russia -is from his job, is that correct? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I am not clear here because I may have heard -something and never paid much attention. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used -to go on in Russia? - -Mrs. MELLER. Something he said one time that he went with some Russian -boys, probably young people, hunting one time, I think he mentioned and -it was something like duckhunting, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, he said that he only -went on one hunting trip? - -Mrs. MELLER. I mean I heard him saying one time that, just sort -mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere I think as much as I -know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you or did Marina tell you about the -circumstances under which Marina and Lee met and became married in -Russia? - -Mrs. MELLER. Just far away rumors like I cannot imagine because I am -not clear with that. It is so far away and so unclear I am afraid to -let you know but in short, I think Marina said she met him at somewhere -at a dancing place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she had lived in Leningrad for -awhile? - -Mrs. MELLER. I think she was born there and lived some time and then -was in Minsk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved from Leningrad to Minsk? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; never asked much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the -United States? - -Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning -to the United States, that you remember? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; I will not say; it was mentioned Embassy and that -Embassy even decided to help with the money. That was all I think I -remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any dislike toward the State -Department or the Embassy because they delayed his return to the United -States? - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostility toward the U.S. -Government, that you can remember? - -Mrs. MELLER. I will not say. I just do not recall. He never said too -much is what I say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. MELLER. No, never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally? - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time -that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent? - -Mrs. MELLER. Not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in -ways. He was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. You -could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. He will -always say something against--some way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the impression as to whether Oswald was -well liked when he was in Russia or was he unpopular when he was in -Russia, do you know? - -Mrs. MELLER. My personal opinion, this person could never be friendly -with anybody, very friendly, I mean. He was such a person that you -never can come near even if you want to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to -why she married Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question--why she married Lee Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember what she said but I remember one sentence -which is even caught in my head that she said. She wished all her life -to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's -tired living not like a human living. She wanted to have piece of her -personal life and piece of her room just to her own. I remember her -expressing that very, very deeply. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, -after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that -Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she -wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain -Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call me and say that her -husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the -filling station and said the man--she did not have a penny of money, -and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me -if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I -even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to -Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain -period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 6 weeks, maybe -month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" -She said "In Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came -to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want -to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very much -space." I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help -poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like -that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay -let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said -"Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or -10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse -and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no -coat, no money, nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did -she have bruises? - -Mrs. MELLER. She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you -can see she was shaking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to be bruised? - -Mrs. MELLER. I will not say exactly but she was out of herself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be upset? - -Mrs. MELLER. Nervous, upset and looked like--she did not cry exactly -and at me now but looks like she cried--her eyes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing -about? - -Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not -remember asking really for what or something. I did not ask for -arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. I do -not think I went into detail. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Marina stay with you? - -Mrs. MELLER. Marina stay, I think 1 week, 5 days at my home, something -like Monday until Friday and Friday she went to another family by the -name of Mr. Ford, Mr. and Mrs. Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you any time during that week that she -stayed with you what she and Oswald had been arguing about and what -their difficulties were? - -Mrs. MELLER. No, no; she did not say much. She mention that her husband -could not find proper jobs. They don't want to take him or he could not -find; she did not know herself very much. You can see without speaking -word of English I do not know what he could come home and tell her; I -cannot imagine. She said Lee could not find job and they are in trouble -and she did not say much. By the way, she was so skinny to this time -and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not -feel good. She had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her I -decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take her to the doctor? - -Mrs. MELLER. So, I took her during this week she stay with me. I took -her to the G-y-n by the name Doctor Paul Wolff. - -Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f [spelling]? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, W-o-l-f-f [spelling]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f-f [spelling]. - -Mrs. MELLER. He give her examination and said in my presence, said -she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least 5 pounds -immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and -need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. She had bad -appetite. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you how long she had been living in -Dallas? - -Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember, sir, exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her saying anything about living in the -home of Elena Hall? - -Mrs. MELLER. Elena Hall; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that? - -Mrs. MELLER. That Mrs. Hall was very good to her and she stayed there -probably about 3 weeks if not more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in -Mrs. Hall's home? - -Mrs. MELLER. Can you repeat that question? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had -left Mrs. Hall's home? In other words, I want to know how long she had -been living in Dallas with Oswald. - -Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall her saying. But may I go back? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MELLER. It is time--thank you for remembering, helping me here. -It was the time between Fort Worth and our family and, in other words, -I think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in Fort Worth and -went to Dallas look for job. During this time Marina stay at Mrs. Hall -home for 3 or 4 weeks, if I am correct. It is not easy to remember, -really, and during this time we heard, I think he called on telephone -to us, Lee Harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him -with a job. In all time when we visited them in apartment in Fort -Worth and I heard from Marina that her husband may lose job pretty -soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just -like good soul, I say "You have to come to Dallas which is larger town -and maybe he find job." I did not say personally about George Bouhe -maybe he find job there, just mention in general. So he called and -ask if we can help him and again, as I repeat, for the sake of the -poor woman which could not speak word of English and her little baby, -I asked my husband. I was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job -for Lee Harvey in Dallas. Mr. Meller has a former friend with whom he -was working back at Harris but this time it was not Sanger-Harris. It -was just A. Harris store and he was working with certain Mrs. Helen -Cunningham. Later, Mrs. Cunningham left A. Harris and was working for -employment office in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Texas Employment Commission? - -Mrs. MELLER. Texas Employment Commission; so, I asked him and I said -"Your former friend, Mrs. Helen Cunningham, maybe she can find job for -him. Please ask her." He did not want to do it. He said just because I -ask him and begged him so much he called Mrs. Helen Cunningham; told -her we had a couple which arrived from Russia; she's Russian, and he -is American. They are not very long here and he is looking for job but -he made a note and he said, "Mrs. Cunningham, be careful and check him -because he came from Soviet Union." He said be careful so we would not -have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came -from Soviet Union and I do not know, however, we heard somebody mention -he was checked and Mrs. Cunningham said, "Don't worry, Mr. Meller; we -will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. He -came one time during this period without Marina for half hour to my -house. I give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for -jobs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at that time where he had been looking -for jobs? - -Mrs. MELLER. He will not mention exactly. He was sleeping; I think he -was staying YMCA this time, living there and looking for job. He said -he has little piece of paper and some notices there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Names on them? - -Mrs. MELLER. But he never go into detail, never, never, never. He will -mention but you will never find details out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any other place where Lee Oswald -stayed during this period other than the YMCA? - -Mrs. MELLER. Never hear and when Marina Oswald later called me at -night, I was speechless that she was already in Dallas and we did not -know a word and when she mention name where she--they were living, I -did not have address. I did not know where they were living, how long -they are; they did not say a thing but I took her home, over my house -for 5 days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's? - -Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long she stayed there? - -Mrs. MELLER. I believe 1 week, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she then go to the home of---- - -Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mr. and Mrs. Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? - -Mrs. MELLER. I tried remember first name--Frank Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it Thomas or Frank? - -Mrs. MELLER. Frank Ray; Frank Ray. I think Ray. Now, it was the last -time we saw Marina. By the way, I must apologize--coming back when she -was living at our home, we did not--she was separated with Lee Harvey -to this time. She went out from him. He never call to our home. He -never visited. We were working people. We will leave her with food at -my home and we will come back in the evening. Nobody call; she never -went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if George Bouhe -help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive -either. It was last time when I saw Marina Oswald and her girl who was -about 4 or 6 months, I think. She was not even sitting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember seeing Lee and Marina Oswald at a -party at the Fords? - -Mrs. MELLER. It was after I saw them at my house in December maybe. I -do not recall exactly day, 20 or 22 December; it was party at home of -Mr. and Mrs. Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been the 28th of December, after Christmas? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; it was 28th; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me us about that party, would you, please--who was -there; did Oswald come? - -Mrs. MELLER. Well, I do not know; it was probably over 20 people there -and as I heard, Marina and Oswald were not invited there at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? - -Mrs. MELLER. But were invited certain Mr. and Mrs. De---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. MELLER. De Mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and I heard from -the other people that the De Mohrenschildt's called to Mr. and Mrs. -Ford and asked if he can bring with him people, Marina and Oswald. They -are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he -brought them with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. MELLER. I did not see exactly walking in but I heard then that he -brought them there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald that night at all? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking, -cold, not very talkative. It was a certain Japanese girl, don't know -her name, he was all evening with this girl and Marina was left all -by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally -somebody play with piano, I see her sitting, trying to catch some songs -singing and I saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. I did -not remember seeing her and him together this evening. He was all time -with different girl which we met first time and I do not recognize her -name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen the Japanese girl since? - -Mrs. MELLER. Never saw before or after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how we can get her name? - -Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall name or anything, sir; I am very sorry. I -would like to help you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald that evening? - -Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember anything; my memory--don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald drink at the party at all; did you notice? - -Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember seeing him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever drank very much? - -Mrs. MELLER. Never saw him drink; do not recall. I saw Marina eating -pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. Some our friends notice -and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to -eat. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave the party? - -Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion about Oswald after he left -the party? Did you overhear any conversation about him and Marina? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; do not recall; I heard something from the people -talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my -goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name--Lev -Aronson, and I heard later that he talked to Lee Oswald and says that -he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought that? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; I did not talk to him. I heard that conversation, you -know, going with a group of people and it was just---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a party at your house some time following -the party at the Ford residence? - -Mrs. MELLER. After Ford party? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an open house on the day following? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; you mean 29 of December? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; approximately. - -Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or the next day--within a few days following the Ford -party? - -Mrs. MELLER. I could not recall really, but if I had, I never had -Oswalds over to my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Edward Harris from Georgetown, Tex.? - -Mrs. MELLER. Charles Edward Harris, yes; I met him one time or two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he at the Ford party; do you remember? - -Mrs. MELLER. I do not think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion as far as you can recall either -at the Ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of -time where the question of whether Lee Oswald was a Russian agent was -discussed? - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with anybody? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anybody discuss it? - -Mrs. MELLER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of -the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. MELLER. Could not say; can be but I cannot say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do not remember talking about that? - -Mrs. MELLER. No; we never talked about that; I remember exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us everything that you can remember -about your meetings with Oswald and Marina that you think the -Commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else? - -Mrs. MELLER. I am thinking and seems to be that's all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. MELLER. How long? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. MELLER. Oh, I know him about 6 years, probably; met him very -seldom and we were never friends, real close, never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he friendly with Oswald, do you know? - -Mrs. MELLER. Try to help, I think was--try to help as much as we -did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried -to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later -together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mrs. MELLER. I do not--if I say surprised or was shocked when President -Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I -could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my -vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out -it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of -my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it -could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you. -We could not believe at first at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were very surprised when you heard it was Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. MELLER. We could not believe he will do things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir; three times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three times? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir--oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service -another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name -but it was three times together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you -once? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the Dallas police force? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas police officers? - -Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible -for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think -it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her -fault, or what? - -Mrs. MELLER. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not -know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems -to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from -somebody that he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina -told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through -and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home -the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before -he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she -has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the -tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told you that? - -Mrs. MELLER. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do -not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that -something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat -her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at -anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time, -1962? - -Mrs. MELLER. No, never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right? - -Mrs. MELLER. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months -since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it -happened--when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New -Orleans and back to Dallas? - -Mrs. MELLER. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It -was the last time at Ford's family. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can -think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead. - -Mrs. MELLER. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I -did not forget anything. I do not think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I -want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down -and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it -very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you -very much. - -Mrs. MELLER. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL - -The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right -hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? - -Mrs. HALL. I sure do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert -Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission -investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. - -The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from -other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been -granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, -1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137. - -It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the -Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two -documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to -the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With that letter were included copies of those documents -referred to, isn't that correct? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you today about your knowledge of -Lee and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of -your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned -from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with -Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at -approximately Easter of 1963? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, will you state your full name for the -record? - -Mrs. HALL. Elena A. Hall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Mr. John R. Hall, isn't that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort -Worth, isn't that right? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born in Iran? In what town? - -Mrs. HALL. Tehran. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mrs. HALL. 1926. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents -were originally from Russia, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did they move to Tehran? - -Mrs. HALL. 1920 or 1921. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia had they lived prior to that time? - -Mrs. HALL. The last in Baku. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your -parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran? - -Mrs. HALL. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father -was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after -he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they eventually move to the United States? - -Mrs. HALL. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit -and went back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are they still living in Tehran? - -Mrs. HALL. No; both are dead. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Both are dead? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the -United States, if you would. - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I -knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and -have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States. - -My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me -that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I -can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to -New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So -he wanted--instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to the United States, Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. HALL. 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1957? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational -background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States? - -Mrs. HALL. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5 -years in Russian school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specialize in any special field during your -education? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a general education? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you married your husband in New York and -subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth---- - -Mrs. HALL. We were married in Fort Worth and I came here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were -first married in 19---- - -Mrs. HALL. 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again -in November of 1962, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife -Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of -your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go -right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the -Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you -as little as possible. - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at -that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our -house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you and your husband divorced at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do -something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him -that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do -with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to -$75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that, -so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was -sometime in July, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1962? - -Mrs. HALL. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were. -They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I -told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money. -And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in -this way I start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her -some clothes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Marina money from time to time? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her. -George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you money besides Mr. Bouhe? - -Mrs. HALL. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my -employer's wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is her first name? - -Mrs. HALL. Loraine Patterson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much money did she give you, do you remember? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. It was $10, or $15. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much did Bouhe give you? - -Mrs. HALL. Twenty dollars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is -that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in -Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else give you any money for the Oswalds? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I spent myself, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For them? - -Mrs. HALL. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I -bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries -until they moved to my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether -you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they -moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. HALL. My money or just general? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether. You said that you thought Bouhe had given you -$20? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been -$30 or $35? - -Mrs. HALL. I spent probably $25 or $30 myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be $50 to $60? - -Mrs. HALL. Something like that, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story. - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime -because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my -work. And then after they--I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he -decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move. - -And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with -the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't -you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and -then you can move?" So that's what they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas -looking for a job? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when Marina moved to your -house? - -Mrs. HALL. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly -when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you helped Marina move from the -apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you -borrowed? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the -moving? - -Mrs. HALL. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas -that night, that afternoon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that -helped you with the moving? - -Mrs. HALL. No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't very much to move? - -Mrs. HALL. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first -time when George went---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe? - -Mrs. HALL. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child -and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very -nice about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate what Mr. Bouhe was doing -for him? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In -fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't -remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all -kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee -came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw -in the kitchen---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was while Marina was living at your house? - -Mrs. HALL. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and -he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are -not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange -man, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you -purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child -except for what Mr. Bouhe brought? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, nobody else would do it. She was living in my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support -of the family at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer to contribute? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us about how long Marina lived in your house? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they -moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of -October and I stayed in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the -hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I -stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of -October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they -were gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know exactly when they moved out? - -Mrs. HALL. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with -Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital? - -Mrs. HALL. That--not that I know. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Marina? - -Mrs. HALL. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one -day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about -the past. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to -Dallas from Fort Worth? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I heard that he lived in YMCA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mrs. HALL. I heard from two friends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who particularly told you? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes, Mrs. Clark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Max Clark? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George -Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have -lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at -any time in Dallas? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She -borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought -a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I -bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the -sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's -parents lived in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband? - -Mrs. HALL. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second -time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them -after they moved from my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing -machine? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see her using it? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought -it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with -the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just -sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any clothes that Marina made with the sewing -machine? - -Mrs. HALL. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends -of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and -things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina know how to use the sewing machine? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her -sewing, but she said she could. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you -understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to -her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat -her all the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her? - -Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with -George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't -ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, -what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you -remember exactly when that was? - -Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, -is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it wasn't until October or November---- - -Mrs. HALL. October when she moved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a -result of her husband beating her, is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house, -did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told -her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd -better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better -financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't -know." - -And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If -you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And -she said, "No; I don't think so." - -She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever -will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did -not have normal sexual relations. - -Mrs. HALL. Very seldom. The thing that she told me, "Very seldom." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me everything that you can remember about that -subject that Marina told you. - -Mrs. HALL. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not -have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only -thing she told me. - -And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my -business, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that Marina said about that subject? - -Mrs. HALL. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her -to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would--was not very -much of a man in that sense? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. That is what she told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They very seldom had sexual relations? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with her any other -time? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were -getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your -house, other than what we have already talked about? - -Mrs. HALL. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him -about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That -is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't -like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. -John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I -ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of -everything, hot peppers." - -And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And -after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some -people like them and some don't." - -Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an -argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or -something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife -to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a -good wife? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48 -hours a day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble -because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so -on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald -in front of other people? - -Mrs. HALL. Who? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina making fun of Lee? - -Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes; she would do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any specific examples? - -Mrs. HALL. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He -is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that. -Not complete man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not -just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination -of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was. - -Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other -people, or was it a more general thing? - -Mrs. HALL. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I -asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more -about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if -there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely -Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your opinion? - -Mrs. HALL. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would -pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear them argue about politics? - -Mrs. HALL. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the -Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a -conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in -Russia?" - -And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the -restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would -get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on. -And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life -in Russia than Marina did? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a common thing for them to argue about? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions, -she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in -Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's -apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or -magazines that you saw? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the -downtown library, Fort Worth Library. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether these books related to particular -subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do remember that? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I -think. I don't remember any names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the specific names of any of the books? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian, Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Lee Oswald in Russian? - -Mrs. HALL. All the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian -language? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? - -Mrs. HALL. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could -read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him, -I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her -learn English?" - -And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't -need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English." - -And he said, "No, I won't." He never will talk English to her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also speak to Marina in Russian? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well -could she speak Russian? - -Mrs. HALL. Very well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was she better able to speak Russian than Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; of course. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the -Russian language? - -Mrs. HALL. Very good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it grammatically correct, would you say? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your own command of the Russian language good, would -you say? - -Mrs. HALL. I thought it was good, and I think it is good, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What language did you learn as a child? - -Mrs. HALL. Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that was the first language you spoke, is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school. -Then I was in Russian school again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also speak French? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your language in Iran? Iranian? - -Mrs. HALL. Armenian. And I think---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Turkish? - -Mrs. HALL. Turkish a little bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to speak to Marina Oswald in English? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach -her something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not -speak English at all? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the -conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't -understand all little things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July -of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could -understand at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I think it was the same thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went -on, is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her -books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was -sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and -sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all -that I know that she has of English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Peter Gregory? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his son, Paul? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I never met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of Paul Gregory to you? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Gary Taylor? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house--in -fact, I just came out from the hospital accident--this Gary Taylor and -his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort -Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of -George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of -his? - -Mrs. HALL. I saw him altogether maybe three or four times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to De Mohrenschildt about Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't think I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend -of Oswald's? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close -with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and -didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive an automobile? - -Mrs. HALL. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking -something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?" -And he said, "No". - -I said "How come?" - -He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school -can drive a car. How come you can't?" - -And he said, "Well, I just can't." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Oswald learning how to drive a car? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you -could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina -ever did get her teeth fixed? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe -made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she -came--and extracted them and came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be -done? - -Mrs. HALL. No; she did not tell me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who paid for it? - -Mrs. HALL. No. Maybe George Bouhe did, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Marina about -religion? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she -said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was -baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion -and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the -baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek -Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and -she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one -night, her and the baby, and we--I am a godmother of the child. And, -of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of -course, didn't like it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything, specifically that he said about -that? - -Mrs. HALL. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas--I asked her, -and she said, of course, he didn't like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you -went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Me, Marina, and the child--Lee---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time? -What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree, -no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?" -And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a -Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree." - -Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was -Christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a -commercialized holiday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband said in response to -that remark by Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at -Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to -Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and--we will -come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants, -she can go with you." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to -Church? - -Mrs. HALL. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't -believe in nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever go to church with you and your husband? - -Mrs. HALL. No; she never did go. Well, I never did see them after -Easter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know after Marina moved out of your house where -she went? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess they had an apartment at Elsbeth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth -Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved -around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went -to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a -couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment -on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after -she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in -Dallas? - -Mrs. HALL. I think they had an argument and she left one night and -she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is -everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just -hear things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any direct knowledge of that instance? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I mean I wasn't in touch with them at all, never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's -apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was -discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as -to what the conversation was? - -Mrs. HALL. With him? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; with him or with Marina. - -Mrs. HALL. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work. -And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for -himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business -for myself." - -And he said something about security, I don't have any security here -on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he -said something about Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how -long he was going to have his job? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you -don't have to worry about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate that he wanted to go to Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. No; well, he never did say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return -to the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but -she never did want to go back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I was telling her--she said the life is so bad there. -Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They -don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed -her--she don't have relatives--I think she has only, I mean she don't -have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss -them but I wouldn't like to go back and live." - -Mr. LIEBELER. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to -Russia; is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to -just get out from that place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get that impression? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I don't know, because I don't think she ever loved him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that -statement on? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were -married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she -never did like him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married -Oswald to come to the United States? - -Mrs. HALL. No; she never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to -whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States? - -Mrs. HALL. I think I mentioned to somebody. I don't remember who. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in -the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why -Marina married Oswald, or do you? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't know what they thought. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to -take a gift to the baby, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the -baby and yourself and your husband? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at -that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we -will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was any--was there any further conversation about -Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina -told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he -lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of -those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found -out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are -you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn. -"Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was -a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all -day and eat trout. Fish and eat." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was not working at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. No; he wasn't working. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he worked in Dallas when he had a job? - -Mrs. HALL. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know, -printing pictures or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, -all the conversation that occurred at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the last time you saw Lee Oswald, is that right? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to -New Orleans, Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. HALL. I didn't know it. I heard it again that they moved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? - -Mrs. HALL. I think Mrs. Max Clark. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband -about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think I mentioned to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said and what you said? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't think we said anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband told you when you -heard that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John, -thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to -New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of that conversation? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark, -because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes -more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We -don't see him very much, these Russian people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political conversations with Oswald? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to Oswald's political views? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that opinion? - -Mrs. HALL. That he is a Communist and nobody can change him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You formed that opinion because of books and literature -that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you -about him? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have -learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that -here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I -was raised in a very anti-Communist family. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't have much sympathy with Oswald's attitude? - -Mrs. HALL. No; none at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to -Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did she tell you that? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it -was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes -here in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of -these classes? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked -her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I -have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and -Rubenstein or Ruby? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about -his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had -never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they -live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found -this apartment in Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never mentioned Lee's mother to you at all? - -Mrs. HALL. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas, -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You later learned from reading the newspaper that -Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard Lee Oswald mention his mother at any -time? - -Mrs. HALL. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look, -or if he had something to read, he would read. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read quite a bit? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he -did with his time when he wasn't at work? - -Mrs. HALL. He was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had -other than his work? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at -the little pond in Dallas? - -Mrs. HALL. That is when he didn't have any job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Alexander Kleinlerer? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were -divorced. That was all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What? - -Mrs. HALL. I said, that was all he was coming, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that -you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York, -that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting -along? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when -I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got -married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this -Kleinlerer any more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since then? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about -what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone? - -Mrs. HALL. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to -grocery store, and sometimes she would take her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries -for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did -you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery -store, or something like that? What was it? - -Mrs. HALL. I didn't give her money that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did she get groceries during the time that you were -gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do -you know? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't know. Maybe Mrs. Clark or Mr. Kleinlerer paid for -her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But during the time that you and Marina both were living -at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did both you and Marina live in the house -together? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess 2 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you were actually together in the house? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact--that time -when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked -overtime at nights. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you doing work as a dental technician at that time? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these -various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the -reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you -present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had -in Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't -remember, really. I never did talk about this with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you -were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I -don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Marina worked, too? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income -when he was in Russia from any source other than his job? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he -received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I never heard of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on -when he was in Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. I don't know. He never did mention it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of -such a thing? - -Mrs. HALL. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we -were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their -possessions? You said that you moved them? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that -right? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia, -where she lived and what kind of things she did? - -Mrs. HALL. Not very much, really. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had been born in Leningrad? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved -to Minsk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they -returned to the United States? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, because I think he changed his mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any specific reasons that made him change his -mind? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave -Russia and come back to the United States together like they did? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; it was kind of strange. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else? - -Mrs. HALL. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the -papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean, -we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called -Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know. - -Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally -John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and -all the Russians told probably, it is okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian -people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the -Soviet Union and come back? - -Mrs. HALL. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him -over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking -to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you read in the paper after the -assassination, isn't that right? - -Mrs. HALL. No; I think it was in the paper at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When they came back from Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian -friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's -return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to -leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything -that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would -like to have it. - -Mrs. HALL. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we -thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these -people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a -Russian agent? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that -Oswald might be a Russian agent? - -Mrs. HALL. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one -thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--I don't -know how to express myself--person, that I never thought he could do -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Like shoot the President, you mean? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the -assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, -did it? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mrs. HALL. Very much so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it -then? - -Mrs. HALL. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, -after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you -hear? Lee Oswald--Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?" - -I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee -Oswald's name." - -And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was -Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian -group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you -ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government -for any reason? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long -time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to -return from Russia? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk -about President Kennedy in any way? - -Mrs. HILL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Governor Connally? - -Mrs. HALL. No; never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have -had with Mr. Nixon? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any -discussion about him? - -Mrs. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. -Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship -with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I -haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you -should add at this point? - -Mrs. HALL. I wish I knew more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think we pretty well covered everything? - -Mrs. HALL. Yes; that is all, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very -much, Mrs. Hall. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL - -The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you -solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? - -Mr. HALL. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member -of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your -testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of -Congress 137. - -Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of -procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I -believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would -contact you this week to take your testimony. - -Have you received copies of those documents? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever -knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts -that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union. - -Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would -you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just -he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any -difference? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that -you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name? - -Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? - -Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company? - -Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to -Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth? - -Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. -And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort -Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. HALL. 1928. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1928? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name? - -Mr. HALL. Elena Hall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall? - -Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently -divorced? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried? - -Mr. HALL. In November of 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? - -Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital -difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time. - -I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in -about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort -Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe -it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one -of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, -through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, -although Gali wasn't involved in this---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia? - -Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born -in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in -their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian. - -All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. -As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and -ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the -line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to -their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, -and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De -Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this -Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the -meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they -already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there -while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time? - -Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I -discussed this. - -That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here -in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me -that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and -dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George -Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was -on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we -would like to give this guy a job. - -It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the -personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray -Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job -through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time -being. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job -through the Texas Employment Commission? - -Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this -first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you -then meet Oswald? - -Mr. HALL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you -talked about? - -Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back -from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was -telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression. - -So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent -magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are -destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about -Russia. - -We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing -really important was said, that I can think of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia? - -Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by -his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and -getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at -that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and -this Taylor fellow. - -Do you mind if I smoke? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not. - -Go right ahead. - -Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any -detail? - -Mr. HALL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, -several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in -from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning. - -I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday -morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and -spent most of the day there. - -And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was -the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge. - -The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the -house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few -minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with -Marina, Thursday or Friday. - -Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I -was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital. - -Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our -house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and -Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and -ate with them. - -And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia -a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was -really led by Max. - -He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system -of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic -principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth. - -This was about all that was said there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia -in the first place? - -Mr. HALL. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they -were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I -only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a -discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up? - -Mr. HALL. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after--this was -the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came -back and we remarried November 17, I believe--we didn't see Oswald -again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for -the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems -like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church -at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on -Sunday afternoon. - -Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been -during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas -time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Oswald lived then? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff, -Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to -why he went to Russia? - -Mr. HALL. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real -strongly religious--I mean not to any extreme, but I have my -firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our -Christianity--I am a Baptist--I mentioned to Oswald--this is what -touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a Christmas tree. We -wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents, -probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have -a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that -he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, -and so forth. - -When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was -actually the first time I think that--this is the third time that I saw -him--I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when -he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything -specific--when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally. - -I might not have seemed that way--I didn't get mad or anything, but I -didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I -asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in -Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us. - -And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this -Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a book there? - -Mr. HALL. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian -literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he -had? - -Mr. HALL. No; I really don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. HALL. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he -didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to -come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right, -but I am not going to go." - -About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we -had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had -accomplished the purpose, so we left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons -why he went to Russia? - -Mr. HALL. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight. -I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the -system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along -down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as -could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in -his job and didn't like the whole setup." - -And I wondered why. And he said, "He didn't have security." - -And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work -and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it -seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and -learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would -be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of -life. - -And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was -real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he -told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United -States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where -his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that -everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the -reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as -he was just unhappy with all of our systems. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return -to Russia? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; and even at this time--in fact, I don't remember, I -don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go -back. - -And I know this to be real definite that--I don't know how you want -that--because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from -the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word -got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was -in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew -that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia. - -So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, -or told me directly--I think it was more directly, because I know at -that time he wanted to go back to Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so -many words? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told -her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his -way to Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at -Easter of 1963? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, -but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit -harder at that time than I had before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during -the time that he had previously been there? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working -in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about -the terrible expense of shoes and clothes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory? - -Mr. HALL. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really -don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't -remember what it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving -income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might -have gone on in Russia? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or -the use of firearms? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall? - -Mr. HALL. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we -met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just -about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about -it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn -English? - -Mr. HALL. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more -important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for -her to learn English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina -Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood -English? - -Mr. HALL. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she -could understand anything further than hello. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the -fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to -use English throughout that entire time, is that correct? - -Mr. HALL. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S. -Government for any reason that you can remember? - -Mr. HALL. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I -don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together -with Oswald, and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told -me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt--and we are just middle-income -people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were -true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in -the bedroom and one in the living room. - -This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like -electric can openers and things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social -system? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him say anything about President -Kennedy? - -Mr. HALL. Never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the -United States and leave Russia? - -Mr. HALL. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is -because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about -wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he -told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas -or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to -go back to Russia. - -And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia -about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I -wondered why. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about -it? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time -that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times -that you saw him? - -Mr. HALL. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he -was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use. - -And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings -for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave -my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help -her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they? - -Mr. HALL. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I -think there were several people. My wife would know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Gave clothes to Marina? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to -my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where -people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him -the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this -magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I -had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason -we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to -take her an Easter bunny. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly? - -Mr. HALL. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way? - -Mr. HALL. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on -it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no thoughts at the time before the -assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in -any respect, did you? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you really consider or question, or you just never -thought of it? - -Mr. HALL. Just never thought of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other thing that you might know -about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife -wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? -I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more -familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct? - -Mr. HALL. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like -Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald, -and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you -become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties -with their marriage? - -Mr. HALL. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I -don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that -he beat her up one time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up? - -Mr. HALL. I didn't; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having -marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs. -Hall's house in Fort Worth? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was -because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct? - -Mr. HALL. To give him a chance to get settled; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help the Oswalds move? - -Mr. HALL. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at -Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from -her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped -him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall when you went to New York? - -Mr. HALL. Well, we got back--we were married on the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of November? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that, -which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back -and--a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business, -and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and -we were married on the 17th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your -wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first -move into the house with your wife? - -Mr. HALL. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of -October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually -came back from New York--you see I came back a week earlier than she -did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New -York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since -she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part -of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know -what day, I don't think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you weren't there when she moved out? - -Mr. HALL. No; we were in New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was gone when you got back? - -Mr. HALL. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas -during the time his wife was living in your house? - -Mr. HALL. We understood--this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I -guess--that he was living at the YMCA. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to -the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct? - -Mr. HALL. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in -Dallas before taking that apartment? - -Mr. HALL. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from -Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address -on Neely Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. N-e-e-l-y? - -Mr. HALL. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it -was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them -or gave any money to Marina? - -Mr. HALL. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for -Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the -time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy -groceries for the Oswalds at other times? - -Mr. HALL. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and -George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery -Ward. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas? - -Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to -the Oswalds during that period of time, do you? - -Mr. HALL. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in -dollars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service? - -Mr. HALL. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military -service. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you might know about -Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think -the Commission should know? - -Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to -Mexico? - -Mr. HALL. Not to me; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to -anybody else? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been -arrested in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. HALL. Not at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't surprised? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? - -Mr. HALL. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and -said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in -our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on -the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes -later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were -sure it was Oswald, then all of us--I am talking about my wife and Mrs. -Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not -surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like -that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew -that knew him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed -during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and -if he did it, what his motive was? - -Mr. HALL. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I -actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way -he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If -he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done -something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely -out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this -is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this -book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so -set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't -have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I -was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, -was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a -chance to change his thinking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that these political attitudes of his were -somehow related to his involvement in the assassination? - -Mr. HALL. Say that again? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic -attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate -the President? Or were related to it? - -Mr. HALL. My--this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely -feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our -economic way of life by doing that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express -his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved -of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking? - -Mr. HALL. Exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition -for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally? - -Mr. HALL. No; I didn't think of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this -before the assassination? - -Mr. HALL. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in -that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your -mind prior to the assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. HALL. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He really didn't care what people thought about him? - -Mr. HALL. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really -believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy -if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia -and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was -looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, -no money problems, no rent problems--you see what I mean, just a -middle-of-the-roader. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be -excellent at things? - -Mr. HALL. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas -which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would -go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a -middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type -person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is -going to change him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any -discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was -possibly an agent of the Soviet Union. - -Mr. HALL. This came up after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no discussion about that prior to the -assassination, that you can remember? - -Mr. HALL. As an agent for Russia before, no, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the -assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent? - -Mr. HALL. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider the question after the assassination and -you did discuss it? - -Mr. HALL. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In -that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just -my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is -not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words, -he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He -couldn't take the orders. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of -authority, generally speaking? - -Mr. HALL. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he -must have had a lot of authority above him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was -resentful of authority? - -Mr. HALL. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He -was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just -resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge -him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or -anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just -our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can -remember, why he was resentful of it? - -Mr. HALL. Insecurity, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as jobs were concerned? - -Mr. HALL. Basically, that's right; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at -this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA) - -The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., -on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. -If you will rise and raise your right hand, please---- - -Mrs. RAY. Surely. (Complying.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to -give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mrs. RAY. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise -you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the -testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted -to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and -Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you -a letter last week? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With which he included copies of the Executive order---- - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules -of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony. - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You received the letter and copies of the documents? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically -with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a -result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, -I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you -would. - -Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Frank H. Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. RAY. I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ray? - -Mrs. RAY. In Stalino, Ukraine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mrs. RAY. June 9, 1927. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States? - -Mrs. RAY. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and -they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 -until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Germany? - -Mrs. RAY. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that -part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an -American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name? - -Mrs. RAY. Henry W. Bahlkow. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was a member of the U.S. Army? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, 36th Division and he was--I don't know what outfit at -the time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present -address if that help. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living in St. Louis? - -Mrs. RAY. No, Hicksville, Long Island? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his address? - -Mrs. RAY. I forget number--Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street--it would -be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an -electrical engineer over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were taken from Russia at the age of 14? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work for the Germans after that time? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal -education? - -Mrs. RAY. Let's say it stopped it completely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What formal educational background do you have? - -Mrs. RAY. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think--I -don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten -into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare -schools here to school over there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any formal education other than that? - -Mrs. RAY. When I came over here I went to International Institute in -St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went -to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington -University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen -papers and I became citizen 1949. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mrs. RAY. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of -1954; I remarried. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What does your present husband do? - -Mrs. RAY. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name -of Pollock and Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is located in Dallas? - -Mrs. RAY. 3508 Dickason. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina -Oswald? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could -come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been -staying at Mrs. Ford's house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina had? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see -if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to -have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with -baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure -about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since -I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved -her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that -Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me -if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come -out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my -husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest. - -He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some -kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in -the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime -so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and -she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so -my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an -apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't -see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or -4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my -neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed -about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there then? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable -because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out -of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these -clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't -seem to be ungrateful but looked like "We don't need it." He didn't -say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Lee did not thank you for the clothes? - -Mrs. RAY. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I -talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house -and talked with his wife---- - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment -prior to that time? - -Mrs. RAY. I got impression that they did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember how you got that impression? - -Mrs. RAY. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take -her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" -She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment -was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when -I talked to her on everything she described apartment--"I have living -room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"--so I am almost certain that is -the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He -just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with -her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's -and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea -where she has been. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the -Oswalds marital difficulties? - -Mrs. RAY. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; -he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry -for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English -and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that -he struck her or beat her up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what -reason for beating her up? - -Mrs. RAY. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since -she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't -like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you -leave--I am not that nosey. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to -Mrs. Ford's to pick her up? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard about her prior to that time? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a -new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I -am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very -much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been -almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was -very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on -now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why -Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were? - -Mrs. RAY. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at -all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina -left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the -clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's -house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to -talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's -place on Elsbeth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the -day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina---- - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; at my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your -recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation -was? - -Mrs. RAY. My talk with him mostly just on--what did I talk to him -about? I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just -sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did -get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. -He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made -all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something -about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some -things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for -him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation -in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not -know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband -just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his -life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this -country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the -world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little -to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian -or in English? - -Mrs. RAY. In Russian at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina could understand English? - -Mrs. RAY. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like -simple words like if I say bread or--I would say she did not understand -maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use -every day in the kitchen, not any English at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did -not try to teach Marina English? - -Mrs. RAY. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina -why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask -Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that -when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English -to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say in response to that? - -Mrs. RAY. I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all -time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald make any response to that? - -Mrs. RAY. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was -absolutely--you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get -answer. He did not say one word. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald drank at all? - -Mrs. RAY. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. -I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I -don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period -but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink -because he would have said I don't care for any today or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything more about the conversation -that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my -cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping -the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not -find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough -to discuss anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in -Russia, where she was born, where she was raised? - -Mrs. RAY. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember -where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by -her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or -aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and -the first time--like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to -so and so and by that time, it got to me--first I heard about was she -was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in -Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did Marina tell you that? - -Mrs. RAY. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I -understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived -with her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that -information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's? - -Mrs. RAY. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I -mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see -her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She -is the first Russian I met here in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New -Year's, 1962? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Oswald there? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some -hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much -surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said -"Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people. -He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to -spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there -is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, -it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how -is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and -I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; -somebody was talking care. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how Oswald came to the party? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; later on "Katya"---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]? - -Mrs. RAY. Katya told me--that is Mrs. Ford--George De Mohren--it's -something; I don't know him very well at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; they brought them to the party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the -Oswalds left the part? - -Mrs. RAY. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or -during the period following the Ford party in which the question of -whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed? - -Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party -for--normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time -of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one -time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone -since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about -Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work -and she did not say. I really have no information after that party. -I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I -never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it -from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, -you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me -and I have never discussed it with anyone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back -to Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia? - -Mrs. RAY. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the -assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald? - -Mrs. RAY. Not--I do not know enough because--I do not know anything -about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently, -therefore, I usually stay away from that subject. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the -assassination based on your exposure to her? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably -would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so -little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her -to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything -she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her -because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country -and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I -was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent -person? - -Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it -was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very -nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she -was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite -intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little -immature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just -as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to -another country. In your own country might not be considered immature -but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, -people might consider you immature where you really not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the -assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house -when she had to go down for questioning. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was? - -Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington? - -Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was -after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I -took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days -later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have -to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie? - -Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in -Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over -and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more -time and that was last time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those -questions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it? - -Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" -And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss -him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him." -And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that -is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not -about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to -bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she -wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to -her about it but she did not and I really did not ask. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it? - -Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she -thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret -Service and FBI? - -Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, -everyone came to my house, they were very nice people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a -story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life -of Richard Nixon? - -Mrs. RAY. In the papers? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all? - -Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on -Richard Nixon. I did not know it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he -wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it. - -Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am -sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I -missed that one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with -Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to -do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go -to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists -school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked -about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald -had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I -remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how -or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the -paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone -else? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit -suicide or attempt to? - -Mrs. RAY. No; never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak -Russian? - -Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, -every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were -not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by -foreigner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I -think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak -English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than -English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in -Russia to learn perfect it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about -what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you -think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that? - -Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were -mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. -I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would -speak. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the -Russian language? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in -Leningrad? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. -Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, -you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; -when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from -Leningrad. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about -Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from -Leningrad to Minsk, if she did? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met -Oswald in Russia and why she married him? - -Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love -and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her -about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what -was said? - -Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked -her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what -did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have -said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask -how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that -funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they -said they went together little while and she fell in love with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is? - -Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald -just to get out of Russia, did you? - -Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had -a lot to do with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"? - -Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first -chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into -Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. -I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was -far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back -to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her -mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an -American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own -experience. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of -your acquaintance? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he -was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly -and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did -not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even -though you did not do anything or speak two words to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in -connection with the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not -believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee -Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they -suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I -know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first -I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had -not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called -Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee -Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it -was him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised? - -Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew -Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so -shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any -kind of opinion what kind of person he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous -or prone to violence? - -Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he -was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when -I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met -him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he -struck Marina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes? - -Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just -gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small -children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my -2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear -corduroy pants and stuff like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any -money or groceries or clothes or anything like that? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. -I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things -but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George -Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if -they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing -company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend -any money? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. -She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by -us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that -night Lee came over to your house? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly -it was he begged her to come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about? - -Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to -come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and -begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your -husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or -have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as -to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one -who killed the President? - -Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say -did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say -to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we -would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone -else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was -connected with anyone, but done it on his own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it? - -Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really -knows what prompted him to do such a thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about -any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything -about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with -Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place -like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in -Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee -Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and -I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go -to nightclub. He despised them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination -or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her? - -Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few -weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was -very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody -else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime -when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and -ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was -positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my -presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until -she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he -would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until -now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He -worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that -child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I -do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved -you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after -this all happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's -attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations? - -Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did -hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to -me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not -discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the -assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina -was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian -group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything -like that may have been the case? - -Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are -older people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason -to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway? - -Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect -anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to -tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody -at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself? - -Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he -looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the -effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have -bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to -buy a rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. -I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission -might want to know about or should know about. - -Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. -George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took -us out, her and me, to lunch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination? - -Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We -were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had -left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both -knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had -to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay -at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her -in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time -and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. -Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are -going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald -came and got her before we did anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald? - -Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would -have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands -clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when -I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone -and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will -help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it -amounted to $7, groceries, baby food. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was this? - -Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries? - -Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. -I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living -here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have -money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to -this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to -school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired -of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on -her but he has always been very, very helpful with people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was -resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying -to interfere with his marriage? - -Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not -think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian -thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference -with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and -food for her baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald -resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of -taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to -interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful? - -Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when -she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes -to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. -He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was -a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was -comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and -should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He -seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full -share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could -be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to -it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually -talking to him alone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you -would like to tell us, I have no further questions. - -Mrs. RAY. I do not know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else? - -Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down. - -Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ - -The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m., -on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. -Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please? - -Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth in this deposition which we are about to take? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I do. - -I want to add only that I will--some of my statements or even the -majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as -a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you -testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came -to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to -you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which -we call hearsay. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. And something else--some of the statements, -they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be -entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words. -You realize that? - -Mr. JENNER. I do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you -have? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. We don't expect any more. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. We don't want any speculation on your part---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I see. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression -or impressions are and what they might not be. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; I understand. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Igor Voshinin? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your maiden name? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Semenov, S-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling]. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are a resident of Dallas? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Dallas, Tex.--right. 3504 Mockingbird. - -Mr. JENNER. 3504 Mockingbird. And you are the wife of Igor Voshinin? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the -general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the -assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would -appear---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which -authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's, -the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission -and fixing its rules and affording it its powers? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of -procedure of the Commission? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents -that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've -indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President -John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking -from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and -Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in -contact with them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And we understand that you have some information in those -areas and I would like to inquire of you about them. - -I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the -Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a -representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a -citizen of the United States? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born -here? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Naturalized; 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. 1955; March 7? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were naturalized in New York City, I believe? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In New Jersey. - -Mr. JENNER. In New Jersey. Where were you born? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will -spell you both names, because when I was born it was called -Labinskaja--[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has -been called Labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is. - -Mr. JENNER. And orient me--where is that in Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This -is Southern Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. It's in the Caucasus? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus--[spelling] -F-o-r-e--Caucasus. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a person of higher education, are you not? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I hold a degree in geology. That's all. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in -America, call the equivalent of high school? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a university? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years. -It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my -bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. That's Brooklyn, N.Y.? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Brooklyn, N.Y. And master's degree at Rutgers in 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. Rutgers University? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Rutgers University--right; in geology. - -Mr. JENNER. Where in Yugoslavia was the university that you attended? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Belgrade. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband -who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from -Russia when you were 1 year old? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Something like that; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And in what country were you when you first became -conscious of your whereabouts? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I was in Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. In what town? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Panchevo, next to Belgrade--[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. -And before that my parents lived for a few years--I think for a -couple of years in Bulgaria--in Varna Pleven--[spelling] V-a-r-n-a -P-l-e-v-e-n--and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates. - -Mr. JENNER. That's just by reputation? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Forty-five; March 21, 1918. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Where did you meet Mr. Voshinin? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In Belgrade. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then -I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that -I met him again. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil -engineer--as a city engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I understand he's some 12 years older than you? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. Eleven and a half--something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was a civil engineer in---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In the city of Panchevo. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1942? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 1939? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because -he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning---- - -Mr. JENNER. He was? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drafted to the Army. - -Mr. JENNER. What Army? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yugoslavian Army. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were conscious of that fact, were you? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't--what do you mean, "conscious"? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and -was in the Yugoslavian Army? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in -1940--January 21. - -Mr. JENNER. January 21, 1940? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And after your marriage---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the -exercises--you know, the Army training. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already -started--remember? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1939. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. The war started in September of 1939. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the -Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to -appear. And then he returned back in 19--let's see, when was that? -1942--no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans -attacked us in April 1941--Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Invaded Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Invaded Yugoslavia; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you there then? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And you moved from Yugoslavia to where? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an -invitation to me, too. - -Mr. JENNER. To come to Germany? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm -sorry. This is just a joke. It was--well, they would just ask you to -appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to -fill in. After that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and -there. - -Mr. JENNER. You were directed to go? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany--drafted with other young people. At that -time they were doing that. - -Mr. JENNER. You were drafted into the work labor force? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Into the work labor force; right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went, then, to Germany? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Austria? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria--Linz Am Donau--[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m -D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube--because there was another -Linz there in Austria. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were there in Austria until when? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Until, I believe, March 1945--until the Russian troops -started approaching Linz Am Donau--because already they were on the -outskirts. - -Mr. JENNER. Already they were on the outskirts? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. They were already approaching. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You could hear the guns? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I didn't hear them very well--but Igor was at -that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite -distinctly--the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time -leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which. - -Mr. JENNER. You wanted any direction away from the---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put -it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid. - -Mr. JENNER. Your direction all your life has been away from the -Russians? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; away from the Russians. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went to where? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of -course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as -you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because, -you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not -have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for -it. Because, before we left town--several days before--Germans made -an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we -stayed, we would be put to death by Russians--so, what could we lose, -you know? - -Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Bavaria--and were you liberated by -anybody? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right--by lots of people. First, I believe it was -French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through -Kempten; and then came American troops. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were completely liberated by them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. It was good! - -Mr. JENNER. You were pleased to see the Americans? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you -know--any friend. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you come to America then? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And settled temporarily, at least initially, in New Jersey? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In New York--well, let's see. No. First of all we -settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down -there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for--I'm not sure--Gee, I -don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my -husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New -York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.--which was across the -bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is. -I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually come to Dallas? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. It was in September--beginning of September 1955. I -believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another -Texas city first? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled -in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to -stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant -there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New -York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we -decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you like the climate here? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Very much. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the -Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you -moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox -Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't -know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--I forget. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you -see, when we were in Houston, we met there--of course, we went to the -church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest -there and---- - -Mr. JENNER. His name? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Father Alexander Chernay. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell it. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "I". I don't know how he -spelled it. - -And then he introduced us to Mrs. Jitkoff's mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that, too. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died. -She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff--[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. -3714 Locke Lane--if you need the address. - -And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and -all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally--she spoke very -convincingly--she liked Texas very much--and we decided to stay here. -And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and -met George. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't know Bouhe prior to this time? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is George Bouhe? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know -exactly for whom he worked at that time--but I know that he worked for -a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager -of the Russian parish there--Father Alexander's parish. - -Mr. JENNER. What parish is that? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That was the St. Nicholas parish. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about this community of people. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, there were very few people and who we met there -were Clarks--one of the first--Gali and Max Clark--that's [spelling] -G-a-l-i. - -Mr. JENNER. In what town do they live? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. They live at 3712 Selkirk--[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k--in -Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Max Clark is an attorney, is he not? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Clark is---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. She has also an education in the law. - -Mr. JENNER. An education in law? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she a naturalized citizen? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to -Max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. She's -not a born American. - -Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is what is her nativity? Do you know? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she said that her mother is of British -descent--Hughes. And her father was Russian--Shcherbatov. It's a very -well-known historical name. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family -by name Popoff--[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f--Nicholas Popoff. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he live here? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not -sure where he works. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a native of Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I think so. - -And I believe that's--yes, there were some people of Ukrainian -background. I don't remember their names, though. - -But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two -priests--young priests--one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another -one, Father Dimitri Royster. - -Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] R-o-y-s-t-e-r? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. And that is where our troubles with George Bouhe -started. - -I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And -Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much -better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a -church of the future. - -And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they -always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that -they understand much better English. They do not understand Church -Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly -different from Russian and different from modern Russian language. - -So, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with -George. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And here the trouble started. - -And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new -church--practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his -church, I believe four Chichillas--[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and -I think that was about the whole parish. - -And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we -resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment -sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have social intercourse with George? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Bouhe? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place--at other -people's parties once in a while, but---- - -Mr. JENNER. Are you employed? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Self-employed. - -Mr. JENNER. Self-employed? - -And, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half -a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz--both geologists. I -stayed with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as -far as I can remember--no longer than a month. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was in 19---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or -November in 1955. - -And then I started working for Henry Rogatz, for whom I worked until -June 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, -George De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And -he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and -George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help -him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there. - -Mr. JENNER. Drilling projects? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he -wanted me to participate in the geology. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known this man theretofore? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De -Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. For Mr. Rogatz--right. - -Mr. JENNER. Also, in your profession of geology? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's -present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior -history--only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his -own words. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You start and tell us what he told you---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then go from that to what you know of your own -knowledge. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Sir, I'm afraid I don't know anything of my own -knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us all he told you. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He told me that he had some former wives--that he had a -wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy. - -Mr. JENNER. And that daughter's name was Alex? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Alex. Right. - -And then that he had a second wife--I believe he said her name was -Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she -was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He -never talked about that. - -Mr. JENNER. An entertainer of some kind? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Entertainer of some kind--right. - -And he never talked about her and I understand it was a very short -marriage. - -And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with -George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never -met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never -met her myself. - -And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found--he met Jeanne -[pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met -Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No--I -am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the -Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married, -I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia--two trips. I'm not -sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or -trips to Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, uh-huh. We lived all the time in Dallas--all those -years. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia--and start -from the beginning, as you recall it? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well -that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to -go to Yugoslavia. And, somehow, George didn't like very much this -idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to -go--something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well -in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to -Yugoslavia. - -But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells -rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from -Yugoslavia. - -You see, there actually are two periods in George's life. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about it. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to -Yugoslavia. Because--of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This -is my own impression of the whole thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; well, that's what we want. - -Now, you were living here in Dallas when he went to---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time he went to Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had these conversations with him about going to -Yugoslavia before he left? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you know he went? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And I know he went; right. - -Mr. JENNER. You know, by reputation, that he went to Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. What reputation? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to -Yugoslavia. You do know---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but then he sent us postcards from Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he -brought back--that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia--and he -brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought -back--photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian. - -Some of them I knew--some of the places. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew some of the places in Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He was over there about how long? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I thought he was there about a year--something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was when? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I think it was in--now, that I cannot place exactly. I -think in 1957--in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm -not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959--it was before -1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York -City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So, -that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a -delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us. - -Mr. JENNER. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking, -that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth -Petroleum Congress who knew George? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Knew George very well; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was -said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together -with those people. We just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to -talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite -feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your -husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, they talked our own language. Certainly. - -And we just--I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow -was there who was brought up also in Banat region--[spelling] -B-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he -was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely -afraid. - -Mr. JENNER. Afraid to talk to you? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. You know what he did? For some reason he would -say--"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and -let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he -would immediately cease talking, you know. - -And then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd -that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny -behavior--really. - -Mr. JENNER. And this Fifth Petroleum Conference was when? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1959--end of May and beginning of June, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period -of George De Mohrenschildt's career? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I would call it the second period because, first -of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the -second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for -over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That was--well, from some cracks they made. I -mean--no--well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe. - -But Jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to Mr. Khrushchev, you -know. - -Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the -FBI. So, I would rather say this now. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she -never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really -angry. And it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their -talking in left direction---- - -Mr. JENNER. Their talking what? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know, -and once in a while they were just unpleasant. - -Mr. JENNER. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife -the liberal? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would -talk--could talk either way. George--well, if he would, for example, -think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something -pro-Fascistic, he would do that. - -Mr. JENNER. Saying something what? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Pro-Fascistic, you know--pro-Nazi. - -Mr. JENNER. Pro-Nazi? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that -you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you -know. Communists--not communism. In fact, I never heard George--not -necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising -the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several -ways. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a provocative personality, was he? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. He sought to provoke argument? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that -you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. He would take either side? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Either side. - -Mr. JENNER. Always opposite to the other person? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite -sympathy for the--I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in -particular. - -Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask a question? - -Mr. JENNER. Sure. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford. - -Mr. DAVIS. I mean Declan. Excuse me. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Declan. Yes. - -Mr. DAVIS. Do you know them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well when -she was married to her first husband--but not too close with her after -she married Declan. I just met them several times. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you attend the Christmas party that they had? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I did not--oh, wait a minute. That was not -Christmas party. That was New Year's party. - -Mr. DAVIS. New Year's party? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that. -Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you meet Lee Oswald there? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the -President that we attended the New Year's party. - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, the one the year before? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, no. We went elsewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality--other -than in this area of argumentation and provocation. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He -had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage -absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he -complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very -well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or -something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he unconventional? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--what does that mean exactly? - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't dress normally---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's true; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He would come to church in shorts?---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. He would walk into your home without invitation? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. He was that way. - -Mr. DAVIS. Sort of a beatnik? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, no; not beatnik--but he was definitely -nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you -know, object to. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the feelings of others? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely -enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to--in any way. -For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock -them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they -are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The -conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish -people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know. - -He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children -in that respect--honestly. And what the trouble is with George and -Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme -bitterness--extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their -former life. - -Mr. JENNER. Bitterness? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Toward life, toward people, toward--you know, they -thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example, -Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort -of thing. And so and so on. - -Mr. JENNER. They were unreligious people? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists. - -Mr. JENNER. They were aggressive atheists? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in, -sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the -form, mainly--because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. -There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in -which they did it, you know, the impoliteness. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. To help people? - -Mr. DAVIS. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help -someone that needed help? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature, -they are very, very good natured--definitely. They're for the -underdog, you know--always. And--well, compared to George Bouhe, whose -whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it -or not, you know--they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not -bother so much about people as George Bouhe did. - -Mr. JENNER. They weren't aggressive about it as George Bouhe was? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. But they were very--are very good natured. - -Mr. JENNER. And generous people? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Not George--no. Jeanne, yes; but not George. - -For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very, -very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in -any way they could. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet -either one of the Oswalds? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; uh-uh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn -about their existence? Fix the time, first. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. My husband read it in the newspaper. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be in June of 1962? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say. - -Mr. JENNER. They arrived here in---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. They arrived here and there was an article in the -newspaper. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. They arrived in New York on the 12th day of June 1962? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know about---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just telling you that that's so. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. And then your husband read an item in the local -paper--about what? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. About them arriving here and from where did they come. -They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived here and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in this article that arrested your -attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance -or happenings in Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the -article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my -friends--first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances. -They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't -tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is -a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish. - -Mr. JENNER. Boorish? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the -right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that -we don't want to associate with him at that time. - -And the second time I heard from them--no, between that time--between -Clarks and De Mohrenschildts--I heard from them some other people in -the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them. - -Mr. JENNER. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds--about -two Oswalds. Right? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and -somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I -heard--the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of -Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. In conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political -inclinations? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did they say and who said it--which of them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather -remarks on George's side--because we asked George definitely and Jeanne -not to bring him to our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds -are there because we had certain reasons--not evidence--but reasons to -believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not -sure at all whether he would be or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want -to have anything to do with them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De -Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that -he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then, -later--that was at the beginning--that was at the very beginning--and -then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a -little bit. That's my own opinion--impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you go ahead and talk. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know, -I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You -know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in -theory but not in practice. - -And finally I remember a pretty good conversation--George mentioned the -possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you -know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was." - -And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George -right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. -And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because -he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia--and then, -of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a -Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I -remember that argument--but more than that, I just can't say, because I -just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again, -you know--the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up -about Oswald. What did you mean by that? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him, -definitely for a period. You know, that he was just--that he just was -a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let -anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person--especially a -person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right? - -Mr. JENNER. They let him in in the first place? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans -for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2 -years. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left -in--oh--the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. 1962? So, it's three years. Right? - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Then, for these 3 years--this is all our own theory, we -have no---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. You understand? - -For these 3 years, he could have got his training? Right? Whatever it -is. - -Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children--with -child, wife, and with suitcases--no problem there. Which is absolutely -unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their -families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases. - -And, thirdly, we believed that--we were expecting, rather, to hear -from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know, -reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, -we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in -communism, came here sincerely--like people we know. For example, -Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior -after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was -unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. -Right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. According to George, he was a great--he had -great intellectual power; he was very clever person--definitely -intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was--he -couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual -person to go get his living lecturing against communism? - -Mr. JENNER. Were you harkening back to your own history---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. I might have done it if I hadn't had my own -profession. - -Mr. JENNER. That you were able to obtain positions? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position. -Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember -exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed -their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other -people---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. But--the other point was that it would really help -Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn -some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on -anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to -the factory--or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he -worked--instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right? - -Mr. JENNER. Right. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for -being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his -learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to -lecture? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his -mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really -never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very -well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very -interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt--say, "Well, -why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?" - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I remember I did ask that--and I don't remember the -exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I -remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia, -or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd -leave that up to him. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke -fluent Russian? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good -Russian. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did he ever discuss where he learned to speak Russian so -fluently? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote--I don't -remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what -Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you -know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember. - -Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were -working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2 -years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian--just from -the fact of working--just from the fact of working there? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I think so. Yes; I think so--because, after all, you -rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the -time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more -suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that -Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia--modern apartment. And they -just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have -to earn that to get it. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did she tell this to you? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other -people--I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe. - -Mr. DAVIS. That they had a very nice apartment? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. What would a nice apartment in Russia be? Just one room? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?" -What did you think they had? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought -of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a -bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice -according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another -little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like -him; that his workers actually hated him. - -And that was another hint to me--that why did they hate him? Usually, -Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners. -Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe -he reported on them--or something like that. You know, little by -little--but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken -separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it -together and it sort of tells something to us, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You go right ahead. What you put together and what -impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing -out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be -embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these -impressions, why, what you base them on--and I understand that you are -rationalizing. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did you want to ask a question, Mr. Davis? - -Mr. DAVIS. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to -you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; he never did. - -Mr. DAVIS. You don't recall anything about them being in Moscow? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in -Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper--or maybe his mother -mentioned it--his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother -mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the -American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere. -Some of her gossip, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Some of her gossip? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these -impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of -the time---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since -November 22, 1963. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And that's what you are doing, is it not? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Fine. - -We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your -fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in -Russia and had come to America with his wife and child---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, -you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted -reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who -was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you -expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, -and these were things he wasn't doing--from which you concluded you had -some misgivings, at least. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And have you recounted all of that now? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have completed your rationalizing statement in that -connection? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a -series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to -the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with -respect to trips to Houston, Tex.? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very -little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his -business affairs--but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. To Houston? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I mean to Houston. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these regular? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow, -with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time, -prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all. -We just didn't give much thought to that. - -Mr. JENNER. But you noticed it? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always -expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our -house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone -number, you know, to call him--and it would be from Houston. - -But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely -impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went -a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his -private business--private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee -Sharples--concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these -Houston trips recently? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips -before November 22--because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned -to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to -bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell -exactly why, but she said something about some people--some character -whom he is visiting in Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Character? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you gather from that? Did she use the word -"character"? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; _Teep_ [phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means -"character" in English. You know, it means type of a person. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character--but what kind -of a person? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, unsavory character. - -Mr. JENNER. Unsavory character? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood politically unsavory. - -Mr. JENNER. Politically unsavory? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's what I understood. - -And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise -that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again--and I assumed -that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in -Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they name the person? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she -said something--I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we -thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well, -you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you -know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you -can see why he thinks. [laughing] - -Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect -on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some -connection with Oswald? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Never. No. In fact, we didn't think of Oswald very much. - -Mr. JENNER. I am talking about your rationalizing last night or---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had -something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business -trips. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do know that you were not aware of what the -character of his business was in Houston, if he had any? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You just assumed he had business in Houston? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't know? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know. - -(Off-the-record discussion follows.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous -walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the -United States to Panama. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make such a trip? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He says he did--and he brought some films and some photo -pictures--photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there -was that volcano eruption, you know--so I assume that he did make the -trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any cards from them as they wended their -way down? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we were not on speaking terms with them. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, this is the period when you were not friendly? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And afterward, when they got back---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. We met them at Ballens. - -Mr. JENNER. And some of the friendship was restored? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did see moving pictures of---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; of their jungle life. - -Mr. JENNER. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there -pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she--because -one of them was taking pictures. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. But you saw representations in the movie film of -him---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and -you saw also her---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. In the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your -attention to a particular incident, did it? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; it did not. It only--you know what I was actually -wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures -could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then, -when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. -Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that -distance. - -Mr. JENNER. The volcano eruption--did that sequence of frames in the -movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was -a very beautiful picture. - -Mr. JENNER. And did the movie film also show him in that area? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; Uh-uh. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they say where the volcano was? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I am not sure they said where it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Yucatan? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't think it was Yucatan. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Somewhere near Parikutin, I believe. Somewhere there. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n--because this is one of the -recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico--Parikutin. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. When was this event--the walking trip from the -border to Panama? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know. Chronologically, you mean, when was this? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the time, first, the year--as you best recall -now. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that -Khrushchev came to this country, right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I believe so. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And -we restored it after the trip. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had -visited this country? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They -returned probably in 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated -invasion of Cuba? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. You mean, that President Kennedy is---- - -Mr. DAVIS. Bay of Pigs. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; the Bay of Pigs. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I do remember that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that -event--at the same time, a little bit before, a little after? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on -dates--and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was -that? - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you've put me in a bad spot. - -Mr. DAVIS. Well, it was in--shortly after 1960. It would be about March -of 1960. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. The President was elected in November 1960. - -Mr. DAVIS. It was very shortly after that. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the -President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December, -December of 1960, or January of 1961. - -Mr. DAVIS. I think it was probably about that time--or in February. - -Mr. JENNER. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During -the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been -inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961. - -Mr. DAVIS. The 20th is inauguration. - -Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of January? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. I think it was in late February or early March. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's reasonably accurate. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't -know really. Really, I'm afraid to say. - -Mr. JENNER. They might have been in Haiti? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on -the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their -breath--to rest a little. - -Mr. JENNER. On the way back from the Mexican walking trip? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through -Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a -month--and then came back. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the -impression that they had visited Cuba? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. No. But something--I think he did not visit Cuba. I -believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like -that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he -said. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when he visited Ghana? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. There was; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, tell us about that. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I -don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia. -I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am -pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper--Ghana -newspaper--and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read -the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known -philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"--which caught my eye. So, I -thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.] - -Mr. DAVIS. Was he a stamp collector? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. DAVIS. And this article said he was? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced -through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all. - -And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana--so I'm pretty -sure he was there. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw some photographs from Ghana? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Ghana. - -Mr. JENNER. And you saw this newspaper? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and I saw the newspaper--and I believe this -newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti--right. -And the English one was from Ghana; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a Ghana newspaper published in English? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; in English language--written in English language. -And that's what it said there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to him about that? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he -went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look -for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you -know--that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you -are geologists looking for oil, you know. - -But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of -George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some -services for the State Department, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the United States? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Of the United States; yes. And under those -circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you -know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted--made certain -hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For -example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with -the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came -back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on -few other foreign trips, he also said that--sort of, you know, hinted -that that was what. - -Mr. JENNER. What foreign trip? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He was traveling to Europe several times, I forget which. - -Mr. JENNER. Yugoslavia, Ghana? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, let me have--I have it on piece of paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you have? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior -to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was -before--long before Castro. Right? - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drilling some well--made some very good oil -discovery in Cuba. - -Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime. -Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it -says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And -he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those -three countries. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize any of them? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries. -And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived -formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a -look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first -wife and child. I believe she is--I believe Alex was at that time in -France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that -some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his. - -Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said -to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then--I'm not sure whether he -was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there. -Then, he went to Haiti several times. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether -he actually made them or not, you don't know---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that he told you that? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would -tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite -certain, I think, because of this newspaper--so, that's why. And, then, -we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the -airplane, I mean, but----[Laughter.] - -And then I noticed he visited--he mentioned that he visited--I don't -know--he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic -sometime in between. - -Mr. JENNER. Sometime in between what? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. In between his walking trip and 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had -visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them--but I'm not -sure. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of his absences from Dallas? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. And the general conversation in the community in which you -moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be -making? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his -experiences in these various places and countries? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what -his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell, -yes; about--he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from -Europe, from Ghana, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture -postcards or things he had purchased? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; there were taken photographs. - -Mr. JENNER. Ones that he took? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't -remember--from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card -from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you got cards from Haiti---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Before this last Haiti trip? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so; yes; I don't remember very well; yes. - -You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did -not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they -moved to Haiti we did. - -Mr. JENNER. You did get cards? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present -sojourn of his? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; quite. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he -said, what she said, and then his departure. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. A few months before their departure, he told us that he -is working on getting a job with Haiti and that--I understood--that -foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with -the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti -Government. - -And he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a -lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Back and forth to Haiti? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he -won't even mention where he goes, just when--or sometimes on business -trips. - -Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought -from Haiti a newspaper in which--French newspaper--in French--and it -stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co. -I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement -from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It -wasn't a statement. It was a letter from the bank saying that $20,000 -was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it -was by Haitian Government. That's what it was--as far as I remember. - -Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money -in sisal plantation--[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you use sisal to make rope. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage -sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. -He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that." - -And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's -possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer -time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa -Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very -much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle -down, also. - -Mr. JENNER. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South -America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, I think so. And she said she was very ill on that -trip. - -Mr. JENNER. She was? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. In these movies, how were they dressed? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she -was wearing very torn dress--which looked like that Tarzan lady on the -films, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything -on [laughing], with very little dress on. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because -they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Robbed, you mean. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; robbed. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No, I thought it was more practical--because the -branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing -you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a -mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers -as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were -attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were -shooting. - -But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they -were taken in the cities for paupers--they were mistaken for paupers, -and people would lend them money. - -Mr. JENNER. Give them pesos? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes [laughing]. - -Mr. JENNER. All of which, I am sure, Mr. De Mohrenschildt enjoyed -thoroughly? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Tremendously [laughing]. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us -about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the -impressions that you gained of the Oswalds--as to how they got along -whether he treated her well or poorly? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oswalds--his wife? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told -us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De -Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to -separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the -reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes--was -beaten again, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Black and blue eyes? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them -returning to Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Either of whom? - -Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Returning to Russia? No; I don't remember. No; I don't -think so. - -Mr. JENNER. No mention of the fact--if it was a fact--that Oswald -wanted Marina to return to Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. Or, that they both desired to return to Russia? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that. - -Mr. JENNER. Just nothing at all concerning---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Nothing at all concerning that. - -Mr. JENNER. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect -to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and -the reaction of Oswald to that? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George -thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee -prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I -remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book -that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was -very angry. - -Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed -against Oswald, you know. Because the why--you know, the reason that he -gave. Why would he want that? - -Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange -about Oswald--my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the -communication of Marina--even with Russian people. Because he was so -unpleasant to Russians--to those folks around who tried to help her, -you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant--and, for some reason, we -got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate -with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I -asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became -acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in -which you moved is concerned? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De -Mohrenschildts--and however you may have liked or disliked them in -their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with -everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this -would be especially true, for example, of Marina--that you'd like to -bring her into the circle? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say because we are not very close with -that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know--St. Nicholas Parish circle. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I really am not thinking about that particular parish. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering -you--that the normal thing that you expected--would expect of these -people---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yeah. I understand you now. Yeah. Quite. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those -with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or -otherwise to acquire facility with the English language---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's -the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country--you know, -just do it as soon as possible. Right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. And what did you understand with respect to her -education? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not -have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe -that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that -wouldn't be college in Russia. It might be something---- - -Mr. JENNER. No. It would be something like junior college here? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Juniors or something like that. It would give her -technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your -friends and the people here, her general level of erudition and -education and intelligence in comparison with his? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. Now, of course, what I'm saying is hearsay, right? - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. But several people said differently. For example, I -heard from the ladies--from the Russian ladies of our parish that -she was--you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, -from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and -everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was -sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who -are more developed---- - -Mr. JENNER. And more educated? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just -the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers, -for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a -little bit. - -So, I really don't know what to think. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the last you heard from the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That was Christmas. We received a card from them. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; it was in 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to -that time--that is, while they were still in Haiti? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. With the De Mohrenschildts before Christmas 1963? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she wrote me two letters; I wrote her one letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any contact with the children--either of Mrs. -De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt--recently? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we were visited by her daughter--by Chris--twice. -Once it was before Christmas and---- - -Mr. JENNER. But after November 22? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I -believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just--they left -on March 15. They left Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything during the course of this social -visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts--George and Jeanne or -Jean or Eugene? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much, -I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they -exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believe -that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things. -I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that -they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Angry in what sense? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--they said that they were not very hospitable for one -thing and, for another things, they--well, they said that George and -Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, now, would you develop that, please? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I hate to do that, because I just don't know how true it -all is. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they -said. It is pure hearsay. I understand. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Pure hearsay of angry children. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what it is. Right? - -Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and -George was because they were shooting their mouths off there--pro-left -and against United States--something to that effect; Chris said that -George was making the most--the funniest accusations--statements in -public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the -President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure--and -this was, of course, awfully shocking to children. - -Mr. JENNER. He believed that the rightwing or the FBI what? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the children said. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Murdered the President. That's what the children said -and I, frankly don't---- - -Mr. JENNER. You don't put much stock in it? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these -were rantings or nonsense or---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like -everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so -bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what -he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or -Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them -by standard measures at all--what they say or what they do even. They -require different measures. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we -necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these -personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they -did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings -and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs. -Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run -them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving -them consideration---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that. - -Mr. JENNER. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay -and rumor---- - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you -would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't -necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some -judgment. - -Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I -would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit. - -Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be -helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source -leading us to something that might be helpful--that you would like to -suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I -haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all -that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of -the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I can't think of anything. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't think of anything? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No. I can't think of anything--people that might be -useful. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all -this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? -It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might -be an incident that occurred. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors -that--like everybody else heard--which you have heard definitely--but I -don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the -trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light -on that thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record -and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there -anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record -discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to -your testimony, which I failed to bring out? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that took place in those discussions -that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your -testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't quite understand that question. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the -discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room -that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out -that ought to be on the record? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well what was off the record and -what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You think I have brought out everything? - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Everything; yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also -say the right--I must say the right--to read over your deposition when -it has been transcribed by the reporter--which we hope will be next -week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission -will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband -call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll -know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read -it. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to -you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, -and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your -deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you -and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her -regular rates are. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say, -expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box -[laughter]. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. A historical document! - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I -was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not at all. - -Mr. DAVIS. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back -very wonderful memories for me. - -Mrs. VOSHININ. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ - -The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March -26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please? - -Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Your name is Igor Vladimir Voshinin? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to -investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire -of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons -you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some -contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that -would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy. - -Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of -the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No. -11130, creating a Commission? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the -United States authorizing the Commission? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of -the Commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to -proceed to take your deposition. - -You reside where? - -Mr. VOSHININ. 3504 Mockingbird Lane in Highland Park, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And is Highland Park a suburb of Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right; but it is an independent community. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; how long have you resided in Highland Park, Tex.? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to that time where did you reside? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In University Park. - -Mr. JENNER. Also a suburb---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. An independent community and suburb. - -Mr. JENNER. And for how long did you reside there? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, since 1957, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Now, it may be late in 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation or profession? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I am a professional engineer. - -Mr. JENNER. And by whom are you employed, or are you an independent -engineer? - -Mr. VOSHININ. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting -engineers. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that name, please? - -Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] M-u-l-l-e-n & P-o-w-e-l-l. - -Mr. JENNER. What area of engineering do you direct your attention? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In structural engineering. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. By naturalization or birth? - -Mr. VOSHININ. By naturalization. - -Mr. JENNER. And when were you naturalized? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be -1954--I'm sorry to delay you. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it -worry you a bit. - -(The witness hands card to Mr. Jenner.) - -Mr. JENNER. [Reading] March 7, 1955? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. In the light of that, Mr. Voshinin, in what country were -you born? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia before the Revolution. - -Mr. JENNER. And how old a man are you? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in 1906--so, therefore, I am 58 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And -did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from -Russia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and -approximately when. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the -hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we -were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That was in 1920--early in 1920. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then 14 years old, approximately? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Thirteen--yeah. - -Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and -my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now -Istanbul in Turkey. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where -we lived up to this last war. - -Mr. JENNER. 1940---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany, -and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to -Yugoslavia. And after--by the end of the war when the Communists were -close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to -Kempten---- - -Mr. JENNER. To what? - -Mr. VOSHININ. To Kempten in south Bavaria--[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en--and -that's where we met the American Army. - -Mr. JENNER. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance -reached the Bavarian area and freed you? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April -and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in -Germany before the American Army. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you married? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your wife's name? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Natalie. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you marry her? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Belgrade, Yugoslavia. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. VOSHININ. It was in 1940. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; I have no children. I have only my father here. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you come to the United States? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--it was November 12, 1947. - -Mr. JENNER. And your wife accompanied you at that time? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you settled where in this country? - -Mr. VOSHININ. We settled first in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. City? - -Mr. VOSHININ. New York City, for some time, then we mostly lived in New -Jersey. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a higher education--that is, an education -beyond high school equivalent? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what that was, please, and where? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from -the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil -engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City, -or its environs? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right--in Brooklyn. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued your profession in civil -engineering---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1931, up to now--except for the time of war. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the dates again when you were in -Yugoslavia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. From the middle of 1920 to 1942. - -Mr. JENNER. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to -Germany and you escaped then to Austria? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. That was an escape, wasn't it? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they -dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know--and somehow I managed, with -other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people -who got out. - -Mr. DAVIS. Did you stay in Austria, then, throughout the war? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; almost out through the war. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Austria was occupied by the Germans also, was it not? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of -course, you had to go to the labor office--because otherwise I would be -arrested immediately. - -Mr. DAVIS. When you'd go there, they'd let you stay in Austria? - -Mr. VOSHININ. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor -force--whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not -disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I--when I -got out of the train with two other fellows--and, of course, it has -cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You had to do a little bribery? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, to three persons there--including the guard which -was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had -seen about a hundred people who did the same thing--so, it probably was -going--big business there. - -Mr. DAVIS. When did you come to Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. 1955--about the first of September. - -Mr. JENNER. You were naturalized in New York City? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; in New Brunswick, N.J. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, New Brunswick, N.J.? - -Mr. VOSHININ. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in -New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you -know. - -Mr. JENNER. You're asthmatic? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I'm asthmatic--and, therefore, I have to choose my -climate. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin--was she likewise born in Russia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her -parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old. - -Mr. JENNER. She probably wouldn't remember then. - -Mr. VOSHININ. She doesn't know anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you -had any advance acquaintance with anybody here? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I knew two persons whom I met through the church. - -Mr. JENNER. And what church is that? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--the church in Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it and what is its denomination? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Greek Orthodox Church. - -Mr. JENNER. Greek Orthodox Church? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's -St. Vladimir--but I'm not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. St. Vladimir? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so--but I'm not quite sure that was the -name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houston first---- - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they -gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky--Paul Raigorodsky. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name, please. - -Mr. VOSHININ. R-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he of Russian descent--or Yugoslavian or what? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. He had preceded you to this country? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long? - -Mr. VOSHININ. He was the first Russian immigrant who settled here in -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And he is a millionaire--a very rich man. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known him? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, -the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you -go to Dallas--we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston -and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. -So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, -but we don't know anybody." - -So, he said, "Well, why don't you--we have two men who are able to help -you--and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe--George Bouhe." The -Russians are referring--joking about Raigorodsky--they call him, "the -Czar," here. - -Mr. JENNER. Yeah. - -Mr. VOSHININ. So--he's an old man--and so when we came, then the -next day--it was during our vacation in 1955--and so we went to see -Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there -is a church of our denomination here on McKinney and a few other just -useful things--nothing in particular. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted--when you came to -Dallas, you didn't know anybody? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You then became acquainted with Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Bouhe--and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of -liked--and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked. - -Mr. DAVIS. Was there any special reason for that other than just---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to -mix in their affairs---- - -Mr. JENNER. Their personal affairs? - -Mr. VOSHININ. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't -need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't -like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like--didn't -like his approach too well. - -Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a -little aggressive in your personal affairs? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor, -you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire with respect to that--your aversion, at -least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not -that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal -affairs--particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and -what not to do? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Well, everybody complaining the same way. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Although I don't mind him helping people. - -Mr. JENNER. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has -it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on -government--communism--conservatism--whatever it might be? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No. But my impression is that he is rather -conservative--in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about -the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot -somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. In Russia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him, however, as a loyal American? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--well, I don't know. We never talked about any -American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any -proof otherwise. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't suspect him, however, of any Communist -affiliation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well--uh--one is accustomed to suspect everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, no more than that? - -Mr. VOSHININ. But--uh--no more than that, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas -broadened, did it not, as time went on? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was -largely among that segment of the community or society here of people -from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and Lebanon. - -Mr. JENNER. Lebanon, also? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, those people who come to church. - -Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance, initially, was among church folks---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Who attended your church? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney -Avenue--because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's -the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people -went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English -language. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the parish? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, there were two parishes there. - -Mr. JENNER. Yeah. - -Mr. VOSHININ. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One -was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim -Parish. - -The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the -services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held -their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas -Parish--who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor -coming from Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was Father---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Father Alexander. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Father of the other parish is Dimitri? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Father Dimitri Royster. - -Mr. JENNER. Royster? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And the St. Nicholas Parish secretary-treasurer is Mr. -Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's the motivating force, is he? - -Mr. VOSHININ. He's the motivating force there--and everything -[laughter]. - -Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I -became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and--uh--I -didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that largely because of the aggressiveness of Mr. Bouhe? - -Mr. VOSHININ. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting -once in 5 weeks--and many other things--and because I believe that -the church in this country should be in the language of the country. -I think it's natural--it's what it should be in order that our -denomination can exist at all--because in two, three generations, the -people lose their national language, and then there is no church. -Besides that, uh--I--what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't -think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in -thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national -backgrounds and is--it's absolutely senseless in serving the service -in some other language than the language in which everybody can -understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church--of -which we have remained members up to now. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these two parishes and the church itself--that is, -the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes--is that the -medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say--from -Russia, from Yugoslavia, from---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Lebanon; yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Became acquainted? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. Everybody knows everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew everybody? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth -through this group? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in -the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social -intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. JENNER. And you people generally became acquainted, one with -the other, in not only your church activity but your general social -activity as well? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity, -because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and -my wife met them too, so--but partially, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to -or not you sort of kept track of everybody? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was -doing or would like to? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and -still keeps files on everybody--when anybody was born, baptized, or -whatever happened to everybody. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came -here, I immediately opened a file on you." - -I say, "What for?" - -And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things--so I keep a file on -everybody." - -Then, later, the parishes separated, as you know. - -Mr. JENNER. The parishes separated. Yes. I've heard that. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became -unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out. - -Mr. JENNER. Of that building? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on -Newton and Throckmorton, as you know. - -And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only -used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that -house and it was torn away--torn down. And now there is a Gulf station -on McKinney. - -Mr. JENNER. A Gulf gasoline station? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at -the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic). - -Mr. JENNER. Hold it. Can you spell that? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian -name. These are Georgian people. - -Mr. JENNER. By "Georgian," you mean---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. From Georgia. - -Mr. JENNER. From the Georgia part of Russia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. It's the [spelling] T-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something -like that. - -Mr. JENNER. That's good enough. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that -in Tsinzadze's house--because my father, I think, goes to confession -there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his -confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor -coming there--but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is -now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from -Galveston--from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church--who comes there -once in 5 weeks or so and they have services. - -So, perhaps once in the year we go there--or twice. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you -describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the -community as a group. - -Mr. VOSHININ. St. Nicholas? - -Mr. JENNER. No; the whole--this Russian---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. They are not only Russians there. Of course, -Russians--you said Russians--Yugoslav, Lebanese--but in addition to -that, there are those people--Estonians and Latvians. You see, there -are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you -see, there is a national differentiation now--yeah--in addition, I -can take another nationality. These are people--west Ukrainians and -Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and -Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia. - -So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish--we call that -"Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we -usually call Bouhe's parish. - -Mr. DAVIS. He's still the secretary of that parish? - -Mr. VOSHININ. He's still the secretary of that parish--yeah. - -These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians. -There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians -and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim -Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are -Russians there, there are Yugoslavs--it's true that Bouhe's group has -some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church--not very often at -least--very rare; but they come to us, too--so I don't think they are -members any place--those to which I'm talking about. - -But in our church there are a lot of--well, not too many Russians -there--not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but -we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we -have some Serbians--people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek -people even; we have all the Arabic people here--you know, Lebanese and -other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American -people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members. - -Mr. JENNER. Who became interested in the Greek Orthodox Church? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through -study of church history, became Orthodox. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this group--and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's -following as well as the group in which you move--are they, by and -large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country -or in Europe, or Asia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with -higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of -people with higher education. We have doctors and engineers and---- - -Mr. JENNER. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of -others in the group--in the general sense of the word? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did there move into this community or come into this -community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some -people by the name--or a man by the name--whose last name was De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes--except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in -God. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, he is an atheist--but he did arrive on the scene or he -was on the scene---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived -here. - -Mr. JENNER. He was here? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was here. - -Mr. JENNER. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De -Mohrenschildt already here? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was he active among these people--even though, as you -say, he's an atheist? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was singing in the church choir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was singing in the church choir even though---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. At St. Nicholas. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though he was an atheist? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that's rather unusual. How did that strike you? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in -that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to -church. - -Mr. JENNER. Even though he didn't believe in church? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he said he doesn't believe in it but---- - -Mr. JENNER. And was De Mohrenschildt married at that time? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom? - -Mr. VOSHININ. To the Sharples girl. - -Mr. JENNER. What are they--Quakers? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't -know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor--his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you know of De Mohrenschildt's background? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Only what he told me, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was said by others in this community of people? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; something what was said by others. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by -reputation among the people you have described. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Well, De Mohrenschildt comes from a Swedish family. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean, by reputation, he was born in Sweden? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This -is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born -in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents--and that he was a rich man -and---- - -Mr. JENNER. His father was a rich man? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some -other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil -town in Russia. - -So, probably a very substantially rich man. - -As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested--I don't -know by whom--and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he, -as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and -hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to -get out of prison, and they moved to Poland. - -He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then -went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school -and became a Polish cavalry officer--and he was proudly showing his -picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So--but, -somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to -school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us--I never saw -his diploma--but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics. - -Mr. JENNER. From a school in Belgium? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I--you know, I don't -like to question people too much. - -Mr. JENNER. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is -at large in the community we talked about. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So--but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would -think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember, -of course, better but--somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me -from which school it was, but I don't remember. - -After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and -saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again--and -he went to school in Austin. - -Mr. JENNER. Austin, Tex.? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Austin, Tex.--and in Colorado. Now, whether it was -Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know. -But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned -his master's degree. - -After that, he went to work in some southern American country or--I -think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country--I think it -was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else. -And--uh--then I think he returned here again during the war. - -Mr. JENNER. That's the Second World War? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; during the Second World War, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the -Dallas area or to the United States? - -Mr. VOSHININ. To the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the -war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections -with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some -interest--because he was receiving some money from that company even -after he divorced his wife--until it finally stopped. But he was--I -remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received -from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am -not a consultant any more." - -He was some kind of consultant for that company--I don't know what of, -the company's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he -had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much -money, but helping him. - -And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, -you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and -made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he -was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money--real -big money. - -Mr. JENNER. This is by reputation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil -somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was -Cuba. But that must be in 1953--something like that--because I know -he was always running around talking about income tax on that money -because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present -certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which -year you receive that and so on. - -So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about -that sort of thing. - -Mr. JENNER. This is what he said anyway? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with -him--so I don't know. - -So, shortly after that, after we came here--you see, how we met him, -my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University; -and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were -looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which -also would give her the possibility to work in her profession--and not -be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job--which was -very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist--though -we have a dozen of them here. But--so Bouhe gave us--he said, "There -is a Russian geologist"--so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De -Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good--beautiful office in First -National Bank. So---- - -Mr. JENNER. And that's how you met De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's how we met De Mohrenschildt. - -So, my wife worked there for about---- - -Mr. JENNER. She worked in his office? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, for half a day--part-time. - -Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have -anything but you can--I want to bring my files in order, you know, and -you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start -with--and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking -for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I -have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and -all your work." - -So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day--she worked -half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife -only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she -moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he -retired--which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my -wife worked for Henry Rogatz. - -And De Mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his -office. - -Mr. JENNER. What year was this? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he divorced his wife--that was 1956, I would -say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that -winter--1955 or 1956--and finally he divorced her and after--sometimes -after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly -he closed his office but that must be around 1956. - -And then he--after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is -no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard -for him because he has, you know--he had some kind of accident, as I -understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and -he has difficulties to concentrate--and, therefore, he has to have an -office where he can--you know, some job which he can walk a little, -consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's -what he explained to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Not follow a regimen--be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come -back at 2---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that--just -physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work--to look for -foreign assignments; he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid -Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind -of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are -some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can--if -you find the right man you will get a job. - -So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and -finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much -because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other -way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there -for about a year. So, that was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he married then? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; he was not married at that time. - -Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French -woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel---- - -Mr. JENNER. He met her. - -Mr. VOSHININ. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh -Hotel--because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce -and she was living there---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce--and she -was also living there? - -Mr. VOSHININ. She was also living there--yes. - -She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to -different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to -New York to sell--her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los -Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her -fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was--so, she -was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in -love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say -a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying -she was a French woman. - -Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about -his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't -understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she -came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question -her about that--because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"--he -says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all. - -And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from -China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't -know--and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in -China? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her -father's name was Fomenko, she said--[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o--who was -an engineer on the East Chinese Railroad---- - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Can you describe De Mohrenschildt's personality? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, do you want the further travelings as far as I know? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please. - -Mr. VOSHININ. So, after--well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of -that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there. - -Mr. JENNER. His present wife? - -Mr. VOSHININ. His present wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, his present wife was not his wife? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. They were very much in love, you know--and her husband -who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George -De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"--and there was -some kind of--we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very -cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that -he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment. -And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who -was running constantly De Mohrenschildt--and all kinds of things like -that. - -Mr. JENNER. A lot of cloak and dagger? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they -divorced--she divorced her husband--and, you know, he is now in an -insane--had some kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now -in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what. - -Mr. JENNER. In California? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In California; yes. Bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not -Le Gon. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had -somebody try it yesterday. Would you---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. If you give me a pencil, I may try it. - -(After writing name, as set out above, hands paper to Mr. Jenner.) - -I think that's it. - -Mr. JENNER. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an -accurate spelling. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Her daughter still keeps this name. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her daughter's first name--the one you now have in -mind? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Christina. - -Mr. JENNER. Christina. And she also had a child--Alexandra? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know anything about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of -Alexandra? - -Mr. VOSHININ. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know -their names. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My -wife probably knows them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl--and her -husband, too. They are quite different from the parents. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. VOSHININ. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an -assignment in Ghana--which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a -pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us -a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short -article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal -stamps--Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a -representative of a Swedish company." - -Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those -jerks--they don't know anything." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect -that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a -Swedish company? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in -there--but it said, "As a representative,"--and he said that it would -be this Swedish company. - -Mr. JENNER. He said that it was a Swedish company? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company, -you know. - -Mr. JENNER. But it did mention De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and -specialist in stamps"--and so on. - -And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps? -Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?" - -"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they -don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also -provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has -trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in -Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what -parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil -leases and assign--and sign some kind of contract with them--with the -Government of Ghana--in their name, and came back to Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And then he returned to Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has -interests in Nigeria--and he says, "you know, I am Swedish--so they -rely on me." - -The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are -many geologists in Sweden itself--but perhaps they don't have oil -specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and the other members of the community think that -he was exaggerating or this was all fictional? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that. - -Mr. JENNER. When the Ghana newspaper said that? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print -that newspaper--I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates -a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of -whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk -much more than he actually is. - -Mr. JENNER. At least, he tended to exaggerate? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Everybody with whom he was associated? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, are--or to whom he met--that he was a, you know, -big businessman, big oil man, and so on--big specialist. And he wrote -an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia, -his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State -Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually -in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he--and it was said, you -know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about -himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that -Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a -consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there -was--all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of -course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to -Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after--when he came back from -Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on -the state of affairs in Yugoslavia--"And I gave quite a lecture there -to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and -listened to me." You know, that kind of talk. - -So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and -a second time in Yugoslavia--but I didn't hear it from him. I just -heard that as a rumor. - -And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden, -after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And, -you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends -and relatives--so he said he stayed there for a week, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. When was this? When did this take place? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957, -1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to -Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has -cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get -even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit -Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that. -And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said -that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was -much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And, -besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course, -one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time of that, please? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That was 1960, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the -preparations for the Cuban invasion? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean -our Cuban invasion? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion--but there -was an invasion of Cuba. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I take that from the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it -was in 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on -speaking terms at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there come about a break in friendship with De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; but that was about the time when they left on their -trip. - -Mr. JENNER. They were supposed to do what? - -Mr. VOSHININ. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a -city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by -them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border, -you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American -married with a Mexican girl--a very rich man living near Eagle Pass. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his name? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Tito Harper, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Harper? Tito Harper? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never -met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people, -big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on -both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George. - -And, from there, he went to Torreon--I don't know why Torreon--and -I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old -Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by -foot--having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their -belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the -dog--I mean, the dog rode the mule--and that way they traveled, you -know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. -In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because -it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main -highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the -hills. - -And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for -example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the -top--which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the -lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he -made the movie--it's real exciting--a colored movie and that red lava -flowing--you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, -they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it. - -And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City -they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend--also a very -rich man there of Russian background on Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his name? - -Mr. VOSHININ. He's dead now. - -Mr. JENNER. He's dead? Did he mention his name? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, he was--I'm bad on names. His first name was -Michel--which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is, -I don't know--Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local -businessman on Haiti, and he died since. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to -church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only -time she was in the church--because she's more antireligious than he is. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "she," you mean Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt--yes. Because he's not religious, -not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. But she---- - -Mr. JENNER. He's not antagonistic to religion but she is? - -Mr. VOSHININ. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came--and she cried -in the church. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, which church is this? Here in Dallas or in Haiti? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Here. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. VOSHININ. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died -after--pretty soon, and they came to the church--which puzzled our -pastor very much, Father Royster--and they asked for a church service. - -Mr. JENNER. They asked to have a mass said for the deceased Mr. -Brightman? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he -would like to look for another assignment. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back, -or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home -there of some people, I think, from Arizona--Hilton or Tilton? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No--not that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala -while the Cuban refugees were being trained? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; I didn't hear about that. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't? All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. You see, they didn't write us from their trip. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr. -and Mrs. Ballen. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] B-a-l-l-e-n--Sam Ballen? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Sam Ballen is a friend of theirs? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was -a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to -know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every -day in Rogatz' office. - -Mr. JENNER. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is -that correct? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration -of George--which I can't share too well. I think George is a very -interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him--taking, of course, 30 -or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always -interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, -always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a -certain talent of observation. - -You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has -it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a -few pages from that book. - -Mr. DAVIS. Is that George Bouhe? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually -dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. And he left Dallas for the Haiti assignment when? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, somewhere in the spring last year. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you -anything? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he showed us a newspaper again. - -Mr. JENNER. What newspaper? - -Mr. VOSHININ. From Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. And to what effect was the article in the paper? - -Mr. VOSHININ. It was more than a page. - -Mr. JENNER. More than a page? - -Mr. VOSHININ. It may--it was more than a page and it was the official -newspaper of the Government of Haiti--which was a contract between the -Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.--not George -De Mohrenschildt himself--to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the -sum of--I don't remember exactly--about $300,000; in which it said that -Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a -magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals--oil and other -minerals. - -Mr. JENNER. In Haiti? - -Mr. VOSHININ. For the country of Haiti--and I think the contract is for -2 years. - -I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody--Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt--in which it was said that a contract was signed between -our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt -is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with -his wonderful wife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more -words written about how wonderful she was--so she told--showed it to -everybody. Well, that's only human--"They say I'm a wonderful woman!" - -Mr. JENNER. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De -Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. While they were here in Dallas before they left for Haiti? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It -was on a short trip to sign the contract. - -Mr. JENNER. They took at least one or more short trips to Haiti---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Until they had these contracts signed? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And then they left permanently for 2 years? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was in the spring of 1963, that they left? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you -saw the newspaper account---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Printed in the Haiti paper? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--in French. - -Mr. JENNER. In French? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've -been talking about, saw? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well--after they left, that's it. - -Mr. JENNER. That's it. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card -from them and the Christmas greeting--that was all. - -Mr. JENNER. That's about all? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's about all. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United -States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by -them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their -meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, this was before that trip. - -Mr. JENNER. It was? Tell us about that, please. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot--they -made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip. - -Mr. JENNER. That was by more conventional means of transportation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't -know. I think they mostly traveled by car. - -I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and -then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas. - -And we heard--I don't know from whom we heard--that they met Mikoyan. I -imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think--I imagine so. But then -I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't like the fact that they had met Mikoyan? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan--being a top Communist--Mr. -Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So, -whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with -Mikoyan? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about? -And she told me that it was just meant as a joke--namely that at that -time there was a Soviet exhibition of some kind---- - -Mr. JENNER. In Mexico City. - -Mr. VOSHININ. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present -there. And one day--and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by -Mexican security and Soviet security--and it was one moment he was -televised--you know, when he was televised--she just jumped out of the -crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr. -Mikoyan. What are you doing?" - -And she said, "He was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps I'll kill -him." - -But, so, he said, "Who are you?" - -And she said, "I'm a Russian living in America." - -And he asked, "What you want?" - -And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave--and -she left. - -So, she says that's all that it was--she said. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the -thing is about. - -Mr. JENNER. You wanted to know? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wanted to know from her--because if she would go, -you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk -with her at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. But a joke--well De Mohrenschildt and his wife--they are -peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they unconventional people? - -Mr. VOSHININ. They are the most unconventional people I ever have seen. - -Mr. JENNER. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and -things they do? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, -a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, -trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And -he goes out very often without a tie or open breast--completely open -breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state--and without -shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see -him perfectly dressed. - -Mr. JENNER. He's unpredictable? - -Mr. VOSHININ. He is absolutely unpredictable--and I think even he knows -he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to -whom he went. My wife told me about that. - -Mr. JENNER. From all this, do you have an impression of the De -Mohrenschildts--either one of them--as to their possible connection -with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think -they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you -think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality? - -Mr. VOSHININ. It may be; it may not be. I'm not--you know, now all of -us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the -other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times. - -Mr. JENNER. You're rationalizing at the moment? - -Mr. VOSHININ. We are rationalizing--all of us--at that moment. Of -course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other. - -I can tell you what she told us. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. She told us that her first husband was a former Communist. - -Mr. JENNER. Her first husband was the---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Bogoiavlensky. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Who is now in a mental institution in California? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that he was a Communist? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; in his young days. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, when you say "Communist"--an active member of the -Communist Party? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it -was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. But of some kind--I don't know what the official name -of the organization may be--but it was some kind of Communist Youth -Organization. - -So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and -they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of -whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said -that it's her influence was to break up--that he break up all his ties -with the Communists. And come to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. That was her desire? - -Mr. VOSHININ. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what -her first husband did--that they broke off with the Communists and -come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my -husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party." - -That's her story. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese -Communist regime--because she was saying that they do a lot of good -developing her beloved native country. - -Mr. JENNER. China? - -Mr. VOSHININ. China. - -When she said--mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure -Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that." - -On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should -not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda--because they shot my -father." - -That's what she said. - -But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for -China or not was, you know, coming back and back. - -Mr. JENNER. Repeated? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife -and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, -you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again -somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife -and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject? - -Mr. VOSHININ. On this subject. - -But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that -they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like--she didn't like -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt didn't like that. - -She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian -music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even -anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I -don't know what. - -And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the -world government." She was very much for the world government, you -know, and things like that--international institutions and--uh; but, -on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the -wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"--she -would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor -father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, -what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," -and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my -father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective." - -Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with -women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will -probably tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did you become acquainted at any time---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. May I say something in addition? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Because that's what I said about her. - -What his concern--I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian -Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there -and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful -things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I -tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before -and there was nothing just to save it from. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very -enthusiastic and--about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him -they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before--and -that Communists did not build them--but he would somehow always, was -always enthusiastic about that. - -Mr. JENNER. About Yugoslavia? - -Mr. VOSHININ. About Yugoslavia and the Yugoslavia regime. - -Mr. JENNER. And its regime as well? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Its regime as well. That's true. - -About China, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk. - -So, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people. - -Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts are leftists? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the -other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat. - -Mr. JENNER. He had never voted for a Democrat? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican--and -they argued between themselves the whole time. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among -themselves--because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes -tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective. - -Mr. JENNER. Induce her to be a little more objective? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she was always bitterly to the left. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet either Lee or Marina Oswald? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; thank God! - -Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when you heard about Lee or Marina Oswald? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us the circumstances. - -Mr. VOSHININ. I read in the newspaper, Dallas Herald, about them. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short -article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally -came back with a Russian wife. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in June of 1962--just to orient you. You saw that -item in the newspaper? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the -people you've told us about? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard--we -visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? - -Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. An attorney in Fort Worth? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you -know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet -Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant -and bitter fellow--and they wouldn't like to see him again--something -like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to -meet them either, you know--and especially, you know, you don't like -any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" -people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum--as -he was described to us. He--Oswald. - -So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other -prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as -our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just -very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we -really need something, you know, an address or some information of that -kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that--better than -bringing to us anybody. - -But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and -the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and -young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has -a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on--they -don't have a penny and nobody gives them a job, and things like that. -And "would you like to meet them?" - -Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from -Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet -him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind -of people." - -So, I said that very insistently--so the De Mohrenschildts knew better -than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have -happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There -was always a possibility of that kind. But, thank God---- - -Mr. JENNER. But it never happened? - -Mr. VOSHININ. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them -from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression, did you not--or did you--that the -De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to -assist them? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was--only one time he was very bitter about -Oswald when he beat up his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he -said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he -is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't -just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You -always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened." - -I understand that she liked Lee much more than he did. - -Mr. JENNER. That Mrs. De Mohrenschildt liked Lee much more than George -did? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -This fellow De Mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke -arguments? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; he liked that. Yes; sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe him physically. Is he a handsome man? A big man? -Athletic? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis -player--always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; -and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And -he devoted always a lot of time to sports---- - -Mr. JENNER. And was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. And she tried to do it, too. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. What else can I tell you? - -Well, I know that he--the way he talks, you know, he talks for and -against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the -Bohemian Club? - -Mr. JENNER. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was -argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any -argument? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever -anybody would say. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and I think he enjoyed it. - -Mr. JENNER. He was extreme in his argumentation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was -some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he -made a lecture in the Bohemian Club. - -The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people--Dallasites--who like -to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably -who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], -Bill Hudson--I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you a member of the Bohemian Club? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the -Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture. - -Mr. JENNER. You were present on that occasion? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I was present on that occasion. - -And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army. -That was an army composed of Russian--Soviet Russian prisoners of war -who wanted to fight the Communists. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the name of this army? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Vlassov [spelling] V-l-a-s-s-o-v. - -And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected -a lot of praise for such people like Himmler. - -Mr. JENNER. Heinrich Himmler? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the -conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all." - -You know, that's typically George. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he -was just attempting to provoke shock? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially -there were, at least, three Jewish people there present--Sam Ballen and -Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't--was, became red, -terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know, -would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face -of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what -effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev -was terribly bitter--and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to -drink vodka the whole night. So, well--that's the type of person you -have. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is -about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any -event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought -out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in -its investigation? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state it, please? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did -not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better -than I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is that? - -Mr. VOSHININ. For example, Mr. Basil Zavoico. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now give us that full name and spell it, please? - -Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l--that's the first name. Second is -Z-a-v-o-i-c-o--or k-o--I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and -he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please? - -Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico -because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife -we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows -George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even -warned us against him. - -Mr. JENNER. Warned you against De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt," -he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks -so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is." - -And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we -came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your -interest. - -I don't know whether you questioned another person--it's Mr. Paul -Raigorodsky. - -Mr. JENNER. You've mentioned him before--at the first of this -deposition? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian -immigrant that--whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely -everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the -Stoneleigh Hotel--and still living there. - -Mr. JENNER. He is? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only -occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] G-r-a-f-f? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff--who worked for George as a -secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still -was, one part of the time, maintaining his office in the Republic -Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows -a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked -there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs. -Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them -and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had -written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has -seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to -sell. - -Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie -who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie. - -Mr. JENNER. Are they residents of Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now -living in Birmingham--you know, near Detroit. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter -attended school in Birmingham. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was -here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank--and -that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his -secretary--part-time, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Where do Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie live? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie on Hanover. - -Mr. JENNER. Hanover Street? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Hanover Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; they are Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. They are? - -Mr. VOSHININ. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent--but his -wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about -the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, -and all that. - -Mr. JENNER. They may know something about the Oswalds, too? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. I don't know one way or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. But they moved in this circle that you've described? - -Mr. VOSHININ. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which -always strikes me peculiar--I just talked last night with my wife about -that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to -Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I -have to go to Houston on business." And he would say--of course, you -don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his -business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody, -of course, asked him. - -And he would say, "You know, I have to go--you know, all my business -goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you -know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington--and here -he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or -5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife -heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business -there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in -foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even -before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once -talking this with my wife and wondering--what in the hell is he doing -in Houston? - -You don't get foreign assignments through Houston--not that we know -about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never -mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can -give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know--may not -know but may know--who knows something because Professor Jitkoff---- - -Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please. - -Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. - -Mr. JENNER. And at what institution is he a professor? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Rice Institute. The head of the department of the Rice -Institute. - -Mr. JENNER. What department? - -Mr. VOSHININ. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De -Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston--I -know, that, too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very -respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As -anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times -that George and Jeanne dropped in--which is not her name. Her name is -Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see. - -But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston. -There is a vague possibility of that--because that always sounded -peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they -live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e--in Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we can reach him if he is a professor at Rice -Institute. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course, -before we ever came here. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else occur to you? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her -fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet -consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to -them--but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are -not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City. -So, there is a slight possibility--but this is just speculation on my -part--that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also -to sell them some fashions--though I don't know, but this is possible, -you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know, -wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't want any part of them at all? - -Mr. VOSHININ. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you -know, is going there to buy dictionaries--you know, and things like -that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New -York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you -know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you -know. - -Mr. JENNER. Of going directly? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Of going directly to deal with all of them, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the -Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to the -time---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Up to their departure. That's right. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time the De Mohrenschildts left for Haiti? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, -of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips--a trip -every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time -they left, and even might have been prior to 1962? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, yeah, they may; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the -fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston? - -Mr. VOSHININ. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De -Mohrenschildts became a nuisance. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And that was when? - -Mr. VOSHININ. And then we started recollecting about the De -Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So, -that probably was late 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. VOSHININ. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to -visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were -being made in September of 1963? - -Mr. VOSHININ. In September of 1963, they were not here. - -Mr. JENNER. So, they weren't here then? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; they left--I don't know which month they left for -Haiti--but I think they left way before September. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you know whether either of the De -Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the -spring of 1963? - -Mr. VOSHININ. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether they have or haven't been? - -Mr. VOSHININ. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And -I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they -are--Kirken. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Or whatever he calls himself--that's Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken. -K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call him _Kirten_ [phonetic]. - -Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] K-a-r-t-o-n? - -Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n--or o-n--I don't know. They -dropped in when they came from Haiti. - -Mr. JENNER. They were here recently? - -Mr. VOSHININ. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and -they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they -left--they couldn't stand that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George -De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was -responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, I heard that story; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From whom did you hear it? And give us your recollection of -it. - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think that--uh--well, I heard it from my wife, to tell -the truth. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll talk to her about that. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens, -maybe--or maybe from the children. - -I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving -ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving -ridiculously--he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to -shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very -unpleasant scenes." - -Mr. JENNER. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements -by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually -about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he -became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand -it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. They are okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you -would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or -pertinent? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, not that I know at the present time, but---- - -Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week -and the week afterwards---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Could you give me a telephone or anything? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and -somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or -some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney, -Mr. Sanders--Barefoot Sanders---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I know. - -Mr. JENNER. And he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of -us. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Okay. Probably my wife will recollect a lot of things. - -Mr. JENNER. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there -anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out -that you think ought to be on the record? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Of what, for example? - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask -you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is -making? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Not that I know, unless you recall something. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything which was stated by you---- - -Mr. VOSHININ. You know De Mohrenschildt has here a brother? - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. His brother--he's a professor, according to your -information where? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Dartmouth. - -Mr. JENNER. At Dartmouth College? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I think he's perfectly okay--a very serious person. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, you know his three wives--his former wives? - -Mr. JENNER. I've asked you about that. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, his first wife, I think lives in Paris. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. VOSHININ. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist -of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth -wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time -about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the -judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know. You ask--perhaps you have---- - -Mr. JENNER. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions -you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, -I'll let you know. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just -across the street you can call me any time. - -Mr. JENNER. What we usually do is to have the Secret Service call you. - -Mr. VOSHININ. They're in the same building--two floors higher than me. -They can just call me up two stories up. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We'll close this deposition now. - -You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's -typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read -it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to -modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This -young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this -perhaps written up during the course of the next week. - -If you will call in--and also talk to Mr. Sanders--he will know when, -and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for -examination. - -Mr. VOSHININ. Can I take it home and read it or do I have to come here? - -Mr. JENNER. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the -right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at -whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy. - -Mr. VOSHININ. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures -and for my records to have at home. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You make arrangements with this young lady. - -Mr. VOSHININ. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay--and if -there is any way I can help, please--I'd just tell everything I know -without any hesitation. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I tried to pick your brain for everything I could -think of. - -Mr. DAVIS. We do appreciate it--and thank you, sir. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. - -Page 48: "Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in" did not -show "Evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected -here. - -Page 156: "When did teach there?" probably is missing "you". - -Page 214: "Executive Order No. 1130" should be "11130". - -Page 223: "He likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in -italics. - -Page 231: "Approximately hold old" should be "how". - -Page 308: "Section 11, page 8" may be misprint for "Section II, page 8" - -Page 330: "Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner" was misprinted as "Mrs. -BATES. I am Albert E. Jenner" with "BATES" in small-caps, followed by a -period, indicating that Mrs. Bates was the speaker. Changed here. - -Page 333: "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe -before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin. - -Page 363: "special train from" probably should be "training". - -Page 369: "It took 2 years of something" was printed that way. - -Page 390: "As far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas". - -Page 427: "in Varna Pleven" is missing a comma after "Varna". - -Page 458: "French woman, And he met her" was printed that way. - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings -Vol. VIII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V8 *** - -***** This file should be named 44008.txt or 44008.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44008/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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